Hey guys, I spoke with Leupold, and they've spoken with me. I’m excited to announce that they want to respond to everything that's been discussed here in the threads, by hosting a Special-Edition Leupold Live Q&A, that is exclusively available to the members here at the 'Fire. Leupold company representatives will address the concerns that they’ve" heard" voiced on the threads here, and the live video platform will allow further questions to be submitted by all of you. This special event will begin at 5pm PST on Tuesday, July 9.
Further details will be posted, including how to launch the stream on your computer or mobile device, earlier on Tuesday.
Please tune in and let's voice the concerns and issues and work with them in this great interactive session on Tuesday.
Have a great day.
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Thank you for your continued support. If there is anything else that I can assist you with please let me know. Doug Camera Land 720 Old Bethpage Road Old Bethpage, NY 11804 516-217-1000 Please visit our web site @ www.cameralandny.com Cameras,Binoculars, Spotting Scopes, Rifle Scopes | Camera Land NY Long Islands Largest Camera and Sports Optics Superstore[color:#CC0000][/color]
That's on my lodges stated meeting night and I have to be there at 6:30 P.M. But I'll try and catch the beginning. I really have no qualms with Leupold. I own a bunch of their products and I'm very happy with them having never experienced some of the grief I've seen on here. To me they're as clear as my eyes can benefit from, they're sturdy, and they're light. I don't do any knob twisting in the field so tracking isn't that big a deal for me. But I read that Leupold had strengthened the erector on the new VX-3is which was done to improve tracking. I zeroed 3 of them and they tracked as well as any scope I've seen.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
Great suggestion. Other wise the Leupold haters will just turn it into a cluster___.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
This is an excellent suggestion. At the very least it will keep our question on point being asked by a pre-selected few Fire members.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
Great suggestion. Other wise the Leupold haters will just turn it into a cluster___.
Or the guys who’ve never had a problem with a Leupold will turn it into a kumbaya recital about how great their scopes are, and nothing of value will be accomplished.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
This is an excellent suggestion. At the very least it will keep our question on point being asked by a pre-selected few Fire members.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
Great suggestion. Other wise the Leupold haters will just turn it into a cluster___.
Or the guys who’ve never had a problem with a Leupold will turn it into a kumbaya recital about how great their scopes are, and nothing of value will be accomplished.
Who is moderating the session? Who determines what questions are answered? If Leupold is in charge of the whole exchange and not a neutral third party, it may prove difficult to get answers for the tough questions.
We should try and come together as a community with a short list of questions that we would really like answered, otherwise there’s likely to be a lot of random crap and/or softball questions thrown out there which may detract from the session. Either vote on a set of questions (possibly set up a poll on this forum), or appoint someone or a couple someones who have their ducks in a row to act as our voice. Probably not enough consensus here to get anything like what I just wrote accomplished, but it’s worth a shot.
I think this is the way to approach it. Gotta have Formid in there since he's the guy who's seen the most samples and the most failures. He would have the data to back it up.
Please try to get your scopes to be more reliable when their elevation and windage turrets are turned.
Thanks for putting great glass in your scopes, thanks for making them light weight, thanks for giving them the best eye relief, thanks for making them good looking, etc.
Please try to get your scopes to be more reliable when their elevation and windage turrets are turned.
Thanks for putting great glass in your scopes, thanks for making them light weight, thanks for giving them the best eye relief, thanks for making them good looking, etc.
Leupold has a VX -6 that was a replacement for a MK 4 that puked 3 times on its way back. I’d rather shoot peep sights than have another busted leupold to mail back.
if you add freight back to the joke and headaches Nightforce’s are Cheap.
I do hope adults show up here and spare any childishness or inconsiderate outbursts or nothing will be accomplished. Leupold agreed to enter the bear's den, which does take moral courage. Give them a chance to answer the issues... factual issues that people with real world experience are having, not heresay.
Part of the concern revolves around engineering/construction. In a typical failure analysis you need failed samples that have been thru a root cause analysis then you can re-engineer to eliminate that failure in the future.
I don’t know if our guys have that intimate knowledge of the internals.
Just saying they don’t hold zero or dial correctly isn’t likely to get far...
I am rooting for Leupold big time. They make some models that no one else can touch for size, weight, eye relief, etc. The perceived deficiencies are by now well documented, so I don't expect they are going to encounter any big surprises. Give me a 2.5-8x36 with solid internals, and I am a happy guy.
Since Rick locked down the thread (why?) here's another.
Zero retention Consistent tracking Return to zero Inconsistent turret values
Its that simple. Leupold already knows this. They've been told by many other sources much more "qualified" than us, and deny it. There needs to be no conference call. All we need to know is what Leupold is doing to address it.
Would be nice to hear Leupold's deal with discontinuing a bunch of their gloss finish scopes, as well as the Long Range Duplex and 6x36. Also, why there's a cheeseburger on the front page of their site, instead of...ya know, a Leupold. Their website in general is absolute garbage.
I second the notion their website could use some improvement. Why not a search by magnification menu? Also, the immediate pop-up shut down my first search just now, and had to start over. Clicking and scrolling for several pages is aggravating. Another neat feature would be an archive of specifications for previous generations of scopes.
Since Rick locked down the thread (why?) here's another.
Zero retention Consistent tracking Return to zero Inconsistent turret values
Its that simple. Leupold already knows this. They've been told by many other sources much more "qualified" than us, and deny it. There needs to be no conference call. All we need to know is what Leupold is doing to address it.
I’m hoping the topic stays on the above issues that have been beaten to death here for a long time...
Not, why did the price go up for a reticle change out, or are you bringing back hi-gloss....😎
This Leupold discussion has been, if nothing else, interesting. I get the distinct impression that the commonly documented issues are seemingly felt to be due to poor engineering. I think the more serious and problematic issue is that of Leupold's corporate philosophy and the direction given by the corporate segment to the product marketing, sales, product development, and production segments of the business is where the root of the problem is located. Scopes are nothing new and how to build a proper erector system and turret operations are no big engineering secret. I once had a long conversation with a then soon to be retired patent holding optical engineer who had worked for Leupold for a long time. He was with another company when I talked to him, but suffice it to say he had nothing but scorn for the corporate bean counters. It is my opinion that the engineers are likely pretty tired of sending a design up the line only to have the bean counters make it cheaper somewhere in order to widen a profit margin.Not saying it is all of the problem, but probably a greater issue than poor engineering.
I think the most significant post of the big thread was dirt farmer's post of Leupold nearly turning down multi million dollar military contract because of fear their scopes could be used to kill people. That is not the first place I have seen that, and because it is on the internet does not make it true, but that better be addressed, because if true Leupold is a dead man walking.
So two questions I'd like to ask are:
Is there any truth to the military contract discussion?
Would Leupold let their engineers design a properly engineered scope and have the beans counters be told to lay off the "make it cheaper " mantra? Let's see what can be produced. Let the prototype out to folks like Formiidosus to be wrung out beforehand.
I'm 71 and have used Leupold stuff for most of of my hunting years. It pains me a lot to see some of this. But I think where there is smoke there is likely some fire.
Thanks to Doug for having the desire and ability to tackle this issue.
This Leupold discussion has been, if nothing else, interesting. I get the distinct impression that the commonly documented issues are seemingly felt to be due to poor engineering. I think the more serious and problematic issue is that of Leupold's corporate philosophy and the direction given by the corporate segment to the product marketing, sales, product development, and production segments of the business is where the root of the problem is located. Scopes are nothing new and how to build a proper erector system and turret operations are no big engineering secret. I once had a long conversation with a then soon to be retired patent holding optical engineer who had worked for Leupold for a long time. He was with another company when I talked to him, but suffice it to say he had nothing but scorn for the corporate bean counters. It is my opinion that the engineers are likely pretty tired of sending a design up the line only to have the bean counters make it cheaper somewhere in order to widen a profit margin.Not saying it is all of the problem, but probably a greater issue than poor engineering.
I think the most significant post of the big thread was dirt farmer's post of Leupold nearly turning down multi million dollar military contract because of fear their scopes could be used to kill people. That is not the first place I have seen that, and because it is on the internet does not make it true, but that better be addressed, because if true Leupold is a dead man walking.
So two questions I'd like to ask are:
Is there any truth to the military contract discussion?
Would Leupold let their engineers design a properly engineered scope and have the beans counters be told to lay off the "make it cheaper " mantra? Let's see what can be produced. Let the prototype out to folks like Formiidosus to be wrung out beforehand.
I'm 71 and have used Leupold stuff for most of of my hunting years. It pains me a lot to see some of this. But I think where there is smoke there is likely some fire.
Thanks to Doug for having the desire and ability to tackle this issue.
This information confirms the same I was told by two people who also worked and retired from Leupold. Continuing attempts to “gaslight” current and former Leupold owners about such problems won’t help the situation...
Maybe we’re all stupid, missing the point that selling scopes that don’t perform correctly is the best way to drive additional sales. I slept through that marketing class apparently...😎
I think the more serious and problematic issue is that of Leupold's corporate philosophy and the direction given by the corporate segment to the product marketing, sales, product development, and production segments of the business is where the root of the problem is located.
BINGO!
If some here remember, some years back we had a friendly debate about Leupold hiring a non- sportsman business man to lead them.
I think the most significant post of the big thread was dirt farmer's post of Leupold nearly turning down multi million dollar military contract because of fear their scopes could be used to kill people. That is not the first place I have seen that, and because it is on the internet does not make it true, but that better be addressed, because if true Leupold is a dead man walking.
So two questions I'd like to ask are:
Is there any truth to the military contract discussion?
Thanks to Doug for having the desire and ability to tackle this issue.
Steve,
I researched and reported that as I found it. From what I learned, the family holds a major chunk of Leopold stock, enough to be a force on the board..
Fred Leopold and his BIL, founded the precursor to Leupold Optics in 1907. I would think family are now in their 4th, maybe 5th generations. Privileged, West Coast Millennials are probably snowflakes, based on this research and assuming it's true.. Just guessing, but you wouldn't want to bet against it.
Asking an employee who is brave enough to step into the lion's den here on the Fire, such a question may not be a good move.
If the family has that much stroke, you think a PR employee, sent here to put out fires, is gonna give us a heart felt, unvarnished answer to that question. I doubt it. I wouldn't if in his shoes, doubt you would either.
IMO, we need to keep our questions focused on tracking and holding zero. If we can get something done, at lesat an acknowledgement of problems, we've had a successful encounter. If Fire members go native on this guy, it's gonna cancel Doug's efforts and tarnish his good will with them, which benefits no one. And, the more hostile the Fire becomes, the easier it's going to be for Leupold to deflect and not own up to these issues. Instead of them being at fault, we're gong to be the "heavies". Those left leaning millennials on the board will just have their stereotyped thinking about us confirmed with nothing accomplished.
When Leupold signs on Tuesday, I want some biographical information on their rep or reps. I want to know that they are sending someone who understands scopes rather than a PR rep.
When Leupold signs on Tuesday, I want some biographical information on their rep or reps. I want to know that they are sending someone who understands scopes rather than a PR rep.
I'm guess a PR type. We'll see what he knows, won't take long.
In the interest of time during the Q&A; The reason you can no longer have your ridiculously low-priced $80 reticle swap (or whatever it was for eons) is because the juice no longer justified the squeeze. How Leupold was able to process, swap the reticle and ship it back for that price for so long is a wonderment.
In the interest of time during the Q&A; The reason you can no longer have your ridiculously low-priced $80 reticle swap (or whatever it was for eons) is because the juice no longer justified the squeeze. How Leupold was able to process, swap the reticle and ship it back for that price for so long is a wonderment.
Probably the "bean counters" asked that same question.
Everything in America is built under “planned failure just outside warranty”, which has created our present throw-away-economy that every large present day Manufacture’s business plan is built on. Six-Sigma, On-Time inventory, and number of times you turn inventory, has become the objective over lasting quality, and removed the pride-in-craftsmanship America was built on.
Gone are the days where 30, 40, 50, et al. year old heirlooms (Rifles w/ scopes) will be passed down with stories to children and grandchildren in the future, because nothing these days lasts hardly ten years, much less one generation.
The costs of warranty are now factored into the cost of the product, whereas in generations past, you never heard the word “warranty”, because quality Made in the U.S.A. goods lasted...and lasted…and lasted. Present day manufactures walk a very thin line, because they know one small mistake of making their product “too” cheap will create a snowball that will steamroll the warranty numbers, sending them into the red, and how good their Balance Sheet is determines whether they are able to re-engineer the problem, fight the PR nightmare from a failed product and win their customers back, and ultimately whether they remain in business.
When your product is being purchased with the public’s discretionary income, you won’t remain in business if you steal from their wallets with a cheap quality product, because you will lose in the PR campaign.
Placing Made in the U.S.A. on your product in this day and time is just a marketing scheme to brainwash the public into believing it has the same craftsmanship and quality of generations past…but we all know it is just one big façade with the majority of high-production products…unfortunately.
The Outdoorsmen of America have put Leupold into check. It is now up to Leupold whether they can escape being put into Checkmate (out of business).
I would only ask Leupold one single question, “Thanks for coming. Please tell us why we should buy your product.” They know what their problems are, and they wouldn’t be coming here unless the bad PR was really getting to their numbers. I would just quietly sit back, and listen to how they plan on solving their issues. Your questions will not sway them one way or the other. They will either change their company philosophy, and start building a quality product again, or go the way of other products who attempted the un-American cheap-quality-business-plan-route to ultimately lose in the end.
The more you let them spend the time talking, without being flooded with questions, the more you’ll have to evaluate whether it was honest and truthful. Look at this like the 24hourcommunity are VC’s with the money (your discretionary income), and Leupold is coming here to ask you to invest. If they don’t make a sound case with supporting facts, they don’t get their needed investment money (your discretionary income).
Everything in America is built under “planned failure just outside warranty”, which has created our present throw-away-economy that every large present day Manufacture’s business plan is built on. Six-Sigma, On-Time inventory, and number of times you turn inventory, has become the objective over lasting quality, and removed the pride-in-craftsmanship America was built on.
Gone are the days where 30, 40, 50, et al. year old heirlooms (Rifles w/ scopes) will be passed down with stories to children and grandchildren in the future, because nothing these days lasts hardly ten years, much less one generation.
The costs of warranty are now factored into the cost of the product, whereas in generations past, you never heard the word “warranty”, because quality Made in the U.S.A. goods lasted...and lasted…and lasted. Present day manufactures walk a very thin line, because they know one small mistake of making their product “too” cheap will create a snowball that will steamroll the warranty numbers, sending them into the red, and how good their Balance Sheet is determines whether they are able to re-engineer the problem, fight the PR nightmare from a failed product and win their customers back, and ultimately whether they remain in business.
When your product is being purchased with the public’s discretionary income, you won’t remain in business if you steal from their wallets with a cheap quality product, because you will lose in the PR campaign.
Placing Made in the U.S.A. on your product in this day and time is just a marketing scheme to brainwash the public into believing it has the same craftsmanship and quality of generations past…but we all know it is just one big façade with the majority of high-production products…unfortunately.
The Outdoorsmen of America have put Leupold into check. It is now up to Leupold whether they can escape being put into Checkmate (out of business).
I would only ask Leupold one single question, “Thanks for coming. Please tell us why we should buy your product.” They know what their problems are, and they wouldn’t be coming here unless the bad PR was really getting to their numbers. I would just quietly sit back, and listen to how they plan on solving their issues. Your questions will not sway them one way or the other. They will either change their company philosophy, and start building a quality product again, or go the way of other products who attempted the un-American cheap-quality-business-plan-route to ultimately lose in the end.
The more you let them spend the time talking, without being flooded with questions, the more you’ll have to evaluate whether it was honest and truthful. Look at this like the 24hourcommunity are VC’s with the money (your discretionary income), and Leupold is coming here to ask you to invest. If they don’t make a sound case with supporting facts, they don’t get their needed investment money (your discretionary income).
Everything in America is built under “planned failure just outside warranty”, which has created our present throw-away-economy that every large present day Manufacture’s business plan is built on. Six-Sigma, On-Time inventory, and number of times you turn inventory, has become the objective over lasting quality, and removed the pride-in-craftsmanship America was built on.
Gone are the days where 30, 40, 50, et al. year old heirlooms (Rifles w/ scopes) will be passed down with stories to children and grandchildren in the future, because nothing these days lasts hardly ten years, much less one generation.
The costs of warranty are now factored into the cost of the product, whereas in generations past, you never heard the word “warranty”, because quality Made in the U.S.A. goods lasted...and lasted…and lasted. Present day manufactures walk a very thin line, because they know one small mistake of making their product “too” cheap will create a snowball that will steamroll the warranty numbers, sending them into the red, and how good their Balance Sheet is determines whether they are able to re-engineer the problem, fight the PR nightmare from a failed product and win their customers back, and ultimately whether they remain in business.
When your product is being purchased with the public’s discretionary income, you won’t remain in business if you steal from their wallets with a cheap quality product, because you will lose in the PR campaign.
Placing Made in the U.S.A. on your product in this day and time is just a marketing scheme to brainwash the public into believing it has the same craftsmanship and quality of generations past…but we all know it is just one big façade with the majority of high-production products…unfortunately.
The Outdoorsmen of America have put Leupold into check. It is now up to Leupold whether they can escape being put into Checkmate (out of business).
I would only ask Leupold one single question, “Thanks for coming. Please tell us why we should buy your product.” They know what their problems are, and they wouldn’t be coming here unless the bad PR was really getting to their numbers. I would just quietly sit back, and listen to how they plan on solving their issues. Your questions will not sway them one way or the other. They will either change their company philosophy, and start building a quality product again, or go the way of other products who attempted the un-American cheap-quality-business-plan-route to ultimately lose in the end.
The more you let them spend the time talking, without being flooded with questions, the more you’ll have to evaluate whether it was honest and truthful. Look at this like the 24hourcommunity are VC’s with the money (your discretionary income), and Leupold is coming here to ask you to invest. If they don’t make a sound case with supporting facts, they don’t get their needed investment money (your discretionary income).
Very well said .
Yah, he speaks fluent moron. For phucqk's sake write something based upon fact and not a bunch of bullchit.
In the interest of time during the Q&A; The reason you can no longer have your ridiculously low-priced $80 reticle swap (or whatever it was for eons) is because the juice no longer justified the squeeze. How Leupold was able to process, swap the reticle and ship it back for that price for so long is a wonderment.
Probably the "bean counters" asked that same question.
Thus, a new policy.
DF
I always enjoy the "blame the bean counters" talk. They take direction from the person running the company just as the engineering and manufacturing department heads do.
That was the beauty of Ruger back when ole Bill was CEO. He told the bean counters what to do. Went with his instincts, not what marketing types were saying. Otherwise doubt we’d have the #1 and such. If he liked a product he built it. We tended to like what he liked. The rest is history.
I applaud Doug’s initiative, but I despise conference calls and online meetings and since I’m retired I don’t have to subject myself to folks talking over each other trying to out talk the others. I’ll skip the War and Peace version and wait for the Readers Digest version here on the Fire. I’d be happy if I could predict the mean time between failures of the Leupold scopes that I own! LOL!
The more you let them spend the time talking, without being flooded with questions, the more you’ll have to evaluate whether it was honest and truthful. Look at this like the 24hourcommunity are VC’s with the money (your discretionary income), and Leupold is coming here to ask you to invest. If they don’t make a sound case with supporting facts, they don’t get their needed investment money (your discretionary income).
I disagree. Strongly at that. They need to be presented with a controllable number of questions that speak to the heart of the issue. If the conversation were mine to launch, I'd launch it as such.
Me to Leupold: "In reading the recent Leupold thread here on the 'fire, the central issue seems to be that customers aren't happy with the results they get when they adjust the dials on their Leupold scopes." Is that what you take away from the discussion?"
Once you establish whether Leupold believes those customers, you can move forward.
If Leupold doesn't see that as the central issue or they don't believe those customer complaints, the conversation stops.
Once you establish that Leupold understands that unpredictable or unreliable adjustments to be the customer's central complaint and believes those customers are really having those issues, the conversation turns to what Leopold is going to do to correct the issue.
This schidt is remarkably simple. The last thing Leupold needs is a barrage of idiotic questions that don't focus like a laser on the real issue.
Why did you only offer $12/hour for a swingshift CNC lathe operator positions in 2007? How the hell do you suppose someone could possibly live on that in Beaverton?
I have used your scopes for 50 years and never had a problem. I am not a sniper. I love you.
The FireDot is pure awesomeness. I love you.
Bushnell is making scopes that function better than yours. How does this make you feel?
I used up a bunch of cartridge components trying to establish zero and the damned scope's adjustmens seem random at best. How can I now trust this scope to reliably function in the field?
When trade relations were normalized with communist China, did you, or did you not start sourcing parts there?
How has the legalization of medical and now recreational marijuana in Oregon effected your quality control?
Why do your scope tubes dent so easily? Are they made from soda and beer cans?
Why don't you offer the 42mm Alumina flip up cap for older 6x42s?
I only shoot moa rifles at 100 yards and never criticality test my equipment. I love you.
[quote=Dirtfarmer]CEO may be a bean counter for all I know.
That was the beauty of Ruger back when ole Bill was CEO. He told the bean counters what to do. Went with his instincts, not what marketing types were saying. Otherwise doubt we’d have the #1 and such. If he liked a product he built it. We tended to like what he liked. The rest is history.
Why did you only offer $12/hour for a swingshift CNC lathe operator positions in 2007? How the hell do you suppose someone could possibly live on that in Beaverton?
I have used your scopes for 50 years and never had a problem. I am not a sniper. I love you.
The FireDot is pure awesomeness. I love you.
Bushnell is making scopes that function better than yours. How does this make you feel?
I used up a bunch of cartridge components trying to establish zero and the damned scope's adjustmens seem random at best. How can I now trust this scope to reliably function in the field?
When trade relations were normalized with communist China, did you, or did you not start sourcing parts there?
How has the legalization of medical and now recreational marijuana in Oregon effected your quality control?
Why do your scope tubes dent so easily? Are they made from soda and beer cans?
Why don't you offer the 42mm Alumina flip up cap for older 6x42s?
I only shoot moa rifles at 100 yards and never criticality test my equipment. I love you.
Do any of Freds third generation offspring ever show up and actually work?
When you reintroduced your former competitor's Redfield name and strongly promoted they're Made in the USA, it was kinda cool. When you then brought out imported half-assed Redfields it was not really cool. The 2-7 Revolution is pretty dandy, just a little upgrade on the "glass" would make it a winner.
All that said, why such cheesy eye cups on the otherwise excellent Yosemite 6x30 binocular? It's hard to take you seriously when you let chit like this slide. AT LEAST YOU HAVE NOT DISCONTINUED THE MODEL YET. Just a matter of time though isn't it?
What possible scenario is Wide Duplex ideal for in the 6x42? Shooting barn doors? It's hard to take you serious. Do you ever hunt? If you do, is it for barn doors? It's really a stupid reticle choice for the matte 6x42. Sales slow on that model? No chit.
The FireDot is absolutely wonderful execution. If you made a 6x42 with FireDot Duplex, that was deadnuts reliable, I'd love you longtime.
When you reintroduced your former competitor's Redfield name and strongly promoted they're Made in the USA, it was kinda cool. When you then brought out imported half-assed Redfields it was not really cool. The 2-7 Revolution is pretty dandy, just a little upgrade on the "glass" would make it a winner.
All that said, why such cheesy eye cups on the otherwise excellent Yosemite 6x30 binocular? It's hard to take you seriously when you let chit like this slide. AT LEAST YOU HAVE NOT DISCONTINUED THE MODEL YET. Just a matter of time though isn't it?
What possible scenario is Wide Duplex ideal for in the 6x42? Shooting barn doors? It's hard to take you serious. Do you ever hunt? If you do, is it for barn doors? It's really a stupid reticle choice for the matte 6x42. Sales slow on that model? No chit.
The FireDot is absolutely wonderful execution. If you made a 6x42 with FireDot Duplex, that was deadnuts reliable, I'd love you longtime.
If this is what's gonna happen, we're wasting our time, their time, undermining Doug's influence with them. He's gone out on a limb at ouir request.
Their into their 5th generation of family ownership/influence.
They're a big home grown company, 700 employees, reportedly $160 Mil in annual revenue.
The fact they're sending someone to discuss issues is good news,
We need to cover core topics and stay out of the weeds,
Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, according to my Dad, who preached this to me as a youngster.
Kinda think the old man may have been onto something...
That was the beauty of Ruger back when ole Bill was CEO. He told the bean counters what to do. Went with his instincts, not what marketing types were saying. Otherwise doubt we’d have the #1 and such. If he liked a product he built it. We tended to like what he liked. The rest is history.
DF
The CEO works for the shareholders. I suspect Ruger is making a tad more money since the old man croaked.
OK, as one dirt farmer to another, here is my response as requested. I think the problem is not so much a technical or engineering problem. I think the problem. as far as it actually exists is more of a corporate policy issue. I tend to think Leupold engineers can probably design a functional and reliable erector and turret system. So as to the question I said I'd like to see asked about the military contract issue. Te question would likely never be answered. I'd like to see it asked to gauge reaction. However, this whole effort of Doug's hinges in just who Leupold sends to this party. If not somebody (or more than one somebody) with enough clout to seriously effect corporate consideration, this won't go anywhere. My idea is that the corporate outlook and direction is really the 800# Gorilla in the room. We can tiptoe around it and try not to anger it, but it is the force, and it is there. Liking to see the question is one thing, asking it is another. It would be nice to somehow be able to gain some insight into just what corporate policy is.
I see, and agree with, the point in keeping the discussion on the oft mentioned issues, but we can talk about technical and engineering issues. We can get agreement on erector systems, we can agree on turret movement issues, we can agree on zero retention, lack of reliability in the turret twisting and anything else. It won't matter a bit if we cant get buy in from corporate level.
Woops. Didn’t mean to lock anything down. Just made it a global announcement. Let me see if I can fix and merge.
I’d written a lengthy and thoughtful response summarizing my comments regarding Leupold from the last several years. I was then unable to post it, since you’d locked down this thread as an “announcement “. While mulling over starting a separate thread, it disappeared into the ether.
I’m glad to hear that your locking down the thread was unintentional.
Woops. Didn’t mean to lock anything down. Just made it a global announcement. Let me see if I can fix and merge.
I’d written a lengthy and thoughtful response summarizing my comments regarding Leupold from the last several years. I was then unable to post it, since you’d locked down this thread as an “announcement “. While mulling over starting a separate thread, it disappeared into the ether.
I’m glad to hear that your locking down the thread was unintentional.
Hate when that happens. If you have a long post in the future, consider copying/pasting it into a text file with notepad or similar.
Woops. Didn’t mean to lock anything down. Just made it a global announcement. Let me see if I can fix and merge.
I’d written a lengthy and thoughtful response summarizing my comments regarding Leupold from the last several years. I was then unable to post it, since you’d locked down this thread as an “announcement “. While mulling over starting a separate thread, it disappeared into the ether.
I’m glad to hear that your locking down the thread was unintentional.
Hate when that happens. If you have a long post in the future, consider copying/pasting it into a text file with notepad or similar.
This is good advice and a practice I use. In this case, I thought I had. Oh well.
I appreciate Doug’s effort but what the hell is a live stream Q&A going to accomplish.
Campfire member to Leupold...
Mr Leupold I have sent back many different scopes that would not track properly or retain zero, wasted umteen hours of my time with handloads and trips to the range only to determine that once again one of your scopes has gone tits up! I have decided to use a scope from another manufacture that actually tracks accurately
Leupold to Campfire member....
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..
I don’t see where they have to hear that over and over and over, just build a damn scope that tracks and holds zero, Jesus this ain’t rocket science.
And who believes Leupold is going to publicly admit they have a problem? A previous poster implied “We can agree on these problems,etc, etc.” No, on an open forum they can’t and will not.
Not directed at anyone specifically but there sure are a lot of assumptions being made.
This is what has happened to America. Assuming and people piling on whether it is scopes or tires. At the end of the discussion, I will bet Leupold continues to sell thousands of scopes to people that aren’t on the Campfire and will thank the Campfire for it’s input.
If Leupold sells that many scopes that don’t work, you would think it would show up unilaterally through consumers. I haven’t had the problems that the Campfire has with Leupold, but I have switched almost entirely to Swarovski, so I can’t ad to the educated discussion.
Whether or not there is any change will remain to be seen. I believe this squeaky wheel will get greased. My guess is grease isn’t what the Campfire is looking for...
We're pleased to announce that our numbers show an insignificant return ratio and failure analysis implicates misuse as the leading contributing factor to those failures. Our chit just don't stink. (MtnBoomer, we really thought the $12/hour offer in 2007 was generous since we figured you lived in your mom's basement. ZING.)
Not directed at anyone specifically but there sure are a lot of assumptions being made.
This is what has happened to America. Assuming and people piling on whether it is scopes or tires. At the end of the discussion, I will bet Leupold continues to sell thousands of scopes to people that aren’t on the Campfire and will thank the Campfire for it’s input.
If Leupold sells that many scopes that don’t work, you would think it would show up unilaterally through consumers. I haven’t had the problems that the Campfire has with Leupold, but I have switched almost entirely to Swarovski, so I can’t ad to the educated discussion.
Whether or not there is any change will remain to be seen. I believe this squeaky wheel will get greased. My guess is grease isn’t what the Campfire is looking for...
I highly doubt Doug who is a major distributor of optics would have posted a thread on Leupold without certain criteria being met.
1. He would have had to talk with Leupold directly first and my guess is the conversation was about why his order for Leupold scopes was dwindling.
2. Doug and Leupold would have had to reach an agreement for Doug to approach campfire members because yes he is a major distributor and major distributors don't just start random threads discussing who there in business with
It's more than obvious Leupold is having a serious problem and if they don't get it sorted there future is at stake.
When is the gloss freaking black option coming back as a standard feature without having to pay $250 extra????????? Seriously!!!!!!!!!!
Say you have your own business. And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version. How long until you probably just say to hell with the shiny widgets?
When is the gloss freaking black option coming back as a standard feature without having to pay $250 extra????????? Seriously!!!!!!!!!!
Say you have your own business. And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version. How long until you probably just say to hell with the shiny widgets?
I can see that. But what about that dang wide duplex? Is it really what people wanted?
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
What if they found out that the matte finish was cheaper to produce.
How much of a premium would you be willing to pay for gloss...
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
That's not a bad idea. But then there'd be grumbling because it's not offered in XX.
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
That's not a bad idea. But then there'd be grumbling because it's not offered in XX.
What if they found out that the matte finish was cheaper to produce.
How much of a premium would you be willing to pay for gloss...
I have no doubt that the matte finish is cheaper to produce than the gloss. But...........technology has advanced quite a bit in say the last 20 years. Throw some powder coat on one or something - just make it shiny. The custom shop can make darn near any color you want, and they're all the same price as the gloss black finish that was the standard for so long. As for how much I'd pay extra for gloss??? Hmm.....not much if any and sure as heck not $250.
There's a market out there for someone willing to put forth the effort.
When is the gloss freaking black option coming back as a standard feature without having to pay $250 extra????????? Seriously!!!!!!!!!!
Say you have your own business. And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version. How long until you probably just say to hell with the shiny widgets?
I can see that. But what about that dang wide duplex? Is it really what people wanted?
In nine years of painstaking devotion to the forum, best I can recall there's been one guy who's said he likes it.... LOL
I highly doubt Doug who is a major distributor of optics would have posted a thread on Leupold without certain criteria being met.
1. He would have had to talk with Leupold directly first and my guess is the conversation was about why his order for Leupold scopes was dwindling.
2. Doug and Leupold would have had to reach an agreement for Doug to approach campfire members because yes he is a major distributor and major distributors don't just start random threads discussing who there in business with
It's more than obvious Leupold is having a serious problem and if they don't get it sorted there future is at stake.
I highly doubt Doug who is a major distributor of optics would have posted a thread on Leupold without certain criteria being met.
1. He would have had to talk with Leupold directly first and my guess is the conversation was about why his order for Leupold scopes was dwindling.
2. Doug and Leupold would have had to reach an agreement for Doug to approach campfire members because yes he is a major distributor and major distributors don't just start random threads discussing who there in business with
It's more than obvious Leupold is having a serious problem and if they don't get it sorted there future is at stake.
Trystan
You are truly a dumbphucqk.
Never difficult interrupting what Boomer is saying...😂😎
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
That's not a bad idea. But then there'd be grumbling because it's not offered in XX.
As I said on the live chat, Leupold basically gave a marketing presentation. I have a bunch of Leupold scopes and they are great in many ways, but there is no doubt that the tracking could be improved. They seem unwilling to discuss this issue.
Well, that was interesting, and I'm glad Leupold did that.
Ya, some questions went without answer. Happens.
Maybe this will lead to improvement? I dunno. Only had a problem with one Leupold scope, 20 years ago. They fixed it twice, for free. No problems before or since.
But... I know other folks who have had problems. Doggone it!
Green bear shirt guy didn't have much to say, but could that other guy learn to speak without every other word being 'uhh' or 'umm'? What a waste of time. It is obvious they think things are peachy, and are unwilling to address the concerns. I reckon that rather than gaining me back, they drove me further towards bushnell elite tacticals, nightforce and SWFA. Sorry deal, but thanks to Rick, Doug and leupold for even bothering to do this.
Leupold does not care, nor will they do anything about it. They have repeatedly denied that they have issues even to military organizations, all but calling people liars- then when forced to see the failures first hand make every excuse in the book, swear they’ll fix it... and nothing happens.
If anyone wants a summary, this is it, as predicted by Formi weeks ago in Doug's first thread.
I think they saw the questions but only addressed what they wanted to. Once they did their spiel about tracking they didn't want to talk more about it.
Yes they were seeing the live chat, but ignoring most of it.
Leupold made it sound like there wasn’t a lot of questions from Fire Members...Then I figured out the right buttom to press to submit a question and could see the list of questions. There was a long list of people asking questions.
Leupold should have left it alone. They just lost more customers and made it worse.
Calling folks who shoot alot idiots for having issues with their scopes is not a good marketing strategy but that's what their marketing guy just said....
It was bad. Felt like show and tell, with a little of send it in and we will talk about it or send me a serial number... wished I recorded those scopes serials.
Leupold should have left it alone. They just lost more customers and made it worse.
Calling folks who shoot alot idiots for having issues with their scopes is not a good marketing strategy but that's what their marketing guy just said....
Leupold should have left it alone. They just lost more customers and made it worse.
Calling folks who shoot alot idiots for having issues with their scopes is not a good marketing strategy but that's what their marketing guy just said....
I have to agree. I have a bunch of Leupold scopes and mostly they have served me well for hunting. But the tracking is often inconsistent which can make zeroing a pain.
They seem to have no interest in addressing this. I have an SWFA 10x on an accurate AR-15 and it has no such problems. They seem to have themselves convinced that there are no tracking issues. This is no way to get more customers among serious shooters.
That’s a tough position for them to be in. If a video of them confessing that scopes didn’t track was recorded tonight how long do you think they’d be employed? I think they did what they could do, which was stress to call them and talk to them about issues.
That’s a tough position for them to be in. If a video of them confessing that scopes didn’t track was recorded tonight how long do you think they’d be employed? I think they did what they could do, which was stress to call them and talk to them about issues.
I would’ve been cool with them just listening to the problems were having and saying they’d look into them... they didn’t care about listening as much as telling us why there were no problems.
I don't own a lot of Leupold stuff. I have a VX7 that's served me well thus far, but I set-and-forget it and don't dial it.
When they were planning to launch the VX6, it was supposed to come out in the spring. Makes sense for a hunting scope. I called. Yep, spring.
Then June. Then July, then September. I called several times to get an update because I was putting a rifle setup together and wanted a VX6 for it.
I got much of what we saw on that livestream in the personalized version on their sales/support line even way back then.
Finally I gave up and got the VX7 on a closeout from Midway.
As was said on the livestream by several members, I WANT to like Leupold. I was hoping to see something that made me feel better about them and their product.
I got the impression the Leupold gentlemen are so saturated with company doctrine that they just don't get it, nor will they until they leave the company and actually do some serious shooting without Leupold propaganda running in their veins. I've had over 30 Leupold scopes and over half of them shift point of impact when the variable power ring is turned to another setting. It's a shame, I'd love to love their products.
Dang, I missed it!!! I didn't even know this went down until just now. Damn!! Being from Oregon, there are still a lot of people here that think Leupold is better than sliced bread. However, those people really don't shoot much, and they for damn sure don't dial and shoot further than point blank range. For some reason Leupold is convinced they don't have problems or they think they can just pull the wool over everyone's eyes. For those of us that shoot a lot, we know better. Generally when we have had multiple failures from Leupold or any other brand, we make the switch to a better product. By better I don't mean spending tons of money on glass either. SWFA is one that a lot of us go to because we know they offer reliable and accurate tracking with good solid internals. When we want to step up to a nice piece of glass with excellent tracking (like the SWFA), we look into Nightforce. It's just the way the cookie generally crumbles...
I absolutely love everything about the 6x42 except the reliability and the wide duplex. But, my failure rate over time of Leuopold scopes not holding zero to the point of moving 12" plus from shot-to-shot is probably 25-30 percent and none of them track. After fighting zero on a 6x42 after a long flight to Africa and using up 20 rounds to re-zero, I gave up on Leupolds and started voting elsewhere in the optics world with my money.
I bet I've had 50 Leupolds and love their features other than their quality is absolute junk---almost all of them. I hope they get it straightened out, but it would surprise me if they ever do.
My rural connection is wreaking havoc...I heard up to the point that they wanted to address tracking; there is no problem; they have lots of cool stuff downstairs to measure the intricacies without variables induced like a firearm. What’s the readers digest version after that?
Tracking is not a problem they have a really cool million dollar machine to check it............. To be fair what did you expect? ya we have a problem and we are working on it? never gonna happen
I found it interesting that the first slide used to address their 3rd point (I believe) was labeled "Myth #5 Leupold scopes don't track well at 100 yards", about 9:50 min. Clearly, 24HR live stream wasn't the first time they have addressed tracking. Prior audience required a slick power point presentation. Sounds like Form is correct, the questions been asked before, just not answered or the problem addressed. Wonder what were myths #1 to #4?
I think we'd all appreciate hearing your thoughts on how that went.
Thanks,
Higgins
Again.
I was disappointed in it to be perfectly honest. I think that it seemed canned and no "live". By this i mean it was not the interacting with the members and directly responding with the comments being made. I was unaware of how this type of thing worked but obviously withing a few minutes I got the jest and thought they would react/respond in time to the posted questions.
I will be speaking with Leupold about my thoughts on how this was done and how i had expected it would be and how I do not feel it filled expectations
I think we'd all appreciate hearing your thoughts on how that went.
Thanks,
Higgins
Again.
I was disappointed in it to be perfectly honest. I think that it seemed canned and no "live". By this i mean it was not the interacting with the members and directly responding with the comments being made. I was unaware of how this type of thing worked but obviously withing a few minutes I got the jest and thought they would react/respond in time to the posted questions.
I will be speaking with Leupold about my thoughts on how this was done and how i had expected it would be and how I do not feel it filled expectations
This is why most all my optic purchases are from CL.
Originally Posted by gr8fuldoug
Originally Posted by Higbean
Originally Posted by Higbean
Rick and Doug,
I think we'd all appreciate hearing your thoughts on how that went.
Thanks,
Higgins
Again.
I was disappointed in it to be perfectly honest. I think that it seemed canned and no "live". By this i mean it was not the interacting with the members and directly responding with the comments being made. I was unaware of how this type of thing worked but obviously withing a few minutes I got the jest and thought they would react/respond in time to the posted questions.
I will be speaking with Leupold about my thoughts on how this was done and how i had expected it would be and how I do not feel it filled expectations
Leupold has been well informed over the years from numerous well established and respected individuals, companies, specialized shooting schools, and organizations about their products short comings. Empirical evidence and demonstrations provided.... all to deaf ears. Leupold obviously doesn't see a problem, and will not be making any changes.
Best to spend the time, energy, and resources elsewhere.
Thanks for putting this together, Doug. I'll certainly be ordering more stuff from you in the future, though that stuff will not have a Leupold badge on the box.
Anybody else think it was funny that we got the guy who does the tours?
Hilarious!!!
You are chitting?
Nope.
I believe he is not currently the tour guide but used to be. In his 13 years , he has done marketing and service if you watch it . The other guy has three years with Leupold and runs the service dept.
They said 2 out of every 1000 (0.2%) scopes they MANUFACTURE returns for warranty work. Then only two percent that they look at in the service department are actually defective. That sounds extremely low.
Leupold has been well informed over the years from numerous well established and respected individuals, companies, specialized shooting schools, and organizations about their products short comings. Empirical evidence and demonstrations provided.... all to deaf ears. Leupold obviously doesn't see a problem, and will not be making any changes.
Best to spend the time, energy, and resources elsewhere.
Agree. Beating a dead horse. I've long been gone. Went from 100% Leupold scopes 20 years ago to zero today. Following for entertainment purposes.
And for each shiny widget sold, you sell 250 of the matte-finish version.
I understand the widget theory, but for nearly 80 years Leupold sold a gloss version of their product(s) as a standard finish. For folks who have been loyal Leupold fanboys for a bunch of those years it's hard to swallow. I'm not asking for every scope on the line to have a no cost gloss option, but c'mon at least throw us a bone on a 2-7 or 3-9 in something.
I’ve got a gloss black VX-II 3-9x40 with. CDS turret that I’ll pull off my 35 Whelen and sell you for $200 today. Happy Trails
Many of my hunting buddies have Leupold scopes and a couple of the ill informed noobs have older VX-1’s with friction stops and actually think they have great scopes. One of them wanted to buy my old Mark V and was flabbergasted when I told him $1,500! When he stopped sputtering, I told him the rifle is free and the price is just for the Kahles scope. LOL! The cracker then suggested I keep the scope and give him the rifle..... dumbfuque. He’s still toting a cheap Win Tupperware XPR rifle.
Anybody else think it was funny that we got the guy who does the tours?
Hilarious!!!
You are chitting?
Nope.
I believe he is not currently the tour guide but used to be. In his 13 years , he has done marketing and service if you watch it . The other guy has three years with Leupold and runs the service dept.
They said 2 out of every 1000 (0.2%) scopes they MANUFACTURE returns for warranty work. Then only two percent that they look at in the service department are actually defective. That sounds extremely low.
I wanted a little time to digest it. Watched most of it again.
Frankly, I just don't see what was accomplished.
The big question is/was/has been regarding tracking, adjustment, and zero retention. That's what everybody tuned in to see. And I just don't think guys who are having those issues got much satisfaction from Leupold's remarks. Leupold clearly stated that any such issues are not due to their scopes inherently, which is not a wholly surprising position. I got the distinct impression that, except maybe for some part of their 0.2% return rate, they attribute such issues to other external factors, including operator error.
So, again, was that what this whole event was about?
Best thing to come out of the exchange is Leupold's offer to call them if you are having trouble. I would take them up on that.
That was just plain sad. They could have easily said that they shared our concerns and would be actively looking into any problems that might arise.
At least they were honest though--they don't see a problem with their product and do not plan on looking into any suggested changes (at least until they lose enough market share to make it required).
And to think, the tracking "fix" would only require them to spec a stronger, better quality spring at maybe an extra $10 per scope. No redesign even needed. I think that the consumer would gladly pay that extra price for a scope that didn't wander and moved when adjusted.
I was glad they myth busted all the exaggerated claims about it taking six trips to Leupold to get a scope fixed. “Generally, they’re fixed by the third time a scope is returned... It never takes six times.”
Thanks for trying to make this work Doug. You did all you could
I never expected Leupold to admit to any problems, but their little 30 minute spiel was downright sad.
Form, as quoted earlier, was spot on....
Did anyone get the impression the guy on the right, with the bear shirt, would have sooner been cleaning toilets with the janitorial staff than in on the Q&A.
I was glad they myth busted the all the exaggerated claims about it taking six trips to Leupold to get a scope fixed. “Generally, they’re fixed by the third time a scope is returned... It never takes six times.”
I just watched it again, as I was multitasking during the original airing. This time I took a few notes which are posted below. The technical discussion was nonsense.
Early on they show a slide labeled ‘Myth 5’ which appears to illustrate that a 0.4% deviation in adjustments at 100yrds. ensures 0% deviation in adjustments1000 yards????? I have no idea what this was about.
Regarding scopes that have been back 6, 7 times, Dane, who’s been with Leupold for three years stated, “l’ve never seen a scope come back six times and have a problem. Generally by the third time it’s in here, uh, we’re firing it, uh, we’re doing jumping jacks drills, uh, we’re doing box drills...”
A few quotes from Nick... “I don’t know exactly what ‘beefed up’ means” “I’m not an engineer, I’m just a marketing guy” “Are your take down screws in the stock nice and secure?” “We’re not accusing anyone of being wrong or anything like that.” “We’re not gonna produce a product that doesn’t work—doesn’t track.” “We’re gonna geek out on all the engineering stuff, all the stuff that’s over my head.” “If it goes on a rifle, it comes out of this factory (the one in the US)”
I think we'd all appreciate hearing your thoughts on how that went.
Thanks,
Higgins
Again.
I was disappointed in it to be perfectly honest. I think that it seemed canned and no "live". By this i mean it was not the interacting with the members and directly responding with the comments being made. I was unaware of how this type of thing worked but obviously withing a few minutes I got the jest and thought they would react/respond in time to the posted questions.
I will be speaking with Leupold about my thoughts on how this was done and how i had expected it would be and how I do not feel it filled expectations
Anybody else think it was funny that we got the guy who does the tours?
Hilarious!!!
You are chitting?
Nope.
I believe he is not currently the tour guide but used to be. In his 13 years , he has done marketing and service if you watch it . The other guy has three years with Leupold and runs the service dept.
They said 2 out of every 1000 (0.2%) scopes they MANUFACTURE returns for warranty work. Then only two percent that they look at in the service department are actually defective. That sounds extremely low.
He clearly states that he does the tours in the first minute and it's kinda weird you'd dispute this.
I spent a whole slug o' money sending Leupolds back that never tracked or held zero only for them to give a clean bill of health.
Once I switched to SWFA all the accuracy problems went away.
I would have liked to have heard what they had to say about that, but they were too busy telling me about their expensive machinery that makes tour guides and service dept guys think they actually track and hold zero.
Early on they show a slide labeled ‘Myth 5’ which appears to illustrate that a 0.4% deviation in adjustments at 100yrds. ensures 0% deviation in adjustments1000 yards????? I have no idea what this was about.
Exactly. Angular subtension is angular subtension, whether at 100 yards or 1000. That visual aid is nothing but a marketing tool, with no basis in science.
I also loved the “repeatable and accurate” comment about their adjustments that may have slightly incorrect increments. Maybe they missed the countless posts describing the “Leupold shuffle”? So much for repeatable and accurate.
That video was simply a marketing tool that said “There is nothing wrong with our scopes, there is something wrong with you guys.” Kind of a crappy marketing approach, if you ask me.
Hah, that cracked me right up, too. As if him pushing with his fingers replicates the impulse the rifle places on the scope (let alone any bumps, falls, etc), and that if he can’t feel it move with his fingers, it must not be moving enough to shift zero at 100 yards. Priceless.
I just watched it again, as I was multitasking during the original airing. This time I took a few notes which are posted below. The technical discussion was nonsense.
Early on they show a slide labeled ‘Myth 5’ which appears to illustrate that a 0.4% deviation in adjustments at 100yrds. ensures 0% deviqation in adjustments1000 yards????? I have no idea what this was about.
Regarding scopes that have been back 6, 7 times, Dane, who’s been with Leupold for three years stated, “l’ve never seen a scope come back six times and have a problem. Generally by the third time it’s in here, uh, we’re firing it, uh, we’re doing jumping jacks drills, uh, we’re doing box drills...”
A few quotes from Nick... “I don’t know exactly what ‘beefed up’ means” “I’m not an engineer, I’m just a marketing guy” “Are your take down screws in the stock nice and secure?” “We’re not accusing anyone of being wrong or anything like that.” “We’re not gonna produce a product that doesn’t work—doesn’t track.” “We’re gonna geek out on all the engineering stuff, all the stuff that’s over my head.” “If it goes on a rifle, it comes out of this factory (the one in the US)”
“Myth 5”.....Means you can’t properly sight a Leupold Scope at 100 yards...This is gonna be a shocker to the Set & Forget it guys.
I was impressed with the “mushy dials” explanation that means the erector is still doing its job...That I call 100% BS on.
I’ve had several VX6 and VX3i that when dialing up adjustments using CDS it felt like the knob was very loose, mushy and wobbled inside the turet. This would cause minor issues having to play the adjustment guessing game, 1/4 click would provide 1/2” or more in adjusment the other direction...Back and forth. Somtimes a good knock on top of the turret made me feel like in was supposed to help knock the erector into place...😎
Wow....just watched the first 12 minutes and that was enough. They have a tracking problem. There's no question about this or doubt. I've sighted enough Leupolds in that 'REQUIRE" at least 3 shots to tell where the adjustment is going to finally settle in.....I'd blame it on me, the rifle, the mounts, or anything else except by moving to SWFA, Nightforce, or S&B the same setups adjust on the first shot....exactly.
Form really nailed it when he said they'd not admit to any problems and weren't interested in fixing things.
I WANTED to support Leupold...but after watching the following is my decision:
1. I'll never buy another Leupold unless it's proven they fixed tracking, return to zero, and zero retention. The first 12 minutes of that made it clear that they and I speak a different language. What I've seen REPEATEDLY they call a MYTH. From that I know that I can't put faith in anything they say. I'll consider it proven when Form signs off on one...
2. I'll keep on supporting CameraLandNY. Hat's off to Doug for setting this up.
Reminds me of back in 1995 when Ford Motor Company told me that there was no problem with their brakes when dang near every single vehicle Came back in with pulsating braking cause by warped rotors. They told me us that the problem was the way people braked and we needed to retrain The customer to lightly pump the brakes and not to apply a steady stream of pressure. I told them to get fckd and I wasn't running a driving school. If they wanted to tell people who been driving with no problems for 30-50 years that they dont know how to drive then they could do that themselves. We knew what the problem was and they knew what the problem was but the fix was not going to happen so they laid it off on the drivers. I basically told them they should design a system based on the way people drive. I replace rotors and pads on every single vehicle that was under warranty and sent Ford the bills. They paid everyone of them.
Anyone that expected they were going to admit there are problems with their products is delusional. That's simply not how one survives in the corporate world.
Way back when in the days of Quality programs, the mantra was, "Quality means meeting customer expectations, not goodness". IOW, as long as the customer thinks he's getting his money's worth, it's a quality product. As long as enough people keep buying Leupold stuff based on reputation and tradition, there's no incentive for them to make any changes. As has been said repeatedly here, they know all about the stuff they sell, and are sticking to the program. Maybe there's a bunch of secret scurrying around in their engineering department working on the problems with their stuff, but I kinda doubt it, and ain't taking any expensive chances when there's plenty of other good products to choose from.
Thanks to Doug and all those who endured the presentation and produced the Cliff Notes version for the rest of us.
I was glad they myth busted all the exaggerated claims about it taking six trips to Leupold to get a scope fixed. “Generally, they’re fixed by the third time a scope is returned... It never takes six times.”
That was very cringe-worthy. Good to know 3rd time is the charm.
Anyone that expected they were going to admit there are problems with their products is delusional. That's simply not how one survives in the corporate world.
Way back when in the days of Quality programs, the mantra was, "Quality means meeting customer expectations, not goodness". IOW, as long as the customer thinks he's getting his money's worth, it's a quality product. As long as enough people keep buying Leupold stuff based on reputation and tradition, there's no incentive for them to make any changes. As has been said repeatedly here, they know all about the stuff they sell, and are sticking to the program. Maybe there's a bunch of secret scurrying around in their engineering department working on the problems with their stuff, but I kinda doubt it, and ain't taking any expensive chances when there's plenty of other good products to choose from.
Thanks to Doug and all those who endured the presentation and produced the Cliff Notes version for the rest of us.
I think you nailed it.
Something I've been considering is the fact that Leupolds are very light in weight, and I suppose that could be because they're using very thin tubes. If that is so, then it could be that they're more sensitive to any ring misalignment causing erectors to bind. I read somewhere recently that someone was tightening rings on a rifle and noticed that as the ring screws were torqued, the rifle's action would flex. That would almost certainly not happen with a Leupold if I'm right about tube thickness.
I was glad they myth busted all the exaggerated claims about it taking six trips to Leupold to get a scope fixed. “Generally, they’re fixed by the third time a scope is returned... It never takes six times.”
That was very cringe-worthy. Good to know 3rd time is the charm.
It usually takes Swaro one time to fix a issue at least on their Z3's
This reminds me of Lee Iacocca's book about when he worked for Henry Ford. Henry drove a Lincoln to work every day and every day while he was in the office the mechanics took his Lincoln to the shop and went over it with a fine toothed comb. He couldn't understand why people were complaining about Ford quality, His Lincoln was just fine. Can you say "Clueless"?
Anyone that expected they were going to admit there are problems with their products is delusional. That's simply not how one survives in the corporate world.
Way back when in the days of Quality programs, the mantra was, "Quality means meeting customer expectations, not goodness". IOW, as long as the customer thinks he's getting his money's worth, it's a quality product. As long as enough people keep buying Leupold stuff based on reputation and tradition, there's no incentive for them to make any changes. As has been said repeatedly here, they know all about the stuff they sell, and are sticking to the program. Maybe there's a bunch of secret scurrying around in their engineering department working on the problems with their stuff, but I kinda doubt it, and ain't taking any expensive chances when there's plenty of other good products to choose from.
Thanks to Doug and all those who endured the presentation and produced the Cliff Notes version for the rest of us.
I think you nailed it.
Something I've been considering is the fact that Leupolds are very light in weight, and I suppose that could be because they're using very thin tubes. If that is so, then it could be that they're more sensitive to any ring misalignment causing erectors to bind. I read somewhere recently that someone was tightening rings on a rifle and noticed that as the ring screws were torqued, the rifle's action would flex. That would almost certainly not happen with a Leupold if I'm right about tube thickness.
I thought someone was kidding about the hamburger on their home page. WOW just WOW
I don't know if that's a bad thing. After my last five Leupold scope experiences, I would rather have that burger any day. It is a nice looking burger.
I just watched it again, as I was multitasking during the original airing. This time I took a few notes which are posted below. The technical discussion was nonsense.
Early on they show a slide labeled ‘Myth 5’ which appears to illustrate that a 0.4% deviation in adjustments at 100yrds. ensures 0% deviation in adjustments1000 yards????? I have no idea what this was about.
Regarding scopes that have been back 6, 7 times, Dane, who’s been with Leupold for three years stated, “l’ve never seen a scope come back six times and have a problem. Generally by the third time it’s in here, uh, we’re firing it, uh, we’re doing jumping jacks drills, uh, we’re doing box drills...”
A few quotes from Nick... “I don’t know exactly what ‘beefed up’ means” “I’m not an engineer, I’m just a marketing guy” “Are your take down screws in the stock nice and secure?” “We’re not accusing anyone of being wrong or anything like that.” “We’re not gonna produce a product that doesn’t work—doesn’t track.” “We’re gonna geek out on all the engineering stuff, all the stuff that’s over my head.” “If it goes on a rifle, it comes out of this factory (the one in the US)”
Thanks for posting this.
I've seen enough to fully say screw them. However, the burger does look great!
Anyone that expected they were going to admit there are problems with their products is delusional. That's simply not how one survives in the corporate world.
Way back when in the days of Quality programs, the mantra was, "Quality means meeting customer expectations, not goodness". IOW, as long as the customer thinks he's getting his money's worth, it's a quality product. As long as enough people keep buying Leupold stuff based on reputation and tradition, there's no incentive for them to make any changes. As has been said repeatedly here, they know all about the stuff they sell, and are sticking to the program. Maybe there's a bunch of secret scurrying around in their engineering department working on the problems with their stuff, but I kinda doubt it, and ain't taking any expensive chances when there's plenty of other good products to choose from.
Thanks to Doug and all those who endured the presentation and produced the Cliff Notes version for the rest of us.
I think you nailed it.
Something I've been considering is the fact that Leupolds are very light in weight, and I suppose that could be because they're using very thin tubes. If that is so, then it could be that they're more sensitive to any ring misalignment causing erectors to bind. I read somewhere recently that someone was tightening rings on a rifle and noticed that as the ring screws were torqued, the rifle's action would flex. That would almost certainly not happen with a Leupold if I'm right about tube thickness.
It must have been a ruger american rifle
It was a CA Ridgeline 300 RUM. Had a slightly bent 6x SS and once everything was torqued down I had some binding on action opening. Replaced the scope with a new 6x SS and all is well.
It is guaranteed to be good. Best burger guarantee in the business. Comes with a a little bottle of 'X-Tended Flavor' sauce. No one has sent one back to the kitchen more than three times before they got it right! No one!!
I watched until they said you needed to be exactly 100yards from the adjustments to the target measured with a steel tape. So me being off a few inches from a 100 yards is causing 6-8 inches of shift left and right? Diagonally or whatever. Hmm the things you learn.
Thanks for the refresher, Scotty. Kind of a different scenario in your anecdote, but I think it illustrates the point.
Maybe if Leupold would do a bit of testing with misaligned rings, they could issue more satisfactory responses and actually help customers. I'm not impressed with their responses to date. I don't feel like they're facing reality. All the lab testing is fine and dandy, but they're not addressing the issues effectively.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
Thanks for setting this up, but I missed it. I own Leupolds and my issues have been minor compared to others here. I have read through the forum here and it looks like Leupold has taken the "don't give a [bleep] stand". The customers wrong we are right, what a better way for a company to go out of business. Until Leupold addresses these issues, the problems will only continue, and I will say I have purchased my last Leupold until they acknowledge it and resolve the issue. Heck, I was about to buy a new scope in the next three weeks as well. Oh well, there are other companies that will be glad to take my money.
I think the Leupold representatives in this presentation genuinely believe their products are beyond reproach and that their customer’s issues are merely predicated on baseless myths. They are in denial, and they are not gong to address problems that they believe don’t even exist. Too bad, but that is where they are... CP.
I think the Leupold representatives in this presentation genuinely believe their products are beyond reproach and that their customer’s issues are merely predicated on baseless myths. They are in denial, and they are not gong to address problems that they believe don’t even exist. Too bad, but that is where they are... CP.
One of those myths bit a 6x42 of mine on the ass not long ago.
I think the Leupold representatives in this presentation genuinely believe their products are beyond reproach and that their customer’s issues are merely predicated on baseless myths. They are in denial, and they are not gong to address problems that they believe don’t even exist. Too bad, but that is where they are... CP.
It is hard to disagree after the exclusive 24 hcf viewing show.
I think the most disappointing part is they seemed to talk down to us...... I believe the campfire has many extremely accomplished shooters and we aren't the general shooting public... but they lumped us in with that group.
I think the most disappointing part is they seemed to talk down to us...... I believe the campfire has many extremely accomplished shooters and we aren't the general shooting public... but they lumped us in with that group.
I ordered the burger, but, had to send it back, like six times, because they couldn't get it right. Then they told me I didn't know what a good burger is or how to eat it. Wow, I doubt I will try another!
Thanks for setting this up, but I missed it. I own Leupolds and my issues have been minor compared to others here. I have read through the forum here and it looks like Leupold has taken the "don't give a [bleep] stand". The customers wrong we are right, what a better way for a company to go out of business. Until Leupold addresses these issues, the problems will only continue, and I will say I have purchased my last Leupold until they acknowledge it and resolve the issue. Heck, I was about to buy a new scope in the next three weeks as well. Oh well, there are other companies that will be glad to take my money.
There's zero chance they're going out of business. They don't need to address anything, their market share is big and the users of their products generally won't notice anything less than catastrophic failure. As predicted, anyone reading this forum can move on and it'll never matter to Leupold. Fugg'em.
Next screen will say Live Event is off air but there is a link on the right side of the screen to the archive.
Thanks for that link. I got on, heard their discussion after the fact.
They sure did sandbag that rumor about the family/board. That info may or may not be true.
I reported what I found, and as Bill O'Reily loves to say, "I report, you decide"...
Their double talk about technical stuff sorta dilutes their denials about the board, IMO.
One also said they "share" targets with customers. I'd had several scopes returned for tracking and fail to hold zero issues, never got a target, didn't expect one. Doubt they actually mounted and shot targets with my repaired scopes.
They reportedly tested other brands on their machines, "Leupolds do the best". Guess I'll have to take their word for that. Wonder what brands they're talking about.
So, bottom line, believe what they say, not what you've experienced.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
Well said.
Why feel sorry for Doug? After years of successful business not carrying Leupold, he now does. If there's discontent with Leupold on this forum so be it. Thanks for the effort, sure, but sorry feelers is the last thing needed IMO.
And paranoia "now"? Have not the Leupold failure discussions ever caught ya'lls attention before?
Zero insult intended. Folks use them. I have a few.
... and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent...
Not sure why you say that. I doubt seriously this was some rogue event based on their own initiative, and that Leupold management was aware of how it would be addressed.
Someone mentioned tube weight/strength earlier on. I wonder how the change in mounts may be contributing to the influx in issues (in addition to more dialing)? Not too long ago most used windage adjustable mounts, sometimes referred to Redfield style. Most, have gone away from this style mount because the windage screws can loosen affecting POI. I actually lost one after shooting one day. These type of mounting systems are very forgiving when it comes to scope mounting and holes that are not perfectly parallel to the bore. Most of the scopes that do track well are considerably heavier than what Leupold offers. Could the robustness of the tube, therefore resistance to less than perfect mounting, be a contributing factor to good mechanical behavior?
Of'course this doesn't explain why my weaver classics which weigh the same as Leupolds track very well in comparison.
Someone mentioned tube weight/strength earlier on. I wonder how the change in mounts may be contributing to the influx in issues (in addition to more dialing)? Not too long ago most used windage adjustable mounts, sometimes referred to Redfield style. Most, have gone away from this style mount can the windage screws can loosen affecting POI. I actually lost one after shooting one day. These type of mounting systems are very forgiving when it comes to scope mounting and holes that are not perfectly parallel to the bore. Most of the scopes that do track well are considerably heavier than what Leupold offers. Could the robustness of the tube, therefore resistance to less than perfect mounting, be a contributing factor to good mechanical behavior?
Of'course this doesn't explain why my weaver classics which weigh the same as Leupolds track very well in comparison.
Good point. They do their testing in a lab. Real world conditions enter more variables. The guy on the right said on the third trip to CS they are just THEN mounting on a rifle.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
I've been a rather unabashed Leupold supporter since exiting the womb and I found the live piece so very wonderfully patronizing.
I'm not sure what their expectation was but I gave them hesitant props pro eo for venturing into this optics lions den. What they're used to experiencing in these types of social-love events is expelling rainbows and unicorns with the hardest-pressing question received from participants is "dude, where can I get the sweet t-shirt you're wearing?"
A few months back I signed up for some chance-to-win thingy with a trio of brands - Leupold being one of them. In doing so, I had to fill out a questionnaire with a list of attributes I considered important in my equipment. I've since been sent a templated email (catering to my order of importance); "You've asked for reliability"; featuring the XXX rangefinder." And I'm sure I'll get one soon enough with the "You've asked for *fill-in-the-blank*; featuring the XXXXX". I'm sure there's some marketing eyes from Leupold on this thread so this is a head's up for them: Folks, your strategy is showing; you can bullszchit the fans but not the players.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
Let us remember Leupold scopes starts at $199 while NF at $975. (Retail) . Is it realistic to expect the same quality?
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
I have been a Leupold user and supporter for some 50 years. I do not consider myself a Leupold fanboy by any means. Gear I use has to impress me and work the way I want it to, or I don't use it regardless of brand. So a lot of this is kind of disturbing. I do not discount some of the problems continually reported, just that I never have had any of them. That said I'm not a dial twister and long range shooter. I'm more likely to be more typical of the average shooter, and more atypical of the long range segment. I do have a very accurate 7 mm RM. Might have to buy a Leupold dial twister and see that side of the issue for myself.
I'm glad the ownership question did come up early on. That was probably an expected result, and is likely truthful. If your company does tens of millions of $$ in business every year, and you hold stock in said company, it makes no sense to commit suicide. I wonder if Leupold is looking for a leaker?
I was quite disappointed in the video. It was rather amateurish. I said in an earlier post the results were likely dependent on who Leupold sent to the party. Those are probably two pretty reliable and knowledgeable fellows. But good speakers they are not. They did not look real comfortable doing the dance. Way too many "you know's" and "and and-uh's. Not a good presentation at all. They did not appear to rank high enough in the corporate structure to carry the required weight. Specific questions were not responded to adequately. To much "we make good stuff" in the presentation. Not any dealing face up with issues.
Some video of actual production of the various lines from start to finish would be a nice addition to the website. Some good diagrams of interior construction in the specification and description of the various scopes too.
I will say the stuff they had did look pretty stout ( I would expect nothing else). That said maybe there is more of a need to tighten quality control on the various bits and pieces and add some scrutiny to assembly. Just because it is made of beryllium copper alloy does not mean it was made right and all fits together properly. Not rocket science to deduce that if it does not fit right it won't dial right.
I've been a rather unabashed Leupold supporter since exiting the womb and I found the live piece so very wonderfully patronizing.
I'm not sure what their expectation was but I gave them hesitant props pro eo for venturing into this optics lions den. What they're used to experiencing in these types of social-love events is expelling rainbows and unicorns with the hardest-pressing question received from participants is "dude, where can I get the sweet t-shirt you're wearing?"
A few months back I signed up for some chance-to-win thingy with a trio of brands - Leupold being one of them. In doing so, I had to fill out a questionnaire with a list of attributes I considered important in my equipment. I've since been sent a templated email (catering to my order of importance); "You've asked for reliability"; featuring the XXX rangefinder." And I'm sure I'll get one soon enough with the "You've asked for *fill-in-the-blank*; featuring the XXXXX". I'm sure there's some marketing eyes from Leupold on this thread so this is a head's up for them: Folks, your strategy is showing; you can bullszchit the fans but not the players.
That’s really well said...”You can bullschit the fans but not the players”
I do not discount some of the problems continually reported, just that I never have had any of them. That said I'm not a dial twister and long range shooter. I'm more likely to be more typical of the average shooter, and more atypical of the long range segment. I do have a very accurate 7 mm RM. Might have to buy a Leupold dial twister and see that side of the issue for myself.
I see a lot of comments similar to this one.
Guys- whether you dial or not, zero shift is real. I've seen it with several Leupolds, anywhere from 0.5-3 MOA shift between range sessions, between shots, between groups, etc. If you're not shooting small enough groups to notice a 0.5 or 1 MOA shift in POI, then you'll live in blissful ignorance, but not everyone is willing to overlook such a thing.
I've been a rather unabashed Leupold supporter since exiting the womb and I found the live piece so very wonderfully patronizing.
I'm not sure what their expectation was but I gave them hesitant props pro eo for venturing into this optics lions den. What they're used to experiencing in these types of social-love events is expelling rainbows and unicorns with the hardest-pressing question received from participants is "dude, where can I get the sweet t-shirt you're wearing?"
A few months back I signed up for some chance-to-win thingy with a trio of brands - Leupold being one of them. In doing so, I had to fill out a questionnaire with a list of attributes I considered important in my equipment. I've since been sent a templated email (catering to my order of importance); "You've asked for reliability"; featuring the XXX rangefinder." And I'm sure I'll get one soon enough with the "You've asked for *fill-in-the-blank*; featuring the XXXXX". I'm sure there's some marketing eyes from Leupold on this thread so this is a head's up for them: Folks, your strategy is showing; you can bullszchit the fans but not the players.
That’s really well said...”You can bullschit the fans but not the players”
Poorly done all-in-all. Lots of covering up the pile but leaving the stink. I owned Leupolds for years and got rid of the last one about 15-18 years back. It had been mounted on a 'hard-kicking' 25-06 and then moved to an equally 'hard-kicking' 243. (<= that's sarcasm there) On both scopes I could get maybe 8-10 shots then the zero would float off. Sent it in and got it back saying they tightened something up. Still had the same problem. It was an older Vari-x III. Last one I ever owned.
I looked at the VX-5HD scopes a while back and opted to go elsewhere. I currently have scopes from Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski, Minox, Sig, Burris and Bushnell.
I listened to this again just now and made it about 27 minutes into it before I got tired of being talked down to. I'm rather disappointed in the whole thing. I was really hoping they would address the issues instead of just dodging. "We aren't going anywhere. We are going to continue making quality products." - made my BS meter go to about 11.
I do want to thank Doug and Rick for putting this together. I know they had NO control over how we were going to be treated. You gave them and us a chance, they screwed it up and totally missed the boat. Heck, they missed the dang river.
I wish Leupold luck in some day figuring this out. When or if, they do, they might go back to this video and this thread and see that this very well may have been the turning point that they missed.
For now, I'll stick with Doug and the scopes I have that work for me.
Looks like the video was taken down. I wish I could have watched it.
Doug, thanks for doing this. Very nice of you to attempt this.
I recently bought the first scoped rifle I've had in a few years as I had been shooting iron sights. I was pretty set on a VX-5HD, but I found this place and another forum. I also read alot of Form's posts. I ended up with a different rifle and scope that I originally intended. I just wanted something that worked. I really feel like I got that. It's a shame, because I really try to buy American made when I can. I want something that works first.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
All Leupold had to do was read any number of threads archived on the 24HCF. There’s no excuse for them not knowing what they were getting into.
Originally Posted by CP
I think the Leupold representatives in this presentation genuinely believe their products are beyond reproach and that their customer’s issues are merely predicated on baseless myths. They are in denial, and they are not gong to address problems that they believe don’t even exist. Too bad, but that is where they are... CP.
Well put and from a perspective Leupold should understand—epistemological...
Originally Posted by Higbean
Originally Posted by irfubar
I think the most disappointing part is they seemed to talk down to us...... I believe the campfire has many extremely accomplished shooters and we aren't the general shooting public... but they lumped us in with that group.
Typical tour guide narcissism....
LOL
Originally Posted by MtnBoomer
I ordered the burger, but, had to send it back, like six times, because they couldn't get it right. Then they told me I didn't know what a good burger is or how to eat it. Wow, I doubt I will try another!
They were real quick to start their presentation, defending the story about family board members being a bunch of snowflakes regarding military contracts, their controversy about making scopes used to kill people.
I don't think that info appeared out of nowhere, developed in a vacuum. Ya just can't make that kinda stuff up. Where there's smoke...
I wasn't impressed with their demeanor, appearance, attitude or presentation. They were definitely talking down to us, IMO
Turned out just about like we suspected.
I do appreciate Doug and those who at least tried.
Just curious, but from a business standpoint; why would a company turn down Military Contracts? Isn't that easy money? Also, they appear to have current military contracts, along with the Mark 4 and Mark 6/8 and the Ultras in the 80's and 90's were all Contract Scopes...doesn't that invalidate the theory of Leopold turning down military contracts? Just curious but common sense seems to be missing from some of these accusations.. which seems to also be very common over here around this campfire.
Just playing devils advocate, but some of the theory's here are right up there with Area 51, Aliens, and Chemtrails. What facts are behind any of these theories?
Also, I have no dogs in this fight, I just prefer to THINK about whether things make sense before I jump to conclusions. I do have a few Leupys that I love, but I also have some cheap SWFA's, Tascos, and Steiners.
acts? Just curious but common sense seems to be missing from some of these accusations.. which seems to also be very common over here around this campfire.
Just playing devils advocate, but some of the theory's here are right up there with Area 51, Aliens, and Chemtrails. What facts are behind any of these theories?
market forces are inexorable. price, quality, supply & demand always come into some sort of balance sooner or later.
let's don't rule out too much of the far-out stuff.
Just curious, but from a business standpoint; why would a company turn down Military Contracts? Isn't that easy money? Also, they appear to have current military contracts, along with the Mark 4 and Mark 6/8 and the Ultras in the 80's and 90's were all Contract Scopes...doesn't that invalidate the theory of Leopold turning down military contracts? Just curious but common sense seems to be missing from some of these accusations.. which seems to also be very common over here around this campfire.
Just playing devils advocate, but some of the theory's here are right up there with Area 51, Aliens, and Chemtrails. What facts are behind any of these theories?
Also, I have no dogs in this fight, I just prefer to THINK about whether things make sense before I jump to conclusions. I do have a few Leupys that I love, but I also have some cheap SWFA's, Tascos, and Steiners.
Originally Posted by Huntress1956
Just curious, but from a business standpoint; why would a company turn down Military Contracts? Isn't that easy money? Also, they appear to have current military contracts, along with the Mark 4 and Mark 6/8 and the Ultras in the 80's and 90's were all Contract Scopes...doesn't that invalidate the theory of Leopold turning down military contracts? Just curious but common sense seems to be missing from some of these accusations.. which seems to also be very common over here around this campfire.
Just playing devils advocate, but some of the theory's here are right up there with Area 51, Aliens, and Chemtrails. What facts are behind any of these theories?
Also, I have no dogs in this fight, I just prefer to THINK about whether things make sense before I jump to conclusions. I do have a few Leupys that I love, but I also have some cheap SWFA's, Tascos, and Steiners.
Good post. I havent tried an el cheapo,bomb proof SWFA yet, but am considering it .it will go on a target rifle.
It sounds like most of you are in agreement that there isn't much common sense here. haha, that validates my initial impressions. It makes it hard to find the loudest guys credible.
It sounds like most of you are in agreement that there isn't much common sense here. haha, that validates my initial impressions. It makes it hard to find the loudest guys credible.
Joined yesterday ... 2/7 posts leupold positive ... damage control?
Just stating my observations and experiences. After all, that's what everyone is doing, right? Damage control? Ha! Also, yes, I'm new to the whole forum thing, my Grandson told me to take a look.
I’m a Leupold user, but admit many here-but not all-who know their scopes, have little reason to not be telling the truth. Also Leupold did a poor job with their presentation.
However, condemning them on rumors, re military, that can easily be proven wrong by use, at best lacks common sense. At worst?
Just curious, but from a business standpoint; why would a company turn down Military Contracts? Isn't that easy money? Also, they appear to have current military contracts, along with the Mark 4 and Mark 6/8 and the Ultras in the 80's and 90's were all Contract Scopes...doesn't that invalidate the theory of Leopold turning down military contracts? Just curious but common sense seems to be missing from some of these accusations.. which seems to also be very common over here around this campfire.
Just playing devils advocate, but some of the theory's here are right up there with Area 51, Aliens, and Chemtrails. What facts are behind any of these theories?
Also, I have no dogs in this fight, I just prefer to THINK about whether things make sense before I jump to conclusions. I do have a few Leupys that I love, but I also have some cheap SWFA's, Tascos, and Steiners.
Nick, I always assumed the anti-war rumors were Leupold’s sour-grapes response to having lost their dominant share of the domestic LE and Military market.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
Let us remember Leupold scopes starts at $199 while NF at $975. (Retail) . Is it realistic to expect the same quality?
And SWFA FF is $259 Black Friday. There is one reason Leupold doesn't, they're convinced their chit don't stink.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
Let us remember Leupold scopes starts at $199 while NF at $975. (Retail) . Is it realistic to expect the same quality?
And SWFA FF is $259 Black Friday. There is one reason Leupold doesn't, they're convinced their chit don't stink.
Id like to use some SWFAs and see how i like them.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
Let us remember Leupold scopes starts at $199 while NF at $975. (Retail) . Is it realistic to expect the same quality?
And SWFA FF is $259 Black Friday. There is one reason Leupold doesn't, they're convinced their chit don't stink.
Id like to use some SWFAs and see how i like them.
I feel a bit sorry for Doug and Leupold on this one. This wasn't going to end well given the state of the strength of opinions on the subject. Doug comes across looking naive and probably damages his relationship with Leupold to boot. Leupold haters get to have a bigger field day and the poor sods who showed up from team Loopy probably damage their career's to some extent though I suspect it's also likely that 24 hour campfire members take their own reputation as "impossible to please" to a new height with management. Probably not the end game Doug was looking for.
I will continue to use Leupolds when I want a light weight option, but not without a bit of paranoia now, waiting for failures, that will likely not happen but waiting non the less.
"Leupold haters"? I highly doubt that it's a segment of guys who thought "hmmm, Leupold is a USA-based sport optics company that aligns very well with my hunting/shooting interests. Yup, I'm sure of it, I hate 'em".
What you are calling "Leupold haters" are predominantly regular guys like you and me that have had too many negative experiences with Leupold products to ignore. Most of them would really like to trust Leupold once again, but the company refuses to acknowledge and repair the major hurdles keeping these guys from doing so. I am one such individual. I would be happy to use Leupold riflescopes if I had the confidence in their function that I have in scopes like NF, SWFA, Bushy Elite Tac, etc. That doesn't seem "impossible to please" to me. I have no hate for Leupold, and I want them to come around and gain the reputation that they ought to have, and it frustrates me that they refuse to do what it takes. If NF can do it, so can Leupold. But they won't because they choose to look the other way.
Let us remember Leupold scopes starts at $199 while NF at $975. (Retail) . Is it realistic to expect the same quality?
And SWFA FF is $259 Black Friday. There is one reason Leupold doesn't, they're convinced their chit don't stink.
Id like to use some SWFAs and see how i like them.
For me their biggest weakness is the large diameter ocular. It prevents mounting them super low on hunting rifles—think bolt handle clearance. If you like your scopes mounted high, then bobs your uncle. .
For me their biggest weakness is the large diameter ocular. It prevents mounting them super low on hunting rifles—think bolt handle clearance. If you like your scopes mounted high, then bobs your uncle. .
Managed to use low rings everywhere, IIRC. It's the windage knob that irks me.
I have been a fairly good Leupold customer through the years. I don't like being called an idiot. I will never buy another Leupold product. I will try to steer others away from a company that has contempt for its customers.
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Here are my Leupold products.
The bottom 3 are Redfield Revolution scopes with Accurange reticles. Fantastic scopes that to the best of my memory adjusted pretty close to as they should. They have been set and forget scopes. The glass and weight are best in the price class.
Next up is an old friction Vari X-1. It pretty well behaved as it should, but the Ruger it's on isn't terribly accurate, so I dis have to twist a bit to get it set. Going up from there: a new VX-1, two silver VX-II and two VX-3. Again, weight and glass are price class leading. To the best of my recollection getting these set was an adventure.
My most accurate rifles don't wear Leupold. I twist them on occasion. I'd like for them to wear Leupold because I am big on made in the USA, but I have consumed enough reliable information to have doubts about how they would perform with regular twisting.
Summary: Love the glass, love the weight, love that I have set them and have never had to adjust them, love that they are made in the USA and love that they have been reliable once set. I should add that I don't shoot a whole lot. Don't love chasing bullseyes while dialing them in. It's maddening. Don't love what I have come to believe is a lack of reliability when dialing Leupolds. I do love what I have read about Leupold customer service.
My most recent scope purchases have not been Leupold. Leupold has some work to do. I hope they'll do it, but I have my doubts. I think they have done what Ruger has done in accepting customer returns as a part of their QC process. That's a damn shame too because Leupold is my favorite scope maker and Ruger is my favorite gun maker, but they are both unquestionably taking their customers for granted, and neither seems to give a damn.
Oh well, if it don't look promising, I'll tell her my name is Kingston and that the handsome Huntsman felller went on vacation and I'm just filling in on the ranch till he gets back.
Oh well, if it don't look promising, I'll tell her my name is Kingston and that the handsome Huntsman felller went on vacation and I'm just filling in on the ranch till he gets back.
Somehow I missed out on this. So from what I’ve read by glancing through this is that this went as well as the Meeting they had with Frank from SH? I believe I called that back in the original thread Doug started. At least a guy can say Doug and Rick tried. Leupold? Well FXXX them with a rusty cactus I guess. My last 8 scopes have been SWFA and Burris.
Wow...just saw this and crept through the whole thing. Pretty predictable and why I own no Leupold products any more.
Leupold and Vortex are both guilty of the same thing...build junk (import junk in the case of vortex) and replace it fast. Meanwhile give away keychains, coozies, and hats to the fanboys.
Problems? What problems? Here’s a new scope and a hat. Want a hamburger recipe?
Wow...just saw this and crept through the whole thing. Pretty predictable and why I own no Leupold products any more.
Leupold and Vortex are both guilty of the same thing...build junk (import junk in the case of vortex) and replace it fast. Meanwhile give away keychains, coozies, and hats to the fanboys.
Problems? What problems? Here’s a new scope and a hat. Want a hamburger recipe?
Wow...just saw this and crept through the whole thing. Pretty predictable and why I own no Leupold products any more.
Leupold and Vortex are both guilty of the same thing...build junk (import junk in the case of vortex) and replace it fast. Meanwhile give away keychains, coozies, and hats to the fanboys.
Problems? What problems? Here’s a new scope and a hat. Want a hamburger recipe?
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