I hope this gets lots of coverage... I know the saying about "two sides to every story...", but this sure looks bad from this view

http://patriotroom.com/article/obama-s-atf-e-thugs-on-the-offensive

Absolutely remarkable. A 51 year-old man lives with his father in a trailer. Thirty-four years ago - as a minor - the man was arrested with a friend that had forged a check. That made him a "former felon." His father collects guns. The dozen or so guns are secured in a safe. With search warrant in hand, "15 officers from the U.S. bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and local police" surround the trailer, use a battering ram on an unlocked door, throw people to the floor, point guns at their heads, handcuff them, and proceed to trash the place.

Why? "The family was told by ATF officers that the agency received a tip six weeks ago that a convicted felon was living at the home and had access to guns."

The "convicted felon" has no run-ins with the law since 1975 as a minor. The local police were fully aware of the gun collection. No attempt was made to simply knock or inquire about entry. No, Obama's Thugs treated this family like they were on the FBI Most Wanted List.

Did they arrest anyone? No.

Did they take all the guns? No - they left behind the one gun that wasn't a collectors item - a hand gun with a clip.

Afterward: "At the end of it when they didn't find nothing, they were real nice," Gilman Boynton said.

Yeah, thanks Obama. You're running the wrong war, son.

They the BATF was just hoping someone would resist so they could waste them. Another government agency at their best.

Two questions come to mind immediately. Why is this 51 year old man living in a beat up old trailor with his elderly parents and how did he get convicted of anything because his "friend" forged a check. There may be good answers for these questions, but until I have them, there is little credibility in those reporting this story.






WALLINGFORD - A usually quiet mobile home park was shaken Friday morning when about 15 officers from the U.S. bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and local police descended on one of their neighbor's homes with force.

"They had their guns drawn and were surrounding the house," said Jennifer Monroe of Hosford Bridge Road. "These weren't small guns, they were machine guns. It wasn't normal."

Lynne Boynton, of 15 Hosford Bridge Road, went to her husband's truck for coffee money at about 6 a.m. and was pushed to the driveway and handcuffed with an officer's knee in her back and a gun to her head.

ATF officers surrounded her father-in-law's home at Western Sands Mobile Home Park and used a battering ram to enter the unlocked home in the rear, Boynton said.

"They were pouring out of there like crazy," said Monroe, who can easily see the front door. "They had Lynne in handcuffs. We were like 'What are they looking for?' "

Once inside, officers pulled Gilman Boynton and Paul Boynton out of bed, the men said. Paul Boynton said three or four officers threw him to the floor and put a gun to his head. Gilman Boynton, 76, who suffers from a heart condition, was made to sit in the living room, he said.

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"Don't I have any rights?" a visibly shaken Gilman Boynton said. "I've been living here for over 40 years. The police have been here and seen my guns."

The family was told by ATF officers that the agency received a tip six weeks ago that a convicted felon was living at the home and had access to guns, Lynne Boynton said. Paul Boynton was arrested 34 years ago at the age of 17 with a friend who had forged a check. He hasn't been arrested since, he said.

Gilman Boynton is a gun collector, who keeps his rifles in a locked case on the wall, and a Beretta pistol in a safe. On Friday, ATF officers confiscated 14 rifles from the gun case and took his permits, he said. After breaking the safe, the ATF officers left the Beretta with a magazine cartridge still in the safe in Boynton's dresser.

"If they are so worried about guns, why did they leave a pistol in the safe and the holster?" Lynne Boynton said. "It was humiliating; I've never been handcuffed in my life."

According to a search and seizure warrant signed by U.S. District Court Judge Joan G. Margolis in New Haven Thursday, the agents were authorized to seize firearms, ammunition, holsters and destructive devices. They were also looking for personal property that identified the residents, including canceled mail, deeds, leases, rental agreements, photographs, personal telephone books, diaries, utility and telephone bills, statements, identification documents and keys.

The confiscated guns and the arrest warrant must be presented to Margolis in court.

There were no arrests during Friday's raid.

Paul Boynton said he is not a gun enthusiast and didn't make the connection between his 34-year-old conviction and his father's collection.

"This could have been handled so much easier," Boynton said. "All they had to do was have an officer come to my door and tell me."

The Boynton's rear door was bashed and has to be secured. Garbage bags, clothing, jewelry, a television and other household items were dumped in heaps in the various rooms. Paul Boynton, who suffers from herniated discs and other back problems, was having difficulty walking.

The officers called a medic for Gilman Boynton to check his vital signs, and asked if he wanted to be hospitalized. He refused.

"At the end of it when they didn't find nothing, they were real nice," Gilman Boynton said.

Neighbor Natalie Monroe, mother of Jennifer, said in the 21 years she's lived there, she's never seen any disturbances across the street and was shaken at the sight of her neighbor lying in her driveway in handcuffs. She was also concerned about the effects all the excitement would have on Gilman Boynton's health.

"We were floored," Natalie Monroe said. "We were like what the heck is going on? I've never seen anything like this. They went through all their vehicles."

A Wallingford Police Department detective said the department sent several officers to the scene at the request of the ATF. But the department had no knowledge of the details in the case, and referred questions to the bureau. Telephone messages left at the ATF's field offices in New Haven and Boston were not returned.

The officers told the family that Paul Boynton could still be arrested because the keys to the gun rack were hanging up in the kitchen, Lynne Boynton said.

"But I had to help them open it," Gilman Boynton said.

Pat,
I don't think the fact that the son is a convicted felon is in doubt.It's the complete over-reaction by the ATF that is being questioned.The guy was in on a forged check 34 years ago when he was a teenager.Not exactly John Dillinger.

WB.

A more precise phrase might be "Three sides to every story.. he said, she said and objective reality somewhere in the middle...".

I call plenty of "credibility" for a lot of explaining to be done. Given the current public fear of Obama and his administration, something like this needs all kinds of "transparency".

I heard the decision to buzz NYC with Air force One as being "Felony stupid". Unless there were lots of clear reasons to go in like that... this appears to be felony stupid at best.

Worse case is that this is foreshadowing of more oppressive moves planned by Barry <the guy John Lotts says told him directly that, "he doesn't believe civilians should be allowed to own guns at all"> and his new posse.

Just a 'tip'?? Did they do any further research? I.e., if some 'neighbor' that may have a small beef with another neighbor calls the ATF and gives them a 'tip' about illegal firearms, is there going to be another jack-booted entry and all rights of the individual torn asunder?

Man, to me, this is really scary.. Anybody then, for no reason, could have the ATF at their door simply because of some obscure tip...

It ain't America anymore...

Am I to understand that it is a crime to have the keys to the safe in the house if a felon lives there? Would it also be a crime if you unknowingly had a felon to supper and your guns weren't locked up at all? Sure am glad I don't live east of the Mississippi - can't imagine why anyone does.

My point is that ALL the info is coming from the "victims" and it just doesn't add up. It will be interesting to see the rest of the story.

The battering ram was getting rusty. Time to do a no-knock.

I just realized this is in Connecticut. You may be right.

I have ZERO problem believing that the BATFINKS pulled this off exactly as portrayed. ZERO.

For us with FFL's, how long before they ask for copies of our yellow, then white, and back to yellow forms??

argh, my entire client base are subversives!!

Yeah well, what is your personal experience with simular scenarios?

If the ATF is involved then there is no rest of the story

Perhaps this is what we have to look forward to as "enforcement of existing gun laws".

I see a lot of holes in the story, and more info would help with that.

Still, I don't doubt for a moment that the .gov thugs would be involved in a stunt like that.

If he was a minor when the supposed crime occurred doesn't that wipe his record?

tom

The story needs some objective corroboration, if in fact this story is correct then this is a clear example where our government has become terrorist to the citizens it is obligated to serve, and has no further authority over the citizenry

You have to understand, my view of Federal law enforcement is no more optimistic than others, but it is far more realistic. The work required to acquire a Federal search warrant and get a team of ATF agents committed to an operational plan approved by D.C. (which is required)is far to much to expect from them to investigate a simple "felon in possession" case. They are a dime a dozen.

more holes than a Swiss cheese in this story


obviously, sonny boy did more than have a friend who was a forger. He copped a plea to a felony....presumably to avoid something worse. And I don't think he was a juvenile either.

So, point one, he was and is a felon, and under long standing federal law can't possess firearms legally. Be interesting to know who was the informant who knew about that long-ago felony, and what his interest was to cause him to come forward now.....like maybe a current criminal buddy of the son who got pinched and was looking for somebody to roll over on?

Whether his living arrangement constituted "possession" seems very doubtful to me, and obviously these Yankee ATF guys were overreacting playing SWAT team down at the trailer park. But this is just the "perps" telling their side of the story.

I suspect when the whole story comes out, this will be more like the momma whose poor little sonny boy was supposedly kidnapped under the Patriot Act which turned out to be a load of BS.

I have been reading of similar accounts concerning ATF,BATF,BATFE for decades. Wrong address here, wrong person there, informant this, informant that, heavy-handed tactics, stongarm dealers,throw guns in the middle of the floor on a blanket, etc. etc.

Every decade or two they get yanked in before Congress and get their wrists slapped. At first I was sceptical of reports as I am very pro-law enforcement (my daughter is an officer in a federal agency). After forty years of watching I now view them with a very jaundiced eye. Sorry fella, you won't change my mind overnight, but the ATF could start trying.

I wouldn't give 2 [bleep] in the wind for the opinions of most law enforcement users on a subject like this, that's like asking Cheney if he thought their was any kind of conflict of interest with his official capacity as Vice-President and his connection to the war profiteering Haliburton Corporation

I don't want to change your mind about the ATF, but their screw-ups are generally those of bureaucratic stupidity and lack of practicle experience, not over-zealous, random acts of boredom and oppression that some clowns believe.

I've read your complete lack of facts based posts and your incessant knock on the government/cops whiny-assed rants and your "2 schitz in the wind" comment was a perfect description.

You came here with a agenda, son, and you're as transparent as they come.

What doesn't make any sense is that the ATF took all 14 long guns,but left the only handgun,a Beretta auto.So the felon still has access to a firearm-an "evil" handgun to boot.

WB.

Agreed. But, that suggests to me that many gaps are still in need of being filled.

If I spent my entire legal career preparing by only relying on what the defendant and his mom and dad had told me, my jury verdicts win/loss record would be far different.

Well you strike me as a closet homo internet stalker who is probably master****** as you type (trying to anyways), but they do have a procedure for that and it's called a
Cephalanalectomy
and I highly reccomend it for you, here's a little treat for you (ok, a diversion to get you off 24 for a bit) while you're dreaming of Sargeant Joe Friday

http://www.logoonline.com/video/mis...deo-from-ep-5-us-of-ant.jhtml?id=1585597

some of you fellas are sure ready to cut the BAT-thugs alot of slack .

I agree with the Caption , these guys have a VERY long history of such abuses.....as far as I'm concerned , they are guilty until proven innocent .

Randy Weaver comes to mind.............

Just a question, during the period of time for the past eight years prior to Jan 09. Was the BATF Bush's thugs, or just the BATF? I am sure Obama got a call prior to serving the warrant seeking his approval, just as GB always got one. Obama is quite a few things, but a micro-manager of the BATF in their daily operations he's not.

....I'm in complete concurrence with your post based on the repeated abuses I've seen from the BATF over the years. It seems that abuse is standard procedure with them. Several previous congressional investigations of thier abuses have each ended with recommendations that they be disbanded. They've even been caught illegally purchasing aircraft to build thier own 'air force' against congressional approval. Even that didn't get them disbanded. The Weaver case ended with them convicted of several counts of perjury during the Boise trial, and still we have no real changes there it seems...The first gov't agent shot at Waco was a BATF agent who shot himself accidentally,as he climbed a ladder to assault the compound. His wounding resulted in several of his fellow agents opening fire with m-16 fire through the upstairs windows into the "offending" compound inhabitants.

+1

It's incidents like this that are motivating many states to insulate themselves and their citizens from Federal gun laws. If each state passed legislation nullifying Federal gun laws within their borders, and started arresting Federal agents for this kind of thing, it would stop.

That felon living there comment is not making sense to me. Gordon Liddy is often fond of saying he doesn't own any guns (as a convicted felon) but his wife owns plenty of them.

This part as well as some other issues are still quite vague.A thorough reporter would have included the substance of the search warrant affidavit in her reporting. Her article doesn't even address the probable cause for the warrant. I can't imagine a felon living there as a basis for the search warrant unless Conn has some specifically related statute I'm unaware of.But, this is Federal so it's unclear to me thus far.

The search warrant included the seizure of home ownership information, as well.

So far, it's not a good day for the BATF but the affidavit and the evidence might make for another outlook.

Dear dumbass:

Cheney got rid of his Halliburton stock before he became vice president.

The stock lost 80% of its value the first two years Cheney was in office. It didn't get back to its pre-election stock price for about five years.

The Iraq work was not profitable, it was other work that finally got the stock price up in 2007 and 8, before it tanked, while Cheney was in office. If he was trying to help Halliburton, he was doing a damn poor job of it.

Any other moonbat myths you want clarified?

So what's your take on the Cavalry Arms situation that 2 years later still has no arrests, no transparency, no apologies and appears to be nothing more than a BATF over zealous, random act of oppression?

it is usually a mistake to blame a screw up by federal bureaucrats on actual malice.....that would require too much thought and effort.

if you go with incompetence and/or negligence, you'll usually be right

and before anybody makes too big a fool of themselves (too late for you, zen) over this case, I'd wait to hear a bit more

unless you really enjoyed that crow feast on the "Patriot Act teenager kidnapping"

Up Yours Dumba** Iraq was all about profit, sacking Iraq for contracts, insider deals, war profiteering in general, etc, also a smokescreen for curtailing citizen's rights, the creation and empowerment of new government bureaucracies including BATF, not to mention the treasonous influence on our governement by foreign lobbys such as AIPAC, who recently was under investigation for spying, that is to say Israel's influence on our officials, aka Jane Harman, connected to the AIPAC scandal- if I didn't have anything more important to do I might waste more of my time on you
Jerk

I'm guessing your about 17 and have more tubes of Clerasil than you do toothpaste! And, you have flunked the GED exam at least twice.

'Bout right?

does this child zen sound familiar to anybody else.....like someone with issues who was put in permanent time out a while back?

just contwolling his wittle potty mouth a little better right now?

"Incompetence and/or negligence" may be the case here in this instance .... but I stand by my comments.

child.

time for cheerleading practice? or the gang coming over for Dragons and Dungeons?

excuse me, "children."

You and the the stalker, Soixante Neuf!

I wasn't commenting on this alleged incident, just disagree with LtPowell that the BATF's historical screw ups are limited to innocuous bureaucratic snafus.

Is it your nervousness that makes you stutter?

Still trying to put on a pair of big boy pants, ain't ya'?

Ok you're losing me, here. Is that what the kids call it, these days?

Ok, I've donated enough of my time to the intellectually challenged, moving right along....

Intelligient??? You're a real Einstein, ain't ya'?

I said "generally". I did not say "limited to".

To be honest with you, I've never heard anything about it other than yackity-smackity on blogs.

There used to be a website called Abuses of the BATF that was on my old computer. I lost it along with lot of other stuff when a lightning strike not only wiped out the computer but the surge protector that failed to do it's job.
It started out with the Ken Ballew incident and as I recall, there were something over 100 incidents related.
The story of the incident may be confused but who can say they would think straight after a jack booted thug raid.
As far as the kid being a felon, unless he was tried as a adult, wouldn't his record been sealed?
Paul B.

My favorite no knock raid story was right here in Denver. Denver's finest blew in the door, ran inside, perp is in room with pop can in his hand, and they shoot him. Only problem is they had the wrong address. Bummer. Cost a life and millions of dollars in lawsuits.

What did you expect, they can't manage a social security data base on who is dead. Not malice, just pure incompetence.

Absolutely! That's my point. But the usual conspiracists think we're out to get them. Hell, doctor's kill way more people than cops do through incompetence. I wouldn't start a thread bashing them though, because most are good people trying to make a living by helping humanity.

wasn't responding specifically to what you said, Foxbat, just a general observation

and like all rules, it has exceptions.....but they're pretty rare


and I've been dealing with various species of feds, as clients, customers of clients, and litigation adversaries for a long time. if anything, bureaucracies tend to restrain personal animosities....the inertia that makes them inefficient also makes them difficult to use for random vendettas against people outside the organization. too many people have to sign off.

You are, of course, correct. That's why the problem exists primarily in the degree of power claimed by the Federal Government over the personal lives, possessions, and activities of individual Americans. Given that degree of intrusive power claimed by a distant authority (largely unaccountable to the local communities in which they operate), these kinds of violations of individual rights are bound to happen far too frequently for a free people long to tolerate.

I like how you reversed the order of those two words just so no one would guess you were a regular player.

under Connecticut law, he could have the juvenile conviction removed from his record, and he would not be disabled from firearms ownership. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-r-0212.htm

which is why I suspect, subject to further info coming out from someone who isn't, like, a suspect/victim/perp.....that what the guy pled to was something far more than helping out a bud with a forgery, and/or he did it as an adult. And/or has other charges and/or convictions. We'll see.


But like isaac said....if you base your reality on swallowing whole whatever suspects and their parents tell you, you're in a parallel universe.

I did? I'll defer to your expertise, bwana.

So all the shootings, harrassment, violations of citizen's Constitutional rights-all that is incompetence? That's not gonna cut it with the citizenry anymore, I'm following the story in LA on youtube right now where a suspect, who is prone on the ground, hands clasped behind his head is attacked by a cop who comes running up to him, gun drawn, and full-force kicks him in the head-is that incompetence too? Give me a freakin' break, 'incompetence' is a codeword used by LE to get away with thuggery

Yes, like you, I played in college.

I was gonna say zen is Johnny Cochran, but he dead. Who was Rodney King's lawyer?

Whether incompetence or otherwise, the problem lies fundamentally in the depth and degree of power claimed over individuals by a distant and unaccountable authority. That's where the fight needs to be fought, i.e., reining in the Federal Government and police powers in general, i.e., restore the Constitution and federalism.

Ah, so in one thread you state that I can't speak for the members of law enforcement community and my opinion is my own. In this thread, apparently, you can speak for the citizenry.

Apparently your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

George

Yes you are a citizen, but you are also a policeman, you are paid by the very government that is under scrutiny here in such a forum, what exactly would we expect you to say? You are part of the apparatus that is being hotly debated, what CANNOT be allowed in a public forum like this is to allow someone like you to suppress, control or squash public debate,
because in case you haven't been paying attention, the internet is the vehicle for grass roots public resistance to these abuses,
but please, speak your mind-you can be sure I will, and I hope it encourages others to do the same, many of them are afraid to speak out, some have told me that;
the only thing we have to fear is fear itself
(and BATF, apparently)

what CANNOT be allowed in a public forum like this is to allow someone like you to suppress, control or squash public debate,
because in case you haven't been paying attention, the internet is the vehicle for grass roots public resistance to these abuses,
+++++++++++++

You are one whacked out goofball,dude! Paint thinner? Glue? Please tell me you have an excuse!

Speak your mind and stand behind your opinions, I ceratainly will.

The difference is, I will do so without lumping together members of a subculture due to the abuses of a few. If you want me to, I can easily do so (priests, teachers, doctors, plumbers, soldiers: where do you want me to start?)

Again, you refer to "people like (me)". You have no idea who I am and what my beliefs are. Some here do. The fact is, IIRC, you're from California. Since we're classifying, you must be a pinko commie liberal (sorry to all the good Cali. folks, it's just to prove a point).

"People like me" want to see things discussed rationally. "People like me" want to see the problem cops driven off the job. "People like me" will be standing up with all the other goodly folks out there in support of the Constitution and the American way. If you knew half of what you think you know, you would be dangerous.

George

as i read it, the 14 guns taken were in a case on the wall with the keys hanging where anyone living in the abode had access to them...
the handgun that was not seized was locked separately in a safe...

You're assuming, junior, that every LEO is a "company man" and doesn't think for himself. NOTHING could be further from the truth. If you were familiar with those involved in law enforcement you'd be aware that most of them have an uncanny ability to see through the crap and find the truth, probably why you aren't getting anywhere here.

Actually "felcher" comes to mind.

you self-important little twirp......"many" are afraid to speak out..."some" have even confided in you. What kind of fantasy are you living in, as a ....what, two week, 80 post forum genius?

go back to Kos and DU where you belong.....you'll get laughed at less

Saw a tee shirt once that said, "The BATF should be a convenience store.... NOT a Federal agency!"

IMO there is a collective fear of oppressive government powers... be they LEO, IRS, left wing "activist" judges, Marxist Presidents... basically any power/authority sort that gets out of control.

It is my hope that due to recent political events this fear will result in any possible abuse of power being looked at very closely...

"Social activism" has been use to the point where a Klan member would not be likely to use "the N word" in public and similar "activism" has resulted in making the use of the word homosexual almost forbidden <not to mention more derogatory terms> the gay and lesbian power groups have seen to that...

Plan A would now seem to be to build on the 2 nd amendment rights gains to the point where there has to be a crystal clear reason given for any gun confiscation activity... with maybe a dozen extra forms to be filled out and made public to keep any such abuses in check...

BTW, might be time to start another religion thread to being back more harmony at the Campfire

Gentlemen,

Let us not be hasty in dismissing the views of this bright young newcomer to the fire we know as zEN.

Perhaps he has pieced together the threads that will weave into a vast tapestry that will be the undoing of the toxic right wing federal law enforcement conspiracy that was inflicted upon us all by Bush and Cheney.

Naaah,

It's probably just that glue he sniffed in his mom's basement while he was doing his homework for 10th grade.

I like the LEO bashing. It keeps me on my toes. It's easy to forget that there are crazy people out there when you deal mostly with normal citizens. Meth monkeys and crack whores are "normal" citizens compared to dumbasses that are ate-up with conspiracy theories.

Sounds like another Ruby Ridge or Waco to me.....

sounds like BPML is back with a new handle to me

Right wing and law enforcement conspiracy are contradictory concepts. It is the left that seeks state power concentration to the degree that it might (will) pose a threat to individual liberty. Right wingers are the ones who distrust such concentrations of state power. Let's keep our terms straight.

That's pure BS. It's just not as easy for the left to get away with it 'cause the right wrote the book on dirty tricks.

if you care enough to look, the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing hold almost the same political positions, albeit based on radically different viewpoints... those who make the claim that there is "only one way, and everyone must conform", usually find similar methods to enforce conformity...

You forgot gay.

I suspect you are confusing folks who call themselves "right wing" with what right wing politics is actually all about. The political terms "left wing" and "right wing" have had perfectly good definitions from the time shortly following the French Revolution. In fact that's where it all got started.

The legislative body of Revolutionary France tended to sit either in the right wing or the left wing of the legislature (the building) depending on where their political sympathies laid. Those who were in favor of concentrating the powers of government and using them to manipulate the people and the culture in accordance with untested modern ideologies (with relative disregard for individual liberty) tended to congregate in the left wing of the building and those who opposed this viewpoint, sought decentralization of government power, and respected the rights of individuals, congregated in the right wing. Very soon, for shorthand, if you wanted to identify where a member of the French legislature stood politically, you simply identified in which wing of the building they sat, the right or the left. The idea stuck and survives to this day.

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. At the extreme edge of the right wing is maximum decentralization of power, i.e., anarchy (no state power, and every individual does his own thing), and at the extreme left wing is maximum consolidation of power, i.e., the total state (no individual rights, and each individual is seen as existing solely for the service of the state).

After WWII, there was a massive propaganda effort on the part of left wing university intellectuals to reframe the right/left scale so that it would appear that, while Stalinism was indeed an example of the extreme left, the various forms of fascism would be seen as examples of the extreme right. The reason for this was the reality that both were examples of the extreme left by the definition already in long use at the time.

Their concern was that the horrors perpetrated by multiple left wing regimes in the early and middle Twentieth Century (E.g., Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Soviet Russia) would permanently taint the left and destroy their hopes of transforming the world into a leftist "paradise."

Something needed to be done, so they reframed the whole right/left scale into a circular pattern and proposed that if any society went either to the extreme left or the extreme right, the result would be essentially the same. Their effort was successful, as this new concept was soon taught at all the universities (and is to this day). They saved leftism from being permanently associated with the horrors both of Fascism and Communism.

This was and is, however, false. Both Fascism and Communism are manifestations of the extreme left. The circular theory, when one considers the actual meaning of the political right wing, is utterly nonsensical.

the biggest question in my mind is why there are federal agents in this guys trailer when the sheriff, local p.d. or constable could have handled this...
it seems to be a bit of a grandstanding act on the feds part... a photo op, perhaps, or just walking the dog.....

The concept of a political left and a political right, in governance, is merely a mental composition or tool used to compare positions. To maintain the position that a government based on extreme right wing views would be anarchistic is laughable... No one who seeks to govern has anything in common, philosophically or practically, with an anarchist...

Well, there is the 24-hour rule. Not like this story is going mainstream, so I guess I could place a bet and imagine a Sheriff casing the joint and sending someone to the door when sonny-boy is out drinking or something. It's not like the old man looks like a hardass...

Then again, THERE ARE PILLS THERE. METH LAB - METH LAB!!!!!

a government based on anarchy makes as much sense as a football bat...

I kew it wouldn't be long before the Waffen BATFEces started carrying out the orders from their new Gruppenfuhrer.

You may laugh if you like, but it remains a fact. The right/left scale goes from total state on the one end (the furthest left extreme), to the total non-state on the other (the furthest right extreme). Since I am neither an anarchist nor a totalitarian, I don't advocate either extreme, however I much prefer the right side of the scale to the left, i.e., I like things just about where the Founding Fathers placed us with the ratification of the US Constitution.

You said a mouthful. Anarchy, in fact, would last just long enough for some tin pot dictator (typically a mere front man for an oligarchy) to seize power. The best balance between left and right (for the purpose of preserving individual liberty) was achieved by the Founding Fathers.

Please don't confuse him with facts....

Hawkeye,
You made some interesting statements re:the left/right, would you describe the characteristics of a far right society, if you reject fascism as the expression of that far right ideology

some folks campfire names really seem to fit them well.


some not so much.

You have insulted my famowy, and the shaolin temple

I haven't read the entire thread but the one thing I don't understand is why, if the situation here was serious enough to warrant a break in by numerous BATF officers, did it take 6 weeks for them to act?

I know there are a lot of unknown factors here but it would seem if the situation was so serious it demanded the kind of action eventually taken then it should have happened a lot sooner.

I am trying to be neutral here but this one thing bothers me.

Jim

But if they 'd done it the next day after the tip came in people would be screaming about a rush to judgment.....can't win.

Yeah you can win-follow the spirit and law of the Constitution, SERVE the people of the United States in a way that citizens will support, and lastly get rid of BATF, which has no Constitutional authority, reduce the number of police in society, restrict their ability to interfere with citizens who are just going about their business, take away the SWAT teams which are assasination squads, have no place in a free society, reduce the kind and number of guns police may use, frankly I vote that they be required to go back to revolvers, this will make them attempt to resolve issues reasonably without going into a situation with a "shoot first" mentality, hold abusive police criminially liable for agregious violations against citizens like Ruby Ridge, etc., it's not rocket science

In this case, they may have been over zealous, don't know. We can't seem to get both sides of the story. This reduction in LE, practices, equipment etc, i guess it'll lead to peace and harmony and elimination of the criminals.

I don't know if you realize it or not in your fantasy world, but there are true criminals who prey upon the citizens. How are you going to control that with your reduction in LE presence across America? Not everyone carries a gun 24/7 and some probably never will as a crime deterrent.

Believe it or not there are places in this country that need an increased LE presence to decrease response time and increase service to the citizens.

Bull, there has always been crime, there always will be, leftists have been preaching that guns are evil, and we need to give up our guns and let law enforcement protect us, paramilitarizing the police, and LE has gone along with all this self-serving bs, why wouldn't they? We pay them high salaries and perks, buy all their toys, so they can use it against us like Ruby Ridge, for which they are practically immune from criminal prosecution,
It is not in the interest of police bureaucracies to give up power, they use fear to justify their activities, most of them full well knowing they cannot justify many of the practises these very same cops in this channel FORCE upon citizens on a regular basis,
if you weren't disarming the citizenry then citizens would/could protect themselves,
laws have been enacted that create whole new classes of criminals, guess what-you as a gun owner are IN one of these criminal classes and it is getter worse, and may get much worse before its over, the police prey upon the citizenry in a Police State and have, along WITH the republicans gone along with putting more police in every aspect of society-you cannot have limited government and a police State at the same time.
I think every citizen that reads this thread should be asking themselves the real question,
WHY WILL THE COPS ON THIS CHANNEL REFUSE TO PLEDGE TO THE PRINCIPLES OF SHERRIFF RICHARD MACK?????

Because he's just another politician looking for his next paycheck.

Well, that's a SUPRISING answer coming from you Ltppowell, I'm SO suprised, [censored] you very much

JOE CITIZEN

I'm from the "Live Free or Die" state and the Lt. is from Texas. How much disarming do you think we're in favor of?

If I had my way, everybody who could carry would. Lots of sheeple that want nothing to do with it.

You've shown your azz, though, as far as what you are. It's actually fairly funny.

George

It takes Federal law enforcement agencies that long to do anything. Everything they do has to be supported by operational plans that must be approved by Washington D.C. before they can proceed. Things that a local agency can do in minutes takes them months. Federal laws do not fall under the jurisdiction of State Laws. There are some that are the jurisdiction of both. You will never see a Federal LEO make an arrest without warrant unless assisted by State officers.

NHK9

Better believe I've shown my arse, and all you cops on this channel have shown yours too, I stand by what I have said, if you're in LE you are a SERVANT to the people, but we all know that's generally not how you act, when you pull people over for some silly traffic stop, and carry on the way you/we all know you do, especially if it involves citizens with guns,
I find it fascinating that still NO COPS IN HERE HAVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY PROFESSED THE PRINCIPLES OF SHERRIFF RICHARD MACK

Well Mr. they aren't disarming folks where i reside. It must be a Ca. thing!! (no disrespect to the good Ca. residents on here)

Oh BTW your not invited to relocate to the SE, nor are you welcomed in the PNW, where many in your area code have ruined many areas of Wa/Or.

Your reduction in LE concept at the local level, in many areas in this country, will do nothing but increase the crime rate. The whole world isn't paved in concrete, just in the environment that you live. There are places in this country that LE serves a duty besides LE, called public service.

Myself and many in my profession have helped save the lives of citizens through the use of defibrillators and CPR and basic emergency medical care, while waiting for EMT's to arrive. But you don't ever see things like that, because all you do is watch the flippen TV.

Higher salaries in LE? I know of places that LEO's are only getting paid between $10.00 to $12.00 per hour and are paying anywhere between $400.00 to $700.00 per month for family insurance.

pal you have about as much chance of me being concerned about your welcoming committee as the e-coli up your arse, stuff it
bully for the people in your district, if LE is behaving re: their Constitutional rights, all well and good-that's what they are paid to protect,
and you wouldn't know jack about the rest

I will repeat: My statements and opinions, here and anywhere else speak for themselves! Citizens with guns is a GOOD thing. I am a citizen with a gun, my family is made up of citizens with guns, my friends..... Are you getting the picture yet?

You are obviously not able to separate the men from the job. Your mind is obviously made up about everything already. It's been, and will continue to be, fun.

George

I do it professionally. That means for money.

Lets look at the facts,
You are officially a policeman, you therefore work for the state, you get paid to enforce not only the law, but the practises and policies of your department, you have a legal responsibility to report illegal behaviour, since right now a number of laws purporting to have legal authority in fact are in contradiction to the Constitution and therefore have NO authority,
You are the physical enforcement arm of the governement and enforce these laws,
you can't have it both ways, like you seem to want it,
yet you keep dancing around this youtube video by Richard Mack

* Exactly, you violate people on a regular basis, for $$$ thanks for clarifying that

If the truth be known, this is the first time you've ever heard of this Richard Mack. You probably didn't have a clue who he was until you saw it here. I think what you want is a free pass on crime, and use the Constitution as an excuse to commit it.

The majority of LEO's in this country play by the rules regarding the Constitution. We don't like to be sued and don't want to live under a bridge. You watch some crap on TV or YouTube, and think that's how it is all over the nation.

The example you showed of LAPD or that of LASO, what have you done about it? It occured in your AO, are you going to jump up and down on the LAPD Chief's desk or that of the LA Co. Sheriff's desk? Probably not, you need to lead by example. But you won't, it's easier to piss & whine on the internet.

He has to whine on the Net. His ankle bracelet keeps him at his grandmom's house.

What bull, the majority of LE follow the Constitution? Give me a break you goon,
Yes I just recently learned of Richard Mack, what of it? It is his IDEAS that are great, I don't know him personally but it doesn't mater, I didn't ask you to vote for him, I asked you if you pledged yourself to the principles he is preaching, have you even watched the video?
I see you are impuning his character, not that it has any bearing on his message, but then again so many of you turkeys go gutter in here I'm not suprised you would assasinate his character, while continually sidestepping the real issue,
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO PLEDGE TO THE PRINCIPLES HE PREACHES????


"It is interesting to note that criminals have multiplied of late, and lawyers have also. But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain

fixed that for you...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I've watched the video. I didn't hear him saying a darn thing that the majority of LEO's and LE administrators, including Sheriff's aren't already doing.

The vast majority of Sheriff's that i am familiar with play by the rules regarding the Constitution. They don't like lawsuits, because that's money that has to be paid out and not used for LE activities. Plus, it doesn't look good to the citizens come election time, when you have X number of dollars that have been paid out during your term of office.

Don't let Richard Mack fool you, he was a politican first and a lawman second. If he wasn't he'ld of never been elected to the office in the first place. All Sheriff's, no matter how sincere, are politicans first.

Do they take Fed. funding in such thing as Fed. grants, yes they do. They know as does the County Commission and the County Mayor(if you have one) that this is the only way to increase personnel and services at this time, without raising property taxes in their county.

Is it robbing Peter to pay Paul, yes it is, but the citizens don't see a tax increase in their local property tax, and they're happy about that.

I'm sure the guys from the Motorhome Diaries
http://motorhomediaries.com/
were glad there were at least 3 cops on the scene to make sure they could violate them faster, sooner, and more 'safely' for the policemen (and we know that rights must be violated because the safety of the officer is paramount in a democracy) ,
a thread btw i have yet to hear any of the policemen on this forum protest as unconstitutional behavior on the part of LE http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3036711/page/0/fpart/1

HAHAHAHAHA. Too funny Bob. I have read this whole thread and have had several good laughs (at Zens expense). You guys are downright tough.

Zen....the majority of Police Officers are Civic minded. They follow the LAW. That is their job. That is what they are paid to do. The laws were made by officials elected by the voters in this country. Right or wrong, good or bad, like it or not, as long as a law is a law they (LEO's) have to enforce it until it is changed. There are some on the job that add in their own little extras. They are the ones that do not need to be there. They are the few that give all a bad name. I have no doubt that George, Pat, and the other LEO's on here are the type of guys I would want on my side in a jam. You can't group all cops together. They are individuals and think individually. They are citizens just like the rest of us.

I would never be an officer. I don't have the patience required for the job nor do I have the temperment. Concerning the raid......I have to withhold any opinion until the rest of the story is told.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I like being a public servant. Speaking of that, when did you guys (the public) elect zeN as your spokesman?

Dunno the specifics of the case really matter much. Such actions by BATF are the stuff of sparks that could set off a larger event. Much larger. There are so many possible outcomes to what happened here it's silly, not a one of them good. Say for example, the County Sheriff gets wind of the warrant service and intercedes based on prior knowledge, and SCOTUS precedent? Fine mess brewing there Ollie....

The USA and and any other free society has to have laws or the country and any one living in it couldn't survive. When you have laws you have to have people willing to take the job to enforce them. With that said the ATF shouldn't exist or any other government agencies to enforce unwanted gun laws on the citizens of this country. The 1968 gun act should never have been pasted and the government should stay out of private citizens lives. There are good police officers and bad ones . I don't believe because you wear a badge you have the right to act like god and think you can do as you like with no respect to the average citizen. Some police officers sometimes forget the people they think they have all this power over are the ones paying their salary and supporting their families. No matter how many laws are pasted they are only obeyed by the honest citizens and they seem to always be the one who get abused the most by these laws.

Well Jim,
We are coming from different points of view but at least you argue like a gentleman, I can at least respect that:)
The responses from some of the cops and their little bitches in here speaks volumes about their attitude toward citizens and their rights,
which is my purpose for commenting on these subjects, to bring this to the light,
I could truly care less what the suspects in this case, that is LAW ENFORCEMENT think about it-they are SERVANTS

It's not a matter of me rejecting anything. It's just so.

A far right society is what the Founders gave us. Extreme decentralization of government power. Separation of powers. Checks and balances. Strictly limited (by a constitution) central government. Private sector handles the vast majority of matters. Local self government on the vast majority of matters that require governance. The Federal Government's powers look almost exclusively outwards toward the rest of the world, e.g., foreign policy, foreign trade, diplomacy, the military (primarily only the Navy, as there would be no standing army, per se).

Primarily only the States and local governments look inwards towards the citizenry, and are responsive to the will of their local communities. No effort is made by government in the way of social engineering. That's not the role of government. Neither is providing a safety net. That's for private charitable concerns.

States would have significant power to check abuses and usurpations by the Federal Government by direct appointment of US Senators by State legislatures/governors.

The only internal matters with which central government concerns itself are such things as coining real money, providing laws which regularize interstate commerce (prohibited from being used as a pretext for banning certain private behaviors or possessions, as such things are strictly State and local concerns), establish a court system, establishing weights and measures, etc. No direct taxation of state residents by central government without apportionment. The Federal Government is primarily funded via duties payed by foreign companies participating in our markets.

Read Federalist No. 45: http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa45.htm

PS Were I a Founding Father, I would have included, at least in my own State's constitution, a prohibition on annual taxation of real estate, which is clearly in conflict with the very notion of private property rights, which are essential for liberty. Naturally, any goods produced on private property would be subject to reasonable taxation should that be the will of the majority of residents (Under this scheme, however, limits are imposed by a natural order of things, since at a certain point of taxation, production will cease, and that's a decidedly undesirable consequence for a government dependent on taxation for support). Private property itself, however, would (like goods) only be subject to local/State taxation at each point of sale.

That's correct. PUBLIC servants, not INDIVIDUAL servants.

Bingo!

Again, funny that he talks about arguing like a gentleman but can't do so himself. I have yet, in my posting history, to refer to anyone as a biotch or, for that matter, insult somebody's mother.

George

Ltppowell your elitist condescending attitude and motivation for doing what you do ($$$) is already on paper, you think of yourself as a servant about as much as Janet Reno did

+1

You, sir, are a man after my own heart.

Servants are not the same thing as slaves.

Methinks "zeN" has this agenda of hate towards LEO 'cause he washed out trying to enter the field of work. Head case most likely. zeN is really very envious as well as jealous of cops.

I state this having looked at the nature of the threads new "Member zeN" has participated in.

I think he has over-estimated his ability as an agitator and under-estimated the contempt that sane people have for his inept efforts.

...and people wonder why Southern California gets a bad rap.

See, this is the truly frightening quote. If all cops believe this, then we really aren't that far away from a really bad place to be.

You see, I'm not all that worried about bad cops. I know that the truly dishonest cops are relatively few and far between. And while it is true that no-knock warrants irritate me and I believe they are an egregious assault on liberty, they are relatively few in number. And yes, the so-called thin blue line and the the seeming reluctance of cops to testify against bad cops is a serious issue, but it isn't a world changer. No, the idea that cops are there to enforce the law, no matter what it is, and no matter if they agree with it or not is the idea that can destroy us.

I don't really want to resort to the NAZI arguement, but I simply must point out that the Gauleiters in good old Deutschland were doing nothing but following the law when they helped round up the Jews. Did they make the law? Of course not. Did all of them agree with the law? Undoubtedly not. But as that it was the law, they felt duty bound to enforce it and if it were to be changed, then it was encumbant upon the people and the politicians to do so. By just doing their duty as they saw it, they were key players in one of the biggest evils ever perpetrated on the world. Had they but stood up and refused to "just enforce the law" who knows what would have happened?

But in any case, I am most afraid of the cop who is "just enforcing the law" because I don't trust the people making the laws. Next year or some year in the not too distant future, it may be illegal for me to keep an AR-15 in my home unless I license it and submit to massive regulation. If I choose to ignore the law, it won't be some criminal or some bad cop I must fear. No, it will be the good cop who is doing his job and just "enforcing the law" who will be the one to get me. He'll arrest me and even if he doesn't agree with the law or believe it is just, he'll justify his actions by saying, "Hey, I don't make the law. I just enforce it. If people don't like the law, they need to vote enough to change it."

In this country we have some image of tyranny and it always involves faceless men who put their bootheels on the hapless faces of a supine populous. But in reality, tyranny has never come to any nation in that manner. The rank and file instruments of that tyranny were the good people, your neighbors, the so-called civil servants, and the police who simply believed that they were doing what was right because they were just doing their jobs as they saw it. A lot of evil can be hidden behind the saying, "I'm just doing my job."

excellent post Coss

Right before we held presidential elections.

Jim

+1

He could have been tried as an Adult.

I actually agree with your post also, other than the fact that it looks like you are quoting me, which you are not. Pretty neat trick though.

That sounds all good on paper, but what about the reality. Let's say as an LEO if you don't work for an agency that's civil service, union or some other form of job protection. You serve at the pleasure of your employer or are in an "at will" state.

The admin. comes to you with a warrant to serve that you really don't believe the probable cause. You also feel that the affidavit was made up, but can't prove it. What do you do refuse to serve it?

Most agencies have the right to fire you for insubordination. What do you do throw away your career with that agency and your future career with another agency? Oh you can hire an attorney and attempt to sue them.

Seen that done, the LEO won the battle, but lost the war. He was still fired or screwed with so much that he quit. This with a write up in their personnel file that they were insubordinate, which makes them tainted to any other agency that they may apply to.

I liked my statement so much I did it twice.

Jim

My statement applies to a civilized country, such as the USA we live in today, and not Nazi Germany of years ago. I don't know any LEO's out there that would blindly follow laws that went against the laws of humanity as we know it. I am sure there are a few out there but they are the exception and not the rule.

Jim

this little whackoff is obviously that DPML guy come back to haunt us....he tried to hide it at first but you can tell

Where do you draw the line? Are violations of the 2nd Amendment "against the laws of humanity as we know it"?

Do you honestly think that Hitler took power one day and then said the next, "Okay, we're going to round up the Jews"? Read you history, that isn't how it works. First you find a group that you don't like (Jews, gunowners, take your pick). Then you start villifying this group in propaganda. It is subtle at first, but then you can start picking up speed as it starts to take effect. Then once you have everyone more or less thinking this chosen group is a bunch of evil doers and malcontents, then you start with the real oppression. And then, the police, even if they don't agree with it, they will generally believe that the people who are the objects of the oppression generally deserve whatever happens to them. It makes the "just doing my job" line of thinking go down much easier.

And of course, things go much better if there is a catastrophic event that can be laid at the feet of maligned class of people. Of course it is impossible to prove, but I'll bet you that 15 years ago there would not have been a single person on this board who would have agreed that it was okay to waterboard someone, anyone, in order to get information (assuming they knew what waterboarding was). But after 9/11 most on this board believe it is justified in order to possibly save American lives.

Who knows what the next 15 years will bring? Who knows what the "the laws of humanity as we know it" will be then? Let there be another Timothy McVeigh style attack and you can bet that the people on this board will be generally classified as suspect by the government and the public at large. Will we be any different than we are today? No, of course not, but the rules for dealing with us will have changed substantially.

Would the argument that committing a crime was in fact obedience to an employer and saved his job be justification for a criminal? If something is wrong, it isn't a justification that one was simply following orders or doing your job.

you over at zen's house smoking the stupid bong, Hawk? I'd expect better from you.

why don't you show him how to use spell check while you're over there?

I wonder if anyone has a factual number of the total LEO force in the USA? That includes all branches & ALL Peace Officers with the exception of active duty Military. I would be interested in knowing.

Jim

apparently almost never for a non-violent crime in Conn....see my link earlier on their policies

he's supposedly a forger

You've got some good points Joe. However, my statements are based upon today's events.

Jim

Well, let's take today's events and look at them.

It appears that the man in question was a convicted felon. Most likely it was for forgery and it was nearly 30 years ago. It would also appear that he had never gotten in trouble again and that he had no indications of any violence.

So, having possession of firearms is illegal for a felon. Yet, the facts as we understand them make it clear that he most likely wasn't a threat and would have cooperated if given the chance. Yet, they busted his door and executed a military style raid. Why? Would this have been done if he had been suspected of forging more checks? I doubt it.

No, because this was in Connecticut and it was the ATF, you can just about bet your bottom dollar that those agents had an inborn prejudice against private ownership of firearms. The overriding tone of the society there and their own training leaves them with a deep suspicion of firearms owners. Therefore, it is okay to use maximum force when executing the law because firearms owners are a less than desirable class of people. The thinking is that while it may be a little excessive, it is necessary because everyone knows that firearms owners are crazy and that they are not good people. If someone gets a little hurt or their rights violated a bit, it isn't a good thing, but then again, they really shouldn't have any guns around either.

So, I guarantee you that sort of thinking played a part in the way this went down. And in the end, everyone of those guys who made that raid will go home to their wives and their kids and be good family men. They aren't monsters and they won't be when they are kicking in the doors of people on this board sometime in the future.

Thank you.

Would you mind reproducing in a post one of his statements of political belief that you would have expected me to disagree with? Thanks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
People commit crimes all the time at the request of their employer, think Mafia or gangs, they know what the results of the refusal will be. It's a lot more then losing their job.

In the case i stated you don't know if the facts are correct in the warrant or not. It doesn't seem right, but you better serve it and let the courts decide if the warrant has standing.

Because you darn sure know if you refuse, you'll be out the door. You have the luxury to pick and choose your clients. You don't have to take a case, you just don't get paid for it.

In LE unless the LEO's are very well protected by job protection, can be history in a hurry. This just based upon refusal to follow orders.

You can write about it all you want. There's a big difference of how it should be and how it really is. I figured you'ld of learned that in the Army.

The number in relation to the population of the country would be enormous. The Founding Fathers would have classified it as a gigantic standing army in the hands of government officials, and an equally gigantic threat to personal liberty. The only thing they feared more than that was the establishment of a national bank and fiat money, but not by much.

Exactly! Very well said.

I think all his rights should have been restored by now since it has been 30 years. I don't think it is right to deny a person their rights after they have proven themselve. However, if I were the one going in to get him I would have handled it in whatever manner it took to get control of the situation as quickly as possible. I feel confident that the majority of officers killed never dreamed the situation was that critical. They are still dead.

Had they suspected him to be an armed and accused of any crime I would think they would handle it in a blitz style to get control.

Tell me honestly Joe. Would you walk up to an armed convicted felons door, knock on it, hand him a search warrant, and then let him run loose while conducting your business with him knowing he might go back to jail forerver? Honestly now? I know I wouldn't even if he was the most saintly man in town.

Jim

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The USDOJ has a formula that they base population in a town/county as to if that community has enough LE to respond. I don't remember what it is and don't even want to guess. The ratio isn't that high regarding LEO to citizen IIRC.

The Fed. Govt. LE agencies are a different animal, they're only concerned with Fed. crimes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This isn't directed towards you TXBatman:

My concern is local agencies city/county/state. If you live somewhere that it takes your local LE to respond more then 7-15 or more minutes to your door. Your understaffed, you know it and your city/county LE administrators know it also.

If it takes your LE awhile to get to your residence, it'll take your emergency med. personnel as long or longer. You local LE will probably be at your door in a med. emergency quicker then the EMT's.

So when your down or one of your children is, and LE rolls up with a defibrillator, and other med. equipment. It's not the time to make donut jokes.

I live a long way in the country so response time is fairly lengthly. I have an open door policy with the Wardens in my area. They have the combunations to my electric gates. I appreciate them and the other LEO's. My Son is an LEO in Ft. Worth.

What I was getting at is that the number of renegade officers out there is extremely small when compared to the total number of officers. It is kind of like small plane crashes. You hear about them all the time. Compare them with the total number of flight hours and it is relatively a small amount. We would never have time for any other news is we talked about the number of car crashes every day.

The same is true of Law Enforcement. We only hear the bad because the good news just doesn't sell and if reported would take up a huge amount (if not all) of airtime.

Jim

The latest total was approx 650,000 including state police, county police, special police (state and local), municipal police, and sheriff's departments.

Good analogy.

"What I was getting at is that the number of renegade officers out there is extremely small when compared to the total number of officers"

That has been my experience, also, but if even one time in your life you get crosswise to one of those renagade officers, your life from then on is ruined. A renegade LEO has no morals, no compassion, no intregrity, will lie to convict you, then keep on lying to protect himself.

A renagade LEO better describes a jack booted thug than any words I can think of.

A good LEO is just that, but a bad one is bad beyond you wildest belief.

Over the weekend, a man was shot and killed by LEOs in the restroom of a local Wall-mart, in Canton, Georgia.

I don't know any of the details, only that it happened.

Supposedly, someone saw him carrying a handgun and called 911.

One thing that occured to me is, what if an off duty LEO, in civilian clothes was seen with his off duty gun, or even if a plain clothes officer was seen in a public place wearing a gun, and someone called the police.

Would that off duty or plain clothes cop be in as much danger as a private citizen with a carry permit?

If he was from an out of town department, and not recognized by the local police, I would say he would be.

Who said anything about letting him run loose? You go up to his door, knock on it, hand him the warrant and tell him he is coming with you and that he is under arrest. It is that simple. The guy has not been in trouble in 30 years, he isn't expecting any trouble. He'll come peacefully.

We're getting crazy in this country. I watched the History Channel show on Operation Valkyrie (the plot to kill Hitler) the other night. I was struck by how civilized the Gestapo was compared to our police. Seriously. They went to arrest German officers, men who had been involved in plotting to kill Hitler and men who were certainly armed. Heck, many of them were wearing pistols when they answered the door. Yet, the Gestapo sent two agents who would knock on the door and ask for the officer. When he came to the door they would tell him he was under arrest. The officer knew the nature of the regime and knew he was a dead man. Yet, these Gestapo officers on many occasions allowed the condemned men to go say goodbye to their families. Would that happen here today?

Heck, in most instances even when they went and rounded up the Jews, they would knock on the door and tell them they have five minutes to get down to the street. By 1941 or 42 these Jews could have no illusions about what lay in wait for them. Yet, by and large, they peacefully went to their deaths.

We have thing horribly messed up in this country when it comes to law enforcement.

Not to dredge up painful memories for those from the area, but one of the examples that sticks out in my mind is Providence PD shooting one of their own. There have been others, but that one will always hit close for me.

As an off duty LEO, even in my jurisdiction, I would listen to EXACTLY what the uniform was saying and do exactly what I was told.



You and I have had dust-ups in the past, but the above is exactly what I was trying to articulate at the time.

George

ltppowell - thanks for the explanation of the probable reason for the delay in action being taken. I never worked LE so have no knowledge of how these matters work.

Jim

The guy has not been in trouble in 30 years, he isn't expecting any trouble. He'll come peacefully.
++++++++++++++++++++

That remains to be seen.

NHK9:

"You and I have had dust-ups in the past, but the above is exactly what I was trying to articulate at the time."

George

You shouldn't have used articulate in your explanation. You should know us Georgia rednecks don't understand those big words.

Next time, explain it in simplenese.

Let me tell you a little tale. It was my son who first attacked me with his bare hands, then with a butcher knife.

A few weeks later, after my wife and I told him he was no longer welcome here, he was in a police chase south of Atlanta. We got the call late at night from a GA State Patrol Sergent. They had chased him down and forced him off the road. He got out of his car holding another knife, and five State Patrol officers held guns on him, telling him to drop the knife, which he did.

I can prove this, because I have the incident reports from all five officers.

His Blood Alcohol level was .232, nearly three times the limit for DUI in Georgia.

But, the officers did not shoot him, although he was begging them to kill him. They loaded him in an emergency vehicle and took him to the nearest hospital. He had hurt his hand by busting out the windows in his car with his fist.

After being checked in the emergency room, he was put in the mental ward at the hospital. Some officers would probably have taken him to jail, exactly where he did not need to be.

After that, he was taken to a mental hospital. He has had a few ups and downs since, but he has been in drug and alcohol treatment for about 6 months now.

But, this is what I wanted to tell you about. When the Sergent called me at home, I talked to him for about an hour, and I also talked to him two or three times over the next few days. He is the one who sent me copies of the incident reports, because I had explained about me being arrested, but my son was the one who attacked me.

This Sargent said that he could testify that my son was fully capable of threatening someone with a knife, because he had seen him do it.

I mentioned that it sounded like my son was trying to commit "Sucide by Cop," and the Sargent agreed with me. He said if he keeps on like that, sooner or later one of these small town cops are going to do it, and I believed him. Hopefully, with him getting professional help, that won't happen. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't taken any drugs or alcohol in over six months.

Here is the impressive part. Although he led the State Patrol on a chase down I 75 for several miles, pulled a knife on 5 State Patrol officers, had a blood alcohol of point .232, they did not even charge him with anything. Not even DUI or anything. When he was released to the mental hospital, he was free to go. Although they could have legally killed him, they did not even give him a speeding ticket.

You cannot beat a professional LEO like those five are.

However, when the local police pulled up during the incident with me, he was also holding a butcher knife and they could smell alcohol on him. They also pulled guns and made him drop the knife, but I am the one who was arrested and taken to jail.

For all the good things I have to say about the Georgia State Patrol, I cannot say that about the bunch of idiots who arrested me. Of course, they could have legally shot him, too, but there were several bystanders around, and the police had to move some of them out of the way in case they had to shoot.

I cannot offer any proof, but since my incident, I have heard many things about this police department--all bad. I will agree.

My guns were locked in a safe, in a closet, and concealed behind some clothes. The safe remained locked during the entire time. The Sargent who arrested me said that I would get the guns back after I was cleared. They took the guns for 'safe keeping,' except for one, a SS M700 with a 3.5 X 10 X 50 Leupold. The others were two pellet guns a ML, and an SKS and an antique pistol.

They did not give me an inventory of the things they took, as Georgia Law requires. The M700 was the most valuable of the guns they took. Later, when I got a copy of the incident report, the M700 was listed as seized for evidence. The others were for safe keeping. I wondered why they did that. I looked it up in the law books and Georgia law states that anything seized as evidence in connection with a crime becomes the property of the police, if the accused is convicted. This includes pleading guilty to a lessor offense. So, this Sergent figured out a way he could get him a nice, almost new SS M700 free and clear. It has the J lock on it. I wish I had have had the pressence of mind to lock it. At least, they would't be able to use it even if they did steal it.

The DA has already offered me a plea bargain to a lessor charge, but I would still lose the M700, and possibly the other guns as well.

I turned down the plea for that reason. I said that if they would give me all my guns back, then I would accept, just to get out from under it, but the DA wouldn't do that. Maybe the police are going to share the spoils with the DA.

It really doesn't make a lot of difference to me. I have had two heart attacks and I wear a pace maker, so there is no point in me making any long range plans. Six years ago, my heart doctor said that my life expectancy was less than that of a person who had a normal heart, so I am a little surprised that I am even still here. Even if I don't plead out and I am convicted, I won't live long enough to serve much time in jail.

Anyway, from now on, use small, easy to understand words. What does articulate mean, anyway?

I have no dog in this argument but calling Isaac intellectually challenged or what ever term you used reminds me of someone that has their head so far up their a$$ they need a telescope to see out.

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I travel throughout the SE armed. I always have ID available. If confronted by LE, i'ld do exactly what i was told and how i was told.

Sure it would. Anyone who does stupid stuff is liable to pay for it. I can't remember how many times I almost capped good citizens as they came running across a yard toward me waving a pistol after reporting some sort of crime.

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Isn't that the truth. Dispatched to a prowler call and the homeowner who owns a scanner and lives two houses up the road is stalking around in the yard playing POPO.

Wonders why he gets a laser put on him and ordered to the ground till it's determined who he is. Dispatchers tell folks to stay on the line and don't go outside until we arrive.

Dispatcher will advise the complainant that we've arrived and then don't go out with a gun in your hand to meet us.

Methinks "zeN" is a reincarnation of.....a very cagey and angry little man. Known on other sites......

Nuff said.

To the point,
you cannot have a Police State and a Constitutional government at the same time, the mere presence of so many cops watching everything people do, monitoring every aspect of our lives is incompatible with a free society (rest assured what you say in here is being monitored, look at all the police here!).
One major issue in this discussion is the tired old line that LE has been spouting for generations-
"If it is the law then we are bound to enforce it"
this is just another way of saying
"I was just following orders"
and has as much validity (as in 'almost none'),
the attitude among police is that they are somehow empowered by God in this mission to enforce the law, which is thought of as some Divine Book that although it may be redacted by the Pope and his Bishops (Congress, local politicans etc.) the code is inspired-
nothing is further from the truth, everything from traffic laws, that penalize a citizen perhaps $300+ for some minor violation, which is actually intended as revenue generation (inasmuch as that is true this conduct represents armed robbery by the police from the State), to aggregious examples of people being arrested and imprisoned for carrying a firearm, when our Constitution CLEARLY says we have a right to BEAR arms, with many other individual examples that could be cited,
the point being that wearing a badge does not give LE the right to violate the Constitution regardless of what your agency policy states, anymore than Bush and henchmen had the right to break US laws and culture/customs to torture people,
so if you pull someone over and jerk them around, arrest them without good Constitutional cause you are engaging in a crime and you should be held accountable,
which is part of the uproar, you are not being accountable

That gave me a much needed laugh to start my day. I can't type the way I talk, the board would bleep it too much and it wouldn't make any sense at all.

George

You have some odd "work release" hours,son!

Good one Bob.

Jim

"If you pull someone over and jerk them around, arrest them without good Constitutional cause you are engaging in crime and you should be held accountable"

What do you consider "good" Constitutional reasons?

The majority of people that i have or have seen arrested at traffic stops normally involve such things as driving on a revoked license, outstanding arrest or violation of probation warrants, DUI, or obvious controlled substance violations.

Do any of these not meet your level of "Constitutional reasons for arrest"?

If aka: zeN is who I am thinking it is, he is extremely jealous of cops, or make that most anyone with skills and or a job?

If he is who I think he is, he is the type that would install a solar-panel in the shade , and then defend it's installation by taking 2 weeks to convince folks that 'heat-fade' is a solar-panel's worst enemy.

The Cricket (aka veN or zenII) can really crack you up, as his type never really has a good intention, hate and discontent all rolled up in an angry little man.

Amen!!!!

How often does he get banned here???

grin