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Re: What's wrong with church [Re: antlers] #9051161 07/25/14
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If you throw out one part, you may as well throw it all out...


Even the crazy parts about slaves, mixed fabrics, shellfish, and women? Really? Do tell us about your latest stoning.

Looks like another disingenuous and deceitful apologist to me.

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Re: What's wrong with church [Re: billhilly] #9051258 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by billhilly
Quote
If you throw out one part, you may as well throw it all out...

Even the crazy parts about slaves, mixed fabrics, shellfish, and women? Really? Do tell us about your latest stoning.
Looks like another disingenuous and deceitful apologist to me.

laffin'

Good point.


Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: antlers] #9051261 07/25/14
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antlers,

You say Jonah was not real. Jesus say he was and uses him to illustrate his death, burial, and resurection.

Matthew 12: 38-41

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, 'Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.' But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

You say Genesis 1 is allagorical. Consider this language expert.

Dr. Steven Boyd of The Master’s College conducted a statistical study on the historicity of Genesis 1:1–2:3 as a part of the RATE project. Since the RATE scientists based their thousands-of-years timescale on the Genesis account of Creation, it seemed appropriate to more firmly establish that this passage in Genesis should be taken literally. Dr. Boyd pointed out that there are three approaches typically taken by theologians to interpreting Genesis 1:1–2:3:
• Reading it as an extended poetic metaphor, in which the plain sense of the words does not correspond to reality.
• Reading it as a pre-scientific document that is filled with error.
• Reading it as a historical narrative that accurately portrays reality.

Unfortunately, the majority of preachers, teachers, and biblical scholars today believe that the Bible should be read and interpreted as poetic metaphor or error-filled narrative. Yet if the Bible is to be relied upon for truth, it is critical that option three—reading Genesis 1:1–2:3 as accurate historical narrative—be the correct approach.

Dr. Boyd’s statistical study concluded that Genesis 1:1–2:3 is indeed a narrative passage, not poetic, based on the relative frequency of the preterite verb form in the two types of passages. There is less than 1 chance in 10,000 that Genesis 1:1–2:3 is poetry. If Genesis is narrative, then it is not allegorical but historical, with the plain sense of the words corresponding to reality and the sequence of events corresponding to real time.

Combining the statistical study on Scripture and the evidence for accelerated decay justifies the conclusion that Scripture is reliable.



"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
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Re: What's wrong with church [Re: billhilly] #9051266 07/25/14
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I suppose you could study the various dispensations of God for yourself, instead of relying on others to spoon feed you knowledge.

Re: What's wrong with church [Re: billhilly] #9051284 07/25/14
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billhilly,

Quote
Even the crazy parts about slaves, mixed fabrics, shellfish, and women? Really? Do tell us about your latest stoning.

Looks like another disingenuous and deceitful apologist to me.


Instead of makng fun of Christian by using Jewish laws, you might do yourself a favor and read the rest of The Book. Let me help you with a few quotes. Christians are not subject to Moses' law.

"Therefore, my brothers, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him Who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7:4,6

"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4


"Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision,' performed in the flesh by human hands, that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the common-wealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our Peace, Who made both one, and broke down the dividing wall of the barrier, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments in ordinances, that in Himself He might create the two into one new man, establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the Cross, by it having put to death the enmity." Ephesians 2:11-16


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
IC-A

Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051294 07/25/14
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antlers Offline
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Originally Posted by Ringman
antlers,
You say Jonah was not real. Jesus say he was and uses him to illustrate his death, burial, and resurection.

Nope. I NEVER said "Jonah was not real."
This is just more of your intentional misrepresentation of the truth...continued deceit and disingenuousness on your part Ringman.

"Jesus...uses him to illustrate his death, burial, and resurection." Yep, that's allegorical.

Allegory - is a rhetorical device in which characters or events in a literary, visual, or musical art form represent or symbolize ideas and concepts. Allegory has been used widely throughout the histories of all forms of art; a major reason for this is its immense power to illustrate complex ideas and concepts in ways that are easily digestible and tangible to its viewers, readers, or listeners. An allegory conveys its hidden message through symbolic figures, actions, imagery, and/or events. Allegory is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric; a rhetorical allegory is a demonstrative form of representation conveying meaning other than the words that are spoken.


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Re: What's wrong with church [Re: BRISTECD] #9051317 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by BRISTECD
I suppose you could study the various dispensations of God for yourself, instead of relying on others to spoon feed you knowledge.

laffin'

billhilly made a valid point, you know it...as well as everyone who read it does, and you couldn't counter it...so you resorted to insults instead.

still laffin'

Tell us some more about morality and 'Christianity'...


Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051318 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
billhilly,

Quote
Even the crazy parts about slaves, mixed fabrics, shellfish, and women? Really? Do tell us about your latest stoning.

Looks like another disingenuous and deceitful apologist to me.


Instead of makng fun of Christian by using Jewish laws, you might do yourself a favor and read the rest of The Book. Let me help you with a few quotes. Christians are not subject to Moses' law.

"Therefore, my brothers, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him Who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7:4,6

"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4


"Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision,' performed in the flesh by human hands, that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the common-wealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our Peace, Who made both one, and broke down the dividing wall of the barrier, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments in ordinances, that in Himself He might create the two into one new man, establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the Cross, by it having put to death the enmity." Ephesians 2:11-16


Oh really? Seems Paul and Jesus disagree.

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Re: What's wrong with church [Re: BRISTECD] #9051321 07/25/14
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BRISTECD,

You would be surprised what fanatical Bible student I have been. I was a cutterhead builder for most of my working life. I worked in the wood industry sharpening knives for machines. Normally I worked alone in the grinding room. Over about three decades I wore out three cassette tape players listening to the New Testament. Just a few years ago my mind was still sharp enough if you read a chapter from the New Testament I could tell you which one it was. Often I could get it if you read only a verse.

At home I had a concordance, a couple sets of commentaries and at least four Greek language books as well as a very large Bible dictionary to help me. While my kids were growing up I got rid of the television and read to them in the evening. At the church where I attended during those years the pastor consulted me often about Scriptural subjects. I didn’t get spoon fed. I was the one doing the feeding.

Like Regan said, "It's not that they're ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so."


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: antlers] #9051324 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Ringman
antlers,
You say Jonah was not real. Jesus say he was and uses him to illustrate his death, burial, and resurection.

Nope. I NEVER said "Jonah was not real."
This is just more of your intentional misrepresentation of the truth...continued deceit and disingenuousness on your part Ringman.

"Jesus...uses him to illustrate his death, burial, and resurection." Yep, that's allegorical.

Allegory - is a rhetorical device in which characters or events in a literary, visual, or musical art form represent or symbolize ideas and concepts. Allegory has been used widely throughout the histories of all forms of art; a major reason for this is its immense power to illustrate complex ideas and concepts in ways that are easily digestible and tangible to its viewers, readers, or listeners. An allegory conveys its hidden message through symbolic figures, actions, imagery, and/or events. Allegory is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric; a rhetorical allegory is a demonstrative form of representation conveying meaning other than the words that are spoken.

Genre

The genre of Jonah is debated. The book has been read as an allegory, using fictional figures to symbolize some other reality. According to this interpretation, Jonah is a symbol of Israel in its refusal to carry out God’s mission to the nations. The primary argument against this view is that Jonah is clearly presented as a historical and not a fictional figure (see the specific historical and geographical details in 1:1–3; 3:2–10; 4:11; cf. also 2 Kings 14:25). Another proposal is that the book is a parable to teach believers not to be like Jonah. Like allegories, parables are also based on fictional and not historical characters. Parables, however, are typically simple tales that make a single point, whereas the book of Jonah is quite complex and teaches a multiplicity of themes.

The book of Jonah has all the marks of a prophetic narrative, like those about Elijah and Elisha found in 1 Kings, which set out to report actual historical events. The phrase that opens the book (“the word of the Lord came to”) is also at the beginning of the first two stories told about Elijah (1 Kings 17:2, 8) and is used in other prophetic narratives as well (e.g., 1 Sam. 15:10; 2 Sam. 7:4). Just as the Elijah and Elisha narratives contain extraordinary events, like ravens providing bread and meat for the prophet (1 Kings 17:6), so does the book of Jonah, as when the fish “provides transportation” for the prophet. In fact, the story of Jonah is so much like the stories about Elijah and Elisha that one would hardly think it odd if the story of Jonah were embedded in 2 Kings right after Jonah’s prophetic words about the expansion of the kingdom. The story of Jonah is thus presented as historical, like the other prophetic narratives.

There are additional arguments for the historical nature of the book of Jonah. It is difficult to say that the story teaches God’s sovereignty over the creation if God did not in fact “appoint” the fish (1:17), the plant (4:6), the worm (4:7), and the east wind (4:8) to do his will. Jesus, moreover, treated the story as historical when he used elements of the story as analogies for other historical events (see Matt. 12:40–41). This is especially clear when Jesus declared that “the men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah” (Matt. 12:41).

The story of Jonah is not, however, history for history’s sake. The book is clearly didactic (as the allegorical and parabolic interpretations rightly affirm); that is, the story is told to teach the reader key lessons. The didactic character of the book shines through in the repeated use of questions, 11 out of 14 being addressed to Jonah, and the question that closes the narrative leaves readers asking themselves how they will respond to the story.

from ESV STUDY BIBLE

IC-B

Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Dirtfarmer] #9051326 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by BRISTECD
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Sir Francis Crick, British scientist and Nobel Prize winning co-discoverer of the DNA double helix molecule, in his later years waxed philosophical about the origin of life.

In his book, Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature, he postulated that there had to have been original information, possibly seeded from another planet.

Yes, he did write that didn't he. And people call Christians ignorant! Professing himself to be wise, he became a fool. The argument isn't about evolution or creation, it never has been. Anyone with any intelligence at all can plainly see the purposeful design. The argument is centered around accepting or rejecting a Creator. Those who reject simply do not want to think they are accountable to anyone but their own self. Gambling with your soul is not for the faint of heart.

The bottom line, nicely summarized...

To me, I don't know how the World was created. It's above my pay grade...

One day I'll know as I am known...

In the meantime, I don't get my drawers in a wad worrying about it...

I don't feel the itch to put God in a box, understand (control) everything pertaining to Him. If anyone gets Him in their box, it isn't Him in there. He won't fit in your box, or in my box...!!

That's a major problem with religion, trying to make God fit proprietary program(s), doctrine, tradition, etc. Control can be a strong and deceptive current, pulling man down the wrong stream.

DF


Amen


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051327 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Unfortunately, the majority of preachers, teachers, and biblical scholars today believe that the Bible should be read and interpreted as poetic metaphor or error-filled narrative.

No they don't. They believe the Bible should be read from a 'spiritual' perspective...and from an allegorical...as well as...a historical perspective.



Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051332 07/25/14
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Ringman,

Sorry, it wasn't you I was referring to. My post came after yours by just a little bit, should have been before yours.

Last edited by BRISTECD; 07/25/14.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051336 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
BRISTECD,

You would be surprised what fanatical Bible student I have been. I was a cutterhead builder for most of my working life. I worked in the wood industry sharpening knives for machines. Normally I worked alone in the grinding room. Over about three decades I wore out three cassette tape players listening to the New Testament. Just a few years ago my mind was still sharp enough if you read a chapter from the New Testament I could tell you which one it was. Often I could get it if you read only a verse.

At home I had a concordance, a couple sets of commentaries and at least four Greek language books as well as a very large Bible dictionary to help me. While my kids were growing up I got rid of the television and read to them in the evening. At the church where I attended during those years the pastor consulted me often about Scriptural subjects. I didn’t get spoon fed. I was the one doing the feeding.

Like Regan said, "It's not that they're ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so."


You are different for sure, Ringman.

Remember, the world will hate you for it.

You are blessed.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: antlers] #9051339 07/25/14
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Quote
laffin'

billhilly made a valid point, you know it...as well as everyone who read it does, and you couldn't counter it...so you resorted to insults instead.

still laffin'

Tell us some more about morality and 'Christianity'...


I think I hear some nervious laughter from here.


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: antlers] #9051341 07/25/14
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This topic sure has beaten a lot of dead horses, but no one seems to have any clue about genuine history.
America is supposed to have a separation of church and state, because when the two are wedded, you get funny little things like psychoses and witch burnings and crusades.
Perhaps the funniest thing about all this is that there is no historicity to Jesus at all-zero. So, I still get ignoramuses declaring that the bible is the literal word of God. Really? The literal word of a man made myth?!?
How friggin ignorant is that!
I am forever amazed that masses of people will happily dedicate their lives to a religion they don't know the first thing about, just because they were told to. So much for land of the brave, and home of the free. More like land of the conformists and home of the ignoramuses.
Napoleon destroyed the church in France. He exposed and ruined their torture chambers, and drove them out thoroughly-but then, he reinstated the church, admitting that it was the great masses of his people who wanted their sick faith. He despaired of breaking through their ignorance, and gave them what they thought they wanted. Not much has changed in the human animal since then.

Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051342 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
BRISTECD,

You would be surprised what fanatical Bible student I have been. I was a cutterhead builder for most of my working life. I worked in the wood industry sharpening knives for machines. Normally I worked alone in the grinding room. Over about three decades I wore out three cassette tape players listening to the New Testament. Just a few years ago my mind was still sharp enough if you read a chapter from the New Testament I could tell you which one it was. Often I could get it if you read only a verse.

At home I had a concordance, a couple sets of commentaries and at least four Greek language books as well as a very large Bible dictionary to help me. While my kids were growing up I got rid of the television and read to them in the evening. At the church where I attended during those years the pastor consulted me often about Scriptural subjects. I didn’t get spoon fed. I was the one doing the feeding.

Like Regan said, "It's not that they're ignorant. It's just they know so much that isn't so."


Good grief Ringman you are one scary dude.


Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous

"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude


Re: What's wrong with church [Re: eyeball] #9051347 07/25/14
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I like the process of converting trees into expensive wood furniture for the rich, while we open the land up for grazing to support the goats, sheep, cattle, etc.

I mean, when the trees get in the way, they should be sacrificed, shouldn't they Eyeball?

I mean, over in the middle East, clearing the forest was job one, before the goat headers invaded, right?


Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051349 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
...if the Bible is to be relied upon for truth, it is critical that...reading Genesis 1:1–2:3 as accurate historical narrative—be the correct approach.

Pure, unadulterated baloney.

Either the world is 6000 years old and the dinosaurs never existed...or the dinosaurs existed 65 million years ago and evolution was the path God took to create the universe.


Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
Re: What's wrong with church [Re: Ringman] #9051360 07/25/14
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Quote
laffin'

billhilly made a valid point, you know it...as well as everyone who read it does, and you couldn't counter it...so you resorted to insults instead.

still laffin'

Tell us some more about morality and 'Christianity'...

I think I hear some nervious laughter from here.

'You' think a lot of things that simply aren't true whatsoever Ringman.

laffin' some more


Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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