In several magazine articles and in his books Jack O’Connor wrote that his wife and sons had killed approximately 50 critters with the 257 Roberts loaded with 100 grain bullets traveling at about 2950 FPS. Now my Ruger 77 250/3000 shoots the same weight bullets at 3000 FPS yet some folks consistently rate the Roberts as a better round! Yes the Roberts can shoot 110+ grain bullets but in these size rounds is there a significant difference that I have missed?
I think would of liked the 250/3000 had he used it enough. He didn't much care for the 25/06 either. Jack was an ace, the best hunting and shooting writer of his age. I like all the .25's
From what I have read, Jack O'Connor's 250-3000 Savage rifle was a custom Mauser with a 1 in 14" twist barrel. Supposedly it was used to work up the reloading data in the old Lyman manuals. With a slow twist, it might not have been accurate with bullets weighing 100 grains or more. In one of his books O'Connor wrote about shooting rock chucks with a 25-06.
The 257 case has about 25% more capacity. So all things being equal (bullet, pressure, barrel length, etc.), the 257 has the potential to produce about 5% more velocity. At 2900fps, that would be about 150fps. Whether or not that is significant depends on your personal hunting situation and desires.
I've had several .250 Savage rifles, but all had short barrels (2 Ruger Ultra Lights, 20", a Ruger RSI full stock, 18 1/2", and a TC Contender, 20"). I found H4895 powder to provide the best overall accuracy with bullets in the 87 - 100 grain range. About 2700 - 2750 was the best velocity I got from any of my guns using 100 grain (usually Sierra ProHunter) bullets. With the 87 or 90 grain Sierras, I could get between 2,900 and 3,000 fps. I saw slightly better velocity with powders other than H4895, but usually with a decrease in accuracy.
I have one .257 Roberts, a Kimber, purchased about ten years ago. I believe it has a 22" barrel. A maximum and accurate load of H4350 with either the Barnes 100 TSX BT or the 100 Sierra ProHunter gets about 3,100 fps muzzle velocity.
Please remember that neither the .257 Roberts nor the 250-3000 Savage are "high pressure" rounds and both are capable of substantially greater velocity when used in firearms that are built to handle the pressures of such rounds as the .270 Winchester.....(and in some cases were handloaded beyond the 65,000 PSI range commonly considered as a "max" load )
If someone had a .250 Savage that generated greater velocity than the "Bob" (that would be easily acceptable due to some folks handloading preferences.....
BTW.....I would never suggest that anyone try to do this using a Savage 99 rifle of the era when that round was popular.....or even a later model for that matter
I find that if precision is required I use the .250-3000 as it consistently shoots ragged hole groups at 100 with Nosler Partitions (100 gr). If 1/2 MOA is acceptable I use the Roberts with Horny 117 gr boat tails.
Only certified 1/4 bore whores will understand this.
Dan
PS: the .25-20 levermatic is appropriate for swamp pigs.
PPS: the .25-20 SS is death on the X-ring. Lord Black rules. I love my old Stevens 44.
The .250-3000 isn't capable of shooting 110+ grain bullets? I don't know how long 110 grain .257" bullets generally are compared to 100 grain .257" bullets, but this sounds more like a twist issue than a cartridge issue.
Maybe an action issue too. If I was itching all over for a .25, I'd pick the cartridge that best fit my action of choice. In a single shot, some thought would be given to barrel life and availability of good brass and/or ammo too.
All things considered, my 6mms make the most sense for me right now. I can shoot 115s out of my Creedmoor if I feel a need.
I had a 13 year old boy scout from my scout troop to the rifle range last Friday afternoon preparing for his first "Youth Season" deer hunt this coming Saturday. He shot my Marlin 30-30, 25-06 and my personal favorite...the little 250 Savage. After shooting all 3 rifles I asked him which he preferred....he replied the the little 250.
I asked him "why" His reply was "No" recoil to speak of and the little rifle just felt better in his hands. I have always felt the little 250 to be the perfect 'Youth" rifle.
The 257 is capable of 3200+ with 100 grainers. But most load data is handicapped by the boat loads of surplus rifles re barreled to the Roberts. Same could be said of the 250 as well, and a bunch of others.
The .250 and Creedmoor cases are so close to alike savage should get some kind of royalty.. I bet they haven’t seen any of that money though. 😜
I have a bunch of rifles chambered in 250-3000 and even a few in 257 Roberts. I have found that if all of the variables are equal, the larger case capacity wins the velocity battle every time. In the case of these 2 cartridges, what one will do, the other will do just as well, but then so will the plebeian 243.
Not sure what you're using to get that much velocity out of the little 250, but my 22" Ruger only goes about 2825 with 35 gr H4895. The highest I've seen listed with a 24" barrel is just over 2900 with H4895 or CFE223. Not saying it's not possible, just that I've not seen published data that shows that much out of a 250. I routinely run 3050 with 100s in my Ruger 257 Roberts with below max loads. There is a velocity advantage to the larger case in a modern bolt action, but I'm not sure too many deer will be able to tell the difference.
Nosler's 250 Savage data showing 35 gr. H4895 and a 100 gr. Ballistic Tip at 2952 fps is right on the money out of my 24" barreled 700 Classic.
To assess the potential of the 257 Roberts one may look to 6mm Rem. loads. The 6 Rem data for 95/100 grain bullets is chock full of combinations showing 3150 fps +/-. Being possessed of the same capacity and a larger bore than the 6 Rem, the 257 Roberts will be capable of even a bit more speed when loaded to like pressure.
The .257 Roberts has about a 25% powder capacity advantage over the .250-3000, on average with various kinds of brass, and a 100-grain lead core bullet seated to standard OAL. This means an approximate 8% velocity advantage for the Roberts when the same bullets are shot in the same barrel length, with optimum powders for both rounds. If a .250 load gets 3000 fps in a 24" barrel, the .257 should get around 3185 in a 24" at the same pressure.
rosco1--No, the low SAAMI pressures for the .250 and .257 are NOT due to them chambered in "surplus" rifles. Instead, the .250's is low due to being chambered from the get-go in the 99 Savage, which tended to be hard to open after firing hotter .250 handloads. The .257's is low due to being designed as a woodchuck cartridge by Ned Roberts, who found it more accurate at lower pressures, probably due to the relatively poorly balanced bullets of the day, which did not shoot as well at higher velocities. Remington followed his lead when turning the .257 into a factory round in 1934, and so did SAAMI.
The .257 Roberts has about a 25% powder capacity advantage over the .250-3000, on average with various kinds of brass, and a 100-grain lead core bullet seated to standard OAL. This means an approximate 8% velocity advantage for the Roberts when the same bullets are shot in the same barrel length, with optimum powders for both rounds. If a .250 load gets 3000 fps in a 24" barrel, the .257 should get around 3185 in a 24" at the same pressure.
rosco1--No, the low SAAMI pressures for the .250 and .257 are NOT due to them chambered in "surplus" rifles. Instead, the .250's is low due to being chambered from the get-go in the 99 Savage, which tended to be hard to open after firing hotter .250 handloads. The .257's is low due to being designed as a woodchuck cartridge by Ned Roberts, who found it more accurate at lower pressures, probably due to the relatively poorly balanced bullets of the day, which did not shoot as well at higher velocities. Remington followed his lead when turning the .257 into a factory round in 1934, and so did SAAMI.
So the the local hardware stores with steel barrel full of ratty 93’s chambered in 257 had nothing to do with the pressure limits?
Also of course the savage 99 is the reason for the 250. My mistake for not pointing out the extremely obvious. I’ll not leave the fly [bleep] in the pepper next time
The Savage SAAMI pressure is 45,000 CUP the Roberts 54,000 PSI and the +P is at 58,000 PSI. This is why the 257AI shows more improvement then some others as the parent cartridge is at a lower pressure. You would see the same level of improvement with the 250-3000AI or 25 Creedmoor.
They are all in about the same niche, and all are great deer cartridges. No need to stomp on these to get them to perform. If you want more velocity there is the 25-06 and 257 Weatherby.
Not sure what you're using to get that much velocity out of the little 250, but my 22" Ruger only goes about 2825 with 35 gr H4895. The highest I've seen listed with a 24" barrel is just over 2900 with H4895 or CFE223. Not saying it's not possible, just that I've not seen published data that shows that much out of a 250. I routinely run 3050 with 100s in my Ruger 257 Roberts with below max loads. There is a velocity advantage to the larger case in a modern bolt action, but I'm not sure too many deer will be able to tell the difference.
I have seen it. Handloader September-Ocober 1974, Bob Hagel. 100 gr Speer HP
He published it in is book, too. Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter, 1992
The .257 Roberts has about a 25% powder capacity advantage over the .250-3000, on average with various kinds of brass, and a 100-grain lead core bullet seated to standard OAL. This means an approximate 8% velocity advantage for the Roberts when the same bullets are shot in the same barrel length, with optimum powders for both rounds. If a .250 load gets 3000 fps in a 24" barrel, the .257 should get around 3185 in a 24" at the same pressure.
rosco1--No, the low SAAMI pressures for the .250 and .257 are NOT due to them chambered in "surplus" rifles. Instead, the .250's is low due to being chambered from the get-go in the 99 Savage, which tended to be hard to open after firing hotter .250 handloads. The .257's is low due to being designed as a woodchuck cartridge by Ned Roberts, who found it more accurate at lower pressures, probably due to the relatively poorly balanced bullets of the day, which did not shoot as well at higher velocities. Remington followed his lead when turning the .257 into a factory round in 1934, and so did SAAMI.
So the the local hardware stores with steel barrel full of ratty 93’s chambered in 257 had nothing to do with the pressure limits?
Also of course the savage 99 is the reason for the 250. My mistake for not pointing out the extremely obvious. I’ll not leave the fly [bleep] in the pepper next time
Where is this hardware store with all of the ratty 1893 Mausers chambered in 257 Roberts located?
From what I've seen, American ammunition manufacturers generally load their ammo at pressures that will be safe in the weakest common rifle chambered for the cartridge. I think that is why 6.5x55 is loaded to be safe in Norwegian Krags, 7x57 is loaded to be safe in pre-1898 small ring Mausers, and 8x57 is loaded to be safe in 1888 Commission Rifles, even those with 0.318" bores, and 45-70 is loaded to be safe in trap-door Springfields. Or so it seems to me.
Like 260Rem, I would also like to know where those hardware stores full of 93 Mausers rebarreled to .257 Roberts appeared. I have an extensive collection of shooting literature, and can find no reference to such--and never heard of it from any of my older hunting friends either, many of whom would have been around if it occurred. Please explain where this occurred. I have seen barrels full of "war surplus" Lee-Enfield .303's in my day, and one barrel full of a cheaper version of the Remington 700, all in .308 Winchester, in a sporting goods store in Norway.
A more obvious fact is that since the .257 appeared as a factory round in 1934, there's no way a bunch of 93's were rebarreled to the factory round BEFORE it was introduced. They would have been rebarreled to Ned Roberts wildcat round--which had slightly different dimensions, so would have been a handloading-only round. I sincerely doubt a hardware store owner would stock a barrel full of wildcat rifles for which nobody could buy factory ammo.
The major point, however, is that if somebody did rebarrel a bunch of 93's for the factory .257, it would have had to happen AFTER the .257 Roberts became a SAAMI-approved factory round--which means the low pressure limit was NOT due to rebarreled 93 Mausers,
Now my Ruger 77 250/3000 shoots the same weight bullets at 3000 FPS
I'd like to know a bit more about your Ruger ... barrel length, especially ... and I'd like to know the specifics of your load : bullet, powder, primer, case brand, about the chronograph you used to determine velocity, and whether your load has been pressure-tested. I'm not intending to call your integrity into question, it just doesn't make a lot of sense that this could be achieved without exceeding SAAMI pressure standards.
I'm a .257 Roberts fan, but it can be a bit of a pain in the ass in a short action. My current .257's chamber calls for about a 2.9" OAL with sharply pointed bullets but 2.82" is the most the magazine allows so I have more jump than I like. I've considered rebarreling to .25 Souper or .250 Savage AI, but more likely if I ever do another .25 caliber it will be on a long action (.25-'06) or magnum (.257 Weatherby). I have other options like .308 that work better in a short action.
Never made 257 brass from 6mm but did make 6mm from Robert's brass. Was pretty simple just going that .014 so I would probably go 6mm to Bob of it were me.
I did find some Roberts brass on ammoseek.com but it's higher than giraffe puzzy.
Is it better to go up from 6mm Rem, or go down from 7x57?
Going up is usually easier less chance of a donut or any need to neck turn, but check anyway. It can be done in one pass. 7mm to 25 might need to go 6.5mm first depending on the brass.
I just got 6mm Win. brass from Natchez for 20% off, might want to watch and see if they do another discount.
Like 260Rem, I would also like to know where those hardware stores full of 93 Mausers rebarreled to .257 Roberts appeared. I have an extensive collection of shooting literature, and can find no reference to such--and never heard of it from any of my older hunting friends either, many of whom would have been around if it occurred. Please explain where this occurred. I have seen barrels full of "war surplus" Lee-Enfield .303's in my day, and one barrel full of a cheaper version of the Remington 700, all in .308 Winchester, in a sporting goods store in Norway.
A more obvious fact is that since the .257 appeared as a factory round in 1934, there's no way a bunch of 93's were rebarreled to the factory round BEFORE it was introduced. They would have been rebarreled to Ned Roberts wildcat round--which had slightly different dimensions, so would have been a handloading-only round. I sincerely doubt a hardware store owner would stock a barrel full of wildcat rifles for which nobody could buy factory ammo.
The major point, however, is that if somebody did rebarrel a bunch of 93's for the factory .257, it would have had to happen AFTER the .257 Roberts became a SAAMI-approved factory round--which means the low pressure limit was NOT due to rebarreled 93 Mausers,
Have a nice day.
you can still find the business’s they were sold in but you missed it by 20-30 years, so you won’t find them anymore.
Coast to coast hardware, Smith & Edwards and Bobs marina. Local stores. All those stores had a sporterized barrel of 91,93,95,96 and 98’s and a separate barrel for non Sporters .
The sporter barrels were mostly full of Carl Gustav 6.5x55’s. But also had several 257’s, 308 and 243’s, among others but thought the 243 and 308 were worth mentioning, At least one of the 243’s was a 93 .must have been a local that thing? If so some of them traveled .. my 257 is stamped “made by A.D Forkey, Texas” it is a nicely executed rifle with a surprisingly nice wood stock. While every gun in the barrels were not 257’s, there were several 257’s to pick from.
I got mine at Bobs, don’t want to leave anything out.
You could find them by the crates of SKS and 30M1’s. I assumed that happened other places as well but maybe not.. I’m sure l’ll be set straight if not.
It does seem that weak actions wouldn’t be the reason for the low pressure factory ammo,but this is the first I’ve read that it’s absolutely not the reason, which makes sense given the timeline.
However it seems most loading manuals back then, when it came to the reason why stated “possibly because of weak actions “ I should have used “possibly” as a caveat to avoid chastising.
or “I don’t know why Remington did that, maybe they just knew it would happen ”which is what Ken Waters says in pet loads..
Regardless I won’t repeat that old wives tale anymore I was unaware this was solved.
I guess the pressure limit makes as much sense as the throat on them, which is said to be stubby because of short varmint bullets and blunt RN Roberts used. For Remington to follow suit makes about as much sense as a soup sandwich.
In short it sounds like a bunch of I don’t knows and maybes. Didn’t know the definitive was out there.
I am having a nice day thank you. Got a mixed bag of forest grouse this morning , gearing up for waterfowl this evening.
Is it better to go up from 6mm Rem, or go down from 7x57?
Going up is usually easier less chance of a donut or any need to neck turn, but check anyway. It can be done in one pass. 7mm to 25 might need to go 6.5mm first depending on the brass.
I just got 6mm Win. brass from Natchez for 20% off, might want to watch and see if they do another discount.
Isn't that backwards? Going up you have potentially thicker shoulder material becoming neck. Voila, donut. Going down it's neck material becoming shoulder.
Isn't that backwards? Going up you have potentially thicker shoulder material becoming neck. Voila, donut. Going down it's neck material becoming shoulder.
Yep, backwards.
For brass, check midway, cabela's, third generation, and powder valley. Maybe Sportsman's Warehouse online. There have been dry spells for .257 brass but it comes around eventually.
here`s my thought i wish Ruger still made both cartridges 250 Savage and 257 Roberts ? in 77`s and # 1`s wood stocks -blued barrels. >yes the Creedmoor inventors should pay royalties to Savage for using really their 250 Savage case design.
Like 260Rem, I would also like to know where those hardware stores full of 93 Mausers rebarreled to .257 Roberts appeared. I have an extensive collection of shooting literature, and can find no reference to such--and never heard of it from any of my older hunting friends either, many of whom would have been around if it occurred. Please explain where this occurred. I have seen barrels full of "war surplus" Lee-Enfield .303's in my day, and one barrel full of a cheaper version of the Remington 700, all in .308 Winchester, in a sporting goods store in Norway.
A more obvious fact is that since the .257 appeared as a factory round in 1934, there's no way a bunch of 93's were rebarreled to the factory round BEFORE it was introduced. They would have been rebarreled to Ned Roberts wildcat round--which had slightly different dimensions, so would have been a handloading-only round. I sincerely doubt a hardware store owner would stock a barrel full of wildcat rifles for which nobody could buy factory ammo.
The major point, however, is that if somebody did rebarrel a bunch of 93's for the factory .257, it would have had to happen AFTER the .257 Roberts became a SAAMI-approved factory round--which means the low pressure limit was NOT due to rebarreled 93 Mausers,
Have a nice day.
you can still find the business’s they were sold in but you missed it by 20-30 years, so you won’t find them anymore.
Coast to coast hardware, Smith & Edwards and Bobs marina. Local stores. All those stores had a sporterized barrel of 91,93,95,96 and 98’s and a separate barrel for non Sporters .
The sporter barrels were mostly full of Carl Gustav 6.5x55’s. But also had several 257’s, 308 and 243’s, among others but thought the 243 and 308 were worth mentioning, At least one of the 243’s was a 93 .must have been a local that thing? If so some of them traveled .. my 257 is stamped “made by A.D Forkey, Texas” it is a nicely executed rifle with a surprisingly nice wood stock. While every gun in the barrels were not 257’s, there were several 257’s to pick from.
I got mine at Bobs, don’t want to leave anything out.
You could find them by the crates of SKS and 30M1’s. I assumed that happened other places as well but maybe not.. I’m sure l’ll be set straight if not.
It does seem that weak actions wouldn’t be the reason for the low pressure factory ammo,but this is the first I’ve read that it’s absolutely not the reason, which makes sense given the timeline.
However it seems most loading manuals back then, when it came to the reason why stated “possibly because of weak actions “ I should have used “possibly” as a caveat to avoid chastising.
or “I don’t know why Remington did that, maybe they just knew it would happen ”which is what Ken Waters says in pet loads..
Regardless I won’t repeat that old wives tale anymore I was unaware this was solved.
I guess the pressure limit makes as much sense as the throat on them, which is said to be stubby because of short varmint bullets and blunt RN Roberts used. For Remington to follow suit makes about as much sense as a soup sandwich.
In short it sounds like a bunch of I don’t knows and maybes. Didn’t know the definitive was out there.
I am having a nice day thank you. Got a mixed bag of forest grouse this morning , gearing up for waterfowl this evening.
You have a nice day too.
Remember that the 257 Roberts was introduced during the depths of The Great Depression, when most people didn't have discretionary income to spend on rebarreling surplus military rifles or, it seems, to buy many commercial rifles either. The most common pre-WW2 commercial rifle chambered in 257 Roberts is probably the Winchester 70 and there aren't many of them out there.
Whoever made the decisions about what bullet styles and pressure levels to standardize is probably long dead and since Remington has a well documented history of screwing up cartridges that they introduce, it seems unlikely that they had a clue that what they were doing would result in a sub-optimal outcome and criticism from those able to exercise 20/20 hindsight.
you can still find the business’s they were sold in but you missed it by 20-30 years, so you won’t find them anymore.
Coast to coast hardware, Smith & Edwards and Bobs marina. Local stores. All those stores had a sporterized barrel of 91,93,95,96 and 98’s and a separate barrel for non Sporters .
The sporter barrels were mostly full of Carl Gustav 6.5x55’s. But also had several 257’s, 308 and 243’s, among others but thought the 243 and 308 were worth mentioning, At least one of the 243’s was a 93 .must have been a local that thing? If so some of them traveled .. my 257 is stamped “made by A.D Forkey, Texas” it is a nicely executed rifle with a surprisingly nice wood stock. While every gun in the barrels were not 257’s, there were several 257’s to pick from.
I got mine at Bobs, don’t want to leave anything out.
Only thing I can think of is about 25+ years ago Kimber of Oregon brought out a line of inexpensive rifles on surplus 96 and 98 actions (don't remember 93 actions being used). The actions were matte blued, had fluted stainless barrels, and came in Gentry-designed "Rough Rider" stocks by Butler Creek. They came in a variety of cartridges including 257 Roberts... I had one on a 98 action that didn't shoot worth a crap.
There is a kinda nice looking sporterized Swedish Mauser in 257AI on the Kittery Trading Post site for $375. It looks like it might have started as one of the Kimber rifles, but the bolt handle appears to have been replaced, not just ground enough to clear a scope, and the barrel looks like an after-market unit, but better than Kimber's C+ grade of work.
I've had a half-dozen of each. The velocities I've obtained are fairly close, and not enough to make a shooter choose one over the other, frankly. One peccadillo I HAVE really noticed though, is that every .257 Roberts I've owned (2 Brownings, 2 Rugers, 2 Remingons, 2 Winchesters) were finicky to load for. Every .250 Savage I've owned (six 99's, a Savage bolt and a Remington bolt) was dead easy to load for. That said, the fact that I still have two .250-3000's and a .250 Ackley doesn't make me stop wanting another Roberts.
My experience has been the opposite: Have owned similar numbers of rifles chambered in each cartridge, including a bunch of 99's, and the .257 has been easier to load for.
Which just demonstrates, once again, that rifles differ.
I’ve had a M70 Fwt, Savage 110, 722, and a Ruger 77 in .257 Roberts and all were easy to load an accurate round for. Still have the Ruger and wish I had the M70 back. Oh well, had to finance an elk hunt somehow....
I've had a half-dozen of each. The velocities I've obtained are fairly close, and not enough to make a shooter choose one over the other, frankly. One peccadillo I HAVE really noticed though, is that every .257 Roberts I've owned (2 Brownings, 2 Rugers, 2 Remingons, 2 Winchesters) were finicky to load for. Every .250 Savage I've owned (six 99's, a Savage bolt and a Remington bolt) was dead easy to load for. That said, the fact that I still have two .250-3000's and a .250 Ackley doesn't make me stop wanting another Roberts.
I've had 5 factory barreled 257 Robs, and all were picky or mediocre accuracy-wise. That's not to say a finely accurate 257 factory rifle isn't out there, I've just not had one.
Have only had one 250 Savage, a Ruger 77 RSI, so a sample of one isn't that impressive.
BUT, about 20+ years ago I was planning on a custom 250 Savage on an M70 action. I decided on an HS Precision cut-rifle barrel for it. I called HS, and somehow got the shop manager on the phone to discuss my project. He was obviously busy and really didn't want to talk, until he asked what I wanted the rifle chambered for. I told him "250/3000"... then he wouldn't shut up! He waxed absolutely lyrical about the 250 Savage, and told me over the years it was the most consistently accurate round they chambered for. To me, that's saying a lot. Really, the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a blown out, slightly upsized 250 Savage, and I think we all understand there is some "inherent accuracy" in that general design that it shares with the 250 Savage. Really, it's mostly the 1-14 twist that messed up the Savage.
I love the little 250 Savage. Maybe Larry Koller's books had something to do with it, but it genuinely "kicks a little and kills a lot."
I have one of each, both in ultra light bolt guns. The Savage is built on a Model Seven, the Roberts on a Ruger 77 Tang. Both have 22" Shilen #1 barrels, 1:10 twist. Both shoot pretty good despite the barrel that could be used as a horse whip. I load for the both of them.
The only difference I noticed, is one, the powders they seem to prefer are vastly different burn rates. I get almost identical velocities, in the 2800 fps range, but with two different bullet weights, both Nosler Ballistic Tips. The Roberts shoots the 115, the Savage the 100 grain.
I suppose if you want to run heavier bullets, the Roberts gets the nod, if you want a lever gun, go with the Savage, otherwise, they are pretty close to identical, ballistically and from a use standpoint.
Just my 2 cents worth. Recently a gunwriter layne Simpson I think decided to build a 250 savage AI, for brass he just used 6mm credemore case necked to 25 cal. No fire forming just load and shoot. Me thinks the credemore just reinvented the wheel. Is it the 6.5 credemore or the 6.5/250 savage AI.
Years ago 1982 Aussie gun writer Nick Harvey and your own les Bowmen attended a Remington seminar. Both were presented rem 700s in 257 Roberts. Nick had his long throated so he could SEAT bullets to match the chamber 3inch. He developed loads pushing 3,200fps with a 100gn and close on 3,000 fps with a 120 gn. He corresponded with Les about his result, he didn't believe Nick until he tried it himself and got the same results. Bowman approached Remington about upping their anemic Roberts loads to real world pressure but was declined in difference to all the so called weak actions. As Harvey points out the Roberts was introduced in rems 721 action not a weak action. Anyway that's my 2 cents of history may the 25s rule. I know the above is fact because Nick Harvey wrote an article about it in the Australian sporting shooter Mag and I have spoken with him personally about it he love his Roberts.
Just my 2 cents worth. Recently a gunwriter layne Simpson I think decided to build a 250 savage AI, for brass he just used 6mm credemore case necked to 25 cal. No fire forming just load and shoot. Me thinks the credemore just reinvented the wheel. Is it the 6.5 credemore or the 6.5/250 savage AI.
Years ago 1982 Aussie gun writer Nick Harvey and your own les Bowmen attended a Remington seminar. Both were presented rem 700s in 257 Roberts. Nick had his long throated so he could SEAT bullets to match the chamber 3inch. He developed loads pushing 3,200fps with a 100gn and close on 3,000 fps with a 120 gn. He corresponded with Les about his result, he didn't believe Nick until he tried it himself and got the same results. Bowman approached Remington about upping their anemic Roberts loads to real world pressure but was declined in difference to all the so called weak actions. As Harvey points out the Roberts was introduced in rems 721 action not a weak action. Anyway that's my 2 cents of history may the 25s rule. I know the above is fact because Nick Harvey wrote an article about it in the Australian sporting shooter Mag and I have spoken with him personally about it he love his Roberts.
Layne must have magic dies. Considering a 250 Ackley has a 40 degree shoulder and the 6mm Creedmoor has a 30 degree shoulder.
My 99 takedown .250, circa 1919, does very well with the load from Hornady #3, 37gr IMR4320. It gets 3071 fps and 1.5-1,75" three shot groups. My 700 Classic with 24" barrel, 100gr NBTs, and the same powder charge, clocks 3003fps and 1/2" groups. The big (26" barrel) .257 with 85gr NBTs and 47gr W760 clocks 3347 and sub 1/2", while the 23" barreled 95 Mauser shoots sub 1" with several loads. Velocity of the 100gr Hornadys is about 3100. I love them all.
Girl hunter my spelling may not be perfect but if my memory serves me correctly the 250 AI can be had with two different shoulder angles. Do some research and see for yourself. As for the creed having tighter saami specs I doubt it saami specs set out a max and minimal spec for all cartridges. Loaded to the same pressure and same tight spec chamber there would be stuff all in it between a .257 and .264. My spelling may not be acceptable to girl hunter but surely .007 of an inch ain't gonna make a great deal of difference in the real world. Both will kill things. My personal 25 is capable of 0.90 groups in my old hands and kills stuff as far as I can shoot. I think 7 thousands of an in is clutching at straws. Both ore fine cartridges for thier intended purpose.
Girl hunter my spelling may not be perfect but if my memory serves me correctly the 250 AI can be had with two different shoulder angles. Do some research and see for yourself. As for the creed having tighter saami specs I doubt it saami specs set out a max and minimal spec for all cartridges. Loaded to the same pressure and same tight spec chamber there would be stuff all in it between a .257 and .264. My spelling may not be acceptable to girl hunter but surely .007 of an inch ain't gonna make a great deal of difference in the real world. Both will kill things. My personal 25 is capable of 0.90 groups in my old hands and kills stuff as far as I can shoot. I think 7 thousands of an in is clutching at straws. Both ore fine cartridges for thier intended purpose.
A 250 Ackley Improved is 40 degree shoulder, period.
When I bought my first 5.3 Creedmoor in 2010, it didn't take long to notice the resemblance to the .250 Savage Improved. In fact back then 6.5 Creedmoor brass was pretty scarce, so when assigned to do an article for HANDLOADER magazine I tried blowing out .22-250 brass (far more available than either .250 or 6.5 CM back then) using the technique of using some Unique powder with cornmeal or Cream of Wheat (uncooked of course) on top. It worked perfectly, so the resemblance between the .250 Improved and the 6.5 Creedmoor isn't exactly news.
The Ackley version of the .250 Improved does indeed have a 40-degree shoulder, but the RCBS version (which many people do not remember) had a 28-degree shoulder, very close to the Creedmoor's 30 degrees.
My 99 takedown .250, circa 1919, does very well with the load from Hornady #3, 37gr IMR4320. It gets 3071 fps and 1.5-1,75" three shot groups. My 700 Classic with 24" barrel, 100gr NBTs, and the same powder charge, clocks 3003fps and 1/2" groups. The big (26" barrel) .257 with 85gr NBTs and 47gr W760 clocks 3347 and sub 1/2", while the 23" barreled 95 Mauser shoots sub 1" with several loads. Velocity of the 100gr Hornadys is about 3100. I love them all.
Shootinurse, some questions.
1) What barrel length of the M 99 takedown?
2) Hornady #3 manual load, are you using the 100 grain Hornady bullet and what case and primer?
3) How many firings can you get from a case with that Hornady load?
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
Mule Deer I actually have 2 First one built on a smle no4 action equals the Roberts in every aspect velocity wise. Built for my son. The other built on a P14 action, 24 inch llijla match grade barrel, timney trigger set a 2.5 # with a boyds stock. The cartridge is a 303 British necked to 25 cal, blown out with minimal taper shoulder moved forward and neck length shortened to .257 length. While still maintaining the full length of the case. This allows me to SAFELY load 58 grains of hogdon superformance behind a 100grain Barnes ttsx and 52 grains behind the 117sst respective velocities are 3,600 and 3,370 fps. Cases are easy to fire form and 8 to 10 reloads per case.
Girlhunter correct the AI may be 40 degree but you must admit there's 2 different shoulder angles. Why be so pedantic and admit there's other versions. I have been reloading going on 40years and can't remember everything.
Anyway mule deer after reading gun gack and seeing how much you and Eileen like the 25 caliber both the Bob and the savage are fine cartridges that will do most things needed when loaded to their potential, my 25 is just a bit more of a good thing.
Just my 2 cents worth. Recently a gunwriter layne Simpson I think decided to build a 250 savage AI, for brass he just used 6mm credemore case necked to 25 cal. No fire forming just load and shoot. Me thinks the credemore just reinvented the wheel. Is it the 6.5 credemore or the 6.5/250 savage AI.
Years ago 1982 Aussie gun writer Nick Harvey and your own les Bowmen attended a Remington seminar. Both were presented rem 700s in 257 Roberts. Nick had his long throated so he could SEAT bullets to match the chamber 3inch. He developed loads pushing 3,200fps with a 100gn and close on 3,000 fps with a 120 gn. He corresponded with Les about his result, he didn't believe Nick until he tried it himself and got the same results. Bowman approached Remington about upping their anemic Roberts loads to real world pressure but was declined in difference to all the so called weak actions. As Harvey points out the Roberts was introduced in rems 721 action not a weak action. Anyway that's my 2 cents of history may the 25s rule. I know the above is fact because Nick Harvey wrote an article about it in the Australian sporting shooter Mag and I have spoken with him personally about it he love his Roberts.
I don't know who Nick Harvey is, but if he " points out the Roberts was introduced in rems 721 action not a weak action", he is wrong.
The 257 Roberts was introduced before WW2 started and was chambered by American manufacturers in the Remington 30, Winchester 54, and Winchester 70. The weakest actions that the 257 Roberts has been cataloged in aren't weak at all, the Browning BLR and Remington 760. The Remington 721 was never cataloged in 257 Roberts. That would have been the 721's short action brother, the 722.
I believe that the only long action that Remington chambered in 257 Roberts in post-WW2 were the one year run of 700 Classics in 1982 and a non-cataloged limited run of stainless 700 Classics sometime after 1982.
There also might have been some Remington 720s made in 257 Roberts, but if so, there must not have been many of them made.
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
So in short, you were wrong.
How so?
The Ackley is 40°, but there is a 250 Improved 28° cartridge. A reloading die set from Huntingtons' is # 56162
Both the Bob and 3000 are "interesting" cartridges and fun to fool with BUT if you are setting out today to build/buy a NEW rifle, they hold no magic.
Newer cartridges like the 6mm/6.5 Creedmore, with tighter SAMMI specs can exceed the performance of these older 25s.
Bullet selection and case quality is also far better in 6/6.5 mm.
While I love my 99 and 722, I would never duplicate those chamberings if building/buying new.
Good points. I like old, interesting rifles, and pick them up from time to time, get them shooting, then usually send them on to someone else, having had my fun. Last one was a Husky '06. Getting such rifles chambered for semi-obsolete (or orphan if you prefer) cartridges back in business is the only real reason, IMO, to take on the project of cobbling together (mostly) brass and other stuff to feed, unless the quest itself is the attraction. As Old Jack pointed out long, long ago, mild cartridges kill well because people shoot them well, and as Old Barsness often says, ordinary bullets work well at moderate speeds. No magic here, and the results are easily duplicated with modern or "standard" cartridges in calibers from .24 to .30 caliber without all the trouble. By all means do what plucks your heart strings, but spare me the tears and soft music while you do it.
OH i think there is a little magic in the 250 Savage & 257 Roberts = it brings back memories of the past . as does Santa Claus Merry Christmas to all !Pete53
OH i think there is a little magic in the 250 Savage & 257 Roberts = it brings back memories of the past . as does Santa Claus Merry Christmas to all !Pete53
Well, of course there is the practical aspect that is more important to the great majority of rifle buyers than the issues of "cool" and nostalgic. Practical in 2019 calls for the purchase of a rifle chambered in either 243 or 6.5 CM, while nostalgia seduces a buyer to take the road less traveled and find a rifles chambered in either 250-3000 or 257 Roberts.
I find practical to be a good thing, it make life easier, but owning something that may not be practical, but which prompts nostalgic memories is nice, even if it requires a little extra effort to operate. Every time I pick up a Savage 1920, I think about Larry Koller and wonder if he might have hunted with it and if it might be a rifle that he alluded to in "Shots At Whitetails. I wonder if a Savage Axis found under a Christmas tree two days hence will prompt similar memories for a young teen in 2069?
My 99 takedown .250, circa 1919, does very well with the load from Hornady #3, 37gr IMR4320. It gets 3071 fps and 1.5-1,75" three shot groups. My 700 Classic with 24" barrel, 100gr NBTs, and the same powder charge, clocks 3003fps and 1/2" groups. The big (26" barrel) .257 with 85gr NBTs and 47gr W760 clocks 3347 and sub 1/2", while the 23" barreled 95 Mauser shoots sub 1" with several loads. Velocity of the 100gr Hornadys is about 3100. I love them all.
Shootinurse, some questions.
1) What barrel length of the M 99 takedown?
2) Hornady #3 manual load, are you using the 100 grain Hornady bullet and what case and primer?
3) How many firings can you get from a case with that Hornady load?
Barrel is 23 3/4 inches. Had to be cut back a bit to clean up the crown.
87 gr Speer Hot Core, Remington brass, and Remington 9 1/2 primer. Worked up the load. Velocity is just under the 3100 fps Hornady had with their 87gr bullet. Have not had much luck with 100gr bullets in that rifle. Three-four inch groups are about average. That 87gr Hot Core drops deer nicely, even close range through the shoulder.
Don't shoot the rifle much, but I've had five or six loadings without case loss. I'm doing partial resizing rather than squeezing things all the way back.
While choice is everyone's option I tend to lean toward the 250 Savage in newer rifles.Although nostalgia rifles have their place also. Never had a 257 Roberts. Did not see the need as the 250-3000 fills my need for accurate performance on deer and varmite size game. Nothing wrong with either one IMO as they will both do what they were designed to do. My Savage 99 in 250-3000 was my go to deer rifle for many years and it still sits in a stand with me from time to time.
Your picture reminds me of the 700 Classics in 250-3000 that I bought in the 1990's and early 2000's for the sole purpose of rechambering to 25-284.
Too bad that Remington never chose to make the 700 MR in 250-3000.
My favorite newer 250-3000 is the Winchester 70 Lightweight Carbine made in 1987. A nice little rifle that is forever handicapped by its 1-14" ROT barrel. Aesthetically even nicer if the barreled action is put into a 70 FWT stock, giving us an idea about what the Savage 1920 might have grown into.
Your picture reminds me of the 700 Classics in 250-3000 that I bought in the 1990's and early 2000's for the sole purpose of rechambering to 25-284.
Too bad that Remington never chose to make the 700 MR in 250-3000.
My favorite newer 250-3000 is the Winchester 70 Lightweight Carbine made in 1987. A nice little rifle that is forever handicapped by its 1-14" ROT barrel. Aesthetically even nicer if the barreled action is put into a 70 FWT stock, giving us an idea about what the Savage 1920 might have grown into.
Put a 1-10 ROT barrel on the Win 70 and have some fun! Save the 1-14 ROT barrel just in case.
Well, of course there is the practical aspect that is more important to the great majority of rifle buyers than the issues of "cool" and nostalgic. Practical in 2019 calls for the purchase of a rifle chambered in either 243 or 6.5 CM, while nostalgia seduces a buyer to take the road less traveled and find a rifles chambered in either 250-3000 or 257 Roberts.
I find practical to be a good thing, it make life easier, but owning something that may not be practical, but which prompts nostalgic memories is nice, even if it requires a little extra effort to operate. Every time I pick up a Savage 1920, I think about Larry Koller and wonder if he might have hunted with it and if it might be a rifle that he alluded to in "Shots At Whitetails. I wonder if a Savage Axis found under a Christmas tree two days hence will prompt similar memories for a young teen in 2069?
Practical is what most people want, but loonies need to be loonies. Feel free to quote me if you like.
My 99 takedown .250, circa 1919, does very well with the load from Hornady #3, 37gr IMR4320. It gets 3071 fps and 1.5-1,75" three shot groups. My 700 Classic with 24" barrel, 100gr NBTs, and the same powder charge, clocks 3003fps and 1/2" groups. The big (26" barrel) .257 with 85gr NBTs and 47gr W760 clocks 3347 and sub 1/2", while the 23" barreled 95 Mauser shoots sub 1" with several loads. Velocity of the 100gr Hornadys is about 3100. I love them all.
Shootinurse, some questions.
1) What barrel length of the M 99 takedown?
2) Hornady #3 manual load, are you using the 100 grain Hornady bullet and what case and primer?
3) How many firings can you get from a case with that Hornady load?
Barrel is 23 3/4 inches. Had to be cut back a bit to clean up the crown.
87 gr Speer Hot Core, Remington brass, and Remington 9 1/2 primer. Worked up the load. Velocity is just under the 3100 fps Hornady had with their 87gr bullet. Have not had much luck with 100gr bullets in that rifle. Three-four inch groups are about average. That 87gr Hot Core drops deer nicely, even close range through the shoulder.
Don't shoot the rifle much, but I've had five or six loadings without case loss. I'm doing partial resizing rather than squeezing things all the way back.
I read your original post as too hot of a load for the 99 if the bullet was a 100 grain bullet. Thanks for clearing that up. Yes sir, that 87 grain Speer Hot-Cor is the ticket for the ROT 1-14" 99s, I even use it exclusively in my 99-A with a ROT 1-10" and not afraid to put it into shoulders.
All 25s are cool IMO, older is better it shows it's been around the block a few times. Some may be harder to get but are still available if you look and can be given a boost with the newer powders and projectiles. How many of these new whiz bang cartridges will be around in 90 years or more like the 25/35, 250 savage and 257 Roberts. Time will tell if newer is better or the old just plod along in the background quietly getting the job done. To all a merry Christmas and a happy New year. No matter what floats your boat be safe, be happy and keep shooting no matter what caliber you used.
Maybe an action issue too. If I was itching all over for a .25, I'd pick the cartridge that best fit my action of choice. In a single shot, some thought would be given to barrel life and availability of good brass and/or ammo too.
All things considered, my 6mms make the most sense for me right now. I can shoot 115s out of my Creedmoor if I feel a need.
Well, some [bleep] had to bring up the creemoooore in this thread. Heaven forbid its not mentioned for a couple hours.
Maybe an action issue too. If I was itching all over for a .25, I'd pick the cartridge that best fit my action of choice. In a single shot, some thought would be given to barrel life and availability of good brass and/or ammo too.
All things considered, my 6mms make the most sense for me right now. I can shoot 115s out of my Creedmoor if I feel a need.
Well, some [bleep] had to bring up the creemoooore in this thread. Heaven forbid its not mentioned for a couple hours.
To be fair, azzhole, the Creedmoor reference was made because that particular 6mm has a twist that allows the use of bullets tending towards the heavier end of the commonly available .25 caliber spectrum. The same applies to any .24 with the same twist and a magazine that lets you use them. Hardly a reason to call someone a f*g.
Perhaps you should just avert thine eyes if you're so sensitive.
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
So in short, you were wrong.
How so?
The Ackley is 40°, but there is a 250 Improved 28° cartridge. A reloading die set from Huntingtons' is # 56162
All 25s are cool IMO, older is better it shows it's been around the block a few times. Some may be harder to get but are still available if you look and can be given a boost with the newer powders and projectiles. How many of these new whiz bang cartridges will be around in 90 years or more like the 25/35, 250 savage and 257 Roberts. Time will tell if newer is better or the old just plod along in the background quietly getting the job done. To all a merry Christmas and a happy New year. No matter what floats your boat be safe, be happy and keep shooting no matter what caliber you used.
I'd but a box of doughnuts, that you'll be able to find a Creedmoor in 90 years. To find a 250 Savage, someone will need to know your full name and have a shovel.
Well, of course there is the practical aspect that is more important to the great majority of rifle buyers than the issues of "cool" and nostalgic. Practical in 2019 calls for the purchase of a rifle chambered in either 243 or 6.5 CM, while nostalgia seduces a buyer to take the road less traveled and find a rifles chambered in either 250-3000 or 257 Roberts.
I find practical to be a good thing, it make life easier, but owning something that may not be practical, but which prompts nostalgic memories is nice, even if it requires a little extra effort to operate. Every time I pick up a Savage 1920, I think about Larry Koller and wonder if he might have hunted with it and if it might be a rifle that he alluded to in "Shots At Whitetails. I wonder if a Savage Axis found under a Christmas tree two days hence will prompt similar memories for a young teen in 2069?
Practical is what most people want, but loonies need to be loonies. Feel free to quote me if you like.
That explains my rifles chambered in 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 22HP, 25-20, 25-35, 256 WIN MAG, 256 Newton, 276 Pedersen, etc.
To me the 250 Savage and 257 Rbt's are at their best in a nicely stocked wood/blue rifle like Sakohunter264's above. In a plastic-fantastic, I'll take the Creedmoor.
I've got a Kimber Classic Select in 257 Rob showing Friday... fingers crossed the wood is as good as it appears in the photos... it's a 2012 mfg, not one of the blonde 2x6's found on the current crop of Kimbers (insert gag-reflex here).
The 250 AI is the one I'd really like......but then you are just .007 away from a yes, the dreaded 6.5 Creedmoor! Never was a Roberts fan, good round, but then you are almost a twin of the 6.5x55........they all get the job done no doubt. I do like the vanilla 25-06........it needs a big brother....commercialized..........
The 250 AI is the one I'd really like......but then you are just .007 away from a yes, the dreaded 6.5 Creedmoor! Never was a Roberts fan, good round, but then you are almost a twin of the 6.5x55........they all get the job done no doubt. I do like the vanilla 25-06........it needs a big brother....commercialized..........
The Wins and Kimbers with blue/wood are nice.
I've done both the 250AI and 25 Souper in short action Ruger 77s and prefer the 25 Souper 'cause it is easier, one run through the resizing die, and fed better in my 77 RSI.
That said, the easiest .257" bore round is the 25-06 and although I was a 257AI snob for a long time, I have come to appreciate the 25-06, even with a 22" barrel. The Marlin XL7 that I bought from someone on this site back in 2012 shoots the Hornady American Whitetail 117 grain factory load better than a $280 rifle ought to.
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
So in short, you were wrong.
How so?
The Ackley is 40°, but there is a 250 Improved 28° cartridge. A reloading die set from Huntingtons' is # 56162
Did you read the whole thread? Do you need Cliff notes?
There is a 28° Improved round, not just the 40° version. So 2epps is correct and you are wrong about being one a single Improved version of the .250 out there.
The 250 AI is the one I'd really like......but then you are just .007 away from a yes, the dreaded 6.5 Creedmoor! Never was a Roberts fan, good round, but then you are almost a twin of the 6.5x55........they all get the job done no doubt. I do like the vanilla 25-06........it needs a big brother....commercialized..........
The Wins and Kimbers with blue/wood are nice.
I've done both the 250AI and 25 Souper in short action Ruger 77s and prefer the 25 Souper 'cause it is easier, one run through the resizing die, and fed better in my 77 RSI.
That said, the easiest .257" bore round is the 25-06 and although I was a 257AI snob for a long time, I have come to appreciate the 25-06, even with a 22" barrel. The Marlin XL7 that I bought from someone on this site back in 2012 shoots the Hornady American Whitetail 117 grain factory load better than a $280 rifle ought to.
I Knew a fellow with a Bob AI, he ran it HOT.......VERY HOT....Great speeds, unknown pressures! So......yes I ran a Ruger 1B, Mild recoil, beautiful wood, shot about 7/8" with factory 117s.......only sold it b/c it was just too heavy for a sporter to tote around. Sure do like the little Blue BTs....never cared for the dull brown ones in 6.5, but they perform.
The little 25 BR was written up in Varmint Hunting magazine a few years ago....guy set back a barrel as I recall to 22", on a Ruger, a 1AB it seems, it was the lighter sporter contour. Shot 100s around 3,000 as I recall, with great accuracy. Also read about the Souper, IIRC, that is a 308 case? Speeds were VERY high, and accuracy Great.....it was an all out custom rifle using custom bullets as I recall. I would if the 250AI can easily be made by passing 6.5 CM brass thru a die? IDK. Just a thought, knowing they are very similar. A local shooter used to form 6XC out of 22/250, but it seems I found a few cases left over....that may had failed, not sure how many times fired.
If you want to make things easy with .25's, buy a .25-06. The ammo/brass is everywhere, and rifles normally shoot VERY accurately, even with loads that theoretically shouldn't, such as around 52 grains of either IMR or H4350 with a 100-grain bullet.
But real rifle loonies do not generally want to make things easy. Instead they're much like my paternal grandmother, who homesteaded by herself in central Montana in 1919. The line in our family was: "Grandma Bee didn't think anything was worth doing unless you did it the hard way."
I’ve got a 257AI in a Dakota 97. It’s a fantastic rifle, that turns out nail driving accuracy with 117gr Sierra GK or 115gr Nosler BT. What I like most about the AI is that it’s easy on brass and, easy to fireform cases.
If you want to make things easy with .25's, buy a .25-06. The ammo/brass is everywhere, and rifles normally shoot VERY accurately, even with loads that theoretically shouldn't, such as around 52 grains of either IMR or H4350 with a 100-grain bullet.
But real rifle loonies do not generally want to make things easy. Instead they're much like my paternal grandmother, who homesteaded by herself in central Montana in 1919. The line in our family was: "Grandma Bee didn't think anything was worth doing unless you did it the hard way."
Being a Norwegian and embracing suffering as our people do, I can relate to Grandma Bee... but I just happen to have 300 pieces of RP Roberts Brass on hand 😀
If you want to make things easy with .25's, buy a .25-06. The ammo/brass is everywhere, and rifles normally shoot VERY accurately, even with loads that theoretically shouldn't, such as around 52 grains of either IMR or H4350 with a 100-grain bullet.
But real rifle loonies do not generally want to make things easy. Instead they're much like my paternal grandmother, who homesteaded by herself in central Montana in 1919. The line in our family was: "Grandma Bee didn't think anything was worth doing unless you did it the hard way."
When I was younger I was more inclined to swim against the current and valued cool over practical, but with age came enlightenment.
Mule Deer Thanks for clarification on the 250 savage improved I knew there was two different angles just thought they were both AI as my reloading stuff just mentions a 28 degree, 40 degree and standard My own personal 25/303 Epps Newton improved has a 35 degree shoulder
So in short, you were wrong.
How so?
The Ackley is 40°, but there is a 250 Improved 28° cartridge. A reloading die set from Huntingtons' is # 56162
Did you read the whole thread? Do you need Cliff notes?
There is a 28° Improved round, not just the 40° version. So 2epps is correct and you are wrong about being one a single Improved version of the .250 out there.
Look retard, I'll type slow for you.
First post I replied to, in which your BFF said that Layne just used 6mm Creedmoor brass necked up in his 250 AI. No fireforming.
Originally Posted by Girlhunter
Originally Posted by 25epps
Just my 2 cents worth. Recently a gunwriter layne Simpson I think decided to build a 250 savage AI, for brass he just used 6mm credemore case necked to 25 cal. No fire forming just load and shoot. Me thinks the credemore just reinvented the wheel. Is it the 6.5 credemore or the 6.5/250 savage AI.
Layne must have magic dies. Considering a 250 Ackley has a 40 degree shoulder and the 6mm Creedmoor has a 30 degree shoulder.
PS: Give spell check a whirl.
Then this one.
Originally Posted by Girlhunter
Originally Posted by 25epps
Girl hunter my spelling may not be perfect but if my memory serves me correctly the 250 AI can be had with two different shoulder angles. Do some research and see for yourself. As for the creed having tighter saami specs I doubt it saami specs set out a max and minimal spec for all cartridges. Loaded to the same pressure and same tight spec chamber there would be stuff all in it between a .257 and .264. My spelling may not be acceptable to girl hunter but surely .007 of an inch ain't gonna make a great deal of difference in the real world. Both will kill things. My personal 25 is capable of 0.90 groups in my old hands and kills stuff as far as I can shoot. I think 7 thousands of an in is clutching at straws. Both ore fine cartridges for thier intended purpose.
A 250 Ackley Improved is 40 degree shoulder, period.
So AGAIN for the two of you that apparently suffer the ability to comprehend anything. It wasn't about TWO different IMPROVED versions, it was about the AI (Ackley Improved) having a 40 degree shoulder.
I was the guy saying you could neck up 30 degree shoulder brass and use it in a 40 degree chamber, no fireforming needed.
I wasn't the one that said the 250AI can have 2 different shoulder angles, that was your BFF again. The ACKLEY IMPROVED, has a 40 degree shoulder.
I'm sure this will befuddle you even more, so just drink a can of Ensure and take a nap.
So AGAIN for the two of you that apparently suffer the ability to comprehend anything. It wasn't about TWO different IMPROVED versions, it was about the AI (Ackley Improved) having a 40 degree shoulder.
I was the guy saying you could neck up 30 degree shoulder brass and use it in a 40 degree chamber, no fireforming needed.
I wasn't the one that said the 250AI can have 2 different shoulder angles, that was your BFF again. The ACKLEY IMPROVED, has a 40 degree shoulder.
I'm sure this will befuddle you even more, so just drink a can of Ensure and take a nap.
What is it your time of the month? He thought the Ackley came in both 28 & 40 angles. Instead being a b!tch by saying only he was wrong, maybe you should pointed out (so others reading this thread might also understand) that even though there is a 28° version 250 Improved, it isn't considered an Ackley. Or is it because you had no clue about the 28° Improved version?
So AGAIN for the two of you that apparently suffer the ability to comprehend anything. It wasn't about TWO different IMPROVED versions, it was about the AI (Ackley Improved) having a 40 degree shoulder.
I was the guy saying you could neck up 30 degree shoulder brass and use it in a 40 degree chamber, no fireforming needed.
I wasn't the one that said the 250AI can have 2 different shoulder angles, that was your BFF again. The ACKLEY IMPROVED, has a 40 degree shoulder.
I'm sure this will befuddle you even more, so just drink a can of Ensure and take a nap.
What is it your time of the month? He thought the Ackley came in both 28 & 40 angles. Instead being a b!tch by saying only he was wrong, maybe you should pointed out (so others reading this thread might also understand) that even though there is a 28° version 250 Improved, it isn't considered an Ackley. Or is it because you had no clue about the 28° Improved version?
Aren't the terms "Ackley Improved" and "Improved" synonymous?
Many, maybe most, people add the suffix "AI" to indicate an "Improved" cartridge even if POA has no role in that cartridge case's design "improvement". I have noticed that Redding doesn't credit POA, as their dies for "improved" cartridges are referred to as "improved" or "improved xx-degree" if there are multiple versions of that particular cartridge that feature different shoulder angles. OTOH, Hornady and Lee credit POA for all "improved" cartridges in their "Ackley Improved" dies.
If boorish behavior bothers you, as it does me, you can find serenity in the "ignore" feature. "Ignore" is a wonderful tool and I highly recommend it.
The 250 AI is the one I'd really like......but then you are just .007 away from a yes, the dreaded 6.5 Creedmoor! Never was a Roberts fan, good round, but then you are almost a twin of the 6.5x55........they all get the job done no doubt. I do like the vanilla 25-06........it needs a big brother....commercialized..........
The Wins and Kimbers with blue/wood are nice.
I've done both the 250AI and 25 Souper in short action Ruger 77s and prefer the 25 Souper 'cause it is easier, one run through the resizing die, and fed better in my 77 RSI.
That said, the easiest .257" bore round is the 25-06 and although I was a 257AI snob for a long time, I have come to appreciate the 25-06, even with a 22" barrel. The Marlin XL7 that I bought from someone on this site back in 2012 shoots the Hornady American Whitetail 117 grain factory load better than a $280 rifle ought to.
I Knew a fellow with a Bob AI, he ran it HOT.......VERY HOT....Great speeds, unknown pressures! So......yes I ran a Ruger 1B, Mild recoil, beautiful wood, shot about 7/8" with factory 117s.......only sold it b/c it was just too heavy for a sporter to tote around. Sure do like the little Blue BTs....never cared for the dull brown ones in 6.5, but they perform.
The little 25 BR was written up in Varmint Hunting magazine a few years ago....guy set back a barrel as I recall to 22", on a Ruger, a 1AB it seems, it was the lighter sporter contour. Shot 100s around 3,000 as I recall, with great accuracy. Also read about the Souper, IIRC, that is a 308 case? Speeds were VERY high, and accuracy Great.....it was an all out custom rifle using custom bullets as I recall. I would if the 250AI can easily be made by passing 6.5 CM brass thru a die? IDK. Just a thought, knowing they are very similar. A local shooter used to form 6XC out of 22/250, but it seems I found a few cases left over....that may had failed, not sure how many times fired.
At least some of POA's loading data for the 257AI is very hot, far exceeding any currently recommended loads. I remember a member claiming 257 BEE performance from a 257AI with loads that he got from data that Ackley published. IIRC, he hadn't run any of the loads over a chronograph, so he really didn't know what they were doing, but because POA said so, it was so, at least in his mind.
I had a Ruger #1 in 257 Roberts awhile back, around 2003 or 2004. I understand that the guy who I sold it to had it rechambered to 25-06 in order to eliminate or reduce the freebore jump to the rifling that it came with.
At least some of POA's loading data for the 257AI is very hot, far exceeding any currently recommended loads. I remember a member claiming 257 BEE performance from a 257AI with loads that he got from data that Ackley published. IIRC, he hadn't run any of the loads over a chronograph, so he really didn't know what they were doing, but because POA said so, it was so, at least in his mind.
I had a Ruger #1 in 257 Roberts awhile back, around 2003 or 2004. I understand that the guy who I sold it to had it rechambered to 25-06 in order to eliminate or reduce the freebore jump to the rifling that it came with.
Never looked and compared the Bob, data, but the POA published load data for the .250 is close to what Sierra listed on their # 5 load manual at least for the 100 grain bullet. For that 100 gr bullet, I believe they are within .5 grain for 4064 close to that for the 4350 powder as well.
For me, my M99 250 AI shows the best results with RL15 and H-380 powders, but both are on the lower side of the AI "improvement" gains. Anything close to the mid-higher range in speed/powder as shown in the Sierra book and I start cratering primers and having lever opening issues. I might try revisiting the 4064 powder again.....
260 - join the club...it happens, we experiment, learn, and settle down with less fuss! Lol.
JB, agreed, as usual. Tinkering is fun no doubt for those who have the time and inclination.......something that seems to wane as I age. Run a few wildcats.......when I was younger. They work as well or better today than ever with newer powders, as most all no doubt.
So earlier, I mentioned the 25-06 'big brother' being commercialized...as in common rifles and ammo in 6.5-06. Not that it's needed, but long ago it sure seemed intriguing to many. Now speaking of Norwegian heritage, I have a good friend who lives in Oslo. The 6.5x55 has served Scandinavia quite well over the years........and there there's always the 9.3s, if one wants to go larger.
Good stuff, as usual when a thread starts about 25s.....especially in these nice rifles like above. Agree about the above comment - "If I go Stainless/Synthetic" pass on the 25s. Thought a 25-06 or Bee would not be overly out of the ordinary in one, for hard field use.
Girl hunter. The real test of any cartridge is if it lasts 5 years it may survive. Take the wssm, total flop despite being pretty good. The wsm only one remains fairly popular (300), 1 not too bad(325) an 2 only just holding on (270 and7mm wsm) . You can send me the donuts any time as I will be well and truly gone in 70 years. Ha ha. Remember this is supposed to be an information forum with some fun. It would be good to see you lighten up a bit and stop nitpicking and learn from others in regards to my spelling check yours first. Nobody's perfect have fun and enjoy life instead of picking on others. Any cartridge is good if it does what you want and you are happy with it. I may be mad using a cartridge that has to be formed and played with to get it to work but that's what rifle loonies do and I enjoy being in that group. I really like the 25s and the old but still hanging on the good ol 35 Whelan
Girl hunter. The real test of any cartridge is if it lasts 5 years it may survive. Take the wssm, total flop despite being pretty good. The wsm only one remains fairly popular (300), 1 not too bad(325) an 2 only just holding on (270 and7mm wsm) . You can send me the donuts any time as I will be well and truly gone in 70 years. Ha ha. Remember this is supposed to be an information forum with some fun. It would be good to see you lighten up a bit and stop nitpicking and learn from others in regards to my spelling check yours first. Nobody's perfect have fun and enjoy life instead of picking on others. Any cartridge is good if it does what you want and you are happy with it. I may be mad using a cartridge that has to be formed and played with to get it to work but that's what rifle loonies do and I enjoy being in that group. I really like the 25s and the old but still hanging on the good ol 35 Whelan
Sako hunter What a beautiful rifle and great choice of cartridge. You should be commended on your choice. Welcome the the land of 25 cal loonies. Enjoy that rifle mate
Girl hunter. The real test of any cartridge is if it lasts 5 years it may survive. Take the wssm, total flop despite being pretty good. The wsm only one remains fairly popular (300), 1 not too bad(325) an 2 only just holding on (270 and7mm wsm) . You can send me the donuts any time as I will be well and truly gone in 70 years. Ha ha. Remember this is supposed to be an information forum with some fun. It would be good to see you lighten up a bit and stop nitpicking and learn from others in regards to my spelling check yours first. Nobody's perfect have fun and enjoy life instead of picking on others. Any cartridge is good if it does what you want and you are happy with it. I may be mad using a cartridge that has to be formed and played with to get it to work but that's what rifle loonies do and I enjoy being in that group. I really like the 25s and the old but still hanging on the good ol 35 Whelan
Disengage with girlhunter. He is a sociopath who just started posting under this new screen name. He is attention starved and chooses to get his attention by being adversarial. There is literally NOTHING to be gained from conversing with him.
Girl hunter. The real test of any cartridge is if it lasts 5 years it may survive. Take the wssm, total flop despite being pretty good. The wsm only one remains fairly popular (300), 1 not too bad(325) an 2 only just holding on (270 and7mm wsm) . You can send me the donuts any time as I will be well and truly gone in 70 years. Ha ha. Remember this is supposed to be an information forum with some fun. It would be good to see you lighten up a bit and stop nitpicking and learn from others in regards to my spelling check yours first. Nobody's perfect have fun and enjoy life instead of picking on others. Any cartridge is good if it does what you want and you are happy with it. I may be mad using a cartridge that has to be formed and played with to get it to work but that's what rifle loonies do and I enjoy being in that group. I really like the 25s and the old but still hanging on the good ol 35 Whelan
Disengage with girlhunter. He is a sociopath who just started posting under this new screen name. He is attention starved and chooses to get his attention by being adversarial. There is literally NOTHING to be gained from conversing with him.
So,who was he/she before he/she became Girlhunter?
Just what we need, another Larry Root with dozens of different handles.
Look forward to trying mine out in the next few days.
Beautiful rifle, Sakohunter, but I would say that, as my 250AI is about the same, and all sourced here on the 'fire. The M70 compact Classic came from PA., the Pac-nor 9 twist stainless barrel form Georgia, the VXIII 2.5-8 from Alaska, and the dies and 100 new brass from Colorado. Added some Cerakote and a 1/2" Pachmayer pad and it is a lovely rifle to view, carry, and shoot. Enjoy it!
I have one very similar, its my favorite rifle. I really like the Roberts, the only change I would make would be to find a Kimber Montana in the Roberts so I would feel safe hunting in the rain with it. Mine has an old 3-9 Diavari on it, I shoot 117 grain Hornady interlocks now over a lot of H4350, its very accurate, it kills deer as well as anything I have ever owned. If I was to go back to 100 grains bullets I would shoot the TSX again with a much H4350 as I could as it just flattens deer if into the shoulder or neck. Having hunted with a bunch of 277 and 30 caliber guns, killed a whole lot of deer, there is no deer in the south that the Roberts does not kill just as fast if you can shoot.
I have one very similar, its my favorite rifle. I really like the Roberts, the only change I would make would be to find a Kimber Montana in the Roberts so I would feel safe hunting in the rain with it. Mine has an old 3-9 Diavari on it, I shoot 117 grain Hornady interlocks now over a lot of H4350, its very accurate, it kills deer as well as anything I have ever owned. If I was to go back to 100 grains bullets I would shoot the TSX again with a much H4350 as I could as it just flattens deer if into the shoulder or neck. Having hunted with a bunch of 277 and 30 caliber guns, killed a whole lot of deer, there is no deer in the south that the Roberts does not kill just as fast if you can shoot.
I've had two 257 Rob Montana's... I really don't want another. I have more stainless/African Walnut rifles than I can use, and bought this for fair weather "gentleman hunts."
I have in the past, mostly 115s and 117s, and while they're theoretically stable in a 1-10 twist, have never gotten the greatest accuracy, compared to 100s in the same rifles.
That said, they've been accurate enough for any big game hunting I've planned to do with a .250--and proved to be in the field.
Anyone loading heavier bullets in the 110 to 120 grain range in their 250 Savages?
I tried the 120 gr Speer Grand Slam and couldn't get a grouping I liked in my M99. I found the now discontinued 100gr Sierra Pro Hunter worked best for me. Happy I have about 500 bullets left......
"The major point, however, is that if somebody did rebarrel a bunch of 93's for the factory .257, it would have had to happen AFTER the .257 Roberts became a SAAMI-approved factory round--which means the low pressure limit was NOT due to rebarreled 93 Mausers,"
I'll buy that. I've also alway thought those small ring Mausers just may have been stronger than credit was given regarding their strength. I never had one of those in a .25 caliber anything but I did have a neat 7x57 that to this day I'm still kicking myself for selling.
I do have two rifles in .257 Roberts, a Ruger #1B and a Winchester M70 Featherweight. The Ruger is very accurate with the only ammo I've run through it, a 100 gr. load by Norma. I don't think Norma even make that ammo anymore. Pity. I never got around to running any hand loads in that rifle. The M70 on the other hand is driving me sane. My sun in law bought one in .257 and wanted me to work up a load for his with the 100 gr. TSX. He buys the components, leaves me with the rifle and I have fun. IIRC, I worked with IMR 4350 and worked up to the max load in the Barnes #4 manual without any problems and the load was MOA. Velocity was within a few FPS of the Manual. So, when the chance to buy an NIB M70 FWT at a good price showed up I started with the IMR4350/TSX combo and worked up to the max with nothing to show for my trouble but dismal accuracy Most groups were larger than 3". Tried some with the 100 gr. Sierras, Game Kings and Pro-hunters but again lousy accuracy. Guess I'll get back to the drawing board sometime in the next year. Too many other projects in the way.I will say that FWT is a pleasure to shoot regarding recoil. I must be getting old. Ya think? Paul B.
PJ, make sure the barrel is well floated and the bedding good, then try IMR4320 or RL15 with NBTs or 100gr Hornadys. My 700 Classic and Dakota 76 dote on them, and the M70 fwt @50AI also does quite well with RL15.
In several magazine articles and in his books Jack O’Connor wrote that his wife and sons had killed approximately 50 critters with the 257 Roberts loaded with 100 grain bullets traveling at about 2950 FPS. Now my Ruger 77 250/3000 shoots the same weight bullets at 3000 FPS yet some folks consistently rate the Roberts as a better round! Yes the Roberts can shoot 110+ grain bullets but in these size rounds is there a significant difference that I have missed?
Factory ballistics for 100 grain 250 Savage is 2820 fps.
I suspect that you're somehow comparing apples to oranges; your handloads compared to JOC's guess or something similar. The 257 Roberts case is bigger than a 250 Savage case, so all else being equal, it will give higher velocities.
Would love to hear what your sources are. Here are the top velocities for 100-grain bullets from the most recent pressure-tested data, with 100-grain bullets:
The only source that lists .250 velocities as high as the .257 is Lyman. Their load is 33.0 grains of IMR3031 for 3012 fps--while Hodgdon lists 34.5 grains of 3031 as max, for 2875 fps. Somebody must have been asleep at Lyman's chronograph.
The .257 has more than 15% more powder room than the .250. There is no way the .250 can match .257 velocities at the same pressure. That is not how rifle cartridge physics works.
Naw, doesn't offend me--but that's what I suspected.
A lot of older manuals have faulty info, for various technical reasons, which is why handloaders are encouraged to use the latest available information.
I have never owned a 250 savage but I have used the Roberts a lot... I have never herd anyone that uses the 250 complain....they all rave about how great it is...and I don't doubt it a bit..
Only thing I can think of is about 25+ years ago Kimber of Oregon brought out a line of inexpensive rifles on surplus 96 and 98 actions (don't remember 93 actions being used). The actions were matte blued, had fluted stainless barrels, and came in Gentry-designed "Rough Rider" stocks by Butler Creek. They came in a variety of cartridges including 257 Roberts... I had one on a 98 action that didn't shoot worth a crap.[/quote]
Fred Meyer up here in Eagle River AK had several of those rebarreled model 98,s that were reworked by Kimber of Oregon various calibers. Was told that Kimber and Fred Meyer both in Oregon had close connections. Now Fred Meyers quit selling guns.
Kimber "Salvation Rifles" (as I call them because as I understand it, they were a stop-gap measure toward financial trouble) were indeed on 96 or 38 Swede actions about the same time SARCO flooded the market with complete guns. Some (maybe the majority?) of those were sold with serviceable original 6.5x55 barrels that were turned down to smooth contour and shortened toward a sporting appearance, indicating that Kimber was sourcing entire guns (from SARCO or elsewhere).
Finish and components were varied.
Rebarreled guns were indeed in Roberts, .243, and .308. They were sold with an economical Bushnell 3x-9x scope, mounted with Weaver rings and bases and the purchase included a plastic hard case. All for $299!
The example I hold is a brushed nickel finish action and barrel, (non-fluted), with a Ramline stock, in .308 Winchester. It shot VERY WELL right off the bat. With a Dayton-Traister cock-on-opening/trigger conversion and a Leupold 3x-9x it will run with the best for accuracy.
It is also a bullet-proof workhorse that looks pretty and shoots prettier.
Kimber "Salvation Rifles" (as I call them because as I understand it, they were a stop-gap measure toward financial trouble) were indeed on 96 or 38 Swede actions about the same time SARCO flooded the market with complete guns. Some (maybe the majority?) of those were sold with serviceable original 6.5x55 barrels that were turned down to smooth contour and shortened toward a sporting appearance, indicating that Kimber was sourcing entire guns (from SARCO or elsewhere).
Finish and components were varied.
Rebarreled guns were indeed in Roberts, .243, and .308. They were sold with an economical Bushnell 3x-9x scope, mounted with Weaver rings and bases and the purchase included a plastic hard case. All for $299!
The example I hold is a brushed nickel finish action and barrel, (non-fluted), with a Ramline stock, in .308 Winchester. It shot VERY WELL right off the bat. With a Dayton-Traister cock-on-opening/trigger conversion and a Leupold 3x-9x it will run with the best for accuracy.
It is also a bullet-proof workhorse that looks pretty and shoots prettier.
The Cabela's in LaVista, NE, had one of the 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers that Kimber sporterized in their used gun rack last week priced at $370. This rifle has a blued finish, not the brushed nickel finish that some folks mistake for stainless. I was a little tempted, but since I already have 4 sporterized Swedish Muasers chambered in 6.5x55 I passed. Instead, I bought a used RAR-P in 6mm Creedmoor to fool around with.
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Merry Christmas everyone! Nice wood.
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