Here's a wide range of topics I'm throwing out for the crowd.
I read this story about his 38 year old mom that went off hiking on her own during an excursion in Zion Natl. Park and went missing. They found her two weeks later. Her daughter claims she was an "experienced" hiker. That brought several thoughts to mind.
WTF does "experienced" hiker mean in the Pajama Boi/HGTV age? Does it mean they go and walk on well marked flat trails frequented by 100s of others once a month? For the Millennial crowd, that is probably accurate. That's why I call them the HGTV generation. They want to live in condos and cluster homes in town with almost zero yard, walk to celebrity restaurants during the week, and then escape to "nature" on the weekends or vacation.
Brings up the next thought, where do these urbanites learn their outdoor skills? Youtube? At the REI store demo? I learned basic outdoor and survival skills in the Boy Scouts. How to read a compass, tie knots, blaze a trail, make emergency shelter, and how to make fire. I learned orienteering, and how to read a typo map. How to find Polaris or Cassiopia in the northern sky at night. Scouting did teach survival skills. Scouting is dead today.
Also brings up the point that some people don't belong off a paved road. I swear this is a true story. Was in Jackson, WY a few years ago staying at a small hotel. We were on our way out when one such couple that fit the above HGTV description passed by the front desk. Dude working asks where they were going today and they said Grand Teton Park.
He asks "Do you have bear spray?" They answered in the negative
"Here, take one of ours. Do you know how to use it?"
They answered in the affirmative and started toward the door, but paused and asked:
"Do you spray it all over your clothes or just on your bare skin?"
With a straight face, the dude answers "Ma'am, if you attempt either, please step outside first."
Today with the reliance on GPS, nobody can read a map and they don't have a good sense of where they are when they start. Forget a compass. They will never look at the direction of the sun when they start. If their cell phone goes dead or loses signal, they have no clue.
Just a bunch of random thoughts. I'm sure you guys see plenty of this.
Story:
'Overjoyed': Missing Zion National Park hiker Holly Courtier found alive after 12 days
Steve Kiggins, USA TODAY
Sun, October 18, 2020, 6:05 PM EDT
Watch: Mother rescued in Zion National Park after missing for nearly 2 weeks
Scroll back up to restore default view.
A California woman who was missing for nearly two weeks at Zion National Park in Utah was found safely on Sunday and reunited with her family.
Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, hadn’t been seen since riding a private shuttle into the park’s Grotto area on Oct. 6. Her disappearance prompted multiple search and rescue efforts that were complicated by the fact that Courtier didn’t have a cell phone and hadn’t left a trip itinerary.
Park rangers located Courtier after receiving a “credible tip from a park visitor,” the National Park Service said in a news release, adding that Courtier has since left the park with her family.
“We are overjoyed that she was found safely today,” Courtier’s family said in a statement released by the park service. “We would like to thank the rangers and search teams who relentlessly looked for her day and night and never gave up hope. We are also so grateful to the countless volunteers who were generous with their time, resources and support. This wouldn’t have been possible without the network of people who came together.”
More than the 'Mighty Five'? Utah Rep. Chris Stewart revives bill to create state's sixth national park.
The search for Courtier brought together federal, state and local resources, including the Washington County Sheriff’s Office, the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and the Grand Canyon National Emergency Service Team, plus park staff and volunteers.
The Park Service statement did not include any information about Courtier’s health or her whereabouts for the past 12 days.
Courtier was reported missing by her family on Oct. 8, two days after failed to return to the shuttle after heading out on the Kayenta Trail toward the Emerald Pools. Her vehicle was discovered in the nearby town of Springdale, at the park’s southwest entrance, early in the search, Zion officials had said.
'The cougar guy': Utah hiker encounters a cougar who followed him for nearly six minutes
Courtier's daughter, Kailey Chambers, told CBS Los Angeles last week that her mom had been traveling the country in a converted van after losing her job due to the coronavirus pandemic. She described her as an "experienced hiker” who was familiar with Zion National Park.
“I know she would not give up on me, so I refuse to give up on her,” Chambers told the TV station. “I don’t care if I’m the only person on the trail looking for her, I’m not going to stop until I find her.”
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
A lot of people today can't read maps as they solely rely on GPS off their phones for navigation while driving. I wonder how many accidents are caused by someone following GPS navigation on their phones and have to quickly change lanes or such to get off at an exit. I especially hate driving in or through big cities nowadays. I prefer a good topo map and compass. Many areas of the country still do not have good cell phone coverage and the batteries can go dead unless you have a way to recharge.
It has always been and ever will be thus. The only recent enhancement has been that the issue becomes so much more visible in the digital age due social media overexposure. Urban and suburban dwellers are a different breed from those raised in fresh air, forests and fields. We could commend them for their efforts to bond with us, but it's more fun to enjoy a good laugh at their expense. It's the same laugh that they might have at our expense were the situation reversed. I know how stupid I feel trying to figure out how to get around on the "T" in Boston or how to translate a Starbucks coffee list into plain English, but I give it my best! Eff 'em; let 'em laugh.
Experienced hiker today means they have a dirt hiking path in their housing development that the person walks frequently. They may hike a well marked hiking trail a few times.
My son is an Eagle Scout and experienced outdoorsman due to growing up in our household. The stories he tells me about kids his age and their total lack of anything outdoor related leaves me shaking my head. Stories similar to Hatari’s bear spray story. He is in the Air Force and none of the people in his SERE class had any previous outdoor skills. He was surprised how little most of them knew about even basic things. The number of people in the coming generations who have any outdoor/survival skills at all is very, very small from what I have seen.
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
I know plenty of women from western states that could out hike, hunt, shoot and pack your tired old ass and most eastern tenderfeet any day and in any weather condition. Painting with a broad brush when you hunt high fence is really not smart.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
Zion, is not the woods, it's sand rock, red clay and sand and scrub cedar trees, lots of hiking trails that are very well marked, from most high points you can see Colorado river or Hi-Way or the lights of Moab, Utah, or the park ranger station, you would have to be a complete dumb ass to get lost there,
We hunted Big Horn Sheep there before Zion and Canyon Lands became National Parks. Rio7
when I was in Scouting a few years back we did teach reading a compass, reading a map, using the sun during the day, moss on the trees and the stars at night
My son and I were talking last week, he became an eagle in 2016 and we were saying how as an adult he'll probably be the last generation of Eagle Scouts. 30 years from now few people will have an appreciation for what it is. Its a shame, but while I still strongly believe in Scouting, it doesn't have a place in the world today.
Device I play around with a lot that throws many folks for a loop! But after I explain to them what it is they pick up on it. Enjoy letting them use it! Fun to clue them in on how things were done!
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/9fxgjj6j/2-ADDC8-C8-09-E2-422-F-8711-020-D7-E803055.jpg)
In reality all it is is a big compass.
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
That's like saying every Catholic priest is gay, whhich is certainly not the case.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
I’m pretty good at finding my way out, and have hit a point where I do nearly paranoid things to prevent it, but the fact is, I could get lost in an outhouse.
Put me in a thicket on flat ground and call me last years Easter Egg.
Sooo, I keep a map, compass, gps, phone, write down where I’ll be so my wife can tell my brother in law where to find me (he’s never had to, btw).
Before going off any trail, and even on a trail if there are turns, I’ll plot waypoints, check compass, check map, check ridges, check the sun, check my 6 regularly, etc.
I don’t think the girl in Utah was lost, but I don’t think she wanted to be found. Apparently, however, she did want to live.
The senior General MacArthur noticed a disturbing lack of rifle skill during the Spanish American War and so founded the School of Musketry in Fort Ord back in 1904. It was later moved to Fort Benning Georgia in 1917(?). The NRA started even earlier trying to address the lack of shooting skills at the closing of the American Frontier.
The Scouts were more ambitious. But because they not only taught fieldcraft but morals and a way of life, they were targeted by those opposed to such way of life. This is the curse of having standards. Those who don't want to be held to even a moderate standard of behavior do their best to destroy those pesky inconvenient morals. The Scouts were ridiculed as "goody two-shoes" and destroyed by homosexuals and atheists. After all, it is much cooler to do drugs than to be strong and straight and a credit to your community.
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
Maybe where you live, but that’s not the case here. The kids in scouting reflect the exact traits that the adults who are leading that troop. It differs from troop to troop. I learned a tons of outdoor and life skills through scouting starting about 30 years ago. I’m currently teaching my son and his friends some of those same skills. One of those skills is to lead by example and the fact that you don’t have to remain silent when someone runs off at the mouth about you, your family, or what makes you who you are.
My son gets livid when he sees the bs TV ambulance chaser ads for molested scouts. If someone told him that he and his friends were “q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie “girls”” I’d guess that person would have more than he’d want on his hands. But if you said that in front of me, calling into question my kid and his beliefs, I’d relish the opportunity to show those same kids what a real ass whipping looks like.
I'm not comfortable being out on a boat at night in a lake I am not familiar with, especially if the boat ramp isn't lit up. A GPS with waypoints really helps though. I only mention that because I was in that situation last night. It was still light enough we could find the boat ramp but by the time we got the boat loaded and on the road it was pitch black with no moon.
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
I know plenty of women from western states that could out hike, hunt, shoot and pack your tired old ass and most eastern tenderfeet any day and in any weather condition. Painting with a broad brush when you hunt high fence is really not smart.
You must be psychic...or a woman to know SO much about me...Not to mention you missed the point entirely about this specific female: "“She absolutely loves hiking and it’s one of her favorite things to do and when she needs clarity and to spend some time with herself, nature is her happy place,” Chambers said. .I guess your "Happy Place" is the Brokeback Montain Sauna and gerbel ranch.
not surprising given your issues with simple mechanical tasks...High fence?
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
Maybe where you live, but that’s not the case here. The kids in scouting reflect the exact traits that the adults who are leading that troop. It differs from troop to troop. I learned a tons of outdoor and life skills through scouting starting about 30 years ago. I’m currently teaching my son and his friends some of those same skills. One of those skills is to lead by example and the fact that you don’t have to remain silent when someone runs off at the mouth about you, your family, or what makes you who you are.
My son gets livid when he sees the bs TV ambulance chaser ads for molested scouts. If someone told him that he and his friends were “q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie “girls”” I’d guess that person would have more than he’d want on his hands. But if you said that in front of me, calling into question my kid and his beliefs, I’d relish the opportunity to show those same kids what a real ass whipping looks like.
This! Last troop I was involved with here when both the sons were scouting (BTW, both Eagles), we were far from being as described above! I miss the troop rifle sight in before deer season and the troop clays shoot before dove season. Only time many of these boys got to be around firearms. And it brought their dads out too!
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
Yup, something does not seem right here.
In the Klamath Natl Forest this summer and hunting season, I have never seen so many obviously urban people out and about. Maybe a natural result of job losses, working remotely and phony covid lockdown. I mean clueless urban city dweller types. Low clearance vehicles shedding exhaust parts and bits of plastic and chrome, blatant use of prohibited campfires, trash, toilet paper and worse right on the roadside, garbage, broken discarded chinese plastic camp gear, quite a statement about the rugged American outdoorsman. One nice couple walked up to where I was cutting wood one morning to ask about access to some little lakes nearby, their phones wouldn't work up there. I drew them a sketch map, on a paper plate with north marked with a black arrow, and when the guy handled the "map" each time he held it at least 90 deg off of north. I gently corrected him, twice, and gave up. Don't know if they found the lakes, but I guess they found the city they were from eventually. Safe to assume they didn't have much to teach their kids.
Lol.. the women survived 12 days in the wilderness by herself and was found safely.... and is being questioned by a trained boy scout bwhahahahahahahahahahHhHahahahagagahaha
This will for sure be the funniest thing I read all day
Bwhahahahahagahaha
the problem is "experienced hiker" can mean anything, depends on the point of reference. Someone who "hikes" in a city park or nicely groomed trails, then travels to Yellowstone, or Tetons, or anything and sees trails marked for "experienced" hikers and it means something else.
Story:
'Overjoyed': Missing Zion National Park hiker Holly Courtier found alive after 12 days
Steve Kiggins, USA TODAY
Sun, October 18, 2020, 6:05 PM EDT
Watch: Mother rescued in Zion National Park after missing for nearly 2 weeks
Scroll back up to restore default view.
A California woman who was missing for nearly two weeks at Zion National Park in Utah was found safely on Sunday and reunited with her family.
Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, hadn’t been seen since riding a private shuttle into the park’s Grotto area on Oct. 6. Her disappearance prompted multiple search and rescue efforts that were complicated by the fact that Courtier didn’t have a cell phone and hadn’t left a trip itinerary.
Park rangers located Courtier after receiving a “credible tip from a park visitor,” the National Park Service said in a news release, adding that Courtier has since left the park with her family.
“We are overjoyed that she was found safely today,” Courtier’s family said in a statement released by the park service. “We would like to thank the rangers and search teams who relentlessly looked for her day and night and never gave up hope. We are also so grateful to the countless volunteers who were generous with their time, resources and support. This wouldn’t have been possible without the network of people who came together.”
More than the 'Mighty Five'? Utah Rep. Chris Stewart revives bill to create state's sixth national park.
The search for Courtier brought together federal, state and local resources, including the Washington County Sheriff’s Office, the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and the Grand Canyon National Emergency Service Team, plus park staff and volunteers.
The Park Service statement did not include any information about Courtier’s health or her whereabouts for the past 12 days.
Courtier was reported missing by her family on Oct. 8, two days after failed to return to the shuttle after heading out on the Kayenta Trail toward the Emerald Pools. Her vehicle was discovered in the nearby town of Springdale, at the park’s southwest entrance, early in the search, Zion officials had said.
'The cougar guy': Utah hiker encounters a cougar who followed him for nearly six minutes
Courtier's daughter, Kailey Chambers, told CBS Los Angeles last week that her mom had been traveling the country in a converted van after losing her job due to the coronavirus pandemic. She described her as an "experienced hiker” who was familiar with Zion National Park.
“I know she would not give up on me, so I refuse to give up on her,” Chambers told the TV station. “I don’t care if I’m the only person on the trail looking for her, I’m not going to stop until I find her.”
Look at the eyes, it will tell you all you need to know about this gal.
Crazy eyes......they ain't for begginers.
Today with the reliance on GPS, nobody can read a map and they don't have a good sense of where they are when they start. Forget a compass. They will never look at the direction of the sun when they start. If their cell phone goes dead or loses signal, they have no clue.
So true! No situational awareness either. If you asked them if they have noticed or paid attention to any landmarks along the trail, small or large, they are lost. Did they even turn around ever and look back at where they came with some vague notion of what it will look like going the other way. Nope!
I think there is a big difference in nomenclature.
Contemporarily the term “hiking” just means “walking on something other than a sidewalk”. A person can have “extensive hiking experience” if they regularly visit green spaces on a regular basis and put on miles walking sub-urban trails contained therein.
The skills we think of as orienteering just aren’t recognized as useful anymore due to the perception that trails will be marked with frequent reminders as to where a person is and the direction hey need to be headed in the form of signage. This is what gets people like the lady referenced in the OP into trouble.
They take that arrangement for granted and you can see when you visit Nat’l Parks that the nanny state has caught on; there are signs and railings EVERYWHERE.
Zion, is not the woods, it's sand rock, red clay and sand and scrub cedar trees, lots of hiking trails that are very well marked, from most high points you can see Colorado river or Hi-Way or the lights of Moab, Utah, or the park ranger station, you would have to be a complete dumb ass to get lost there,
We hunted Big Horn Sheep there before Zion and Canyon Lands became National Parks. Rio7
I have hiked Zion and the surrounding areas and it is unbelievable someone could get lost for more than an hour in there.
Excellent post, EF. Back in the early 2000s, I was an investor in a hunting business up in Maine called Bowlin Camps. A bunch of us retired and active duty (I was still active then) USN/USMC guys owned it. Maine state government told us in order to "guide" we all had to take their State run course for "Maine Guides". Lots of survival stuff ( old stuff to a lot of us that had gone through the various survival schools), but they really delved into the land navigation/map reading curriculum and no GPS stuff. Anyway, nowadays I think we've all been spoiled with GPS, cell phones, etc. , but it's good to remember:
True
Virgins
Make
Dull
Companions.,,,
ADD Whiskey
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
I know plenty of women from western states that could out hike, hunt, shoot and pack your tired old ass and most eastern tenderfeet any day and in any weather condition. Painting with a broad brush when you hunt high fence is really not smart.
You must be psychic...or a woman to know SO much about me...Not to mention you missed the point entirely about this specific female: "“She absolutely loves hiking and it’s one of her favorite things to do and when she needs clarity and to spend some time with herself, nature is her happy place,” Chambers said. .I guess your "Happy Place" is the Brokeback Montain Sauna and gerbel ranch.
not surprising given your issues with simple mechanical tasks...High fence?
caladum just bought a pair of convertible hiking pants at Cabelas in Billings and he is now a certified outdoor expert
The woman went to Zion for a spiritual awaking. Her daughter freaked out.
She obviously went in with gear and had a 12 day camping trip. Doesn’t make for exciting news tho.
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
I wish there was a way to put someone on Double Secret Ignore.
Today with the reliance on GPS, nobody can read a map and they don't have a good sense of where they are when they start. Forget a compass. They will never look at the direction of the sun when they start. If their cell phone goes dead or loses signal, they have no clue.
So true! No situational awareness either. If you asked them if they have noticed or paid attention to any landmarks along the trail, small or large, they are lost. Did they even turn around ever and look back at where they came with some vague notion of what it will look like going the other way. Nope!
Right you are, Dad!
Hat
The woman went to Zion for a spiritual awaking. Her daughter freaked out.
She obviously went in with gear and had a 12 day camping trip. Doesn’t make for exciting news tho.
"Spiritual awakening?" Did she pack her peyote?
Concept of the HGTV generation remains.
Crazy lady living in a van decides not to contact her family for two weeks and they declare her lost.
Not one detail in the story how she survived , ate drank, survived hypothermia.( it gets down to the 20's at night now) and managed to get lost in a busy open park.Not even taken to a hospital which is the standard procedure for evaluation. No pics or interviews when she was "found" by a toast tip.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
Yup, something does not seem right here.
Spiritual awakening?
Sounds like some '60s hippie thing.
"Wow, MAN. I was like, um burned out, This capitalism stuff just ain't my bag so I decided I needed to get back to nature and get my head together, you know, man, find myself."
the problem is "experienced hiker" can mean anything, depends on the point of reference. Someone who "hikes" in a city park or nicely groomed trails, then travels to Yellowstone, or Tetons, or anything and sees trails marked for "experienced" hikers and it means something else.
I would say many who claim to be experienced hikers are experienced at following a dirt groove or where the vegetation has been worn through.
Some may have volunteered for trail improvement days.
Experienced hiker does not equal outdoorsman.
Scouting teaches too much self reliance for the thinking of those who would see it killed.
Never been to Zion...what's the water situation in this year of the big drought of 2020?
I consider myself to be pretty self sufficient and would likely be classed as an "experienced hiker". Nonetheless, I have spent a couple of nights in pretty inhospitable situations and have returned home from an afternoon hunt at 2 AM or later more than once. I have also ended up in places somewhat removed from my intended destination when I've gotten distracted by a set of tracks or succumbed to the urge to see what was around the corner. So I guess it can happen but there has to be more to this story and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mental health issue involved.
By the way, one can call out this particular woman in this instance but Jorge, as usual, let's his butt do the talking when he hints that no woman should be out by herself. GD
Crazy lady living in a van decides not to contact her family for two weeks and they declare her lost.
Not one detail in the story how she survived , ate drank, survived hypothermia.( it gets down to the 20's at night now) and managed to get lost in a busy open park.Not even taken to a hospital which is the standard procedure for evaluation. No pics or interviews when she was "found" by a toast tip.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
Yup, something does not seem right here.
Yep. She didn't spend 12 days in the outdoors, that's for sure. She probably went on a bender with some friends.
Maybe she wanted to get "lost"! Sounds to me like it.
she probably spent two weeks getting dick.
When I lived in New Hampshire people were always getting lost in the White Mountains NF, some of whom died from exposure, often on the Presidential Mountain Range. I think that it is even worse today because people have come to be dependant on phone apps and have little or no spatial or situational awareness. My kids are just as bad and when I talk to them about the need to be spatially and situationally aware, they scoff and think that my preference for paper maps to find my way and that I am always looking around, rather than looking at a phone screen is archaic behavior.
she probably spent two weeks getting dick.
I promise Rog! I’ve been in Texas past 2-3 weeks!
😉
Agreed as above. There is a whole lot about this incident that doesn’t jive. I do not think it happened as told.
Osky
The woman went to Zion for a spiritual awaking. Her daughter freaked out.
She obviously went in with gear and had a 12 day camping trip. Doesn’t make for exciting news tho.
"Spiritual awakening?" Did she pack her peyote?
Concept of the HGTV generation remains.
Yep. If that's what really happened, it makes perfect sense. That's one of the ways us shamanic types get our groove on-- some with or some without some kind of enhancer like peyote.
Frankly, I was never going to go the chemical route. I always wanted a clear head for dealing with what I was likely to find out there. I also generally went with a ground crew-- someone to watch over me while I was getting my vision. Normally the ground crew also helped in doing the spiritual work. I was an urban shaman, so most of my work was close to home. I never went into that faux-indian stuff, but I did spend a month on the roof of my house at one point.
It's possible the woman knew what she was up to and went there and did it. In fact, after surviving for 12 days, my guess is that she knew her stuff pretty well.
City dwellers. Many trailheads have dog poop bag dispensers and require people to bag it. They do, but then they leave the bags on the trail instead of hauling them out. I've been on many trails and saw nicely bagged poop along the sides of the trail. The bags don't degrade like the poop.
I call those people third generation apartment dwellers. They have no clue about the outdoors and don't want one.
The BSA is dead by the hands of liberals and Robert Gates. I watched as requirements were watered down in the name of inclusion and leave no trace to the point where no outdoor skills are being taught.
During my last year as a Scout Master, I had to sign off that boys could make a cooking fire when the new requirements state that the boy does not actually need to light the fire in order to pass the requirement. And since that camp was under a fire ban, none of those boys know if they can actually start a fire.
At that same camp, the boys could earn the horsemanship merit badge without actually having to ride the horse. I could go on and on with examples of how the program robs boys of valuable experiences but I will just say I am no longer associated with the BSA and I do not recommend anyone allow their sons to join it. There is nothing there for them any longer.
Enter Trail LIfe. It's very similar to the BSA but without the baggage. All troops are sponsored by churches and it's Christ based. A lot of churches are dropping the BSA and switching to Trail Life. Ours made the switch 2 years ago. I've been teaching compass and map reading to our troop and a few weeks ago, we took them on a map reading expedition in the hills. We've been heavy into fire starting and emergency shelters, too. We have a campout of some kind every month, year round. Last winter we camped in 3' of snow at 10F and the boys constructed shelters to sleep in.
TL has about 250 troops across the country and 30k members so far. It's growing fast. Like any organization of this type, though, it's hard to get the boys' interest with all the competition for their time. Sports, internet, social media, etc. all have a strong pull away from outdoor activities.
I call those people third generation apartment dwellers. They have no clue about the outdoors and don't want one.
The BSA is dead by the hands of liberals and Robert Gates. I watched as requirements were watered down in the name of inclusion and leave no trace to the point where no outdoor skills are being taught.
During my last year as a Scout Master, I had to sign off that boys could make a cooking fire when the new requirements state that the boy does not actually need to light the fire in order to pass the requirement. And since that camp was under a fire ban, none of those boys know if they can actually start a fire.
At that same camp, the boys could earn the horsemanship merit badge without actually having to ride the horse. I could go on and on with examples of how the program robs boys of valuable experiences but I will just say I am no longer associated with the BSA and I do not recommend anyone allow their sons to join it. There is nothing there for them any longer.
Sad but that was some of what we witnessed at the end of my son’s involvement. Our troop was only a couple fathers and sons and we were all heavily involved. Those kids all learned a ton, It was a great Troop. The troop ended with our boys, there were no kids or other parents coming up which was sad but kind of the trend. What we saw going on with the organization as a whole was troubling.
IMHO better to just teach your own kid stuff.
Saw enough dweeb scoutmasters to question their involvement 40 yrs ago.
No thanks.
Woodie:
You should give Henry credit for his presence in your photo.
Bud's kid got Eagle over a decade ago.
Said locally the scouting stuff was about done.
Not enough new people, or old school people, involved.
Here's a wide range of topics I'm throwing out for the crowd.
Brings up the next thought, where do these urbanites learn their outdoor skills? Youtube? At the REI store demo? I learned basic outdoor and survival skills in the Boy Scouts. How to read a compass, tie knots, blaze a trail, make emergency shelter, and how to make fire. I learned orienteering, and how to read a typo map. How to find Polaris or Cassiopia in the northern sky at night. Scouting did teach survival skills. Scouting is dead today.
Today with the reliance on GPS, nobody can read a map and they don't have a good sense of where they are when they start. Forget a compass. They will never look at the direction of the sun when they start. If their cell phone goes dead or loses signal, they have no clue.
Just a bunch of random thoughts. I'm sure you guys see plenty of this.
You are assuming they know how to use the GPS? Story a few years back was on a couple that had their GPS along and got lost and had to be rescued. Twice the same summer IIRC..... in the same area.
Pikers.
An "experienced hiker" or "outdoors person" has never needed to be rescued. OK- I'll give someone once.
Ain't commenting on the "lost" part......
IMHO better to just teach your own kid stuff.
Saw enough dweeb scoutmasters to question their involvement 40 yrs ago.
No thanks.
Basically what our troop was. Some dads and their sons. The one thing scouts did was bring us together, I didn’t know any of the other guys before the kids joined. The kids all knew each other from school. The local organization was filled with plenty of the dweebs. We went our own way and did our own thing, other than the boys doing some of the other functions to advance and camp outs . Years later and I am still friends with the other Dad’s. My son wanted to join so I got involved to make sure some dweeb wasn’t teaching him. I was fortunate that I met 4-5 other guys with the same mindset.
Enter Trail LIfe. It's very similar to the BSA but without the baggage. All troops are sponsored by churches and it's Christ based. A lot of churches are dropping the BSA and switching to Trail Life. Ours made the switch 2 years ago. I've been teaching compass and map reading to our troop and a few weeks ago, we took them on a map reading expedition in the hills. We've been heavy into fire starting and emergency shelters, too. We have a campout of some kind every month, year round. Last winter we camped in 3' of snow at 10F and the boys constructed shelters to sleep in.
TL has about 250 troops across the country and 30k members so far. It's growing fast. Like any organization of this type, though, it's hard to get the boys' interest with all the competition for their time. Sports, internet, social media, etc. all have a strong pull away from outdoor activities.
the issue I think is what is going to prevent them from facing the same issues that the Boy Scouts faced
I know we jumped through hoops to make sure no scout was ever in danger around an adult. I couldn't bring a scout home from a meeting, heck, I dreaded the idea of being in a situation where I was waiting for a parent with the last scout. We never let that happen because we always made 2 adults stick around until the last scout was gone from the meeting. Scouts could never tent with an adult, even their parent and they had to tent with scouts their own age.
but while we didn't have any issues (as I suspect most troops did not) even with those precautions, there were still enough instances of it happening that the scouts are filling for bankruptcy.
IMHO better to just teach your own kid stuff.
Saw enough dweeb scoutmasters to question their involvement 40 yrs ago.
No thanks.
Basically what our troop was. Some dads and their sons. The one thing scouts did was bring us together, I didn’t know any of the other guys before the kids joined. The kids all knew each other from school. The local organization was filled with plenty of the dweebs. We went our own way and did our own thing, other than the boys doing some of the other functions to advance and camp outs . Years later and I am still friends with the other Dad’s. My son wanted to join so I got involved to make sure some dweeb wasn’t teaching him. I was fortunate that I met 4-5 other guys with the same mindset.
it definitely helped me and my son. He ended up being a troop guide for me for 3 years teaching the younger scouts to First Class. I also met some good adults and have formed friendships with them that still continue after we left.
The year I left, the scoutmaster of 19 years left about 3 months after I did and another assistant scoutmaster left about 8 months after. That left only the dweeb parents (well, IMO). Last I heard they only go camping twice a year and the rest of the time they spend the night in museums or YMCA's or even rent a cabin. That isn't camping, that's vacationing.
Scouting is full of q ueers that like to bufu teenage boys and trannie "girls".
That's like saying every Catholic priest is gay, whhich is certainly not the case.
I was just wondering, upon reading your OP, how many folks nowadays "think" like gunswizard. (if you could call gunswizards statement a result of thinking)
I have a feeling the ads for lawyers on the TV for those abused while in Scouts might have something to do with it.
In my years in Scouts, starting with the blue uniformed version on up to an Explorer Scout associate leader, I never experienced anything untoward nor did I see or hear evidence of such. None of my three male siblings have ever alluded to anything inappropriate either.
What about you Hatari?
Any other former Scouts here experience a "come on" or invitation to sleep in the leader's tent?
Scouting could still have a place in today's world, should there be enough interest and should the feeding frenzy over the incidences of perversion not be promoted as the "norm" in Scouts. Unfortunately, I don't think the interest is there.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
I don’t think the girl in Utah was lost, but I don’t think she wanted to be found. Apparently, however, she did want to live.
^^^^THIS^^^^
I smell an attempt at a book deal. Leaves no info on where she is going...etc...leaves cell phone behind, jobless, anonymous "tip" on whereabouts immediately finds her.
Couple things here.
I used to hike with my Dad in Glacier Park. He was a hunter, pretty hard core for a few years until he got what he wanted. But we'd tend to take the steepest routes with the biggest rewards, heading out at O Dark. One thing that struck me when we'd get closer to civilization was the lack of appropriate gear by the vast majority of other "hikers" we'd be meeting on our way back. Sandals? Flipflops? No water. Oh, but they'd have that can of bear whiz, you betcha.
As for navigation, again, Dad was an exemplar because he'd been a pilot. We both loved maps, and when I'd "copilot" because there was an extra seat on a one-way charter, all the way back he'd hit me with "Where are we? What's that river? What light is that?" If I didn't respond immediately, I didn't get to fly any more. So I got pretty good at it. Some years later on a transcontinental airline flight was double overcast, I figured we were over Wyoming somewhere and there was a gap in the clouds, I looked at the pattern of snowdrifts and pinged the stewardess: "Could you ask the pilot if we just went over Rock Springs?" She goes up, comes back with her eyes wide open, and says, "Yep we did. How did you do that?" Well, I could see the ground for like 30 seconds and that was enough.
I started honing my survival skills at a young age and then the military taught me more, then over 10 years on a mountain rescue team allowed me to witness first hand how many knuckleheads and psychos there are in the backcountry. As has been mentioned , something is way off with this chicka, my gut tells me she was looking for attention, maybe a future payday with her "survival story". Anyhoo, this chick does have crazy eyes, so there is that!
I was in the Boy Scouts in England first, they had much cooler dark green uniforms, nicer patches and a green beret. Only camped out once, Gilwell Park, Epping Forest a really big deal of a trip in that time and place.
I was in the Boy Scouts here too, never could warm up to the khakis, I did however go on some great campouts. I fondly recall freezing my a$$ off all night long one night in April of '71 in Upstate NY after believing the hype about "Space Blankets", that little plastic tarp with silver on one side
OTOH I find it hard to fathom now that the Leaders didn't check all our gear before we headed out.
I never experienced a hint of perversion during my time in the Scouts.
OTOH I never suspected anything during my time at an Irish Catholic Grammar School in England when I was a kid, but it turns out at least one of the ten Christian Brothers was an active pedophile.
A lot of stuff could have slipped by back then.
Wouldn't a person at least 3 gallons of water to survive for 12 days in the bush?
I think the fact that no details have been released suggests that there is some question about her story.
I was in the Scouts as well as a few years with the Royal Rangers (First Assembly of God based version). No pervert stuff from my time. Fondest memory was probably some large group camping all in tents (adults in big tents / kids in pup tents). The kids had to set them all up with the occasional guidance from the leaders but no hands on. 7-11 year olds if I have it right in the memory bank because I don't remember my brother there (3 years younger).
About the most terrible thing I remember was us cutting guy wires on a "rival troops" camp. Real tough guys! Of course had we got caught there is no telling what would have happened when we got home.
I never experienced a hint of perversion during my time in the Scouts.
OTOH I never suspected anything during my time at an Irish Catholic Grammar School in England when I was a kid, but it turns out at least one of the ten Christian Brothers was an active pedophile.
A lot of stuff could have slipped by back then.[/quote]
You must've been an ugly kid lol
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
Sir, You would not believe the amount of young women I run across out in the wilderness trails around the country, most always in bad spots taking selfies.
I blame television giving them a false sense of independence.
Crazy lady living in a van decides not to contact her family for two weeks and they declare her lost.
Not one detail in the story how she survived , ate drank, survived hypothermia.( it gets down to the 20's at night now) and managed to get lost in a busy open park.Not even taken to a hospital which is the standard procedure for evaluation. No pics or interviews when she was "found" by a toast tip.
I am impressed the woman survived for two weeks out there; would like to know the story behind that......
The story may end up not being what it seems.
Yup, something does not seem right here.
Yep. She didn't spend 12 days in the outdoors, that's for sure. She probably went on a bender with some friends.
I heard there was a story circulating through the SAR (Search and Rescue) community that she “had fallen and hit her head, causing a concussion and other injuries, and then stayed put close to a stream so she had water to drink until someone found her.” This was passed along by my neighbor who is one of the heads of the Dade County SAR Team here who gets deployed to all sorts of disasters to render aid. I told him, after about a day of that crap, I would have been walking out, concussion or not. The story seems highly unlikely as does the entire “experience” this woman had. The only thing I’ve heard which makes any sense here (assuming her actions were not intentional to help facilitate fraudulent go fund me account payments), is that she had some type of mental breakdown or mental illness, and took off out to the wild to intentionally die.
I’d really love to hear the real story.
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
I know plenty of women from western states that could out hike, hunt, shoot and pack your tired old ass and most eastern tenderfeet any day and in any weather condition. Painting with a broad brush when you hunt high fence is really not smart.
You must be psychic...or a woman to know SO much about me...Not to mention you missed the point entirely about this specific female: "“She absolutely loves hiking and it’s one of her favorite things to do and when she needs clarity and to spend some time with herself, nature is her happy place,” Chambers said. .I guess your "Happy Place" is the Brokeback Montain Sauna and gerbel ranch.
not surprising given your issues with simple mechanical tasks...High fence?
You define Homo sapiens as having a few screws loose because they seek to recharge their batteries with some sounds and sights of nature of God’s Creation? By God, I know an old Marine that has hiked the Appalachian Trail all the way through at least 4 times. Even in his 80s you would not get away with saying he was a “half a bubble of plumb”
Knowing him, he would guffaw at you sitting around in Argyle socks, in front of a fake fireplace, with Treasure Island in your lap for your version of an escape.
I never experienced a hint of perversion during my time in the Scouts.
OTOH I never suspected anything during my time at an Irish Catholic Grammar School in England when I was a kid, but it turns out at least one of the ten Christian Brothers was an active pedophile.
A lot of stuff could have slipped by back then.
You must've been an ugly kid lol
[/quote]
Coulda been, but I was a day student, who got victimized were the kids who boarded there at night. The guy would call them into his office and jerk them off.
Flat amazing what used to get overlooked back then in the 60’s, this only came out years later.
I quit S&R because of some of the people I was involved with finding...people with absolutely no business being in the backcountry, let alone with their families.
2 specific examples that stand out:
1 didn't deal with S&R, but I came across a big fat dude with his wife and two kids right on the edge of the Pintler Wilderness in Montana. They were supposedly hiking the Continental Divide trail. Next to no camping gear with them, and this was in early May with snow on the ground. The kids were shivering and half delirious from hypothermia. Somehow the guy lost his wallet crossing a creek, or something....I didn't ask questions but drove them all to town and kicked their (his, specifically) ass out at a gas station.
2. Guy from Texas brings his family up to Montana and decides to rent some snow machines. They didn't make it back to their lodge that evening so out we got the call and went out first thing the next morning. We found them with their machines buried in several feet of snow at -25 degrees. I brought one 13-14 year old girl out on my snow machine who I believe lost some toes due to frostbite.
There's been others over the years, but these two stand out to me, for some reason. I've brought a few lost people and families out of the back country that I stumbled upon while riding out with my pack train. It's amazing how clueless some people are to the dangers of the backcountry.
Were it not for dumb people SAR would be less fun.
mike r
We took some kids from a children's home camping, in the high country, once.
One panicked and ran off (had left his coat on a tree branch).
Getting colder, after sundown, I tracked him by flashlight ~3/4 mile.
At around 1 in the morning we got a call in to the State Police.
I went up the trail with a few of the 1st on scene, found tracks - and told them "He's come out!"
Their "expert tracker" didn't believe me, but one searcher went with me - the other way.
About 200 yards up a mountain road, the kid came walking out.
We fed him, and got him back to camp.
Later, we had a meeting, where I told all the kids -
"If you've never been "lost" you've never spent much time outdoors. Don't be ashamed.
The worst mistake you can make is climbing the next mountain to see something.
Go downhill - you'll run into a powerline, a creek, or a road.
All of which (downhill) will get you to a village, or a house - where you can get help."
If that kid had come down, and turned right, instead of left, (downhill) and rounded a curve around a boulder - he'd have seen a house ~ 200 yards down the road.
Also told them "The trick is to NOT get hurt!"
My grandfather taught me about fishing - did it well - we had many good times.
If anyone had taught me about hunting, shooting, exploring forests and mountains, navigating with a map and compass, etc., etc., as a kid, I would have considered it heavenly. No one did. Left a big vacant hole.
Once married and having our first daughter, got that initial college degree and immediately came to the SW. Got squared away with my work and family and very soon started a heavy effort to learn and do all of the stuff I had missed - had been waiting a long time. Hit it hard by reading, talking with knowledgeable people and DOING. Kept it going and growing for 40 years - great rewards. Had first grand kids by then.
By then we also lived in the right/best place surrounded by Nat Forest past the fence, and the stream of grand kids came for lots of visits. Even number of girls and boys, and they sometimes brought friends.
They were eager - learned shooting skills, weather factors, forest safety and survival skills, use of compass (each were given their own to keep) for creating and following a route (regularly stop to look back) and reversing the trail to home. We kept upping the challenges - good kids love to be challenged.
Eventually they would set out early morning for a day on their own - older ones as leaders. Always took firearms. Toward the end, they LOVED ending the day somewhere "way out there" and having a camp. making the fire, cooking something simple, waking up with the day break. Using a compass and showing me how to get back to our place. I was overjoyed.
The youngest two are almost adults and soon will finish HS - but I still see all of them as the little twerps with dirt under the fingernails, rumpled hair, one shoe untied, squinting to close one eye and g-e-n-t-l-y squeeze, then racing one another to the targets.
Each knows at least a little bit about personal freedom and self-reliance.
Why are we here?
Spiritual awakening?
Sounds like some '60s hippie thing.
Prefering relative solitude in nature sounds
better than keeping up cheap appearances
at lost sheep church gatherings.
The youngest two are almost adults and soon will finish HS - but I still see all of them as the little twerps with dirt under the fingernails, rumpled hair, one shoe untied, squinting to close one eye and g-e-n-t-y squeeze, then racing one another to the targets.
Each knows at least a little bit about personal freedom and self-reliance.
Why are we here?
Ya done good there Grandpa
I get my sig line from my all-time favorite speech on education, 1744, Canasetego, an Iroquois Statesman, in reply to an offer by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to educate some of their young men.
We know that you highly esteem the kind of learning taught in those colleges, and that the maintenance of our young men, while with you, would be very expensive to you. We are convinced, therefore, that you mean to do us good by your proposal, and we thank you heartily. But you who are wise must know that different nations have different conceptions of things; and you will therefore not take it amiss if our ideas of this kind of education happen not to be the same with yours.
We have had some experience of it: several of our young people were formerly brought up at the colleges of the northern provinces; they were instructed in all your sciences; but when they came back to us, they were bad runners; ignorant of every means of living in the woods; unable to bear either cold or hunger; knew neither how to build a cabin, take a deer, or kill an enemy; spoke our language imperfectly; were therefore neither fit for hunters, warriors, or counsellors; they
were totally good for nothing.
We are, however, not the less obliged by your kind offer, though we decline accepting it: and to show our grateful sense of it, if the gentlemen of Virginia will send us a dozen of their sons, we will take great care of their education,instruct them in all we know, and make men of them.If I were King, being a competent runner, knowing how to live in the woods, bear cold and hunger, build a cabin, take a deer, kill an enemy and compose a concise yet eloquent argument would all be prerequisites for graduation. Might even cause more kids to stay in school.
Spiritual awakening?
Sounds like some '60s hippie thing.
Prefering relative solitude in nature sounds
better than keeping up cheap appearances
at lost sheep church gatherings.
I gotta look for the Lost Sheep Church
OTOH
Many a pilgrim comes into the mountains seeking something their natures couldn't get them down below, comes to nothing. B.C.C. Lapp.
IT begs the question, WTF is a woman doing going for a hike all by herself in the woods? I'm seeing AT LEAST a half bubble of plumb here...
I know plenty of women from western states that could out hike, hunt, shoot and pack your tired old ass and most eastern tenderfeet any day and in any weather condition. Painting with a broad brush when you hunt high fence is really not smart.
You must be psychic...or a woman to know SO much about me...Not to mention you missed the point entirely about this specific female: "“She absolutely loves hiking and it’s one of her favorite things to do and when she needs clarity and to spend some time with herself, nature is her happy place,” Chambers said. .I guess your "Happy Place" is the Brokeback Montain Sauna and gerbel ranch.
not surprising given your issues with simple mechanical tasks...High fence?
You define Homo sapiens as having a few screws loose because they seek to recharge their batteries with some sounds and sights of nature of God’s Creation? By God, I know an old Marine that has hiked the Appalachian Trail all the way through at least 4 times. Even in his 80s you would not get away with saying he was a “half a bubble of plumb”
Knowing him, he would guffaw at you sitting around in Argyle socks, in front of a fake fireplace, with Treasure Island in your lap for your version of an escape.
I have news for you, Ace. "old Marines" don't have to "find" themselves or their "happy place." carry on...
It has always been and ever will be thus. The only recent enhancement has been that the issue becomes so much more visible in the digital age due social media overexposure. Urban and suburban dwellers are a different breed from those raised in fresh air, forests and fields. We could commend them for their efforts to bond with us, but it's more fun to enjoy a good laugh at their expense. It's the same laugh that they might have at our expense were the situation reversed. I know how stupid I feel trying to figure out how to get around on the "T" in Boston or how to translate a Starbucks coffee list into plain English, but I give it my best! Eff 'em; let 'em laugh.
Good post
250 years ago some backwoodsman probably laughed at some greenhorn that needed a compass and a map.
I have no experience with the Scouts but having read some of their material and principles it seemed pretty sound.
That being said I have never met anyone that was in the program that really knew schit about the outdoors.
They all seem heavy on knowledge and light on experience.
I have my father's Boy Scout Handbook from the 1930's. I'm sure it would be an interesting contrast to one from today. He grew up in the middle of what is now a large metropolitan area, but even in the middle of town back then kids learned outdoor skills. He and my grandfather used to take their shotguns and bird dogs and catch the train north out of town, then hunt their way back. Lol, they'd be arrested for terrorism today. I also have a book of his from that was called the Deep-river Jim's Wilderness Trail Club. Lots of good lore in that one, although it was geared more to the North Woods and my dad was raised in the South. He used to say, only half jokingly, that after smokeless powder and breech-loading shotguns, nothing really worthwhile had been invented.
We are ALL amateurs compared to what I've witnessed in Africa when it comes to situational awareness. We were hunting the province of Dande North in Zimbabwe, thousands of square miles. We'd cruise the dirt roads until we cut a buffalo track (or tracks) and follow it for hours meandering all over the place. When it came time to go back, they cut a direct line and hit the spot where we parked spot on.
The day I killed a buffalo, it was pitch black, so off they went to get the truck which was miles away and they came right to the spot where myself and my hunting partner were sitting...Amazing
Two issues, for myself.
- I have always been both horseback and afoot in this region, west slope of the Rockies.
Firstly, the introduction of atv's and the like, this brought in motorsports people into our mountains.
It now is a huge lobby regarding back country access.
These users cannot imagine hunting without.
- I am always a little shocked when I see someone in short pants, no hat and no gear on a mountaintop. We were taught to be prepared and wear wool, light wool in the summer, a good felt hat. Country folks don't even leave the house without a proper lid.
You guys would love
Horace Kephart's Camping and Woodcraft book. Published 1917. My copy is 1974 edition. I got it from one of those Book club deals back in the 70s. Outdoor Life magazine.
Old school stuff and a joy to read.
- I am always a little shocked when I see someone in short pants, no hat and no gear on a mountaintop. We were taught to be prepared and wear wool, light wool in the summer, a good felt hat. Country folks don't even leave the house without a proper lid.
You got that right. What is the obsession with always wearing shorts in the field. Makes no freaking sense to me.
Enter Trail LIfe. It's very similar to the BSA but without the baggage. All troops are sponsored by churches and it's Christ based. A lot of churches are dropping the BSA and switching to Trail Life. Ours made the switch 2 years ago. I've been teaching compass and map reading to our troop and a few weeks ago, we took them on a map reading expedition in the hills. We've been heavy into fire starting and emergency shelters, too. We have a campout of some kind every month, year round. Last winter we camped in 3' of snow at 10F and the boys constructed shelters to sleep in.
TL has about 250 troops across the country and 30k members so far. It's growing fast. Like any organization of this type, though, it's hard to get the boys' interest with all the competition for their time. Sports, internet, social media, etc. all have a strong pull away from outdoor activities.
I know we jumped through hoops to make sure no scout was ever in danger around an adult. I couldn't bring a scout home from a meeting, heck, I dreaded the idea of being in a situation where I was waiting for a parent with the last scout. We never let that happen because we always made 2 adults stick around until the last scout was gone from the meeting. Scouts could never tent with an adult, even their parent and they had to tent with scouts their own age.
but while we didn't have any issues (as I suspect most troops did not) even with those precautions, there were still enough instances of it happening that the scouts are filling for bankruptcy.
There will always be pedophiles. Some churches are telling God to shove it and encouraging homosexuals. There's little hope for them.
At this point, I think Trail Life can face down the liberals who destroyed the BSA. TL isn't funded by Levi Strauss and other large corporations who threatened to unfund the scouts if they didn't allow queer leaders. TL is funded by local churches that can run the local troop like they want it run.
The first rendezvous I took my youngest son to, it rained all day every day. In January, in Texas. We were wearing good wool capotes and dressed for the conditions. All the events took place in light, steady rain. On the way home I asked him if he had fun. His answer was yes. I asked if he wanted to do it again sometime he said "yes but dad, everything we did this weekend is against the rules in Scouts" I asked why do you think that is? He said "too many idiots in Scouts"
I have a third issue and it regards technology.
GPS stuff. I don't like it much and I see younger people that have no sense of direction, no interest in developing one.
A while back we made a hospital run to a major city in our region- Calgary. They insisted on using this nonsense.
We did get to the hospital, but redirected through two school zones to do this.
Later on I picked up a city map, and turned off the hearing aids
The Zion Park woman's mental therapist recommended mushrooms.
I hike the Pacific Crest trail quite often during warm weather. I see many young people hiking, long distance. Far more than 40 years ago! Don't think these young people have no woods skills, because they weren't boy scouts! The area i hike the most includes Crater Lake park north to Sisters wilderness! Plus the gear available today is better than when I was younger!
I have a third issue and it regards technology.
GPS stuff. I don't like it much and I see younger people that have no sense of direction, no interest in developing one.
A while back we made a hospital run to a major city in our region- Calgary. They insisted on using this nonsense.
We did get to the hospital, but redirected through two school zones to do this.
Later on I picked up a city map, and turned off the hearing aids
I have OnX on my phone and I also have a heavier Garmin GPS with an OnX chip. I find them very useful. However, I also always have a compass. In this open country, if you can read a compass, you can usually get yourself found, map or not, unless you need pinpoint accuracy. Of course having a map is better but it's usually not needed for getting un-lost.
I learned a lot by being raised by folks that were up in the woods hunting.
Also was in the Scouts when they had trail craft as a skill.
I guess i have a sense of where i am,matters not in the piney woods and hollows of MS.or pout here where you can get away from town.
Same thing up in the Rockies hunting elk,just seems i can feel where i am relating to where i need to go.
something wrong with this story.
GPS will be useless when they detonate orbital nukes in WWIII. Satellite constellations are very vulnerable.
Simple navigation is a good skill to have.
We are ALL amateurs compared to what I've witnessed in Africa when it comes to situational awareness. We were hunting the province of Dande North in Zimbabwe, thousands of square miles. We'd cruise the dirt roads until we cut a buffalo track (or tracks) and follow it for hours meandering all over the place. When it came time to go back, they cut a direct line and hit the spot where we parked spot on.
The day I killed a buffalo, it was pitch black, so off they went to get the truck which was miles away and they came right to the spot where myself and my hunting partner were sitting...Amazing
Uhhhh....
What's amazing about that?
We are ALL amateurs compared to what I've witnessed in Africa when it comes to situational awareness. We were hunting the province of Dande North in Zimbabwe, thousands of square miles. We'd cruise the dirt roads until we cut a buffalo track (or tracks) and follow it for hours meandering all over the place. When it came time to go back, they cut a direct line and hit the spot where we parked spot on.
The day I killed a buffalo, it was pitch black, so off they went to get the truck which was miles away and they came right to the spot where myself and my hunting partner were sitting...Amazing
Uhhhh....
What's amazing about that?
Jesus you can’t be that dumb... that whole story was amazing because he shot a buffaloe and went to Africa..
Jesus you can’t be that dumb... that whole story was amazing because he shot a buffaloe and went to Africa..
That is cool.
Fershure.
The story may end up not being what it seems.
The whole thing is a 100% put up job done to gain attention or money via a go fund me. That lady wasn’t lost.
I was in the Boy Scouts and I learned a lot. We lived in the suburbs of north Atlanta, and my dad did not want to go camping.
I learned all that stuff when we went camping in Boy Scouts, how to find your way in the woods, how to find the North Star at night, how to build a shelter and build a fire.
Also at Camp Bert Adams we got to shoot rifles.
Also I went to Aquatics Week at Camp Bert Adams, in one week I earned 4 merit badges, Swimming, Canoeing, Mile Swim, and Red Cross Water Safety Instructor.
I was like a junior Navy SEAL at age 12.
I was enrolled freshman year at Ga. Tech, they had a famous swimming coach named Freddy Lanue. He had developed a technique called "Drownproofing." Basically taught you that if you ever went into the water, don't panic and taught you how to tread water for an hour. All freshmen had to take Drownproofing first quarter freshman year and if you flunked, they kicked you out of school. Ga. Tech figured, they didn't want to spend all that time and money to get you the Electrical Engineering degree, and then at age 25 at Lake Lanier, you fall out of the boat at midnight and drown.
Of course, I passed Drownproofing with ease from all my training in the Boy Scouts.
Prefering relative solitude in nature sounds
better than keeping up cheap appearances
at lost sheep church gatherings.
I gotta look for the Lost Sheep Church
....
What value is there in joining a group
thats already lost?..
I gotta look for the Lost Sheep Church
- - -
What value is there in joining a group
thats already lost?
Answer might be driven by one's beliefs regarding redemption, or about giving leadership.
We are ALL amateurs compared to what I've witnessed in Africa when it comes to situational awareness. We were hunting the province of Dande North in Zimbabwe, thousands of square miles. We'd cruise the dirt roads until we cut a buffalo track (or tracks) and follow it for hours meandering all over the place. When it came time to go back, they cut a direct line and hit the spot where we parked spot on.
The day I killed a buffalo, it was pitch black, so off they went to get the truck which was miles away and they came right to the spot where myself and my hunting partner were sitting...Amazing
Uhhhh....
What's amazing about that?
Besides the navigation skills, I would think that two guys sitting in the dark next to a dead buffalo might be of interest, do they have grizzlies there?
Besides the navigation skills, I would think that two guys sitting in the dark next to a dead buffalo might be of interest, do they have grizzlies there?
Birdfugker,
I know you like to pretend that you have a lot of time in the outdoors.
Do it with someone else.
LOL
Besides the navigation skills, I would think that two guys sitting in the dark next to a dead buffalo might be of interest, do they have grizzlies there?
Birdfugker,
I know you like to pretend that you have a lot of time in the outdoors.
Do it with someone else.
LOL
You don't think sitting out after dark in the bush in Africa next to a dead buffalo would be remarkable?
Ain't "the outdoors" like, outside?
I don't pretend anything, just state the facts.
Re: Africa: the most remote I got in was me and a friend 70 miles on foot through elephant country across the Afram Plains, but we didn't have to navigate, we asked the locals for directions, footpaths through tall elephant grass during the wet season. Seen where elephants had passed, all the grass pushed aside in like a channel, never saw any. Just as well, elephant grass is so sharp ya get paper cuts from it, the only avenue of retreat would have been up and down the path.
I have used map and compass more'n many, Camp Bullis mostly over a period of years, finding rebar stakes 1,000 - 1,500m away at bird sampling points, before the first GPS units (1994?) arrived and made it easy so there's that. Excellent place to learn how consistent your paces were over uneven terrain, enough relief that you could check yourself for accuracy.
I hike the Pacific Crest trail quite often during warm weather. I see many young people hiking, long distance. Far more than 40 years ago! Don't think these young people have no woods skills, because they weren't boy scouts! The area i hike the most includes Crater Lake park north to Sisters wilderness! Plus the gear available today is better than when I was younger!
There are ultra light hikers that do the whole trail with no tent and no stove. Using bleach drops for water purification.
Birdfugker,
You’re every teacher I’ve ever met.
LOL
Prefering relative solitude in nature sounds
better than keeping up cheap appearances
at lost sheep church gatherings.
I gotta look for the Lost Sheep Church
....
What value is there in joining a group
thats already lost?..
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. "
(Joh 10:27 ESV)
Birdfugker,
You’re every teacher I’ve ever met.
LOL
Thankyou.
Local news is saying the woman had a head injury, maybe why she stayed lost for so long. A Garmin Outreach would have had her found within an hour.
Local news is saying the woman had a head injury, maybe why she stayed lost for so long. A Garmin Outreach would have had her found within an hour.
An Inreach would have been even faster.
Situational awareness?
Like Jorge1, I shot a buffalo in Africa shortly before dark. One of the trackers took off his heavy coveralls (which they wear over shorts and a shirt--their metabolism is apparently lower and they get cold) and hung them up around the buffalo. This deters hyenas from eating the buffalo. We returned in the morning. At night we had to walk a couple of miles out. At one point we made a wide detour. They explained there was a cow elephant in the path. I didn't even see her. African trackers can see better with their eyes than I could with binoculars.
Boy Scouts of America? They are alive, well, and "straight" where I live.
Situational awareness?
Like Jorge1, I shot a buffalo in Africa shortly before dark. One of the trackers took off his heavy coveralls (which they wear over shorts and a shirt--their metabolism is apparently lower and they get cold) and hung them up around the buffalo. This deters hyenas from eating the buffalo. We returned in the morning. At night we had to walk a couple of miles out. At one point we made a wide detour. They explained there was a cow elephant in the path. I didn't even see her. African trackers can see better with their eyes than I could with binoculars.
Boy Scouts of America? They are alive, well, and "straight" where I live.
Where I was the favored wear among the locals in the bush were long heavy raincoats, London Fog being specifically favored.
In the wet season the tall elephant grass (dunno if that is the correct name, we called it that) would paper-cut the heck out of you if you pushed through it. The raincoat also gave protection against tsetse flies.
This thread is pretty funny. If your post has roads trucks or trackers in it you may not get what remote means. Old guys got stuff done for a long time while learning that the indigs often got lost. The current generation of soldiers, climbers and adventurers go farther, faster and carry less gear than most can imagine...many while wearing shorts. Welcome to the 21st century. My ancient growler and I will go for a hike tomorrow in the Gros Ventre Wilderness, I hope we survive
mike r
Two issues, for myself.
- I have always been both horseback and afoot in this region, west slope of the Rockies.
Firstly, the introduction of atv's and the like, this brought in motorsports people into our mountains.
It now is a huge lobby regarding back country access.
These users cannot imagine hunting without.
- I am always a little shocked when I see someone in short pants, no hat and no gear on a mountaintop. We were taught to be prepared and wear wool, light wool in the summer, a good felt hat. Country folks don't even leave the house without a proper lid.
I use to wear wool, but now there is probably a dozen companies making synthetic stuff that is 10 fold better than wool.
My ancient growler and I will go for a hike tomorrow in the Gros Ventre Wilderness, I hope we survive
mike r
We're all hoping the ancient growler makes it back OK.
My ancient growler and I will go for a hike tomorrow in the Gros Ventre Wilderness, I hope we survive
mike r
We're all hoping the ancient growler makes it back OK.
She is smart enough to pack out my head and fingertips if I get snuffed. Does your wife
know how to cash in on your demise or did you teach her yourself?
mike r
My son is a wealthy man if I cash in before age 70. I try to be nice to him.
BIRDWATCHER - " ... Where I was the favored wear among the locals in the bush were long heavy raincoats, London Fog being specifically favored. ...
London Fog? Waz a matter with those guys? Shoulda been wearing genuine Burberrys trenchcoats for real protection.
L.W.
Velvet Jones: Yes, your Honor. I know why they didn't find the ho sooner, and I can clear this up just three words: Da bitch UGLY!
something wrong with this story.
I told you!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriffs-sergeant-questioning-rescued-zion-111959948.htmlSgt. Darrell Cashin, who helped the search-and-rescue effort, now says he has questions about Courtier's story, and pointed out multiple discrepancies.
For example, Courtier's daughter told CNN that her mother hit her head early in the hike and became so dehydrated that she couldn't open her mouth.
Cashin doubted this claim, saying park officials said she was able to leave the park on her own, largely unassisted.
Cashin also questioned how Courtier was able to survive nearly two weeks alone without, as her family said, food and little water.
something wrong with this story.
I told you!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriffs-sergeant-questioning-rescued-zion-111959948.htmlSgt. Darrell Cashin, who helped the search-and-rescue effort, now says he has questions about Courtier's story, and pointed out multiple discrepancies.
For example, Courtier's daughter told CNN that her mother hit her head early in the hike and became so dehydrated that she couldn't open her mouth.
Cashin doubted this claim, saying park officials said she was able to leave the park on her own, largely unassisted.
Cashin also questioned how Courtier was able to survive nearly two weeks alone without, as her family said, food and little water.
I told y'all she was getting some dick, slip away meet the boyfriend for a few days.
The story also said she stayed near the river for water. Besides being undrinkable because of toxic algae, that's a heavily used area where she would have easily been found. If she'd been drinking the river water, she'd be very sick or dead. She is neither.
[/quote]
I hike the Pacific Crest trail quite often during warm weather. I see many young people hiking, long distance. Far more than 40 years ago! Don't think these young people have no woods skills, because they weren't boy scouts! The area i hike the most includes Crater Lake park north to Sisters wilderness! Plus the gear available today is better than when I was younger!
There are ultra light hikers that do the whole trail with no tent and no stove. Using bleach drops for water purification.
Yep ten drops per gallon of water, is the usual aplication. The mixture does need some sit time to do the work. Where I hike there are lots of springs flowing from the mountain sides! I use a filter pump, when needed. Many springs are drinkable as they flow out of the earth. I still use the filter. In 1968 I got real sick drinking from a spring in the Frank Church wilderness. I don't take chances any longer.
something wrong with this story.
I told you!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriffs-sergeant-questioning-rescued-zion-111959948.htmlSgt. Darrell Cashin, who helped the search-and-rescue effort, now says he has questions about Courtier's story, and pointed out multiple discrepancies.
For example, Courtier's daughter told CNN that her mother hit her head early in the hike and became so dehydrated that she couldn't open her mouth.
Cashin doubted this claim, saying park officials said she was able to leave the park on her own, largely unassisted.
Cashin also questioned how Courtier was able to survive nearly two weeks alone without, as her family said, food and little water.
I told y'all she was getting some dick, slip away meet the boyfriend for a few days.
Don't get offended Roger but it has to be asked....
....can you account for your whereabouts during that period of time?
It is the Deputies who "rescued" her who are ratting her out.
They spent 12 days busting their ass looking for someone who wasn't even lost or who, at least, didn't want to be found.
I bet they have had it up to here with this Psycho Woman. I hope they bill her family for the costs.
The story also said she stayed near the river for water. Besides being undrinkable because of toxic algae, that's a heavily used area where she would have easily been found. If she'd been drinking the river water, she'd be very sick or dead. She is neither.
are you sure ?
![[Linked Image from iranintl.com]](https://iranintl.com/sites/default/files/styles/articles_landing/public/abdaneshamoz.jpg)
something wrong with this story.
I told you!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriffs-sergeant-questioning-rescued-zion-111959948.htmlSgt. Darrell Cashin, who helped the search-and-rescue effort, now says he has questions about Courtier's story, and pointed out multiple discrepancies.
For example, Courtier's daughter told CNN that her mother hit her head early in the hike and became so dehydrated that she couldn't open her mouth.
Cashin doubted this claim, saying park officials said she was able to leave the park on her own, largely unassisted.
Cashin also questioned how Courtier was able to survive nearly two weeks alone without, as her family said, food and little water.
I told y'all she was getting some dick, slip away meet the boyfriend for a few days.
Don't get offended Roger but it has to be asked....
....can you account for your whereabouts during that period of time?
innocent, been working too much.
The story also said she stayed near the river for water. Besides being undrinkable because of toxic algae, that's a heavily used area where she would have easily been found. If she'd been drinking the river water, she'd be very sick or dead. She is neither.
are you sure ?
We get those algae blooms every summer in the Snake River and reservoirs around here. A few years ago, several dogs died after swimming in the Snake near Burley. They routinely close Salmon Falls and Roseworth reservoirs south of here for fishing during the blooms each summer. Some algaes are very toxic. The sheriff in UT said that the river in the park has the same problem and that she would be very sick or dead after drinking from it for a week.
My map and compass training in the Marine Corps, both as an enlisted Marine and as an Officer, during daylight and the hours of darkness, was one of the most important skills I learned and have retained. No doubt. Was also very helpful in my career as an aviator, being able to fly Nap of the Earth (NOE) as well as VFR cross country.
My map and compass training in the Marine Corps, both as an enlisted Marine and as an Officer, during daylight and the hours of darkness, was one of the most important skills I learned and have retained. No doubt. Was also very helpful in my career as an aviator, being able to fly Nap of the Earth (NOE) as well as VFR cross country.
Isn't VFR a technical term for getting
Very
Far from
'ER?
VFR Visually Fly Roads
IFR I Fly Roads