Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23

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RABBI Singer explains to a Christian
replacement theology in his 'trusted' King James.

Does this mean we can all sleep in on Sundays now?

Best they still attend and ask ones pastor
why Mark the first Gospel does not mention
something as amazing as a virgin birth...
John and Paul also make no mention.

RABBI puts it that the virgin birth script was
added as christianity spiraled away from its
Torah compliant roots into the Greco-Roman
world,..Where pagans believed in virgin births.

He cites pre-christianity examples Romulus & Remus,
Augustus, Pythagoras, etc. who are recorded as being
born of a virgin.

Be much easier to sell a suitably altered Christianity
to pagans if they can familiarize with A Jesus also
being of a virgin would it not?

Next you're gonna tell us that Christmas was moved to Dec 25 to coincide with the Winter Solstice.

And yet they still believed He was the Son of God, why do suppose that is?

Starman don't be a John Lennon.

I read this somewhere long ago. From what I read, early on in the formation of the bible that " young girl" was changed to virgin. Supposedly to give it more weight. Also Noah's father was gone for a long period of time and questioned being the father of Noah. He went to His father (I think Methuselah) and the Grandfather told Noah's father that the real father of Noah was not from this world. I don't remember the source as I used to read a lot when I was younger. miles

now i know what a carp with a beard would look like.

There's no shortage of those who would disparage the Bible. In the end everyone will believe the same thing...but for most it will be too late.

Jews hate Jesus...the end.

Where to start?

First, a general observation. I don’t speak Hebrew. If I were to study it obsessively, I could at this point in life, probably only attain very rudimentary proficiency in it. As such, I would ALWAYS be reliant upon someone to help me understand it. Therefore, I find the Rabbi’s admonishment to “read it for myself” unconvincing and somewhat disingenuous. He is really telling me to rely upon him.

Secondly, he dismisses the King James Bible as being translated by 16th Century English Anglicans and relying upon the Septuagint in their translations. From the start I am inclined the discount the ill informed or purposely deceitful assertions of someone who claims that the Anglicans are the “most Catholic” of the Protestant churches without discussing what was going on in the 16th century with the Puritans, the emerging High church verses Low church solution and struggle within the Anglican Church at that time. But then he really tells a doozy when he lies and says that they relied upon the Greek Septuagint in their translations. They didn’t. They are speaking of the Old Testament and the Old Testament was translated from the original Hebrew by the most renowned scholars in England fluent in it. The Rabbi is speaking of Isiah and we know the names of the entire committee that translated that book from Hebrew. They were John Harding, John Reynolds, Thomas Holland, Richard Kilby, Miles Smith, Richard Brett, Daniel Fairclough, and William Thorne. All of these men were so prominent and renowned in their scholarship that 400 years later they have Wikipedia entries that contain more information than merely reciting that they worked on the King James Bible. Some were Puritan. Some were more orthodox Anglican. Some had fled to Geneva when Mary had reinstated Catholicism and burned Protestants.

Finally, he seems to assert that since God first revealed himself in the Hebrew language that that language is the language of God and the only way to understand his words are to read them in Hebrew and that indeed, it cannot even be effectively translated into English. Well, that sounds just like Muslims who hold that Arabic is the language of God and that every Muslim must recite the Koran in Arabic even if it is merely by rote. On the other hand Christians freely promote and actively encourage the translation and printing of the Bible into every language, tongue, and dialect on earth.

So what...?
Whether one believes it or not, it’s not critical to the story of the coming of the Messiah. And the son that was born to Joseph and Mary ‘was’ special, regardless. People rallied around Jesus because of the Resurrection, ‘not’ because of the virgin birth. People can become Christians without even knowing the narratives around Jesus' birth.

So, rabbit vs GOD. OOOKAY.

it has always been a challenge to fuse the messiah and the christos.

no need in stopping the efforts now.

the root & the vine.

which is most important?

And, given his beliefs and fundamental rejection of Christ as the Messiah, how and why would this matter at all to the rabbi?

LOL!!

Can we do the Civil War thing again next?

We are born in sin. It passes from generation to generation through the fathers blood. Look up about how the sperm is responsible for the blood not the egg. This is why it's important that people understand the concept of virgin birth. God's spirit overshadowed Mary & she was impregnated. This is how Jesus could live in a flesh body & not have a sin nature as we do.
The person who started this thread wants you to believe they are an atheist. It's obvious he hates God. How can you hate someone that you don't believe exists? He believes in Jesus, but he denies him. They'll be weeping & gnashing of teeth. I shake the dust from my feet. I'll not reply to you again foolish man.

A "Rabbi" says that, eh?

John 8:44

Amen

Seems like there is some basis for the change.....seems that in 200 BC, there were 70 Hebrew scholars who undertook the translation of Hebrew scriptures into Greek.

They translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos" ..... virgin. It could be that the 70 Hebrew scholars understood the context of Isaiah 7 - 9 and translated the word correctly, given the context.

So, the usage of the term "parthenos" is not a Christian construct.


BUT..... these abovementioned,,,,so-called "experts" have a focus only on this one verse..... An honest scholar, not one interested in "fake news" would read the following chapters to provide a clear picture of what is going on.

I have a couple of things to do, but I will be along in awhile to show this.

Meanwhile, know that guys like Starman are purveyors of "fake news"...... only the deceived do not see this.

btw... remember his "fake news" allegation about Pantera?

Like pretty much all miracles in the Bible, it was based on pagan lore. Pagans believed in virgin births long before Christianity came along. Now the one thing that I was wondering about was Mary Magdalene. In some early Christian texts she is seen as his wife, Its is said that some early Church leaders wanted to downplay her importance so they made her out to be a prostitute. For one, how can the Bible be the true word of God if there were men making these decisions and secondly if you believe Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Lord right now, do you think he is real happy that everyone is calling his wife a whore?

You are free to believe as you see.

I have heard it said that God dwells in enough darkness that those who desire not to see..... do not see..... BUT, he also dwells in enough light that those who want to find Him.... do so.

What you believe is important..... Who you believe is not only important, but has eternal consequences.

They've been trying to spin his murder by them for several millennium.

A good example of someone who does not want to find..... intentionally avoiding the light.

How sad.... and empty.....deceived....

EVERYTHING you think you know about Jesus comes from the writings of Jews. Sigh.

She is just a regular everyday Jew, trying to Jew people for her own benefit. Just like that rabbi.

All rabbis actually.

All Jews, actually.

That White men continue to listen to these people, conduct business with them, and let them live among us, puzzles me more and more each day.

Yeah, the Rabbi’s assertion that a virgin birth was not a sign because no one would know rings very hollow. If a Jewish girl/woman was unmarried in those days, unless she was a prostitute, she was assumed to be a virgin. If she was married, by definition, she wasn’t a virgin. So, if an unmarried girl became pregnant, she would scream to the high heavens, to avoid punishment, that she was a virgin and did not know how she had conceived. Sure, she could have been a liar, but the assertion would have been known at the time and thus, would have been available as a sign.

Gas is pushing $3 here.

Seeing as the Bible was "edited" by man, how do you know it is a true representation of God's word? If the editors of the Bible wanted to downplay the significance of Mary Magdalene because they did not want people to know Jesus had a wife, what else did they leave out or change? Maybe that Jesus had siblings? How does that fit in with the whole virgin birth thing? Are we to believe that Joseph and Mary never had sex for the entire time they were married? There were books that were banned and destroyed by the editors and anyone in possession of any of these banned books would be declared a heretic. Perhaps one should not rely on another man to determine the path to finding God.

Nothing like posting something to bring out the anti-semites.

Such ignorance amazes. Jesus never married, he did have siblings that were born after him, M&J had sex after Jesus which was conceived which is how he had siblings.

Perhaps one should read the Bible before he tries to pick it apart.

Since jews believe that Jesus boils in a vat of excrement in hell for all eternity,why would we,as Christians, believe ANYTHING a rabbi says about ANYTHING reguarding Jesus or Mary or any of our Christian beliefs?

I see you're familiar with the Talmud. Most here are clueless.

Gas is still under $2 here. Y'all are getting robbed.

Ya ever think that maybe God picked the Hebrews so the rest of humanity could say to themselves..." well if He can tolerate and even love those people, there IS hope for me..."

The Jewish mindset and personality can run the gamut from reprehensible to awesome, just like other races, but there is something especially putrid about the lack of honesty and abhorrent character that they can possess...sort of like the smug, fake self-deprecating, false humility that someone like a Mitt Romney rocks...but worse. ie Shumer, DeBlasio ( fake name) Weinstein, Epstein, et al....they have a thirst for power without the natural charisma and grit to earn it, so they steal it, in many different ways.... and they are more clever than most, and they know it.

If forced upon me to build a mile of fence in rocky ground , a Hasidic (sp) Jew from the enclave in NYC, would be my last choice..

Now to make war with the heathen with King David, or even Saul or Gideon, to ride a week with Elisha, listen to Paul preach, etc I would consider that the privilege of a lifetime, priceless....

Asking a rabbi about Jesus is like asking Jim Acosta about Trump.

Used to get a mag about Biblical Archeology, or some such. Seemed to be devoted to destroying people's faith and explaining away miracles using science. Funny part was how many contributers were some sort of clergy. Science tells us (or used to) that bumblebees can't fly.

How do you know Jesus never married? Because it wasn't written in the Bible? Doesn't that go along with what I had been saying? How do you know M&J had sex after Jesus? Where is that written in the Bible? Joseph was much older than Mary. How do you know they weren't his children from another woman? Does the Bible say they were the children born of Mary (Jesus's mother)? Apparently Mary had a sister named Mary of Clopas. How confusing that must have been to have 2 daughters named Mary. The argument over whether Jesus had siblings is an argument that has been going on for 1600 years or more. There are arguments about the translation as to whether it really meant siblings. Lot is called Abraham's brother in the old testament when he was actually his nephew. The catholic church as well as orthodox christianity believe Mary was a virgin her whole life. Its all the same group of people that took it upon themselves to edit the word of God and determine what we should believe.

TF49 you who blatantly denied saying things
on the CF saying I was mistaken
until I brought up your posts showing that you
did in fact say them.

Why do you take a lie and deny approach ?

Did the Rabbi actually say they used the Septuagint?

Are you sure tthose who transkated the KJV
didn't employ 3rd Century BC Greek O.T....?

JoeBob thanks for that first post. JimFrom TN - well if you are showing ignorance I can only say isn't that why we aks questions? I didn't find your questions derogatory - I found them questions and hope others with greater learning can answer them in a friendly and reasoned manner..

Sarah Silverman, thought she was a pretty attractive gal until I got five minutes in to her stand up. I prize women and can't find vile ones funny or attractive.

Do you trust a christian regarding the Torah/
Old Testament?

RABBI gets invited to christian universities
to lecture, and he knows the NT as well as
anyone here and Hebrew Torah far better.
.. ....Do you know any CF christian
that gets so invited to lecture on anything
theological ?.... 😂

There are few things from the era better documented than the translation of the King James Bible. We even have the committee notes. And, yes, the Old Testament was translated from the original Hebrew. The New Testament was translated from the original Greek and Aramaic.

Joe Bob,

to reiterate...

Did the Rabbi actually say they used the Septuagint?

Yes, he did when he discounted the King James version when speaking to the Australian guy.

The Rabbi mentioned various translations
simply saying they were not the orig words
of God in Hebrew.

Nowhere did he specifically say the KJV
used the Septuagint.

You are indeed a purveyor of fake news.

You just did it again.

"Many are called, but few are chosen".

The biggest question for me is,..why do you continually start threads like these? What is your agenda? Who do you represent?

,...and maybe,..what's the name of the demon that speaks through you?

I don’t believe in Jesus because I believe in the Bible. I believe in the Bible because I believe in Jesus. Without Jesus, the Bible nothing more to me than a collection of ancient near eastern myths.

A Jew would be my last choice for anything I was tasked.

A goy shouldn't trust any word that comes out of any Jew's mouth.


Jewish nepotism is well documented. Look at the E level of any of the major media companies.

Really? 🤔










You told the CF you were effectively ignoring
starman, Then you later lie and deny the fact.

Why should anyone trust the word of a
Christian like You?

So, the title of this tripe refers to Tovia S. debunking Jesus’ virgin birth.

He did nothing of the sort. Anyone who pays attention to what he says can see that. He talks about “almah” vs “panthenos.” That’s all. Like they say, a “nothing burger.”

He did nothing at all to refute it. “Almah” simply refers to a young girl. Much ado about nothing here. Just fake news.


But, If one is interested in truth and looks at Isaiah.... in context and looking at the the book, we see many references to Jesus. There are at least 14 prophecies about Jesus in the Book of Isaiah.....

Isaiah7:14 ..... shall call his name Immanuel

Isaiah 11:1 .... born from the line of Jesse

Isaiah 11:2 ..... anointed...... the spirit of God shall rest upon him.

Isaiah 53:7.... oppressed..... brought as a lamb for slaughter.

Isaiah 9:6-7 .... for us a child is born....a son is given...

Isaiah 40:3-5 ..... voice in the wilderness prepares the way.... John the Baptist
I
Isaiah 42 .... God’s chosen servant.....

Isaiah 8:14-15 ..... he will be a sanctuary... and a stumbling block....


But, you cannot see it.... or you don’t want to see it.

Hide in your darkness or step into the light...... your choice.

So, I changed my mind about not responding to posts by you.....

And, I never did have you on ignore..... you made that up .....

By your own admission and freewill you
you refused to read Starman posts

You purposely ignored my posts,.. true/false? . 😂

You did it AGAIN.....! More fake news from Starman.....

But maybe my memory is faulty.... did I really say that I “refused” to read Starman posts? Or, did you just make that up?


In the parlance on the ‘Fire..... what does “put you on ignore” mean?

Further, if I tell my child that I am going to the store to get apple pie but come home with chocolate cake; does that make me “a liar?”


Edit to add: this thread is no longer about “fake news” for that Tovia guy...... it has passed in the “bozone” and I quit.....

You, like some others, label anyone who dares to question your beliefs as a Troll. That is your means of defense.

I do nothing more than question beliefs and assumptions. This should be standard practice. The world would be a better place if everyone questioned beliefs, especially their own.

TF49

You purposely ignored my posts,

true/false..???




what do you make of this?



If it's not free will ignoring/refusing to read
another's posts.. then WTF is it?

Well, if the shoe fits......

Further, it seems some of you just don’t like it when someone calls bs on the nonsense you post.

Well,I will risk the bozone again.......Didn’t you say I said that I “refused” to read Starman posts?

So, I called you on that and so instead of admitting you goofed, you revert back to this bizarre question ...”You purposely ignored my posts..... true or false”

Bozone indeed.....

How would he know

goofed?... LoL
Again old man, what do you make of this...




You purposely ignored or willfully "refused"
to read my posts and others

YES or NO...?
.

Because he is saying look at the original Hebrew, not an interpretation (someone's opinion) especially when the original and translation can be compared and obvious errors seen.

The counterpoint being that he is a filthy lying Jew.

Don't Anglicans consider catholics as fraudsters
for pushing the myth/legend of the virgin birth?




errors are clearly there. But that fact is
inconvenient to many christians....
ignorance is bliss.

Kicked out of 109 countries but it's everyone else' fault.

You seem to be a permanent resident of the “bozone.”

Ok..... but I don’t have to join you there.

The so called "original hebrew" was compiled after a thousand years of jewish editing to write Jesus out of the scriptures.

And I have decided that it's best if that's all I say here.

Poor old TF49, he just cant answer a simple

YES or NO.

duck, weave, deny, lie... anything but own up.

As I pointed out, the shoe doesn't fit. You are defending your beliefs. You do that by using false accusations.

It's easy to dismiss someone as a Troll. It saves you the grief of having to actually think and question. Dismissal allows you to go back to sleep.

The same thing with your 'calling BS' claim, which is your judgment, a judgment that comes not from truth, but defending your faith.

Jesus was never in the OT/Torah, or any pre Christian literature. New testament writers tried to retrofit Jesus as the prophesied Messiah, but, as pointed out by orthodox Jews, didn't quite get it right.

That is quite an intelligent response. Some of you are so insecure about your beliefs.

Nor is the trinity...but christians tangle themselves
terribly trying to explain it.. 😂
24,000 verses in Torah and not one mention
of a trinity.

Considering God punished the Jews for not
worshipping him correctly, why would the same
God wait 1300 yrs for christianity to reveal a
trinity to them?.. why not just provide such info
for inclusion in the Torah?

The Trinity is an utterly incomprehensible, non-biblical essentially Catholic doctrine manufactured out of whole cloth.

Your horns and tail are showing.

Yep. TarQueen should probably stick to his Groid LoveFest and worshiping George Floyd.

What escapes you is that Christians cite
Isaiah 7:14 as evidence of a virgin birth
prophecy... but they use the English translation.

Yet 7:14 in Torah Hebrew makes no mention of
a virgin with child, which the Rabbi points out.

in another Torah verse "Almah" (young woman)
is in ref. to a prostitute... hence despite what
Christians falsely believe about Isaiah 7:14,
Almah does not indicate female sexual history
or virginity.

What you mistake for insecurity is in fact a bedrock understanding of the nature of the people in question, and their unerring relationship with the world around them.

Interesting point. The Septuagint is, I believe, older than any copies of Hebrew Scriptures extant in the world today.

you stated KJV didn't use the Septuagint for
translation, so where did they get the word
'virgin' from for Isaiah 7:14..?

(AKJV) Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel."

I don’t know. But I’ll take the word of some of the greatest scholars ever produced in the English world over some internet Rabbi.

You strike me as the type who reads a book or two and is suddenly afire with a thought...until you read another and go down another rabbit trail.

You are an attorney who listened to Rabbi then
you falsely claimed the Rabbi lied by saying KJV
was translated from Septuagint.

Rabbi said no such thing, so who's the liar?

Ooh, someone on the internet called me a liar. I’ll wait for you rhapsodic soliloquies on Jordan Peterson.

Attorneys fabricate narratives for a living
don't they?

And you hire your own experts to agree
with your narrative?

Why do you feel the need to make false claim
about what the Rabbi said? What value do you
get out of your lies?

I also like how the Rabbi says at one point something like, “...this is a word we all know, we use it every day in our speech” or something to that effect. Spoken Hebrew of today is literally New Hebrew. Spoken Hebrew was an entirely dead language from around the time of the 2nd century until the late 19th. No one spoke it. Even by the time of Jesus, it was largely only spoken by those reading scripture. Aramaic and Greek were the spoken languages.

What specific word are you refering to?

Why would a Christian care what a Jew says about Jesus?
Why would a Jew care to put this much thought in to convincing a Christian to alter their thoughts on Hayzues?
Might as well argue over whos version of Hansel and Gretel is "real".

I haven't really read much of this thread (out of respect for my sanity), and I'm definitely not watching any video by Rabbi Scheckelgruber, or whatever his name is.

But, for the record, most Western Old Testament Bible translations have been, unfortunately, translated from the Masoretic (ca 1000AD) modern hebrew text. A foolish mistake, in my not so humble opinion. At any rate, translators often would change corrupted passages back to what they should be, so that at least some words and phrases better match the Septuagint (which, by the way, the jews themselves considered to be inspired Holy Scripture....until that awful Jeschu guy came along).

I personally have about as much love for the Eastern Orthodox church as I have for Roman Catholicism, but, they do have one thing right. Their Bible. Majority Text New Testament, and Septuagint Old.

The history of the changing hebrew language, added Psalms, and rewritten Bible passages is pretty interesting. I encourage all to study it for themselves.

2 Peter 3:3

“Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,”

The commie anti American scum is hitting us with both barrels this fall, arent you Assstarman?

Anyone who don't buy the virgin birth
is anti USA and a commie?

Anyone who believes you is a dumbass.

All who believe Starlicker please say, Aye.

Do you know Trump tweeted that Joseph
was the father of Baby Jesus? ... Christians
were outraged and called it HERESY coz
to a true Christian God is the father.

So according to jX mentality,
Trump is anti USA and a commie.. 😂

King James who authorised the translation
was having sexual relations with his male
courtiers, sounds like the ideal person to
name the title of a Bible after.

Why would those theological scholars and
church authorities of the time allow his name
to grace a Bible?

could it be they had homosexuals and bisexuals
amongst their own?

In and around the time of Jesus, Didn't the Jews
read from Hebrew in the Synagogue and use
Septuagint for study outside Synagogue services?

Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint or give an
Aramaic equivalent?

Jews did not have the identical concept of inspiration
that christians have.. some writings were
super-inspired, others definitely inspired
and others were somewhat inspired.

They did not accept as canonical those
writings called the Old Testament Apocrypha.

Jesus was a Jew who reportedly said that he had come to uphold the law of the prophets.

And if Jesus and the disciples did speak Aramaic, why where the gospels all written in a form of High Greek?

Well just observe the low character of some
Christians who responded.

Blatantly lie, blatantly deny, personal attacks, etc

Apparently that how one's behaves when
led by the holy spirit and with Jesus in
one's heart.

Why do the CF types get all upset when it's
christians who are calling, visiting and inviting
the Rabbi to talk and answer their questions?

John 15 18-21

“If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the one who sent me.”

Wow! quoting John really proves the virgin birth,
LoL... Can you quote John, Mark or Paul explicitly
mentioning a virgin birth.?

Why would they fail to mention such an outstanding
miracle surrounding their Messiah?

Objectively questioning belief may feel uncomfortable for those who hold the beliefs being questioned, including one's own, but questioning is not a matter of hate.

DBT,

Christians are trained to be victims

and whether a Jesus actually said such
in John up for debate... and who is the
actual "John" that wrote John...?

If one were appointed by Jesus to be a witness
of Him, then when given the chance to write down
Ones testimony , would you fail to clearly
identify yourself as one of his disciples?..

Would one be careless and keep it a complete
mystery and leave it up to church fathers
from the next century to call them Matthew,
Mark, Luke, John..?

Considering the ease with which christians
fabricate and lie on the CF,
which christians in history can one trust?

James 1:5-6

“If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.”

Beyond the need to recognize their attempts at social engineering to serve International Jewery, no one really should.



Because Jews don't raise themselves up by building a better world for themselves, they do it by pulling others down below them. They've repeatedly proven they cannot do otherwise.

There are several factors at work, Judaism as a religion and the economic, political and cultural values of Jews. Not all factors necessarily being closely related.

And that is exactly what He did....... do you understand this?

I refrain from replying and plead Brandolini’s Law.

Good grief!

Maybe because they were letters written to Greek speaking people?

Maybe the writers didn't know Aramaic
only Greek.

Since we don't know who the writers are,
they could be as dishonest as TF49 and
JoeBob.... hence veracity of the gospel
narratives become highly questionable.




Rabbi is not God bothering like Christians do,
Christians seek him and ask questions,
which gets CF God botherers all worked up.

Typically they are infantile crusty old fool
fairytale 6 day creationist types... 😂

The Christian way to God. >

God's too busy talk to Jesus,
Jesus is too busy talk to Mary,
Mary is too busy talk to a high order Saint
High order Saint is too busy talk to a low
order one... and he will add it to his
pile and eventually get your message
up the chain of command.

Hebrew way to God >

God is always listening and ready to take
Your call directly.


Why jump through all the silly hoops like
a circus animal when you don't have to?

Luke 21:12

“But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you......”

John 14:6

“Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

i don't believe that is what Jesus said.

A nonbeliever is just not going to understand.

We should Pray for them.

1 Timothy 4:4-7

“For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.“

I do.

I actually believe Starman and DBT are quite brilliant.

I believe that Heaven is full of Jews, Hindus, Muslims and the list goes on...

That is what I said, that there is a verse that states it. Which does not mean that Jesus met the description of the prophesied Messiah.

What do you believe Jesus said in John 14:6...?
Just curious.

like I said christians are Indoctrinated
to have a victim mindset.. when questions
get too hard for their sheep mentality, just
claim the big bad wolf is after them.

RayF cant even tell us who wrote John.
but somehow he knows a Jesus said
such..... When Ray tried to 'correct'
Starman on Constantines 'vision' ,
turned out he had his ass handed to him
by Starman on the subject .. 😂

Prime example of Christians who ramble
pretending they know, hoping nobody will
pick up on their dismal lack of Knowledge.

Romans 16:18

“For such people are not servants of the Lord Christ, but of their stomachs; and by their smooth and well-said words the hearts of those who have no knowledge of evil are tricked.”

Mr. Starman (if I have incorrectly assumed your gender, I apologize), since you were the person who showed up out of the blue making assertions, it is NOT incumbent upon anyone else here to prove you wrong, nor to answer any of your heartfelt and objective questions. It is, however, incumbent upon you to prove your assertion. To that end, I have some questions I would like to ask you.

Since your assertions are predicated upon the presumed authority of those who call themselves jews, and on the authority of Rabbi Goldberg (or whatever his name is) specifically, I would like to ask, if I may:

Why do you consider Rabbi Horowitz (or whatever his name is) a reliable authority?
Do you consider those who call themselves jews in general to be authoritative? And if so, why?
What is it about them that inspires your confidence?
If you believe that the "original hebrew" text in use today is authoritative, why?
Do you believe that those who call themselves jews have been able to preserve, unaltered, the "original hebrew" Old Testament text, from the time of Moses until today, unchanged, unedited, with no additions or subtractions? If so, can you prove that?
If Christians are capable of altering the texts, are jews not capable of altering the text?
Is the "original hebrew" text that is in use today the language in which the Old Testament was originally written? If so, can you prove it? If not, what language, or languages, may have been used to write the books of the Old Testament?
Has the Hebrew language itself changed over time?

I could go on, but I will close with one last question, which, perhaps, is the most important.

Do the opinions expressed by Rabbi Finkel (or whatever his name is) reflect the tenets of your own personal faith and practice, or did you just post these videos with the intention of agitating Christians for your own amusement?

Christians go to the Rabbi with questions
and I posted such since their may be christians
on the CF with the same questions.

The rabid opposition displayed by a few
on the CF to such exchange between willing
Christians and Rabbi shouldn't prevent other
more reasonable and respectful christians from
listening/learning from such exchanges and
making up their own minds.

I am not telling anyone what to believe.

Kerning?

Hmm...

Oh I see you edited. Carry on.

Ah, I see. And so does everyone else.

So now you are down to quoting Paul
who never saw or heard Jesus in the
flesh...just relying on his claim that he
had a vision...how many christian cult
leaders have claimed to have visions?

Pearls and pigs and such.

Christians vary widely on what they see/interpret.
- Are you suggesting they all see things just as you do?

From an attorney that fabricated a lie
to disparage the Rabbi...

Such is the level of integrity of some devout
christians... TFF.

You keep making claims, but you’re really a pretty sad little person. Still prepared to tell us what a genius Jordan Peterson is? What books have you been reading this week. Wait, I found your picture:

You fabricated a lie saying the Rabbi said
something he didn't....typical lawyer tactic.

When have I ever called Peterson a genius?
What has JP to do with a virgin birth myth.????

No, just healthy skepticism. Just like you apply to religions not your own, Islam, Hinduism....

there are plenty of christians who place emphasis on the teachings of jesus and not the mystical side of the equation.

but most christians choose to run with the high mystical it seems, and that's their choice.

Wasn’t addressed to you. I don’t expect anyone to believe...until they do. It’s literally foolishness to those who don’t believe.

I think that the early Christians who wrote the Bible said that is what Jesus said to help grow their small religion. Understandable that is something they might do. It was all put down quite some time later by different writers.

It's an open forum. Anyone is free to comment without being addressed, and they usually do...including yourself.

Of course, you can. But the point remains, that the statement to which you apparently took some offense, was not addressed to you.

Psalm 49:10

“Surely one sees that even wise people die; fools and spiritually insensitive people all pass away and leave their wealth to others.”

Joe Bob spent his career as an attorney
cross examining people's testimonies.
When it comes to christian testimonies
by mystery authors of questionable
character and motive , he's not so comfortable
with the same approach being applied.

One need not look far for the hypocrites
in Christianity, they litter the world.

He comes across as a lawyer who would
believe his defendant client whos claim
is that God told them to kill their family.

To the contrary, I explicitly said, for that matter the Bible explicitly says, that I don’t expect any unbeliever to believe it. It is foolishness to you.

My comment had nothing to do with taking offense. It was just a matter of pointing out a fallacy.

Not expecting others to believe isn't the same
thing as you taking exception to people
questioning the claims of Christianity.

You as a lawyer who X examines testimonies
represent shining example of the objectionable
mindset christian hypocrite.

Gotcha; thanks.
A whole bunch of ancient history was put down quite some time later by different writers. People are still writing books today of the historical narrative of Julius Caesar (for example).

What do you hope to
accomplish by structuring
your sentences like
this?

There are plenty of critiques you and the Rabbi could make that would be effective, you haven’t made any that I’ve hear yet.

If you want to make an effective critique, I would recommend something like what Mark Twain said. I’m paraphrasing because I’m going off memory. Twain said that it wasn’t the parts of the Bible that he didn’t understand that caused him problems, it was the parts that he did understand that caused him problems.

Jordan Peterson now Mark Twain,
whos next?...

I don’t know. Anyone could probably do a better job than you and the rabbi.

You still haven't explained the relevance of
J. Peterson to the virgin birth myth.

You’re the one always touting him. Was the before or after he stayed up for 27 days (lol) and went to the loony bin?

all my posts can be viewed.

Show the forum where Starman always
toutes J. Peterson.

Ah, that’s right. It was your alter.

Yep, I knew you did not understand. You seem to have doubt about His upholding the law of the prophets.... but you don’t say why. Yep. That kinda like saying “The facts don’t bear out the claim! but can’t really tell you why...”. Sounds a little like just plain ole...well, you know.

Anyway, would you care to share why you believe Jesus did not meet the description of the prophesied Messiah?

I would be most impressed if you could use your own words and not just do a cut and paste from some other source.

So you imagined it was me now you imagine
I have an alter,.... Easy to see how you buy
an imaginary virgin birth tale...

A hypocrite attorney with an active imagination
firing off salvos of fiction in the desperate hope
that some of it sticks.. 😂

So, you postulate that the writers of the gospels may not have known Aramaic.... and knew only Greek? What on earth do you mean by that? I think you don’t know what you are talking about. Sounds like .... well.....

Also, would please again share with the forum why you call me dishonest?

Inquiring minds want to know....

Ha ha ha... Does the word "denial" mean anything to you - and it's not de river in Africa

“Knowledge in”.... not understood and hence rejected..... so the repartee returns .....as simple bs.....

Aka.... “knowledge in.... bs out”

are you serious?
You've been told enough times,
I Suggest you go back and read.




What do you think it means?

Why don't you identify who each of the Gospel
ghost writers were by their real names,
where each was based, then tell what
each actually knew in languages.

Folks would be most impressed if you could
provide anything that Jesus recorded for himself
instead of the usual cut/paste christians rely
on from mystery authors that didn't witness
a Jesus say or do anything.

What exactly have I cut and pasted from another website without citing the source?

Prove what you claim.

Plus you are clearly the one who can't grasp that Jesus did not fulfil the law of the prophets or their prophesied Messiah. The reasons have been cited several times.

2 Corinthians 4:4

“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

To question everything is to avoid being blinded by one's own biases.

Jive turkey?.
One could not find a more befitting name.

Dictionary (3 sources)
jive turkey (US, idiomatic, derogatory, dated slang)
A stupid person; an idiot; a chump.
someone who is unreliable, makes exaggerations
One who speaks as though they know what theyre
talking about...though they do not.- a bullshitter.

Don’t sweat that, Jiveturkey.

You’ll notice that there are smart people on the CF and there are educated ones. The educated ones tend to attack character instead of civilly make points. They’ll often insult you without provocation and then double down by suggesting you’re claiming victim status when this fact is addressed.

Many are not leftists, but they have mastered the leftist tactic of accusing their opponent of whatever behavior they conduct themselves as if being the first to make the a accusation (however, false) allows them the right to be cruel.

To them, this is a debate and gaining temporary esteem by “winning” in the online arena is more important than making compelling points or meaningful contribution that actually provokes consideration of their point or counterpoint.

The smart people, in contrast, make compelling points. Even if you don’t agree with them.

As its been said, they hate God and despise christians. By their level of input here, Wahhabism and Jihad are far more tolerable than contemporary conservative christianity. Let that sink in. That, alone, speaks volumes.

The bible clearly explains, not only the condition of their hearts, but the relevance of the observable increase in this behavior in these days (i.e., its time to dig into Daniel). Regardless, it’s important to reach out and make known (to them) that the impression of christianity that has been made upon them is not an accurate one. Saul was in far worse shape than anyone here when God untwisted his heart.

All these mother fu-king thumpers with something for sale............FOAD, fraud faking hypocrites!

Pretty sure the Wampanoag were the first ones to say that and its been repeated ever since.

Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us a new means of righteousness, Jesus Christ himself.

The law still helps those who don’t know Jesus, but it doesn’t make them righteous. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the law is a means of recognizing sin and pointing out unrighteousness. Because of Jesus and His sacrifice, we now have the New Covenant and live by the indwelling living law, the Holy Spirit.

The law always pointed to Jesus, who preceded the law and fulfilled the law and nailed the shadow of the law to the cross. The living law is written on our heart. Romans 8:1-4. The law that remains until heaven and earth pass away is God Himself revealed in Jesus, and the written law is proof Jesus IS the Messiah.

Jesus is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 10:4

Our righteousness is based on faith and not on law. Romans 10:5-17

WhiteTail48,
I concur. You said it in a most excellent way.

The ancient israelites didn't have the advantage of 1 language for everything like we do. They had Aramaic for a common language, Hebrew for their religious language, Greek for the official language (which was used for all important writings), and Latin from their Roman overlords. I don't know how many people spoke all of them or even anything other than Aramaic and Hebrew.

Rabbi need to go back.

are you serious?
You've been told enough times,
I Suggest you go back and read.


[quote=TF49]



Yes, I am serious. It helps when you provide what you think is justification for your claim that I am dishonest.... and a liar...?

Your arguments center around a statement I made regarding not responding to your posts. Later, I did indeed respond to a post of yours, hence your claim that I am a liar and dishonest. As I said before, I simply changed my mind. But, no matter, go ahead and make your case.

I encourage you to once again to support your claim..... those who read your statements and see how you re-define my words ... and describe the situation in spurious ways will be able to make up their own minds about ....credibility..... and “fake news.”

But, let me go on.....you once said that I called you a “d..h..d”. I denied that and asked you show when and where ..... as I recall, you went silent.

Does this mean that you are indeed dishonest and a liar? I suggest you go back and read......

Lord Jesus could have arrived on earth any way He, pleased.

So, you make two claims here. The first being that I cannot grasp that Jesus did not fulfill the “law of the prophets....etc”

The second is simply that Jesus did not fulfill the “law of the prophets.”

When asked why you believe Jesus did not fulfill the law.... or meet the description of the prophesied Messiah, you simply retreat.

Why retreat? Why try to back out with this weak comment “The reasons have been cited several times before”.......?

There may be those now reading that don’t know where this has been covered before.



“Knowledge in...... bs out”.

I will be back to further explain this idiom.

This has been repeated over and over and over, ad nauseam, on these threads. It’s drawn like a gun...as if it’s supposed to mean something and/or change anything. It doesn’t.
That the Jews, by and large, don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah is irrelevant. So what...? They were standing knee deep in the river and dying of thirst. That’s not a positive.....for them to not recognize their promised Messiah is a negative for them. On the other hand, Jesus ‘is’...and has been...seen by ‘billions’ of people as the promised Messiah.
“One fact about Jesus life is certain: he was crucified by the Romans. And that was THE single biggest problem ancient Jews had with Christian claims that Jesus was the messiah. There was not a Jew on the planet who thought the messiah was going to be crushed by his enemies — humiliated, tortured, and executed. That was the *opposite* of what the messiah would do. To call Jesus the messiah made no sense — i.e., it was nonsense – virtually by definition.  And that was the major reason most Jews rejected the Christian claims about Jesus.” - Bart Ehrman

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-and-the-messianic-prophecies/

*Everything* the non-thinkers like starfister and EBT post is the SS/DD.

Crap posted over and over, to allay their fear.

Mantras chanted to try and convince themselves they're not headed to hell.

Like a child repeats to himself that there's no monster under the bed, to get themselves to sleep.

They never miss a thread, and post with the mania of a suicide bomber.

What can it be, that they've already done, that's so terrible that they know they're beyond any redemption, even when redemption is offered to them?

He named himself jive turkey.

Now you are saying I insulted him?... LoL.

and christians Do carry on like victims that
easily bruise,.. Your type even quoting
Scripture saying how people "hate" you
just because they disagree or question.

Plenty people disagree on things in the world
without calling it "hate"...but you seem to get
some weird satisfaction by assuming people
hate you...its highly convenient for you to call
it hate coz you can then claim it's fulfilling a
prophecy.

More mature minded open dialog Christians
don't take your stance, why is that?

Are Christians that don't share your beliefs
and dogma hateful heretics in your mind?

You don't like what I stated numerous times
already. You deny it and won't accept it,
now you want me to repeat the exact same
yet again?. What practical purpose would
that serve you?



Many people have already read my previous
posts on the matter... What makes you think
they haven't already made their own minds up?



Safe to say you were in a state of ignoring
those members posts.



LOL...no doubt the dishonest old fool will persist
with his dumb arrogant christian pride.

No integrity deluded clowns like TF49 that
spruik to the world how they know the "truth"
of scripture ..Tff.

god's not going to allow anything to happen down here on the urth that he doesn't approve of, will he?

i say if it's not god's will he's lost all control and now we're on our own.

should it be every man for himself or remain grouped together?

Good friend Gus, find Jesus, He knows the Way.

great advice wabi.

i sense that you're not of or related to the calvinists.

and that's fine. no problem from me on that account.

i do believe god leads us and does cause us to follow?

WHY DO YOU choose to not place much emphasis on the calvinistic viewpoint?

oh, could god save someone without jesus's help, or is that not possible? please be careful in expressing your answer.

best regards, and carry on.

i look forward to hearing from various perspectives at the RoundTable.

It’s quite evident that you are to any objective observer. Do you believe intentionally acting obtuse after the fact alleviates that? No need to answer. Let all those with eyes see.


I’ll assume (by content) that this is not a professional opinion. I will concur with one thing. Plenty of people do disagree on things without calling it “hate.”. They just don’t do it when one party is as hostile as you.

Matthew 15:35-37

“The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Gus...

Why would a loving God reject anyone that
approached him directly?.. No christian can
prove that it doesn't work.

Christianity has the Greco-Roman henotheistic
approach to deity... the virgin birth is not in
the first Gospel [Mark]...and suddenly appears in
the later Matthew and Luke when (not surprisingly)
Christianity was now largely trying to convert
pagans/gentiles (outside the Levant) that were
already long accustomed to virgin birth deities.

Essentially the empire did not become Christian,
Christianity compromised by adapting to Greco-Roman
in order to increase numbers in the flock.. James the
brother of Jesus would have been turning in his grave!

After death of Gaius Julius Caesar, 42 BC the senate
made him into a God..then Caesars adopted Octavian
(emperor Augustus). became the "son of god"..
Augustus also claimed to be of virgin birth origin.

See what you can do with a few votes and the
stroke of a scribe?.. 😂

Likewise christians in 325 AD decided by process
of rigged slim vote, bribery, threats and intimidation,
that Jesus was both human and divine after
centuries of ongoing and violent dispute.

Jesus perfectly upheld the law of the prophets as God gave it. That wasn't the same as what the Jews had warped it into. Jesus took it back to its original meaning.

Gus, get out your Bible, read! Then Pray!

For real. They had what was called the Tradition of the Elders, otherwise known as the Oral Torah. They decided that when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he came down with a written Torah, and he came down with an Oral Torah, and he passed it along to Joshua who passed it along to the judges, who passed it along to the prophets. It eventually made its way to the Pharisees. And so the Pharisees had all these extra rules that were like a fence around the written law so that nobody would disobey the written law. But the Oral Torah, the Tradition of the Elders had the same authority, in their minds, and had the same authority in culture as the written Torah. And in this non-written Oral Torah, there were dozens of categories of things, not dozens of things, dozens of categories of things that you couldn't' do on the Sabbath.
In the Bible, Jesus healed a guy who had been an invalid for 38 years. He told him to pick up his mat and walk. Meanwhile the Pharisees are walkin' around, making sure nobody's violating the laws of the Sabbath, and they see this guy carrying a mat. And they said to the man who had been healed, “it is the Sabbath, the law forbids you to carry that mat.” But actually it didn't, the law didn't forbid him. Their ‘tradition’ would forbid him from carrying a mat. An example of what the Jews had warped the law into.

He's happy to self identify as a jive turkey
so what's your issue?

is JT bruised or YOU the one that's bruised?




They don't?

Ever considered there are people that are
not as fragile, sensitive and insecure as you
and hence do not perceive it as hostility?

When Christians get emotional they make
mountains out of mole hills...

They then see devils, persecution, hate, hostility
where none exist.. their occluded world of make
believe extending far beyond virgin births.

History has repeatedly shown how deranged
and dangerous such have proven to be.

The 30 YEAR war (1618 to 1648) between
Protestants and Catholics resulted in some
8 million dead,.. yet christians like wabi
gloss over such preferring to harp on about
small number of Christians being fed to lions
by Pagan Rome... Ask them how many were
actually fed to lions? and they can't answer.

Well, this is just the same old stuff from you. You seem to believe that you have proved your allegation that I am dishonest and a liar. All you did was demonstrate that I changed my mind. Only in the bozone would this be proof of “lying.”

You also ignore your obvious falsehood .... alleging that I called you a d****h***d. Seems that this is just more fake news spewed forth from you.

So, I am again going to ignore your posts and will not respond to your egregious nonsense......well, that is until I change my mind.

What were you expecting?

You categorically stated you no longer read
certain members posts, then categorically denied
you ignored their posts. ...go figure.

Yet you can't recognize your dishonesty
If such fantasy makes you happy so be it.

Another classic example is the law to not boil a kid in it's mother's milk. That apparently was a pagan ritual in Canaan at the time and God didn't want them participating in Pagan rituals. The Jews couldn't leave it at that. They expanded it to mean that you couldn't boil ANY meat in ANY milk.Then you couldn't cook meat in any pan that had ever had milk in it. Then you couldn't eat milk and meat at the same meal so they wouldn't mix in your stomach. It's still with us today. Kosher houses today have 2 separate kitchens,1 for cooking meat and 1 for milk.

Absolute fact. All of them need to.

Aliyah, indeed.

lol
This is what happens when embracing rules and regulations becomes more important than the people that these things were designed to serve and benefit.

Here's an example of a kosher kitchen. One side is for meat, the other for dairy. They can never cross. It's miles beyond what God intended, total nonsense.

lol
Can you imagine how the crippled dude felt...? The Jewish ‘holy’ law followers had been ignoring the guy his whole life, thinking he deserved to lay there an invalid for 38 years because either he sinned or his parents sinned, and along comes Jesus asking him to pick up his mat and walk...so he did. And they castigated the healed guy for doing it because he was carrying a mat on the Sabbath...! They said the law forbid him to do that, but actually it was their version of the law...they things they'd added to it...that forbid him from carrying the mat.

So you have an issue with how folks arrange
their own kitchens in homes you don't abode in.

I've been to Jewish homes for meals and didn't
care or see reason to nitpick about their kitchen
and they didn't God bother me christian style..👍

Whats your view regarding these christians
and alcohol.. Are you OK with christians that
don't allow alcohol in their home,?

http://www.olsenpark.com/Sermons11/Alcohol.html

Rubbish. Judaism provides the reasons. It's not secret information.



Retreat is your fantasy, a means of defense. An extremely poor means defense at that. I said that I have cited the reasons why Jesus fails to meet OT prophesy because that it exactly what I have done. Do I have to do it every day? The information is freely available. Judaism tells us why.




OK, once again, for the sake of other readers:

Why Jesus does not meet OT prophesy;

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)
(1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
(2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
A. Messiah as Prophet

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.
B. Descendant of David

Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (1)

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
C. Torah Observance

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the Christian "New Testament," Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
(3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
A. Virgin Birth

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
B. Suffering Servant

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.
(4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show – assuming they are genuine – is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation – i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us – who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

Further reading: "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai?"
Waiting for the Messiah

The world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. To the extent that we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions asked of a Jew on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.





You should be an expert by now.

As usual, you missed the entire point of the post.

the point of your post was to criticize
the modern Kosher kitchen.

Yet you avoid the question on christian homes
that do not permit alcohol.

IIRC, you don't believe in Bigfoot but believe
in legends of Virgin Birth.

DBT,
take it from me, TF will ask the for the same
many times over thinking it's going to be
different the 4th, 5th, 6th,..10th time.

LOL, sounds like a good tribe on NO BULLSHlT Indians.

Googled it, I could get along fine with some N.E. wine making Yankee Indians!

Meh.... nothing but a long rambling list of unsubstantiated statements. The more the words, the less the meaning.


KIBO

LIke I said, in your hatred for the Lord, you missed the entire point of the post. It had nothing to do with modern Kosher kitchens.

I don't think he hates the lord, think he hates bullshltting fake hypocrites that thrive on fear to enrich themselves with old scared peoples money that ARE convinced by con men they have to buy themselves into heaven, just as I DO, there are many polished speakers in pulpits and here on this forum as well, I never cared to learn, but would as soon crush the skull or strangle any thumper conman trying to sell me a load of bull-fu-king-shlt to my face.

Dismissing faith because of a few Shamwow television conmen is the same as hating all cops because one occasionally goes bad.

Maybe you can do us all a favor, and list all the 'fire members profiting financially from their efforts to educate in these threads.

That way, us gullible people will know who t look out for.

That's the gist of it down here too. Fortunately religion doesn't pervade our government or life in general - it's tolerated as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves. I'm pretty sure if they tried to enforce their beliefs into governing everybody's lives, churches will be burned.

In other words, you are either incapable of understanding the reasons why Jesus failed to meet OT prophesy, or you refuse to even contemplate the possibility.

Either way, in a couple of days you'll pretend the reasons were never given and claim that I am running away from the issue....when that is precisely what you do.

Faith itself is a problem, a belief held without the support of evidence is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction.

But I guess for the purpose of faith, the truth is not important.

Your fear of faith, is a way bigger problem than any believer on the 'fire has, be it physical, financial or due to family concerns.

People that are deathly afraid cannot be reasoned with, so the truth isn't even a concept, but in spite of that fact, any number of members here have attempted to reason with you.

To live in blind fear, as you do, is no life at all. And your end, whenever it comes, is certain.

Posting cut and paste google slices in religious threads appears to calm your fear, and so drives your mania to attempt to discredit simple faith.

Your "mask" of chanting bullshit mantras regarding others' confident salvation isn't going to spare you from the Covid of judgment.

Sooner or later, you're going to get it.

Because you're too afraid to be able to save yourself by considering the possibility of the truth.

It's not complicated.

^^^This^^^
Christianity does not exist ‘because’ of the Bible. It’s the other way around. Christianity made some pretty great strides during the nearly 300 years before the Bible even existed.

You're actually the one displaying fear, and childishly retorting with unsubstantiated threats, just because someone is providing facts and logic that leave you uncomfortable with the falsehoods and deceit of your own beliefs.

What 'fear of faith?'

You use the accusation to defend the indefensible, faith. I merely point out the fact that faith has a poor track record when it comes to sorting fact from fiction.

Given the sheer number of contradictory faith based religions and beliefs throughout history, right up to and including current times, what I say is self evident. Proven without a shadow of doubt.


You can only rail against the truth, attacking anyone who points it out being the your only means.

That’s because...even if one doesn’t believe that He’s the Son of God...following His teachings will make one’s life better, and make one better at life. And who doesn’t want their life to be better, and be better at life...?

It's not complicated. Hindus believe on faith, Muslims believe on faith, Jews believe on faith, but given the irreconcilable differences between these faiths they can't all be true. If one is true, the others must be false. They all claim truth, which cannot be true. They can't all be true, but they can all be wrong.

Nope.

I don't feel the need to crash every thread of believers sharing their faith and confidence in the future.

But you do, because you're trying to convince yourself you're not afraid of what's going to happen when you shake off the moronic coil.

You should realize by now, after the thousands of posts tryin ta drag other people's faith down unsuccessfully, that you're not posting for *them*.

You're posting to try and keep the boogeyman of truth from making you think about how your afterlife is going to turn out.

You faithophobes had any balls, you'd start your own thread, somethin along the lines of "I'm just gonna turn ta dust when I die, who's with me?" or something like that.

Then the fearful can gather in their own thread, and support each other in their denial that they're not going to face judgment for the things they've done.

I promise not ta crash it and spend hours postin google cut n paste crap tryin ta convince you you're not a worthless piece of crap.

Christian tantrum - feel better now?

Never felt better, before or after.

Still scared shatless?

LOL

This thread is not about believers sharing their faith, yet believers are participating. And they are quite welcome to participate. After all, it is a discussion forum.

DBT,

Well, you just went to Jewish site and did a cut and paste. I did look at a couple of the references and most if not all are easily refuted. Some points made are just plain malarkey….. but you cannot see that. You see this drivel as having some element of truth to it. You cannot distinguish truth from error.

I will digress for a moment…. I read one fairly well known Jewish writer who was quoting the Book of Job and using the text to refute Christian tenets. It perked my interest, so I looked up the Scripture references he was quoting. Turns out he was listing statements made by Job’s ungodly friends…. huge error….. Job’s friends gave him ungodly and right out bad advice. This Jewish writer was referring to their words as coming from God. They were simply words of men, not from God at all. Here is the point…. He did not realize his error and truly thought the GOD had spoken when in fact, it was just Job’s “buddies.”

If you want to know truth…. truth…. (and many people shun the truth)…. if you want truth, it takes some work… some discernment and some opening of the mind. If you are content with sweet soothing lies, you may not ever find the truth.

But, let me cut to the chase here…. consider this:

Itching ears…. “… their ears itch, and they must have those that will scratch them. The disease of lust in their souls brings forth an itch in their ears, that they will have a mind to hear only such as will by scratching please them…”

Like the Bob Dylan song says…. “You Gotta Serve Somebody”

So, where does the rabbi stand on Trump.

I went to a Jewish site because the OT/Torah is their holy book, it is their religion, their writings, their tradition....and they themselves give their reasons why Jesus does not meet the requirements of their prophesied Messiah as described in their traditions and their holy book.

Regardless of who provides the information, you fail to address the given reasons, instead resort to wailing and gnashing your teeth over what I do, or where the information comes from.

You need to lift your game and do better.

Maybe they didn't mention it since it was old news at the time.

No, you went to the Jewish site because you have itching ears.

Truth is anathema to you. I suspect you fear it. Darkness is afraid of the light.

Simple.....

Why do you disparage those that ask simple, logical questions? What makes you appear so angry and defensive? What are you so afraid of?

What a nonsensical, idiotic statement. In the first place, faith is not "a belief held without [supporting] evidence". It is a belief held on the basis of some evidence, but evidence insufficient to make faith unnecessary, viz., evidence short of sure knowledge. And who are you to say that to God faith does not have some essential, salvific value that, for His purposes, makes it essential in His followers? In any event, the simple, inescapable, irrefutable fact is that every person on this planet believes in something on the basis of faith, including you DBT. Are the things you believe on the basis of faith untrue simply becuase you can't prove them incontroveribly true to every skeptic? With almost every post you confirm that you are indeed like "that Cretin who said that all Cretins are liars".

That makes it clear, you are unable to argue reasonably or logically.





Truth? It's also clear that you don't know the meaning of the word.


Instead of addressing the issues being raised logically and reasonably, you typically turn it into a pissing contest. Believe whatever you like. It's not a good example of Christianity.

Yet older news when metioned in the later
Matthew and Luke... so why bother?




Christians are trained that they must control the
narrative... Anyone that questions is a troll to TF.
Hes is a crusty 6 day creationist, unicorns and
talking serpent and donkey type...so we can
take it he fears a burning hell.

CF christians that support evolution would be
diabolical heretics to him... coz they present
science that constantly burst his fragile christian
bubble mind where superstiton, legends and myth
take precedence.

You have no idea.

Not a clue.

Nonsensical is making up terms and definitions that suit your own needs, definitions that are patently false.

Wake up:

faith
/ (feɪθ) /
noun
1 - strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
2 - a specific system of religious beliefs, the Jewish faith
3 - Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises, a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason


"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)



"Faith is the antithesis of proof." ~ NY State Supreme Court Justice Edward J. Greenfield, 1995


"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as a useful tool." - Seneca

You're an idiot of the highest order. Really and truly. I've made up nothing and redefined nothing. You've merely idiosyncratically and arbitrarily selected defintions you think (quite ignorantly) are authoritative because ratify your position while failing utterly to account for variant definitions or contexts (non-theistic) in which faith is wholly and utterly applicable as an intellectual construct. In your intellectual perfidy (in which are you consistently exempt your own faith and metaphyiscs from your analysis) you are at least consistent! But the criticism you make of faith applies equally to the beliefs you yourself harbor on the basis of faith, which is why I said (as think I've said before of you) "you are like the Cretin who said all Cretins are liars".

You mistake faith and facts. Facts are verifiable. Faith is made up to try and explain things not understood and devoid of proof. There are many without faith but have facts. Like they say, science doesn't know everything, religion knows nothing.

Rude and arrogant. Here you are redefining faith to suit your own needs:

''In the first place, faith is not "a belief held without [supporting] evidence". It is a belief held on the basis of some evidence, but evidence insufficient to make faith unnecessary, viz., evidence short of sure knowledge. - Tarquin ''

Seeing that we are going down this road on your instigation..there lies an idiot of the Highest order. You don't even realize what you were doing when you described faith. A description is definition. When you describe something, you are defining it.



No, you idiot, anybody with half a brain should understand that words may have multiple applications and meanings, and that it is the context in which the word is used that defines its meaning in that context...hence the definition of faith I supplied is in reference to religion.

The definition and the quotes clearly refer and relate to religion and faith. Wake up Noddy. Grow a brain.

Sadly, I don't hold much of hope of that ever happening.

Poor Tarquin doesn't have a clue. Zilch, Zip, Nada, clueless. All wind, no substance.

The idea that Mary was not a "virgin" as we understand the term now is not new or heretical. I had it explained a long time ago by a rabbi. Stick with me here.

As it was explained to me, "virgin" meant a young female that a man could legally marry. I think the original term was "alma." There were other terms that had slightly different meanings in that time. For instance, adultery meant sexual relations with someone you could not legally conceive a child with. If it was legal, then it was fornication. For instance, fooling around with the neighbor girl (alma) was fornication. Fooling around with her after she was married was adultery. They did not have an accurate test for whether a woman had had relations with a man, so all young, unmarried women were considered alma unless there was proof to the contrary. Fooling with your sister? Adultery. Fooling with your brother's widow? Adultery. Fooling with an unmarried 22 yr old that you could legally marry? Fornication. This was a key issue back then. Adultery got you stoned to death. Fornication was more readily forgiven.

So how does this muck with Christian faith? It shouldn't. Mary was an "alma." She conceived. This legally fulfills the prophecy of Isiah. If she'd been a 35 yr old divorcee on her 3rd kid, then she would not have been an alma and the prophecy would not have been fulfilled.
The bigger question here is whether she conceived without sin. For Christians, this is the main question we need to grapple with is was Mary without sin when she conceived Jesus? This is a matter of Faith. We're told she was. You either believe it or not. I believe the tenet is true. If she had been raped by a Centurion as some rumors suggest, then she would have been unclean and not able to fulfill the prophecy.

That's my understanding of things. This explanation happened 40 years ago, so I might be a bit muddy on the details. The big takeaway is that one should not get hung up on the definition of virgin in determining their faith.

The point, moron, is that you incessantly exempt your own metaphys (your own "faith") from your criticism of faith when in fact your criticism of faith implicates yours as much as that of any theist. Regrettably, but you're too ignorant to understand that. Cretin.

The point, moron, is that you incessantly exempt your own metaphys (your own "faith") from your criticism of faith when in fact your criticism of faith implicates yours as much as that of any theist. Regrettably, but you're too ignorant to understand that. Cretin.

Poor Tarquin doesn't understand meaning of a words in relation to context. Poor Tarquin doesn't know that he is defining faith when he tells us what he believes faith to be. Poor Tarquin makes up his own word definitions, what a precious child.

Tarquin, double post....are you getting frantic? Losing your nerve? Of course you are. You know you are wrong but can't face it.

Poor little Tyke

Faith;
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>- Merriam Webster

Trust;
1 a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed

Confidence;
1 a : a feeling or consciousness of one's powers or of reliance on one's circumstances <had perfect confidence in her ability to succeed> <met the risk with brash confidence - Merriam Webster

(assurance carries a stronger implication of certainty and may suggest arrogance or lack of objectivity in assessing one's own powers)


In other words, one builds trust and confidence through direct experience with people and things, but one has faith in matters that have not been tested.


"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. - Hebrews 11:1

1 - faith is the substance of things hoped for: your desire for the existence of a god.
2- God (as a concept) is unseen, undetectable and unknowable - in this instance, 'things not seen'
3 - faith, as substance of what you hope for, your desire for the existence of a god, is defined as being your evidence, and your foundation, for your belief in the existence of god.
4 - Hope itself is not evidence that can be used to justify a belief in 'things not seen (god in this example)'
5- Faith is based on hope (or desire), consequently faith is not a belief that is based on verifiable evidence.
6 - A belief held on the basis of faith is an unjustified or unfounded belief.

Agreed.
Another big takeaway is the denunciation of the virgin birth is simply a means used by some agenda driven deniers to denounce Christianity itself. It’s simply a tool used by some agenda driven deniers to denigrate the committed views of the huge majority of devout people in the western world, which remains...despite their efforts...profusely Christian.

The Point, the only point is that Jesus God died for our sins.

Most of postings about the topics covered here are not simple and logical questions and you know it. This thread was started with an agenda. You know that as well....

It is not me who is afraid..... maybe I just have a low tolerance for baloney.

We are saved by the grace of God through Jesus. That’s it. Jesus made it indescribably easy for us. It is a free gift. Gee, folks, what more do you want? We are offered the free gift of eternal life. What more is there?

All a person has to do to be saved is believe in Jesus Christ and accept His grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9. Apart from simple faith in Jesus, there can be no salvation. John 14:6. Biblical faith is simply resting in Jesus for salvation.

Our only hope is in Jesus, and our faith in Him is counted as righteousness before God’s throne. If someone doesn’t have or understand the righteousness of Jesus, it leads to misunderstanding, resentment, and defensiveness. It’s tragic the mockers, doubters, and unbelievers don’t see Jesus and His free grace as sufficient enough to have their eyes opened to the Holy Spirit’s leading.

You will keep on seeing but will not perceive; you will keep on hearing but will not understand. Matthew 13:13

No...... you reverted to cut and paste because you cannot discuss any of these points with any of your own competence.

You cannot develop or defend your own thoughts/ideas or present your own viewpoints backed up by anything other than someone else’s cut and paste.

Meh....

I'm travelling and haven't had time to read all 13 pages of this but doesn't it seem possible or even likely that Joseph was actually Jesus' biological father? It seems the virgin birth story could have been a later addition. It is certainly unnecessary to my belief in Jesus being who he claimed to be. As to him being a descendant of David. In 27 generations in a relatively small population almost everyone would have some David lineage. Going back that many generations you have millions of grandfathers. Do the arithmetic. I'm not sure why belief in the virgin birth is a make or break thing in determining your Christianity.

Mary asked the angel how she could have as child since she had no husband. She was chaste and a virgin. 1000 years before, the prophets said that Jesus would be born of a virgin.
What difference does it make? It's whether the Bible is true or not. If Jesus had a physical father, the Bible lied and is worthless. As a human, Jesus would have sinned since 'all have sinned and are worthy of death.'

Don't you think the bible section we know as the New Testament might have been edited and added to for purposes of its editors? What about the writings that didn't make the cut? Who decided that? There are writings asserting that Thomas was Jesus' twin brother. Mary Magdalene is believed by some to be Jesus' wife. How does that detract from Jesus' teachings?

While I believe that Mary was an actual virgin, I’ll add that the use of the English term “virgin” was somewhat less precise than it is today as well. For instance, Queen Elizabeth I died one year before work in the King James Bible commenced. Care to know what she was known as? The Virgin Queen, of course. Though I doubt that few considered her an actual virgin, she was known by that moniker because she never married and unmarried women of good reputation (and the Queen must have the best reputation) were considered to be virgins. If they weren’t, they were whores. So, young unmarried women were often referred to as maids or virgins without actual knowledge that they really were maids or virgins. In fact, some of them were called that when it was well known they weren’t because of social conventions.

So, at least with the King James Bible, calling Mary a virgin was literally the closest English word to the original Hebrew at that time.

Yes sir. And we can either accept it or reject it. But if we accept it, He’ll walk through this life with us. Following Jesus has as much or more to do with this life as it does the next.

You are so right

I guess they are many ways to say the same thing.

What you say applies to you, not me. I provide arguments of my own that are supported by evidence, which I quote and cite.

You have failed to address a single point.

Instead you resort to insults and ad Homs like an internet coward in the safety of your anonymity. You lie as a matter of routine.

Hmm.... I am not aware.... or do not remember ..... when you did anything but a cut and paste..... or simply make broad sweeping statements that were really nothing more than your own biased opinions. Maybe you did.... at least in your own mind.

Do you really expect folks to respond to your mindless cut and paste responses?

You are a perfect example of what Brandolini has talked about.

The Holy Spirit. God wanted us to have the truth and he used the Spirit to ensure we do. The compilers of the Bible got it right thanks to the Spirit.

I don't understand people who demand that every little thing in the Bible must be true---or else the whole thing is false.

Jesus was resurrected and founded a great religion. All else is secondary.

For instance, Luke states that the census that caused the trip to Bethlehem occurred "when Cyreneus was first governor of Syria." Cyreneus is merely the Greek form of Quirinius. Flavious Sulpicius Quirinius, a prominent and well known Roman, became governor of Syria in AD 6. Herod the Great, another well documented ancient, died in 4 BC.

So there you have an obvious error in the New Testament. So what? Means nothing to the overall theme.

To me, Christianity is ‘not’ a fragile house of cards that comes tumbling down when we discover, for example, that the world was not created in 6 literal days, nor is the earth only 6,000 years old. Others believe differently, and I’m cool with that.

That's because you are a Buffoon and a liar. Your lies come easily.



What Jews say about Jesus not meeting the criteria for Messiah is neither mindless or false. The reasons are described and supported. You fail to address any of the points because you are a Buffoon. You can only instigate an exchange of insults. That is your only talent

Plus I gave you arguments that are not copy and paste. You don't recognize anything that does not suit your needs. Again, your only talent is instigating an exchange of insults.

I posted my argument against faith based on Hebrews 11:1. The only quote is the verse, the argument is mine. You, as a Buffoon, failed to address a single point.


"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. - Hebrews 11:1

1 - faith is the substance of things hoped for: your desire for the existence of a god.
2- God (as a concept) is unseen, undetectable and unknowable - in this instance, 'things not seen'
3 - faith, as substance of what you hope for, your desire for the existence of a god, is defined as being your evidence, and your foundation, for your belief in the existence of god.
4 - Hope itself is not evidence that can be used to justify a belief in 'things not seen (god in this example)'
5- Faith is based on hope (or desire), consequently faith is not a belief that is based on verifiable evidence.
6 - A belief held on the basis of faith is an unjustified or unfounded belief.

It's more than just little things. There are many contradictions and absurdities. As it is claimed that the Bible is the inspired word of God, it's fair to expect something clear and concise, with few if any errors.

Christians have so many seperate and divisive
groups coz they disagree on the "truth".



Signing up to be a God botherer is agenda driven.
You disagreeing with both christian and non
is based on pushing an agenda.

It bothers you that people question and discuss
outside the narrow and naive frame of your mental
conditioning...they be trolls, heretics, heathens all
living in the dark coz they don't conform to the programmed beliefs in your personal headspace.

Well, I do believe you are “exercised.”

Liar and buffoon....... really? Tell me, how old are you? This is a juvenile response....something to be expected from a child.

Btw.... you are totally off target in your comments above regarding Hebrews 11:1.

I will try and make some time today to drill down on your comments on Hebrews 11:1.

There are a small number of people who are specifically Jesus myth theorists, a vehement group of agenda driven deniers who are adherents to this fringe theory that the story of Jesus is mythology. It ranks right up there with the cadre of people who still claim the Holocaust didn’t happen. Very few of em’ are actually scholars with any training in biblical studies, ancient history, ancient languages such as Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek, or any other pertinent area of study. None of em’ teach Early Christianity or New Testament at any accredited university in the Western world...because their extreme views are so unconvincing...it’d be like giving a literal 6 day creationist a biology teaching position at an accredited university.
Jesus is worshipped today by literally billions of people. He is the greatest individual in the history of Western civilization. Their claim that the Jesus story is a myth fails on its own proposition. “With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) — sources that originated in Jesus’ native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind. ...the claim that Jesus was simply made up falters on every ground. ... like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.” - Bart Ehrman

Jesus , IS, Lord.

perhaps it's time for us humans to address ourselves and what we need and possibly want.

some say half of africa is christian now. very very few at the beginning of 1900.

christianity has spread like wildfire in africa, only bothered by islam.

it's fair to guess that most people want a god, a savior.

others think and believe they need a god, a savior.

it's built into the psyche of many people.

some 33,000 denominations.

something for everybody.

needs & wants are met.

You said: "It bothers you that people question and discuss outside the narrow and naive frame of your mental conditioning...they be trolls, heretics, heathens all living in the dark coz they don't conform to the programmed beliefs in your personal headspace."

?????

Nah, it's just that I have a low tolerance for baloney and fake news. This statement is just another example of the stuff that is fabricated up in your own noggin and then spills out and splatters..... just more fake news conjured up by you.

Just another set of tired and meaningless old saws from the dark recesses of your mind.

Seems to me that you're getting exercised...... Does it feel good to vent your spleen like that?


But, I am waiting on a call.... so tell me.... what exactly is a "God botherer" and also.... what did you expect when you started this thread? Did you expect folks would just gobble up that nonsense and not "bother" you.....

The questions really are that simple and logical. Believers fail in providing credible answers, and many go into aggressive defence mode, or claim victim status, or they may simply discount those parts of the faith documents (ie bible) that they themselves deem to be non-credible (how they then substantiate which parts to believe in is just dumb founding). Some also claim that they have spoken with god which seems to be the trump card meant to end all debate.

Believers with a system of faith that has no factual basis, or proof, incredible unverifiable claims and significant contradictions and no tangible explanation for on-going real-life events – they are the ones that have the agenda. A self-fulfilling agenda to ease the fear of death but, as history and on-going events show, an agenda for control of others ie follow my faith and the world will be a better place.

Those without faith have a low tolerance for balony.

The strange thing is that you instigate this sort of exchange by routinely resorting to insults and slurs....then act the tragic victim, the pure little lamb when it gets flung back in your face.

That's what makes a self entitled fool and a buffoon.

You feel entitled to insult at will in the security of your anonymity, then howl in protest when the poster reacts in defense.

Defense is not the same as offense. You are the offensive one who howls in protest when you get a reaction. A coward.




You don't have a clue. You see what you want to see and disregard the rest. Your world is a world of fantasy and magic that you assume conforms to your own beliefs and fantasies.

That is the mind of a child, someone who cannot face reality.

For someone so full of baloney, that's most unfortunate.

[quote=Gus]

some say half of africa is christian now. very very few at the beginning of 1900.

christianity has spread like wildfire in africa, only bothered by islam.

[/quote

Yeah....right....

My tracker in Zim was a practicing Christian. He had three wives and 33 children. The sons tended his cattle herd. He sold the daughters when they became teenagers. Not for a night but permanently as in slavery. The price was five cows. If you didn't have five cows, you could pay four cows and a couple of goats.

well see. i'm sure if we researched carefully enough and in some detail, surely we can find somewhere to fit that person into one of the 33,000 sub-groups. everybody doesn't worship in the christian tradition like us hard-shell southern baptists do.

This is what fear looks like (and there's dozens more):

DBT,

Here is what you posted:

I posted my argument against faith based on Hebrews 11:1. The only quote is the verse, the argument is mine. You, as a Buffoon, failed to address a single point.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. - Hebrews 11:1

1 - faith is the substance of things hoped for: your desire for the existence of a god.
2- God (as a concept) is unseen, undetectable and unknowable - in this instance, 'things not seen'
3 - faith, as substance of what you hope for, your desire for the existence of a god, is defined as being your evidence, and your foundation, for your belief in the existence of god.
4 - Hope itself is not evidence that can be used to justify a belief in 'things not seen (god in this example)'
5- Faith is based on hope (or desire), consequently faith is not a belief that is based on verifiable evidence.
6 - A belief held on the basis of faith is an unjustified or unfounded belief.


So, let’s go through it……

Your Point #1…. you start off ok with a scriptural quote….. BUT…. then you define “faith” as “your desire for the existence of a god.” This is bogus and you should know it. You are simply using your own definition…your own opinion …... the fact is, “faith” is NOT a desire that one might have for the “existence” of a god.

Point #2….. you try to define “GOD” as a concept…. that in itself woefully inadequate to define God. Then you go on and give your own opinion again…. saying that God is “not seen” … ie ….undetectable and unknowable. This is simply a broad sweeping …personal opinion…. that’s all.

God tells us time and time again that He wants us to know Him…. and I for one do indeed know Him….. more about this later.

Point #3 …..here is what you state: “………..your desire for the existence of a god, is defined as being your evidence, and your foundation, for your belief in the existence of god.” You could not be more wrong and frankly your statement has precious little logic to it.

Let me paraphrase what you are saying….. you allege that …. “my desire for the existence of a god”…… Get it? You are stating that my desire is defined as being my evidence of God…. my desire is my “foundation” …… This is just illogical baloney. This is pure “fake news” ….. you did not gain that belief from me. I do not know of any Christian that believes that…. my “desire is my evidence.”

If you try to follow that logically…. one might “desire” that God be a worm that I dug up at the river bank, but my “desire” .. no matter how sincere or misguided it may may…. does not make the worm to be “God.” Faith is only valuable and effective when it is placed in what is….real… right and true.


Point #4 …. Hope itself is not evidence that can be used to justify a belief in 'things not seen (god in this example) I agree with this. Hope … by itself is NOT evidence. But of course, you did not show that that is what I or anyone else believe. You may want to think that I believe that…. that might give your mind a little peace, but that would be a lie…. a falsehood…. “Hope itself” is not evidence…. but you seem to think that others believe that….. what is that… a conjured up straw man that you knock down?

Point #5 …. Your words are in italics, mine in bold….” Faith is based on hope (or desire),…. (your error has already been shown so your follow-on statement is illogical and without merit) …..consequently faith is not a belief that is based on verifiable evidence. Your word “consequently” is invalid.

Well, you are wrong again. You give your….. opinion…. that faith is not a belief that is based on verifiable evidence. Think about this for a moment. You have heard this before, but I will try it again…..My faith is indeed based on truth and verifiable evidence.

Point #6 ….. You present this as if it is a conclusion and you seem to see it as truthful and correct: “ 6 - A belief held on the basis of faith is an unjustified or unfounded belief.”

Your conclusion is invalid as has been shown. But, you may not see that. I can lay it out for you, but I cannot comprehend it for you.


Try to follow this:

Faith is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God.”

It is given to those who seek it.

Deuteronomy 4:29 “But if from there you seek the Lord you God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

God goes to live… within…. the believer. He makes His home in the heart. When He does this…. it is real, it is powerful and the presence of God within is indeed proof.

John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.”

1 Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

Once God is within a person, there is no doubt and this presence of God is indeed proof.

If one looks up these three themes…. Faith is a gift….. It is given to seekers….. God responds by going to dwell within the believer….. one will find dozens of confirming verses.


But, if you don’t want it…. if you choose not to seek it…. you will not find it. Simple.

You haven't shown anything. Your rationale fails because you don't actually consider what was said, or what the verse, Hebrews 11:1 actully says.

Regardless of what I say, or verses say, you interpret anything and everything that does not suit your needs in a way that that does suit your needs.

It's delusional.

Hebrews 11:1 essentially tells us that faith is its own justification, its own justification.

In other words, a belief held without the support of evidence.

And your objection of some evidence is absurd. If there is evidence, but the evidence is insufficient to prove the proposition, yet you hold a firm conviction of truth regardless, that is faith, that is a belief held without the support of evidence.

But religion doesn't have some evidence for supernatural entities and events, it has none.


Yet some people are convinced in the truth of their own version of God. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians....and that is faith: holding a conviction of truth without the support of evidence.

Err, no. Nothing of the sort.

Your response is an act of desperation.

It is you and some believers (not all) who fear questioning.

Questioning is not fear, it is fearlessness, the willingness to inquire wherever that may lead or how uncomfortable the truth.

I'll interrupt this thread for some Joyful Noise.

Yeah, I'm so desperate I spend alla my time in fear, tryin ta convince myself I'm not goin ta hell.

The very next page, a your curriculum fearae: