If there are any on here, this is a good read! I credit Dave Ramsey from saving me and my wife from the misery and destructive consequences of debt.


https://www.biblemoneymatters.com/d...ew-house-his-debt-philosophy-and-giving/

Dave Ramsey haters?

I have yet to meet one. Maybe gold bugs?

i have followed dave ramseys advice for 25 years and my kids are doing it now and we are all debt free. its common sense that is lacking in this world and should be taught in all schools.

The Dave Ramsey haters are over on suzie ormans website. I didn’t know there was such a war between the two different ideologies but there is if you look them up on the net.

So teachers are responsible for teaching finances to kids ? What in the hell do parents do nowadays beside shuffle billy and Barbie between baseball and gymnastics?
Parents don’t know how to be parents. They just want to be friends. Friggin unbelievable.

Dave is way smarter than Suzie.

Yeah because she is ok telling people its all cool and shlt to take out a second mortage and pay off a car loan that youre choking on. And her minions like to believe they can still borrow their way out of debt and still keep their $60,000 infinity

I have taught a Dave Ramsey class and I am following the plan. But he isn't all knowing, no one can be. I am a financial professional and I disagree with a couple things but 99 percent of it works and is great

The haters are insurance guys and financial guys who can't put integrity before wallet. I know a lot of them. I refuse to be one.

On what points do you disagree with him?

I cant believe people get their impetus to be debt free from the desire to get on the radio and tell others how stupid they were in the first place.

I guess they think most are dumbasses drowning in debt as they were and they want to rub the faces of others in their superiority.

An you imagine thinking, 'Im gonna get rich on public radio by congratulating folks for not being dumbasses forever.

Somebody should make a radio show featuring folks who beat cancer.

Some gray areas when it comes to estate planning and life insurance. He talks about whole life being a ripoff. It's not but it's not a tool you use for every situation. So to be brief he says don't buy it. What he describes is a bad plan from the 60s not what's out there now. Also, he talks as if his plan will 100 percent of the time work. Well...yeah. if nothing bad happens. For instance, he has you do things based on kids being gone and being able to retire and making x amount in the market. Well...if grandma gets sick and moves in or kids come back home or you get divorced, etc. It would be a bad idea to stop having life insurance and paying off the house at 4 percent interest might make less sense than doing something else with the money. Or your health insurance goes up 30 percent and changes the whole thing etc.

He is talking to people who need to fix a serious debt problem and nothing he says will hurt them a bit. Just that when I see a client it's not a one size fits all, that's all. I am a fan and I really like Dave regardless of my tiny little difference of opinion

"good growth stock mutual fund" ummm where. I asked my accountant and even put a post on this forum no one could tell me how they got wealthy or knew anyone that ever has from investing in mutual funds. I listen to dave ramsey and he has some good things to say but his advice is for the masses. I have heard him tell people to sell rental properties that have 50% equity in them. so the people could pay off their personal residence mortgage, WTF? wait till people see the value of the property they had half paid off go up 150k in 5 years, after dave told them to sell it. then we will see how great dave's advice was.

he thinks you should only pay cash for real estate. I disagree, but I still say you better darn well be careful and know what you are doing. but that is not advice everyone can handle.

Dave Ramsey haters? You gotta have a screw loose to hate this man. Of course, the word "hater" is tossed around indiscrimately these days.

I listen to Dave every day on Sirius and he knows what he is talking about.
I have been looking for a used Nissan pickup 4WD for 10 months. I am picky.
And I was frustrated and, after ten months, had saved up the $31 grand to just drive up to the GD dealer in Johnson City Tenn. and buy a new one!

And my girlfriend said "Dave Ramsey will be mad at you...."

And a week later I found one, a really nice 2010 with just 40K miles always garaged for $15,800.

So let's break down why that buy made Dave Ramsey smile. Right off the bat, saved $15K. Just to drive the new vehicle off the lot costs $2 grand in depreciation. Higher annual tag tax and title, and higher insurance cost.

The new one will depreciate $9 grand in three years.

So in the first three years, it would cost about $20 grand MORE to buy the new vehicle than the used one that I bought.
And my cash is hard earned truck driver money and $31 grand is all I have. So the new truck would have made me broke,a nd I would have stayed broke.
Thank you, Dave!

Now I don't always agree with Dave. He says never to buy rentals on credit. Well my fiancee started buying rentals 35 years ago, got the down payment for the first one with $5 grand cash from the American Express card. That would have given Dave a heart attack.
But, she stuck with it and she did indeed, buy five houses all on mortgages, got the tenants to pay off the mortgages, and now she owns 5 rental houses and the cheapo is worth, according to Zillow, $341K. Total value $2.1 million and has a mortgage on only one and that is for only $76K.
Shirley is a real estate multi millionaire.

But Dave does society a big favor with his show and the two main things he beats people up for are, the screw up I almost made of buying a new car that I couldn't afford, even though I have the cash. And number two is running up huge student loan debts.
I got a 4 year degree and worked my way through college and didn't owe a dime, and never had heard of Dave Ramsey at that time I think he was still mowing lawns in high school then.

But he gets a guy on the show with a 4 year degree in Anthropology, with $48K in student loans, and the guy if flipping burgers at McDonalds and moaning about not being able to get a job and whining about his debt, Dave gives that guy an ass whipping! Which is well deserved! And Dave tells him, "If you are smart enough to have a 4.0 in college, you ought to be smart enough to know you CANT GET A JOB WITH A BATCHELORS DEGREE IN ANTHROPOLOGY. And he tells 'em, "If you want to get that degree, and have a good time in school and not borrow a dime, more power to you. But $48K in student loans? STUPID!"
Dave does society a lot of good.

Before I ever heard of Dave Ramsey ( still only know the gist of what he preaches...) I heard from my father...and I listened to him. Ive been debt free since I was 37 years old.....and I believe my dear old dad was right about it...

True. There are people who cannot handle their money without very strict rules and they get tangled easily and are addicted to debt. Those people are who he is talking to. The next guy in my door might be a surgeon who only has debt on his house and it might be stupid to pay off a 4 percent note when it's tax deductible and he could make 12 percent in his mutual fund with that money, etc. There's a reason we have to fill out suitability forms. The plan has to fit that one individual or its a no go

Because of dave ramsey, every vehicle I own is 15-20 years old









That sombitch 😄

All of what you said and most especially your last sentence. All of what Ingwe said, too. It should start in the home and by example.

There are definitely higher end financial planning situations where it doesn't make sense and there are situations where holding that real estate is better. But again he is talking to people who are in bad shape financially and putting them debt free first never hurts them. They might miss out on a real estate market move but again, being debt free is never a mistake.

Theres math and there's behavior. He is teaching behavior

You could have bought the new one for 31, drove it for 2 years and sold it for 27. $2000/ year is less than $200/mo.

All goes back to the misuse of free will, some would say. Behavior is the key.

Dave is an idiot. That is all.

Exactly. Most people can do basic math, but many do not have the self control to put that knowledge to use.

"earth to pahick...come in, pahick.... your ship just passed the planet Pluto, you are leaving the gravitational pull of our Sun, turn around now and head back to earth or you will leave the solar system never to return..."

He's made a lot of money while helping a lot of people. If that is what you call an idiot, then o.k. I guess.
Do tell why you are so much smarter than the rest of us.

Im firmly planted. Dave, and apparently most of you, arent.

I never said I was smarter than you. I said Dave is an idiot. If you think credit is bad, and youre too stupid to leverage credit, then yes, youre stupid and I am smarter than you.

Well congratulations!

Somehow I scrape by without having to do so, but you do make it sound cool.

Oh, you gonna leverage the credit. Yeah I had a neighbor who was doing that.
I am out in the woods in North Carolina. Had a neighbor, he lived on 40 acres. Real estate values were climbing fast, about the time he should have paid off his place, I asked him about it and he said he was $150K in debt. Matthew told me "Leverage. I got a $130K home equity loan and used it to buy 200 acres that I am now developing. Leverage, my boy."

Borrowed against the value of the house his wife and kids lived in.

And he made money on that 200 acre deal. And leveraged that to do the next deal. This was the year 2000, a recession hit that year and it all went to crap, his house got repoed and last I heard he was living in the garage apartment of his brother in law in Charleston, one bedroom apartment up there with the wife and 2 kids. Leverage.

Parents with school age children were not taught finances in school either.

Than your accountant is stupid and you should fire him. Of course, it's not surprise that you would have a stupid accountant.

He obviously isn't as smart as pahick.


Here's what I read in the Bible regarding debt. Good enough for me.

I haven't found anything leverage related in there so far.

Sounds like he made some bad deals. A lot of people suffered though the recession. Some were smart enough to prosper. Some, like youre friend, werent. Its unfortunate. It happens.

Let me ask you, do own a home? Meaning Good debt? Or do you rent, as Ramsey tells you to do until you can pay cash. As in BAD debt.

I own a home. Meaning NO debt. Never paid rent.

I bought cardboard when it was 16 cents a ton!

So you paid cash before you moved in?

No. I did have a mortgage for a short while. I never said I was perfect.

We had an Economics class for 1/2 semeter in 11th grade at my "hillbilly inbred skool in tn" and also we had a typing/accounting class too. Also agri-business too.

And we didnt make rice krispie treats in our econ class.

Maybe some other schools allowed intro to being a rodeo clown as a substitution.

Just sayin

So you leveraged credit. GOOD debt. And you think that was a mistake?

PA. It's important to understand Dave's audience. For the average person who's gotten themselves into trouble with too much debt, Dave's advise if very good. However, there is no one-size-fits-all solution for all people, and those who understand the Time Value of Money, and the proper application of the current cheap rates and how to properly manage that as part of a long term plan, there can be some opportunity for optimization, but again, that's not the choir to whom he's preaching.

As for my few disagreements with Dave, MJB covered them off nicely, but again, there are not really area for self help, but best navigated with a professional.

So you mean everyone was spending like a drunk college kid with Dad's credit card before Dave Ramsey came along??


He should have a Nobel Prize.

Yes. It was foolish. I paid interest to a mortgage company I could have kept for myself.

I understand Daves audience. And its hard to explain economics to people who are brainwashed. Daves pupils screw themselves left and right and dont even know it. They could have so much more in life, but the big bad devil debt scares the schit out of them. Shame.

No you couldnt have kept it to yourself. If you hadnt had a mortgage you would have had to pay someone, somehow to have a roof over your head. Since the mortgage was a mistake, renting would have been perfect in your mind, right?

I think you got that backwards. Dave came along because everyone was spending like drunk college kids with their own credit cards......

Did he come out of a phone booth?

Would you describe him as mild mannered?

This is especially true in a rising real estate market.

Nope. I did farm labor in lieu of paying rent, and could still be living there under the same arrangement if I wanted. I thought I told you I've never rented a house.

Probably right though.


I bet less than half of people who have credit cards should have them.

How great is it in a bursting real estate bubble?

If you are debt free, and those bad things happen, isn't it better than being in debt?

I am willing to take on short term debt with interest rates low for a vehicle. Which he is againt. But as said rates low, short term, and nothing to big.

The reason it doesn;t work, is it is hard to give up spending. You build up cash, and not much bothers yous.

I am not 100% on board. But what I figured out years ago, was if you have no credit card debt, all the money you send them every month you can spend. I take some risk, but not as much as some. Getting my mortgage paid off has been a goal. Ya sometimes think about bigger house, but being in debt my whole life sounds worse.



Mostly I listen to just hear how [bleep] up most people are. Make me seem ok.

I agree his investing advice is for the masses, who are in debt up to their eyebrows, and have no retirement investing plan, but many do have a 401K, which is a tool to help them achieve wealth.

Dave divides his mutual fund investments equally between each of these four types of funds:

Growth - FOCKX (+24.48% 1 year Large Cap)
Growth and Income - VDIGX (13.71% Q 1.90% 30-day yield)
Aggressive Growth - PRNHX (27.71% 1 year Small Cap)
International - FWWFX (17.34% International)

You did tell me you didnt rent a home. You said you paid mortgage, and paying that mortgage was a mistake. So in your mind if the mortgage was a mistake, renting must be good, correct? But now, you not only told me renting must be good, you told me you worked for nothing also. WHO in their right mind would work for nothing?!?! Even if it meant living rent free. How stupid. SO, tell us all how much you made/hr doing farm labor....how much your rent would have been if you just paid under that living arrangement instead.

Dumbest schit I ever heard of. Geez!

Yep. You're the genius.

That bubble made a schit ton of money for a lot of people I know. You dont win them all, but if you cant make money in a down market youre not as smart as you think you are. And exactly why youre a Ramsey ball licker.

I generally agree with this post. Life Insurance policies are much different than the ones on which Dave focuses. Problem is that life insurance agents have the same reputation as used car salesmen.

He is very risk adverse. Everything goes fine, ya can make money taking on debt But he is right, once you go without and save up pile of cash, and quit paying other people interest you can do alot too.

Work comp in WI pays 60% of your income. Get in a car accident cause some kid hits you, no income.


100% of people that foreclosed on, had a mortgage.

Show me one SELF MADE wealthy person that hasnt used leverage to get there. Hard work and ingenuity are just as important, but leveraging your assets is necessary unless you have a benefactor. Bragging about being debt free while living like a pauper is stupidity. Debt is a necessary evil. If you're not smart enough to manage that debt, or manage your personal finances, I sure wouldn't be broadcasting that.

While youre saving money, people are making money. I see a lot of mid 40s people sucking Daves pecker and end up with little retirement because theyre too busy "saving". Ya, throw away at least 3% and compound interest. Daves a genius isnt he?

You do know Dave Ramsey is rich?

Sure lots of people take on debt. But to say you can't is just saying you don't want to go without for awhile.

I am not as risk adverse as he is but alot more than many of the people filing bankrupcy.

Sure, he got rich selling BS and books. Not by saving, thats for sure.

Some of us where short the market and making money during the big bust.

Dave's done well by doing good. Good on him.

My 1st wife died in '06. We'd been making double mortgage payments to make sure it would be paid off by the time I retired. I got a nice death benefit from her employe benefit package, enough to pay it off. At the time, the market was paying very well and the advise I got here was to invest it all and keep paying on the mortgage because the return on investments was more than the mortgage interest rate. Instead, I listened to Ramsey and paid it off to be totally out of debt.
Within 2 years, the market crashed and I'd have lost most of it plus still had the mortgage to pay. Ramsey says to get out of debt and stay that way. I listen.

A general rule is that you can't invest borrowed money. The mortgage was borrowed so investing the death benefit would have been essentially investing borrowed money. It's a loser.

This is it in a nutshell!

Dave was a real estate investor in the 80s and went bankrupt using leverage. He learned his lesson and shared what he did to get back in the black

You obviously know nothing about Dave Ramsey financial advice.

Sucking peckers how? Why so emotional? Spending like a liberal are you?

I do agree, if you don't have self control, than don't bother. He has said same thing to people to.

But if you are paying big lots on interest to credit card company you need to make a lot on the market to overcome, plus subtracting taxes. I do question not getting your employers match. But I also get his point if you really apply yourself, it wont make a difference if you give it up for a bit. Though I have always got enough to get match. But that is just 4% where I am at, i I put in 7%, Granted that is a bigger return than you will get anywhere else. But if you are debt free you sure have alot of extra money.

More so than 90% of the other crap they teach, teachers should teach our kids finances. Heck, at least kids would be able to face life armed with something useful other than America sucks and white guys suck more. I've always maintained that schools should teach "real science", "real math", "real history", "real English; both spoken and written" and "real life skills" such as: what is insurance, what is our monetary system, how to buy insurance, how to invest money, how to buy a house, what is a rental agreement, how do you vote, how do you buy a car, etc.? You take those five subjects and teach them throughout a kid's junior high through high school years and this country would turn the corner really quickly. And yes, these subjects are also the responsibility of parents. As parents we have an obligation, in my opinion, to check on what our kids are being taught. Heck, I feel like I had to, regularly, correct/remedy what my kids were taught in school.

But not by borrowing. He is selling himself. Which is what we are all doing. He is also big into real estate. Investing money that is not borrowed too.

Not emotional at all. Just stating things as I see it. Too stupid to learn what schools dont teach you, so you end up smoking some guys pecker because apparently someone who is at the bottom of the barrel told you he is a financial God or you were on your last leg and just happened across him.

Ramsey is to finance what Osteen is to religion.

Let me ask you this, since Daves making out so well, how do you think he'd fare today if he had to start in real estate at the bottom, WITHOUT borrowing?

We have been in a period where interest has been low. That was not always the case, and will not always be. When will it go up, dunno. Ya I bought a sled at 2.75% over 18 months. But I also had enough in my emergency fund I could have paid it off. Not saying I doing it 100%. But I don;t take on much debt anymore. When rates go, will take a lot less.

I have done math and decided the interest was worth it to enjoy what I wanted. But I have also realized the more money I have, the less I have to borrow. Paying cash is nice.

What would the difference be? If you pay cash, you keep more of the money the renters give your or the buyer.

I do get with rates being low, the gap is narrower. But again, it comes down to risk. I have some economies swing and factories cut back, woke from a coma too with a reduced income while I healed. Though maybe you could argue as long as you have emergency fund none of that matters. If you have an emergency fund to ride out.

As a rule you should only borrow money to buy something that will either appreciate and or make you money.

Tax reasons.



Boats, spendy vacations, 24's on the Denali.....yeah, maybe save a little bit of that money.
(unless you really can afford it)


But do whatever you what, just no bail outs please.

Since over 80% of retirees do so with nothing more than a SS check, maybe more people should take Dave's advice. He hardly came up with anything much that is earthshakingly new, as many of us had parents or grand parents who taught us much the same things. Yes, I started out with some debt like everyone else. However, being debt free for the past 17 years has allowed me to earn and keep a heckuva lot more than I would paying interest and note payments. A guy can obviously weather an economic storm much better without any bills. What's funny is the more I give away, the more I make. Funny how that works.

The internet financial "know it alls" are usually the ones who are better at running their mouths than their personal finances.

What is your money doing for you sitting in the bank? Dont answer me, think about it. Research your options. Seriously take the time to look at every angle. Talk to a financial advisor. Hell, theres a few on this board. If you still come to the conclusion that your money is better off in the bank or under your mattress, well...good luck with that.

"I'm not against people having new cars. I'm against them having you.
We spend a tremendous amount impressing somebody at the stoplight who we'll never meet.

It makes you broke and keeps you broke!"

- Dave Ramsey

Haha! You have not seen my boat.

Not sure who you're talking to, but my money is in the bank, businesses, a home, etc.

Huh? WTF are you talking about?

You can use cash to buy real estate, invest in your business, or invest in market.

Dave tells you not to leave it in the bank, other than emergency fund. He says to keep that fairly liquid. The interest I am losing on that, is not changing the my life.

Sure I do. Save. Debt is bad. Credit is bad.

Daves an idiot.

Cuzzin'!

Waiting 30 yrs to save enough for a house IS changing your life. Good debt. Do you believe in it?

Dave is a car guy. Owns vacation homes, and toys . Just says to make your income is high enough to afford toys that go down in value


Again I am not saying people have not gotten rich borrowing. It comes down to how much risk you want to take.

It is like I tell the liberals when they ask why I carry a gun. I tell them I am not willing to take .000001% on my family getting raped and killed, but if you are, that is up to you.

Pahick. He did not say keep saving and not investing. He said keep 1000 bucks back for emergencies and once you're in better shape build it to 3 to 6 months of income. Then invest like hell. No one said keep shoveling money to the bank at 0.000001%.

And that's good advice for people who live between the ends of two monthly paychecks.

Why do you need to wait 30 years? Maybe you should buy a house you can afford. Wife won't let you?

He also said he is OK with mortgage debt. Just make it a 15 year note and when you're out of debt otherwise then pay it off next.

LIve within your means, is bad advice to some people.

Here's what Dave actually has to say about mortgages. A different story than phick thinks he knows.......

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/the-truth-about-mortgages

"The ideal way to buy a house is the 100% down plan—pay cash for the whole house. Sounds weird, doesn't it? But think how much fun that would be! No mortgage! No payments! If paying cash for a house seems too far out of reach, you can still buy a house if you make wise choices.

Save a down payment of at least 10% on a 15-year (or less) fixed-rate mortgage, and limit your monthly payment to 25% or less of your monthly take-home pay.

You can probably qualify for a much larger loan than what 25% of your take-home pay will give you. But it's not wise to spend more on a house because then you will be what Dave calls "house poor." Too much of your income will be going out in payments, and that will put strain on the rest of your budget. You won't be able to save and pay cash for furniture, cars and education.

Knowing how much house you can really afford afford is the difference "

No wife. Thats not the point. The point is, if youre saving money to buy, in the mean time youre paying someone else to live somewhere. Youre doing what Dave says, renting. Throwing money away. Most likely paying a lot more than having an actual mortgage. He says you need to have that down payment. Guess hes never heard of USDA loans. Renting has some real tax advantages doesnt it? Pfft! Hes a complete idiot.

I don't know any Dave Ramsey haters. But his advise is simple and rather common-sense. Nothing cerebral, but you can't go wrong with him.

It depends how much you are paying on rent. back to leaving within your means.

I bought my house zero down. I did the math at one point and realized I was not ahead compared to a decent house I was renting. I bought in 2006 right before the market crashed. Luckily I low balled. But to refi for a 15 at a low rate I had to put up cash. Now I look at what I owe and think about how my life will be when paid off.

When I had 30 year mortgage, there was no light at the end of the tunnel and tremendous interest. My payment is slightly less. So how do I have more money to invest? I would have been paying longer. Not to mention when your house is paid for, you don;t need much to live off if something bad happens.

I'll be able to spend my money on coke and hookers, rather than a mortgage. But whatever you prefer.

Pahick, several guys finally addressed what Ramsey says about mortgages. Obviously very few people would own a home without one, but he also encourages you to pay it off. I know I damn sure wouldn't want a mortgage in retirement.

I dont know your exact details, but if the interest difference between 15 and 30 was great I can understand. But doing a 15 when you can do a 30 and put the extra toward principal....well lets hope you dont end up on youre previously mentioned WC benefits.

The Fonz talked ol aunt Gurtie into a reverse mortgage. Now she can afford Puss-N-Boots salmon delight
😄😄

Not sure what is tough here. Having the money I was spending on mortgage sooner, is better. I don't want to retire with a mortgage. Sure you can borrow on 30 and pay off 15. That is same as taking 15, just worse interest rate. But either way you are paying off sooner. So either way better than paying on loan for 30 years.

No its not the same as paying 15, because the interest rate may be a little higher at 30, 30s monthly is lower.

Interest certainly is nice. Some people even go on about investing money they owe to bank cause they think interest rates make it worth it.

But it really comes down to monthly payment and buying a house you can afford. So regardless of interest rate 15 years is 15 years. Whether you commit to it on day one or pay extra long the way. Just going to cost you more.

So what is your point? Take a 30 year loan and pretend it is 15,works too. Ha???

15 yr should be max offered. If you can't afford a 15, keep renting till that changes. Interesting statistics here, if median means anything to you:

https://dqydj.com/retirement-savings-by-age-united-states/

"Never take financial advice from broke people" should be repeated often.

Ahh, do believe taking a loan with a higher interest rate and make a bigger payment is better?


If you want to pay house off in 15 years, you think is better with higher interest rate? You should try one of those calculators.

I dont need a calculator. Yes, a 30 is better. As long as the difference in interest rates isnt astronomical. Are you going to pay more? Yes. A lot more? No. Depends on how you see things. Do you think the higher interest of a 30 is a bigger risk than potentially not being about to make your monthly if something bad happens? You can have your 15, ill stay with 30.

I read his book in 2005 ish. Looked at the wife and said we need to pay off our debt. Lived frugally for two years and paid it all off, 2008 crash left me feeling good about the decision.

I dont understand your hostility to Dave. His teaching is common sense. Dave does allow a mortgage for your home. He wants people to be out of debt so they can build their wealth using their income, which is their most powerful wealth building tool. Its working for many people and works fine for me, although I am not completely on board. I have a truck loan. Once you get a rental by paying cash then you buy the next one faster, and the next one faster yet etc. It happens fast. You can build one heck of a nest egg if you dont have debt.

What Dave teaches helps a lot of people retire with dignity. Risk is a bad thing and many people go broke leveraging credit. Do you have more money than Dave?

I like most of Daves ideas. But, following his advice cost me a ton of money once. I parked most of my money and sold my real estate investments in 2008 right before everything went bad. I was looking for something to invest in and noticed some obvious manipulation in the silver market I jumped in with both feet when spot was around $9 an ounce. I probably bought a total of around 6000 ounces. I had monster boxes stacked in the safes and slid under the bed. I started following Dave and he said to sell all the metals and pay off debt. I said it looked like it was headed for a big run up but Daves guys said sell it all now and pay your house down. So I think around 2010 I sold most of it for little to no profit. Then within the next year it ran up to $48 an ounce. If I would have trusted myself and held it a little longer it would have paid off my house and everything else.

Bb

Dave allows for mortgage on his plan. Save enough down to avoid PMI and get a 15 year mortage is his recommendation. Then pay it off as soon as you can. You dont know what your talking about, and it shows more every page.

No, do you?

no, but I like the direction I am going. The point is, Daves advice is based on what he does. It worked for him and works for many.

Do you know how to increase money that you borrow? You do know what the word profit means dont you? Have you ever made a profit? Outside of standard "investments". Saving is good, dont get me wrong. Sitting on money that isnt making a profit is foolish.

Oakster................Lets say I gave you $50,000 @12%, total payback 12 months. Can you make money on it? No? Theres youre problem. Keep banking yours while the rest of the world is "working" theirs.

Some people need Dave Ramsey. But they sell themselves short. Risk comes in all forms, and if they need to eliminate risk until theyre debt free, so be it. But those people that need Dave Ramsey, those people that need to be risk free dont get far in life. Let me rephrase that. People that need to be risk free never reach their potential. NO ONE got rich, let alone debt free, being risk free.

I realize not everyone grew up making money. And many who did made it different ways. I made mistakes in my life that set me back, and health issues stopped my progress. I am not rich, not close. But I know how to make money off other peoples money. I cant make money by saving.

Some of you guys posting on here make BIG bucks. And you need Dave to get you out of debt. Pffttt!! A guy selling tomatoes along the roads got more brains than half of ya. The American Dream......more like a fuggin wet dream y'all are livin.

Wanna get outta debt? Take RISK!

Here, heres a damn market report, open to the public.

http://www.masondixonautoauction.com/marketreport.html


Autos not your thing? Pick something, anything. Learn to make money. Apparently you arent making enough to support your current lifestyle.

I can't believe I'm reading this.

Even at modest rates for both, say, on a 200k mortgage, that's potentially pi$$ing away 15k.
Sounds like you want piece-of-monthly-mind vs. the risk you're so readily recommending to others.

I like Dave Ramsey. Good advice!

Why can't I make money investing cash?

I have never watched or listened to a single show of his. I am also not in debt. I think finances are intuitive to anyone who is responsible. The concept isn’t hard at all, to me. The most important things? Live beneath your means, and aggressivly save in the right vehicles to help growth, especially above inflation.

Don’t hate him. Just don’t need him.

Me too.

What he preaches oughtta be sung from the rooftops.

Sounds like my old buddy that was going to get rich daytrading back in the late 90's. He made some for a while but when things went south it cleaned him out, he's living in a shack and running a backhoe now.

Everybody's a financial genius when times are booming, eventually the boom stops though and when you're leveraged to the hilt it's not fun.

I have taken out long loans and just set up the payments to be like a shorter loan. I get the point of having secruity. I do now how much a couple points can mean, and have refied my house even though I had to put down cash. Though you shouldn't have a 2 point difference on 15 to 30.


I agree there can be more secruity, but also question walking the line of more house than you can afford.

He doesn't like the risk in investing in metals and single stocks. Sure in that instances you might have been better. But if it took a dive you would not. Again he is very risk adverse. I carry a gun every day, because I am not willing to take .0001% risk. Some peope will accept higher risk of family getting raped and murdered,

But I also think you are not looking at the whole picture. Once you paid your house off you had the money to invest in the market. So you have to figure that in the equation. Or you took the oney you were paying on debt and did something better with it.

People have one big, and lost big,betting one horse. I am not saying its bad within reason. But I don't more than I can lose. It is gambling.

I had my debts paid off except house before I listened to him too. I agree it is an easy concept. No silver bullet. I do listen for the enterainment. He even acknowledge many of his listeners are. But it has made me less risk adverse than I used to be. Filled me with the idea of paying my house off.

No longer on the radio station in my area. I just get in these discussion, cause they pop up, and say I do agree with his simple plan, though I have tweeked it and veered off a little.

I read an article yesterday that said Fidelity alone now has more than 168000 clients with portfolios worth over one million dollars. Sounds like there might be something to it.

When my son was 5 years old, he dictated a letter to Louis Rukeyser : "What is a mutual fund?"
My son was a self made millionaire before he reached 30.

I never taught him how to save and invest.
I did tell him the reason he was going to daycare was so I could make money.

[/quote]
I read an article yesterday that said Fidelity alone now has more than 168000 clients with portfolios worth over one million dollars. Sounds like there might be something to it.[/quote]









A million dollars used to be the benchmark for being wealthy, not so much anymore. If you do the math a million in assets paying a realistic return is what it takes to retire.
Hell, in certain areas i.e. Calif. a school teacher can receive a pension that equals having a million in assets.

To be honest I am surprised Fidelity's numbers aren't much higher?

Ramsey's advice is great for the average guy. But as others have said if you want to be rich you have to take risk.

My advice is to only consider advice from someone that IS successful.......

My wife made the mistake of telling her mom to buy me a Dave Ramsey book last year for Christmas. I had never really known who he was or what he was about prior to that..She had a problem with my spending on hunting stuff.... Well now I have to try to hold her accountable to the budget and plan laid out to aggressively get out of debt. She's not 100% on board with my 180 in attitude. Dave Ramsey's book, and also "Rich Dad Poor Dad" completely changed my attitude. I wish i would have woken up 10 years ago. I could be debt free now and sitting pretty damn good.

When I bought my house interest rate was 10.75%


Paid it off in 3.75 years. I looked at the statement how much we’d pay in interest and decided I could send the bankers kids to college or mine. I chose mine.

Family income was less than 100k in those days. I don’t regret it. We own 2 single family homes, 1 duplex and 1 condo all piad for these days.

Getting ready to buy a commercial building that we will have to finance some. Plan is to pay the note off as quickly as possible.

We’ll probably never be very rich doing things the way we do, but we’re comfortabke and sleep pretty well at night.

Like many I was influenced by family long before I ever heard the name Dave Ramsey.


My grandparents were products of the depression. We’ve not had a real prolonged economic downturn in my life though 2000 was a bit of a doozy.

But imo just like having a gun, it’s not for when everything goes right why I feel the need to be armed, it’s for that once in a lifetime oh chit moment

I see being debt free as a similar scenario. If the chit hits the fan economically I’d prefer to be debt free, just as if the chit hits the fan socially I prefer to be armed. Ymmv and that’s the beauty of it, we all steer our own ship

I'm not rich, nor will I ever be. I don't have the acumen for business, and am too chickenchit to gamble my family's future on imaginary goods in the stock market. My hat's off to them that can though. I have listened to Ramsey on the radio, and I can see how his advice would work for some folks, in some places. But not a rural lifestyle, and certainly not in my specific zip code. I got a little excited until I started hearing what percentages to go to what, etc.

Mans need are few; his wants are many. Gotta remember that sometimes in life, and live within your means.

As you say much is about balance. No one here wants to be known as the richest ole boy in the graveyard. But so many spend that way far too early in their cumulative years.

Where I live in the Seattle suburbs, Amazon has flown over in a B52 and bombed the place with money.
A building lot of 1/4 acre is worth 1/2 $Million.

Where I hunt in Eastern MT, a guy with a net worth of $1M and social security checks is .............the upper middle class in a cowboy hat.

Clark you ain’t chittin about Washington state and the reachable areas of Seattle. Prices on the Peninsula have steadily climbed from just last year. I checked out some places in Forks just last month and,,,wow. My buddy told me to get a reasonable deal there to wait until a seattleite got disenchanted after the rainy season and wanted to bail out and get rid of that second home. Never buy in August.

Dave's advice is valid and probably beneficial to those who need to get financial guidance from the radio or the internet. I never worked a job I didn't love but put in several years of 16 hour days to get the education necessary to shape my own future.Bought our 1st house on the GI bill and still live in it. Never financed toys or vacations but spent many weeks camping w/ the kids all over the west. Put 3 of 4 kids through college w/ out student loans. We have been financially independent for more than 20 years.

What's the point?

Have a plan, work it hard. keep a positive mental attitude and avoid weak and negative people.

If you have to work find a job that suits you and that you enjoy. Become the very best at what you do.

Never think that you are good enough, strive to learn and improve.

Value experience over possessions. Live life as if everyday is your last.

No risk, no reward.

Don't believe anything that you can't prove for yourself.

The point being that there is no simple response to long term situation in a fluid economy. Frivolous debt is destructive and should be avoided but understanding the value of investment cannot be overstated. If you have dependents it is essential that you maintain sufficient insurance and an emergency fund before you invest or acquire debt. Financing depreciating items should be minimized. Worst case planning is key.


mike r

Not a hater but I do see him as a carnival barker, a hondler if you will, with something to sell.

He's doing well for himself.

g

Damn, Mike, this needs a stickey at the top of the page. Well said.

Great advice. I would add two things.
1) Don't sign anything without reading and understanding it.
2) Don't invest in anything that you wouldn't be able to explain how it works to someone with no knowledge of it.

I don't hate Dave Ramsey but I do think his smugness and air of superiority works against him. Its like being debt free is a cult or something. Debt financing is something I've used to my advantage repeatedly in my life and so have millions of others. To hear him talk about it, you'd think we were engaged in devil worship or human sacrifice.

The people who dont like Dave Ramsey just dont understand the value of no debt. Cant change em, dont try.

Its like the anti gun people, no way can you talk them out of it.

I must say I love it when they use credit cards for the points or have a mortgage for the write off, priceless!

Even when I had a mortgage, I could never beat the standard deduction....never have figured out how it was such a benefit to have one? Maybe needed a much bigger house and payment for it to help?

Ill not say another word about your God. I will say this though, and ive said some in other threads. I come from a huge family. My grandpa was rich beyond what most would imagine. He never worked for anyone else but himself. And out of 17 siblings, everyone except one did the same. After the depression they all set out to make their fortunes. After the war, the boys all started where they left off. Making money.....with other peoples money. Eventually they all had the opportunity to use their own money, but they didnt. The risk wasnt using other peoples money, but their own. Again, they were all essentially debt free, but chose to acquire debt to become even greater.

An extremely successful business, that other business rely on, 15 farms(eventually 17 before his death), all on anothers dime. Passed down(unfortunately not to me) to the next generation who are keeping his ways alive and all not a care in the world, financially.

A lot of you seem to be the product of todays society and education system. Never learning how to make it on your own. Leveraging good debt can make your wildest dreams come true. It did Dave Ramseys. Though youd rather believe he made it on his own cash, zero debt. Foolish. Extremely foolish.

All toys don’t go down in value. My Winchester/ Colt collection has done almost as good as my old Porsche collection. Striking while the iron is hot has made me financially independent.

My situation exactly

I saw lesbian Suzie Orman yelling into my TV screen, "WHEN YOU GET DIVORCED, YOU TAKE HIM FOR EVERY CENT YOU CAN GET!!!"

Money in the bank for me = An emergency fund (as recommended by Dave,) and enough cash for discretionary spending. I keep some in a safe deposit box as well for my wife's security blanket/in case the banks fail.

BKinSD . . . just my opinion . . . but your post comes off as a bit smug.

He's right about debt, but he has absolutely no vision when it comes to the proper uses of insurance & annuities. He's just dumb that way.

The only people I've heard touting annuities and whole life insurance policies are getting commissions for selling them. Go ahead and give us your best sales pitch.

Not true. They are tools in my tool box as well and they're wonderful where they fit. Just not for everyone.

FWIW, I've not listened to DR a single time, nor read a single one of his books - but happily debt free.
I'm beginning to think you and blackheart were separated at birth.

most baby boomer parents are so fuggen in hock that they can't comprehend what dave is saying and will be destitute in their later years unless mom and dad leave them a pile of cash. i'd rather have the schools teaching this type of thing than half the horschit they do now.

i don't agree with everything he says, such as:

no credit card - always have a CC, just don't use it unless absolutely necessary and then pay it off asap

invest only in growth stock mutual funds - this is highly dependent on your place in life. good advise for someone with 20-30 years until retirement but not good for someone in their late 50's.

what i do agree with:

go into debt only for a primary residence. debt for rentals is asking for bankruptcy unless you really know what you're doing and are lucky. ask all the wanna be real estate tycoons who lost their ass in 2008.

3-6 months expenses in nonvolative investments. i like a years worth, but i grew up with depression-era parents so i am paranoid.

pay off debt smallest to largest. good psychologic method even if the math doesn't always add up

following his advice with my minor adjustments has set me and my family up quite comfortably. i know people who made more than me and are living paycheck to paycheck while living in a big expensive house, driving fancy cars, eating out all the time and going to fuggen hawaii on vacations. they will be fugged when they retire and i will be able to continue to live a nice comfortable life and leave my kids not only a legacy in money, but financial knowledge.

insurance is not an investment. period, end of story. the only people who make money on that are the schitheads who sell it. look at the real ROI for those vehicles and then compare them to a good portfolio of mutual funds and real estate. no comparison.

Very true with low cost ones like Vanguard offers and others like Fidelity and T Rowe Price have. Very worthwhile consideration once a person has maxed out on the tax deferred instruments, IRA, 401k and others.

Pahick, from the above it appears you came from quite a privileged background, such riches and all.

Your musings would be much more readable and appreciated did you stop lacing your breakfast cereal with C-4. You ain’t impressing too many here.

Now,,,if and with all of the numerous ‘suckings’ you’ve included in this thread means that’s how you got yours, well hell, Bravo. Leverage, indeed.

I always maintained enough injury/ life insurance to be sure that my kids would be able to complete college if they chose to and that my wife would be secure in the event of my demise or catastrophic health issue. It was unpleasant to write those checks but it made more sense than making boat or credit card payments. When my LIQUID assets exceeded my needs for the future I quit paying for insurance. Life is not static and circumstances change and should be anticipated and planned for.


mike r

If you don't like being debt free you can always go back in debt.


I do have credit cards. I like not having to carry lots cash or balance checkbook 100 times. Granted I keep enough in it, I don't have to keep track.

I do think he is right, when you pay with cash, you think about more. Maybe if just took out massive piles of cash I wouldn't think about spending. But when I take out a few hundred at time, I think about it more. Not saying I don't spend it still.


Not saying fortune doesn't favor the bold. Just saying it is a lot of risk if you have a famly. I also think you can still get wealthy without as much debt. Save up and gamble that money.

But a paid of home is secruity.

Insurance can and does have a potentially very important place in Estate planning as in tax free transfers to heirs after death.

As far as the ROI you mention, there are low cost Variable Annuities. Mine has returned handsomely.

From all that’s been said on this good thread, there’s many ways to skin the cat pending personal situations. But, overall, Ramsey is correct, debt is bad.

It takes money to make money...

Also takes hard work and no debt to have money to make money.

No, it really doesn't. There are lots and lots of ways to make a buck. People will pay over $100 per hour to have you clean their gutters. Ladies making that much organizing closets for people.

Now, money is handy if you want to make money without working....

Doesnt have to be yours

I dont have to, they got it all figured out....you know, being debt free and all. Funny though how many were screaming when the housing market went belly up.

This thing called ‘collateral ‘ mean anything? Unless, of course, you’re born with a silver spoon in your azzz and then you have access to all kinds of money. Other people’s money.

If you were my kids I wouldn't give you a dime either.

Ya, collateral helps. You dont need it though. Its called credit. You know, that bad debt Ramsey always talks about. EVIL!!!

Youre not going to give your kids anything when you pass? Too poor? Or you were pointing directly at me?

Ahhh, yes, yes. That credit without collateral. Who’d a thought about that but you!!

Go back to lacing your wheaties with C-4. You were more believable then. Now,,,not so much.

Youre telling me you never had credit without collateral? Seriously? GTFO!!!

I am a young guy and I don’t know why but I cannot stand the thought of owing money to someone. I’ve had two car payments in my time, got rid of one for something I could pay cash for and have cheaper insurance and kept the other until it was payed off. Right now I own 3 vehicles, all at least 15 years old, but reliable enough to get us back and forth from work and to go on a 1400mi vacation trip last month. Insurance on them runs $70 per month for all three. I do owe on our house, which bugs me, but I’m paying every bit I can afford on it and should have it payed off in less than 5 years. I try to keep some emergency money around in case I break a leg and can’t work, or like last week I find myself layed off.

I’m doing odds and ends jobs right now picking up a couple hundred here and there, waiting on the phone to ring for some good jobs I’ve applied to. I have about 3-4 months worth in my emergency fund and we’ll be fine. Now the other 18 guys who got laid off, I don’t know what their finances look like but there sure were a bunch of new pickups in the parking lot at the plant right before the layoffs. I’m betting more than one of them are sweating over how they’ll make those big car and insurance payments.

I doubt I’ll ever be wealthy monetarily, but I’ll have a roof over my head and some old beater truck that I’ll be able to knock around in. And I’ll sleep well knowing that what I have nobody can take from me.

I used to listen to Dave when I was plowing, 15-16 years ago. I think there are times when his advice isn’t for some folks, but by and large it’ll keep you out of financial trouble if not making you rich. I particularly think it’s great advice for young people just starting out who don’t really have any financial experience.

This


Ahhh, yes, yes. That credit without collateral. Who’d a thought about that but you!!

Go back to lacing your wheaties with C-4. You were more believable then. Now,,,not so much.[/quote]


Youre telling me you never had credit without collateral? Seriously? GTFO!!!


[/quote]

Jeez, what a fuggin big mouthed idiot.

Please continue , like the monkey climbing the flagpole , higher he went the more he showed his azz.

You sound like a very wise young person. Don't ever let anybody convince you that debt is good unless it consists of someone paying interest to you. We also drive older paid for vehicles and don't owe a nickel to anyone. It's a wonderful feeling to be debt free and to be able to help others. We have everything we need and a whole lot that we just want. I would sure have to know a lot more than I do about this pahick than I do before taking his advice.

DONT take my advice. Seriously. I want people to live their life the way they know how. If they feel like Ramsey gets them ahead, great! If they understand credit and can use it wisely, even better! I dont want someone in debt up to their ears borrowing money and going further in debt.

I want people to think. I want people to research. I want people to realize there is good debt and bad debt. I want someone to learn how to get 250k in available credit, without collateral, and use it to gross a million in a year. Most people arent business savvy. I get it. I dont want them stuck in a rut. Thinking being debt free is the answer to all their problems. That theyll be able to retire, without worry, by paying some institution(You know, the people who make money off OTHERS money) theyre hard earned money and go nowhere. Yes, some people wont be able to handle risk. But almost everybody can handle some risk. Theyre not doing that following Ramsey.

Alright, im out.

Happy to say I am not a fan and have done fairly well without.

He is a bit to optimistic about market returns and a few other things.. but his advice is easy to understand to people who are not that accustomed to finances.


His debt snowball was one of the few things that got me started.

We are also taking a 30year loan on our new house.. will be paid of after 8 years.

Such altruism. Refreshing to see.

You’ve been “out” since you came here.

What Ramsey says is just common sense. The thing is, many people today LACK common sense, or didn't have a grandma to instill common sense. Or maybe their grandma was a broke ass liberal.

Around here in my town with military base of 60,000 you really see a lot of foolish young people that cannot manage a monthly plan, can't balance a checking acct, live week to week THRU a check cashing advance place, borrow pizza and movie or tattoo money against their car title. An E-4 that thinks he needs a $25,000 harley, just maybe not so smart

Exactly right. The vast majority of people under 40 in my experience had very little (if any) financial education. Ramsey presents it in a way that it can be understood and applied by those people, hence the term 'baby steps'.

The problem is not just that people are uneducated, it's that if they are educated, they don't have a good understanding. I have a degree in finance (and an advanced agree in Economics), and I understand all the machinations that Pahick evangelizes about. It all works as long as the law of large numbers applies: on average, you are going to do very well.

When you are small potatoes, the law of large numbers does not apply. As long as things go as forecast, you'll do very well. No unexpected layoffs, no child with Down's, no disabilities, no accidents, floods or fires, no divorces, and things go really well.

But, when you are small potatoes, risk is binary. It's on, or off. You win or lose. It's not playing blackjack where you can beat the house, on average, if you are educated about the game, you know your odds and you keep track of the cards. It's like poker and going all-in on every hand. You can be very educated, know all the rules, odds and strategies...... but if you're dealt a crappy hand, you're going to lose. And sooner or later, you'll get a crappy hand.

All Dave Ramsey says is don't play poker, play blackjack. No guarantees, but as good an odds as you'll find in the casino of life.

If true, there’s another factor, Dutch.

Back in the mid 90’s Money magazine ran an extensive article on personal financial planning. The gist was that the majority of American families spent more time planning their annual 2week vacation (in total) than they did planning for their financial future (in total).

I'm glad you picked up on that. I try to match the tone of the conversation.

Cowboy, there are some good growth mutual funds . As for me I would not put a dime in them right now. Wait till you get a good correction and then they will fly. I got rid of mine. I had FBSOX and FOCPX. Those are the tickers. I wish I would have kept them now but they bounce around way too much for me. ... and you have to put investments in the right place at the right time. Right now? Emerging markets are just coming off a 15-18% correct from the tariffs. You will very likely make money investing in them very soon. Two months ago in was Telecommunications, early this spring in was oil. Any energy ETF did very well since March and April. Get a Fidelity account and start small. You will make good money. Most people like CumminsCowboy dont give the market enough time to make money so they put it in rentals and are happy. They dont realize though that rentals are also a minimum of a decade to see some real gains . Sometimes the market is the same. I remember you posting you had a fund that didn't do well for a long time. Many funds dont do well. This is why ya spread things out. If you put all the eggs in one basket, and that is a dud fund, you will be unhappy .
As for Dave Rammsey , I never listen to him except one time. I also know he hates credit cards and sais noone ever got rich with a 2% rebate. I have been saving several hundred dollars a year with them for a decade. Aint rich yet but I have gotten about $3,000 back in the last ten years. I nest that money and the rebate money goes right into my Fidelity account.

I agree with some of what you say. Here's my end game. Drink the Dave Ramsey kool-aid to get out of my current debt (bad debt), so I am in a MUCH better position to take those risks you speak of (good debt). There is a middle ground here. And that's what I'm currently working towards.

Well said.

For reference . . . Bill O'Neil, founder of Investors Business Daily, and prolific trader and author wrote this advice about mutual funds in one of his books, "How to Make Money in Stocks," . . . "If you buy a mutual fund, never sell it!"

Here is an interesting read on long term wealth creation via the stock market. (Note: Dave does not recommend to start investing until you are debt free, except for your mortgage. He does recommend to contribute just enough to your company 401K to collect company matching funds. He says, "Don't leve free money on the table."


https://seekingalpha.com/article/42...t-way-overcome-biggest-investing-problem

As seen in these financial threads, there are a lot of folks who know a whole lot about investing. I have to wonder how many have a net worth at or above a million?
They can talk the talk but can they walk the walk.

Yes.

You?

Life insurance is in case you die too early and annuities are insurance in case you live too long.

As mentioned Life insurance is also useful for estate planning, but only for people that love their families.

I have life insurance. Term. It is to replace my income were I no longer here.

being worth a million is not the big deal like it used to be...…..I am into rentals......bob

Some folks are truly surprised when they add up all of their assets.

It s not the assets that are surprising, its the other side of the balance sheet that is surprising.

A poster earlier stated he read an article that Fidelity is claiming 168,000 of it's customers have portfolios of 1 million or more, how many investors does Fidelity have?
I would guess in the millions?

As far as campfire poster with 1 million in assets, I would guess many do but not the one's you would suspect........

of course we do have a few that like to let everyone know......

A quick search says the number is 4% of total population or an amount greater than 1 in 10 households with a net worth of 1m.

Seems like a big deal to me

Just Googled Fidelity, and it claims 27 million individual investors!! yikes, if that 168,000 number is true I would look to invest elsewhere

net worth to me is.....what you would have free and clear after you sold everything.....house everything......just standing there with cash.

I know some will say, your house is not an asset...but it is...…..so out of 10 households, 1 of them will be a millionare…..am I reading that right?.....bob

Many calculations for net worth do not include the equity in your home, from what I gather it depends on who is doin the figuring.

In my research I have found the 4% number stated many times, so apparently only 4% of the population has a net worth of 1 million or more.

I read just the other day the average home price in San Jose , Calif. has reached 1 million dollars!!

The personal financials I've had to fill out surely do include equity in your home as an asset because that's what it is. These forms were supplied by the bank, so they consider it part of your net worth as well. I've never heard or seen otherwise.

If your total net worth was 1 million you could buy a house in San Jose. Then lose it to the tax man because you spent the whole fortune on an average home, ha ha


But ya, JG you are correct banks count all assets.

Dats right baby

I go all out douche- I'll post a fuggin pop tart with a shot of bourbon, the rest of the bottle and royal flush all in the picture.

I bet it is all he can do to not post in this thread and brag?


Slumlord you are a chit stirrer....

who are you talking about...…..bob

I am loaded.....

I am not nearly a millionaire especially without the value of real-estate. It is foolish though to not count it. I have real-estate stocks and those are called REIT's. That counts but my cabin up north on the river doesnt? Sure the heck does if it is sellable. I could get 50K easy for it . I would have it in cash and that is wealth. About 90% of millionaires first million was from real-estate.

Counting your residence as part of your wealth is tricky because it is your home, you need a place to live.

The government has created this housing bubble with low interest rates and tax right off's.

Relying on your home to provide wealth is a mistake and that is why I made the reference to the million dollar average home in San Jose.

YOU NEED A PLACE TO LIVE regardless of your financial situation.

Lets say your home in San Jose sells for 1 million, you either have to move to a place with lower housing prices so you can pocket the profits, or lets say because your job keeps you in San Jose you simply have to buy another house and it is a wash.

That being said, your house is part of your wealth and when you die the kids will appreciate it.

Hmmm, loaded? are we talkin the same thing slave.........

Yes.
I buy some Captain Morgan Stock every paycheck.
The dividends are yuge.
Unlike MaHick,
I never borrow to buy the Captain.

Slave


P.S. I have sold body fluids.......
Who hasn't?
Dave said it was ok.

Aaaah Captain Morgan, I am a Jim Beam guy myself, but nonetheless an investment with real returns......... oh and no mortgage required...

Dave lied, selling body fluids is just wrong... unless you can get a good price...

BTW,
I am not a Dave hater,
But why does he want my CC payment
for $130 bucks?
I'm increasing my debt and he's the beneficiary..........
I can't get peace by racking up more bills so he can pay his taxes on the 13,000 sq. ft. cabin......

What's a "good price"?
How bout if I tithe on the price?
Dave good then?
Want pics?

Slave

Slave, no pic's, I am afraid you will post pic's of mom! ....... lord help us ....

ok...look at this a different way.....your house sells for a million, you own it.....you take the money and build another.....you spend 500,000.00 building a new one......you now have an extra 500,000.00.....put that money with the other money and or assets you have......one size does not fit all......I am a builder, I have zero in the market, but I use what I know with what I have......bob

Bob,
Yes i understand what you are saying. My point is the rapid appreciation of the housing market is artificial and can turn against you with a change of the economic wind.
Your example is interesting but relies heavily on an perception market.
I built my house myself, I did everything except the foundation and drywall and figure I saved around 50 to 60k. No where near the profit you describe?

Dave's big value to society is teaching people about mistakes that will make them broke for a long time, maybe for life.

The example I cited earlier, guy with $48 K in student loans with an Anthropology degree that has no value in the job market and he is flipping burgers at McDonalds. Well it is too late for that guy, but it is good for him to get bitched out on the air by Dave.
Because, among his peer group of Millennials, he is fawned over. He is a victim. His buddies are going to tell him to vote Bernie like they did and Bernie will erase all student loan debt.
No, Bernie ain't getting elected and this guy is screwed but at least he gets some belated fatherly advice from Dave.

But there are millions of people who listen to the show and hopefully there is a high school senior, or maybe a 40 year old parent, who will get this advice from Dave and not make the same mistake. You want to borrow $48K on student loans? Well then work hard in school and get an RN degree and you can afford to pay back that loan. A buddy of mine is an RN working in the cardiac cath lab in Atlanta, last year he was clearing $1750 a week.

Another thing that Dave harps on is new cars. Most people don't think about it, but a guy calls up, he is about to get his house reposessed and he and wife and 3 kids are headed for Mom-in-Laws house for an extended stay. Talk about a trip to Hell!
And Dave asks them about cars, the guy has a new $40K pickup that he owes $30K on, wife has a new Honda bought for $32K and she owes $25K on it.

And Dave points out to them that, on average, the payment on a new car is for $508 a month for 72 months. And Dave tells them the only way to save the house is to sell both cars and buy old junkers for $2 grand each.

Most people don't realize how much money they throw away on new cars, over the course of 30 years it is a fortune. So, many people listen to the show and are steered away from new cars. Dave says unless you have over $1 million in assets, you can't afford a new car.

I don't agree with Dave on everything as I said the girlfriend now owns $2 million in real estate on 5 houses, and she had a mortgage on every one of them.
Also Dave is nutso about NO CREDIT CARDS. Well, I have 2 credit cards. I pay them off every month in full, never pay interest and I have a credit score, my last Discover bill said, of 804. Credit cards are handy if you have a little self control.
Of course my credit score doesn't matter because I have not borrowed any money since 1996. Somewhere, Dave Ramsey is smiling.

you saved 50 or 60....that was in labor, was it worth more when you were done?...has the market gone up? I didn't say it was all profit.....it is a mix of profit and money that you put in...kinda like a 401k....you said the housing market is artificial and can turn against you with a change in the economic wind and relies heavily on a perception market.....like the stock market......wasn't that long ago the market was 5 or 6000.....you are right you have to have a place to live, so does everyone else....not everyone has to have stocks though...they gotta pay rent at least...….also our houses might be different, I don't know......last thought, build sell...build sell....build sell....quit when you feel like you have enough.....bob

Bob,
Yes values have gone up, so has replacement cost, so it is a wash. Oh, and I don't necessarily believe in the stock market at this point.
I do believe real estate is the best way to make wealth, just not your personal residence.

just not your personal residence......unless you plan it that way....were else can you reap the benefits of tax free money?.....not saying you, but a lot of people don't like the idea of moving....bob

BobMt,

Many people played the leap frog game during the last housing bubble and got burned big time when the bubble burst

If they got burnt they were in a house they couldn’t afford.

My SOP was to keep monthly bills low enough that if I lost a job, I could work about anywhere and make ends meet

It goes back to what many have said before. Spend less than you make and don’t try to keep with the Jones’s.

Ha. MOM tithes 100%. She's a giver.

Slave

P.S. She does love to barter, though.....tax free.

they did...agree with that......big difference between getting a mortgage and trying to upgrade, buying bigger each time and getting caught with your pants down....vs.....building with a small mortgage or no mortgage......if things go to crap, simply stay put till it turns around...and then sell.

also building and selling is not always a wash......sometimes you find a property you would rather have, or you wait for a good deal so you can sell and build again and pocket some money

irfurbar, what do you do for a living....if you don't mind.....bob

yes...….hard work and taking risk that you can stomach…...will pay off...if you get knocked down, try again......I have made good and have lost good......don't dwell on it...water off a ducks back.....bob

Is he asking for your "credit card" or your "debit card?"

Orange Oakie , your money threads are always entertaining. And BobMt sounds like you have a good formula for accumulating wealth. I think it proves there is a thousand ways to skin this cat. That is the beauty of America and the free enterprise system.

A toast to all the successful investors....;)

Trust me,
Dave (and any other salesman, for that matter) will smash whatever form of payment you send.

Slave

P.S. full disclosure, I actually purchased a Peace set for my 20 something daughter a few years ago. She is actually doing pretty well, so maybe some of it stuck.
I was already living some form of that lifestyle.

And some few made a pile off of that debacle, some serious coin, but it sure had it’s moments and no small amount of doubts thrown in until things came to fruition. Many late night discussions during and leading up to the payoff.

My question was focusing on whether Dave ask for your "Credit Card" or your "Debit Card." I was not aware that Dave asked for "Credit Cards" on his website, since he eschews them on his radio show, books, and personal appearances.

Paypal.

OK, you used PayPal. Did Ramsey advertise payment via "Credit Card" on his website where you ordered the merchandise? Just curious for previously stated reasons.

Old Toot,

Good for you making money in that situation. My whole premise is I believe it is risky and wrong to convince most people that home ownership is the path to wealth.

It is a path to security and protects you from housing inflation. But rising home prices is simply inflation. The only way that works for making money is to have the ability to relocate to a cheaper local.

I guess if you don't have kids a reverse mortgage may unlock the equity for older folks. If you do have kids leaving them the home when you pass can be a huge leg up for them.

I believe our government enables these real estate bubbles on purpose. They have chased most manufacturers offshore, crippled small business with regulations and expensive employee cost.

So low and behold we can produce wealth through your home. Too many ways for that to backfire. Timing the rise and fall can be profitable and I used to do it with commodities, the difference I could liquidate my position immediately. Real estate is a slow endeavor.

And if it is your home you may be locked in due to job, family etc.....

The crash of 2008 affected many people close to me and it ruined their retirement, and when you are 50+ yrs old time is not on your side to rebuild.

I cant tell you how many people I have encountered who sold their average house in Calif. for a bundle and moved to my local thinking they are hot chit money makers for doing nothing more than living in a liberal chithole. They drive up (inflate) housing prices and property tax's etc..... then to top it all off they try and turn it into the chithole they left.......

I know the people who made money off housing are happy, but the truth is it is much closer to a zero sum game than most realize.

None of what I said applies to rentals, commercial real estate and to a lesser extent paid for homes....

Much enjoyed your posts on the subject. Home ownership price appreciation can and often is tied to folks relocating to an area with more opportunity or like hurricane Katrina moving folks up to Baton Rouge from New Orleans. There’s many other reasons than just inflation that drives home prices.

Good point Old Toot, as most things in life it isn't black & white and regional differences are real. This has been an enjoyable thread and so far we have avoided the rancor that so often happens when discussing money , wealth etc....

Ohh, yeah? Well GFY!!! Grins!

If you’re in the Flathead Lake area you do know more than a bit about property and home values. I have 3 friends that semi-retired there.

the old one named toot beat me to a gfy!............i agree with you ..ALMOST all people should not use their house for anything other than to live in....for others it is just another tool ....really unless you are a builder or someone that can put in a lot of sweat equity...it probably is best to stay away from buying and selling houses.

good conversation.......bob

I don't like the turn this thread is taking......
Maybe it is time for girly pics?

Bob, I had a neighbor who’s home was paid for, took out a large equity loan and invested it in the stock market, all in. 2 weeks later an event named 911 occurred and he had no downside protection.

A Prof in my MBA program had a saying, "Debt is the Devil" - Cannot disagree
That said I would never borrow money to throw into the stock market. Just me.

I say get debt free, diversify as you invest wisely with what is proven. Some grow wealth in stocks, some in real estate. No reason why you cannot use both...equity in your home is one way.

MJ - I was a series 7 rep, major firm - started the week before 9/11. Never put my wallet first. Of 20 others in my branch, I saw a spread, a handful I deemed wise enough and honest enough to use them if I were a client. There are crooks in the biz, and there are some SOLID advisors/planners. It pays if you use a good one.

and that is plain stupidity......bob

Yo Bobmt

You don't by chance have of them illegal rivera's working in your "home builder bidness" ?

seems like a good time to ask


Just answer no

Sad stupidity. He is a well educated man, too. Wife is also

I listen to Dave Ramsey's show when I catch it on.

I don't understand why people have to call Dave Ramsey, or anybody else to be told that they're broke.

I pretty much had addition and subtraction down by the end of first grade.

The callers did too , they just don’t know how to apply it in the real world.

no...bob

I used to play Dave on our jobsite radio often. I was sort of trying to indoctrinate some of my rent-a-bums that were always hitting me up for same day pay.

Friend of mine wanted to prank call the show one time and make it sound like he was at the end of his rope and about to shoot himself. lol

A favorite segment is his "stupid tax" hour.

People talking about dumb stuff they've ever bought. Llamas, alpacas, monkeys, $1300 parrot
haha

I worked with a young man in his early 30's a few years ago who mentioned to me that him and his wife were $60,000 in debt on credit cards. This was at that Japanese owned factory that you folks have probably heard me mention,....tough place to work,...lot's of mandatory overtime.

I didn't say anything to him about it,..none of my business. But it occurred to me that he didn't own his own life. He was a slave. He was spending his entire life in that factory and probably was just barely able to pay interest on the principal on those credit cards.

I realize that everybody is responsible for their own actions. But there's something wrong with a loan system that will allow young people to just financially ruin themselves before their life is even started.

That student loan business that's going on right now ought to be criminal.

Even the Mafia loan sharks won't loan an unemployed 19 or 20 year old kid $50,000. But evidently any kid with a high school diploma can indenture himself for life with student loans.

Strong points, Bristoe.

There’s more than a few out there who’ve accumulated enormous debt by just plain bad luck like extended illness, etc. . For those there is compassion.

Well, considering that half of the people who retire do so with no savings of any kind, there's obviously plenty of people that can't do math.

It wasn't *always* the way it is now.

Back when I was 19 years old,.already out living on my own,...had a job,..

I tried to borrow $300 to buy an old motorcycle that a guy had for sale. Back then, a young man scratching by like I was couldn't borrow $300 to save his life.

Things have changed.

You’ve been talking to Pahick.

hmmmmmm,....I must have missed what Pahick has to say about it.

Back in this thread a ways.

Hey Dave-- I'm debt free!!!

My secret to how to live the good life is to not want anything. I'm being a little facetious,....but only a little. In fact, if it wasn't so much trouble, I'd sell off a lot of this stuff that I've accumulated over the years.

You have probably seen this before...

"The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least." ...

Like the homeless I suppose.

"OK, you used PayPal. Did Ramsey advertise payment via "Credit Card" on his website where you ordered the merchandise? Just curious for previously stated reasons."

Rest assured, Dave has never advertised credit card payment on his show.

Here's my rub with Ramsey. If everyone did as he suggests, the economy would absolutely grind to a halt.

People with some savvy and fire in their belly willing to take on some risk and leverage in order to build something are what makes this economy go and grow.

I carry no cc debt. Have a couple mortgages and a loan for a business purchase that is locked in at 3%. Other than those secured debt, I have none. No car debts, no student loans etc.

Am I in debt? Absolutely. Am I upside down with my debt? Absolutely not.

I could have sold everything out (real estate etc.) in about 6-8 years would've provided a decent little retirement, debt-free and comfortable. Being willing to take on more debt and attack this new business is allowing me even more opportunity and freedom.

as i've said here before, i've listened on and off for 25 years and it has paid off. granted i had depression era parents who didn't need DR advice to live within their means and passed that on to me. his advice is a good basis for how to operate your finances. i don't agree with with everything he says but his overall advice is correct. is it common sense? sure. but if you've lived around people who have never had parents with financial common sense, you would see where his advice is really needed. people with 60k in CC debt, 90k in student loans on a useless degree. owe 30k on a truck thats worth 20. 300k house that they owe 299 on. all on a 75k salary. thats the kind of schit that a hell of a lot of people see their parents doing and think thats the way to live. as i've said, his FPU ought to be a required class for all high schoolers.

I take the opposite analogy. If you have no debt, you have more $$$ to put in circulation. That makes the economy go 'round and 'round. Been debt free for almost 20 years now and there's no substitute, IMO.

JG you’ve got a damned bad case of good sense.

Explain how a 20 year old dies a millionaire without ever assuming debt. Inheritance doesn't count.

Begin at age 20,paying yourself first, eschew debt, Live below your means, invest wisely and consistently in low cost instruments doing dollar cost averaging .

Worked well for me by age 48 1/2. Ymmv.

An old gent years ago told me. “Boy, you like to eat rib-eyes regular?” Yes sir. “Well,,,1st you may have to eat hot dogs “.

I've heard that he preaches that a debit card is smart and a credit card is dumb. That alone is a reason to ignore him. I use the banks money for an entire month,pay for everything on it, and earn at least three "free" air tickets a year. Tell me again why I shouldn't use one?

I have listened to him for exactly about 30 seconds and he came off as a pompous azzhole and I shut him off. I don't need some blowhard douche to talk down to me. I don't owe anyone a penny in this world, and when I do, I pay them off as fast as I can, it's common sense, not a religion.

Dave points to the debit card for limitations on folks who have little self control.

Your method follows his line to a fine point meaning you made his case for him.

[align:center][/align]Well I'm glad there are people who need to him to tell them what should be common sense to anyone with two fingers of forehead. I guess the way he spoke to people just turned me off.

Actually, part of my dislike for Ramsey is that he turned a buddy of mine into an anal retentive idiot who now keeps a monthly envelope of money for himself, his wife, and his dog. He names his dollars. He is annoying to even be around anymore.

There are a bunch that you described. Last I heard on Fox Financial was that household debts exceeded the national debt.

Not quite, but close.....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

The Federal GOV, like most households has a spending problem.... NOT an income problem!

Muffin, Fox financial also said the national debt was dropping due to the newly instituted tax and trade polices.

you have common sense and self control. most have neither. thats why DR preaches the strict rice and beans sermon. i keep a CC too but only for emergencies or travel, etc and pay it off immediately.

So they can't borrow for college. Right off the bat, they're going to be making just enough to pay rent, utilities, food, clothing, cheap car, fuel, insurance. With the unbelievably low interest rates we've had the last 10 years, Ramsey's an idiot for discouraging folks from borrowing in reasonable, rational levels for a primary residence. Some idiot was bragging to me about being debt free a few weeks ago but rents a house that costs $200 more than a payment would be at current property value/interest rates. Debt free my ass if you have rent to pay.

Paid my own way but tuitions and books costs a lot less then.

he says a primary residence is the only time to borrow. also to save up 20% to avoid PMI, make sure your house payment only equals 25% of your take home pay and to pay it off early. all very reasonable and what i did with 2 houses.

and yes, you can cash flow a kids college. i did it. problem is that people want big cars, fancy houses and vacations in maui the whole time their kids are growing up. then when the kids are in high school they realize that the don't have schit to pay for college and junior wants to go to a 50k a year school. then they either hock what little equity they do have or let junior take a beating on a student loan. the parents who let their kid take out these giant fuggen loans are fugged up parents in my opinion. i have personally seen it. my daughter got her masters with 8k in loans and the rest her and my wife and i cash flowed. she paid off the 8k in about 9 months and is getting ready to pay cash for a good used car. meanwhile she has friends who have 100k in loans and a useless degree and bitch and whine about how they are going to pay for it while working a minny wage job.

Since Ramsey is basing his teaching on Biblical principles I wonder how many people he is leading into the idolatry of focusing on money. That isn’t to say that what he teaches is wrong or that good money management is wrong. John Calvin said that the heart is a factory for the production of idols. The love of money being call the root of all kinds of evil one could make a quick jump. As has been noted by the obnoxiousness that these teachings create in many people I’d lay a heavy bet, not a Ramsey principle, that a lot more than one would think become obsessed with money. But in a very very “holy”way of course.

Thou shalt not covet.

Lots of folks have said lots of things about money and goods over the ages and it continues.

Remember Reverend Ike? Ole Ike said “get off yo ass, get on yo knees and pray for money . You never seen a rich man robbing a 7-11 sto ,,so gets you some money “.

The thing about Dave is that, depending on how hard someone's head is, he can be just enough of a pompous azzhole to get through and help anyone.

Or “I luvs Jesus cause Jesus led me to Dave Ramsey”?

Compound interest. Living on less than you make. Invest $50 a week for 45 years in an index fund.

That is all. Result: $2,759,000.

Victims and snow flakes need not try this. You would have to turn in your poor-poor-pitiful-me card.

I wonder how the religion of money management sells to Christians in third world countries.

You think totally broke people don't have a moral problem with their two mites?

I thinks that it’s much more likely that American Christians quickly become lovers of money. Our culture teaches us this.

If you met Jesus you'd probably have a better attitude about everything.

I met him last week. He was putting EIFS on at one of my jobs. At lunch they grilled carne asada and home made tortillas with this avocado, cilantro, lime and radish salad with home made Salsa Verde.
My attitude was much better after a good lunch and a negra Modelo.

Case in point...


You gotta love this fugger!

That would change my perspective a bit.

At the same time, the white guys were cooking meth in the porta John. Cuss illegals all you want, but white people suck anymore.

I like,to get drunk in the morning too, then I don’t care whether we have money or not 👍🏻