I understand the statistical fallacy of overly depending on three shot groups. I recently found a load that really shoots in my Bobby Hart built 7-08, M-700..

140 gr. SGK HPBT over 42.5 gr. Varget, W/W brass and Fed 210 primers. Three (3) shot groups and not on the same day. They were .27", .4", and .64" for an aggregate of .48" for the nine shots. Not a 10 shot group, but close. Shot these groups on an improvised 4 wheeler bench. Will post pictures one of these days. Handy rig.

So, one could conclude this gun likes that load. It also does well (sub MOA) with 120 NBT's and 150 NPT's, but for some reason does not like 140 NPT's (2"),.

I've never killed a deer with a Sierra Gameking HPBT, but plan to do so if I get the chance. I hear they perform well. Will report.

Rifle weighs 7# 14 oz as shown in a Hunters Edge. Hart barrel has Rem sporter contour and is 23". Timney 501, Conquest 3-9x40 with elevation turret. I've posted this one before. This is currently my favorite deer rifle.

DF

A fine shooting rig for sure!

Nice rifle...not too light, but still an easy carry.
Bob

Nice deer rifle!!! I have zero issue with 3 shot groups for a big game rifle. Once you shoot a good number of them over a period of weeks or months you get the full picture of where your rifle puts the first 3 shots. I've never uses more than 2 shots on a game animal in over 25 years


Trystan

Anytime you can keep um under a half inch with a deer rifle.
Your doin good
Looks like a well thought out practical tool to get the job done.
Very nice.

dave

Thanks guys.

It handles and feels lighter than the scale weight. It's just heavy enough to hold steady and not be whippy, but light enough for easy carry. With a light weight Edge stock, weight feel more forward, although it does balance at the front action screw. To me, it's about ideal for what I use it for.

DF

Now, now. You know that shooting multiple 3 shot groups don’t mean anything.
You gotta shoot 10 shot strings to find out anything !!



Nice Rifle, nice weight, nice handling, GREAT shooting.

Jerry

I only shoot three shot groups for load development. After I get my load figured out. I shoot one or shots about a week before deer season. It’s the first shot counts the most.

Great looking rifle! One day I’ll realize that I’m generally over-gunned and buy something more pratical.

Did the groups hit in the same position relative to the POA? What would the composite group look like if you overlaid the targets?

John

Fine looking rifle which should serve you well. Not to worry regarding 3 shot groups imo, they are more than adequate for a hunting rifle. Target shooters may want a larger sample, but for hunting folks who are only going to shoot 2 rounds (at the most) at an animal , a 3 shot group tells you what you need to know. Good hunting...

Unless you are punching targets for score, it is irrelevant whether you shoot three, or five-shot groups. Three is all that will ever matter for a hunting rifle. As long as the load does it with consistency, it is all you need. Most of my loads are way more consistent that I am, anyway.

For me, three shot groups confirm zero and the overall health of what I have going. Plus I am usually too cheap to toss too many rounds down range with factory ammo. With handloads i usually shoot a bunch more.

I usually shoot 3 or 5 shot groups. Not all of us have a great big money tree in the back yard. Mine died.

I can't believe this is an issue. Three shot groups are a perfectly reasonable and sound way to test your rifle's ability to take game and overall accuracy consistency. What's not to like?

JMHO:

3-shot groups are fine to see if your hunting rifle/load is good enough for hunting.

For seeing just how accurate your rifle is, which necessarily includes comparing your rifle to other rifles of know accuracy, 5-shots is the universally accepted number of shots for a group. Of course, regardless of number of shots in a group, the more groups you shoot, the better.

Because there is some "bell-curve randomness" in the printing of groups, a 3-shot group size is not as repeatable as a 5-shot group size. Thus, a single 3-shot group is less likely to show a rifle's true accuracy potential than a 5-shot group. A good rule of thumb is that for a particular rifle and load, the 5-shot group will be *about* twice as big as the corresponding 3-shot group. In other words, a 3-shot one-inch group is *about* equivalent to a 5-shot two inch group. (Notice the word "about" is emphasized)

7- or 10-shot groups are even more reliable, but it is a case of diminishing returns, and the accuracy-minded shooting community has gravitated to the 5-shot group as the acceptable accuracy standard without going overboard on the number of shots required.

Regardless, if you are happy with your rifle's 3-shot groups, and you don't care about its 5-shots groups, then continue to be happy and go hunting, since the whole point of all this is to have fun (unless your a professional sniper where accuracy is serious business and you'll get laughed at if you start bragging about your gun's single 3-shot group).

Again, JMHO.

As we grow older (sometimes wiser) many of us tend toward more practical rounds, away from big boomers to get the job done.

With the 150 NPT, nothing (short of DG) is safe. The 7-08 will duplicate 7x57 performance and that round has a very long and impressive track record. The 7-08 has a pretty good track record itself.

And as oft quoted by our resident guru from the far North, "it's the boolit, not the headstamp". There's truth in that statement. And, where that bullet strikes the critter is probably the most important factor of all.

DF

When working up loads or just plain whiling away time at the shooting bench, I use 5 or 10 shot groups for a better statistical average. Sighting /practicing with a hunting rifle, 3 shot groups are my pleasure, especially with a recently acquired Ruger #1 which prints bughole 3-shotters and then starts walking the 4th and 5th shots upwards an inch.

All were centered, 1 1/2" high at a hundred. I never overlapped them. but POI looked about the same. Groups didn't shift enough to be evident.

Years ago, I bought a 40XB in .244. It came from Remington with an aggregate .38" target of three (3) shot groups, 60 gr. Sierra over 3031. That's the way they tested it. So, my thinking, if it's good enough for Remington, it'll do for me.

Now, if I had shot a 10 shot string, would it still be less than 1/2". I don't know, but think it would be pretty close. If I took the largest group, .64", as the standard, it would still be pretty good. And, my 4 wheeler shooting bench wasn't the best, just very handy.

DF

Fine rig you got there DF!!

The fact that you didn't shoot a 10 shot string consecutively would occupy about .00001% of my thoughts on the matter if it were me. I've done it the way you outlined for over 3 decades, whacked over 300 head of big game, and never looked back. Love the rig DF......awesome.

Nice rig.

Not a damn thing wrong with a 3 shot group at the bench to determine how much the rifle likes the load. These guys that think you need 5 or 10 shot groups to feel comfortable are just going overboard. That 3 shot group tells you what the rifle will do, shooting from field positions in a hurry, and breathing hard will skew your accuracy anyway but you know what the rifle is capable of. Shooting 5 or 10 shot groups from light sporter weight or pencil weight hunting barrels will take all day as they heat up and IME that changing barrel temp starts moving stuff around anyway.

Yep!!!
I even test 22LR ammo in 3 shot groups from my squirrel much to the dislike of members at RimFireCentral.
Works for me and that's what's important.

They work for me and that's what counts.

Yuuuup!

I don't carry targets in my wallet, but the .27" cloverleaf would be a good one to be flashing around...

DF

It seems like the rifles most in need of a good number of shots to better show the actual average point of impact are the least likely to get them.

And he would be correct.

One of the best statements I've read on this site was, "Joe average is over-scoped, over-headstamped and under-bulleted." Can't remember who said it, but I've always remembered it.

BTW, very nice rifle!

I've used "over gunned, over scoped, and under practiced" and I'm sure I didn't originate it.

No, it definitely wouldn't be less than 1/2". You said your largest group was .64", so it would be at least that big, and probably larger if the three shot "groups" were in slightly different places. It's just as easy to stack all three groups in the same target as it is to shoot them on separate targets, and putting them on the same target tells you more about where your true zero is.

Agree with you and StudDuck.

I guess we learn (some of us, at least) from years of experience.

DF

Zero/POI was pretty consistent. I've heard that you can about double your three shot group, going to 10. So, which three shot group do I double?

If I double the .48" aggregate, it's still sub inch. Double the .27", it's even better. Maybe I pulled the .69" group a bit on that 4 wheeler bench set up. It had a lateral spread, wasn't cloverleaf.

As long as it shoots better than minute of a deer, I'm probably gonna put meat in the freezer...

The rest, likely, is more academic Loony stuff than an issue to a real deer hunter.

But what else are we Loony types gonna be cogitating over...

DF

When i'm working up a load , I find a combination that groups to suit me ( 3-shots) I put up a target the next day and shoot one shot , leave target up and shoot one shot next two days. This tells me where i'm hitting first shot from a cold barrel . If conditions are different all the better , its a real world situation. This is just what I do.

I check my rifle like this:

AR500 by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

I shoot one shot from 200 yards holding on the center of the plate and a black spot appears where the reticule was when rifle fired.

I go back next day and shoot another shot which hits atop the first shot fired.

The third day....that shot hits atop the previous two shots!

.308 M700 Nosler 150 grain AccuBond 46.5 grs. Varget!

That works. Give a good idea of field accuracy. First shot, cold barrel.

DF

I never understood the need for 5 shot groups. If you need more than 3 shots at game, it ain't the number of shots in your groups or the rifle that's your issue.

I really like your rifle, just like a lot of the other respondents. And I also use 3-shot groups a lot myself, and think you are just fine doing so.
But at the risk of sounding nit-picky, your average group in your OP may have been .48" (though I think I got .44") but that could not have been your aggregate group.[i][/i]. Your average is just the size of the three groups, added up, and divided by 3. But the aggregate is the size of the nine shots comprising all 3 groups overlayed on top of one another relative to the same aimpoint. So the average will always be smaller than the largest group (unless all the groups were the same size), but the aggregate can never be smaller than the largest group. It could be the same, if the other 6 rounds in the two smaller groups all landed inside the extreme spread of the biggest, but normally it'll be larger. And the key is the aimpoints for all three groups have to be superimposed over each other so we get a true picture of the aggregate. The aggregate is the same as if you had fired all nine shots at the same target.
It sounds like you have a great shooting rifle and I don't want this to sound picky, but statistical terms have defined meanings and it's important we use them right because they are tools we use to make important decisions. Bottom line is that half MOA average group is nothing to sneeze at though - nice.

Cheers,
Rex

Good post. Here's a good read:

The trouble with 3 shot groups

Sure it would....:


You know how many damn times I've sent the first 3 into the same hole, while shooting 5 and 10 shot groups? Way too many times. But I do think every once in a while I'll just keep one of those 3 shot groups and not ruin it with 2 or 8 more shots...:



3 shots are just too easy..

I check mine like this:



When you can hit the 2" diameter target every time at 400 yards, you know you are dialed in.

Bingo....

Pretty much all my animals are taken with just one shot, so I only shoot one-shot groups.



:-)

That's a really good looking rifle DF. Love the stainless barrel and blued receiver. I'll bet it's a pleasure in the hand.

Instead of spending/wasting time on the bench like the paper queen, I prefer to spend my time like this......I've never come close to hurling 10 shots consecutively at any animal.

Cool rig DF! That's a great load and rifle you have there!

One more time: The number of shots you'd shoot or not shoot at an animal has no bearing on the accuracy of the estimate of actual group center and size provided by whatever number of shots.

I'm not arguing whether or not a particular person needs the "better math/stat" to do what they do in the hunting fields.

West Texas? Nice!!!!

I hardly ever shoot 5 shot groups, despite what others think whether it's relevant or not.

Another take on accuracy, or precision, depending on your definition.......

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...rd/Search/true/world-record#Post12760591

Are you trying to brag about not shooting very much?

Some of us actually enjoy shooting, and do it a lot just for the sake of practice and being good at it.

I’ve had much success with the .308 165 regular GameKing decided to try out the same but HPBT. Accuracy was just as good and took a doe with it this past Sunday. Offhand 80 yard shot, I hit her high breaking the spine and dropping her. Walked up and finished her off with a neck shot. Caliber entry wound and 2.5” exit hole on both shots. I’ll be hunting the remaining of our season with the load hogs and whitetails. I can take three bucks and as many does as the opportunity presents.

Quit guessing, it makes you look like a fool.

Damn fine rifle! I shoot three shot groups too. It just depends on how I feel that day.

At least someone gets it...

John

Actually is was three (5) shot groups. I found the factory target that accompanied the rifle. The groups don't overlap, so I don't know their protocol for shooting these groups.

DF

Maybe they were using a leupold, because they are all over the place, in regards to poi. Have you noticed it doing the same thing when you shoot it? This is one of the reasons some of us shoot 10 shot groups. It gives a better representation of your true zero.

Every time a 10 shot group thread or a scope thread comes up there is a disconnect between the hunters and the hunter/shooters.

It is okay if the hunter/shooter has standards that are beyond necessary for hunting.

It is okay if the hunter don't.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Johnny, I'd prefer to be called a paper KING, not queen.

Uncle johnny, I resemble that remark as well, until this year, and I bout burned clints barrel up on a coues deer!!😂😂 usually it's much less.😎👍

John, I do believe that buck is taking a nap...😂😎

Clean looking rifle DF. My go to 6.5-06 got rebarreled to 6.5-284 this year. Benchmark #2 in 8 twist. But looks about a twin.

Last 2 3 shot groups with 156 EOL have been centered on zero and stacked. .3" and .2". Will do one more next time I hit range and if 9 shot composite looks good will load up a batch for it.

Weighed mine, comes in at 8 pounds 12 ounces. Quite comfortable with it at that weight.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with three shot groups...never will be, so by all means continue to do so and go kill sh!(t)

It's when three shot groups are used to declare a rifle accurate the sh!(t) show starts....it's a big fk'n lie, three shots are meaningless.

Yes, I chased one hole three shot groups for 20 years and also wasted 20 years of time and components....

30338, that is hunting rig perfection.

RDW, tell it like it is.

yes a very nice hunting rig and a great cartridge choice too. i probably own to many 7mm-08`s but i plan on buying another one in a Browning BLR s.s. 7mm-08.i have always wished i had one in a Savage 99 too,maybe some day ?

give me a rifle that consistently prints a nice 3-shot group from a cold bore and I'm happy.

I shoot three shot groups all the time. Great way to learn a new rifle , or new powder. If a rifle will not shoot a three shot group, it certainly will not shoot a 5, 7, or 10.

I will then go back and verify loads with 5 shot groups that showed acceptable groups and had good chronograph numbers of velocity and deviation.

As far as the bullets/headstamp statement. That is coming from a guy that worships at the BC altar. Any extra BC is a perceived huge advantage to him. If you do not worship at his alter, you a couch %&%#@%!

I will take shot placement every time! After 40 years of hunting and hundreds of big game animals. I do not recall an instance where bullet failure caused a rodeo. But I can think of a handful of times where shot placement caused more than a little consternation.

IMO, shot placement relegates all other discussion to secondary importance.

I am a hunter first and foremost, not a paper/steel punching range junkie. Although I enjoy shooting, and shoot 1000's of bullets/arrows every year. If I could stay proficient without all of that, I would spend that time scouting even more for upcoming seasons.

Me too.Absolutely nothing wrong with a three shot group from a cold bore that is repeatable.I rarely shoot more than once anyway,so a really tight repeatable three shot group is good enough for me.

Amen from the back row.......

I have the luxury (not an ego/bragging thing by any means) of knowing what optics I like, bullets I like, what load development works for me, what bullets big game animals hate, what rifles I like, etc, etc etc, by actually using them. I don't need some paper queen (obviously not ctsmith) telling me that my rifle that consistently shoots very tight 3 shot groups will all of the sudden start sending bullets into oblivion somewhere (short of equipment failure quite obviously). That's a freaking joke. I have literally thousands of inches of mule deer, whitetail, and aoudad sheep that know otherwise.

Johnny, I'm about to subject you to an audit. You know I'm a former CPA, I'm good at audits. Got to make sure you really are the one killing all those critters.

Possible they used a Leupold...

I used a 6-24x40 Bushnell Elite. It tracked pretty well. Notice how I reshaped the pistol grip, checkered and refinished it. It was a crow killing machine.

DF

Whoa there Clint! I never said I was one shot and done on all of them, but one thing's for darn sure.....I've never shot more than 3 at any one deer that I can remember anyway. They've either died, or ran off into the wild blue yonder. Yes, I have missed, whiffed, swung and missed way more than once. I would love to have you come down and audit in the field though. I bet you and Greg make good pack mules.

Truth

Johnny, you know it has nothing to do with the numbers, just looking for a way to get on your hunting land.

Dirt nap, maybe...

DF

I own a .257 Weatherby, MkV Fibermark, that I have had for 35 or so years now, and that I absolutely prize. It has accounted for more big game than all my other rifles combined, over that time span.

Long ago, I worked up a load that shoots sub-MOA, whether I shoot 3 shots or 5, doesn't matter. It is sighted in to hit point of aim at 300 yards.

Nowadays, when it's time to take the .257 hunting, I will usually go to the range, set up on the 300 yard range, and shoot TWO rounds at a gong at 300. If those two shots are near the center of the gong, and within 3 inches of each other as they usually are, I go hunting. This rifle, and its barrel, are going to last me as long as I hunt big game, and I am not at all anxious to use up that barrel to verify something I have proved to myself for many years now.

I guess after it's all said and done,as long as you and your rifle can consistently shoot well and you can hit where you aim,you're going to bring some meat home when the opportunity presents itself .

This whole topic was created by gun scribes looking for something to write about.

They not the only ones ruminating over this topic. Look at how many pages we've expended doing the same...

I think 10 shot groups may be important to target shooters who want to know what their equipment will do shooting strings, not one shot out of a cold bore. Hunters have different needs.

And, those clover leaf three shot groups sure do look good to some of us.

DF

Hunters interested in dialing to long ranges may also be interested in the better estimate of true group center that a larger sampling of shots can provide. Of course, if the rifle/load is taking too many shots to get a decent estimate then maybe it isn't the one for the job anyway.

It depends on the round, IMO.

I'd never shoot my 26 Nosler 10 times, even after letting it cool. It gets pretty hot after just 3..

Target shooters seem to use less intense rounds, guess that's why the Creed is so popular. A ten round string with that one probably not that big a deal.

I've put around 400 rounds thru my 26 Nos, finding out what it likes. It does show some throat changes thru the Hawkeye, but still shoots sub MOA. As long as it shoots that good, I'm not worried about it. I doubt I'll shoot it that much again. I'll hunt with the loads it likes, have other projects that take the pressure off this one.

DF

I was thinking more of the precision angle. For example, when there's no wind my new 700 5R Milspec 6.5 Creedmoor has been stacking three rounds Berger factory ammo into a hole that isn't even big enough to cloverleaf. So in this instance three rounds is sufficient for me to make a good call on true group center. If a 6.5-300 Weatherby does the same I'd be able to make the same call.

Wouldn't hold my breath...

The right load should go sub inch, don't think I'd place much of a bet on one hole out of that big boomer. Not surprised about the Creed.

But, I get your point and agree...

DF

For my hunting rifles, I have quit chasing little groups at 100yds. I just don't enjoy it anymore.

If a sporter-weight gun will shoot the bullet I like in a MOA paper group (3 shot) at 200yds, it's worth me looking into. I'll shoot a few more 3-shot groups on 2MOA circles painted on my 300 and 400 yard gongs. If it will drop them in middle of the circles with my JBM dope, I call it good and go hunting. On Saturday, just before I left the range, I shot a .308 sporter that put a pair of 150 NAB's and a pair of 150 NBT's into the 400yd circle, using the same powder charge, seating die setting, and the same reticle dot. I can work with that for a deer/hog rifle.

400 rounds to find a good load? Holy smokes my friend no wonder you don't want to put any more rounds down the pipe . It usually takes me 75 rounds give or take from sight in to finished load with a ladder test, around 100 with an OCW. It's taken a few more at times when loading Berger VLD's to find the best coarse seating depth before starting but even with that it's a fairly quick operation. Find the charge, tune the seating depth, done.

It was a new gun and I was on a mission to try about every combo I could. It was my first dance with a big 6.5.

Maybe not too smart, but a Loony isn't that smart to begin with.

I had a lot of fun playing with that thing.

Once the new wore off and I had some good loads, I was OK. I was also working up loads for my hunting bud's identical rifle. Guess I should have shared the wear and tear with his rifle. I like light monos at warp spead. He likes the 140 NAB and NPT, so that increased the round count..

DF

You and me both.

I really don't understand any contention between field shooters and bench shooters. They are different disciplines which, in my world at least, overlap. I'm the most OCD bastard you'll ever meet about zero. Handgun, rifle, and I expect shotguns to center their pattern right on top of the bead. So I shoot from the bench to attain that and get a baseline accuracy/POI reading on a gun and load.

When I hit the sweet spot, I go straight to field positions. I'm looking for consistent hits on steel, right where I'm holding, from the farthest distance I'm likely to use that rig in the field. When I'm happy with that I work on snap shots close, 'acquire and fire' practice at 50-150 yards and do stable field positions (sitting, prone, over a hay bale etc) to about 350. I lucked into an accurate ArmaLite HBAR and I'm having a blast putting the rifle, and myself, through the wringer.

This is all for a purpose. In my youth I occasionally got caught with a deer, coyote etc looking at me 150-200 yards away in terrain that prohibited a rested or braced sitting shot. A couple of years after staring the precise zero & field shooting regimen, I started taking those shots, under ideal conditions, and making them. Work at the bench provides absolute confidence that the rifle and load will print exactly where they should. Field position practice provides confidence I can do it on game. I'll pass any shot I'm not sure I can make.

I don't claim to be any great marksman, but I'm a substantially better rifleman than I used to be.

Having fun is what it's all about! I've been guilty of loonyism more than a few times myself:D

And, they make barrels every day...

DF

Statistically, multiple 3 shot groups can provide more relevant data than a single 10 shot group.

The problem most people have with 3 shot groups is that the bad one's tend to get thrown out before the data make it to the internet.

So have you done research on this or are you just talking out your wazooo again?

OVERLAID multiple groups.

The rifle shoots nice and tight three shot groups but they're 1.5" apart. A lot of times this is a scope issue. Been there done that.

Here is how it's done, everything from the Savage 10 to the RAR and in between is MOA or better when I am holding the rifle..........

I have plenty more...

I think 5 shots too much, and 3 not enough.
4 is where it's at.

I grew up doing 3 shot groups but back in college switched to 5 shot groups.
Have always overlaid them.

It aint about getting a good group to brag about. It's about finding out what the rifle is repeatably doing so I can kill stuff.

My #1B, and my 700 BDL and ADL sporters (all in .243 win) were sub .5 MOA with handloads.
Good enough for me.

Tried a guys BR rifle at 225yds and did .5 for five shots. P*ssed him off. It was breezy.

My eyes and body aint young any more.
Took my POS 700 ADL synth out (newer one) and got .75" @100 yds w factory 80grainers.
Just a yote rig. I figured it good enough.

It did that after I stiffened the stock.
But opened to 1.25" one day.
Knew I hadn't gotten that sloppy.
Plastic cheap arse trigger guard had cracked.
Got a steel one, torqued it and back it went, to .75"

Took it out this summer, still .75 for 5 at 100. Set 1" high.

I shoot 3 shot groups for hunting load development. 3 shots tell a good story about the load, 5 shots tells a bigger story. But, is unneeded for myself that hunts/shoots inside of 200 yards with most of my shots being well under 100 yards.

Groups also provide information about point of impact and that is the main reason why I shoot 6 to 10 shot groups these days.

Because I feel it is more important to aim at the center of your group than the size of the groupt itself. Within reason, of course.

Merry Xmas to all.

my hunting rifles these days i know what they can do so i just take a couple of shots so i know they are still sighted in. my bench rifles i shoot them plenty for groups out to 600 yards, i don`t save targets or take pictures of groups either,i only record what the groups do for me in my small reloading books.

I use a 2 inch red dot at 100 yds. and only shoot one shot out of a cold barrel, if I hit the dot it is good to go.. for the last 20 or so years I have killed several deer each year... the first bullet out the barrel is the only one that counts... I had one barrel for my Encore that would not do that the first shot would be up to 2 feet away from the bullseye, I sold the barrel after telling the buyer of my problem.. never heard from him again...

This . Three shot groups are good for hunting rifles. Im more concerned with a consistent first shot. One shot is about all I get where I hunt.

How's a fella 'sposed to justify buying/loading ammo on a frequent basis with 3 shot groups, hey?

Here's the Ballistic Tape on the Conquest elevation turret. It's for the 140 SGK HPBT load with Varget that I'm using.

It came as a flat tape with adhestive backing. It had been precisely measured for this turret, fit perfectly. I went with a 100 yd zero, keep it set on 175 for point blank shooting to 200 yds. I start twisting at 250.

DF

Dumb question.. I see all of these groups.. sure theyre tight.. but why arenthey never in the bullseye?

Because moving a group onto the bullseye is an easy matter of twisting the turrets, most people don't worry about that until load development is complete. If the group is to the right 1" at 100yds, just dial 4 clicks to the left, etc. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. Not to mention, each time you try a new bullet/powder combination, the gun is going to print into a different spot, so why chase the group around the target until you are done? The hard part is getting a rifle/load to group well, so that is what people tend to focus on. At least that's how I see it.

I have several 308 rifles that shoot 1/2 to 3/4 moa five shot groups. Suppose I'm testing a new bullet and I'm using a 1/4" dot as point of aim on a 100 yard target. Plopping a 1/2" group right on the bullseye would be counterproductive, the group enlarging and obscuring the point of aim.

Yeah, thats why my groups are always so lousy. Most are of the 10 shot variety though:






Hitting the bullseye is just too damn hard to do for most guys. Besides, it doesn't teach you anything anyway... I much prefer my 3 shot groups, because they are smaller. I could care less where they hit on the target!!!!!

Yep that makes sense