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Ah... good, the popcorn is out.
I want to clarify that I think some reader's of the Madis books made the erroneous assumption that all rifles pictured were correct. Many collectors laid out their collections for George to photograph. This does not mean he performed the type evaluation he became known for on each rifle he photographed. And as stated, he was a nice fellow and for those that laid out their collections for him to photograph, I don't think he saw it as his role, or he had the inclination to comment negatively on those pieces he knew or suspected to not be 100% correct.
My beef is with those individuals who have come into possession of one of the rifles pictured and the conclusions they have drawn.
Personally, I am progressively thinking, lower dollar "character" pieces are the way to go. With the ever-growing fakery (including faked documentation), I am progressively more suspicious. There's a lot of good pieces out there and the majority of these are safely tucked away in collections. It's the stuff floating in circulation that carries the highest risk of burning someone. The mindset of, "caveat emptor" becomes more important with each passing day. So, who is or are the "Experts" out there today whose word is the gospel if a particular Winchester is or is not a fake. Who are the expert appraisers for even the common calibers? Seems like true "collectable" examples are the rare exception and where is the forgery/restoration line drawn even with the common calibers? Seems like there is room for Winchester collectors as long as they stay away from the collectables. Which by the way, is how I think most viewed this forum from the beginning.
Last edited by battue; 05/11/14.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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In my opinion we are all students. No one knows so much that there is nothing new for them to learn. However, there are levels of knowledge. Beginning students to advanced students. When it comes to pre-64 M70's, I've no doubt B.T.Bob can run rings around me as far as knowledge. I've always had some interest in them but never collected them as the older stuff interests me more. Heck, a good share of the pre-64 M70's were made after I was born I remember when everything was, "pre-64."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"Students", is exactly right. We may not all have the same teachers either. The outlets may be very similar and information coinciding. This is where we may need to put our heads together and cross check our findings. This is something I enjoy about coming here. One thing I've personally seen is there are misnomers regarding the pre 64 model 70 just about everywhere you look. Here's an article that was written in the Sept. 1985 issue of guns and ammo. The writers of the article were Garry James and Roger Renner. Tell me this information wasn't misguided....: As always, when being a good student, you have to be mindful of who our teachers are and how credible (or not) they are.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Randy Shuman is certainly in the top 3 in my book of people I trust implicitly when buying a Winchester....it's like buying jewelry. If you don't know what you're doing you better trust the guy you're doing business with...
I am not going to name those I do not buy from....many are plastered all over the Internet guns for sale sites....
Life's too short to smoke cheap cigars....
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Bob - that's good to know about Randy. I know he has had a lot of extremely rare Winchesters over the years and I've never known whether he was credible or not. Lots of guys can write appealing ads but that doesn't mean a thing. The list of dealers to not buy from is a long one.
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I'm going to say what a lot of other members here are thinking....no true M70 enthusiast has any interest in guns that have been refinished, re-chambered, re-barreled or in any way been rendered non-original...
Modified guns are Winchester only by virtue that at one time they were original specimens...I think the original intent of this forum was to discuss/showcase factory-correct specimens and posters ought to refrain from putting up instances of what, in many cases, are junked-up examples of rifles. A worn original gun is far more interesting than a bubba'd up, refinished example, IMO, especially if in a rare cartridge...
I welcome your opinion but couldn't disagree more. Assuming original intent of the forum well just makes an "@$$" out of you. Also assuming the thoughts of members secures your position there. I personally welcome all Winchester collectors and enthusiast and their appreciation of the Winchester brand no matter what form it takes. For the new guys, and I'm one of them, a "pure" Pre-64 is out of most budgets. But you learn by doing, and so for the time being, it's playing with the Pre-64s that the "true" collectors don't want. So, how does the work of shops like Doug Turnbull's fit into the Winchester community? Certainly not original, but produces very fine workmanship in the end product.
Last edited by AH64guy; 05/12/14.
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waiting for opinions.
Last edited by deerstalker; 05/12/14.
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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I guess Turnbull has a market and is able to sell his stuff. To me, it darn expensive and the net result is you end up with something that isn't original. I would much prefer a weathered gun over something turned out by him. I'm not running the quality of his work down. Some say it is every bit as good as what the factory produced. If that is so, it still doesn't matter to me.
I'm sure many feel the same as me and many feel differently.
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I guess Turnbull has a market and is able to sell his stuff. To me, it darn expensive and the net result is you end up with something that isn't original. I would much prefer a weathered gun over something turned out by him. I'm not running the quality of his work down. Some say it is every bit as good as what the factory produced. If that is so, it still doesn't matter to me.
I'm sure many feel the same as me and many feel differently. I'm with you...
Life's too short to smoke cheap cigars....
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Battue, the Winchester rifle you mentioned from LBH, was it by chance a single shot?
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laissez les bons temps rouler
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Little big Horn: just registered. Been awhile, but I remember it as being a lever.
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I guess Turnbull has a market and is able to sell his stuff. To me, it darn expensive and the net result is you end up with something that isn't original. I would much prefer a weathered gun over something turned out by him. I'm not running the quality of his work down. Some say it is every bit as good as what the factory produced. If that is so, it still doesn't matter to me.
I'm sure many feel the same as me and many feel differently. Turnbull produced weapons ,for me are like tiffany creations. nice to look at but of no real practical use. give me a 1886 Winchester light weight take down in 45-70 and I get glassy eyed. even if it has brush marks and faded finish. it is still class. jm2centsw
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Fairly sure i read about in an NRA magazine.
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Turnbull produced weapons ,for me are like tiffany creations. nice to look at but of no real practical use. give me a 1886 Winchester light weight take down in 45-70 and I get glassy eyed. even if it has brush marks and faded finish. it is still class. jm2centsw
I've seen a number of his pieces and I wouldn't care to own any of them. The color case is much too gaudy for my taste, and is unlike the original CC. The fit and finish on the wood is superb as you should expect for the prices being charged. But I, too, would much prefer an aged original to one of his artworks. yooper
Last edited by yooper35; 05/12/14.
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Turnbull produced weapons ,for me are like tiffany creations. nice to look at but of no real practical use. give me a 1886 Winchester light weight take down in 45-70 and I get glassy eyed. even if it has brush marks and faded finish. it is still class. jm2centsw Deerstalker - Do you mean one like this: It might have a bit more finish than you can tolerate? Also the special order special length magazine might throw you off too.
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Randy Shuman is at the top of my list when it comes to experience, knowledge and honesty regarding old model 70s. Almost all of his rifles are collectors with few shooters and he has large quantities of 70s: for example, my last list has 15 .375s. He told me once that he never lists a 70 as 100% and looking at his listings 99% is as high as he rates. He is the man I call when I have a question regarding old 70s. He told me he'll never use the internet to list his rifles: just old school. 40+ years of collecting and dealing with old 70s.
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Turnbull produced weapons ,for me are like tiffany creations. nice to look at but of no real practical use. give me a 1886 Winchester light weight take down in 45-70 and I get glassy eyed. even if it has brush marks and faded finish. it is still class. jm2centsw Deerstalker - Do you mean one like this: It might have a bit more finish than you can tolerate? Also the special order special length magazine might throw you off too. makes my sticker peck out!!!!!!!! and I'm a old guy.
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Randy Shuman is at the top of my list when it comes to experience, knowledge and honesty regarding old model 70s. Almost all of his rifles are collectors with few shooters and he has large quantities of 70s: for example, my last list has 15 .375s. He told me once that he never lists a 70 as 100% and looking at his listings 99% is as high as he rates. He is the man I call when I have a question regarding old 70s. He told me he'll never use the internet to list his rifles: just old school. 40+ years of collecting and dealing with old 70s. I've counted Randy as a good friend for many years...He is at the top of the list of sellers in every respect. He does not handle bad guns and knows 70s better than anyone else out there....
Life's too short to smoke cheap cigars....
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