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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Here is an explanation step by step.
My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-3 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .3 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.
I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.
1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.
2. minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.
3. 35P chrono is used.
4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.
5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.
6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers(4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.
7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.
Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.
8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find 2 mabye three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.
I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade mic, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others) etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until is see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.
9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.
10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.
11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.
I have proven this is repeatable and capable of taking a new rifle to winning in competition is under 50 rds fired. Very nice writeup. I appreciate folks taking the time as I may be able to use info, you never know when its time to tweak your method. FWIW, not that any one on this thread cares, but I did a similar run once... new barrel, brand new AR. Seating depth limited by mag length except for 600 yard stuff. Ran 10 shots, picked middle of cluster. Shot the rifle 3 times at 200 for a rough zero. Shot a 50 shot match Saturday. Went to a leg match Sunday and tied the range record for service rifle and tied the 600 yard record for service rifle. One of a couple of 495s in legs shot that year in the whole US. Like I said, not that it'll mean anything to lots of folks, but the method works. And works well for those in a hurry to start, and well enough to win some fairly serious matches. And the worst of it all.... All five 9s I shot, were all me....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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DC223, how do you go about working up your loads? I've asked him repeatedly and can't get an answer The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found. Big Stick, aka boxer, has posted a pic heavy explanation in several threads on several different sites, most recently this site. Start at the start.... That's "asrealasitgets" (hint)
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Campfire Tracker
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You don't seem to cipher. DC223, how do you go about working up your loads? I've asked him repeatedly and can't get an answer The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
That's not true. I explained my method as well. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
That's not true. I explained my method as well. Travis Yes you did but Gibby really got real with it by eliminating a TON of unnecessary BS that you threw in there to avoid a possible lawsuit with 'Flave Precision. I sniffed that out early in your post and realized it couldn't be seriously considered. 
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Does it matter how much powder you put in the case? ![[Linked Image]](http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx210/16bore/108_120_R15_zps1fc018c3.jpg) Obviously these needed more....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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DC223, how do you go about working up your loads? I've asked him repeatedly and can't get an answer The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found. My version of KFPRO: The first thing I do is grab a sized case and a bullet of choice, seat the bullet long, color the ogive with a sharpie, and chamber. Inspect the bullet for rifling marks, re-colour, seat deeper as required, and repeat until the length of the rifling engraving is the same as the width. Kiss complete. Next I consult some reloading manuals and QL, and pick a suitable powder for the task at hand, then determine what the max velocity is that I should see with my rifle, barrel length, and chosen components. I note what charge is likely to give me that velocity, based on multiple sources, and load up about 10 rounds with a ~10% charge increase with each round, starting a few grains below where I think I'll get max velocity, and ending a couple grains above. Then I fire these over the chrono, stopping either when I hit the expected velocity, or when I see multiple/obvious traditional pressure signs, whichever comes first. Then once I know roughly where my powder charge is going to be, I load up 4 rounds at that charge and shoot them over the chrono. This way I can get a semi-meaningful average velocity reading from the chrono, to confirm target velocity. Then I rock on....  If that fails to perform the way I expect (rare), then I investigate a couple of charge increments below the max load I've been testing. I have also seen a gain in performance on occasion from doing the same thing with seating depth, but kissing the lands is a good place to start, since you can always back off without raising pressure, if needed for best accuracy. As an aside, I think it's worth pointing out that there is a difference between finding an accurate load, and finding a robust load that is tolerant to variation (weather, powder charge, powder lot variation, throat erosion, etc). The Audette method, OCW method, etc, are meant to find a load that is robust and tolerant to minor changes in load or conditions. Finding an accurate load is mechanically favoured by starting the bullet in contact with the rifling, and burning the powder charge at max pressure, which typically causes modern, double-based powders to burn more completely and consistently than when burned at lighter charges and lower pressures. KFPRO is really about giving your load mechanical and physical advantages from the get go. If I'm trying to find a robust load, then I prefer increasing powder charge in 10% increments and firing at 200-300 yards, round-robin style with 5 shot groups. Then take the average POI of each group, and identify which loads have roughly the same POI. Then I take the middle load and work on seating depth until I have the performance I need. I rarely need to shy away from the kiss at this stage. After testing the load at various ranges out to 1000 or beyond, depending on the rifle and its intended use, I call it good. The vast majority of the time this is all over and done with within 20-40 rounds, sometimes less, rarely more.
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Campfire Tracker
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I think Jordan's method for KFPRO is basically what has been mentioned by others, but in more detail. Seems like a solid post describing his methods.
A few comments on his KFPRO and the ladder...
The appeal of the ladder method appears to be the idea that you don't need to think. Just start shooting and the final load will be somewhere in one of the "nodes" that appears. The method "shows" you where to focus.
With the KFPRO method, the user already knows where he wants to start. Somewhere near max pressure. I suspect that many if not most handloaders already have a target velocity in mind, as Jordan mentioned. Nodes below this target velocity are not of interest to many. So the ladderer and KFPRO could be fine-tuning in the same exact area, but got there by different routes. The ladderer is searching for the nodes and then chooses one of them, while the KFPRO guy is going direct... to his predetermined velocity, which is some step down from max pressure.
Again, the KFPRO guy finds pressure (or velocity) and then fine tunes at some level below max pressure. He knows the upper limit, and shoots multi-shot groups below max. If accuracy is not there, he may go down a step. Probably not too far though. More than likely there is a small velocity window (say 100 fps) that he wants his final load to be within before changing a component.
So in my view, the final velocity window really isn't a huge area. Say the window is 100 fps, and the target velocity for the final load is 2950fps. That means we are looking at charges that produce velocities between 2900-3000fps. If the KFPRO dude doesn't get what he wants here, he can't go up. He's already working in a safe area some step below max pressure. He could go down, but I don't think many people want their 162gr AMAX going 2800 fps when they were looking for 2950 fps. Maybe I am wrong on that one though.
The ladderer works up and looks for nodes. The problem I see is that single samples are used for each charge weight. I don't think anyone here can argue the fact that a couple of shots could be pulled and make a random group "look" like a node. False positive? Or to think of it in another way... what competitions are done with single shot groups? Silly-wet? If single samples are valid, why don't we use them more often in R&D?
I recall Rost asking about 0.1gr increments for the ladder. I think this is interesting, not from a charge weight viewpoint, but simply a greater sample size. Not to pick on Rost, but I also recall him using the ladder, then fine-tuning with more mini-ladders, 10-shot groups, or prolonged shooting (over several weeks I think). So although ladderers say that the method works with single samples, at some point the sample size must be increased.
Now let's say that the ladder is done with a couple shots pulled in the node closest to max pressure/velocity. In other words, the node was not revealed. He might be missing a fast & accurate load due to a couple pulled shots, no? He doesn't even look here because the ladder didn't "show" a node even though it was there. False negative? I have a hard time believing that an entire ladder could be done without a single shooter error. But isn't that what is needed if there is only one shot for each charge... absolutely error free shooting? Who can do that, besides Flave?
This leads to Jordan's Robust method. He is not going direct like his KFPRO, BUT at least he's using a 5-shot sample for each charge. Statistically significant? Probably not, but I don't think anyone could argue that its not better than a single sample. The only issue I see with any round-robin is the multiple targets, if that is the method used. I think one of the earlier links posted used a round-robin but only on one target (Baney method?) which helps minimize one variable.
Jason
Last edited by 4th_point; 03/12/14.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Bounty Hunter, thanks for the clear and concise description of your method. I will "borrow" some of it as I get ready to work up several rifles.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
That's not true. I explained my method as well. Travis Yes you did but Gibby really got real with it by eliminating a TON of unnecessary BS that you threw in there to avoid a possible lawsuit with 'Flave Precision. I sniffed that out early in your post and realized it couldn't be seriously considered. People think I'm joking and I'm not. Seat as far out as I can (If I can kiss the lands I do but not all mag confines are going to allow for that) and I work up based on the chronograph readings to make sure I'm not selling myself short. I have no desire to turn my 22-250 into a .222. That's it. Go shoot. I will say I rarely shoot past 1,000yds. But I'm far more prone to start ripping a rifle apart if it isn't grouping the way I expect it to, as opposed to going back to the load bench. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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People think I'm joking and I'm not.
I'm a believer, Dave. See you in church. Slave
Have Dog
Will Travel
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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People think I'm joking and I'm not.
I'm a believer, Dave. See you in church. Slave I'll be in the back pew. I like to watch all those dumb assess put money in the plate before it gets to me. One born every minute? More like every three seconds. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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'menefee,
The beauty of a kiss,is that it's a known quantity and both the Start and Finish Line.
Hint.
'Hunter,
You are in so [bleep] far over your pointy head,that it's a [bleep] shame you don't have the 17 IQ points requisite,to savvy. Congratulations?!?
Who chews your food for you and dresses you in the mornings? You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Wow +P+!
Gibby,
In fairness,I remain a fan of compressed loads and their propensity to bolster nice ES/SD constants.
Hint.
'223,
Only fair to let them "educated" welllll beyond their intelligence,extoll their "findings". Funny schit!
Impressive,that there are this many stupid [bleep],in one herd.
Laffin'!
rost',
Funny part is,in another 20yrs you'll come clean on the newfound "surprise",that you were a clueless dumbfhukk 20yrs ago.
Sweetie,the ONLY one "surprised"...will be you. Congratulations?!?
Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always gonna be better served by simply shutting the [bleep] up and taking notes. Here's to the decades long run,of you being too [bleep] stupid to even do that.
Laffin!
Please consider beating the drum longer/louder on your proposed Imagination And Pretend Board. Be funny to have you Window Lickers in one pile,perpetually doing your best to outdumbfhukk one another,with your drooling dumbfhukktitude.
Hilarious schit...thanks for doing your best!
Rman,
I do believe you are onto sumptin'...with "kiss,find pressure and rock on".
Personally,I see the thrust bein' rather tough on ladders. Prolly 'cause I shoot more than a smidge.
Laffin'!
'lia,
I enjoy that you don't have to Pretend to be too [bleep] Stupid,to savvy: kiss,find pressure and rocking on.
Perhaps consider stomping your itty-bitty feet and holding your breath,during the next Hissy Fit as you scream yet again "I don't care...I don't care". Jeezus [bleep],you poor poor stupid [bleep] relish in your incredible Dumbfhukktitude.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'mountain,
I never ain't not painted a crystalline picture,thus the humor of The Paper Hat Brigade's perpetual Whining,while they do their "best".
FUNNY schit!
'flave,
I've seen me take a new rifle and gun the first 10 or 15 pokes literally from the hip,in a pressure finding excersize,conjoined with laying moly down the spout. That in mebbe a 1.5gr swing at most,because I've a coupla/few hundred barrels of familiarity to reflect upon.
'Course such simplicity,will REALLY [bleep] with Window Lickers and their ladders.
Just sayin'.(grin)
Not that this schit and these incredibly srtupid [bleep] doing their best,ain't a [bleep] hoot.
Laffin'!
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Campfire Regular
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Now Boxer you know you are not allowed to interrupt the adults when we are talking.
Did you mess your diaper again? Is that why you are upset?
Go back to your room and play "lookin in the mirror at me" like you always do and we will let you know when you can come out.
We have to be kind to one of "Jerry's Kids".
Last edited by BountyHunter; 03/13/14.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The appeal of the ladder method appears to be the idea that you don't need to think. Just start shooting and the final load will be somewhere in one of the
Now let's say that the ladder is done with a couple shots pulled in the node closest to max pressure/velocity. In other words, the node was not revealed. He might be missing a fast & accurate load due to a couple pulled shots, no? He doesn't even look here because the ladder didn't "show" a node even though it was there. False negative? I have a hard time believing that an entire ladder could be done without a single shooter error. But isn't that what is needed if there is only one shot for each charge... absolutely error free shooting? Who can do that, besides Flave?
Even if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge...
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Campfire Regular
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[quote=Jordan SmithEven if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge... [/quote]
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Posts: 57,494 |
Interesting now that we see some of the Kiss methods.
Very similar to what folks do with Audette.
About the only thing different is running to max and assuming its the best load you'll get accuracy wise.
And thats why I wanted someone to explain what was going on.
If Stick posted it somewhere earlier, then it was pretty easy to reference that post. ANd would have been appreciated.
FWIW I have not always found max pressure is best accuracy. Nor has engaged either, but with N500 powders it has been max pressure is almost alwyas best accuracy.
And then if we look at it a bit more, regardless of if you agree or not, everything so far posted is a form of Audettes theory in one way or another. But if you don't like calling it that or a ladder we dont' really care what you call it.
And finally its nice to have someone admit that not everyone chases the same thing. Some will accept less accuracy for more speed. Some need more accuracy, and can accept some loss of very top end speed.
Some want only the very best accuracy.
Jason, you are very right, anyone would be a fool to just blindly trust the first result from a ladder. But instead of shooting 10 groups of 5 shots, I"ve only shot 10 shots and done it very quickly. From there I have an area to work with. And confirmation for me takes quite a bit of shooting before I'm comfortable risking taking it to try to win an important match or take a long shot at game. Just so I know that yes its a good load, but whats the WORST it will do on any given day.
I don't think I've ever done 0.1 increments on a ladder, but I have done those in final load testing.
Interestingly enough I still stand by the fact you can use a chrono for guidance, but teh true test for max velocity is pressure. Every setup can have its own quirks. We proved that a long time ago playing with a particular bullet. And many different brands of barrels with the same chamber. Then you can coat or not coat both barrel and bullets... all of it can make a difference.
You have to trust pressure signs and that can even vary with hardness of brass. FC in 223 is a PRIME example of brass blowing primer pockets out well before you'd reach what you'd think would be even close to a hot load speed wise.
I'd MUCH prefer to chase pressure with an actual pressure gauge setup on each barrel, but I have not afforded the money or time to do that, though I do have a friend that did some testing for me because he was concerned on pressure on a short range load I was playing with that the speed could not be safe pressure. And it actually played out about where I thought it would from what I saw on brass and measured RE case head expansion.
Of course as I"ve noted before, I've taken one AR15, ran a quick audette in it, ( and yes, I did not note on my post RE how I do it, that I am starting with a well educated guess from research or prior knowledge before I even start an audette) grabbed the middle of a top end cluster and have never even done any more. It gives enough speed, has never shot worse than 3/4 moa and genearlly around .5/.6 moa, and for a 200-300 yard deer rifle, its all I'll ever need.
I even agree with Travis to an extent... typically if the gun doesn't shoot with proven combo, then it generally isn't going to shoot... I"ve proven that a few times running more Audette with differing combos searching... and if I did find something... then it kinda makes me spooky realizing I may have found the answer but that answer is very narrow.
We had one Krieger once... for some reason I finally got it to shoot where I wanted with one of the worst primers I'd ever tried. Rem 6.5s.
I try to keep on hand a 1000 or so of every primer made in case I run into an issue where I'm close, but not quite where I want to be. I"ve seen primers make a big difference, but had never seen anything good out of the 6.5s in a 223 case... ok, but not good. But that one tube... for some reason, unexplained to me, it worked best.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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[quote=Jordan SmithEven if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge... 1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition 2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion [/quote] I would shoot them all at night, save for the reason the Audette is the first rounds through the barrel and I want to see what the Chrono is saying too.... Maybe I should invest in the newest ones that go by sound only IIRC... then I could shoot em all at night.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Tracker
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1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Didn't realize the 'VA' behind Fredericksburg in your handle.... meant 'Vacuum' 99 out of 100 people can't shoot well enough to create a ladder that's even relevant, particularly at six bills... including me. I'm largely in the KFPRO camp..... with a heavy emphasis on the Rocking On, which seems the forgotten proponent of this epic argument.
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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Campfire Tracker
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1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Why is it that the prevailing thought seems to be that barrel harmonics only affect the vertical, not the horizontal? Do barrels not oscillate in both axis? Now, I'm one of those that has found some merit in a ladder test, depending on my goals, but my own results have shown me that it is wrong to discount horizontal dispersion. Instead, when looking for a node, I go for the range of charges that gives the smallest dispersion in both the vertical and horizontal. I have tried it both ways, looking for the least vertical only and picking the the smallest group out of the range of charges, and have enjoyed better results when picking the node that has both the least vertical and horizontal dispersion. Barrels simply do not oscillate in only the vertical axis, but rather in both. Much of the bickering back and forth between methods has to do with what the desired outcome is. If it is to find the best load that rifle is going to shoot, especially with thrown charges, the ladder has merit. If the desired outcome is to get results good enough to hit the size target you are shooting at, at the ranges you shoot at, then the KFPRO method will often provide results that are plenty good enough. That's another thing I haven't seen mentioned. Wasn't one of the primary purposes of the Audette method to find a range of charges where the rifle shot well so as to minimize the effect of variances in thrown charges? John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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