Last summer I had travelled to Spokane, Washington to do a gunshow there.
I got to Spokane several hours early and while waiting to set up our tables I decided to go "slumming" and visited the pawn shops and gunshops on Spokanes east side.
At one gunshop I was surprised to see a minty Redfield 6x18 variable scope in the case and it was priced at $135.00!
I asked to see the scope and eventually took it outside to do some checking.
I sat the scope on a sandbag atop my VarmintMobile and focussed it for my eye and checked the A/O feature.
I was impressed.
I soon bought the scope for $100.00 cash and even beat the proprietor (legally!) out of the heavy sales tax there in Washington state.
The scope has set idle in my gun room until two days ago
when a friend came to me with his ultra-accurate Ruger 77/22 which had suddenly lost M.O.A. capability at 100 yards and was suddenly at 8 M.O.A.!
He had a Bausch & Lomb 3000 5x15 variable on it and had checked everything out but the scope - he asked me to mount another scope on his Rifle and see if the accuracy "comes back".
My friends original scope WAS the problem as I mounted my "new" 1970's (?) Redfield 6x18 scope on his 77/22 and it re-gained its normal accuracy!
It only took a few hours to do this favor for my friend even though I hated to mount this minty Redfield scope on the notorious "scope ring mark making" Ruger 77/22 integral ring Rifle.
The Redfield's A/O system worked quite well even though it focussed down to just 50 yards - luckily that was where I was doing my testing of the Rifles accuracy.
The image was quite clear with no edge distortion and was relatively bright even at 18 power.
No eyestrain was noted throughout my testing.
The "friction" adjustments were reliable with no hesitation.
While I had the scope and Rifle in my heavy "X" type Dog-Gone-Good sandbag I did some exact yardage testing of the A/O and the marked yardages on the scopes A/O ring were quite close and did eliminate parallax at respective ranges (50, 100, 200 yards).
I have a couple other Redfield 6x18 variables on vintage Varmint Rifles and they have served me well for some time now.
I just had not "tested" them in decades like I did this one, this week.
And on top of it all performance wise this danged old Redfield 6x18 just looked REALLY good!
My recommendation is if anyone comes across a Redfield 6x18 variable scope for a "good" price then jump on it!
I often wonder what happened (caused the demise) of the original Redfield scope and sight company - bad management, heavy competition???
Don't know for sure but I do know I was sad to see them disappear.
Now I have to find a "vintage" appropriate (1970's) Varmint Rifle to go with this nifty old scope - I would prefer a Remington 700 Varmint Special in caliber 222 Remington.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

{I often wonder what happened (caused the demise) of the original Redfield scope and sight company - bad management, heavy competition???
Don't know for sure but I do know I was sad to see them disappear.}
If I remember correctly, the company was disolved after environmental contamination was found migrating from the site and they were determined to be liable for it's cleanup.

It wasn't based upon product issues. They were one of the better scopes back then....and the quality those older models still around are evidence of that.

Redfield started out as Kollmorgen Optical that built most of the periscopes and telescopes for the USN in WWII. After the war Kollmorgen started making rifle scopes including the famous and VERY rare USMC 4X sniper scope for the M-1 used in Korea. Redfield was already an established mount company and absorbed Kollmorgen & Stith. Kollmorgen made 26mm tube scopes and early Redfield were also 26mm, were also called Bear Cubs and used the same friction adjustment system (bulletproof) as Kollmorgen. As long as they were an independent company, they made great scopes. There was a period when the name was bought and used on "just okay" pacific rim scopes.
Now Leupold has bought the name and is producing a broad line of medium priced scopes which have received good press and carry the full Leupold guarantee.

You scored a classic winner !

Lawrence Root why do you find it necessary to continually circumvent Rick Bin's wishes for you to be gone from his website by continuing to add numerous screen names for the sole intent and purpose to TROLL a site where you are neither wanted nor offer ANYTHING of real use and value to the membership?

You've been banned here multiple times and have multiple user names and even claim to be your wife from time to time! You've done the same thing on many other Forums, and have been banned from them as well ... (Accurate Reloading, SnipersHide, Optics Talk, ARAIG, just to name a few...).

Get a life you pathetic, miserable old limp wristed geriatric cross-dresser.

You f*cking old piece of dogshit, is your f*cking "pride" group on hiatus again?

He's over on Accurate Reloading as well under yet another handle!

Larry is still a root................

I have this same scope, bought it from a shooting buddy bout 2 years ago for bout the same price. Actually I bought a box of scopes from him at the time. Had not looked at it to hard at the time and so it sat in the box until I traded for a Ruger 77/22 hornet that he had acquired. This rifle was still in the box and hadn't been fired. The Redfield I have has a couple of ring marks on it, just normal wear and very clear glass. Stuck it on this rifle b/c it was the only scope I had free at the time. I got 2 cases of the Winchester 45 gn hollow points from him along with the rifle. After 50 rounds it is shooting under an inch and just getting better. I believe the Redfield will just stay on it:).

The only problem with it is some bubba had turned the right to left adjustment with a pocketknife or something. Wallowed it out a bit in the process. I'm actually glad I didn't pull the cap off when I bought it or I may not have. It looks like crap when you take the cap off but still works fine. I have several of these older redfields of different powers and reticles and have always been pleased with all of them.

The gender confused cross-dressing geriatric TROLL and his ardent defender Kevin aka 22WRF were both BANNED on the other board.... AGAIN! lol

Always hilarious to give the dumbest of nitwits such as Larry Root the microphone, spotlight and stage, only to watch him fall (get BANNED) repeatedly.

Trolling of the desperate wannabe faction (Larry and his ilk) is always good for a laugh.

FOsteology

The only reason I was banned is because you asked the moderators to ban me because I criticized you solely because you continue to insist that you should be the one who determines who should be on these forums, for whatever reason.

Thats fine. No problem. But I think its you who is always good for the laugh.

Kevin, as per usual you're WRONG. I never asked a Mod. or Admin. (nor the owner) to ban you. Furthermore, I have NEVER contacted a Moderator/Admin. nor the Owner in regards to you nor any of your posts.

Do you honestly think a Moderator or Admin. would ban you or anyone else I desired?? Absurd and laughable.

NO ONE is responsible for you and Root's user ID's being blocked or banned other than YOURSELVES.

Okay, then you tell me why I was responsible for being banned. I had been back on that site for quite awile, and at least three of the moderators knew I was there. And I had been told it was ok for me to be there.

And then, all of a sudden, when I mentioned that I thought you were going a bit overboard on a poster about a redfield scope, I get banned.

It had to be you! No matter. I am happy for you. You got your wish and now you get to brag about your accomplishment.

Never admit it was your own actions that got you booted....that would be too simple.

I don't know, but could hazard a guess. Your welcome was worn out?? Your constant defense and association with the loathsome Larry Root (whom has been banned NUMEROUS times) was the reason??

Instead of asking me, why don't you inquire with the powers that be over on AR?

I's asking you because you seem to be the only one over here bragging about the whole thing. When you get sh_t on you it continues to stink.

And by the way, I am not sticking up for Larry Root. I don't personally know Mr. Root. Rather, what I am sticking up for is the idea that these places are FORUMS. They are places to be heard. Even though they are private, they are meant to be a place for the free exchange of ideas.

There is no doubt that there have been a few occasions when Mr. Root may have gone overboard a bit, but so have you, and so have I, and so have many other folks both here and AR. Those are subjective decisions.

When I asked why I got kicked off AR the first time I was told
"because you are too good for this site". I doubt very seriously that I got kicked off the second time (after I had been back there for over three months, and all of a sudden made one comment about you) just because I was still too good for the site.

There really is nothing worse than a crybaby.

Jeep9776: I am happy your Ruger 77/22 Hornet is doing so well.
The one I owned I gave up on maybe a bit to soon?
Is your Ruger 77/22 Hornet the sporter model or the heavy barrel model?
Great shooting either way.
Ring marks have gotten me into some excellent used scope deals over the decades.
I try to always lap my rings before mounting a scope to avoid ring marks and "pressure points".
Rings and mounts have improved over the last 50 years though and I seldom see anymore a set of grossly misaligned rings.
Keep up the good work with the Ruger 77/22 Hornet.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

It appears Larry is also f*cking around with people in the classifieds here; offering to buy an item, sending nothing, then sending a receipt or promissory note to send the funds at some future date. (I received a PM from someone asking me "WTF's up with this guy?")

He'll mess with the wrong guy one day and get more than a promissory note for a boot in his ass. What a tool.

Like Kevin, he doesn't actually do anything illegal or necessarily unethical, but he will waste your time to the nth degree. He likes to play these dickheaded passive-aggressive games to demonstrate that he can disrupt the business and various other board transactions and discourse while simultaneously being one of the most universally reviled pieces-of-[bleep] anyone can potentially encounter on 24HCF or AR. He just needs to be blacklisted -- like Kevin.

So what did this Larry Root guy do that was so bad to get him banned? Heck Pricktop is still on here and I bet there have been more complaints filed against him than anyone else.

You mean a crybaby like you? Re-read your post.

I've seen you question the reputation of very reputable members here in their for sale ads for no reason at all other than to place doubt in potential buyers' minds. No idea why I didn't already have you on ignore.

Lookie here, the candyass police has arrived.

Well.........he's prolly right.

Probably...with a small exception, I have never heard of Brick being referred to as a thief or shonky to deal with.

It would take pages to explain that one, but suffice it to say someone needs to work very, very hard and long to get banned.

I can't ever find much fault with a man that tells it like it is AND knows what he's talking about. I can overlook all the bedside manner to get those qualities. Referring to Bricktop, of course.

It's one thing to be an ass-hole, it's another to be a douchebag like Root.

Brick doesn't lie, doesn't sneak around, doesn't deceive and doesn't need to hide behind an evolving list of aliases.

Larry does all of the above.

DF

Well we got Larry's brother in the whitehouse but you guys don't give him as much crap as Larry and Barack is worse.?

WTF???

How did you determine that Capecod31 is Larry Root?

As has often been the case, Larry is polluting the ether with incorrect information, in that his statement that Redfield started as Kollmorgen Optics is incorrect. John Redfield had been making gun sights in Denver since 1909, 49 years before Redfield bought the rifle scope unit from Kollmorgen. KO had been making scopes for Stith from 1949/550 thru 1955/56, after which KO began branding the former Stith line of scopes under the Kollmorgen brand.

The schit I don't. Venture over to the hunter's campfire forum if'n you dare.

Other, more computer savvy guys have all kinds of ways to determine that capecod is Larry Root.
Me, I just read his posts and there is no doubt in my mind when one of the aliases is Larry Root.

No matter how hard he tries to mix it up there are always unmistakable Rootisms in his posts.

FOst is an IT guru.

If he says it's Larry, it's Larry.

DF

Larry Root is scum, pure and simple. Just read the feedback from the people he screwed in gun deals. Lots of totally misrepresented firearms that he refused to accept returns on. I wouldn't believe a word spoken or written by whatever handle Larry is going by these days. If you think Larry has some redeeming value, I think that you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

Those thinking Larry is OK, just a poor misunderstood soul, hasn't been paying attention. Listen to those who have been flushing him for years, who really know who he is and what he is.

Do not trust him and NEVER do any gun deals.

Word to the wise.

DF

Just an example of how diseased and dishonest Larry Root is.

When the only place which sold Fred Zeglin's book, Wildcat Cartridges, was directly from Larry Root on eBay I purchased a copy. I paid within a minute of my BIN using Paypal.
Having the same username on eBay as I have on here Larry knew it was me.
He sent me several emails where he berated me and called Rick Bin all kinds of nasty names. Saying he was a coward and a lap dog.
He did send the book however and the book was filled with some very good information from Mr. Zeglin. The publisher however, our very own Larry Root, did a lousy job of putting it together and did no proofreading whatsoever.
In the meantime Larry stopped selling the book on eBay and went exclusively with Amazon to sell it.
I decided that I'd leave a review of the book on Amazon since this was now the only place to get the book. I left an honest review where I praised the information from Mr. Zeglin but pointed out that the publishing was very poor. Larry, in his usual dishonest way, created not one, not two, but three different aliases to slam my review and to slam me personally on the Amazon review page.
Amazon, seeing his charade for what it was, took down two of his "reviews" and they left my honest review up.
It was soon after this incident that Larry Root, at his most cowardly and craven, began to call my home phone and to leave obscene and profanity laced messages for my children to hear. When I picked up the phone during one of these diatribes Larry promptly crapped his pants and hung up.
That right there is what Larry Root is.

I agree.
However, the point both you and Larry Root continue to purposely ignore is the fact that both of you have had those privileges revoked.... on more than one occasion.

Your participation and input are no longer welcomed nor wanted. Instead of accepting and dealing with the fact, you both choose to continuously attempt to circumvent the wishes and desires of the Forum owner, Admin. and or Moderators to go elsewhere. In the case of Larry Root, utilizing proxy servers for the sole intent and purpose to create additional user names/accounts in order to continue with his bizarre and trollish behavior.


I see your going to continue to labor under the impression that I'm omnipotent, and made the powers that be over on AR ban you.

Yes indeed, it certainly appears with both you and the limp wristed cross dressing geriatric TROLL it's always someone else's fault...

Since you wish to continue being a crybaby Kevin, cyber hanky to you, so as to keep the tears of torment out of your keyboard. Wouldn't want you getting shocked and lose the ability to babble in depth about the tragic travails of your unfulfilled life and the unfairness of it all.

I'm kinda still waiting on the defamation suit promised by 22WRF.

TFF!!!

FOsteology

Maybe, but the issue for me is the reason I got booted.

I know I was too good for AR, but learned my lesson and didn't act that way this second time. Most of the moderators knew I was there for over 3 months. And like I said, all of a sudden, after making one comment about you, I get booted.

So, I don't care what you call me, or what you or anyone else accuses me of. As my Dad used to say to me when I was a little kid, "sticks and stone my break your bones, but words will never hurt you". So what.

But what does hurt me is a lying prick like you, who knows damn well he went to the moderators and complained. As I said, nothing worse than a [bleep] whiner.

" I know I was too good for AR"

Those few words tell me all I need to know about 22WRF.... Travis yourself.

What is meant by that is that I entered very heated conversations without using the words you or I. In other words, I would stay strictly on the topic while the other person or persons were getting more and more pissed off. Or to put it another way, while the other person resorted to ad hominem argument, I stayed on topic. For some reason it pissed people off, and I got booted for it.

I know that you know that I know that you know ...

Classic ad hominem

That sounds like Larry Root narcissism.

Kevin may not be quite to Larry's level of pathology, but seemingly afflicted with the same disease process.

DF

Missed that one. Someones skin ain't thick enough for life evidently. Panty wad I'd say

Classic hominem ad...

Kevin,

You're such a thin skinned prick and crybaby whiner...

I have no reason to lie. As already stated (and should be obvious), if you really want to know the reason(s), why not go to the source?? Ask the Mods/Admin. over on AR why you got the boot.

If not, then continue to gnash your teeth and stomp your feet and cry your little cyber crybaby eyes out while pointing at me saying, "You did it, you're responsible"!

Always someone else's fault with you and Larry...

Keep applying ointment to that oozing clit of yours, as I don't give two sheits over your puzzified delicate sensibilities.

FOsteology

Its amazing to me that it seems to be ok for you and all of your cronies here to use my name in public (and I don't care if you do or not) but then you hide behind your user name when you do so. If you are going to call me Kevin Kolosky, which is my name, at least have the sense to say who you are.

And quit being such a liar. Quit trying to hide your lying by calling me names.


You have plenty of reason to lie. The reason is that you and your little friends like to control content on these forums, and if you don't like what somebody says you turn to ad hominem argument to try and ridicule them and try to get rid of them.

The strange thing is that you and your little buddies are allowed to do it, but other people aren't. So you can get by with criticizing me on AR, but when I do it back I get booted. What is the difference. You go crying to the moderators. Mommy, Mommy, Kevin is here and posting again and he said bad things to me. Please kick him off the site.

Im glad you don't give two sheits over my sensibilities. And I wouldn't even give one over yours. Your nothing more than a crybaby, and so are your buddies. If you don't like what I say or what Root says or what anybody else says, just don't read it. Is that so hard to understand? well, maybe for you it is, but please try.

I think its ALWAYS somebody elses fault for you and your little buddies, not the other way around.

TFF Kevin!

Facts are facts, and you've capably demonstrated your inability or unwillingness to process them.

You're simply a boundless source of gross stupidity, frosted copiously with a marvelous lack of comprehension. Humorous that you side step tangibles (inquiring with AR for actual reasons) in favor of continuing your self deluded pity fest and insistence that I'm lying, and responsible for your banning.

You seem to ALWAYS cry foul about something or another. Yours is a perpetual BooHoo-fest and it's always someone else "fault".

Lets put your absurd and laughable hypothesis to the test shall we? You claim I have the power and authority to have you (or anyone else I desire) banned.

Since I supposedly (your adamant insistence) had you banned on AR by merely asking/demanding the "powers that be" over on AR. A board which I might add, I have very little presence and participation with.... having you banned here on the campfire should be a piece of cake.

ATTENTION Rick Bin, Sysop, Admin., and or Moderators:

In light of the previous unbeknownst power that I supposedly wield (according to 22WRF), I hereby flex my Internet muscles, power, and authority and request... nay, demand that 22WRF be banned from 24hourcampfire immediately!

Fosteology

Afraid to say your name. I figured so.

Big talker and big liar so long as nobody knows who you are.

I didn't think that even you would be as stupid as you just demonstrated. This site isn't AR. I didn't say you got me banned here. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. But you did on AR, and no matter how much bad language and innuendo and dancing around the bush you do in order to camoflauge the truth, your a damn liar.

Jesus [bleep] Christ! What a cry baby! I've been here for a while and have never been bitch slapped by BT, turned in to the mods by Fos, or been dumbfukituded by Schtick. Guess I will have to try harder.

"Jesus [bleep] Christ!"

Thats all I need to see to know what kind of a person you are.

You want the world suger coated and served on an ice cream cone? Would it be ok if I just put JFC, like others?

You might have hang ups about sky daddy and who hurt your feelers, but not me.

So what kind of person do you think you are? And you can leave all the lawyer-speak bullschit out of it. Answer truthfully if you dare.

First this in reference to bigwhoop's WTS post::



Here's the link: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Kimber_Talkeetna_375_H_H_Fo#Post6402743

And then about 1-1/2 months later this:



Here's the link: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6565261/1

WTF?

Then you are REALLY going to be disappointed with me...because I spell it f_cking.

Seriously, you might want to just stop and peruse these posts in an objective manner before continuing.

Signed.

James Stuart.

(but how can you be sure that is my name!)

A lot of us know who he is and where he lives.

And those who know him, know he's NOT a liar and is a man of his word.

Your statements tell us you don't know him.

DF

Har! Sense of humor is still wicked.

This discussion is way off. It is way off the subject matter of the thread. And there is too much false cause argument (after this and therefore in consequence of this). The fact that A proceeds B does not necessarily make A the cause of B. This whole thing, inlcuding me I admit, has turned into an ad hominem discussion, which makes it basically a worthless discussion.

(once again, for those who are unfamiliar with ad hominem argument: A common response when someone runs out of legitimate argument about the issue in question is to resort to Argumentum Ad Hominem, or a shifting of argument from the point being discussed to the personality of the opponent, usually in the form of an attack on the opponents reputation or moral character; or refering to low intelligence, inferior social position, lack of education, physical composition, or some activity or lack of activity that bears no relationship on the issue (Your wrong because you suck, you voted for Obama, you got low grades in college, you live on the wrong side of the tracks, your wife is a whore, your fat and ugly, and you don't know anything anyway because you haven't been around).


The original premise was about redfield scopes. That is where it should have stayed.

This post was made.
"Redfield started out as Kollmorgen Optical that built most of the periscopes and telescopes for the USN in WWII. After the war Kollmorgen started making rifle scopes including the famous and VERY rare USMC 4X sniper scope for the M-1 used in Korea. Redfield was already an established mount company and absorbed Kollmorgen & Stith. Kollmorgen made 26mm tube scopes and early Redfield were also 26mm, were also called Bear Cubs and used the same friction adjustment system (bulletproof) as Kollmorgen. As long as they were an independent company, they made great scopes. There was a period when the name was bought and used on "just okay" pacific rim scopes.
Now Leupold has bought the name and is producing a broad line of medium priced scopes which have received good press and carry the full Leupold guarantee.

You scored a classic winner !"

I thought it provided a lot of good information about Redfield.

Next post was this;

'Lawrence Root why do you find it necessary to continually circumvent Rick Bin's wishes for you to be gone from his website by continuing to add numerous screen names for the sole intent and purpose to TROLL a site where you are neither wanted nor offer ANYTHING of real use and value to the membership?

You've been banned here multiple times and have multiple user names and even claim to be your wife from time to time! You've done the same thing on many other Forums, and have been banned from them as well ... (Accurate Reloading, SnipersHide, Optics Talk, ARAIG, just to name a few...).

Get a life you pathetic, miserable old limp wristed geriatric cross-dresser."


If the poster disagreed with the information, he could have said so. "I disagree. Redfield was . . .. . whatever"

And most of all, if a person doesn't like what somebody else says, why not this? If you don't like what somebody is saying, don't read it?
If you don't like the person posting, don't read his posts. Pretty simple.

You're still here Kevin??? Damn, I need to chastise the "powers that be" here on the campfire to get busy.

22WRF,

Don't give Larry Root credit for more than reading the internet. He's a pathological type who has to always be at the center of attention. He has a compulsion to be a perpetual expert on all things.

He's a Ernest Hemingway wannabe with attempts at publsihing (literary itch), Key West connection, personal appearance, rifle photos and info, etc.

Fire members call him out and some have enough computer savy to counter Larry's "computer expertise", used in trying to circumvent the Fire rules and wishes of the owner.

Is this someone you want to champion?

DF

Dirt Farmer

We all suffer from the human condition. Certainly your assessment of Mr. Root may be correct for you. Its your right to not like him. Its your right to not like me.

But again I ask, what is so difficult about just passing over what he or I or anyone else writes. What is so damn difficult.

There are quite a few people on here whom I find to be the same as you find Mr. Root to be. I think they are pricks. And I have to apologise for being human in the sense that once in awhile I do make the mistake of posting if I don't like someting they are saying. But I know its stupid to do so. The right thing to do is just ignore it, and stay on the topic of the thread. (Or to put it another way, I think people should be able to write anything they want to write, but I don't think they should write a lot of things. How is that for being mixed up)

This is a forum about guns and hunting. That is what the threads should be about. And if someone doesn't like what somebody else is posting they should just ignore it rather than try to act as a moderator for everyone else for the very reason that some people may find the posts interesting and worthwhile.

As I said, I found what Mr. Root had to say about redfield as educational. I didn't previously know some of that information. You found it to be "pathological". Thats fine. You are entitled to that. But as I said, the reason to just glance over those items you don't like rather than ban people from writing them is because they may have value to other people.

And that is really what I am about here. I come here for the free exchange of ideas about guns and hunting.

As far as the "Fires Rules". Mr. Root may be breaking them, but if a moderator were tasked with the duty to ban every single person who breaks the rules on this site, you would be gone, I would be gone, and most of the people who have posted on this thread would be gone.

I could have swore your 10:13am EDT said you were done with this thread.

Apparently...not?

Aparently not. And its ad hominem anyway. This thread is not about me.
It shouldn't be about anyone. It should be about redfield scopes.

Kevin has repeatedly stated in previous discussions that he cannot stop replying if someone replies to him. I don't know if Rick Bin gave him an order to make replies or if he just lacks self-control.

hominem, grits, hell. It don't matter as long as there's scrambled eggs and bacon with it.

And a redfield scope on your squirrel rifle.

Bricktop

Come on Bob, if you are going to use my name, please respect me enough to use yours as well?

"1] Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire."

There must be a reason for user names on these sites. It may be to keep ones privacy. It doesn't really bother me if people use my name. Everyone knows who I am anyway. But I think its pretty disrespectful to hide behind a user name while at the same time using another person's real name.

You do not learn, do you!

maybe not from poor teachers. but neither do you. your comment is ad hominem and is not about the subject matter of the thread.

Well damn, I see Kevin is still here. I suppose I don't have the clout and authority to have him banned.

I'm not really surprised, but am a little bummed as I had a whole list of jokers I was going to submit for banning! lol

You cannot be helped, so I shall ignore you.

Goodbye.

You know, traditionally the phrase "ad hominem" is used to describe when debating a specific argument that an individual will resort to personal attacks on the other.

Since you haven't really participated in discussing Redfield scopes in this thread, I believe you are using the phrase out of context.

In a sense, by your usage, everything you have done in this thread is ad hominem to Fost (et al.), and therefore, not about the subject matter of the thread.

I agree to a degree. In parts of this thread the subject matter became ME and other members, but not by my choice.

Nevertheless, if we agree its wrong, then lets end it, both here and on other threads. I do not see any headings where the subject matter is supposed to be other members. Its supposed to be guns and hunting.

Yup.

You know if you would just heed this idea........

That photo wasn't originally posted by me, and is a perfect example of ad hominem childish behavior by Thomasmagnum.

And Kenjs1, I would be happy to heed my idea if others, including you, would as well.

Again, this thread is NOT supposed to be about me. Why did you continue to make it so. You and your cohorts want others to obey the so called rules here on 24 hour. Yet you insist that its okay for you and others to break them.

The rules.

Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire.

So please, stop attacking me. this thread shoud revert back to Redfield Scopes.

Sorry man. You're right I was being childish.

And the aditional comments you inseted that I did not make are ad hominem and childish.

I'm rubber.. You're glue... whatever you say... bounces off me... and sticks to you!

Does anyone else find Kevin's (22wrf) constant scolding and admonishing everyone for making comments and discussion outside the original content of the OP's topic ironic??

Classic case of "Do as I say, and not what I do".

Hypocrite.

Self important hypocrite no less....


Oh and 22wrf,

Nanny Nanny
Boo boo
Stick your head
In doo doo

Keep going guys.

I got an over/under on the number of times he can use "ad hominem" in a thread, and I am close.

Balls on close.

I'll get a sandwich out of this deal.

You guys continue over and over to prove my point.
You question why other people don't obey "the rules" and then
you continue to disobey them yourselves.

For you RWE, your post was ad hominem. I hope that helps.

MONEY!

Good for you. Glad I could help.

And you've proved mine (and others) point.

And you have proven mine.

Hey Kevin I just googled you. Is it true you've run to be a County Judge in every election since 1994?...

Yup, thats me.

I stopped running for judge becasue I leaned that you cannot be successful in doing so in Minnesota. The sitting judges here are allowed to have the word "incumbent" after their name on the ballot, and it gives them a statistical 30 % advantage. But I am proud of the fact that I ran, something not everyone can do.

And again, this thread is not about me. Additionally, if you are going to use my name and photo you should say what yours is so I can google you. Why is everyone so afraid to use their full name on the posts that they use to attack others?

My point is proven again. You guys complain about other people not following rules, and then you continue to ignore them yourselves.

Your post is meant as a personal attack on me. Its ad hominem.

So everyone has supposedly proven the others point. What's your next lecture going to encompass Kevin? Doubt anyone will care other than yourself...

I am not sure how asking a question was an attack...
You mentioned your full name in this thread, and are the only person who has done so. You were addressed by others as Kevin. Which point in fact reveals no more about your personal identity than it does for me to reveal that my given name is actually Thomas.
Surely you are not that dull.

Surely you are not that dull Thomas. Its an attack because its about me, not about the subject matter of the thread.

What is your last name Thomas.

Fosteology

If you don't care, why are you still posting? And what is your name.

Kevin you apparently are that dull. The point of my post what that YOU are the only person here who indentified your full name. Others addressed you as Kevin, however YOU are the only person who gave out your last name.
As for my last name its Gofuckyourself. Thomas Gofuckyourself III. Crazy right?

Thomas, maybe you are that dull. If YOU look back, I didn't start out saying what my name was. I just wasn't afraid to admit what it is when it was used by other people.

My POINT is that YOU and others seem to want to use people's names (such as mine, Larry Roots, and others) when YOU want to attack them and ridicule them. But YOU don't want anyone to know who YOU are, YOU don't want anyone to know what your real name is. I am just wondering why.

Why do you care if I continue to post? I haven't been banned, so I continue to enjoy the privilege.

Your memory must be faulty, as I've already told you awhile back that my name is William. Any further personal information is withheld as the ONLY reason you and Larry want to know is strictly for nefarious purposes.

Both YOU and Larry have previously posted your full name on an open Forum of your own free will. Getting upset and bent out of shape because others call you by name.... well, you really have no one to point fingers at and blame other than yourself.

I have taken the quotes from every post in this thread that mentions your name. You words here versus their's dullard. The only person to post your entire name was YOU.




VS.

I am not upset. I am proud of my name and I don't care that others use it.

I don't know why you continue to relate me to Larry Root. I don't know what he would do.

I wouldnt use your name for nefarious purposes.

So William what is your last name?

And what are you trying to prove Thomas? As I said, I don't hide my name if other's use it. I would just like to know who I am dealing with - what a person's real name is - if they are going to use mine. So, what is your last name.

Hey Kevin I found an interesting article on you in the Minneapolis StarTribune...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-62642271.html

Its impressive that you ran to be a judge right out of law school, but apparently your opponent didn't find you to be a "serious cadidate". I wonder why?
Such a shame.

The fact that you regularly defend Larry is the reason you're associated and lumped in with him. Just as you appear to have a proclivity to defend other scumbags and thieves (Greg Hein immediately to comes to mind) on other boards.
You yourself act like a scumbag from time to time.
Example: Questioning the reputation of very reputable members here in their Classifieds ads for no apparent reason other than to place doubt in potential buyers' minds.

Reason enough.

Yup, it was a shame. But that is not the real reason I lost the election. As I said, the judges here get to have the word incumbent after their name which gives them a statistical advantage.

And again, this thread is not supposed to be about me. Its supposed to be about Redfield scopes. So everyting you write is ad hominem.

That's a common theme with him.

Hmmm you think that is the only reason?

Well, there's that. And there's also this thing about not wanting nutbags for judges. I think that was the remaining 70% you're avoiding.

Article also states Kevin had an arrest record for domestic violence?

Imagine that, from a guy perpetrating a "holier than thou" attitude on the Forum.

FOsteology

You completely misinterpret my intentions.

I do not defend Larry Root. What I defend is that people who complain against him and others do not follow the very same rules that they complain Mr. Root and others have broken.

In the case of Mr. Hein, I didn't defend his actions. Quite the contrary. What I said was that it seemed futile to me to go after him to the point where he was left with no other choice than to file bankrupcy.

And finally, my intent is not to question respected members. Rather, it is to point out that both sides of a transaction need to be protected, and I am just questioning why the poster (whoever it may be) thinks that they are entitled to protection and the other side is not.

William, what is your last name. And I will ask you the same questions you asked me. Why do you continue to violate the rules that you complain others violate?

Yup, I was arrested for domestic violence. It was soon after we were married, and we hadn't learned how to deal with each other so we both hit each other. It was dropped. We learned our lesson. And 28 years later we are still happily married.

And again, all of this is classic ad hominem, and of course why you guys are afraid to give your full name here. its because you want to be able to look up things on me and copy them here but you don't want me to do the same to you.

I recognize you have the right to do it (although I would imagine it is against the rules here), and that is why it doesn't bother me that you do it. But it certainly shows clearly the classic use of AD hominem, which is when a person lacks any logical argument for the issue in question, and therefore must resort to ad hominem argument in order to attempt to hide the fact that they have no real arguments for the real issue.

Again, this thread isn't about me. Its about Redfield scopes.

We have a winner!

Thomas, he does seem a tad defensive. Evidently I have to take his advice before he can take his advice. I have a feeling we can expect more post from him about him on how we shouldn't have posts about him.

Bricktop

I don't have any complaint against you. At least you have admitted that your name is Robert Brown from Edmond OKlahoma. Good for you.

Wow Kevin its a good thing you smacked your wife 28 years ago. If that would have happened today you likely would have lost the right to own firearms.
So what were you guys fighting about that was so serious? Did she "deserve" it?


Glad to hear you have been "happy" together since then.

I didn't smack her. I just held her back from smacking me. The neighbor called, not us. And it was dropped. but of course not ignored by my judicial opponent. Politics is a very dirty business, in case you don't know. Probably another reason why I never won.

And again, ad hominem

What is your last name Thomas.

I haven't been banned... nor circumvent the owner/admin./moderators wishes to be gone by continuing to create user names for the sole purpose of trolling and disrupting a Forum in which I'm neither wanted nor welcomed.

Aside from THAT rule, where am I the one complaining about rule violations??

Larry Root has proven and demonstrated himself to be a loathsome scumbag on numerous occasions. When I read a post and realize it's him, back yet again.... I simply point him out.

Consider it a public service announcement. What the Owner/Admin./Mods decide to do to him (ban again) is solely up to them.

Yes indeed, I will not deny that I get a sophomoric kick out of "outing" Larry at every opportunity. But guess what, Larry obviously gets a kick out of it too!

Why else would Larry continue to PM me and tell me I'll never guess what other screen names he's posting under?!


As to my full name Kevin, it's none of your business. Unlike you, I don't paste all my personal information out on a public board.

FOsteology

I didn't paste my name on this thread either. As I said, I just didn't deny it when YOU used it first. I would think that if a person didn't paste their name on a public board it would be for the reason that they wanted to keep their private life private, and I would think that a rational person would respect that in all of the other people that he deals with on that board. And in fact, I think the RULES kind of call for that.

As for Larry Root, or others. As I have said, what difference does it make if he, or others, post here. My very point is that if you don't like what he says, don't read it. If you don't like what I say, don't read it. I just don't understand why it is that you feel like you have to protect everyone else from people who may have broken a rule, and especially when many of the other people who join you are breaking the rules all of the time. Why don't you ask that they be thrown off for breaking the rules? Surely some of the language that they use, and some of the disrespect that they show are breaking the rules. Why shouldn't they be kicked off.

Oh, Kevin got me! He's a clever one!!!!

I didn't get you. I just congratulated you. Nevertheless, I would never use that information in a detrimental manner like some do here.

Well now Counselor, this


sounds a lot different than this.



I mean in one instance you say you held her back from smacking you, but just before that you stated that you hit each other. That is somewhat curious.

I held her back. She hit me. Neighbor called. Police have to arrest someone. Case dismissed. Still happily married all this time later. So drop it. Its ad hominem. You have nothing to say about Redfield scopes so you continue to show your lack of knowledge by circumventing the issue of the thread by talking about me instead.

What is your last name Thomas.

Silly Kevin The 'wifeholderbackerer'



No one posted your last name here, but you. What interest do I have in posting mine for you. People I consider friends here know my name, and more about me of course.
I don't consider you a friend or even an acquaintance so why I would I tell you what my last name its.



So if she hit you, and you were only holding her back... why would you say that you "hit each other"?
That just seems odd.

Are you embarrased of your last name? Why would you not consider providing it in a conversation where you use the other person's name?

What is your last name Thomas.

Generally people have conversations with people they respect, Kevin. Hopefully you can figure out the rest.

Robert, thank you for your respect. I appreciate it. And of course I know the rest. I would just like to hear him truthfully admit it.

What that I don't consider you a friend, and therefore see no reason for a "wifeholderbackerer" such as yourself to have my last name?


Okay there you have it....

I said "truthfully". And truthfully you don't want to admit your last name becasue you are afraid that if you do people will look up information about you on the internet and other places and use that private information in public where you had not intended that it be used. To me that translates to embarrassment for who you are.

Obviously you DON'T "know the rest," Kevin, hence me not volunteering my name because I find you to be a mostly contemptible, mentally unstable "person." If you know what I mean. And I think you do.

Once again you're full of SHEIT!

I ONLY addressed you by your given name "Kevin".

YOU are the one that listed your last name.




I never knew (nor cared) what you full name was. The ONLY reason I know is because YOU posted it yourself on an open Forum both here and Accurate Reloading.

Robert

You don't have to volunteer your name. I already know its Robert Brown. So what. No big deal.

And I think you are entitled to think whatever you want about me.
My point has always been, though, that if you don't like me, just ignore me.

I have taken the quotes from every post in this thread that mentions your name. You words here versus their's dullard. The only person to post your entire name was YOU.




VS.













Once again since Kevin seems not to realize he is the only person who identified his full name.

Fosteology.

I never posted my entire name first on other threads. People started using it, and me, being proud of my name, just never denied it. If you want to use it, fine. If you don't want to give out yours, fine.
I think it seems strange that people use other people's name in conversations without using their own name. I think they do it because they want to try and embarrass the other person. I think that so long as their privacy is protected they use other people's real names as an ad hominem argument when they run out of rational things to say about the issue in question. And of course, people don't want other people looking up things about them on the internet and using that information in arguments against them. So yea, I understand why you don't want to give me your name. I just think that if people want to preserve their own privacy for those very reasons they would respect others privacy for the same reasons, but it seems like here on 24hour that doesn't happen.

Its not big deal, but its part of the overall thing I have been saying this whole time. Why do so many people complain about other people breaking the rules when they themselves break the rules just as much.

Why not, if you don't like it, just don't read it.

I just realized this like the TV show The Office...

22wrf aka Kevin the 'wifeholderbackerer', is just like Michael Scott on that show. No matter how irrelevat his reply is he must reply because he can not allow anyone to have the last word.

I just realized that ThomasMagnum cannot allow anyone to have the last word.

Kevin,

I refer to many people online by their given name, if I happen to know it. My given name (William) isn't a secret, and many people have referred to me by my given name in their posting on a regular basis.

I do NOT make a habit of posting anyone's full name, unless THEY THEMSELVES have previously posted such on an open Forum.

If you're going to try and be clever using my screen name get it correct. Its THOMASMAGNUM.
Thanks.

Fosteology

But I think that you would admit that the reason that you do not make it a habit to give out your full name is becasue you would not want other people investigating your private life and using it as ad hominem argument against you on a forum. And I think that you would agree that something like that is against even 24 hour's lax rules.

So why do people do it against Mr. Root, and others who they don't seem to like.

Why not just ignore the posts you don't like.

Thomasmagnum

I knew that you wouldn't be able to give anyone else the last word.

pot... kettle...

no, its you not being able to let anyone else have the last word.

Kevin's theme song.

Goddam, you really can't just STFU. If someone posts you just have to have the last post on the matter. Rather childish behavior from someone who is well beyond his teens.

more ad hominem. trying to detract from the fact that you can't let anyone else have the last word.

cool...

Another thing I didn't post
Ad hominem
and unfortunately I don't relate well to any other type of music than what they were playing in the 50s and 60's when I grew up.

Kevin?

another thing I didn't post
More ad hominem.

I'm sorry you feel this way Kevin. I hope your "friendly little cat" feels better soon...

more ad hominem

Oh come on Kevin you can do better than that.

Oh come on thomasmagnum, you can do better than that.

You see the difference here is that I am responding because I find it and you hilarious. While you are responding becuase you can't not do it....

Very common tactic. Tell everyone else something else in the hopes they believe you in order to shift or distract. Classic ad hominem.

The moment this ceases being entertaining I am done. Hope this isn't a blow to you self esteem Kev, but you are simply a distraction during my work day before a holiday weekend.

Well, I hope this does't blow your self esteem thomasmagnum, but I was thinking the same thing about you. A simple distraction on a friday afternoon.

So tell me Kevin. Why did you first say that you and your wife "hit each other", but then later say that she hit you and you merely held her back?
I mean that is a really bizarre turn of phrase to use if its not what you in fact meant.

More ad hominem.

So I guess you're not going to answer the question about your arrest for domestic violence. Fair enough.
Like I said you're lucky that it happened a while ago. Today that sort of thing could cost a person their firearms rights. Even misdemeanor domestic violence.

OF course for most folks I would venture that is never really a concern.

more ad hominem.

more ad hominem

more ad hominem

more ad hominem

more ad hominem

So when you "held her back from smacking you" did you do it with an open hand or did you go closed fist on her?

more ad hominem

You said that it only happened once, and that was was 28 years ago. So I am guessing either you learned a lesson, or she did.

more ad hominem

more ad hominem.

more ad hominem

Boy I bet 11i on the 4473 form gives you the willies though eh?...


Whew you dodged that bullet.

more ad hominem

I thought you were having fun Kevin. Just posting "more ad hominem" sure doesn't seem very fun. In fact it seems like a guy who is probably a bit perturbed, but doesn't want to give up the last word.

more ad hominem

So enough about your domestic violence arrest. Let talk about your failed political campaigns while running for seat as county judge.
So you ran everytime a seat was open from 1994 up to what 2006? You never won a single election during that time. So did sll those seats as judge stay with the incumbent candidate? Even the ones you didn't run for?

more ad hominem.

It seems more like "ad nauseum" to me, by now the dead horse you've been beating is little more than a sun-baked desiccated shell, but you keep on beating it in a useless attempt to prove what point?

I have already stated the point from the very begining. This thread isn't about me or anyone else. Its about Redfield scopes.

The fact that he got 100K votes in '94 concerns me. Of course this was also in a state that elected a pro wrassler governor, but still.

It's just "ad hominem," you know.

I have personally have no point here. I have just enjoyed myself seeing how far Kevin will go. I guess that probably reflects on just how bored I have been in my office today.

Oh well weekend is moments away.

Yeah but you gotta remember that was in first run. Probably before folks knew what a dick he was?.. is?... whatever.

ad hominem.

hahahah the [bleep] Energizer Bunny of posting "ad hominem"

ad hominem

Redfield scopes...

..think you're an azzhole too.

there you go.

True story I called them and asked.

good for you.

You are just as responsible for the thread hijacking.

You may not like it ( I know you don't), but should I come across Larry Root while reading a thread, I'm going to point him out. Irregardless of your thoughts and feelings on the matter, you're certainly not going to change or influence me.

To save yourself some grief, you may wish to take your own advice:

Fosteology
No, I am not as responsible for the thread hijaking. I do admit to being responsible for questioning why you attacked a poster who was talking about the subject matter of the thread.

I don't need you to tell me what advice I should follow.

You and your buddies don't like things other people do or say here and you attack. And all I am saying is people complain about others breaking the rules while they break the rules themselves.

Here, once again, are the rules.

Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire.


Personal Attacks are Ad Hominem.

Everyday those rules are broken hundreds and hundreds of times. But they are not enforced fairly, and most of the time not at all. And from what I could read about the whole deal, Mr. Root was kicked off here mostly because people just plain didn't like what he had to say. None of the other allegations against him has ever been proven, that I have been able to see.



There is no objective fair manner in which the rules are enforced on this site, or on AR, for that matter.

And by the way, here is the 24 hour privacy statement.

24hourcampfire.com, Inc. maintains a strict policy regarding customer information, credit card information, mailing lists, unsolicited e-mail, shopping-cart security, and how we conduct business in general.
1] Your patronage is very important to us. As such, we respect your privacy as we would desire our own privacy to be respected. We have never and will never directly divulge any information about any of our customers to anyone, unless specifically mandated by a law enforcement agency or court of law.

It would appear that 24 hours policy is to not divulge private information about anyone. I am sure that would include not divulging private information about members by members, as well. But it is not enforced.

Sure you are. You felt the need to jump in head first, and continue to fan the flames yourself.



As I questioned Larry Root as to why he's back yet again after being banned numerous times. Like I said, anytime I come across him, I'll point him out. Public service announcement.

I don't care if you approve or find it acceptable. Your opinion isn't relevant nor affects my decision.



Door swings both ways. You can shove your unsolicited "advice" where the sun don't shine.



At your age, you should have learned long ago that life isn't "fair".

You could always find another sand box to play in. Or start your own.

Laboring under the delusion that Internet Forums need or should conform to your way of thinking and sense of propriety is only going to cause you issues.

I posted after you. You started the flame, not me.
And you did the same thing on AR, which got me banned.

Thats no public service announcement. Its a vendeta against anyone that has been banned, including me.

Your right. Life isn't fair. But I can certainly try to make it more fair. I'll have to do a bit of digging to see if I can even things up.

See ya,

Larry Root is a POS [bleep]. There. settled.

Back to blaming anyone other than yourself again Kevin?

Are you a naturally occurring candy assed whiner, or have you spent years learning your craft? You are without a doubt one of the biggest bitch-ass wusses I've dealt with in recent memory on the Internet.

This topic has been beaten to death, and obviously nothing will get through your block head. So here's the bottom line:

The day you become the owner/admin./or moderator is the day I'll have to listen and abide with your rules.

No, actually, that would be the day that I would go elsewhere.

But since we both know none of that is going to happen, you'll just have to pound sand.

I'll give you last word (although I won't listen) as I know how important it is for you to have the final post....

Who is this Kevin person?

And I did a bit of searching on Larry Root, and other than being someone who apparently is....um...not very well liked on this forum, he is the co-authour of a book - "Guns That Talk - Firearms with a Unique History".

Fosteology

You just can't say anything about me without violating the rules you claim you want to enforce, can you.

(candy assed whiner, bitch ass wusses, blockhead,)

not my rules. 24 hours rules.
You claim to be enforcing The moderators ban of a person because that person broke the rules. Yet you break the rules.
Here are the rules

"Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire."

ARAC
If you want to know who I am, ask your fellow BC buddy Kutenay.
He knows me well.

Okay Jorge, I'll bite. Why do you say that. Because of something he did to you?

Lol...THAT grumpy old guy?

You will be that way sooner than you think.

Inside every old guy is a young guy thinking "What the f&ck happened?"

All I can say is enjoy British Columbia while your young.

yep.

Kevin's alternate theme song.


Sean Whasitooyah.
or Sean....Jesus [bleep] Christ....Whasitooyah. ( that says what kind of person I am )

hey everyone...follow the rules. Except the one about being told to leave here.

FORUM RULES

1] Please be respectful of other posters at all times. The ability to refrain from personal attacks, obscenities, and flame wars is a minimum requirement for a log at the Campfire.

2] Commercial and promotional posting privileges (including links and screen names) are reserved for paying advertisers. If you would like to market or promote your product or service, please contact us at [email protected]. Free Classifieds are provided as a service for private parties only.



Being asked to leave the site is not a rule. Rather, it is a determination by the owner that he/she does not want a person here for one reason or another (it could be a consequence of violating the rules, it could be something else). It is between the owner and the specific person who has been asked to leave, and is more in the nature of a trespass.

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen: Please, lets get back on track here.
No one enjoys a little cyber skirmish more than I but this innocent little thread has taken an ominous turn towards character assasination and tyranny!
SO.... in an effort to gain back some semblance of "sharing information and experiences" I would like to pass on this observation/experience that I was first hand witness to regaring older Redfields.
Both have coincidentally happened since I made the original posting.
Two friends of mine were bringing out of mothballs older Redfield scopes and both encountered the same malfunction!
The problem was the protective caps on the windage and elevation adjustment turrets became stuck/rusted to the adjustment mechanism and were so tightly stuck that when turned the adjustment mechanisms came loose and actually unscrewed from the scope body exposing the inner workings of the scope! And thus exposing the innards to the atmosphere (room air)!
This happened on a fixed 12 power Redfield and again on a fixed 4 power.
On the 12 power we were able to work the adjustments free from the scope cap but the 4 powers cap and adjustment mechanism are still soaking in Kroil penetrating oil.
I think a proper preventative measure on these older Redfields is to apply some lubricating oil from time to time to the scope cap threads, to keep them from sticking/rusting to the adjustment mechanism.
Anyone else observe this situation?
This is the first two incidents I have seen and puzzling that the two incidents would occur twice in such a short time.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy

How long were the Redfield scopes "in mothballs"? I think with any piece of mechanical equipment one is going to have issues with lubricants drying out.

I am thinking plastic caps Zeiss put on the Conquest might be to avoid this very issue. Just how long since the caps were last removed? I increasingly looking for pop up turret type models and wonder if anyone has ever had one of them lock up on them?

oh my, I had been plodding thru this thread and then came across this gem. this [bleep] is hilarious. my mon-tuesday aint been going nearly as poorly since I saw this

22WRF: One of the scopes was stored on a forgotten gun in a vehicles trunk for 2 years out in Washington state. We seperated the scope and Rifle 10 days ago and remounted the 4 power scope on a pump 22 last week - when we went to bore sight it the cap and adjustment mechanism were found to be "together"!
I am assuming both pieces in question are made of steel?
And some corrosion occurred making the torque to unscrew the cap more than the torque needed to unscrew the adjustment mechanism from the scope body.
By the way on the flat surface exposed when the adjustment mechanism came out there appeared to be a dried up brownish adhesive or sealant that obviously failed to "adhere".
I have several of these older Redfields and I am writing myself a note to lubricate the scope caps.
I am not sure how long the 12 power has been "dormant" but will find out.
I worry now about scope fogging now that the innards have been exposed to normal atmosphere (moist air)?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy