Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Military The best infantry rifle

Nimrod,
I have a model 1888 Mauser, made in 1890, with its orginal sling embossed in Arabic and Chinese markings, with its rear sight marked in Vietnamese, taken from an NVA in 1967, in perfect working order. How many different soldiers had carried that thing (not counting its last owner, a US GI ) ?

Same for those AK-47s you see the Afghanis using, picked up off dead USSR troops 25 years ago, cleaned with kerosene and lubed with a touch of motor oil.

'03 Spingfield or 98 Mauser. Reason: Reliability. Spray and pray doesn't get it. Thanks...Bill.

I think the Springfield and Mauser were awesome rifles for their time, but would you really want to do house to house searches in Falluja with a Springfield knowing the other side is armed with AK�s?

For that type of operation I would prefer a 12 gauge shotgun. Thanks...Bill.

Ok, now you�re just cheating.

gungeek,
Now just imagine it is sept 1917 and your clearing trenches.
1917enfield with it's 16" bayonette on the end would be just plain awful cumbersome!
That 1897 Winchester must have seemed like a godsend to the doughboy's!

When I get my dig cam back I'll post pic's of my last trade!!!
I traded a 6-year old mare,9-yeard old gelding(both quarterhorse's) and a piece of crap llama that my wife got 5 years back(for a pack animal,nasty thing almost made it to the mink ranch as chow) for a H&K 91A2,H&K 93A3 and a H&K 94A2!
Woman was liquidating her part of the husbands guns after he sold her horses(they were legally seperated,but now it's over!).
Bad thing to take another mans guns in such a way but his loss is my "pot-o-gold"!
Mike(the vulture) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kevin,

Although it's been 35 years since I served in the Army, I think the military still uses 12 gauge shotguns in Iraq, maybe I'm wrong?? Thanks...Bill.

m70man,
There are plenty of pow's(personally owned weapons);ie Mossberg 500's,over in the mix.
Neighbor boy went back there for his second tour with a M-590 in his duffle.
Back in the day that would get you a article-15!
But times are different with theator CO's giving the troops some lee-way.
Mike

Mike,

This is only my opinion but I would much rather have a 12 gauge with 00 buck than any assualt rifle for urban warfare. I think the US is learning it's mistakes all over again by using the M-16 against those maniacs in the middle east. They should have held on to the M-14 machinery instead of selling it to Tiawan back in '69. The .223 is not a good man stopper, especially when used on the turbans. Have you noticed some M-14s on the news lately. I have. It's kind of like the Phillipine Insurrection when the Colt .38 would not stop the Moros. The .223 worked pretty good on the small scantily clad Vietnamese but it's a different story in Iraq and Afghanistan where they clothe themselves with robes and turbans.

I think you have a much better chance of stopping someone with a shotgun than single round from a rifle. Too much spray and pray going on now. I've seen men on the news just holding up the rifle over their heads and shooting. What good is an unaimed shot?

I also think that each squad should have at least one shotgun and preferrably two.

Have you ever read about "Chesty Puller" when he was arming his battalion for duty in Korea. He ordered thousands of 12 fully brass cased rounds for his outfit. He knew the value of the shotgun. And...he knew the potential failure of paper cased shotgun shells. I would think the current plastic rounds would work fine in most any enviornment.

And...if it was up to me, the 9MM would go out the door and the .45 ACP would be the first line duty handgun.

Anyway, that's just a bunch of opinions from an old guy and I'm sure more of you are in the know than me.

No offense meant to anyone.

Thanks...Bill.

Bill,
I've put time behind the M-16A1 and put down what I hit.
I did also have the pleasure of being issued a M-21 and it was like stepping up to a real rifle!
Each platoon still had a M-67 90mm for anti-armor/bunker busting too.
But not a single shotgun.
I've taken hit's from 7.62x39 and 7.62nato.
That hit from the FAL got me a 100% medical discharge and a limp.
I too think that are troops should have access to at minimum of 2-shotguns per squad.
That and a Designated-Marksman Rifle(semi-auto 7.62)to accuire and destroy soft targets at ranges outside the capabilities of the 5.56mm.
With sidearms,if it has come to the point you need to draw a handgun(not some "sneak&peak")a better platform for the 9mm would be in order or better yet,just issue the 45acp(it aint broke so why was it fixed?)
With the world climate NATO is about as important as SEATO,so just make platforms in calibers like we did with the Garand.
If we make it,we issue it and then other countries will buy it and issue it.
Mike

First let me say - I have no combat time, my choices are at best arm chair suppositions based on reading.

So what I will list is FWIW:

Were I to fight an enemy and I had good logistics - that is re-supply available to me in the field, quality ammo and a qualified armorer to back me up. I think I would select the M14. I think it can fit the bill rather nicely. An M4 or M16 based weapon would also do ( I still prefer the m14) - provided I could select ammo. (IIRC I read a contractor's story in Iraq - seems contractors were allowed to select the ammo they wanted and not mil. issue - he chose the 223 with something I can not remember but got very authoritative kills with a simple double tap to CM. - he made the point that a 223 can be an efective killer with correct ammo. Was in "Soldier of Fortune" IIRC)

Were I to fight an enemy and didn't have logistics - say I had to live off whatever the guy I killed was carrying - I would select a high quality AK. Chances are the enemy I encounter is going to be carrying an AK variation so ammo would be available. Were he not for some really weird reason - I wouldtake his weapon and use it to fight on.

So for me in scenario 1 the best weapon is the M14, secenario 2 - an AK of some type.

Of course side arm considerations would go also #1 1911 in 45ACP, #2 Browning hi-power in 9mm.

teal,
Now if your "down south" be it Mexico or central America and for the most part South America,you will be seeing 7.62Nato and 5.56mm on the part of the national issue arms.
Major area's over in Africa too are noted for 7.62Nato arms!
SW and SE asia are more likely area's for 7.62x39!

Oh to have some 223rem with 55grain HPBT or V-MAX!
Ok better yet,for the 7.62Nato some 155grain A-MAX!
Mike

All,

While few could argue that house to house combat is THE place for a shotgun, the question at hand was, �what�s the best infantry RIFLE.� For some unknown reason (I figure it�s cost), the military has never used (that I know of) the best combat shotgun, Ithaca M37.

For best infantry rifle, I still hold to the Valmet M62/76. They�re better in the house to house scenario than the M16 and they�ll reach out a touch beyond 500 yards with better accuracy than an M14�Just don�t see anything not to like about them (except they�re uglier than the leading lineup at the LPGA)

I do have combat time a long time ago, and the M 16 would be my choice. After humping an M 14 for two years in training, I don't think I'd enjoy humping it any more in combat.

You can't carry enough ammo in 7.62 NATO to satisfy me.

I've owned a M 1A supermatch, and the accuracy was good for the time, but not good by today's standards. You pay a lot to get a little, accuracy wise, and a AR 15 with a minimum of work on it will outshoot a Supermatch. They no longer use them much in matches, except the M 14 matches.

I also trained with the M 21 before it was the M 21...it was XMsomething. This was in Counter Sniper School at Ft. Benning. I liked the rifle and it was accurate aplenty...I think the standard was 1.5 MOA for the rifles. It's still about that now, ifyou ever watch those sniper shows. I don't mean 100 yards, I mean at three hundred. Snipers don't shoot much at 100 yards if they want to live long.

The G 3 is a good rifle, but again, really heavy. The FAL is great looking, but it was not considered accurate enough to build a sniper version. I have one of those civilian versions, as well as a CETME, and the CETME outshoots it consistently, although the trigger is awful. That's the best buy, IMO, in a battle rifle for the individual.

As someone else mentioned it depends where you are. If your enemy is shooting a 7.62 x 39, he's limiting himself to about 150 yards, for all practical purposes. Less if he's shooting it out of an AK...the accuracy isn't there. If you get hit beyond that range, it's either bad luck or a sniper shooting at you.

As far as not being enough firepower, I have to disagree. I've seen bad guys shot with M 60s and M 16s, and if the bullet hit the right place, it didn't matter. If it didn't it was roughly the same result. Shot placement rules. The Marines did a study after things calmed down in Iraq, and the report said essentially the same thing. It's shot placement. The report also criticized the SAWs and the 9mm pistols. Age on the SAWs, and failures on the pistols.

GIs, like everyone else, watch movies and in the heat of combat you want someone to drop like a stone. Especially close up, you want a magic wand that stops them in their tracks or blows the back ten feet because you're scared. (I was scared, anyway.) That don't happen more times that it does.

One reason is with an M 16 and a 3 round burst, you're putting three rounds into a guy's chest in about 1/3 of a second. The human body just can't react fast enough to drop like a stone in a lot of instances....if he's running toward you, it takes more than 1/3 of a second for his critical bodily functions to shut down. So, rather than a lack of firepower, it's unrealistic expectations. He's as dead as he'll ever be, he just hasn't had time to realize it yet.

You don't want to know my opinions of the rack-grade M 14. :>)

gungeek,
The M37 was in use by the War Department in WWII!
They ordered 25,000 shotguns.
They were also in use in Viet-nam by the Navy(brown-water).
www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotgun_ithaca37.php
Mike

We used the Ithaca shotguns in Viet Nam. We alos had one of those old Winchester shotguns with the hammer on the outside and a bayonet lug and barrel shroud.

I don't know how we got it, proabably brought it over from the states when the unit was formed, but a guy in my platoon wouldn't carry anything else.

Sapper,

That makes more sense now�The US used just about every other pump action shotgun between WWII and Vietnam�It�s been a long time since I�ve studied up on military shotguns, but I just couldn�t recall ever seeing the M37. Thanks.

Gene L,
A Mossberg 500 with the cruiser grip on fits inside a Large Alice ruck! The buttstock is put inside too, for assembly at the rally-point!
On non-jump missions where dufflebags are included for deployment,the 18.5" Mossberg's and 20" Mossbergs fit just fine! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Plenty of POW's(personally owned weapons)would find their way along be it 870's or 500's.
Remington Express 2.75" buckshot was favored as it was available in 25-round boxes for a reasonable price(you gotta love them gunshops who were frequented by deer-hunters who used buckshot!
#4 buck worked great on door hinges but the platoon sergeant(173rd Airborne Viet-nam vet)insisted that we load 00-buck for LBD's(little-brown-dudes).
You gotta respect those who "been there and SHOT that"!
Mike

While the Russian 5.45 x 39 AN-94 has not been proven in battle, the Russians have tested it pretty thoroughly. Lack of money is the only reason that I've read or heard for the Russians' failure to mass-produce their new assault rifle and make it general issue. So at least one significant set of armed forces has decided what its future rifle is (some have been issued) and what it will be (lots of troops are still carrying the AK-74). I've read very little about the new Chinese assault rifle and its new small bore, high velocity round. Does anybody know enough to comment on these weapons? Russia and China are serious players, so I assume each has made a reasonable choice for a wide range of applications.

The chinese are rearming their forces(main-line,not reserve) with "5.8mm X 42mm DBP87" for their QBZ-95 weapon family.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm

That is a show in table form of different platforms in use around the globe.
Mike