Roger's Bart thread got me to thinking of and looking at Bowies from various sources.

Being that there are different styles and sizes of Bowie's, what are the essential attributes needed to call it a Bowie Knife? I always considered both the Ka-Bar, and the Randall #1 to be of the Bowie type. But
Randall, at least makes other knives they call Bowies.

Most useful style and size of Bowie?
Is there a blade type that should or should not be done on a Bowie? Hollow Ground? Flat Grind? Scandi Grind?
Is there any practical advantage to a Damascus blade?

What is the best source for a practical and durable Bowie today?

A 6 inch Kabar would be a bit handier than the 7 inch version, I like the original version though.

kaywoodie could prolly tell you all you want to know about bowie knives.


he's pretty sharp on history stuff.

I don't think the "Scandi grind" should be done on anything!

unless Charles May does it.....

he does some killer scandi

Men have forgotten the purpose of such instruments and think 6” is sufficient . You’d want your short sword to penetrate the vitals from every angle.

You could tickle a man's ribs with this instrument a long time before you'd ever make him laugh.

Sharp on knives eh?!

Never a DULL moment around here!

that from "Have gun, will travel"?

And i don't think that a hollow ground blade belongs anywhere but the kitchen, but there's a lot of sporting knives made that way, and even some dedicated fighting knives.

Supposedly, that's a quote (or close to it... I'm working from memory) from Bowie, as he showed his knife to David Crockett.

I've gutted, skinned and quartered a lot of deer with hollow ground blades and they seemed to work fine. In fact, just as good or better than many flat ground, convex ground or saber ground blades. I consider gutting, skinning and quartering deer a "sporting knife" purpose best not performed in the kitchen.

Nice, Grizz...

maybe geebuyaa sees this


hes the "knifefather" of the forums.

im sure hes got a bowie or 7.

I'm not sure how to grip a knife with a full guard.

Maybe, or maybe not. Love looking at his knives, but Texas has always gone hard on the Bowie, and I admit that I don't understand that. Seems unnatural, but a Texan can be excused for not having a Bowie in his effects.

I’m not sure Jim Bowie ever saw what we call a “Bowie knife” today.

Here’s one commissioned by his brother Rezin, 1830’s after his brother Jim’s death. Rezin after all was the guy who had the original Bowie knife made for Jim that he used in that famous sandbar brawl, 1827. So Rezin prob’ly knew what Jim’s knif(ives) looked like.



https://officialalamo.medium.com/march-artifact-of-the-month-searles-bowie-knife-5c491a3eb3a0

‘Nother Jim Bowie bowie candidate.

James Black, Little Rock Arkansas made what are now called “Coffin Handled Bowie’s” in the 1830’s, at least one of which was apparently purchased by a Bowie brother. Here’s an original James Black work...



A knife like this might have fallen into Mexican hands at the Alamo....

https://blademag.com/knife-history/the-sea-of-mud-knife-james-bowies-knife-found-pt-1/amp

I've carried a Randall on 4 continents. And you may be right if you intend to do combat with your knife. Personally, I've never known for that to be in anyone's plans.
The Randall was a really knice knife when I bought it. But the 2 3/4" Gerber was the knife that always got used.
The shop that sold me the Randall, gave me the Gerber.

I also bought a Ka-Bar at about the same time. Useful tool in the truck, but I never deployed anywhere with it.

Never felt pulled to buy a true Bowie. Til Roger posted his pics...
Who makes the solidest Damascus blade designed for use?

Cool links Birdy...

https://www.smkw.com/bear-son-damascus-white-bone-bowie

This might be an option for a damascus.

I took a cheap USAF Survival knife and put a hybrid Scandi/Convex grind on it. It's like a razor.

"Ain’t nothing will take the fight out of a man quicker than him trippin’ over his own guts"

Attributed to Rezin Bowie.

Lol, actually that's pretty damn funny.

Cool read;

https://americansocietyofarmscollec...019/06/1992-B67-The-Story-of-a-Knife.pdf

The Shively-Perkins pictured in above article is another. As of late there are some researchers believe this may have been the type of knife that was used in the Sand Bar fight. There exists another article specific to this knife. Trying to locate it.

I would argue that his statement has a ring of truth in it....

Shively-Perkins custom made by Nathan Allen for Scott McMahon, site director at Presidio La Bahia Historic site.

Damn cool blade. Just a big azz butcher knife. Perkins was a US Dragoon officer. Shively the maker in Philadelphia. I believe it was Rezin Bowie who presented this blade to Perkins.

Would like to add the man who could tell us everything we wished to know on this subject was the late Bill Bagwell. He knew his Bowies!

I never bought a Bowie because I can't think of any use for one. We don't have any pigs to stick here. I have a couple large knives {Buck 120 and Ka-Bar} and find little to no practical use for them.

You ever do anything fun just for the Hell of it?

I don't like having a lot of junk around that doesn't get used.

Here's my Marble's Bowie. They are not the company they used to be, and this one is made in China, but it seems well made. I had a professional knife sharpener (A Korean gentleman who has a knife sharpening business in town) put a razor edge on it.

Damascus is for appearances.
Period.


Once upon a time, long long ago, the best steel made came from
Damascus. Without getting into the weeds, I was a lost process and
only a few folks "think" they have reproduced it.

That, was the Damascus steel of legend.
A great product, by very old standards.

Modern Damascus is two different color steels welded together
to show a pattern.

A steel manufacturer takes extreme caution to produce a product
that is uniform in composition, and formation. No inclusions, no voids,
Just uniform steel.

Someone then takes 2 different types of this uniform product,
and heats and beats them together. Hoping, they get every layer
welded solid over the entire length. Without any impurities mixed in.

If it goes well, it can be a great blade.
Probably as good as the better of the 2 steels used.

It may have a striking appearance, there are some awesome craftsmen
who do it very well. It's amazing how the create some of the patterns.

But, you aren't gaining performance.

In the past, some forge welding was done because hardenable steel
was expensive. So a small piece was welded to softer steel to make
a good, cheaper product. Also, heat treating wasn't as understood or
controllable. So soft steel was used to create a tough product that could
withstand impact type stresses, with hard steel incorporated to provide
a cutting edge. Axes are a good example of both reasons to forge weld
hard/soft tools.

Tks Bob, in my reading and browsing I hadn’t come across mention of Lucy Bowie and the Huber knife, nor of knives of designs intended to be issued to troops.

I expect I’ll get to see the infamous Musso Bowie when the new Alamo museum opens, the one that has been befuddling people for like sixty years now, it even made it into the 2004 Alamo movie....



https://www.knifemagazine.com/texas...-knives-slated-for-display-at-the-alamo/

Yeah that Musso is a hunk of steel.

Interesting to note how very different Mr Bagwell’s recommendations in a fighting knife (Bowie) were from that of Lt. Col. William Ewart Fairbairn of Fairbairn-Sykes fame.




Lt. Col. Fairbairn had apparently been in knife fights and even published an instructional booklet on where exactly to cut an opponent, used to be available online but IIRC since removed at the request of his descendants.

A friend gifted me a Cold Steel Natchez Bowie Fixed Blade Knife.

An impressive piece of iron.

I kept it for a few years... then sold it (with his blessings) and gave him the money.

I think I got him $500 for it.



A huge knife has it's place, but personally I prefer to carry a second G19 as a practical matter of function.

Don't read a Kaywoodie post and then go back to sleep.


I dreamt that me, Jim Bowie and Kaywoodie traveled to Sparta to sell the Spartans Bowie Knives and Bazooka bubble gum machines.

That was weird.

Bowies, oversimplified, seem to me to be oversized clip-points. For lack of a better or specific description. Intended to be a “fighting knife”.

That said, seems like a lot of somewhat smaller blades could fall under an umbrella of similar description, like a buck 119 for one. Maybe even a Puma skinner, based on some of the pics I’ve seen here.

I don’t buy knives for fighting, but clip points are my personal favorite for general use hunting and fishing applications, including both knives I just mentioned. My top two, always-on-my-belt, in the field models.

I love how I can do minute detail work with a razor clip point, from filleting bait fish to cleaning birds to skinning deer and popping bone joints, etc. So I don’t understand how some would call it a ‘useless’ design outside of fighting.

Just my take.

But I’m taking about a blade around 5” or a little less. I would think they get the “Bowie” label somewhere beginning around 7”. Or more. Like someone else called it - “a short sword”.

Ethan Edwards had one of those. I guess it's his son's now.

I’m perplexed to wonder if the clip pint feature is more of a post James Bowie thing. Something brother Rezin possibly had more to do with in the evolution of the knife. Definitely feel those Sheffied makers really profited from its further development. Just my rambling. I really don’t know.

Mike I am pretty sure that the original Bowie was made at Old Washington, Arkansas, a few miles West of Hope. Rezin on owned land near Hwy 71 South of Texarkana, according to a sign that used to be along the Highway. miles

I have the top of the line Cold Steel Bowie knife. Very well razor edge sharper. Lay a 2 ought error welding cable on a oak skid and cut it in half with 1 chop

A true double edged blade seems like more of a purpose-specific fighting knife to me. Even if the top edge is only partial length. It should be more than ‘clipped’, it should be sharp, edged, able to be honed. For stabbing and sweeping/slashing both directions.

Miles, something else to remember when discussing "original" Bowies is that Noah Smithwick, while still the blacksmith and gunsmith at San Felipe discussing in his monumental "The Evolution of a State" that James B commissioned for him to fabricate a new fighting knife while he (Bowie) was in town. Smithwick goes on to say that he believed this was the knife He had at the Alamo. But he didn’t know for sure.

Hard to say as Smithwick was exiled from San Felipe for assisting a friend to escape a murder charge in 1831. Lots could have happened in those years btwn 31-36.

Mr. Bagwell explained this was the primary use and advantage to the sharpened clip point. Especially when deployed by an experienced blade man.

johnw;
Top of the morning to you, I hope the day finds you well and you're getting the weather you're needing.

Thanks for the thread and for the responses, since as a lifetime knife guy it's a subject I've studied for at least a half a century now.

In my experience there's likely more opinions about Bowie knives than there are types so a qualified "it depends" is a logical place to start.

Over the years I've ground out at least four fairly big Bowie type blades, two for other folks and two for me.

The one on the left is actually heavier than the one on the right and feels too heavy and poorly balanced to most people who pick it up. The one on the right is better, but there's a bit too much curve in the antler handle.



At one point in our lives we used to do a fair bit of backpack camping and while I started with a big knife, fairly early on I quit bringing it and brought a light folding saw and a tomahawk instead for camp chores and firewood.

Then I had opportunity to correspond with a fellow who'd been beat up and chomped on by a female grizzly - he and his sheep hunting partner were in a tent, in mummy bags and she collapsed the tent onto them and started the melee. Anyways he was very generous with his time in sharing what went wrong and what went somewhat better in the aftermath. One of the takeaways he had was that he began carrying a larger fixed blade which could be used for defense in a pinch, but would be kept in the same place of the tent every night so if one needed to cut one's way out, one had the means.

After a bit of searching and horse trading I ended up with the two on the left.



The top one is a Carl Schlieper "Sportsman's Bowie", likely from the '60's at latest and it's got a really nice balance and fairly lively feel to it. The bottom one isn't a Bowie truly, it's a Gryphon M30A1 but for my needs fits the bill better than the Schlieper Bowie when a bigger knife is called for.

We're not allowed handguns for wilderness carry and in National Parks no firearms are allowed, so out here when we're hiking in one I'm usually carrying bear spray, the Gryphon and using Cold Steel Irish Blackthorn for my hiking stick instead of a lightweight one that I use other places.

Anyways sir, that's just one old Canuck's thoughts on "using knives" which are sort of Bowie sized.

All the best and thanks for the thread again.

Dwayne

Chef's knife.

Bingo. Apparently very popular then too!

No clue who Carl Schlieper is, but dollars to donuts the knife shown in top left is Puma brand. Lanyard to rivets to Sambar stag to finger guard to blade. If that ain’t a Puma, I’ll eat my shorts. If that’s the knife you’re speaking about. Bottom photo.

Sheath too. No question.

Is it to be left to the vitiated taste of the brutal few to give mind to the tone of a community in setting up the code of the Bowie knife against the code of common law?....

...are we to tolerate this Bowie knife system under the false pretense of self-defense? ...Many a woman is made a mourning widow, many a child made a pitiable orphan, and many a father childless through the use of this accursed weapon ..

The good ol’ days, you’re a Judge, you go to a tailor with your brother the Doctor to get some suits made. You feel the tailor is rude, so you go at the tailor with a poker.....

Bloodshed, death and the Bowie knife.

IMG_3364 by Sharps Man, on [bleep]

15" blade! Razor sharp also!

Mr. Harry;
Top of the morning to you sir, I hope you're getting decent weather down in your area which I'll guess is New Hampshire.

With apologies for not mentioning this about that, the Carl Schlieper did come with a Puma marked sheath, so it fits but isn't original to the knife.

The Carl Schlieper Eye Brand was a Solingen knife making firm that still looks to be in business. Here's a link from the Knife Center.

https://www.knivesplus.com/EYEBRAND-KNIVES.HTML

While I wish it was a Puma because of the value, it isn't, but it's not a poorly made knife to be clear.

All the best and Happy Father's Day.

Dwayne

Why, Good morning Duane!

My favorite Deflave alter ego!!

Those are some cool knife displays, and deserve discussion beyond the bounds of a Bowie knife thread, but without going fully off the rails can you tell us about the next Bowie you're gonna build for me?

Also... Two spots below each Bowie in your top pic are a couple of similar looking knives. Narrower blade profile. Antler or bone handles. Spectacular looking knives and Please tell about them...

GR

One of my few crew served knives. 30/06 ctg for scale



Shed horn for handle courtesy Rio7

Wonder how many men have ever achieved that level of experience as a "blade man"? It's not what most guys aspire to.

Yep. Everything I've ever read about the original Bowie knife indicates it was likely a large chef's knife.

Miles! Great to hear from you! I’m sure you’re right.

There doesn’t seem to be any State more invested in Bowie knives than Arkansas.

Arkansas senate names the Bowie knife as the official state knife

I'll take it...
PM me with the price?

The Redlands was a pretty rough area. Especially in the days of flintlock pistols. Sometimes click-wosh was all you got! Then down to nut-cuttin’

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Think I’ll keep it a while longer!

The Redlands was one of them places that Spain (early on) and the US almost went to war over. Not because either side wanted the territory, but because one side was telling the other they HAD to take it or else! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

johnw;
Good morning to you sir, thanks for the reply.

When we left the farm in '84 the bench belt grinder stayed in the shop so most of my knife making after that was with a rotary disc type sander. While that works after a fashion, it's not optimum truly and I've been meaning to either make or buy something like a 2"x72" belt grinder so I can work with a bunch of the Simmonds D2 planer blades a retired planerman from the now closed Weyerhaeuser sawmill gifted me.

The blades you asked about are just drop point shapes I fooled with to see what worked and what didn't for whatever I was trying to build back then. I used a bunch of tool and die steel in those days as that's what we had, as well as whatever steel threw enough long tailed carbon rich sparks when I tested it. My heat treating was by guess and by eye which sometimes made for a decent edge holding blade and sometimes did not... at all.

Where we farmed in Saskatchewan was - in those days - fairly good whitetail country so we usually had a nice stack of drop offs to use for whatever projects needed antler handles. We used to pay my brother's sons to go out looking for them as they'd absolutely wreck a tractor tire if you ran over it wrong.

Speaking of handle material I've got a couple fairly big chunks of mammoth ivory bark kindly given to me by a buddy who works in the Yukon, sitting on a shelf that need to become knife scales, so truly I need to get to making a few blades up for that too.

But then there's a Stutzen stock I started for our daughter at least 5 years back that should be completed first...

Funny how as we age we have an increasing number of projects and a shrinking amount of time.

Thanks again and all the best.

Dwayne

Here is another alleged quote by Rezin Bowie. "Once't they got to walkin' on their guts, the fight was over."

I read that one many years ago in an old Gun Digest article about Bowie knives. I can;t remember the Gun Digest edition.

L.W.

Right? If I had two bullets left, facing a knife armed adversary, and I missed him with the first of the two shots, I’d probably use the last one on myself instead of engaging in a knife fight. Lol.

Leanwolf. I believe that is closer to the actual quote than how I wrote it. 👍🤣

Interesting. Then it’s a very deliberate imitation of the Puma Bowie.

Flave/Dave/Clark/ Duane...

How do a I do a hashbrown tag for disappointment?

Same question to Kaywoodie...

two of mine are.

Mr. Harry;
Morning again sir, well afternoon for you now I see.

For sure I believe that whenever it was made back in the day it was meant to look as close as possible to a Puma.

Here's a net photo of a Puma Sportsman's Bowie for reference.



The location of the lanyard or sheath retention strap hole is different for sure, but otherwise it does look close.

When I traded into it, the information was that it came from "a guy older than me who'd had it forever".

It's hard to say when the Puma sheath came along, but it is set up for the hole placement on a Puma so it's likely a real Puma sheath from back in the day.

I recall that a cousin had Solingen made Bowie with another smaller knife in the same sheath, but held below and in front of it. Here's more or less what it looked life - as I recall nearly 50 years later.



Anyways it's been an interesting topic for me. Thanks kindly for the replies as it's made me think and has brought up some pleasant memories that would not have otherwise come up on a soggy Sunday.

All the best.

Dwayne

johnw;
Well sir, in the best Canadian manners I'm able to display, I'll apologize sincerely for any disappointment I've caused you.

That said, I'd suggest that perhaps it's a Canadian trait to be disappointing?

I'm disappointed with my fellow Canucks quite often...

All the best regardless.

Dwayne

If I could go back in time and offer ol' Jim Bowie my chef's knife, he'd cream his pants.

Just as an aside, we see in the movies made about the Rocky Mountain fur trappers (mountain men) the characters always carry large Bowie knives. From what I've read, they mainly carried "butcher" type knives made by I. Wilson of Sheffield, England. Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the MountainMen, by Carl P. Russell. University of New Mexico Press, © 1967, Alfred A. Knopf. N.Y.

The I. Wilson knives were shipped here by the dozens of thousands in wooden barrels, used not only in the Rockies by the mountain men, but in the kitchens by women all over the country. The mountain men also used then as trade goods to the Indians.

Here is a picture of a very old genuine I. Wilson knife of the type that would have been carried by the mountain men. It has been in my family's kitchens for at least 150 years, perhaps more. I just know it has been handed down multiple times until my mother gave it to me. She'd used it as long as I can remember. I sincerely doubt it was a "mountain man" knife as my mother's family, although very old, did not "go out to the mountains after beaver."

The bottom knife is another butcher knife from the 1930s. My mother used it often, also. Both are in my kitchen and work quite well..



I. Wilson mfg. stamp.



FWIW.

L.W.

He would have liked my Victorinox butcher's knife, too

LW...

When I volunteer at the Alamo I carry two knives, an accurate custom-made replica of an 1830’s +L Sheffield England Trade Knife on my shooting bag, and a rather unspectacular but representative copy of an 1836-1839 Gravely and Wreaks English Bowie, itself a copy of an Arkansas James Black original at my waist.




I point out that the Gravely and Wreakes, replete with silver inlay in its original form, cost many times more than what a plain ol’ English trade knife did. I further point out that the trade knife was also of good steel, was lightweight, easy to carry and of a size and thickness well suited to the myriad daily tasks I might need it for.

The heavy and clumsy Bowie OTOH, was mostly designed to send a social message and for killing people, but poorly suited at best for things like dressing squirrels and making moccasins. Even a Jim Bowie didn’t get in that many knife fights, much less a guy like me, but if push came to shove if you stuck someone with a cheapo trade knife they still died.

I further point out that at 65, I was born in 1771 and so remember how cool us kids were in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s but all the stuff young guys do today (1836), like this whole Jim Bowie knife fad, is just dumb 🙂

In keeping with the theme - when looking at pictures of many of the Civil War soldiers, from both sides, they are often shown posed with large "Bowie" type knives. I suppose some of them may have been photographer's props but I have to believe that many of the soldiers carried "Bowie" type knives as a back-up weapon. I know that if I had to depend on a single shot rifle that was slow to reload I would feel better with a large knife of that type on my person.

I recall reading that there was a brisk business importing Sheffield manufactured "Bowie" knives prior to the civil war, if so they must have been more common than most folk suspect. But I can also see the common user being satisfied with a good Butcher style knife as pictured by LW, they were surely more available, inexpensive and would kill just as deadly as any Bowie style knife.

This is an interesting thread and the links are appreciated, lots of good information / history here from many knowledgeable folks - thanks to you all.

drover

Mike sometime back, might have been in the 1990's sometime, I was working at Hope, Arkansas and there were several men staying there that was attending a knife making class at Old Washington, supposedly in the same building that Black had His shop. Not sure but I think they made Old Washing a State Park, or at least some of it. It was also the State Capitol for a while during the Civil War. miles

He might have liked this one, too. This one's made by Bark River Knives back in the very early days of that company's existence, so it probably has some collector value, too. Great company, by the way. They will bend over backwards for their customers.

Early on, seems like most any big knife carried for the purpose could be called a “Bowie knife”, at the same time identifiable Bowies might be called “Arkansas toothpicks” or “Missouri belt knives”.

As best I can gather, by the Civil War at least knives called “Bowie’s” had clip points and crossguards while “Arkansas toothpicks” were long pointed daggers.

I’m wondering how much terminology was actually driven by the marketing of British manufacturers that eventually made so many of these knives. For example, this 19th Century British-made Bowie isn’t a Bowie....




...it’s a “Buffalo knife”, sold in Canada. I have read that Bowie type Sheffield blades exported to South America were sold as “Gaucho knives”.

Most pre-20th century knives seemed to lack a guard of any sort. I wonder if folks lost fingers when stabbing their opponents.

Miles, I googled up the Bill Bagwell that Bob mentioned, he did a stint at the Old Washington Forge.

https://www.knifemagazine.com/abs-founding-member-bill-bagwell-has-passed-away/

JMHO- I've always thought of the Edwin Forrest
knife as the real thing. Supposedly allegedly
J Bowie personally handed it to him

He was also a member here.

I did not know that, not surprising tho given some of the extraordinary talent around these boards.

I've always wanted a Deleon subhilt.

I remember seeing one very similar to that one on display at the Alamo about 20 years ago that was attributed to Jim’s brother Resin Bowie.

Do they still have something similar on display there, Mike ???

This is what I've always considered a Bowie.
Built this one for my Dad's 70th birthday. Elephant ivory, solid silver & 1095/15n20 basic Damascus.

My best guess would be the Real Bowie knife carried by Jim would be closest to this one of Bob’s.

The “Hollywood Version of The Bowie knife”
is what I call that style of Bowie knifes.
While cool looking, I’m betting they are NOTHING like the Original Bowie.
Great article Mike. Thanks for posting.

Yes, almost certainly same one you recall I believe.

Bark River's version of it.

Dang. Cheapest version I found online is $307. with a Micarta handle.

Yep.

This is another one of mine, made super sharp by a professional knife sharpener who has a business doing that near me. A Korean fellow.

This is made by Hibben. It's called the Cody Bowie.

Beautiful blade.

Here in Texas, Noah Smithwick, one of our best sources on early Texas, has it that after the Sandbar Fight, his friend Jim Bowie had that knife that saved his life polished, given an ivory hilt, and carried openly in a fancy sheath.

Smithwick was a skilled Blacksmith and says that Bowie had him make a copy and that demand for Bowie copies was so high he created a pattern and sold many.

This ties in to a quote I have read somewhere stated in these years every piece of spare iron west of the Mississippi was beaten into Bowie blades.

So in the 1830’s a sudden proliferation of Bowie knives across the American South. Not so much tools as expensive fashion/social statements and an indication that the wearer was prepared to do combat.

Guys in that culture were rather easily offended, recreational drinking of whiskey was a norm, and now everyone’s showing up in the saloon with big honking Bowie knives. They say when you carry a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.

Not much talked about but an epidemic of what we would call “knife violence” sweeps the South; guys getting cut down in stupid fights.

So in response to all this you get “knife control”.....

https://militaryhistory.fandom.com/wiki/Bowie_knife#cite_note-33

In 1837, one year after Bowie’s death at the Alamo, the Alabama legislature passed laws imposing a $100 transfer tax on 'Bowie' knives and decreeing that anyone carrying a Bowie knife who subsequently killed a person in a fight would be charged with premeditated murder.

Louisiana and Virginia prohibited the concealed carrying of any Bowie knife, while Mississippi made such knives illegal when carried concealed or when used as a dueling weapon.

In Tennessee, the use of Bowie knives to settle disputes on the spot so alarmed state legislators that in 1838 they not only made the concealed carrying of a Bowie knife a criminal felony, but also prohibited the use of a Bowie knife in any altercation, regardless of self-defense or other mitigating excuse:

"That if any person carrying any knife or weapon known as a Bowie knife...or any knife or weapon that shall in form, shape, or size resemble a Bowie knife, on a sudden encounter, shall cut or stab another person with such knife or weapon, whether death ensues or not, such person so stabbing or cutting shall be guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof shall be confined in the jail and penitentiary house of this State, for a period of time not less than three years”.

No word on what specific features determined if a knife was a “Bowie knife” or not.

This is a custom Bowie made by a fellow named Voorhis, name engraved on the blade. I bought it some thirty years ago or more. Don't know much about the maker.

I have read that the rigors of campaign and many miles travelled on foot had a way of having soldiers toss any extraneous weight, heavy knives included. Here’s a link for Civil War loonies stating as much, tho who knew most everyone carried a pocketknife?

N.B.Forrest killed a guy with his. See...


https://civilwartalk.com/threads/civil-war-era-knives.96504/?amp=1

Agree...

I would like to hear more/additional pictures.

One time, backpacking on the AT, I was climbing a steep section of the trail and at a switchback found a kukri stuck point down in the dirt beside the trail.

I pulled it up, saw that it was nearly new, and contemplated for a minute or two making it mine.

Then I stuck it back in the dirt and left it there. It was a warm day.

Gee, did you read that once?

LOL

Some underrated knives, those Ek's.

Nice pic. That's gotta be an 80s or 90s era?

That's one bad ass Randall you have.

KayDub,

What was the official designation of the double edge knife that Bale's character carries in Hostiles?

That is a bad ass blade pattern. I asked Gruff to make me one but he told me to GFM.

Bowie Knife is a pretty vague description that fits many knife designs since nobody really knows what one looks like. Everybody has their own idea of what makes a knife a Bowie and it can lead to a tremendous variety of knives that can acceptably be called a Bowie. That is a great situation for a knife maker. Here are a few my brother, 348srfun, and I have made at Twin Blades over the years. The buyers all thought they were Bowies. ,

I'm going to get one of those someday, have wanted one for years.

A Randall in general or that particular Randall?

If you can, order one now. They're awesome knives in more ways than one. My son just deployed for the first time and I gave him one. Will be a fun keepsake if he lives to be old.

I thought it was impressive, too.

It's a real knife that was manufactured by Springfield and legit issued.

Unless I'm misinformed.

Counting on Kaydub to set me straight. Could use a book reference too.

Looks like an 1880 Springfield.

Here you go, Deflave. It's all yours: eBay

A sasquatch.

Thanks for the link to scam central.

I’ve got the twin to your DeLeon Bowie, although mine has a black Micarta handle.

He was a heck of a knife maker, and of course, a native Texan. He used set up at the Lubbock Gun Show, many many years ago. Wish I had bought more of his custom knives when he was still alive. They have gone up considerably!

Yup!!! Thats what it is! M1880. Sorry for taking so long to get back. In the middle of moving my digs to new locale. My favorite martial blade is the M1849 Rifleman’s knife by Ames Mfg. Chicopee Falls Mass. Lots of Indian made copies out there. Springfield Hospital Corps knife is pretty cool too as well as the bolo knife. Look em up!!!

Hmmmm, more googling.

The Bolo versions are pretty cool. Last one I saw at the big Tulsa Gun Show was not cheap.

M1849 Ames Riflemans knife

M1904 Hospital Bolo

That’s cool Bob ! Never seen one.

I used to have a Patton Sword that they cut down to make a soldiers knife in WW-1 with the original grip still attached. Gave it to my nephew that you’ve met that does re-enactments at Camp Mabry

I have three of these. Rigid Alamo Bowie. Damn things are 17 inch with a 10 1/2 inch blade. The spine of the blade is 3/8 inch thick and weighs prolly close to for pounds. Real practical... An everyday carry knife right. I have both a gun and knife problem.

No one ever said Jim Bowie made men equal, Colonel Colt did.

As best I can gather affordable, reliable revolvers first achieve general distribution here in Texas with the arrival in numbers of the ‘51 Navy in the mid 1850’s.

The end of the “tyranny of the Bowie knife”?

Birdwatcher,

You mentioned the name Smithwick, that reminded me of an old town out on 1431, between CedarPark and Marble Falls. Nothing really there anymore.

You have a good memory.

Later on during his near thirty year career in Texas, Noah Smithwick was one of the first settlers of that section of the Colorado River. Throughout his life he was an industrious individual and built a mill at that location.

Shortly thereafter, being a confirmed Union man. he left Texas for California at the outbreak of the Civil War.

Many years later, when he was approaching 90 and going blind, his daughter had him relate the events of his life to keep him occupied.

A guy who’s extraordinary life reads like a Texian miniseries. Best of all his whole memoirs are available online. See....

The Evolution of a State, or Recollections of Old Texas Days

He is so matter-of-fact it bears careful reading or you might miss it. Like the time around 1840 the Comanches stole his horse, so he reads their tracks, checks the priming on his rifle and sets out on foot to recover it ”because there were only two of them”.

Viking,

As an aside, I have taken the same route a Smithwick in my recent western migration. I have moved from his old stomping grounds on the Wilbarger trace NW of Bastrop on the Joseph Rogers grant, out onto a portion of the old Fowler grant on the Burnet/Blanco co line. Im a bit southeast of his old Burnet county digs SE of the conflux of Double Horn creek (close to his mill location) on the Colorado.

Yep. Colt revolvers replaced the Bowie knife as the best, serious, regularly carried, personal sidearm in the US, but the 1849 Pocket Revolver was actually a hair earlier than the 1851 navy, and was always a bigger seller. The Navy was close in popularity, though.

The Dragoons were never popular personal civilian arms.

Tks for the info.

Ranger Captain John Salmon Ford in his memoirs “RIP Ford’s Texas” states that, early 1850’s, his Ranging Company” was reduced to using old single-shot horse pistols due to a lack of “serviceable revolvers”. Didn’t matter that much anyway as most of his Comanche fighting was done with rifles.

1857, Frederick Law Olmstead (the guy who went on to design Central Park in NYC) left us an invaluable snapshot of Texas in his “A Journey Through Texas”. By then guys all over Texas were packing Colt revolvers.

I've got one of these but don't have the sheath. I really should search for one.

What lots don’t of folks don’t realize in these days of relative stopping power et al, is being gutshot with anything was pretty much a death sentence back then. .31 or .36 cal. round ball or conical, no matter. You gonna ride off and die a miserable death, somewhere.

George Childress, in a fit of drunken depression disembowled himself with a Bowie

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Childress

Another hero of the Tx. Revolution, Dr. Branch T. Archer ( Archer City Tx named for him), tried to shove his guts back in and sew him up best he could. But to no avail.

A little info on the alleged knife maker James Black.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Black_(blacksmith)

This is a little speculation but he was known as an enterprising self promoting type. I suspect that having famous people like Crockett and Bowie in town was too much temptation for him to resist and he couldn’t help but make a special knife for the famous knife fighter. It probably wasn’t the first “Bowie” knife but it likely contained some “improvements” or special touches and might very well have been the knife Bowie carried at the Alamo a few months later.

That’s a great book. I actually read it twice.

So James Black left home at age 8, that’s pretty hardcore.

Several great passages in the book, my own favorite is when he reflects upon the action where they tracked and surprised a Comanche war party and rescued the young Hibbons boy (1837 ??)

I was riding a fleet horse, which, becoming excited, carried me right in among the fleeing savages, one of whom jumped behind a tree and fired on me with a musket, fortunately missing his aim. Unable to control my horse, I jumped off him and gave chase to my assailant on foot, knowing his gun was empty. I fired on him and had the satisfaction of seeing him fall. My blood was up and, leaving him for dead, I ran on, loading my rifle as I ran, hoping to bring down another..... The brave whom I shot, lay flat on the ground and loaded his gun, which he discharged at Captain Tumlinson, narrowly missing him and killing his horse; when Conrad Rohrer ran up and, snatching the gun from the Indian’s hands, dealt him a blow on the head with it, crushing his skull....

The boys held an inquest on the dead Indian and, deciding that the gunshot wound would have proved fatal, awarded me the scalp. I modestly waved my claim in favor of Rohrer, but he, generous soul, declared that, according to all rules of the chase, the man who brought down the game was entitled to the pelt, and himself scalped the savage, tying the loathsome trophy to my saddle, where I permitted it to remain, thinking it might afford the poor woman, whose family its owner had helped to murder, some satisfaction to see that gory evidence that one of the wretches had paid the penalty of his crime.

That was the only Indian I ever knew that I shot down, and, after a long experience with them and their success at getting away wounded, I am not at all sure that that fellow would not have survived my shot, so I can’t say positively that I ever did kill a man, not even an Indian.

Cool stuff 😎

Pretty sure Captain Tumlinson is one of my ancestors. there were several in the Rangers.

I've looked for some books I had that had quotations
from period newspaper accounts of where Rezin Bowie
had written to state that he had "the " Bowie knife made
by Jessie Clift as a knife for James after an attempt
on his life and as a hunting knife, and other eyewitness
accounts of the knife being a large butcher knife.
One letter from Rezin to a newspaper said that the
the knives we think of as Bowie knives were brought
about by other knife makers and not by himself.
That's why I've always thought of the personal
knife of Bowie as the E Forrest knife
I'm thinking Rezin also designed what we call a
Searles Bowie knife

Here you go Mike.

JOHN J. TUMLINSON

Security Lower Guadalupe River
Siege & Battle of Bexar
Comanche Raid on Linnville 1840
The Battle of Plum Creek 1840 (unclear)

Tumlinson was born 19 Dec 1804 in probably NC (some records call him a native of Tennessee), was a military leader and Indian fighter involved in security of the DeWitt Colony, particularly the area around current Cuero covering most of current DeWitt County and northern Victoria County. He arrived in the DeWitt Colony in Dec 1829 with a family of 2 in land records and received a sitio on the east bank of the Guadalupe River adjacent to the Jose Valdez tract on which Cuero became located through purchase by Samuel Williams subsequent owners. He was commissioned by the Provisional Government of Texas in Nov 1835 to form a company of rangers for protection of an area northwest of current Austin and is considered one of the earliest "official" Texas Ranger captains. With his company, he served in the Siege and Battle of Bexar.

In Feb. 1836, Capt. Tumlinsons company was in the area when Mrs. Hibbins appeared at the Hornsbys after her escape from Comanches which had taken her and children captive after murdering her husband and brother (and subsequently her baby) while returning from a visit to her home in IL. Capt. Tumlinson knew Mrs. Hibbins well who had lived in the Cuero area where her previous husband McSherry was also murdered by Indians. Capt. Tumlinson gave immediate pursuit following Mrs. Hibbins description. According to author John Henry Brown, Tumlinson knew the country and was sure he could intercept the Indians further up the country. After traveling all night stopping only to rest his horses, he encountered the Indians about 9 AM just as they were breaking camp which Capt. Tumlinson described in his own words.

"The Indians discovered us just as we discovered them, but had not time to get their horses, so they commenced running on foot towards the mountain thickets. I threw Lieut. Joseph Rogers, with eight men, below them--and with the others I dashed past and took possession of their route above them. The Indians saw that the route above and below them was in our possession, and struck off for the mountain thicket nearest the side of the trail. I ordered Lieut. Rogers to charge, and fell upon them simultaneously. I saw an Indian aiming his rifle at me, but knew that he must be a better marksman than I had seen among them to hit me going at my horse's speed, and did not heed him till I got among them. Then I sprang from my horse quick as lightning, and turned towards him; at the same instant he fired; the ball passed through the bosom of my shirt and struck my horse in the neck, killing him immediately. I aimed deliberately and fired. The Indian sprang a few feet into the air, gave one whoop and fell dead within twenty-five feet of me. The fight now became general. Pell-mell we fell together. The Indians, thirteen in number, armed with bows and rifles, were endeavoring to make good their retreat towards the thicket. Several of them fell, and two of my men were wounded; when finally they effected an entrance into the thicket, which was so dense that it would have been madness to have attempted to penetrate it, and we were forced to cease the pursuit. I dispatched Rogers after the child, the horses and mules of the Indians, whilst I remained watching the thicket to guard against surprise. He found the child in the Indian camp tied on the back of a wild mule, with his robe and equipment about him fixed on for the day's march, and had to shoot the mule in order to get the child. He also succeeded in getting hold of all the animals of the Indians, and those they had stolen. My men immediately selected the best horse in the lot, which they presented to me in place of the one that was killed. We watched for the Indians a while longer and in the meantime sent a runner for the doctor to see to the wounded. I sent a portion of the men under the command of Rogers with the child, and the wounded men and I brought up the rear. The wounded were Elijah Ingram, shot in the arm, the ball ranging upwards to the shoulder; also Hugh M. Childers, shot through the leg. Of the Indians, four were killed. We arrived that night at Mr. Harrell's, where we found Mrs. Hibbins, the mother of the child. Lieut. Rogers presented the child to its mother, and the scene which here ensued beggars description. A mother meeting with her child released from Indian captivity, recovered as it were from the very jaws of death! Not an eye was dry. She called us brothers, and every other endearing name, and would have fallen on her knees to worship us. She hugged her child to her bosom as if fearful that she would again lose him. And---but tis useless to say more."

The following is the uncompleted roster showing dates of service of Capt Tumlinson's Rangers who participated in the rescue of the Hibbons child. The compilation was contributed by and is part of the ongoing research of James D. Gray. It has been compiled largely from records in the Texas General Land Office and Archives of the Audited Claims of the Republic of Texas. Capt. Tumlinson received his appointment as a result of the independence Consultation of November 1835 at San Felipe de Austin. As indicated on land claims, the troop was under command of Major Robert M. Williamson who was also appointed at the consultation.
OFFICERS
Captain John J. Tumlinson (28 Nov 1835-17 Aug)
1st Lt. Joseph Rogers (28 Nov 1835-9 Aug; Died 9 Aug)
2nd Lt. George M. Petty (28 Nov 1835-March 1836; resigned)
PRIVATES
Hugh M. Childress (17 Jan-18 July) (Wounded)
Joseph Cottle (3 Feb-26 Apr)
James Edmunston (9 Feb 1836 -)
Felix W. Goff (17 Jan-17 Apr)
James P. Gorman (3 Feb-3 May)
Daniel Gray (3 Feb-20 Jul)
Joshua Gray (4 Feb-27 Apr) (Died 27 Apr)
Thomas Gray (3 Feb-26 Apr)
James Haggard (3 Feb-27 Apr)
Howell Haggard (1 Feb-14 May) (Died 14 May)
Eligah W. Ingram (18 Jan-14 Feb)
(Badly wounded, discharged at Hornsby's)
Robert B. Owen (2 Feb-15 Mar)
Henry P. Redfield (10 Feb-15 May)
Noah Smithwick (29 Jan-29 Apr)
Joseph Weakes (8 Feb-15 Mar)

Ruben Hornsby/ Scout
Conrad Roarer (Rohrer)/ Wagon Master

By consensus, Capt. Tumlinson became the commander of companies led by Capt. Ben McCulloch from Gonzales and "Black" Adam Zumwalt from the Lavaca River settlements in pursuit of Comanches moving through the colony on to Victoria and Linnville on the coast.

Capt. Tumlinson served in Company F under Capt. Heard at San Jacinto. He was a farmer, rancher and land trader in addition to his role as a minuteman ranger in security of the colony against Indian and Mexican raids. His first wife Laura Cottle was the daughter of Stephen and Sarah Turner Cottle of the Austin Colony. Laura Cottle was the sister of Harriett Cottle, wife of Capt. Tumlinson's brother Andrew. After wife Laura and their son Joseph died, Capt. Tumlinson moved to the community of Clinton on the Chisholm tract across the Guadalupe River from current Cuero. Tumlinson married Delaney Aster then her sister Mary Ann Aster. John Tumlinson died in May 1853 leaving one known heir, daughter Amanda L. Tumlinson. She was raised by John's brother Peter in Atascosa County and married Cullen W. Edwards.

Roger, one of my Great Grandmother’s was a Edwards.
Looked up Cullin W Edwards, that Tumlinson’s daughter married on my Family Search .Org app and it appears we are distant cousins. 😬

Small world ! 🤠

Guess that Bowie knife I sold ya “stayed in the family, “ after all ! 😬

Yep. I bet his asswhole was puckering when his fast horse carried him ahead into the middle of the Comanche war party.
Good stuff ! 🤠

Pretty cool, I'd have to check but I believe the Captian's mother was my grandmother 5 back on my Dad's side, after her husband was killed by Waco Indians in 1821 on his way to San Antonio to with the alacade "governor"? to form the Rangers, she married Lewis Demoss and their Daughter married a Hunter.

Very cool thread. Too bad Bill is no longer with us. When I first visited with him right after I retired (he kindly invited me to his "graduate" school of all things Sharps & the "art" of Holy Black Powder after ET gifted me a Sharps on the occasion of my retirement), he showed me his knives and how and where he made them. I always wanted one of his knives and I eventually got on his waiting list, but unfortunately, he passed away. Gunner 500 I know has one of his knives, maybe he can post a picture.

My buddy Andy Babin has a couple as well Jorge.

Tumlinson built a blockhouse up north of Brushy creek. Up between present Cedar Park and Leander. (Blockhouse creek subdivision now). Furtherest white post to the NW in 1837!

Currently sells ng my place here and moving west. But This place is on the 1831 grant of the Lt. Joseph Rogers above. He was killed by a Comanche lance between Hornsby’s place and the Eastland blockhouse while running powder and ball from the blockhouse to Hornsby’s. Rogers was married to Edward Burleson’s sister. Their old cemetery is right up the road. Derelict. I showed Birdy where it was and often contemplated it was the final resting spot of James Burleson. Edwards father and second husband of Mary Christian-Burleson. Who’s first husband was killed and scalped in the famous Wilbarger massacre. James was a war of 1812 vet and vet of siege of Bexar and the famous grass fight. He succumbed to pneumonia right after siege of Bexar.

Conrad Rohrer was killed by Comanches while saddling his horse in the front yard of Mr. Moore’s cabin on Onion creek just south of the present Austin/Bergstrom Int. Airport. It was Rohrer who initially rode up to the Hibbuns boy, who was wrapped in a buffalo robe on horseback and tried to discharge his pistol i to the boy thinking he was a comanche. Luckily the pistol misfired.

Several of the stories of the Hibbins rescue state that Mrs Hibbins made her escape way up on Walnut creek. But this makes little sense. A more likely candidate would be Shoal creek that runs thru present central and downtown Austin as she stated she escaped when they got to the edge of the western “mountains”. And she kept these mountains to her right as she made her way south to the Colorado river.

Oops. Forgot to mention. Location of the Eastland blockhouse is about a mile west of the intersection of US 183 and MLK blvd in east Austin. One had to cross a well established crossing and road at Walnut Creek (route between Hornsby’s and the blockhouse) to get the Colorado. Had Mrs. Hibbins used walnut creek for escape she would have passed this crossing. It was just east of this crossing where Joseph Rogers was killed.

Mrs. Hibbins stated that when she got to the Colorado she got in the river and started traveling downstream. She only got out when she saw several milk cows watering at the bank. These were Reuben Hornsby’s cows. She knew she was close to a friendly spot then.

There is another good story from Eastland Blockhouse of the ranging company witnessing a large fire to the south approx. 5 or 6 miles off. They suspected it was a Comanche camp. They are pretty sure now it was the big hill where St. Edwards univ. is presently located. They immediately organized a patrol to investigate. But upon their arrival they discovered an empty camp as the Indians had left. But there was evidence they had had a large dance and gathering. Probably much better deal for the ranging company.

In the James Black wiki page, it mentioned that he went and set up a forge and a mill and was run off after the locals determined it to be Indian land. Im pretty sure I know where that is. It is a slough that is called Mill Slough where there was a known mill later in the 19th Century. But it is about five or six miles from what was then the main/only white settlement in the area on a river crossing of what was possibly the military road to Fort Towson. It would fit the same thing he did with his first shop. Move a few miles from the main settlement at a prominent location and wait for business.

I figure after the Indians were shuffled further west and someone was looking for a place to build a new mill, they just moved into a place where the pond and the courses had already been built.

Fort Towson is a cool place! We have events there.

I have one of those too! They are both cool and ridiculous at the same time. Someone included a poorly made sheath with mine, but it's not original to the knife. There is a fella in Saxis, VA that is an excellent sheath maker, I am going to have to send him a good outline of the blade and get a proper sheath made for it so I can never carry it anyway...

This is the quintessential Bowie, IMO.

I've been looking for one of his sub-hilts, if I find I would sell a gun or two to get it.

Conrad Rohrer was apparently a large, profane German. He’s the guy Smithwick recalls bashing in the skull of the Indian he shot after said Indian shot Tumlinson’s horse, narrowly missing Tumlinson.

If Smithwick’s account, delivered about sixty years after the fact, differs in some minor details from Tumlinson’s, time is unlikely to have obscured the details of Rohrer being the guy who scalped the dead Indian and tied the “loathsome trophy” to Smithwick’s saddle.

Two month’s later, Rohrer was a teamster with Sam Houston’s retreating army, and he was the big, tough guy bested by a Mrs Pamela Mann when she reclaimed her oxen, an incident long since ingrained in Texas folklore. See....

https://www.thc.texas.gov/blog/unheralded-heroes

I don’t know if the Robert Hancock Hunter from who’s eyewitness account the incident is drawn, also was a blood relative of Roger.

Further down the page, the Mexican General Manuel Fernandez Castrillon, who died at San Jacinto, was the same guy who reportedly offered his protection to the last group of survivors in the church at the Alamo ( possibly including David Crockett), only to be overruled by Santa Anna.

The other Mexican General mentioned, Juan Almonte, had been sent to school in New Orleans as a youth for his own safety while his father fought for Mexican independence and so spoke fluent English.

Almonte’s declining to open fire on the new Republic of Texas President Steven Burnett and his family even though Santa Anna was at that point desperate for any victory or any arrest at all, can only have added to Santa Anna’s decision to rush north to San Jacinto to cut off any possible escape attempt by Houston and his army on the ferry there.

B.E. hunter came to Texas in 1870 and married Isabella DeMoss, the earliest reference that I know of.

Where is it located, Bob ?

. Just across the river from Paris. And east of Hugo. When you cross the river turn right and go thru Frogville. Nice drive

Thanks. I’d never heard of it.

Here is an article about a knife identified by an expert as a probable James Black knife at known river crossing where elements of the Mexican Army crossed between the Alamo and San Jacinto.

It is a three part article with a link to the next part at the end of each. It’s pretty interesting to me as that I am familiar with most of the areas mentioned.

https://blademag.com/knife-history/the-sea-of-mud-knife-james-bowies-knife-found-pt-2/amp

Archaeologist son did a mitigation of a plantation site on Trammels Trace down by Tatum Texas. Found some cool stuff. Found a gunlock (flint) in the kitchen around the fire hearth they believe they were using as a fire starter. No other gun parts ( other than a tow worm) found. Just speculation. But interesting.

My brother used to have a client who owned a good bit of land that had been won by an ancestor coming up the Red River on steam boat to Fulton, Arkansas in the 1830s.

Not looking for a huge display knife. Practical and useable...

I would just pick a reputable knifemaker there are a lot to choose from.

This is a pic of Jerry's/Gunner's Bagwell Bowie made for him. It was made for his wingspan, 78 inches the blade is 11-3/4, a true fighting knife.