What Bugs You the Most in Posts?

The recent thread in Optics has got me thinking. I am irritated most by what I have always been irriatated by--the injection of emotion via sarcasm and ridiclue. This type of emotionalism is what starts the pissing contests we all hate.
 
 When posts are simply folks explaining what they think, what they have experienced, and why they like or dislike something, then info is exchanged and postings are excellent. However, when someone just has to add the emotional statements, someone else objects and the whole thread goes to pot.
 
 Examples include: "If you want to believe that marketing hype,......." "If you like brand x that's fine, but only the best is good enough for me," "You obviously cannot...............", "You obviously didn't read my post," "In the real world," etc. They can be subtle so the originator can claim ignorance, and then suggest to anyone who see's through it as "thin skinned." Sadly, most of us have been guilty of this crap one time or another.
 
 I personally believe whenver we resort to those tactics it's because our pride has been hurt and we are trying to sustain our egos. What a waste. Nobody cares one bit about the status of anyone else's ego.
 
 What irritates you the most on these forums?
 
 Blaine

I think you hit squarely on the head. I just find it hard to type in the correct "tone of voice" sometime. [Linked Image]

Blaine
 Reminds me of the "Arkansas close" as practiced by car salesmen when dealing with the cognitively challenged...
 
 Pimp says, after a convoluted lecture on a simple point, "you would have to be a moron not to understand that... you do understand what I said, don't YOU?" Sign here comes next...
 
 It is all about winning the debate, not about actually being right. Though of course I always am ;-)
 art

I think I'd like to throw a different slant on it, Blaine.
 
 What I like most about these Boards is getting different perspectives from people on what they like and why, as well as exposure to infinite angles on guns and hunting through other's experiences that I wouldn't get otherwise. Frankly, I like this stuff too much to rely on monthly superficial gun rags and occasional encounters (remember, I'm in Kalifornia) with fellow hunters/shooters. The idea of a virtual campfire that always flickers was the driving (if not wholly original) vision of this place, and I am very satisfied in what we all have. It is awesome! I can come here every night and learn and experience more about genuine hunting and shooting from the most impassioned, actual hunters of the world than in a month of issues of gunrags. That, I treasure.
 
 As to the occasional tiffs (and I do disagree that we have lots of flame wars on the Campfire ... I get around enough to know we have the cream of the crop here, and no bull about it), I have absolutely no problem when someone says: "I like XYZ, and this is why ..." even if I disagree strongly with it.
 
 The notion of respecting what that person chooses, rather than attacking them because it is not what you would choose in your situation, or what you would choose in the other person's situation, strikes me as gentlemanly, sophisticated, intellectual even. That doesn't mean you can't challenge the notion, but there is a respectful, dignified way to challenge and question, and an attacking, less respectful manner that bespeaks more truth than it often offers or requests.
 
 A true intellectual discussion is a mutual and varied search for truth, with the recognition that truth is often individual. I like cigars. That is truth for me. Many people hate cigars. That is truth for them. Who am I to tell them cigars taste good?
 
 The outgrowth of a true discussion, a mutual search for truth, is the movement of one or both parties closer to what is the truth for them, to the betterment of both hopefully. When others pick up knowledge and insight by participating, either actively or passively, the benefits are multiplied exponentially. Then, all is right with the Campfire, and it is a noble thing! That is the atmosphere I try like hell to nurture, because even a dimwit like me can recognize the power of that collective experience.
 
 The other, and we all succumb to its temptations once in a while, is simply less. Inferior. I can accept it when it results from anything but outright malice. Sometimes, I have a hard time. It is hard to give the benefit of the doubt when there IS no doubt about the poster's intent. What I've found is that eventually most guys will realize that there is an unmistakable, tangible worth to respect. You respect the one guy that ticks you off the most, even though it hurts like hell to do it, and 10,000 other guys continue to respect you, or respect you more. You succumb to that one idiot who ticks you off, and you drop like a rock in the eyes of 10,000.
 
 It's an easy choice for me.
 
 Sorry for the soapbox. I didn't mean for it to be this long.
 
 Rick

Man, I'm tired. I've been working all day. I hope I don't sound delirious! [Linked Image]

Oh well. I'm among friends.
 
 Rick

"What Bugs You the Most in Posts?"...
 
 
 ...any of the contents in DonKnows posts. I never read them anymore, except for today under the "Optics" thread I made the mistake, now I remember why he gets skpped over and I don't waste my time with any of his worthless drivel.

Spike,
 
 You are sorta vague,I'm not sure I follow? Are we not all entitled to our own opinions?
 
 NOW you gotta admit,THAT was funny!!!..............

Well,I can stand most of it EXCEPT the snobs.Examples-
 
 a)"Classic" snobs.Everything is Mausers and pre-64 Winchesters and fine walnut.Fine,I like those too.BUT,they say your "------" (enter in Weatherby,Remington,ect.)is a peice of crap only packed by the inexperienced and unknowing.
 
 b)"Custom" snobs.If you didn't slap down $6,000 for your rifle (sans scope),that feed plot whitetail is gonna jump in the campe......I mean stand and kick the crap out of you.I know cuz my riflemaker told me.
 
 c)"CRF" snobs.That mule deer is gonna shove that push feed up your ass boy.I know cuz Paul Mauser told me.
 
 d)"Long range" snobs.Ha!400 yards?I don't even start shootin at them till they get out to bout 1500.Makes things more interesting.
 
 e)"Short range" snobs.300 yards!?!You ain't a hunter.You need to close enough to grab em by the gonads before you shoot em.I know cuz that's what Craig Boddington told me.
 
 f)"German optics" snobs.If it ain't from Germany,it's worthless.It'll shift POI when ya sneeze.Trust me-I called a guy named Hanz and he said something in German about the scope.I don't speak German but it sounded positive.
 
 g)"Double rifle" snobs.That cape buffalo is going to tap dance on your spine if you don't use a double.Anything less than $10,000 and that buff will laugh.I know cuz that's what Capstick told me over Jack Daniels at Safari Club.He was drunk so I know he was tellin the truth.
 
 h)"Weatherby hater" snobs.Those ugly ass Weatherbys are only shot by pansy movie stars and inexperienced young kids who don't know what they're doing.They're gaudy with that 45 degree angle forend tip.Now excuse me,while I sight in my ROLL ENGRAVED Remington 700.
 
 i)"Magnum" and "Premium bullet" snobs (they go hand in hand).Yeah,I shot my elk with my 300 RUM with a "------" (enter Swift A-Frame,Trophy Bonded,ect.).Hit him in the ass and it came out his nose.Then it shot through a 12 inch green pine.I found the bullet the following summer in Idaho,and I shot the elk in Montana!
 
 j)"Standard caliber" snobs.You magnum shooters just use em cuz yer light in the pants.Ain't a thing on God's green earth that I can't kill with my 270.I know cuz Jack O'Connor told me in a dream.
 
 k)"Trophy hunter" snobs.Yeah,he's 38 inches wide and 26 inches tall.I know cuz while my guide was cutting it's throat,I had the tape on him cuz they start shrinkin real fast dontchaknow?You shot a 26 incher eh?You gotta let those ones grow up.I know cuz that's what my guide told me.
 
 l)"Real hunter" snobs.I've shot 31 elk off horseback-bare back of course.Scopes and bolt actions are for the big city wussys who pay me to give em a hard time on the internet.I don't shoot nothin but iron sighted lever guns.Anyone who can't hunt with one of them is a sissy.You come hunt with me you better be wearin nothin but yer skivvys in that snowstorm,cuz if I see you wearin a coat I'm gonna take a picture of your wussy ass and post it all over the internet.And while yer freezin yer gonads off,bein a real man,you better be smilin and whistlin the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
 
 And if you whistle it out of tune,your a wussy.
 
 WB.

Spike, you just made my morning, I thought it was just me, Don Knows,(Speed Kills), gets the same reaction from me.
 It's hard to say anything good about any of his posts. -- no
 
 OH Yeah, just read Wheelchair Bandits post, he's got a bent wheel on his chair cause he just ran over everybodys toes that posts on any hunting board.:) Surely he knows anyone can kill anything with a 270. Might have to stick the barrel in the ear then pull the trigger but it will get the job done with no problem. Saw Jack do it many times while drunk and writing an article with left hand.
 
 Thanks Blaine, I like this thread except when Rick writes all that stuff I can't understand.

Bandit,
 
 THAT was really good. (Love the way you can point the finger inwards too.... [Linked Image]

)
 badger

Bandit
 
 I agree with you. Some of us old farts remember what things were like when Weaver was the only affordable scopes.
 
 It seems to me if you read the threads it is easy to tell the economic means and the relative age of the the poster. Of course some posts are from those who only have means in their head.

Let me narrow "bug" to "grieve" and widen "these posts" to "these days."
 
 What "bugs" (grieves) me most nowadays is the flagrant deterioration in typical attitudes toward quality and correctness. It is not the collapse of our national mastery of the language, per se (vocabulary, pronunciation, spelling, punctuation) that grieves me most, but the pervasive attitude of apathy or even hostility toward accuracy, correctness, etc. When professional users of the language repeatedly show that they don't care, no one should be surprised to see the same apathy evident in these posts.
 
 Even the pros these days don't place any value on skillful use of the language. The greater problem is that this apathy slops out onto other aspects of life -- the distinction between fact and opinion, for example -- the preference for entertainment and antipathy toward learning -- -- -- -- [unless you're hopelessly lost in the depths of this privy pit, you know what I mean.]
 
 Ironically, it seems that the ones who're most antagonistic toward the notion that they should strive for correctness, precision, and quality in their own thinking, expression, and output are quickest to complain about problems they encounter in the products of others -- from rifle bullets to rifles to articles about rifles, for example.
 
 In schools today, few know their subjects well enough to teach our young well -- because the teachers in today's schools were similarly short-changed by their teachers when they were kids. As the entire third grade (for example) in Mrs Ida Muntz's one-room elementary school in the 1930s, I had ALREADY been taught much that the average adult person on this and similar boards is woefully ignorant of. And I wasn't alone among the 25 to 30 kids there. Mrs Muntz, of course, taught us more -- despite having to teach six elementary grades one by one each school day.
 
 We aren't headed for enslavement as a result. We're enslaved already, because the two elements that grieve me so (poor knowledge and apathetic attitude) have so crippled our ability to think that we're easily manipulable by unprincipled string-pullers.
 
 I see repeated, abundant evidence on this and other boards every day. It always leaves me inexpressibly sad -- especially given the obvious fact that so many of The Good Ol' Boys here are endowed with better brains than the "food" fed their brains for so many modern generations.
 
 The situation -- not this post -- should make us all at least sad, at most angry. I get too sad to stay angry very long. The inevitable response to this expression of my personal grief -- "I don't see what Ken's so worked-up about, and I don't care" -- perfectly exemplifies the deplorable situation that I've been trying so awkwardly to describe.

Hell, don't fuss about means, I means well!
 
 I am lucky enough to come from a large hunting and shooting family and have lots of hand-me-downs. I'd probably be using a sharp stick if it wasn't for that! Oh, I did buy the Griffin & Howe 30-06 at a gun show, the guy didn't know what he had and I didn't educate him, just gave him a few bucks for the old "Polish Mauser" (his description, not mine) with the funny scope on it (Lyman Alaskan All Weather on a G&H side mount!)
 
 On a serious note, I like the exchange and camaraderie here, even the Texans are nice! LOL [Linked Image]

Really, this is one of two boards I go to that maintains a pleasant atmosphere and air of civility 99% of the time, a very rare thing in the anonymity of cyberspace. Rick has provided a fine place to relax and enjoy fellowship with folks of the same interests.
 
 Yep, I been in a couple of peeing contests as well, but rather skip what don't interest me or bothers my sensibilities than fuss. I don't know it all and appreciate others ides and experiance, not to mention most of my enjoyment of the outdoors is now limited to reading and enjoying others stories and experiances
 
 Thank's guys and gals!

I think the type of post that I like the least are the "This vs That" post. The most ridiculous being 270 vs 280 Remington or 300 Win Mag vs 300 WSM and the like. These type of posts rarely invite a decent discussion. It usually turns into a flaming pissing contest. I avoid any topic that has "vs" in the title.
 
 
 ZM

Interesting that someone brought up snobs. My pet peeve is the "leo" snobs on the optics board. everytime someone asks a question about a scope the answer is allways the same. leo. I respect the fact that they like leos and use nothing else. I happen to like elites. Not everyone wants/needs/can afford a leo. It seems, at least to me that everytime someone suggests a scope brand other than leo that they rush to attack that brand in favor of their brand. tom

What Bugs me the most are the people who's main goal is to start arguments and pissing contests. I've come to find out they're on every board on the net. Just can't understand how some people can be so bored that they are that entertained by starting and trying to win arguments on the web.

All of the above explains why I read a great deal more than I type.
 
 Bob

What really galls me about this place is the total lack of discussion of the band Foghat.

Gad Tom, you just brought up MY PET PEAVE, you just used initials, "leo", short for LEOUPOLD, " the scope".
 My first thought was, "LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER".
 
 I hate it when people use LETTERS or INITIALS to save typing and I am not familar with what the initials mean.
 Kinda like reading someone elses military orders.
 I HATE IT, I HATE IT, I HATE IT!!! Just like my signature -- no

You meant to say Grand Funk, didn't you?

Naw he meant The Guess Who, a good Canadian band. [Linked Image]

Pretty much YOU GUYS ALL BUG ME!@!@!!!!
 
 You keep me distracted for hours at a time while I'm at work...When I'm at home I stay up late reading because you left coast guys come on late...when I get off the road after a trip I have to spend hours and hours trying to read what I missed....On top of all of that I have to deal with the disproving of many of my preconceived notions and gunrag hype!!!
 
 !@#$% I hate this place [Linked Image]

Mike...now leave me alone I have to go over to the optics board and read that blasted long thread now!! Probably will miss lunch over it [email]too....@!#$%^[/email]

For me, I think Bandit nailed it best. All of us fall into one or more of his catagories sometimes. I was alternatley laughing at the description and thinking "I've done that" the whole way through.
 
 Sometimes we forget that each of us may have a different way of looking at the same topic. Sometimes we over-react to what others all telling us. The way we read things aren't always the way they were ment to be taken. Heck, we're all human, and bound to take something the wrong way, or put it the wrong way.
 
 Don't get me wrong. This is the only board I follow regularly. I have visited many, posted on a few, but the Campfire is home. We've got a great group of guys here, and the information and tips passed on are worth way more than any gun-rag magezine anywhere. There are many on here that I consider friends, even though I've never met them. Some aint even on the same continent.
 
 Rickster deserves a big attaboy for keeping the place going. And for allowing tiffs to straighten themselves out. I've seen some who moderate the hell out of boards. There have only ben a couple guys who got waxed here, and each case was well deserved.
 
 Every now and then there's bound to be a little flame war. Even best friends don't always agree, and when reading a post, we dont see body language. Somethings are bound to be misconstrued.
 
 I've been here almost two years now. I've seen a few flame wars, but very few flaming a--holes. I've been involved in some, but hold no grudges. We're all bound to disagree sometimes.
 
 And I've never been involved in a flame war that I wasn't absolutley, beyond the shadow of a doubt, no ifs ands or buts, 100% dead right. [Linked Image]

Niether has anybody else.
 7mm

Opinions are like butts, everyone has one, and they all stink, except mine.
 
 I think we have turned into a very rude society, overall, I find that in every walk of life. We are not willing to put our point across without taking out our frustrations on others. Especially when it can be done from behind a keyboard or microphone.
 Look at the total lack of respect shown for age and experience by most young people. I guess we were taught differently, even if you thought someone older was a total boob, you didn't tell them to their face, YOU JUST SAID YES SIR OR NO SIR AND WENT ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS.
 I don't know about you folks, but my opinions about my "hobby" of hunting and shooting have taken several dramatic direction changes over the course of 30 years. Things I felt very strongly about 5 years ago seem totally off track now.
 I feel that if you want the opinion of others ask for it. If you don't like that opinion, ignore it.
 I guess what I don't like is people mucking up my search for information with wierd personal opinions, lets face it, opinions are not by definition FACT!
 Lets remember that fast, slow, big bore, small bore, cf or pf, cheap glass or expensive glass, on and on ad nauseum,
 WE ALL OBVIOUSLY LIKE FIREARMS AND THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THAT ARE SPENDING THEIR EVERY WAKING MOMENT TRYING TO FIGURE HOW TO TAKE THEM FROM US!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 Now, is LEUPY vs ZEISS more important than that??????
 
 BTW, he actually ment Creedence Clearwater, right?

More to the point of the initial post and the thread now --
 
 I can think of only one thing about this forurm that really bugs me -- I mean REALLY bugs me, permanently beyond all hope of full remedy.
 
 Its simply this -- here, I barely meet a grand bunch of gunfolk whom I can not sit down with, in person, here or elsewhere, for some good gun talk and better listening. This unsatisfiable yearning for closer, longer fellowship with YOU GUYS and others of "our kind' is one of the driving urges to get the Powley Center up and running -- where every day will be "Howdy! Light down 'n' set a spell. How do you like your coffee?" -- the Powley Center library, lab, range, and tunnel will be right there, ready to settle many questions and disputes -- each Saturday will be Open House, each weekend a swap meet.
 
 To whatever extent this dream is possible and will become reality, it will only partially alleviate or ameliorate what will undoubtedly continue to bug me about this forum.

Ken
 I agree exactly with the feeling that something is missing, yet fortunately, and at the same time unfortunately, we don't all live in the same zip code...
 
 Will take you up on that cup of coffee... some day!
 art

Mike, I have to ask, what's a "kahuna"?? Hope it's not what I think! I have heard people in the past say,"kiss my kahuna", and Rick has hung that on our name. -- no

I hate all of you! You can all go pound sand (sniff). You will never have as good of scope as me, shoot as far as me and I will never own a .270 anything! Def Leopard RULES, FogHat is a dope head, the .30-06 is still king as long as it has a Leupold on top and "regular" bullets in the belly. Outfitters are animal whores and gun writers are arm chair whores. Oh, and so whut if I kan't spel (a little rib for Ken as well [Linked Image]

). Tongue firmly in cheek [Linked Image]

Flinch

That dang Rick Bin bugs me....Acts like he owns the place.

Give me VanHalen not that watered down VanHagar!
 
 There are enough gents,from enough different locales,that this place should be a non-stop ScreamFest. But it surely isn't. That is what's neat. Good info,of often wayyy differing opinion,openly gets pushed to and fro. I believe the casual observer could pinch some pretty good info,right regular,without muttering a word. There is enough diversity,that most every itch gets scratched. A melting pot,if you will.
 
 About the only thing I can recall that humps me up,is some takin' cheap shots at gents I have much respect for. That dog won't Hunt(ever).................

Lewis:
 
 Dang, You are right on, I thought I was the only one that noticed that.
 Him sitting there lording over the multitudes sipping his Glenfiddich and smoking his Stogies, all high and mighty, the gaul of some people.
 Does make you think he owns the place doesn't it. [Linked Image]

Bill

What bugs me.....
 
 Seeing the rifles and equipment you guys have, your UPS delivery girls [Linked Image]

, (we have postman Pat!!), the prices you pay and the places you shoot, the stock painting expertise of Mr Bin..... H380 at $16 a pound... ALL this out of my reach because of a stretch of water .. and when I do endeavor to get my mitts on kit the VAT man and customs and excise take another wedge out of my wallet [Linked Image]

I had a coat from Cabellas this year and had to pay an extra �60 ($90US) in charges, it makes me mad, you guys have it good, ~
 
 Big Stick ... how can you flaunt so much hardware in front of my eyes, have you no shame?? [Linked Image]

To sum up, nothing really bugs me about the Campfire it's just so damn far from home.
 
 Iraq is boiling up again ~ that bugs me more than the opinion of a faceless nameless scope snob or a super long range mouse shooter.....
 
 I'm glad I found this place ~ you're a great bunch !!
 
 Jim

Some of us are pretty good, then you have us Canucks, what can I say, cream of the crop. [Linked Image]

As for the costs of Cabellas, would it be cheaper if a contact in the states bought it for you and shipped it as a gift, so there would be no record of you buying it?
 Bill

Logstove, com'on over! Better you than the rag-heads they let in to do God knows what. There's a house 4 sale right across the road.
 
 But I won't help you move your stuff! [Linked Image]

My truck don't do so good under water.
 7mm

Rick,
 
 After reading you longer thread a couple times, it appears that you are 100% in agreement with me, which is always what I have thought.
 
 In case you have missed this before, without a doubt this is the finest Internet Forum there is, and a huge part of that is becuase of how you run it.
 
 I too think we have a realitively small number of pissing contests, but my goal is ZERO. We lose so much when we start peeing instead of posting..............
 
 Blaine

Blaine,
 
 Human nature being what it is, your goal of ZERO is never going to happen! The world will keep going round and round though. [Linked Image]

George

van what?
 
 gimme clapton or, crosby, stills and nash, any day!!!! neal young, go home!!!!!!
 
 i get a little bored with the endless recounting of meaningless data, until i need it.......
 
 i really like the give and take on what's best for a particular use........ i'm still looking for the magical rifle.... the all around rifle....
 
 I agree with Ken that something's been lost, along the way. I also perceive that other things have been gained. I do understand, i think, that he is not just bemoaning our ability to spell, or type. I imagine that I detect a yearning for a sense of community purpose. A sense of destiny, perhaps. The American way, as it were.... I would cheer him with the thought that God is still in heaven, and the stars, still on the course set for them.
 
 i am alarmed and perplexed at the state of education across our nation. i am thrilled at the thought that my sons kindergarten teacher has instilled in him a zest for learning. made all the more precious by his learning disabilities. 30 years ago he would have been just a dummy, in the back of the classroom. today he is a fighter for knowledge, and an inspiration, to those who know him......... john w

Bill,
 
 That would certainly work the only thing I need now is a friend and a shopping list....
 
 The list is easy, I'll just take the 'Need One' approach.. .
 
 but I think I'll wait till Big Stick has a garage sale... I want the [color:red]pink one.... [Linked Image]

Jim

Hall Moniters bug me the most. Get a group of men together with the same hobbies and there will be arguments. Thats just part of being a human male. But I do think people should move on easier without holding looong grudges. dempsey

Post deleted by Muleskinner

Dang I didn't know I was hanging around a bunch of hippies [Linked Image]

Mike

"The notion of respecting what that person chooses, rather than attacking them... strikes me as gentlemanly, sophisticated, intellectual even. That doesn't mean you can't challenge the notion, but there is a respectful, dignified way to challenge and question..."
 
 Well said, Rick, a fine ideal and lived up to by most here most of the time. We have an unusually fine forum of courteous, knowledgeable gentlemen here, from boardrooms to isolated cabins. As in my "real" life, I prize my friends from both ends of that range. Actually, little on this forum bugs me, and I simply avoid those who are consistently unpleasant to be around, as I would in person. Aside from a few provocateurs, the slide into emotion that occurs sometimes in exchanges usually puzzles me, but I think it is due to some inner defense toward a sense of threat. The more a person knows about a subject, and the more sure he is of the facts, the more relaxed and less threatened he is during any discussion in that field, however harebrained.
 
 Every time a person writes, he always tells you more about himself than he does about the subject. (That sentence includes women, for those moderns unfamiliar with English grammar.) Thank you to most of you for good company and for sharing excellent information in your areas of specialty, which have benefitted me in the form of venison steaks in my freezer, better handloads and other equipment.
 
 Alas, I also spend time here I should be putting on other things sometimes, and may have to take a sabbatical from the forum for a project I need to work on, to escape your entertaining and informative distractions.

Most of the "debates" are just folks disagreeing in a good natured way. I enjoy most of them. I just don't like folks being mean. Simple as that.
 
 Pretty much everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. With that perspective, things seem to be easier to digest.
 
 Spike???? You crack me up!

I think you have us all pegged. [Linked Image]

Good. That way I won't reach it and then have to find a more difficult goal to attain [Linked Image]

Blaine

Foghat?Grand Funk Railroad?VanHalen??????
 
 You boys is seriously lackin in muzical tastes.I'll take Clapton,The Allman Brothers Band (ORIGANAL line up or the mid-90s line up with Warren Haynes and Dickey Betts-all the rest stink IMO),BB King,Robert Johnson,Muddy Waters,er Jeff Beck (who,BTW,is an avid bowhunter).
 
 WB.

Watchin' Slow Hand in Concert as we "speak" on Direct TV. So far it is a Good 'Un,he's all acoustic,thus far................

This is BAD,the old farts talking about bands,those are the bands of my youth.hmmm......I don't bother with some posts.What sometimes annoys me are posts that wander off the topic,as in : Any 264 Pet Loads ? a couple of posts then some one chips in how a 270 will do any thing a 264 will,only without the bark and bite,now we have a discussion on the 270 versus the 264.You open up and see four new posts,guess what, it's 270 on elk not IMR7828,H-1000 or AA8700.Oh well sometimes that 's interesting,too.

AFP and others, I am not eaisly annoyed and you darn well better remember that [Linked Image]

I do enjoy a good old fashioned pissing contest right up until they go from being informative to being personal. There are a few folks I wish would go away and most have and many who have left that I would like to see back such as E4E and Cuzzin Mitch. Along with Talker and Waders and most all the Shooters refugees. I am not a gun snob so long as the vast majority of you out there know that the finest guns in the world are all owned by me every thing else is just...well just a gun. As far as scopes go I can do anything with my Tasco that you can do with your Leopould [Linked Image]

and did I mention my dog well she is the finest....oh damb what was that I just stepped in?
 
 Bullwnkl.

Jim,
 
 Somehow you reminded me of something- The thing I really hate is when someone comes into a thread and completely changes the subject. Like talking about aliens, or floppy red clown shoes, or something silly like that. Thank goodness I've never been guilty of THAT! [Linked Image]

- Sheister

What bugs me?
 
 having to read a thread that is 48 posts long in one sitting!
 
 not being able to 'hang out' with many people I have gotten to know on this board because of distance and a lack of funds on my part.
 
 learning something interesting and new each time I log on. I really really wish you guys would just rehash the same info as the gun rags! [Linked Image]

listening to how good "abc brand" bullet is because everyone swears by them, then trying them and liking them too...then wishing I didn't because I cannot afford them...
 
 and finally, reading posts that have NO HUMOR in them!

Stick,
 Uh huh,and I bet you didn't record it for me either didja?Lazy sumbitch. [Linked Image]

;D
 
 BTW,one of the discs you are getting is the new Clapton live double album from his 2001 world tour.Half acoustic,half electric.
 
 WB.

Now that is one of the funniest posts I have read in a long time!!!
 
 HogWild

Bandit,
 
 Should a VHS copy be of interest to you,it is DONE. Currently that concert is playin' 24/7.
 
 I can take a hint(grin)............

My pet peeve is everyone using the phrase "In my opinion" over and over and over till I can't stand it. Other substitutes are IMO, IMHO, JMHO, JMFO, etc. Heck, your typing. We know it's your opinion!!! Why restate the obvious.......again and again and.........
 
 I agree that there is something missing when you haven't actually met the guys that post here. You almost feel like you know them a little. One of these days we just need to have a big "get together". A real "campfire gathering" to spark the "virtual campfire". And we might as well have a balloon shoot while we're at it. I'll bring coffee!
 
 HogWild

'Wild,
 
 In my opinion,your mileage may vary,though that's just my opinion,which I'm forced to opine from.(grin)................

WTFYTAW?

I see your point HogWild, IOW I do understand what you are trying to say. BWTFWIK, but then that is JMHO, what really gets me too is the way some talk with too much of an acent,IMWUWT? Anyway TTFN and I am looking forward to TGIF.
 Bill

Put the stick in a little deeper and stir the $hit up. LMAO
 
 (that was damn funny....only my opinion of course)

Stick,
 I would be just tickled pink if you'ld make a VHS recording of it and sent it to my poor Kalifornian ass.Consider it ample over-payment for the discs I'll soon be sending you.
 
 If you weren't so ugly,I'd kiss ya. [Linked Image]

WB.

I've been tearin' stuff up,lookin' for my missin' VCR remote! If not found(and it AIN'T likely at this point),I'll have Momma buy a new clicker in the AM and get to tapin'.
 
 It was a good Concert,with a good representation of past and present work. I think you'd much like it............

Stick,
 Much obliged-more than you think.Live Clapton on film is a rare thing.I can count on one hand how many I've found.
 
 Would also be tickled beyond belief,ifn you could send along a tape or two of your hunting exploits.Both me and Dingus would enjoy that to no end.
 
 Ifn you like guitar playing,the discs I am sending ought to be your cup of tea.You can directly compare the playing of Duane Allman to Warren Haynes,as they're both playing with the same band,just 30 years apart.Both are smokin.Of course,Gregg is top notch.Musta been sober.
 
 Oh they say that payback is double fold
 Just can't seem to remember who I bought and sold
 
 WB.

I'se agreen wit u skinner, everbody knows whet wer sayin anyhows and lil things like lanquage and pernuncieation, hell thats jus all a bunch of hog waller. Don forgit the spellin, jeesh the speelin. gooooooly, you shure talk purty skinner, I'll bets you got a purdy mouth too!!!

What grieves me is other people post articles in the hopes of proving that they are better, or smarter than the rest of us.
 By using correct grammar and punctuation they feel that they are above all the lowlifes out there that enjoy coming on here and having their say. I do believe it's in our constitution, the part about free speech, but I don't recall anything that says free speech is only allowed if you know correct grammar and perfect punctuation. I'm far from perfect when it comes to grammar and such, but I do feel that I get my point across. I dont spend most of my day in front of a computer as I know many on this forum do. I have a life to live and things to do that are far more important than listening to people "greive" . Or maybe its "whine" ? I'm not really sure at this point.
 
 Regards
 John

"By using correct grammar and punctuation they feel that they are above all the lowlifes out there that enjoy coming on here and having their say."
 What a combination of idiocy and calumny!
 
 I use correct grammar and punctuation because (a) that's the way I was raised, (b) it's easier than striving to write aberrantly, (c) it's easier and clearer for others to read, (d) it's courtesy in practice.
 
 By equating correctness with snobbery, you've just shown us all by crystalline example that YOU are the utlimate snob. You've expressed a snooty judgement of careful writers as you accuse us of attitudes and intentions that do NOT drive us to write as we do. You have expressed the attitude that you accuse us of, which you assume is our motivation but isn't. You've implied -- quite inaccurately -- that you know our inner minds, while at the same time you've TOLD us your own.

I used to let myself get upset at some posters but I don't anymore. Now days nothing bothers me, bothers me, bothers me. [Linked Image]

If I find that a post or poster is starting to shake my chain I just skip over it and every thing is fine. Besides that there is an old saying that helps: Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
 
 BCR

"Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
 
 Excellent, Boggy! Thanks! (I needed that.)
 
 Somewhat along the same line of thought, it has just occurred to me that anyone who's incapable of feeling any given motivation is to some degree certain to misjudge it -- almost always negatively. The person who's incapable of any honorable or truly altruistic urge is inevitably certain to distrust and condemn such urges as if they were the mean, low, bestial urges that his impoverished mental portfolio comprises -- only worse, since they're not "honestly" overt or candid.

Ken, one of the first things you are taught in teaching or orating is NEVER talk over their level!
 Don't you know I'm dumb to big words hooked together like some of the young guys visiting this campfire? For me please watch the seldom used or heard words. They may be nothing for you but some of us pore folk can read Muleskinner without a dictionary.:) Glad to hear you are better and back posting again. Don't wan't to clutter this thread so will post to you up the way. Thanks, -- no

Occasioanlly I'll come across a word I'm not familiar with. I get annoyed with myself for not knowing it and look it up.

Along the same lines, "consider the source" are always good words to keep in mind. An idiot telling you you are an idiot shouldn't bend you out of shape!

In forty-several years of both teaching and public speaking, I've never been told to talk DOWN to people as my "inferiors." Here and elsewhere, I speak and write to one and all as the equals (and above) that I always assume that you are (collectively and individually). My hair is down all the time (and swept off the floor many years ago <vbg>). Intentionally "talking down" to anyone is insulting. Besides, simple candid conversation should consist of whatever comes easily and naturally to one's lips from and through natural, unstudied, unpretentious thought. I can't possibly guess the limits or contents of any ONE other person's working vocabulary. I'd certainly have to struggle long and hard to converse with anyone in grunts and mumbles, even if it were possible. The desired absence of snobbery in ordinary human discourse includes both my easy, willing, automatic acceptance of others' ways of speaking, writing, and thinking -- and others' acceptance of mine. My acceptance of others' ways is deeply ingrained. It's who I am. Apparently and unfortunately, I'm finding that I'm not considered worthy of the same level and degree of respect in this regard that I automatically extend to others.
 
 I'm often accused of being "out of touch." But it's hard for me to see how, by being aware and conscious of the same and MORE than another, I'm LESS "in touch" than he is.
 
 The words we use come from and stand for the thoughts that we use. Having "a way with words," then, is facility with thoughts. I feel no obligation to apologize for, or to abandon, thinking that blesses me but doesn't interest anyone else.
 
 What this all comes down to, once more, is the deep, unmistakable, inescapable feeling that I don't belong here. I'm not ready to act on this feeling by going off somewhere to build my own lonely campfire, but that's the way adverse criticism of my natural, personal modes of thinking and expression affects me. I find it eerily strange and mystifying that Muleskinner's admittedly contrived style, which looks for all the world to me like talking down to others as perceived "inferiors," should be held up as a desirable model of expression -- preferable to my eye-to-eye, man-to-man, equal-to-equal style.
 
 If I didn't fully respect everyone here as my peer or better, I wouldn't assume (as I do) that you're able to read and understand what I write, the way I write it (if you're interested in it at all). So I wouldn't write my thoughts here for your consideration in the first place.

demps,
 
 Guilty of same,now and again. I find it odd that some think their not being literate,is SOMEONE else's fault.
 
 My biggest trouble,is my very poor typing skills. Due to that,I'll make mistakes,that should have not been made(though I generally proof every Post I submit)and that is frustrating because I know better. Though certainly not educated,I care enough about the language we use,to try and communicate clearly with it's use. I figure it's only fair,to those trying to cypher those thoughts.
 
 I tend to over punctuate sentence structure,and it suprises me,that folks are gracious enough to let that glaring "no-no" slide. Perhaps it is because my speech patterning differs from other's and that is the context I apply to my text? Who knows.
 
 As far trying to make one's written word sound just as stupid as humanly possible,via guttural grunts,botched words and 1st grade sentence structure(favored here,by others,who are incensed one can't legally Marry blood kin)that impresses me none.
 
 No shame in bein' who you are,though much shame in poor acting.................

Great Question - What bugs me the most is challenging the ivory tower types on the Internet. I have seen some fairly intelligent folks (who apparently possess little practical experience) regurgitate some really dumb theories regarding a wide range of subject matter.
 
 However, if you dare challenge them and their dumb notion, then you�re instantly attacked not only by the ivory tower type but also by their blind followers. Several have developed an omnipotent ego that cannot tolerate to be questioned. The day that you think you are too smart to be questioned is a sad day indeed.

Ken, I have never thought you were talking up or down to anyone. It is refreshing to see true English in use and forces me to regain some of my "learning" from days past, thank you for sharing you wealth of experiance and knowledge here with us.
 
 As to the "opinion" thing, we all should be aware of the simile to a certain anatomical part of the body it is often compaired to!
 
 I choose to ignore those that offend "MY" sensabilities and not engage in verbal Judo, keeps my blood pressure in the desirable range. I will always start out with respect and expect it in return, that failing I will simply disengage.
 
 My opinions are mine and those of others are theiers, I will neither force mine upon them nor allow the reverse to take place.
 
 In close, you are a refreshing breath of fresh air far more often than not IMHO.

Ken:
 If you decide to build your "own lonely campfire", I doubt that you'll be lonely for long.
 In recent years it has become fashionable to speak in the manner of the uneducated or undereducated (this includes school teachers!). Unfortunately, those that have chosen to adopt this style of speech don't realize that they are doing more damage by their example.
 I have heard it said that "profanity is the result of a weak mind attempting to express itself forcefully". I believe that that rule can be applied to those that resort to insults rather than a well thought argument.

Ken,
 
 I like to read your posts and I'd gladly read more if you'd write more! I've learned a few words, like "calumny", that I wouldn't have know if I hadn't first read them in your post.
 
 I have learned, and continue to learn, from the brothers of the campfire. I have learned a lot from you, 'Stick, Mule Deer, and a number of others. There are a few folks who I find annoying, for a variety of reasons, but I'm equally sure that the reverse is also true.
 
 I do think that, over time and after reading the body of a person's written work, you can tell who is knowledgeable in certain areas and who is making it up as he/she goes along.
 
 Respectfully,
 
 Bearrr264

Stick
 I perceive your (long-noted) polysyndetation as an overt attempt at increasing clarity; an admirable trait in your role as 24hr apocrisiary.
 
 Aristotle listed seven moral virtues and eutrapely (pleasantness in conversation, not usually found in abridged dictionaries) was one of them. And just this morning I saw where you had proved you possessed it with a posted peace offering!
 
 Ken
 Sadly, your attempt at expergefaction will likely go unheeded by those you were attempting to reach. Everyone's loss. I very much enjoy your posts and frequent phrase turns! Please keep them coming!
 art

I have always read alot. When I was young, if I encountered a word I didn't understand, I would ask my Dad, and he would tell me to look it up. It got to the point where I would sit down to read with a dictionary next to me, and now I have a fairly decent vocabulary. I still look up unfamiliar words, as I encounter them almost daily. Many just ignore them.
 
 These internet forums are a source of entertainment for most of us, but I personally believe it is preferrable to learn something while being entertained, than to simply be entertained.
 
 I would much rather read a post like Ken's than a post by someone who likes to write in accents as a matter of course, like Muleskinners'. I find that style irritating to read and I cannot see that it serves a purpose other than to gain some sort of reaction from readers.

Art,
 
 I believe I speak for many at the campfire when I say, huh?
 
 Is this what happens when you misplace your monosyllabic dictionary and pick up your chemistry reference by mistake? [Linked Image]

- Sheister

Ahhhhhh...Once again the depth of the Board,conitinues to impress me.
 
 Am thankful that those steeped in English and it's use,have continually spared my repeated errors(some purposeful,others actual blunders).
 
 I try to be thoughtful to my fellow man and the peace offering was loaded with thought....................(grin)

Bob
 I can use those words and more, freely, yet generally don't. I expect Ken has a vocabulary to exceed or match mine. They sound contrived because simpler, or at least more common, words are available. Few of those will even be in a standard dictionary.
 
 My point, if I really have one, is that there are conversations at all levels going on all the time. Do you think "goo-gooing" for a baby does it any good in learning language? Might it do harm? Ken has stated eloquently why he feels, through respect for potential readers, the need to write clearly, and slighted by those not respecting him enough to return the honor.
 
 I was simply trying to show what pretentious word use sounds like when mixed with pedestrian language...
 art

Sound contrived? Nahhhhhh, not in the least. [Linked Image]

I agree with Ken on many levels but also recongnize that language not only needs to be clear, and succinct to be accurate, but also must be spoken on the same levels as the others in the group or it will sound pretentious. Besides, if a common word can convey the same meaning, why use a word that most will not understand, regardless of your superior vocabulary.
 While I find that when I talk to people knowledgable in my trade about electrical theory, I use one set of vocabulary that I wouldn't waste my time using with someone without the background to understand what I am talking about. I'm sure you and others do the same- much as language is bantied around here in a seemingly careless manner at times. That isn't meant to imply that contrived language is acceptable as a way to communicate just because someone might think it "cute". Any language that is a chore to decipher is bound to be eventually overlooked or ignored and the speaker (typist) as well.
 However, when humor comes into play in a reply, as it often does on these forums, all rules go away and all that is really needed to understand and appreciate it is a sense of humor- at least with most "humorous" posts.
 I find that the general discourse on these boards is usually cordial and understandable enough to be beyond criticism and only a few posters really post baffling vocabulary, punctuation, and meaningless drivel- either by design or by ignorance. The result is basically the same. It would seem that more would be accomplished and, therefore conveyed, if the proper structure and context of language was used. Good conversation doesn't flow easily from stilted language, be it typed or spoken.
 The more specific the subject, the higher the need for specificity and proper, clear description.
 Just my 2.5 Peso's worth- Bob

Big Stick,
 I consider you one the better writers on this forum because you are clear and easy to understand. My first rule of good writing is clarity. Spelling, grammar, punctuation and vocabulary all contribute to the reader understanding what he's reading as he reads, without struggle to decifer nonstandard spellings, ambiguous meanings, etc. Of course, it also helps when the writer knows what he is talking about ;-)
 
 I don't type especially well, and I don't always take the time to proof read as thoroughly as I would on a less relaxed forum, which imposes on all your forbearace a bit.

Boy oh boy, this is better than 30-06 vers 270 any day.
 Ken, sorry you took it so personal.
 Art, didn't know they talked that way "Up North In Alaska".
 Shiester, nice perception.
 no, why don't you behave?

Post deleted by Muleskinner

Ken,
 
 We all have our own priorities and preferences in how we write, speak, behave, and read. These priorities and preferences are influenced by our background, education, vocation, etc. To me the most important goal is "clear communication." I think your first goal is the same.
 
 I like direct, clear, simple words that accurately convey meaning. I prefer emotion to kept out when the purpose is to convey information. To me, the simpler the words, the better understanding the writer/speaker has of his topic. Also, correct grammer usually makes for easier understanding.
 
 Many folks post things to show off knowledge, prove they are smart, funny...whatever. I think most of us have been guilty of this a time or two. Some folks love the ebb and flow of the language, and choose words accordingly. Sometimes a person prioritizes this ebb and flow over clear communication, sometimes it's showing off knowledge, sometimes its' proving they are smaert and clever. To me, choosing anything other than clear communication as the first priority is a foul.
 
 I think your first priority is clear and precise communication. I think your next priority is correct grammar. I also think--based on your background as a writer--you enjoy the ebb and flow of the language, and as such craft your words to include this ebb and flow. However, you don't let this preference interfere with clear, precise communication and proper grammar.
 
 Anyway, that's my guess as to why you write as you do. Your writing is definitely worth reading, and I think the vast majority of us here feel that way.
 
 BTW, I don't belong here either, but since I'll never belong anywhere in this life, I might as well hang out with folks who share my hobby.
 
 Blaine

'skinner
 Sir, I understand your reluctance to speak the Queen's English, only question your orienteering skills in that you think you would need to lower your language standard to do so...
 art

Ken, right on. I only wish I were as elequent as you, if I try perhaps someday...
 
 Bullwnkl.

I think that everyone on this board is a society misfit. Me included. We are all different. But watch what you say about us Texans. You are likely to make one mad and he will only let you drink the pearl light beer a not the Budweiser. Just jokin, my friends.
 
 Hank Williams and the Drifting Cowboys if you please.
 
 
 Luke the Drifter if you want to cry in your beer.

Did that one lose anyone other than me?
 
 Sweetsue, might want to take it easy on them Buds for the rest of the night [Linked Image]

.

What bugs me most in posts is posts like this with nearly 100 responces griping about what bugs you and no one even mentions things like the percent of ash in dog food or filler in laundry soap, are not these things important to you guys. Or the real gripe of the time: Cheap imported duct tape. Man here is the invention of past fifty years and you guys let the imported stuff be called "Duct Tape" for shame. Schiester you are right the guys who change the subject are annoying.... [Linked Image]

Bullwnkl.

nothing

And one more thing....the finest guitar player ever to pluck a string with an insisor came from right here in the Pacific Northwest....The One....The Only....The Incoprable.... Jimi Hendrix. If you don't believe me just take a listen to "Little Wing"
 
 Bullwnkl.

Well you could say what bugs me is people that have "nothing" to say. [Linked Image]

Bill

Partsman, yeah I think I said it all...
 
 Bull...

Bullwnkl,
 I take exception too that.Hendrix ranks second in my book.The number one spot ties a bloke from London and a redneck from Georgia.
 
 If you don't belive me,just listen to a song called "Layla".You can hear both of them playing on that one.
 
 WB.

Ken, I say I apologize for the striking or your main nerve. I didn't realize a man of your supposed stature and importance would be so annoyed by a little ol' post. I sorry I brought you down to my level and forced you to resort to name calling and accusations of maliciousness. As for the looking down on people, and your posts and opinions telling the masses likewise. I am of the opinion that you reek of arrogance and snobbery.You may never have been taught to talk down to people, but thru all your teaching and writings, in my humble and absolutely insignificant opinion you do!!! As for your post to need one. What a bunch of pretentious poppycock. You are absolutely full of yourself , get over it and get a real life. By the way; most of us probably have spellcheck and grammar correct on our computers as I am sure you do. It probably is just not that important for the masses. I don' have proofreaders and editors at my disposal for help either when I come across a tough question or situation. These forums are mostly opinions. I will feel free to speak mine. If you don't like it, so be it. And quit your whining about Muleskinner.
 
 Regards
 John

AND I HATE people that make personal attacks........................reeks of TROLLISM! Some need to take their own advise and get a life themselves, 'nuff said!

Ihate, your handle aptly describes your nature, doesn't it? Why not just shorten it to "Ihate?" Hatefulness seems to be your most prolific quality. Go crawl back under your rock, but stay there this time! Let me guess, your "other" handle is Cuzzinmitch? If not, I hear he's looking for a boyfriend. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to hook the two of you up. You're a match made in hell!

Another thread succumbs to the tide of piss............

Ifn yer talkin' slow hand, he's ok, but you gotta give the blues boys their due. Stevie Ray Vauhn, Johnny Winters, early Hendrix (didn't like mos' the pop stuff he came out with after Band of Gypsys), all rate tops in my book. There's jus' too many good 'merican pickers. Them brits only try to copy the 'mericans anyhoo. What I wanna know is how come they don't have an accent when they sing?

And time for us to leave this thread alone and not respond to this crap.
 Time to ignore and let it die.
 Bill

Ihateelmer - A little advice... you are fighting gods of Internet fiefdoms and their subjects - it is a no win situation because no matter how correct you are, you will always be wrong in their eyes.

ZeroDrift, Ihate is simply being hateful and making personal attacks. If pointing that out is wrong, then I'm guilty as charged.
 
 Do you really think his "I hate" attitude is reasonable and appropriate?

Quite a collection of thoughts and opinions here. I'm impressed at some of the responses and laughed my opinion off at others.. All things being equal, I would like to offer a few addtitional..
 
 Between CCR and Three Dog Night, the tune side is pretty well covered.....
 
 As for snobs of any kind, I generally take pleasure in proving them wrong whether they are or not. (You can prove anything with numbers if you are willing to throw logic aside!)
 
 I have to agree with Ken, the biggest thing missing is looking into someones eyes to see what they really mean when the say something.
 
 Wheelchair Bandit probably has a better concept of the world than I do...
 
 Finally, to the original point, the thing that bothers me the most about boards in general, are folks who confuse logic and reason with emotion and sentiment. That seems to lead to more pissing contests than any of us care to get involved in, and we do nothing but get our shoes wet (provided your wearing shoes...).
 
 Let me close by wishing everyone here a Happy Holiday Season. May the light of fortune shine on all of you.
 
 [Linked Image]

-- on being proved wrong -- one of my favorite stories:
 
 Albert Einstein had just published his theory of relativity. In his homeland, the Nazis under Hitler got all a-tremble over the esteem and honors being shown this Jew in America. To pare him down, something like 120 Nazi scientists published a huge volume of essays attempting to disprove Einstein's theory. Asked to comment on this tsunami of negative "scientific" criticism, Einstein was calm and unruffled:
 
 "If I were wrong," he said, "one scientist would be enough."

Ha...That shows how smart and witty he really was...I like it!
 
 Mike

Ihate, attacking one of our most respected members is not a good way to make friends.
 
 This is turning into a big whizzing contest. The exchange of ideas and information is the purpose here. You're welcome to disagree with any one. Each is entitled to his own opinion, and that's fine. It'd be boring if we all agreed. But resorting to a personal attack only shows you to be a troll.
 
 Muley, while I agree with you in this case, a personal attack just drags everything into the mud. Lets all please mind our tongues and keyboards. We need to keep our emotions in check, or we end up looking like azzholes ourselves. Bar rooms are fine for such things. The Campfire is not.
 7mm

Not a bad anecdote, but almost certainly not true, at least in major details. Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity in 1905 and his General Theory of Relativity in 1915, after his incorrect 1914 version, along with multiple corrections later, since he was not the only one with pieces of the theory (Hilbert actually published the correct gravitational mathematics for the general theory of relativity 5 days earlier than Einstein) and probably wanted to get his in print first. Needless to say, this was long before the Nazis and Hitler. He received the Nobel Prize in 1921, but not for his theory of relativity,although that was probably a driving force, which, while current with the beginnings of the Nazi era was long before it's virulent anti-semitism was widely known.
 
 He later agreed to come to Germany to teach and work and did so with the proviso that he did not have to become a German citizen and subsequently fled (or more accurately did nor return to) Germany in 1933. Probably as a result of this period, although this is speculation, it was German scientists, working off of his theory, who discovered nuclear fission in 1938 and, alerted by anti-Nazi scientists, Einstein then wrote the critical letter to FDR which began the nuclear race which resulted in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

7mm, I'm sorry that I pissed you off over the "teacher" post. I somehow doubt you'd have made your post here, if it wasn't for that incident, though I'm probably wrong. We've typically got along before, so let's let that one drop, eh?
 
 My observation here is that (while you did a better job than I) it is still difficult not to appear to be an azzhole when you point out someone else's improprieties. Neither of our posts were really necessary as I believe that Ihate knew full well what he was doing and only doing it to get a rise out of you and I. Yet we both felt the need to respond. Hmmmm....
 
 Hopefully, you'll never see me initiating the kind of post that Ihate started. If so, please feel free to jump on my back and call me every name in the book. While my response to Ihate was pointless and, taken in isolation, may be construed as out of line, I still feel it was warranted. You're right, it could have been handled more eloquently, but the fact of the matter is, we humans are an emotional race. Sometimes they run positively, sometimes in the negative. At least, "I" did not call anyone an azzhole -- even though it was implied!
 
 I will NOT remove emotion from my tongue or keyboard. I'm not just here for the "information" but also for the comaraderie -- something you can't have without emotion. Without it, we'd have none of the light-hearted posts that are so common (and, to me, enjoyable).
 
 Your point is taken. What do you say we bury the hatchet and get back to the enjoyable aspects of this board?

I think Ihate just presented the ultimate answer to the question of this thread................... if his response was directed to someone who fit the description that would be different.......

I stand corrected on the matter of exactly what it was that the Nazi scientists were trying to discredit Einstein for. It may even have been somebody else who replied with that pithy answer that I've been quoting for decades since someone told me that anecdote. Blame my ramshackle memory for error in the ancillary details. I've been unable to find the story in print anywhere, so any of its ancillary details is certainly subject to the usual inaccuracies of hearsay communication as well as the usual greasy slippage of an old phardt's memory with the passage of time
 
 As your post proves so beautifully, the accuracy of the quoted line is crystalline-pure -- when one is wrong, ONE person with the straight skinny is enough to provide all the necessary correction -- without any necessity for emotion, accusation, calumny, name-calling, ad-hominem "logic," etc.
 
 So my sincere thanks, Charlie, for both the correction and the illustrative example of the anecdote's point.

Sorry, Muley. Consider the matter dropped, and check your PM.
 7mm

Post deleted by Muleskinner

'Skinner,
 Yup,I was refferin to Slowhand and Duane Allman.
 
 Now ya gotta give Eric his dues-he was the FIRST white blues guitarist that had his own sound.Like Allman said,"Eric wrote the book man-White Blues Guitarists Volume One".
 
 Ifn you think Hendrix or SRV is the best thing to come from stateside,you haven't heard Allman.That guy will blow your mind.NOBODY has matched his tone,intensity or enthusiasm.
 
 Pick up The Allman Brothers At Fillmore East and listen to Duane's solo at the end of In Memory Of Elizabeth Reed.
 
 WB.

from the American Heritage Dictionary, unabridged, on my hard drive:
 
 --- ancillary -- an�cil�lar�y (�n�s�-l�r��) adj. 1. Subordinate: �For Degas, sculpture was never more than ancillary to his painting� (Herbert Read).
 Also "supporting" or "secondary." In the anecdote that I posted, all the build-up to the quoted line "If I were wrong, one scientist would be enough" is ancillary to the quoted reply.
 
 --- communication -- com�mu�ni�ca�tion (k�-my��n�-k��sh�n) n. Abbr. com., comm. 1. The act of communicating; transmission. 2.a. The exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, signals, writing, or behavior. b. Interpersonal rapport.
 ... the purpose of every post here, I'd hope
 
 --- calumny -- cal�um�ny (k�l��m-n�) n., pl. cal�um�nies. 1. A false statement maliciously made to injure another's reputation. 2. The utterance of maliciously false statements; slander.
 The allegation that I use correct spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc, to show that I'm somehow "superior" to everyone else is calumny. Saying or writing it for others to hear or read is also calumny. The key elements of calumny are (a) it's false and (b) it's malicious.
 
 ad hom�i�nem (h�m��-n�m�, -n�m) adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.
 [Latin, literally "at the man," attempting to discredit the man's ability, knowledge, or position on a subject by discrediting him personally instead of dealing directly with his ability, knowledge, or position)
 "You can't believe anything he says about politics -- he's only a muleskinner" is an ad hominem "argument," for example -- or "he can't be any good as a hunter -- he sells insurance for a living."

7mm, PM'd you back. You're a good man and certainly not far off with your observations. Glad we have things sorted out!

'Skinner, my friend, (this may ruin your day!), you and I agree far more often than you might think. There are basically just two things that we don't agree on. The lesser of these two cross-threadings is the contrived convolution of your writing style (as I've already said quite enough about). That disagreement is too minor to fuss about.
 
 I consider and sense you as a thoughtful, intelligent fellow with a lot to say that'd be worth saying (and of course worth reading) if you didn't also load it down with your customary old dead albatrosses. What I'd really love to see you do differently should be very simple and easy for you -- just post what you have to say, in whatever style you like, (a) without telling us how great or honest or whatever you are and (b) without taking a swipe at others. You have good thoughts, capable of standing on their own. Let 'em stand but don't load 'em down.

Ken,
 
 Good advice for all of us. If we would "let our yes be yes and out no be no" (paraphrase) more often, much consternation would be avoided.
 
 Blaine

So glad the Christmas season is here and all us good friends are beginning to enjoy the season and each other. Don't think much at all is ever said in anger around here. Just more or less to get some conversation going. Have fun. -- no

(Out of fond deference to Charlie IIFID, I'll abstain from ascribing this -- another of my favorite quotes -- to any specific person. Wouldn't want to drive anyone into posting a long correction of details not crucial to the point! This probably applies directly to every person who posts here, too.)
 
 It's easier to write something down just the way it comes to mind, then let it go forth as-written, than it is to polish, correct, shorten, reread (etc) it to perfect it first. To a writer, to a careful pro, writing is rewriting. Drafts therefore are inevitably longer and more awkward by far than the finished product should become.
 
 Therefore experienced writers fully appreciate the apology appended to a very long piece of writing by some well known personage of the past -- approximately "I'm sorry this is so long. I don't have time to make it shorter."
 
 I can write my posts in simpler terms -- usually, in fact, I do go back over 'em to substitute simpler and clearer words for some of the longer, "hard" words I've initially used, before I poke that last button that puts 'em out there for you to see. But I don't have the time it'd take to spend an hour simplifying every line in a post, so out they go in what I figure you'll be able to read without undue strain.
 
 Writing is hard work for me, especially when I want what I write to be easy for you to read. It takes time.
 
 I guess I'll just have to take more time, to avoid burdening you unduly.
 
 ... or shut up altogether

Ken,
 
 Once again, well said. Look how long it took Hemingway to write "The Old man and the Sea."
 
 BTW, we'll take your "rough drafts." Please don't feel obligated to continually re-write. Few of the rest of us do.......... I have to do it at work, and I personally don't find reworking my words fun. If nothing else, this forum is supposed to be fun.
 
 Blaine

Ken, it saddens me to see such a great man, and mind, continually hint of, (picking up his marbles and going home), every time there is a hint of anything not of his liking.
 You are respected here by all and we all have our shortcommings. We have all been under fire from time to time, you are no exception. You are the celebrity here and naturally many try to pick at your writing. Perhaps being editor and grading writers work is coming home. You, like us, have no reason to go anywhere, besides Rick has already made a board just for you, what have you got to worry about? You should be used to some derogative remarks occasionally, welcome to the campfire, do like the rest of us, just back your log up a little, spit in the fire and enjoy every minute. -- no

Ihateelemerkeith had a lot of truth is some of his posts.

Post deleted by Muleskinner

Mule, Merry Christmas! Thank you for the Christmas present. Best to you at this season.

Way to go Skinner...very nice post.

Muleskinner - Much of what you say about simple people is true. Just how does a publisher cater to someone who is uneducated, maybe reads with difficulty, cannot afford or will not plunk down $15 a year for a magazine subscription, and really is not interested in what is going on in the rest of the world?
 
 There is another kind of enlightened simple people. They either became educated through the GI Bill, or failing that, worked thier *ss off so their kids could excel through education. Simple? Yes. Content? Yes. But they also realize that their kids may not be satisfied to live on the next block, or farm, if they had the ability and means to do something else.
 
 Regards and Merry Christmas, sse

'Skinner,
 GREAT post brother.I agree with you,110%.
 
 WB.

Nice compilation of personal philosophies, wit, incite and opinions, as usual and with a minimum of pizzin'n moanin'.
 If anything is more entertaining and useful than this assortment of old sages, smartarses and generally knowledgeable folks, I ain't found it yet. [Linked Image]

Then there's that on-goin' haggle over whom each person considers to be the best picker what ever played. How does that one always work it's way into a thread? Would have to be a bluesman, in my opinion. Whichever one you like best is fine with me.
 
 Enjoy the holidays and cherish your family and friends.
 dube

'skinner
 Bullshit! A more ignorant rant against bettering oneself would be hard to imagine. They resent kneeling before the educated elite and at the same time rebuke the very thing that brought the hated situation about?
 
 Talk about spite and ignorance in gargantuan proportions! Your perpetuation of such a ridiculous situation now borders on the pathetic. In case you didn't know, the run-of-the-mill "outdoors" magazine is written at about the 9th grade level. Most drop-outs should be able to read them.
 
 There is no secret in the fact the military continues to operate fairly smoothly in spite of, rather than because of, junior officers. Were it not for career enlisted men with talent and tolerance the whole military would implode in last than a week. The same is true in business to a very large extent, with a manager pushing buttons and hoping the latest experiment in "Productivity Weekly" works.
 
 The difference is that each level of any organization has a different set of directives and seldom do the people at one level understand the directives given to the levels above them. Rather than attempt to learn, if it were even possible, what the differences are they simply rail against those giving them the orders.
 
 Deriding the individual giving the orders based on the second thing that you resent about the person (the first being the fact HE is giving the orders) is proof positive of pure jealousy.
 
 Glorifying such a sad state of affairs is beyond me. My sister-in-law is from Taiwan and speaks passable English and feels badly she does not conjugate as well as she should. She over-looks the fact she can speak and write Mandarin, perhaps the hardest language to speak, as well as three other Chinese dialects (speakers of these dialects cannot speak their own dialect and converse with others using another) and Japanese, and German, and French. Do you think she resents the education others earned? She openly admits to jealousy, yet chooses to do something about it. It is called work.
 
 As a person with a lot of college time in and several degrees, do you think this concept is new to me? How do you think the resentfully kneeling look to "the dumb college boy?" Do you think they look like they want to learn why the directive makes sense?
 
 Do your people resent your obvious education, the fact you can write in complete sentences, conjugate a verb?
 
 Sorry for the rant, and I nearly deleted it out of thoughts of "just getting along" at Christmas and all that... but frankly I see someone who has some great insights, intellect and ability wasting it on the perpetuation of ignorance and intolerance.
 art

S d - Here, here!!!

Sitka,
 
 I much concur with your message.
 
 Going backwards is the poorest approach,in the hopes of moving forward. To purposely do so and blame it upon others,is something that will cause little in the way of either sympathy or understanding.
 
 It is an interesting concept,to think that the more purposely ignorant one becomes,the higher the sense of achievement..............

Post deleted by Muleskinner

"Getting it",was the easy part.
 
 You are busy with a bough,erasing your back tracks. You speak with forked tongue and that is not an aid either................

Stick
 Very nicely put. I could not have said it better. It would be a real struggle to say it as well.
 art

Now ya gotta give Eric his dues-he was the FIRST white blues guitarist that had his own sound.
 
 WB,IMO,thats why you can't really throw the really great guitarists in a heap and say "******* is/was the greatest",Hendrix, Allman,Clapton,SRV,all had their OWN sound and style.Apples and oranges again?Duane Allman will always be my favorite for what he did, Clapton, Stevie Ray,and Jimi?Those are completely diferent stories.Just to Muddy the Waters(hee,hee) a little more,how about the guitar Brujo from south of the border,Carlos Santana?He's cited BB King as one of his early influences and you may have to listen for it,but its there. I'm happy to see after all these years he's getting the attention and airplay he deserves AND to a whole nuther generation. I always said he just needed a vocalist,now he's got...you name it.Just another personal favorite.
 Jeff

Art,
 
 I know you are belittling anyone in the service, but I don't waht this to be forgotten. Without talented officers to set priorities and determine the direction, the military would excel at doing things that don't matter. The military is a team, from E-1 through O-10, and each has a vital role.
 
 There is a huge difference between leadership and managership. Both are vital. A manager (NCOs) tells the guys HOW to climb the wall. He knows all the procedures, techniques, and tricks to get his guys up that wall in the most effective manner. The job could not be done without him.
 
 A leader (officer) tells the manager which wall to climb. He knows how that wall fits into the overall scheme of things. Climbing the wrong wall just puts men at risk for nothing.
 
 Interestingly enough, it's those junior officer that everyone loves to hate that are the front line fighter pilots, bomber pilots, transport pilots, and tanker pilots. As young as they are, they are the ones that get the job done in war.
 
 Blaine

I shot most of last night in the ass,tryin' to make a tape of Clapton in Concert,for Bandit.
 
 The first attempt was botched,because I had the VCR on the wrong channel,so I got two hours of static for my efforts. The second attempt was going nicely,so I left well enough alone and went to bed with the VCR doing it's thing. Momma got up to check the kids and as she left the room I told her "DON'T turn the TV off". She came back to bed and said,"I turned the TV off like you asked"(and no she wasn't kidding!).
 
 Tonight I'll try again..............

Blaine,
 
 It is my perception that you took Art's thoughts way out of context and missed the crux.
 
 Either that,or I did................

Aren't VCRs great? I spent extra,when I bought mine to get "VCR Plus".Just enter that number out of the TV Guide and it'll turn itself on,find the channel,record,blah,blah,etc.Then they tell you in little tiny print on the last page of the manual..." of course,this won't work if you have a cable box ya idiot".Well maybe it was'nt worded quite that way,but... [Linked Image]

Jeff

Blaine
 You did miss my point... everyone has their job to do and only the ones up the ladder know what should be going on below. The true heroes in efficiency, as we both recognize, are the guys getting the most out of the enlisted men.
 
 Junior officers might get to grow up and become senior officers, but for the most part they are stuck in the middle, with little in the way of experience trying to get a job done that often is harder than they can handle. Most failures are due to lack of effective leaders for those junior officers.
 
 While they are at their most vulnerable they are dealing with a whole slew of folks with an attitude against them. Set up to fail?
 
 As you noted, I was not trying to slam a soul.
 best to you
 art

'skinner,
 
 I caught your semi-colorful rebuttal,before you saw fit to erase all your insightful commentary upon this Thread. If I hadn't paused to graze first,I'd of happliy elaborated on how you were/are once again mistaken,in my regard.
 
 For one that likes to comment upon favoring the high moral and value ground(albeit in "Bubbaspeak") ,it takes little for you to tuck your tail and retreat,once your glaring misconceptions have been brought to light.
 
 Actions speak louder than words,it appears you aren't comfortable in any of your fabricated skins and of little fiber to boot. To frost that multi-layered cake,you presume all of your shortcomings are someone else's doing. I'm no head-shrinker,but pard,you've got issues.
 
 While I've likely got the corner on shortcomings,none of 'em are anyone else's fault,excepting my own(and those funny little voices in my head).................

The fact thet you cain't leave nuthin' lie, shows what yer main shortcomin' is. You got no business stickin' yer nose in jus' to start a fight. The post you saw fit to comment on was addressed to someone else. Too bad Ken Howell ain't gonna git the opportunity to read it. Maybeso I might git enthusiastic enuff to retype it an' send it to him personal some time. I ain't gonna be takin' part in yer lil' [bleep] slingin' game, cause afterall, tis the season to be jolly.

In the Marines, leadership is cultivated in every enlisted member from day one. Not all will become leaders. Our goal of leadership is twofold, mission accomplishment, and troop welfare, in that order.
 
 Leadership is an intangible quality that inspires others to willingly perform hazardous, mission essential tasks they well know may result in their own death or serious injury.
 
 Management (of personnel, time, equipment, training, and money) are skills that are expected of all of our senior enlisted, and all officers.
 
 A rifle platoon of 41 enlisted men has one 2ndLt as a Platoon Commander. For all of his tenacity and daring, he has zero experience in most cases(some NCOs become officers, and bring experience with them)
 
 The Platoon is organized in three squads, each led by a Sgt or Cpl, Each squad is organized into three 4-man fire-teams, led by a Cpl or LCpl.
 
 The Officers are spread very thin in the Infantry. And that is where we succeed or fail, in the Marines. Either your Infantry, or you support the infantry (I'm an artilleryman)
 
 Our doctrine writers are senior officers with loads of experience. They work out of Quantico, far removed from the Fleet Marine Force
 
 This is kind of long. The 14 traits, and 11 principles of Marine Corps leadership
 
 
 MM
 
 
 Leadership Traits (taken from the Marines handbook)
 
 Leadership Traits
 
 You don't inherit the ability to lead Marines. Neither is it issued [given to you]. You acquire that ability by taking an honest look at yourself. You see how you stack up against 14 well-known character traits of a Marine NCO [Non Commissioned Officer i.e. a corporal and above, the first chain link of Marine leadership]. These are:
 
 1. Integrity
 2. Knowledge
 3. Courage
 4. Decisiveness
 5. Dependability
 6. Initiative
 7. Tact
 8. Justice
 9. Enthusiasm
 10. Bearing
 11. Endurance
 12. Unselfishness
 13. Loyalty
 14. Judgment
 
 Then you set out to acquire those traits which you might lack. You improve those you already have, and you make the most of those in which you are strong. Work at them. Balance them off, you're well on the road to leading Marines in war or peace. Marines expect the best in leadership and they rate[deserve] it. Give them the best and you'll find that you (1) accomplish your mission and (2) have the willing obedience, confidence, loyalty, and respect of your charges. In fact, you will have lived up to the official definition of a military leader.
 Now, let's take a closer look at each one of those traits of character which a leader must have.
 
 1. Integrity. The stakes of combat are too high to gamble leadership on a dishonest person. Would you accept a report from a patrol leader who had been known to lie? Of course you wouldn't. All your statements, official or unofficial, are considered by your Marines to be plain, unadorned fact. Make sure they are. When you give your word, keep it. There are people depending on you to come through with the goods.
 
 2. Knowledge. Know your job, weapons, equipment, and the techniques to be used. Master this GUIDEBOOK and your other training material. Be able to pass that knowledge on to your Marines. You can't bluff them. They are expert at spotting a fake. If you don't know the answer to a question, admit it. Then find out. Most important, know your Marines, Learn what caliber of performance to expect from each of them. Put confidence in those whom you can. Give closer supervision to those who need it.
 
 3. Courage. This comes in two kinds: physical and moral. If you are in a tight place and feel fear, recognize it. Then get control over it and make it work for you. Fear stimulates the body processes. You can actually fight harder, and for a longer time, when you are scared. So don't let a little fear make you panic inside. Keep busy when under fire. Fix your mind on your mission and your Marines. Courage grows with action. When things are really tough, take some action, even though it might be wrong. Positive action on a poor decision is better than a half-hearted attempt on the best possible one.
 As for moral courage, know what's right and stand up for it. Marines are not plaster saints by any means. But they serve God, Country, and Corps - in that order. The Ten Commandments are still a pretty good set of regulations, and they haven't had a change published for almost two thousand years. A Marine with the morals of an alley cat will never command the loyalty and respect of other Marines. A combat leader must also be a moral leader.
 When you're wrong, say so. Don't try to weasel out of your mistake. Everybody makes a mistake now and then. The trick is not to make the same one twice. When a job is left undone, true leaders don't harp, "Sir, I told those people .... � They fix the breakdown, not the blame.
 
 4. Decisiveness. Get the facts, all of them. Make your mind up when you've weighed them. Then issue your order in clear, confident terms. Don't confuse your Marines by debating with yourself out loud. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Make up your mind in time to prevent the problem from becoming bigger, but don't go off while still at the "half-cock'' position. If the decision is beyond the scope of your authority, take the problem up the chain of command to the person who gets paid to make that decision. But if the decision is yours, make it. Don't pass the buck. [Pass off the responsibility]
 
 5. Dependability. If only one word could be used to describe Marine noncommissioned officers over the years, that one word would have to be ''dependable." They get the job done, regardless of obstacles. At first they might not have agreed with the ideas and plans of their seniors. Being dependable, if they thought they had a better plan, they tactfully said so. But once the decision was made, the job was done to the best of their ability, whether or not it was their own plan which went into effect. Orders were followed to the letter, in spirit, and in fact. The mission came first, then the welfare of their men, then their own requirements.
 Dependable noncommissioned officers are solid citizens. They're always on time, never make excuses, and stay hot on the job until it's done. They're aboard when needed and out of the way when not needed. Duty demands that they often make personal sacrifices. They sense what has to be done, where duty lies. Country, Corps, and their men need and get dependability.
 
 6. Initiative. Think ahead. Stay mentally alert and physically awake. Look around. If you see a job that needs to be done, don't wait to be told. It the squad bay is full of newspapers and food wrappers on a Sunday morning, organize a detail and get the place squared away. Don't wait for the Duty NCO to come around. If you spot an enemy OP [offensive position], get some effective fire on it [shoot it, bomb it, kill it quickly]. By the time someone else finds that OP, it may have fire on you. Your situation and the lot of your Marines can always be improved. Do what you can. Use the means at hand. Think ahead, and you'll stay ahead.
 
 7. Tact. The right thing at the right time, that's what we mean by tact. It embraces courtesy, but it goes much further. It's the Golden Rule - consideration for others, be they senior or subordinate. Courtesy is more than saluting and saying, "Sir.'' It doesn't mean you meekly ''ask'' your Marines to do a job, either. You can give orders in a courteous manner which, because it is courteous, leaves no doubt that you expect to be obeyed. The tactful leader is fair, firm and friendly. You always respect another's property. Learn to respect feelings as well. If an individual needs ''reading off," [a good yelling at] then do it - but in private. Don't make a spectacle of them and yourself by doing it in public. On the other hand, when they do a good job, let their friends hear about it. They will be a bigger person in their eyes and you will too.
 There are times, particularly in combat, when a severe ''dressing down" [again, a good yelling at] of one person or a group of people may be required. Even so, this is tactful, for it is the right thing at the right time.
 In dealing with seniors, the Golden Rule again applies. Approach them in the manner you'd want to be approached were you in their position with their responsibilities.
 Use tact with juniors, but remember, a Marine NCO coddles nobody. Use tact with your seniors, but remember, nobody likes an "ear banger." [Likes to rant and rave, for no better reason to hear them selves]
 When you join a new outfit, just keep quiet and watch for a while, Don't noise it around that your old outfit was a better one just because it happen-ed to do things differently. Make a few mental notes when you find something that is wrong.
 When you've got your feet on the ground, then make those changes that you have the authority to make. You might be surprised at how little real-ly needs changing. Besides, you'll have learned another way of getting the job done.
 
 8. Justice.Marines rate a square-shooting leader. Be one. Don't play favorites. Spread the liberty and the working parties around equally. Keep anger and emotion out of your decisions, Get rid of any narrow views which you may have about a particular race, creed, or section of the country. Judge individuals by what kind of Marines they are; nothing else.
 Don't let your Marines be overlooked when the PX ration is distributed in the field. If you get an extra carton of smokes, divide them equally. Give every one of your Marines a chance to prove himself. Help those who fall short of your standards, but keep your standards high.
 
 9. Enthusiasm. It's a fact that the more you know about something, the greater your interest and enthusiasm. Show it. Others will follow your lead. Enthusiasm is more contagious than the measles. Set a goal for your unit, then put out all you've got in the achievement of that goal. This is particularly applicable in training. Marines are at their best when in the field. After all, they joined the Corps to learn how to fight. They'll learn, all right, but only when their instructor is enthused about what is being taught. Show knowledge and enthusiasm about a subject and your troops will want that same knowledge. Show your dislikes and gripe about what's going on and you'll still be leading - but in the wrong direction. The choice is yours. Make the right one.
 Don't get stale. ''Take your pack off,'' [I.e. rest a bit and think things through] can sometimes be good advice. Do it once in awhile. Then come back strong with something new. When you find yourself forced to run problems over the same old terrain, run them from the other direction.
 
 10. Bearing. Remember your DI? [Drill Instructor, read: the Devil Incarnate] He was lean, leather-lunged, and tanned to a bone-deep brown. He had drilled shoulders and knife-edge creases that sliced down his shirt and trousers all the way to a pair of shoes that looked back at you. His brass glittered at every move and he didn't walk, he marched! And he taught you to do the same. He knew that when he inspected a platoon of 70 men just once, he had been inspected 70 times by 70 different pairs of eyes. Consequently, he has bearing. You learned from him that a uniform is more than a mere "suit of clothes." You wear a suit-but you believe in a uniform. Therefore, you maintained it - all the time. People often ask why Marines don't wear shoulder patches, cords, decals, loops, discs, brass crests, and so on. Marines don't need such trinkets. The globe, eagle, and anchor-set against an immaculate blue or well-pressed forest green background - is enough identification. Besides, every stripe, every ribbon, every piece of metal, that you see on a Marine was earned. It wasn't handed out like an early chow pass. You earned your uniform and everything on it. Wear it with pride. [Think of this as �wearing a Dragon� be proud of what you are, and never deface it]
 That's part of what is meant by bearing. The rest of it is how you conduct yourself, in or out of formation, ashore or on board, verbally and emotionally. Learn control of your voice and gestures. A calm voice and a steady hand are confidence builders in combat. Don't ever show your concern over a dangerous situation, even if you feel it.
 Speak plainly and simply. You're more interested in being understood than in showing off your vocabulary. If you ever rant and rave, losing control of your tongue and your emotions, you'll also lose control of your Marines. Swearing at subordinates is unfair. They can't swear back. It's also stupid, since you admit lack of ability to express displeasure in any other way. Don't lose your temper. Master yourself before you try to master others. There may be one exception to this rule. The time might come, in battle, when tough talk, a few oaths, and the right amount of anger is all that will pull your outfit together. Even Christ got mad when he drove the money changers from the temple. But save your display of temper until it is absolutely needed. Otherwise it won't pay off, because you'll already have shot your bolt. [Played your hand]
 Sarcasm seldom gets results. Wisecrack to Marines - they've been around - they'll wisecrack back. Make a joke out of giving orders, and they'll think you don't mean what you say. This doesn't mean to avoid joking at all times. A good joke, at the right time, is like good medicine, especially if the chips are down. As a matter of fact, it is often the Marine Corps way of expressing sympathy and understanding without getting sticky about it. Many a wounded Marine has been sent to the rear with a smile and a remark about, ''What some people won't do to get outta' work!�
 Dignity, without being unapproachable-that's what bearing is. Work at it.
 
 11. Endurance. A five-foot Marine sergeant once led his squad through 10 days of field training in Japan. He topped it off with a two-day hike, climbing Mt. Fuji on the 36 miles back to camp. When asked how a man his size developed such endurance, he said, "it was easy. I had 12 guys pushing me all the way." What he meant, of course, was that 12 other Marines were depending on his endurance to pull them through. He couldn't think about quitting. Every leader must have endurance beyond that of his troops. The squad leader must check every position, then go build his. On the march he will often carry part of another's load in addition to his own. He also has the burden of command upon him. An unfit body or an undisciplined mind could never make it.
 Keep yourself fit, physically and mentally. Learn to stand punishment by undertaking hard physical tasks. Force yourself to study and think when tired. Get plenty of rest before a field problem. Don't stay on liberty until the last place is closed. The town will still be there when you get back. You'll enjoy it more then anyhow.
 A favorite saying of Marines is that you don't have to be trained to be miserable. That's true. But you do have to train to endure misery.
 
 12. Unselfishness. Marine NCOs don't pull the best rations from the case and leave the rest to their Marines. They get the best they can for all unit members, all the time.
 Leaders get their own comforts, pleasures, and recreation after the troops have been provided with theirs. Look at any chow line in the field. You'll see squad leaders at the end of their squads. You'll find staff noncommissioned officers at the end of the company. This is more than a tradition. It is leadership in action. It is unselfishness.
 Share your Marines' hardships. Then the privileges that go with your rank will have been earned. Don't hesitate to accept them when the time is right, but until it is, let them be. When your unit is wet, cold, and hungry - you'd better be too. That's the price you pay for leadership. What it buys is well worth the cost. The dry clothes, warm bunk, and full belly can come later.
 Give credit where credit is due. Don't grab the glory for yourself. Recognize the hard work and good ideas of your subordinates and be grateful you have such Marines. Your leader will look after you in the same way. They know the score, too.
 
 13. Loyalty. This is a two-way street. It goes all the way up and all the way down the chain of command. Marines live by it. They even quote Latin for it-"Semper Fidelis." [Always faithful] As a leader of Marines, every word, every action, must reflect your loyalty-up and down. Back your men when they're right. Correct them when they're wrong. You're being loyal either way. Pass on orders as if they were your own idea, even when they are distasteful. To rely on the rank of the person who told you to do a job is to weaken your own position. Keep your personal problems and the private lives of your seniors to yourself. But help your Marines in their difficulties, when it is proper to do so. Never criticize your unit, your seniors, or your fellow NCOs in the presence of subordinates. Make sure they don't do it either. If deserving persons get into trouble, go to bat for them. They'll work harder when it's all over.
 When it comes to spreading corruption, the proverbial rotten apple couldn't hold a candle to the damage that can be done by a disloyal noncommissioned officer.
 
 14. Judgment. This comes with experience. It is simply weighing all the facts in any situation, application of the other 13 traits you have just read about, then making the best move. But until you acquire experience you may not know the best move. What, then, do you use for experienced judgment in the meantime? Well, there are about two hundred years' worth of experienced judgment on tap in the Marine Corps. Some of it is available to you at the next link in the chain of command. Ask and you'll receive. Seek and you'll find.
 
 Principles of Leadership
 
 Now that you've had a look at the character traits required in a leader, let's see how these are fitted into what we call the principles of leadership. Eleven are set forth just for the sake of discussion. You may want to add or delete some. That's OK. We're not concerned as much about the words and phrases as we are about their application. They're all common sense items, anyway. When you get right down to it, a discussion of leadership is only common sense with a vocabulary. You've got the common sense. Let's put some of that vocabulary to work.
 
 1. Take responsibility for your actions and the actions of your Marines. The leader, alone, is responsible for all that the unit does or fails to do. That sounds like a big order, but take a look at the authority that is given you to handle that responsibility. You are expected to use that authority. Use it with judgment, tact and initiative. Have the courage to be loyal to your unit, your Marines and yourself. As long as you are being held responsible, be responsible for success, not failure. Be dependable.
 
 2. Know yourself and seek self-improvement. Evaluate yourself from time to time. Do you measure up? If you don't, admit it to yourself. Then turn to [correct it]. On the other hand, don't sell yourself short. If you think you're the best NCO in your platoon, admit that also to yourself. Then set out to be the best NCO in the company. Learn how to speak effectively, how to instruct, and how to be an expert with all the equipment that your unit might be expected to use.
 
 3. Set the example. As an NCO, you are in an ideal spot to do this. Marines are already looking to you for a pattern and a standard to follow. No amount of instruction and no form of discipline can have the effect of your personal example. Make it a good one.
 
 4. Develop your subordinates. Tell your Marines what you want done and by when. Then leave it at that. If you have junior leaders, leave the details up to them. In this way, kill two birds with one stone. You will have more time to devote to other jobs and you are training another leader, An NCO with confidence will have confidence in subordinates. Supervise, and check on the results. But leave the details to the person on the spot. After all, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And it's the whole fur you're after, not the individual hairs.
 
 5. Ensure that a job is understood, then supervise it and carry it through to completion. Make up your mind what to do, who is to do it, where it is to be done, when it is to be done, and tell your Marines why, when they need to be told why. Continue supervising the job until it has been done better than the person who wanted it done in the first place ever thought it could be.
 
 6. Know your men and look after their welfare. Loyal NCOs will never permit themselves to rest until their unit is bedded down. They always get the best they can for their Marines by honest means. With judgment, you'll know which of your troops is capable of doing the best job in a particular assignment. Leaders share the problems of their Marines, but they don't pry when an individual wants privacy.
 
 7. Everyone should be kept informed. Make sure your Marines get the word. Be known as the person with the straight dope [correct information]. Don't let one of your group be part of the so-called "10 percent." Certain information is classified. Let your Marines have only that portion that they need to know, but make certain they have it. Squelch rumors. They can create disappointment when they're good, but untrue. They can sap morale when they exaggerate enemy capabilities. Have theintegrity, the dependability to keep your unit correctly posted on what's going on in the world, the country, the Corps, and your unit. Never forget that the more your Marines know about the mission that has been assigned the better they will be able to accomplish it.
 
 8. Set goals you can reach. Don't send two Marines on a working party that calls for five. Your Marines may be good, but don't ask the impossible. Know the limitations of your outfit and bite off what you can chew. In combat, a "boy sent to do a man's job" can lead to disaster. In peacetime, it leads to a feeling of futility. Conversely, those who have a reasonable goal and then achieve it, are a proud lot. They've done something and done it well. Next time, they'll be able to tackle a little more. Don't set your sights clear over the butts; [back stop for bullets at the firing range] keep them on the target.
 
 9. Make sound and timely decisions. Knowledge and judgment are required to produce a sound decision. Include some initiative and the decision will be a timely one. Use your initiative and make your decisions in time to meet the problems that are coming. If you find you've made a bum decision, have the courage to change it before the damage is done. But don't change the word any more than you absolutely have to. Nothing confuses an outfit more than the eternal routine of ''brown side out ... green side out." [Heh, a uniform thing, hard to explain]
 
 10. Know your job. This requires no elaboration. It does require hard work on your part. Stay abreast of changes. War moves fast nowadays. Look up the dope on the latest weapons and equipment. Read up on recent developments. Don't be the type who can only say, ''Well, that ain't the way we did it in the old Fifth Marines."
 
 11. Teamwork. Train your unit as a unit. Keep that unit integrity every chance you get. If a working party comes up for three, take your whole fire team. The job will be easier with an extra hand, and your unit will be working as a team. Get your outfit out on liberty together now and then. They work as a team-, get'em to play as one. Put your Marines in the jobs they do best, then rotate them from time to time. They'll learn to appreciate the other person's task as well. When one member of your team is missing, others can do their share. But don't ever permit several men to do another person's job when he's around. Everybody pulls his load in the Marine Corps.
 When you and your unit have done something well, talk it up. This builds esprit de corps. Every Marine knows enough French to tell you what that means. You can't see it but you can feel it. An outfit with a lot of esprit holds itself in very high regard while sort of tolerating others. There's nothing wrong with that. All Marines have a right to figure their outfit is the best in the entire Corps. After all, they're in it! [A comment, above all else, Unit integrity is one of the most important things that I can possibly stress]
 
 What You Can Expect
 
 We've spent some time on what the Corps expects of you as a junior leader. It's not all one way. There are certain things which you have a right to expect in return. First of all, since you are the link in the chain of command that lies squarely between your senior and your subordinates, you can expect the same leadership from above that you've just read about.
 Then there's the additional pay you'll be getting along with every promotion - and promotion comes to real leaders, regularly. Also with promotion comes additional authority. It's granted to you on a piece of paper known as a Certificate of Appointment, commonly called a warrant. Take a look at it.
 You'll see more there than simply a piece of paper - much more. First, there's an expression of ''special trust and confidence'' in your "fidelity and abilities." That is recognition of the highest order. It's appreciation for your hard work thus far. But look further. You don't rest on your laurels in the Marine Corps. There's a charge to �carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the grade to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things thereunto pertaining." That means additional responsibility, which, when you think about it, is also a reward.
 Next, you'll find that additional authority we mentioned a while back. It's in the words, ''and I do strictly charge and require all personnel of lesser grade to render obedience to appropriate orders.'' Commanding officers who sign that Certificate are delegating a part of their authority to you. They get their authority from the President of the United States and have chosen you to help them in the execution of their responsibility. Notice, however, that they haven't delegated responsibility. That isn't done in the Corps, by them, by you, or by anybody.
 When it comes to leadership, there's no truer statement. Only the noncommissioned officer is in a position to give the close, constant, personal type of leadership that we've been discussing. When you, as a Marine NCO, have provided your unit with that type of leadership, then you already will have reaped the greatest return. By definition you'll (1) have accomplished your mission and (2) command the willing obedience, confidence, loyalty, and respect of the United States Marines under you.There is no more satisfactory reward, anywhere.

Montana Marine,
 Well stated. My military career began on the banks of the Hudson River and we were guided by the simple phrase of "Duty. Honor. Country." Having spent nearly 10 years in the military and 13 more in business in the HR profession, I feel qualified to comment at length on management / leadership. Nothing more needed.
 On top of being a distinguished "gun scribe", Ken Howell may have himself an alternate career as psychiatrist.
 Why don't we let this dog lie for a little bit.
 Merry Christmas to all, and to all a goodnight.
 Henry

Art,
 
 I do agree with the general foucs of your post. I am also not "upset'"or anything, but I am compelled to defend JOs, especially those in the USAF. Perhaps the USAF culture is different, as our JOs are our primary warfighters.
 
 When it comes to staff crap, I have found is a person achieves "red-tape compentency" around 12 years service, regardless of rank. Whether a person is an E-6 or O-3, they have figured the system out, no longer get pushed around, and know how to get things done. Perhaps that is one of your key points, that we give staff JOs more responsibility than their enlisted counterparts, when time in service has more bearing on their staff abilities than what type of education they have.
 
 
 Blaine

JSR,
 You're right-no one has,nor ever will be,the "greatest".Music is not something you can set score by.It's a personal expression.Just how many people you touch with that expression,is what counts.
 
 Duane and Clapton,were/are PURISTS.Hendrix and SRV had their own views on it,which were far from "purity".
 
 Duane and Clapton were/are straight players-they stand their playing their guitars.That speaks for itself.Clapton occasionaly uses a wah-wah pedel (he was the first to put it on record-Tales of Brave Ulysses).Other than that,no effect is used.
 
 Hendrix,and his audience,felt it neccessary to girate on stage,use every effect available (not much in those days),play with his teeth,between his legs,ect. ect.He had to do this,to please the audience,or at least please himself.SRV,while he did not do the physical things Hendrix did,used every sort of pedel made.
 
 Allman once said that a blind person could attend one of his concerts and come away with the same exact experience as someone with sight.The same could be said for Clapton,and to some extent SRV-their music stands for itself,and nothing else-not fashion,not girations.
 
 Santana was,at one time,one of the greatest blues players EVER.Period.He's now abondend anything even resembling his earlier work-he's sold out to the pop crowd.His latest album is a joke-every latest up-and-comer singing with Carlos injecting a little lead guitar here and there.He's sold out for sales.
 
 You may say Clapton has done the same thing-nope.Clapton does what he wants,when he wants to.If it's successful,great,if not,who cares?Just look-he went from mega-sales with Unplugged,and then turned around and did the same with From The Cradle-even though there is NO relationship between the two,other than Clapton being present.
 
 The purists-Clapton,Allman,all three Kings,Buddy Guy and others NEVER sold out-they just played what they wanted,and if you liked it,that's even better.To me,THAT'S what makes a musician a musician and not just someone who does it to pay the bills.
 
 Big Stick,
 I'm chucklin big time.Hadda plop down wwwwaaayyy over a grand into the damn 378 you talked me into,and I don't even want to THINK how many 378s it's going to cost me to move to Alaska.
 
 You having to argue with the VCR,is a TOKEN payback.I guess my VooDoo doll does work. [Linked Image]

WB.

AFP,
 
 You are absolutely right, all ranks are needed in the military, in order to succeed.
 
 I've thought about it before, how the Air Force is the one service that sends it's officers to battle before it's enlisted. You guys are diffenently different in that respect. Also, your Services pounding of Iraq prior to the 'ground war' was what made it so easy (relatively, of course) for our troops when they entered Iraq.
 
 Like MontanaMarine, I had some reservations about labeling NCO's 'managers', rather than 'leaders.' In fact, given the scenerio you provided, I'd have thought the titles should be reversed. The NCO does not 'manage' to get the troops over the wall, he has to convince them that they want to go over the wall, he has to provide the desire to go over the wall, if he's any kind of NCO, he'll go over the wall first, as would any good leader. But in any case, that's not real life (the wall scenerio), in real life both the NCO and the JO are leaders.
 
 Heck, it's easy to make a career person do stuff they don't really want to do, because they want good evaluations to insure future promotions. Try and threaten a 'one tour' E-4 with bad marks (OER) and he couldn't give a rip. Nope, the younger guys are the ones who are the hardest to lead, and it's the mid-level NCO's who get that job done without overburdening unit CO's with tons of NJP request's and Article 15 hearings.
 
 Anyhow, I just wanted to say my part too. Not saying that anything you wrote was incorrect. If all the levels of O's and E's weren't needed, they would have been done away with years ago.
 
 Take care, and keep the shiny side up! [Linked Image]

Brian,
 
 I guess it would be more accurate to say there is a leaderhip function and a management function, and both officers, enlisted, and civilians accomplish both depending on the situation. When I am flying a plane as an instructor pilot, I am a manager. I know the procedures, techniques, and tricks to help the student fly. In other functions I am a leader, providing oversight and direction.
 
 I think "they" in the militray have convinced us being a manager is inferior to being a leader. I don't see it that way. They are both equally important tasks.
 
 Blaine

'skinner,
 
 I'd not comment on something addressed to another,but you mentioned "Big Schtick" and something about unchecked egos right off the get go and I doubt either were directed towards Dr. Ken(please correct me,if wrong). I figured that one was aimed towards moi,but you erased it and my memory isn't quite photographic so as to warrant comment in greater detail.
 
 I wasn't slinging,just making conversation upon points brought up by you. Please don't feel compelled to stay up late at night,pounding your keyboard with Frontier Gibberish,on my account.
 
 You're pissed that the "woe is me" Hillbilly Routine don't fly in all circles(if any). Incensed that your educational pitfalls,are your own doing,despite being eager to pin it upon the shoulders of others. Make much fuss and commotion in regards to many things and about the only thing you remain constant upon is being a hypocrite. Then you try to weave in and out of personas,that you seem to feel strengthen your stance.
 
 You are a three ring circus and I'm diggin' the show..................

What bugs me most is people trying to one up each other in length of posts. [Linked Image]

Like your wives keep telling you, bigger isn't always better.... [Linked Image]

Skinner
 Don't know why you deleted your post. It was a good post. dempsey

Dempsy,
 
 Easy...........I hold the record for length of post here [Linked Image]

Blaine

In Marine culture,
 
 Management is applied to resources(the planning, organizing, allocating, scheduling of time, personnel, equipment, money) Very tangible.
 
 Leadership is applied to people(influencing the actions and decisions of living, thinking individuals). Intangible, but critical to success.
 
 MM

Blaine, people are just that, people, regardless of the uniform they wear or the rank they hold. All have a job to do and someone to answer to. I was honored to sit in the reviewing stand at graduation day parade, there were about fifteen flying officers sitting behind us. They carried on like school kids until someone told them to straighten up and be quiet. Their rank from 2nd Lt to Captain that I could see. How many officers do you know that could march troops or work on a plane. You are correct, it takes everyone to get the job done, few can fly the planes. -- no

I'm thinkin' SB holds the record,for his colorful Hunting Narratives. That Boy can recount an Adventure and it is appreciated,as he is amongst my favorites to read(anywhere)................

Maybe, but he chops them up in multiple posts, so it doesn't really count..............
 
 I don't make may marathon posts anymore. My last was "An Elk Story," but I don't think it was as long as what I used to routinely do on Shooters.
 
 Blaine

I remember those days, it was like getting repeatedly poked in the eye. [Linked Image]

(just fun'n with ya Blaine)

Stick
 I, too, saw the post and responded, but by the time I had posted the post had been deleted... I thought 'skinner thought better of his ad hominem attack and was going to post something worthwhile in its stead. Alas, I've been wrong before and I'm sure it will happen many more times before I'm through screwing up. I deleted my post...
 
 I guess he was pissed at you simply for agreeing with me and figured me not worthy of his wrath... Either that or your incredibly appropriate snake tongue imagery translates powerfully in mountain jibberish.
 
 GI guys...
 Did not mean to sidetrack everything by bringing the military into my argument. I have no particular bone to pick there. My father was a career officer in the AF medical corps (gas passer) and retired as a col. I have a kid brother I would rather kick than talk to who is nearing retirement, also an AF col.
 
 I have seen how things work only from the outside, but was around enough stuff to recognize where the competency level was greatest. For various reasons I have gotten to know a few big dogs in the AF officer ranks and, almost to the man, I have been impressed.
 
 Also know a few too many jet jockeys and have been generally under-whelmed... but that is just my opinion.
 art

Art,
 
 That's because the only people that are impressed with pilots are 6 yr olds--and other pilots..........We do have an incredible "self policing" process though....
 
 Blaine

Spike,
 
 It wasn't that bad. Crud, nobody would even try to answer questions, and few had much experience then. So I'd dig out the books and see what the "names" had to say. Of course, now we are all know-it-all I mean all-knowing experts ourselves....................... [Linked Image]

Blaine

Art,
 No problem from this end. Could turn this into a VERY long discussion about problems in the military, but let's keep it (sort of) to guns and hunting. Will make one point about jet jockeys: About 3 days into this 10 day exercise we're in an OPORD briefing with Army and AF. At the time I was an Armor Battalion FSO, so had a keen interest in the flyboys. Runnin' on about 7 hours sleep in the last 72. Well, right in the middle of the briefing all the jet jockeys get up and leave. I turn to my BN CDR and ask WTF? "Crew Rest". They had to have 8 hours of downtime before flying. I understand they are flying multi-million dollar aircraft and are a lethal force on the battlefield, but they went to the bottom of my list on that one (until I needed to call in some A-10's and F-16's and then they were my best pals). Have a 1st cousin that is a Bull in the AF. Served some time supporting Delta. Pretty cool guy.
 Henry

Many of our regulations written in blood. It didn't take long to figure out if a guy didn't get decent rest, really bad things happend while airborne. For example, it really sucks if you drop a nuke on the wrong target......It also sucks if the Army calls and you miss because you are so tired you can't concentrate.
 
 But don't worry, when we are working as ground pounders, they work us until we get stupid, just like they do the Army guys........ [Linked Image]

BTW, I'm pretty sure Army aviators have crew requirements as well.
 
 Blaine

They do. Believe me, no one appreciates more what they bring to the fight than the guys out front. Whether it is fast movers or Apaches. No debate there. In full support of the "combined arms" effort. I can just live w/o the attitude from the pilots, whether he drives an F-16, C-130, or CH-47.
 BTW, I was one of the guys the grunts called on for support, from Pershing missles (nukes) to MLRS and 155 howitzer, I lauched/fired them all. As an Airborne/Ranger knew all about the importance of supporting the guys out front.
 Henry

MM,
 First off, your long winded, I guess it come from running 4 miles every morning in boot camp at PI/SD. As far as your break down of a rifle platoon. I don't ever remember it being like that. Maybe thats what the little Red Book had in it, but in the real world it wasn't, at least where I was at, it wasn't...........
 
 7400hunter

7400,
 
 I've been "in" since 1979. The organization of a rifle plt has changed once or twice in that time. Three 13-man squads made up of a squad leader(Sgt) and three 4-man fire teams, is current T/O for a rifle plt.
 
 Fire Team Organization:
 
 Fire team leader, M16A2
 Automatic Rifleman, M249 SAW
 Grenadier, M16A2 w/M203 grenade launcher
 Rifleman, M16A2
 
 Of course we all know usually about only 60% manned. Same/same in artillery(I'm an 0861). Each piece rates a 10-man crew, 6 pieces per battery. In peacetime, we can usually only field 2-4 guns per btry due to manning.
 
 About the only time a units T/O is full, lately, is in the case of a MEU. Where I'm sure you know they are manned up 6 mo. before deployment, for their pre-deployment work-up.
 
 I'm not usually so long-winded, but when AFP generalized all military NCOs as managers, I nearly puked. Hence the overkill....
 
 These are the facts as I see them, based on my limited experience......(grin)
 
 Semper Fi! MM

Like I stated before, we are in deep trouble, these guys in the military can't spell for sour apples. Some of the words they put together look like chicken scratching and they expect everyone to know just what they are talking about. Very intresting reading. TIWGTAC -- no

Sorry bout that Need One. You are absolutely right. We have our own languages, I can speak fire support fluently, and dabble in infantry. Outside that, I can get lost pretty fast.
 
 T/O: Table of Organization, or essentially a manning roster for a specific type of unit.
 
 SAW: Squad Automatic Weapon (5.56mm belt or magazine fed)
 
 0861: Fire Support Man, Military Occupational Specialty(MOS). Essentially an enlisted Forward Observer (FO), and fire support planner/coordinator.
 
 MEU: Marine Expeditionary Unit. The smallest Marine Air Ground Task Force(MAGTF). Consists of a Command Element(CE) with three sub-elements: A reinforced Battalion sized Ground Combat Element(GCE), a composite squadron Air Combat Element(ACE), and a Combat Service Support Element (CSSE)
 
 For those interested,
 
 MM

Henry,
 
 The attitudes of some of the young pilots is hard to take for many. Since--in terms--of the militray--I am now an "old" pilot, I have a different perspective. I don't mind the young fighter guys being a little cocky, if that's what it takes for them to be confident and aggressive when flying. I want them to have their "fangs out," because I think that makes them more effective.
 
 Now I'm sure it was just a typo, but there aren't any C-130 pilots with inappropriate attitudes [Linked Image]

...........
 
 My first tour was in C-130s (when I was one of those much reviled JOs), and it didn't take long for me to realize--like Andy Griffith said in "No Time for Sergeants"--it's the Army that does the real fightin', and the Air Force is just the helpers....." I don't know when pilots from other weapons systems figure this out, but eventually most of them do. The whole objective of F-15 CAP, F-16/B-52 attacks, and C-130s hauling troops and supplies is supporting that 19 yr old with an M-16 occupying his 3 sq ft of ground. You probably didn't know we knew that [Linked Image]

...........
 
 Blaine

Art,
 
 You didn't step on any toes, but you did open the door to a whole nother line of thought. Interestingly enough I find my "natural" reaction as a pilot is to be critical of the medical folks. I wonder if there is natural antagonism between docs and pilots?
 
 Blaine

Blaine
 No, I think you pilots are just jealous! ;-)
 art

AFP,
 I've been on both ends of the stick here. Grunt in the 3rd Marine Division and also a Pilot. Got tired of both and my toes have been sore all my life.
 
 7400hunter

MM,
 I'm sure things have changed a lot since I was in. The Marine Corps has to change to be effective in what they do, since they are the best at doing those things. I've noticed they don't use the terms such as FMF, BLT, MAU. and etc. which I was a part of, being an 0311. 1stBn. 4th Mar. 3rd MarDiv. & 1stBn, 8thMar. 2ndMarDiv. a long time ago.
 
 7400hunter

7400,
 
 MAU, MAB, and MAF, are now MEU, MEB, MEF. You know how names change with Commandants. The word "Amphibious" was replaced with "Expeditionary" awhile back. The rest of the terms are in common usage.
 
 
 MM

I am here for entertainment and edification (is that a word?) Very little "bugs" me, - if I don't like it I pass it by. Once in a while, though......
 
 Probably my biggest irks are my own habits. I tend to be windy and pedagogal ? , my spelling is not the best, and although I usually proof and edit, I don't use spellcheck in this context, as it is not available, and I can never find the friggin' dictionary when I need it.
 
 I appreciate everyone's forebearance of my foibles, and try to extend the same courtesy to you all ("ya'll" in Texas).
 
 Oh yes - Einstein - He is also alleged to have replied "Madame, I am a mathemetician, not a philosopher!" when asked if he prepared his own tax returns.
 
 Remember the movie "Zulu" ? In the action that this movie was based on, something like 14 Victorian Crosses (equivalent to our Medal of Honor) were awarded. The sargeant didn't get one of them, because he was "just doing his job".

You nailed it pardner. Duane and Slowhand, no one else are even close in my CD collection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"stoned blue, rock and roll shore helped me thru" I completly wore out a Foghat 8-track my junior year in high school, thanks for the memories.

Spaulding

BuckHunter,
FINALY,someone else on this board agrees with me.

Just one more mornin',I hadda wake up with the blues,pull myself outta bed,put on my walkin shoes,went up on the mountain to see what I could see,the whole world was fallin,right down on top of me.....

WB.

I feel that you hit the nail on the head Dempsey, I noticed that there were a few people that brought themselves to writing just exactly the things they said that they didn't like in the posts. A bit hippicritical if you ask me. None the less I probably owe Dr Ken an apology for using him as a guinea pig in the whole spectrum of things. [color:"red"] [/color] I apologize Dr Ken!!!!! I hope all had a wonderful x-mas and I wish all a very happy new year!!!!! [color:"blue"] [/color] I know I had an absolutely wonderful time with the missus and all the children.