Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
That brings up additional questions though. I can shoot a compact just fine super close. Obviously, I can shoot a larger gun better at a longer distance. As the number of threats increases, you may need to start engaging at a farther distance just because you may need to deal with several targets.
No one can't predict the nature of the fight. Work back from worst case scenario and be honest w/ yourself. A gun that you can present quickly, shoot w/ speed and accuracy is a start. Having lots of ammo helps preclude the possibility of missing the opportunity to succeed. Absolute faith in the dependability of your choice is paramount. It is a weird world out there, a G19 and 2 extra 17 round mags is, for me, optimum. Lots of dryfire and lots of ammo and a shot timer will validate your choice.
You have to prove for yourself what really works. Practice, practice, practice.
Your pistol is for fighting your way back to your truck to get your rifle.
That is as dumb today as it was when first stated.
mike r
Seems to me if you've managed to shoot your way out of crowd of bad guys/gals and have managed to get back to your truck, why not get in your truck and haul azz outta there??
With a 380 I can get over 2 or 3 to get the pump shotgun in the truck. Honestly I am the size of an NFL lineman. I could run over several without the pistol and drive over the ones I didn't flatten on my way to the truck. I have had to wade through a crowd a few times of aggressive acting thugs and they gave when I shoved through them. They didn't say anything either. The first time was in South Memphis. It taught me I needed to carry about35 years ago.
I'm certainly no expert, but my personal belief is that there's not much a 1911 in .45 ACP can't handle. For example, in your 20-30 bad guy scenario, suppose you drop 1 or 2 of those bad guys with well-placed shots to the brain pan or center mass? The bad guys will turn tail and run. I understand you cannot count on such an outcome, but it's been shown to be the case with these commie agitators time-and-time again. I also prefer the increased terminal performance of the larger caliber. My concern with a high capacity smaller caliber pistol is both the reduced performance and the increased difficulty of keeping track of round count.
Been carrying everyday for many years Carry a Glock 26 in Khaki pants pocket in a Mic Trigger guard Holster,Factory 10 Round Magazine along with the round in the chamber. Also a Ruger LCP with a Ruger 7 round Magazine with round in the chamber in Propper Blouse shirt pocket along with an extra Ruger 7 round magazine in another shirt pocket. So I feel like I have enough rounds to get me back to my truck. Once I get back to my truck I have a way to escape or an over 5000 Pound weapon depending on the situation.
If you need to engage targets at a longer range Try to have a Rifle as opposed to a Handgun.
Does anyone actually leave a good rifle or shotgun unattended in their vehicle? If you live alone in the wilderness this question is probably not relevant.
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
If at all possible this is the best course of action. However these things can stir up at a moments notice so It pays to plan out a course of action Just in case it is needed.
I thought I was going to have to put an barred owl down a few minutes ago, but the oil pan did a decent job. Hopefully 5 shots of 38+P would have done it.
Does anyone actually leave a good rifle or shotgun unattended in their vehicle? If you live alone in the wilderness this question is probably not relevant.
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
Totally agree with this perspective JB
Of all the anecdotes I have ever heard of people involved in an engagement NO ONE wished they had less capacity.
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
Someone with functioning cerebrum, good. First rule of surviving unexpected protest or riot is to join the rioters until safe exit form the crowd is possible. Correct answer is dress in manner similar to locals and carry Black Lives Matter shirt with you.
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
Someone with functioning cerebrum, good. First rule of surviving unexpected protest or riot is to join the rioters until safe exit form the crowd is possible. Correct answer is dress in manner similar to locals and carry Black Lives Matter shirt with you.
Cant tell by your vocabulary whether you are Slevek3 or Slavek4. Isn't it time for a shift change?
Your pistol is for fighting your way back to your truck to get your rifle.
That is as dumb today as it was when first stated.
mike r
Seems to me if you've managed to shoot your way out of crowd of bad guys/gals and have managed to get back to your truck, why not get in your truck and haul azz outta there??
L.W.
Yep. Defense versus Offence. It makes a difference, especially to jury's.
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
In today's world, the mobs may come to you.
I know. I hope nobody here has that happen either. It's already been said to use what works best for you. My full length 1911 is what fits that bill for me. It's easier to shoot accurately than any other center fire I have and it's functions flawlessly. Why limit yourself to just one handgun though?
Hurry up election so we can see for sure how much ammo we need!!!!
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
In today's world, the mobs may come to you.
I know. I hope nobody here has that happen either. It's already been said to use what works best for you. My full length 1911 is what fits that bill for me. It's easier to shoot accurately than any other center fire I have and it's functions flawlessly. Why limit yourself to just one handgun though?
Hurry up election so we can see for sure how much ammo we need!!!!
Nothing wrong with a 1911. Have several. Along with multiple Glocks. But if your waiting for the Election to “see how much ammo you need”, you’ve already screwed the pooch.
Your pistol is for fighting your way back to your truck to get your rifle.
That is as dumb today as it was when first stated.
mike r
Seems to me if you've managed to shoot your way out of crowd of bad guys/gals and have managed to get back to your truck, why not get in your truck and haul azz outta there??
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
In today's world, the mobs may come to you.
I know. I hope nobody here has that happen either. It's already been said to use what works best for you. My full length 1911 is what fits that bill for me. It's easier to shoot accurately than any other center fire I have and it's functions flawlessly. Why limit yourself to just one handgun though?
Hurry up election so we can see for sure how much ammo we need!!!!
Nothing wrong with a 1911. Have several. Along with multiple Glocks. But if your waiting for the Election to “see how much ammo you need”, you’ve already screwed the pooch.
Haven't bought any for a long time, ammo that is. I've been of the mindset that it needed to be an ongoing thing for many years, even before Clinton. I guess you could say I've been waiting and prepping a long time. The old Boy Scout motto, "always be prepared".
Yep used to concern myself with a robbery or car jacking situation so I had carried a 1911 when I first started concealed carrying. Today with rioters I’m carrying a Glock with 15+1 mag.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
But sir, while your data may be as good as it gets, it might be dated. New or increasing threats seem to have risen, or so it seems. Your thoughts for the present crazy times vs. the last 50 years of data ?
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
But sir, while your data may be as good as it gets, it might be dated. New or increasing threats seem to have risen, or so it seems. Your thoughts for the present crazy times vs. the last 50 years of data ?
Other than the Rodney King Fiasco in LA, we haven’t seen riots, looting, and burning on this kind of scale in the last 50 years. All bets are off now.
Gonna get worse come Election Day. Especially when Trump wins.
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I the past 25 years I've been in a downtown metropolitan area twice. Around here "BLM" still means the Bureau of Land Management.
I'll stick with my high capacity M686's in my belt holster.........
I have trouble coming up with a situation where you'd need it. Pasty white burnouts there for the car fires and selfies won't stick around when the shooting starts. The people who will stick around aren't going to just stand next to each other at seven yards while you shoot 17+1 of them.
But then again if Kyle Rittenhouse or Jake Gardner taught us anything it's that the Democrats going to declare you the white supremacist aggressor and lock you up forever at the first shot, so in a manner of speaking all of the rest are on the house.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
Then you haven't studied very hard.
Name even just ONE. bet you can't. give place, time, date, etc.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
I have trouble coming up with a situation where you'd need it. Pasty white burnouts there for the car fires and selfies won't stick around when the shooting starts. The people who will stick around aren't going to just stand next to each other at seven yards while you shoot 17+1 of them.
But then again if Kyle Rittenhouse or Jake Gardner taught us anything it's that the Democrats going to declare you the white supremacist aggressor and lock you up forever at the first shot, so in a manner of speaking all of the rest are on the house.
It was enlightening to watch what appeared to me to be professional rioters actually running after the young man armed with a carbine and it seems that they knew he would use it. The boy broke my first self defense rule. Try your best to just not be there in the first place. He did hold up well in the end though. At least he is alive, in jail but still alive. I still carry a 1911 but lately have been looking at building a 2011 or just break down and go tupperware.
Your pistol is for fighting your way back to your truck to get your rifle.
That is as dumb today as it was when first stated.
mike r
Seems to me if you've managed to shoot your way out of crowd of bad guys/gals and have managed to get back to your truck, why not get in your truck and haul azz outta there??
L.W.
Sage advice LW !
Seems to me, if a guy knew he was gonna be in a fight with a pistol, he'd prefer he had a rifle.
And since we are all thinking ahead, why not have an AR behind the seat and 2 high cap mags on your hip?
If I'm putting myself in the best position to win a gun fight, I'm holding an AR in my hands.
Since they do not OWB very good, I'll take one in the truck over one in the safe at home.
If hauling ass is an option, I might.
If innocent lives are in danger, I'd sure hope we'd all grab that AR and head back in there and try to finish things.
i"ve been studying gunfight info for 50 years and in the US, no civilian has HAD to hit more than 3 people, here in the US, and survived that need, with just a pistol, since the end of the Indian wars. It's pretty rare to have to to hit more than one and very rare to have to hit more than 2. (and still escape with your life, with only a pistol). Some HAVE shot that many, but some of those shot were fleeing. There may be a case of a cop or two having had to hit 4 people, but I've found no documentation of such a thing.
Then you haven't studied very hard.
Name even just ONE. bet you can't. give place, time, date, etc.
Name the last time we had a well financed and well organized Marxist Revolution in the country? Things have changed.
Unless you are Kyle Rittenhouse, an idealistic young man who picked a heck of a good deed to do in that war zone, I'd say ......
........you just never know.
If / then scenarios can go on and on. I'm just recalling the personal life lessons, so YMWV Your mileage WILL vary.
1. There's too many variables and situations. In hindsight even the young kyle would have stayed home that night. Some here never go to town, unless its full of prairy dogs. Some live in Chicago maybe.
2. If you are going into a known conflict and arming for it, then chances are you work for uncle sam or the local paramil forces....normally leos. Then that decision has been made for you. It's all uniform and you are g.i.ssue. That's not most of this audience.
3. Carry what you have the most experience with and will have with you considering weather/ clothing, comfort, etc. Extra mags are a good idea, as is a baton, bug repellent... habanero pepper flavoured....flash light. But how often will someone without a huge duty belt who is not leo carry all that? That's why your choices may change as do circumstances. Priorities change. Keep in mind that not all threats require lethal force. A non lethal force multiplier is more likely to be required. Training in non/ less lethal force multipliers is a good idea too.
4. Your biggest threat would likely be the one(s) you don't expect. There's book shelves of information online and print on situational awareness, etc. That's good to be familiar with. However, what if you are caught off guard because you're asleep at home or away? Example...The weapon might not be within reach. What do you do? This is why I believe that training in multiple scenareos is most helpful.
5. You can't choose your enemies/attackers, but you can choose your weapons, training, and practice.
6. Most importantly, if / when you buy the farm, you better know the Judge.
7. If you know the Judge's Son, and befriend Him, he will be there with you through every threat.... even when other friends aren't. When you buy the farm, He will invite you over for dinner. 👍
Just seven related thoughts off the top of my drowsy head. Maybe there's something in there for someone else to glean. If not, peace and have a good weekend.
Seems a lot of people are also placing a lot of faith that they're going to be able to shoot a couple rounds and all the Antifa and BLM manbun warriors are going to scatter like cockroaches. Even if that has happened in some circumstances, if you think that they are not going to exchange their stupid signs and megaphones for more guns and ammo, I think you're being naive. Especially, if Trump wins, we're going to see an incremental increase in their presence and how well they are armed. You're assuming that we may step up our presence and activities but somehow the other side is just going to just keep doing the same thing.
Does anyone know how to help Kyle Rittenhouse, because they have taken down his "Go Fund Me" accounts and refunded the money? Is he still being held with a $2 million dollar bond? I claim he was innocent based on the films. He only shot in self defense and turned himself in. The people who attacked him have not been charged. The only thing I see he did, was possibly his age (17). He was immediately accused and charged with murder, attempted murder, and having a gun under 18 (a misdemeanor). Now, I didn't see any premeditated murder or attempted murder in the films. He was attacked period.
Seems a lot of people are also placing a lot of faith that they're going to be able to shoot a couple rounds and all the Antifa and BLM manbun warriors are going to scatter like cockroaches. Even if that has happened in some circumstances, if you think that they are not going to exchange their stupid signs and megaphones for more guns and ammo, I think you're being naive. Especially, if Trump wins, we're going to see an incremental increase in their presence and how well they are armed. You're assuming that we may step up our presence and activities but somehow the other side is just going to just keep doing the same thing.
Antifa like's their little S&W Shields and the like in the oversized front pockets. Saw a couple in the local grocery store the other day, and yes, at least one was carrying, probably both.
Does anyone know how to help Kyle Rittenhouse, because they have taken down his "Go Fund Me" accounts and refunded the money? Is he still being held with a $2 million dollar bond? I claim he was innocent based on the films. He only shot in self defense and turned himself in. The people who attacked him have not been charged. The only thing I see he did, was possibly his age (17). He was immediately accused and charged with murder, attempted murder, and having a gun under 18 (a misdemeanor). Now, I didn't see any premeditated murder or attempted murder in the films. He was attacked period.
His Lawyers have a site where they are taking donations.
Don't worry about his time in jail. On a per hour basis, he will be well compensated for it after the lawsuit.
Another point to be made is to stay away from places where the mobs are.
In today's world, the mobs may come to you.
I know. I hope nobody here has that happen either. It's already been said to use what works best for you. My full length 1911 is what fits that bill for me. It's easier to shoot accurately than any other center fire I have and it's functions flawlessly. Why limit yourself to just one handgun though?
Hurry up election so we can see for sure how much ammo we need!!!!
Nothing wrong with a 1911. Have several. Along with multiple Glocks. But if your waiting for the Election to “see how much ammo you need”, you’ve already screwed the pooch.
If you're going to put yourself in the danger we're discussing, why are you only carrying a pistol?
Rioting douche bags are sporting backpacks. My AR pistol fits in one just fine. Along with a few other things. Equip yourself as needed, have a plan, be mobile.
.. dress in manner similar to locals and carry Black Lives Matter shirt with you.
Something tells me you already have blm bumper stickers as extra insurance.. 😂
Originally Posted by Happy_Camper
.. what if you are caught off guard... This is why I believe that training in multiple scenareos is most helpful.
Camper have you trained to shoot through a windshield with proficiency? btw- massad Ayoob says to carry enough safety glasses and distribute to every occupant...does any ordinary civilian outside of Ayoob realistically have such a plan in place ?
My opinion is first avoid the trouble in the first place if you can. In the event that you may not be able to, try to be armed well enough to deal with whatever situation you may encounter. At the very least always be armed with something and be proficient with it. Lastly, remember throughout recorded history, no one has ever lost a battle by having too much ammo.
Never worried about weapon size, don't have any issues concealing any, therefore don't have to worry about magazines, max capacity mags, and plenty of them on your person, a reliable weapon that you can hit with goes without saying.
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I had never been a high capacity priority guy in my CCW choices. From 1980 (when I got my first CCW license) till about seven years ago, my choices had been revolvers and 1911s. Any departures from 1911s in autos were single stack 9mm. Then, about seven years ago, I started noticing an uptick in mob attacks on people, and switched to Glocks with double stack mags, only rarely switching to a single stack Glock for when not printing was a very high priority. That's been my situation since.
Your pistol is for fighting your way back to your truck to get your rifle.
That is as dumb today as it was when first stated.
mike r
Taken literally, I've never been a fan of that Clint Smith saying, but I think he was mainly trying to get across the superiority of the rifle/shotgun to any handgun, and pointing out that that would be what you'd have with you in a gun fight, ideally, if you could possibly manage it. I don't think he literally meant you should plan to fight your way to your car to get your rifle or shotgun. In a gun fight, you should plan on winning with what you have on you.
Regardless of legality, barring a full-on, for-real war, most of us here would do as Leanwolf says and get in our car and get away ASAP if involved in some gun battle with ANTIFA/BLM. Pulling out a rifle would only be if we were trapped afterwards. Most of the guys who have confronted the enemy head-on have been armed with long-guns already, so they wouldn't have to fight their way to their rifle.
Honestly with the new Glock 43x and 48 , this is just an academic question. Shield Arms S15 steel mags gives you flush fit 15 rounders plus they also have a +5 option that equals 20 rounds total . This is amazing if you’ve had your mitts on these guns. They are really concealable .
Name the last time we had a well financed and well organized Marxist Revolution in the country? Things have changed.
Yes indeed.
that doesn't change how many you have to shoot before the rest flee. The number is very low. 80 rifle armed, rifle-rated armor equipped Feds attacked Waco. when 16 got wounded and 4 got killed, the rest RAN.
When I first started carrying, I carried a Beretta 92F with 2 spare magazines for a total of 46 rounds of ammo with me. After a few years I acquired smaller handguns with lower capacities that were easier to carry for when I thought that the threat level might be lower. I have pretty much standardized on two carry pistols now. For low threat and extreme concealment like pocket carry I use a Beretta Nano with the 6 round magazine in the pistol and 2 spare 8 round magazines. The full size pistol that I use when I think the threat level is raised is a Beretta APX with the 17 round magazine in the gun and 2 spare 21 round magazines for a total of 60 rounds. If the possibility of having to face a violent mob is present, I carry the APX or better still make sure that I am not in that area.
.. what if you are caught off guard... This is why I believe that training in multiple scenareos is most helpful.
Camper have you trained to shoot through a windshield with proficiency? btw- massad Ayoob says to carry enough safety glasses and distribute to every occupant...does any ordinary civilian outside of Ayoob realistically have such a plan in place ?
It's only coincidental that someone else mentioned MA earlier. Didn't I refer to him in a thread a while back as a resource for case law abstracts concerning the subject at hand? He did also give his 2 cents on the mob scenario and some in car gear. I carry that gear for other flying projectiles like brush cutter debris. I can't think of situations where I would need to shoot a threat through a windshield when I'm sitting in a far more powerful weapon.( Perhaps if facing a crowd and one guy aims at me from the front.) If you want info on windshield shots, there are YouTube channels with those tests that are better than Ayoob's lecture.
To explain what I said, "what if you are caught off guard... This is why I believe that training in multiple scenareos is most helpful. "
I kept track of police reports for violent crimes in a nearby city. I did a study of demographics, circumstances, weapons, number of violent offenders, proximity, etc.... I trained my students accordingly, focussing on the majors.
Additionally, there were episodes of violent crimes that were never reported that I was aware of.
One Example:.
There was the local MMA/BrazilianJiuJitsu/Kick Boxing champ that was assaulted near my school. He was top of his game in our region. A black male pedestrian asked for directions at the MMA guys driver's side window. While distracted, there was another guy who entered the passengers side and stole the MMA champ's wallet. They got away uninjured and were never arrested. Mr. MMA's face looked worse than the end of any match. He had a medical bill. It's a good thing for him that they weren't armed. In addition, a rifle would have been difficult to access in that case. It's usually difficult to access any weapon other than the ones you are born with when caught off guard and pummeled.
Takeaway. I care less about what a man does in the ring or cage. I'm into saving lives. I set my students in the same exact scenario and one at a time, had them role play. They had to deal with the attack before training, Then after. They had to do umpteen reps until every one of them had many variations on the theme AND the least of them could walk away unharmed.
I'm certainly no expert, but my personal belief is that there's not much a 1911 in .45 ACP can't handle. For example, in your 20-30 bad guy scenario, suppose you drop 1 or 2 of those bad guys with well-placed shots to the brain pan or center mass? The bad guys will turn tail and run. I understand you cannot count on such an outcome, but it's been shown to be the case with these commie agitators time-and-time again. I also prefer the increased terminal performance of the larger caliber. My concern with a high capacity smaller caliber pistol is both the reduced performance and the increased difficulty of keeping track of round count.
My Uncle was a Ma Deuce operator at the Chosen Reservoir.He said as many bad guys as they killed ,they kept coming.You can never think the enemy will turn tail and run.
I'm certainly no expert, but my personal belief is that there's not much a 1911 in .45 ACP can't handle. For example, in your 20-30 bad guy scenario, suppose you drop 1 or 2 of those bad guys with well-placed shots to the brain pan or center mass? The bad guys will turn tail and run. I understand you cannot count on such an outcome, but it's been shown to be the case with these commie agitators time-and-time again. I also prefer the increased terminal performance of the larger caliber. My concern with a high capacity smaller caliber pistol is both the reduced performance and the increased difficulty of keeping track of round count.
My Uncle was a Ma Deuce operator at the Chosen Reservoir.He said as many bad guys as they killed ,they kept coming.You can never think the enemy will turn tail and run.
These punks dont have officers shooing them in the back for failure to attack. They run. Kyle only had to shoot 3 and dozens ran.
when you shoot 8 of them in 2 seconds. one shot each, 80 others will run, guaranteed. Reload and go home, using cover.
That would make you the baddest gunfighter on the CF. Did you train w/ the happy camper?
mike r
when the draw time is not included, 2 seconds is not that fast. Miculek does it in a 1 second flat.
Basic combat doctrine is two is to always double tap. So right off the bat you’ve just cut your number of bad guys to engage in half
the guy who came up with that "doctrine" was full of it, and in any case, shooting 4 of them, twice as fast, one each, is a lot more impressive.
When Jeff came out with his 600 page Gunsite gossip. he invited criticism. So I sent him 170 double spaced pages of handwritten opposition to what he'd writter, using nothing but his own words, from years past. He replied " You always were a bit doctrinal". :-)
Again, people seem to think these douche bags are just going to all flee as soon as they hear a couple gun shots and then you going to be like Will Smith, walking down the empty streets in "I Am Legend" as the only human left on Earth. This could very well be just the beginning stages of what's to come and not indicative of the longer term threat. I don't think it's wise to assume they will not come in larger numbers, or more well armed, or armed with illegal mods, or take cover and continue to fight from there instead of just leaving you alone in your badness.
And people are quick to conclude that if you are in danger, you've made a mistake being there. If that was universally true, there would be no need to carry at all because we're all prescient. If things get bad, the threat may come to you even if you didn't ask for trouble. Instead of doing scheduled protests, what if we see them start engaging in flash mob tactics? We've already seen that on a limited scale before all this crap start for other "causes". What if they apply flash mobs to riots? What if you're in the mall or grocery store and then you walk out and in the last 20 minutes 100 armed losers show up in the parking lot?
I hope I am wrong about the chaos to come but considering the money behind these events and people, I worry about significant escalation of frequency, scope and tactics.
when you shoot 8 of them in 2 seconds. one shot each, 80 others will run, guaranteed. Reload and go home, using cover.
That would make you the baddest gunfighter on the CF. Did you train w/ the happy camper?
mike r
when the draw time is not included, 2 seconds is not that fast. Miculek does it in a 1 second flat.
Basic combat doctrine is two is to always double tap. So right off the bat you’ve just cut your number of bad guys to engage in half
the guy who came up with that "doctrine" was full of it, and in any case, shooting 4 of them, twice as fast, one each, is a lot more impressive.
When Jeff came out with his 600 page Gunsite gossip. he invited criticism. So I sent him 170 double spaced pages of handwritten opposition to what he'd writter, using nothing but his own words, from years past. He replied " You always were a bit doctrinal". :-)
Are you that same sperm filled douchebag that says he invented IPSC a while back on here?
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I was seriously considering having a shoulder holster made. I like the vertical Jackass rig like I had for a 1911. I figure as winter approaches if I'm wearing a jacket I can cover most anything within reason. I tend to stay away from trouble spots, but I do skirt the edges sometimes.
I might be on one of those edges when I run into a former "client". Emboldened by the goings on in the country and possibly having his crew with him I can see the potential for disaster.
The rig would be my Springfield XD MOD2 5" tactical and 3-13 round magazines loaded with Federal HST 45 acp 230 grain. It has to be vertical under the jacket because it's a bit of a monster. Still, awareness says stay the hell away from those places.
As it stands I do not go to my local Walmart which is half way between here and the projects, I don't even consider going.
It makes sense to me that a guy who is proficient and confident with his chosen SD firearm is going to require less shooting to get clear of a dangerous crowd than someone who bumbles a draw and looks more scared and unprepared and less like a deadly threat. I know it doesn't fit into the questions presented here, but it seems to me that "crowd control" in the sense of self-defense is going to have a lot to do with personal presence and confidence in the face of the mob. I've been in some situations where one confident guy was able to hold off well beyond his numbers simply though confidence.
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I was seriously considering having a shoulder holster made. I like the vertical Jackass rig like I had for a 1911. I figure as winter approaches if I'm wearing a jacket I can cover most anything within reason. I tend to stay away from trouble spots, but I do skirt the edges sometimes.
I might be on one of those edges when I run into a former "client". Emboldened by the goings on in the country and possibly having his crew with him I can see the potential for disaster.
The rig would be my Springfield XD MOD2 5" tactical and 3-13 round magazines loaded with Federal HST 45 acp 230 grain. It has to be vertical under the jacket because it's a bit of a monster. Still, awareness says stay the hell away from those places.
As it stands I do not go to my local Walmart which is half way between here and the projects, I don't even consider going.
Personally I like a larger capacity gun. I wear 2x gloves because 3x are hard to find. I like a frame that allows me to wrap my pinky around it and have never wished that I had less bullets. When you see footage of real life shooting it’s shocking how many shooters even those with a fair amount of practice miss “can’t miss shots.” Take buck fever and amplify it by a hundred with someone else’s gun going of at bayonet range pointed near your face while he try’s to blow your brains out. Maybe just blew your spouses brains out. In real life horrible situations that you hate to imagine I’m not going to assume that I’m going to be be mowing down bad guys without a miss.
I also want to be able to put down suppressive fire in the unlikely but real event that I need it. In some of the mob attacks we’ve seen guys with AR’s and AK’s and at minimum double stack magazine Glock’s and such I don’t recall seeing any revolvers or single stack pistols. So why start at an ammo disadvantage if I don’t have to. The other thin I haven’t seen mentioned is If I have 15-20 rounds its going to allow me to force him to duck for cover even if I’m unable to get him square in my sight right away as I run or move to cover also. If you have a guy blasting at you. Your going to want to return fire while maneuvering in order to limit his tactical advantage so that he isn’t just standing there teeing off on you. If you’re returning fire on the move while he’s also on the move and your adrenaline is surging it’s going to be really easy to burn through 6-8 shots in my opinion.
when you shoot 8 of them in 2 seconds. one shot each, 80 others will run, guaranteed. Reload and go home, using cover.
That would make you the baddest gunfighter on the CF. Did you train w/ the happy camper?
mike r
when the draw time is not included, 2 seconds is not that fast. Miculek does it in a 1 second flat.
Basic combat doctrine is two is to always double tap. So right off the bat you’ve just cut your number of bad guys to engage in half
the guy who came up with that "doctrine" was full of it, and in any case, shooting 4 of them, twice as fast, one each, is a lot more impressive.
When Jeff came out with his 600 page Gunsite gossip. he invited criticism. So I sent him 170 double spaced pages of handwritten opposition to what he'd writter, using nothing but his own words, from years past. He replied " You always were a bit doctrinal". :-)
"170 double spaced pages", you should be more concerned with your typing addiction than combat doctrine.
He’s just a troll. I’m unaware of any police, military, or combat pistol shooting school that teaches anything but to double tap the target in all but the most rare circumstances. In case presented with him in the wide open surrounded by 8 guys shooting at him that might be one but he’d be dead anyway and it’s completely unrealistic. As unrealistic as 8 armed attackers are in real life and I order to survive it he’d have to find cover and from there engage targets based on opportunity and threat level. Near to far, possibly the weapon they were armed with and a few other factors. Each target would be treated as an individual threat and double tapped if possible with rare exception before transitioning to the next threat. If ever there would be a situation to have as many rounds at your disposal as possible to factor in misses, follow up shots, and suppressive fire to avoid being over run that would be it. He’s a troll with no practical combat pistol training to speak of.
Always chuckled at the mention of a "New York reload". Then, during 9/11, saw a NYPD detective get out of his vehicle with a double holster. Two revolvers, one over top the other...
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I was seriously considering having a shoulder holster made. I like the vertical Jackass rig like I had for a 1911. I figure as winter approaches if I'm wearing a jacket I can cover most anything within reason. I tend to stay away from trouble spots, but I do skirt the edges sometimes.
I might be on one of those edges when I run into a former "client". Emboldened by the goings on in the country and possibly having his crew with him I can see the potential for disaster.
The rig would be my Springfield XD MOD2 5" tactical and 3-13 round magazines loaded with Federal HST 45 acp 230 grain. It has to be vertical under the jacket because it's a bit of a monster. Still, awareness says stay the hell away from those places.
As it stands I do not go to my local Walmart which is half way between here and the projects, I don't even consider going.
You’d get bytch slapped .
bring your 30 guys and TRY it. i"ll kill 8 of you in 2 seconds and you'll chit yourselves running clean out of town.
He’s just a troll. I’m unaware of any police, military, or combat pistol shooting school that teaches anything but to double tap the target in all but the most rare circumstances. In case presented with him in the wide open surrounded by 8 guys shooting at him that might be one but he’d be dead anyway and it’s completely unrealistic. As unrealistic as 8 armed attackers are in real life and I order to survive it he’d have to find cover and from there engage targets based on opportunity and threat level. Near to far, possibly the weapon they were armed with and a few other factors. Each target would be treated as an individual threat and double tapped if possible with rare exception before transitioning to the next threat. If ever there would be a situation to have as many rounds at your disposal as possible to factor in misses, follow up shots, and suppressive fire to avoid being over run that would be it. He’s a troll with no practical combat pistol training to speak of.
so what? everyone 'thinks' the FBI is such hot [bleep], but tey were still teaching one handed point shooting at 25m, in the 80s. :-) they spent 8 MILLION $ in today's money, discovering that pistols dont pierce cars waf. I could have told them that much in 1969. The fact, that you' and others would be so stupid as to waste half of your ammo, in the face of 20 or more attackers, says all I need to know. They aint got guns. they are felons. like the 3 that Kyle shot. They are not hanging around in the face of certain death. The spare mag can be drawn with the gun and be in the piece and firing in 1.5 seconds. there's no reason to fire beyond 10 ft , no reason to miss, even once.
He’s just a troll. I’m unaware of any police, military, or combat pistol shooting school that teaches anything but to double tap the target in all but the most rare circumstances. In case presented with him in the wide open surrounded by 8 guys shooting at him that might be one but he’d be dead anyway and it’s completely unrealistic. As unrealistic as 8 armed attackers are in real life and I order to survive it he’d have to find cover and from there engage targets based on opportunity and threat level. Near to far, possibly the weapon they were armed with and a few other factors. Each target would be treated as an individual threat and double tapped if possible with rare exception before transitioning to the next threat. If ever there would be a situation to have as many rounds at your disposal as possible to factor in misses, follow up shots, and suppressive fire to avoid being over run that would be it. He’s a troll with no practical combat pistol training to speak of.
so what? everyone 'thinks' the FBI is such hot [bleep], but tey were still teaching one handed point shooting at 25m, in the 80s. :-) they spent 8 MILLION $ in today's money, discovering that pistols dont pierce cars waf. I could have told them that much in 1969. The fact, that you' and others would be so stupid as to waste half of your ammo, in the face of 20 or more attackers, says all I need to know. They aint got guns. they are felons. like the 3 that Kyle shot. They are not hanging around in the face of certain death. The spare mag can be drawn with the gun and be in the piece and firing in 1.5 seconds. there's no reason to fire beyond 10 ft , no reason to miss, even once.
sheit Ask Mas who could draw and hit twice as fast as he could, back in 1979 in Litchfield Ill? Ask Bill wilson who's got the fastest ccw draw he's ever seen. I've drawn on men half a dozen times, and only had to fire once It was dark and the 4 guys didn't believe I had a gun. When 8.5 grs of Unique and a 185 gr Hornady jhp lit up the entire COUNTY fired over their heads, they got back into their car a LOT faster than they'd jumped out! :-) The other times, my gun appeared so fast that they couldn't effing believe it. I had a fat punk charge me from about 12 ft away with a big Crescent wrench., I was cocked and locked, open wear, but had no round chambered. I got the gun level, wracked the slide, got a weaver on his face and he was STILL far enough away to stop when I said "DROP It"". He did, and then fled. One more step and he was going to be eating a .45 swc.
sheit Ask Mas who could draw and hit twice as fast as he could, back in 1979 in Litchfield Ill? Ask Bill wilson who's got the fastest ccw draw he's ever seen. I've drawn on men half a dozen times, and only had to fire once It was dark and the 4 guys didn't believe I had a gun. When 8.5 grs of Unique and a 185 gr Hornady jhp lit up the entire COUNTY fired over their heads, they got back into their car a LOT faster than they'd jumped out! :-) The other times, my gun appeared so fast that they couldn't effing believe it. I had a fat punk charge me from about 12 ft away with a big Crescent wrench., I was cocked and locked, open wear, but had no round chambered. I got the gun level, wracked the slide, got a weaver on his face and he was STILL far enough away to stop when I said "DROP It"". He did, and then fled. One more step and he was going to be eating a .45 swc.
Age old argument of what's better, size of the gun for concealment or magazine capacity. But the question now is, have your priorities changed given the current threats? Personally, 5 years ago, I would have opted for a smaller capacity gun that was easy to conceal against a threat of 1-4 criminals. Considering the mob threat on the horizon, my priorities have definitely shifted towards magazine capacity. The idea of having 20-30 bad guys running around me and having a nice, small, comfortable gun with a 7 round mag doesn't sound fun. My carry now is an M&P commander size with 4.25" barrel and a 17+1 capacity. It's bulkier and not as light but I like having those 17 rounds in the gun along with another 34 rounds in a 2 mag belt carrier. What are you guys carrying? Has it changed with Operation Mayhem in effect? Full disclosure, I have not carried nearly as long as many people here. Just speaking my mind and looking for any advice in the new environment. Thanks in advance.
I was seriously considering having a shoulder holster made. I like the vertical Jackass rig like I had for a 1911. I figure as winter approaches if I'm wearing a jacket I can cover most anything within reason. I tend to stay away from trouble spots, but I do skirt the edges sometimes.
I might be on one of those edges when I run into a former "client". Emboldened by the goings on in the country and possibly having his crew with him I can see the potential for disaster.
The rig would be my Springfield XD MOD2 5" tactical and 3-13 round magazines loaded with Federal HST 45 acp 230 grain. It has to be vertical under the jacket because it's a bit of a monster. Still, awareness says stay the hell away from those places.
As it stands I do not go to my local Walmart which is half way between here and the projects, I don't even consider going.
You’d get bytch slapped .
Gee, how brave people are at saying things from behind the safety of that screen.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second. If you've got a heavy coat, just have the pistol in a holster made for that coat pocket, and keep your hands in your pockets. The draw will be twice as fast as from any shoulder, rig, even if the coat is NOT fastened shut.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
Originally Posted by Sprint11
Originally Posted by lonee
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
shows how little you know. I jumped a fed bond in 1986, and then escaped in 1990. So I've been on the run twice.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
Originally Posted by Sprint11
Originally Posted by lonee
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
shows how little you know. I jumped a fed bond in 1986, and then escaped in 1990. So I've been on the run twice.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
Originally Posted by Sprint11
Originally Posted by lonee
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
shows how little you know. I jumped a fed bond in 1986, and then escaped in 1990. So I've been on the run twice.
For a car/ truck I like a BFG! Back in the 90s I was in the jewelry biz in Miami. Noticed that these heist crewsall carried huge recovers and autos. They didn't want to shoot anyone they wanted to make the store employee too scared to move. I don't want to shoot anyone. Maybe, just maybe...the sight of that Glock 45 will cause the person a moment of clarity and I can get away without ringing ears.
For me a Glock 19 is hard to beat, 15 rounds at the ready to quell the situation, and a spare 30 round magazine for O sheit we have problems. But that's only when traveling to the city or going out to dinner gear. Every day carry is a Glock 43X with a CCI shot shell in the chamber. How anyone can work - farm carrying anything larger than a 43X is beyond me. A 380 LCP or Airweight were the perfect size for every day till thus blm - antifa BS started.
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
Originally Posted by Sprint11
Originally Posted by lonee
I've never said anything online that I wouldn't say to anyone's face. Anyone moves on me, they're dead. I"ve been on the run before and kind of liked it. I wont hesitate the slightest fraction of a second.
No you haven't, and yes you would.
shows how little you know. I jumped a fed bond in 1986, and then escaped in 1990. So I've been on the run twice.
Ayoob says it never happened.
if he did, hes lying, cause I remember reading it in his columm. Jeff Cooper had had a smith round off the sharp corners of a Micro adjustable sight and sink the entire sight lower in the slide, enabling the front sight to be lower and thus practicible in a holster gun. as vs a target gun (only) He termed them "melted" Micros. Ayoob thought that thes smith had use a welding torch to melt away the sharp corners, when it had actually been done on a sanding wheel.
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