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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 99 |
Well, maybe not all the teams, but Seal Team 6 sure did (ie, M66 .357 Smiths. :-)
I knew that the old Sharkman was lying when he said how many rds that they put thru those styofoam guns , of "full charge magnum ammo".
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,361 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,361 Likes: 1 |
You can't simulate somebody trying to kill you.
I understand we can only do the best we can to prepare for those situations. I get it.
My point is: nobody knows how they are going to respond in real combat, where somebody has got to live and somebody has got to die. Some guys that can't shoot worth a damn pull through every time and some guys that are excellent shots on the range wind up dead.
Last edited by 99guy; 10/22/14.
"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" ~Admiral Yamamoto~
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,374 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,374 Likes: 2 |
Have several, with the Rockola and Winchester my favorites.
Then again, I have several that have been completely reworked for .45 Win Mag...yes, that's right. No questions about quilted Chicom penetration with those!!!
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Sometime back I actually did acquire a National Postal Meter M1. Need to shoot it one of these days. The good bullets designed for it are not easy to find, however.
I think one outfit has now got an AR lower which can use grease gun magazines in .45 ACP, which are still fairly easy to buy. Combined with an appropriate .45 ACP upper, one would gain decent velocity and power, and still have a fairly handy weapon.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1 |
.223 It's an AR15 pistol.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 1 |
Personally, I find a Glock 17 in .357 SIG to be about the best combo available (one lives in my nightstand), but you couldn't teach 75% of active duty personnel to shoot that cartridge well.
Agreed, but that would be the Glock 31, except in a REAL Caliber I've got one that lives on my night stand with a Streamlight Lazer / Light Combo on it. The mid sized version, the Glock 32 lives in the console of my F-250. Right...sorry. Confused my Glocks...the 31. what is the difference between a 357 Sig and a 357 magnum ????? norm
There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden . If it wern't entertaining, I wouldn't keep coming back.------the BigSky
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
Personally, I find a Glock 17 in .357 SIG to be about the best combo available (one lives in my nightstand), but you couldn't teach 75% of active duty personnel to shoot that cartridge well.
Agreed, but that would be the Glock 31, except in a REAL Caliber I've got one that lives on my night stand with a Streamlight Lazer / Light Combo on it. The mid sized version, the Glock 32 lives in the console of my F-250. Right...sorry. Confused my Glocks...the 31. what is the difference between a 357 Sig and a 357 magnum ????? norm .357 Sig is a necked down .40 S&W. If the military ever gives up on the 9mm, the .40S&W is the most likely replacement. The .45 ACP fans are just dreaming.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Mostly the rim means revolver. semi-rimmed means better feeding in semi auto pistols.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Some of you 1911 fans need to talk to some real armorers. Not gun queers. Not hobbyists. I mean guys that stand in a room and fix broken schit for 8 hours a day.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
My point is: nobody knows how they are going to respond in real combat, where somebody has got to live and somebody has got to die. Some guys that can't shoot worth a damn pull through every time and some guys that are excellent shots on the range wind up dead. Well, that's where the science says you're wrong. First example: since WWI, students of aircraft dogfights have known that pilots who survived/won 3 or more dogfights would go on to become multiple aces the vast majority of the time. But the majority of rookie pilots were shot down and killed before they got the necessary combat experience. Boelke and Richtofen used that information to teach new pilots how to survive their first 3 dogfights, and those guys became overwhelmingly successful. The US found this to be true, and taught dogfighting until the VietNam era. They stopped in the late 50's and in the skies over Viet Nam our fighter pilots got their tails waxed by Chinese and North VietNamese pilots. We started teaching dogfighting again (eg, the Navy's Top Gun program) and once again our pilots enjoyed success in combat. Switch to current reality based training. Up until the late 90's police gunfight performance was abysmal... hit probabilities of less than 20% nationwide, and lots of officers getting shot in gunfights. Agencies that have implemented RBT protocols are now seeing hit probabilities of 90% and greater, and far fewer cops are getting hit by incoming rounds. One agency I know of had their hit probability go to 97% and the outcomes of all their OIS's in the 2 years following their RBT training were extremely positive: 34 OIS's, all 34 felons were shot and incapacitated, 27 of them DRT (=low lawsuit probability) and ZERO officers shot. Training people in combatives under realistic conditions greatly increases the probability that they will perform to expectations successfully in actual combat.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,292 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,292 Likes: 4 |
Our forces have been pussified to the point that they can't physically handle a weapon that worked well for close to seventy five years.
Go figure.
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
GeoW, The "Unwoke" ...Let's go Brandon!
"A Well Regulated Militia" Life Member
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
Our forces have been pussified to the point that they can't physically handle a weapon that worked well for close to seventy five years. I'm pretty sure there were a bunch of combat infantrymen and officers in the European and Asian theaters who couldn't hit the side of a barn with their issued 1911s. Some could, and those are the ones we heard about.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,425 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,425 Likes: 6 |
My Dad was one - not a combat officer but a surgeon about a mile behind the lines. Even as a medical officer he was issued a .45. Said he couldn't hit squat with it. He got a Luger and said he liked it much better and could actually hit things with it.
He did like the 1911 since it made a good club. He was a boxer in college and pretty good at handling physical confrontations. He stayed in Europe until 1946 and he said after the war a lot of the "German boys" (he was about 32 years old when the war ended) were pretty disgruntled by the outcome and there were some random assaults on American soldiers but he felt more confident walking the streets of Frankfurt with his "club".
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
Is that why Navy Seals, Spec Ops guys etc virtually emptied out armories (like in Crane, Indiana for the USN) of 45s after 9/11 and sustained combat operations? That's a Marine. That's a first model MEU-SOC 1911.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
But the game changes when you are shooting at a real man who most likely is shooting back at you or has some other weapon that can kill you and can move in three dimensions while you are trying to shoot him.
How do you practice that? Simunitions or something equivalent. Even airsoft will do, but you train for it with force on force training.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
If the military ever gives up on the 9mm, the .40S&W is the most likely replacement. The .45 ACP fans are just dreaming. Okay mark this day down in history, because I'm calling it. The US Military will NEVER adopt the .40 S&W. It MAY find some use in small units but it will never be adopted for general use. The main reason being that the .40 S&W beats pistols to death, and sends them all to an early grave. With the energy it generates, it really should be in a pistol the size of a .45 ACP, then it would have some real longevity.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
Some of you 1911 fans need to talk to some real armorers. Not gun queers. Not hobbyists. I mean guys that stand in a room and fix broken schit for 8 hours a day.
Travis My cousin was a Marine armorer who served in Iraq. He found the 1911 preferable to work on over the M9.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,675 Likes: 1 |
Our forces have been pussified to the point that they can't physically handle a weapon that worked well for close to seventy five years.
Go figure. Bullchit. I trained with people from SEAL team 2 in the early 1990's. I've trained with guys who were from 2nd Ranger BN back then also. And I've trained just a couple of years ago with a US Army Reserve unit. And I'm here to tell you, from what I saw, the Army Reserve unit of today, would wipe the floor with Spec-Ops soldiers of days past. Just my observation, YMMV
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,649 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,649 Likes: 7 |
Is that why Navy Seals, Spec Ops guys etc virtually emptied out armories (like in Crane, Indiana for the USN) of 45s after 9/11 and sustained combat operations? That's a Marine. That's a first model MEU-SOC 1911. Crane is the repository for the Department Of The Navy, but regardless, point being, they are NOT using POS M-9s..
Last edited by jorgeI; 10/23/14.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,991 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,991 Likes: 7 |
Some of you 1911 fans need to talk to some real armorers. Not gun queers. Not hobbyists. I mean guys that stand in a room and fix broken schit for 8 hours a day.
Travis I have spoken to them and when a 1911 is built correctly it is extremely trouble free.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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