Is this information correct? Not including the prices. I copied this from somewhere.


1. The heart of our Legend Rifle begins with a current production, chrome-moly steel, Winchester Model 70 claw extractor action that has been extensively modified and refined.

2. The action is blueprinted by re-machining the recoil lug seats, recoil lugs, receiver face and bolt face. The recoil lugs and recoil seats are then lapped to assure the maximum amount of lug engagement. A select grade chrome-moly steel barrel is then fit and chambered to the action. Our chambering procedures assure that maximum accuracy potential of the barreled action is realized. The Standard Sporter Legend is available in the following calibers only; 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 H&H Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Weatherby Magnum, 338 Winchester Magnum and 340 Weatherby Magnum (see 300 and 340 Weatherby note below). All barrels incorporate our own barrel contour to further enhance the final balance of our rifles. The overall length of these barrels is 24� or 26� depending on the caliber

Note: 300, 340 and 375 Weatherby:
Please note that we use non-standard throat dimensions for the 300, 340 and 375 Weatherby chambering in our rifles. We use minimum throat length and an altered lead angle. These changes have allowed us to continually obtain excellent accuracy levels with these calibers. However, please note that we cannot recommend the use of all factory ammunition with this chamber configuration due to the possibility of increased pressure levels in temperature conditions above 75�F. Consequently, these rifles are best utilized with precision hand loaded ammunition, specifically tailored for each individual rifle. Loading data can be provided with each rifle if requested. Our goal when developing loading data for this caliber is achievement of maximum accuracy and down-range energy consistent with safe velocity and pressure constraints. If you decide to purchase one of our rifles chambered for 300, 340 or 375 Weatherby, you must be willing to accept and use hand loaded ammunition to achieve the optimum in performance.

3. The underside of the action is re-machined to create a uniform bedding platform and to accept a proprietary D�Arcy Echols & Co. heat-treated, stainless steel magazine box and follower assembly. This unique design is cartridge specific and allows our magazine box to hold one additional magnum round, giving the shooter a total of five rounds instead of the usual four rounds. This feature alone is almost unheard of in any currently available factory or custom produced firearm. This magazine conversion is not a �Drop Box� design.

4. The receiver�s feed-ramp and guide rails are then modified to assure reliable cartridge feeding. Our rifles have established a reputation for flawless reliability.

5. The ejection port is lengthened to 3.600 to permit ease in loading of the magazine. A spring steel extractor replaces the factory extractor and is fit properly to fully utilize the advantages of the claw extractor system. A Williams steel floor-plate and trigger bow is re-machined and cosmetically detailed before installation.

6. The trigger, ejector, and bolt stop are re-pinned to remove all undesirable looseness or play. The sear engagement surfaces are machined to guarantee a consistent, crisp trigger pull set at 3 � lbs. The safety wing and bolt lock engagement is refined to ensure smooth and positive manipulation of the safety. The factory sleeved bolt handle is then pinned and soldered to the main bolt body to prevent any separation between the handle and bolt body while in use.

7. Years ago I developed my own scope mounting system which provides simplicity and great strength needed for reliability under heavy recoil and adverse hunting conditions. To achieve this goal the mount system is designed to accommodate the specific scope (of the customer�s choice), and the mounts are fitted to the rifle with great precision. The front and rear action rings are carefully ground to a precise profile, concentric to the centerline of the bore. Once these critical surfaces of the rings are �true�, we install our proprietary scope mounts. Our mounts are made of steel, and designed to provide maximum strength without excessive weight. As a final step to assure maximum strength of the entire scope mount system we carefully hand-fit each mount to its individual action ring.

The bottom half of the scope ring is machined as an integral part of the scope base. This unique arrangement provides several important advantages:
1. The mount does not overhang the ejection port
2. The scope can be mounted as close to the bore as possible
3. Eliminates the joint between the base and the ring which is a significant weakness of standard scope mount systems

We change the factory scope base holes to 8x40 and use five Torx� head screws rather than the standard slotted or Allen head screws. This change adds integrity to the mounting system by providing an exceptionally strong joint between the scope base and the action ring. Our mounts are available in either 1� or 30 mm.

This is the only scope mount we have used that will prevent heavy 30 mm scopes from sliding in the rings under severe recoil generated by such calibers as the 458 Lott. Our scope mount system has a proven track record and is the only system we will install. The customer should be aware that no other commercially made scope base will fit our rifles and they cannot be replaced by any other factory scope mounts on the market.

8. The Legend rifle is fitted with a synthetic stock of my own design that stems from over two decades of Classic Rifle design and construction. It incorporates many-advanced accuracy enhancing features, allows the shooter to control heavy recoil and has the styling, feel and handling features of a best quality French walnut sporter. This stock design fills a void in the current inventory of commercially available synthetic sporter rifle stocks. Our stocks are manufactured by McMillan Fiberglass Stocks exclusively for D�Arcy Echols & Co. This Classic sporter style is available for both Left and Right-handed shooters. Either version features a straight comb (with no drop from comb nose to heel), contemporary style cheek piece, functional point-style checkering pattern, open grip, and cast �on� or �off� both at the toe and heel depending on if the rifle is made for a left or right hand shooter. A 1� red or black recoil pad is standard. The actions are pillar bedded and barrels are free floated. Length of pull is available from 13� to 15�. Factory trigger guard and floor plate screws are replaced with high quality heat-treated Allen key screws. All stocks (except for the Heavy Sporter Model) are fit with standard sling swivel studs. These stocks are available in the following colors only, Black, Brown, and Sage Green. The Sage Green being preferred by those who hunt in warmer climates.

9. All the appropriate metal is carefully hand polished and then caustic immersion blued.

10. Then one of the most critical phases in this rifle�s construction is under taken. The rifle is then test fired repeatedly at our range to confirm that feed, function, accuracy, scope viability and safety requirements are completely met. A variety of factory ammunition is used during testing to determine which ammunition delivers the best accuracy for that particular rifle. We have found that most of our customers are knowledgeable and experienced riflemen that want Precision Load Development for their rifle. We are pleased to develop such data when requested.

Standard Sporter Model in right or left hand configuration�����������.���$14,000.00

Sales tax will be added for Utah residents.
Client is responsible for shipping and handling charges.
Optics are not included in the above price.

Heavy Sporter
This version is available in the following calibers only: 375 H&H Magnum, 375 Weatherby Magnum, 416 Remington Magnum and 458 Lott.

This version is identical to the Standard Legend Sporter but does require additional time and labor to insure that these rifles will feed perfectly with the larger caliber solid and soft point ammunition.

1. The front sling swivel base is mounted on the barrel.

2. The Heavy Sporter is equipped with either our scope mounts or our aperture sights, but not both. At this time I offer no provision for detachable scope mounts.

Scope Mounts
We use our proprietary scope mounts for all our Legend rifles. Please refer to item 7 in the description of the Standard Sporter Model.

Peep Sights
Even though the stock was primarily designed for scope use, I can provide this iron sight alternative that has been specifically designed for this model. This system incorporates a fiber optic bead-and-ramp front sight coupled with a receiver-mounted peep sight of my own design. This combination has an advantages over the traditional barrel mounted express sights by allowing the shooters eyes to acquire the target very rapidly, visually focus on the only the front bead and the target and has a much longer sight radius. This sight combination works extremely well in low light conditions are zeroed at 50 yards and are easily adjusted for both windage and elevation.

458 Lott. Please be aware that the 458 Lott is notorious for destroying variable power riflescopes regardless of size, weight, or manufacturer. Consequently I prefer to build the 458 Lott Heavy Sporter Model with our peep sights or a fixed power scope only.

Heavy Sporter Model, scoped or iron sight version, in left or right hand configuration�.$14,000.00

Sales tax will be added for Utah residents.
Client is responsible for shipping and handling charges.
Optics are not included in the above price.
Accuracy and Reality

When I ship a rifle from our shop it has met my stringent accuracy requirements that are based on the type of hunting for which the rifle was designed. Practicality and intelligence dictates that a 458 Lott shooting the appropriate soft point and solid ammunition will not require the same level of accuracy that can be expected from a Long Range Sporter chambered for 300 Weatherby . When I put a rifle through it�s accuracy test I am often shooting bullets of known accuracy and construction checked on a Verne Junke machine. I use a 16X test scope of know reliability and repeatability. The majority of these accuracy trials are done with precision hand-loaded ammunition shot from a solid bench and under ideal range conditions. Consequently our range results may or may not always be duplicated exactly by the client. However, I will make the following guarantee:

I will supply you, the hunter, with a rifle that will maintain a consistent point of impact, with more accuracy than you can realistically utilize under field conditions.

Optics

To date I have installed and tested almost every make, model and manufacture of riflescope that would be applicable to the big game hunter today. In my experience there is no hands down winner when it comes to performance, longevity or reliability. It matters little if the manufacturer is domestic or foreign, 1� or 30mm, they all have their trade offs and potential for failure right out of the box. Unless we have good reason to object, we will install any scope the customer requests.

However

I will not be held responsible for any scope that fails and requires replacement at any time during the rifle�s construction or after the rifle�s delivery. This will include any scope purchased by us at the customer�s request or supplied to us by the customer. If a scope fails during any stage of the rifle�s construction, all additional expenses such as supplemental labor cost, range cost, ammunition expense, shipping, etc incurred as a result of the scope�s failure will be charged to the customer regardless. Please re-read the preceding statement.


Options Available

Load Development is available upon request. We only compile, test and then supply the load data. We do not supply or sell any ammunition. We can recommend companies that deal exclusively in loading custom ammunition for assembling the ammunition tailored to your rifle The cost for this service is dependent on the caliber, material cost, and the bench and range time required to complete the process. Load development cost begins at $ 1000.00 per load. Further information on this service can be addressed by calling us directly.

Custom Bottom Metal
We offer a custom straddle-guard floor-plate and trigger guard assembly that is a standard feature on our Classic rifles. Installing this unit into our fiberglass stock requires additional magazine box modifications, trigger width modifications and a surprising amount of hand fitting. Current cost for this upgrade is an additional $1200.00. Availability of these units is very, very limited.

Checkered Bolt Stop Release $125.00

Remove and replace the factory knurled bolt knob with a smooth bolt knob $400.00

Remove and replace the factory knurled bolt knob with a two-paneled checkered bolt knob $700.00
Fluted 26" Barrels, these chrome-moly barrels can be had up to 30 caliber and all have .700 muzzle diameter and 8 flutes $ 400.00

Placing an Order

Ordering a Legend rifle is simple. It can be done by letter, phone, E-mail, or in person. We encourage any prospective customer to visit our shop if possible. Here you can see the effort that is required to create one of our rifles. A $6000.00 deposit is required to confirm and schedule a project and acquire the raw materials, with the balance due prior to shipment. A current and signed Federal Firearms License is required from the dealer in your area who will be receiving shipment of the rifle. Rifles not claimed within 30 days of completion will be considered forfeited. Deposit will also be forfeited in cases where the rifle is unclaimed within the 30-day window. Any rifles ordered with non-standard upgrade options (Custom Floor-plate and Trigger guard, 30mm rings in non-standard dimension) or an unusually long or short length of pull that is returned for a refund will be subject to a refund that forfeits the cost of all option upgrades or non standard length of pull stock installed by request on that particular rifle.

Customer Supplied Actions: I have no problem using a customer-supplied action in the construction of a Legend. However there are two conditions that the client must understand and agree to. First the action supplied most meet our inspection standards. Not all actions are created equally. When an action is received it is carefully disassembled and gone over with a very fine toothcomb. If any action does not meet our standards the action is rejected and returned to the customer. Second, if for what ever reason the finished rifle does not meet the customers expectations and a full refund is requested we reserve the right to purchase the action from the customer for $600.00 to prevent from having to tear apart a perfectly good rifle and return that action to the original customer. The cost for all three Legend configurations will be at current market value less a credit of $ 600.00 that is deducted from the current list price for those supplying an action.

Example: Legend standard Sporter current list price $ 14,000.00

Credit adjustment for a customer supplied action - $ 600.00

Total base cost less optics, shipping, insurance, and test fire ammunition $ 13,400.00

Delivery at this time is approximately 12 to 16 months. Since you have read this brochure to this point you will have hopefully become aware that these Legends are not in any way a mass-produced rifle. Each individual rifle is being assembled with the utmost care and attention to detail. Unfortunately, unexpected delays are sometimes encountered, which are most often due to a particular rifle that is not performing as we think it should, thereby requiring additional time for diagnosis and correction. This is a rare occurrence, but should give the prospective client an idea of our dedication for excellence to each and every rifle that leaves our shop. Please feel free to contact our previous clients listed as references for further insight about our rifles.

For those prospective clients that are interested in supplying their own actions please contact us directly.

Brochure # 14 Dated 5/19/07 Prices subject to change without notice

Yes, it is an older version of D'Arcy's "brochure" that he provides to prospective clients.

Chet

Thinking here but, if you've Q's I'd think you could just call D'Arcy and sort them out?

Dober

I have read and copied other wrong info and just want to know the truth. I did not want to bother Darcy since I am not in the market for one of his rifles.

Your information is correct, it matches the brochure he sent me a few months ago.

Chet

"The factory sleeved bolt handle is then pinned and soldered to the main bolt body to prevent any separation between the handle and bolt body while in use"

you can buy a sako for less than 1 grand with a true one piece bolt....for 14k you get a soldered bolt? not saying the legend isnt a spectacular rifle but ...

Makes the 6K system look like a steal........

If I was a CEO-type bazillionaire who wanted to fly around the world whacking big critters, rather than playing tinker toys with factory rifles, I suspect D'Arcy's guns would be in my case.

Exactly.

Whilst others miss blatant tongue-in-cheek jabs......

What these rifles do extremely well, is to show us what good work is. I can only try to do as well.
The scope mounting system really is superb. GD

It's all about the 82 trick moves.

Would be really interesting to know how many of these $14K plus [bleep] over rebuilt M70's old D'arcy has actually put together and sold.

It's amazing that nobody has invented the 83 trick move M700 for the low price of $25k.

Yeah the 2 piece bolt is a Classic gremlin.....but easily fixed.They are mavens for function at Echols shop,and I doubt they would use the action if they did not consider it 110% reliable after modification.We'd all prefer one piece bolts but they stopped making pre 64's a while back now.

Bauer: I don't own one....can't afford it, but am still waiting for you to tell me what is "better"?

Since you had to steal that stupid line, how 'bout you go back to the people you get your info from and steal some more since you obviously have no actual experience.

I don't think someone needs to be a bazillionaire to own one of D'Arcy's rifles. It is just a matter of how you prioritize the money you spend. I am a civil servant and for most of my career I have made less than $50,000 a year. I have Echols Legends in .270 Winchester, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Wby Mag, .338 Win Mag and .416 Rem Mag. It took me 10 years to get them, and I only have four other rifles in my safe, but I don't really find myself hankering for other rifles for some reason.

I do not golf, water ski, snowmobile, own a bass boat or a gigantic diesel redneck limo on 38" mud tires with a tacky sticker in the back window. I hunt and enjoy doing so with the best equipment I can get my hands on.

Come to think of it, that is what my Grandfather always said, "Buy the best quality you can afford, and then take care of what you buy and you will never be left wanting"........he was a pretty smart guy.

Chet

I've never had any problems with the standard M70 as is.There's simply nothing that special about a Mickey stock,spring steel extractor,modified mag box and krieger barrel. D'arcy doesn't have anything worth 14k or more(the best part is much of the work on the rifle isn't even performed by D'arcy).He does however have a very small following of dipsh!ts that buy his rifles as status symbols.Of the 5 people that I know who own one or more of these rifles none are what you would consider a hunter or even a serious shooter.All 5 are millionaires who made their money the American way,they got it through a trust fund.


As for the 82 trick move comment,yes it is very accurate and worthy of repeating.

Bauer: Well, I can't disagree with you about there not being anything wrong with the M70, but having owned one or two in my day, I can say that it very firmly depends on which M70 we're talking about.....

As to the rather broad generalizations concerning the social status of Legend owners, I have known 3 people who owned them;only one was/is a millionaire who didn't inherit a thing....the other two are working folks,and all three are pretty serious hunters.Two have traveled internationally to do it,but hunted extensively here as well.....

I don't know what it is, but to many people, once an item of any kind gets expensive,the people who can afford to buy it(or sacrifice long enough to pay for it) get painted as trust fund babies, or dillitantes with lace underwear,by those who think the item in question is not "worth it"......I see this sort of thing demonstrated all the time....kind of like this reverse snob appeal where only the Real Men hunt with less expensive rifles.....too smart to be conned by a snake oil rifle salesmen.

Actually, myself, I've found the reverse to be true in many instances....and the critics turned out to be the one's who couldn't shoot or hunt their way out of a paper bag.....but thought they could...

The guy who was willing to spend the dough for an accurate ,reliable rifle usually tended to be a pretty serious hunter/shooter.And I have not seen many truly serious hunter/shooters who did not eventually get around to a custom rifle or two, regardless of who made it or how much it costs.

Yes, you are correct....there is nothing special about a M70 Classic, a McMillan stock,and a Krieger barrel....to suggest that a Classic can't be improved upon presupposes it's "perfect" right off the factory floor;anyone knows this isn't true.If it were it would cost 4 times what it does.So, the "trick moves"(regardless how many there are)do make it "better",more reliable,and contribute to the goodness of the end product.

I have learned through bitter and expensive experience that you can put such components in the hands of a shmuck,and wind up with a poor quality rifle that won't shoot for a hill of beans.Put the same components in the hands of a skilled craftsman,and the result is a dead nuts accurate rifle that will function flawlessly and shoot accurately.mostly far better than the guy behind it....and this applies as well to not only M70's but Remingtons and any other action or set of quality components.

This is because, in the end, the difference between a good rifle and a great rifle lies in the skilled hands that put it together....not just in the components from which it is built.Anyone who has owned, hunted with,and shot a good deal with a wide range of customs and factory rifles knows and recognizes this...or should.

As to D'Arcy(or Steve Hielman, or Tom Burgess,or Gene Simillion to name others,not having anything worth $14,000 bucks, that is very firmly their business and I always refrain from telling a man what his time is worth...he sets the price and I can either afford to pay it, or I can't;but if the product,based on its' performance,is stellar, I refrain from saying that it isn't "worth it"...there are some custom smiths for which I would say it is not worth it,because the product did not turn out as good as expected.

From what I know, nothing leaves D'Arcy's shop unless it's as flawless as human hands can make it....some customers take great comfort in owning such a rifle, especially of they have spent enough time and money with lesser stuff,and decide they are all done screwing around,and want something that does what a rifle is supposed to do,every single time..

I am not a customer of Darcy, do know him;but own none of his rifles. That said I have owned customs built by guys like Dale Goens,Len Brownell,Maurice Ottmar,Tom Burgess,Griffin and Howe,Gene Simillion,Kevin Campbell,Clayton Nelson(etc)along with more factory rifles than I want to admit to and hunted with them all....one thing is constant;the customs stood head and shoulders over the factory rifles in one way or another,although many of the factory rifles were very good.

But I never regretted what I paid for the customs built by these outstanding artisans,because every one of them was outstanding.

Like I said before, it takes a great set of hands, skill sets, knowledge,and experience, to build a great rifle.This is unavoidable,and this is what you pay for.The components are only the first step.

And BTW, I have not hesitated to spend for a custom rifle,and am not a trust fund baby,nor a millionaire,and have been known,on occaission,to hunt and do a pretty fair job of it.

Let's not leave Ryan Breeding out of the discussion

http://www.rbbigbores.com/

I understand he has a pretty lengthy waiting list and has had one for years.

By his waiting time it would appear that he makes an outstanding rifle but there is no way that I would pay that kind of money for a rifle with a plastic stock on it!

BobinNH, great post. Your wisdom is much appreciated.

Terry

Absolutely dead-on critique. Calls to mind the quote from P.T. Barnum "nobody ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the American people."

Bob,

While you are a superior creator of prose I can't help remembering the passion of Allen Day here on this forum and his relentless promotion of the D'Arcy Echols rifle.

All the while while I read Allen Day year after year I could not help remembering that I never had a problem with my guns. I have never had much of a problem with my cars or boats either.

I suppose I got this confidence from my late dad who could fix anything. Now I am not him and never will measure up to his skill. Perhaps I have to admit that I have not "got out much" as compared to some. But I have lived aboard the boat for decades fixing, maintaining it and keeping it sound. A boat is far far more complicated than a rifle.

For sure in a lifetime of hunting I have never had a 99 Savage fail or fall short in any way. I keep it in my hands and its good there.

This quote is taken from your advertisement above:

"The factory sleeved bolt handle is then pinned and soldered to the main bolt body to prevent any separation between the handle and bolt body while in use."

The word soldered must be a misprint?

Well I am going hunting for awhile now. Because as he said I don't get out much and some top smith has not checked out my rifles I will pack two of them.

And I will be careful not to loose my keys in the snow.

Don, in all fairness to Allen, (may he RIP) he was a strong proponent of one or two rifles for all of his hunting. And he hunted his @ss off. He didn't have a bunch safe queens in his arsenal and I suspect that any photos (if he had chosen to share them) weren't glory shots of the rifles in his KITCHEN.

Why don't you call him up and ask about wait time? That might tell you something about how many folks are already in line. Might also give you some clue as to how much time is put into each rifle. They aren't just a stock, action, and barrel thrown together.

I used to work for D'Arcy and actually have some idea of what goes into these rifles. Actually we mostly just sat around the shop laughed at all the stupid people that we could scam into spending 14k. Then when one of these "rare" orders did come in we'd just slap it all together, dry-fire it a couple times and call it good. You'd be surprised how easy it is to fool folks smart enough to make good money, or PHs, other guides, etc. Most of them are retards and easily parted with their cash.

Wait, maybe I meant to say the retards are the ones who speak about that which they have no idea.

Interesting way of trolling...

Allen, God rest his sole, owned something like 5 Legends and was a serious hunter and a man of means as well. I believe Barsness even eluded to him in an article about rifle loonies. Guess the way I look at it is if you have the means, [bleep] it and go for it cause you can't take it with you.

"Wait, maybe I meant to say the retards are the ones who speak about that which they have no idea."

But if it wasn't for those guy's, the Campfire would only have 100 members.

Chet

And go for it he did, he was a wealth of experience on most subjects

Alaways had respect for that gentlemen. Tough to argue with experience.

And if you haven't had a mechanical device fail, you haven't used them much.

I'd like to have the funds to pick up one of those rifles. It seems Mr. Echols does a bit of functional testing with his rifles. That is good IMO. Looks to have drawn a home state desert sheep tag.










6.5-06 with a 6x Leupold at 360+ yards.

Since you mentioned Gene Simillion. A local guy who has hunted africa a bunch decided he needed the Simillion experience and ordered a rifle.The rifle gets shipped to a local riflesmith which I use a bunch and of which the proud simillion owner also uses and hangs around the shop all the time. I happen to be in the shop when the rifle is delivered.The proud owner opens the rifle case and finds the rifle has no scope on it.So he calls Simillion up and asks "where is my scope,you said you were going to do load development with my optics?". Simillion replies that it must be a simple mix up,send back the rifle.The owner asks "can't you just send the scope and I'll let my regular smith mount the scope for me and we'll call it good". Simillion replies no way,I have to mount the scope to stand behind our work and we'll test the rifle again". So the guy sends the rifle back and Simillion sends it back about a week later. I get a call from the smith and he says get down to my shop quick you have to see this [bleep] simillion job. I get there and the owner is beyond pissed.The rifle looks ok.Scopes on it as promised.Problem is the bolt handle won't clear the rear of the scope. Simillion didn't do a [bleep] thing but throw the scope on and ship the rifle back.

Watching a 65 year old retired executive go ape [bleep] on simillion over a speaker phone was priceless.The term "You lying Cock$ucker" was used a bunch.

Geezz, funny.....he built my Mashburn,and because it was a wildcat,he did the load workup(not that I needed that but he wanted to be sure the rifle shot well....it does).

I have the targets here.....during testing one scope went TU.....he mounted another.The loads he gave me were very much spot on,as I was unable to really improve upon them,and settled very close to what he recommended.You don't "guess" with a wildcat, do you Bauer? I would imagine you know,right?

So,you got a retired executive who was pissed.....and a 60 year old lawyer who is pleased.........what's your point?

That based on a sample of "two",evenly divided,Gene can't build rifles?

Because I know others who have had Gene build rifles and consider him to be one of the better people out there....and BTW these people all "hunt"....whether at home or by getting on planes and going places......

Just as an aside.....how many customs have you built, bought, shot, and hunted with? I know this is a silly-assed question but I am just curious.......

Because I am not trying to put you on the "spot", but am trying to understand your line of thought......is it that these guys charge to much? That the "improvements" they make to a rifle are of no value? If so,then I suppose that the same would have to be said of Griffin&Howe,Al Biesen, Tom Shelhammer,Tom Burgess, Karl Kampfeld, Micky Coleman,Mark Penrod, or a host of other custom builders.....did these guys make "trick moves",too, with the Mausers, Model 70's or Rem 700's that they work over?

There must be a lot of pretty dumb riflemen out there,who know less about these things than you do,because these smiths have always had back orders for their work and folks line up to pay for it........

Here's another rock star..

..and you know all this...."How"?

Tell me of your experience with these things....I'm all ears....

Savage: I have seen your rifles...you have a lot of really nice rifles And I am not surprised that they all "work"...

But I bring to your attention, the fact that many of them are no longer made....and they work because of the skilled craftsmanship with which they were built....the point I think you are missing, is how much it would cost to build them today...your Mannlichers,your Savage 99's, your pre 64 M70's and your Mausers....all dead and gone, and no longer manufactured, because to build for example, your Mannlichers, would cost thousands today....

And to have a Mauser 98 action manufactured today does cost about $3-$4k from someone like Stuart Satterllee or Granite Mountain.....not to mention what it would cost to build a Savage 99....which is why it is no longer built and modern rifles are built more cheaply to hit "price points"....do they always "work" as well as the stuff you own?.......uh...no.

Some one building a custom rifle today is simply trying to obtain the same level of reliability, accuracy and quality of workmanship that we took for granted years past,obtain the same attention to detail,accuracy, reliability,and function that we came to expect before rifles got "cheap".....

Not that you are doing it,so this is not directed to you as I know you know better,..... but why some folks rail against this, accuse everyone who buys them of being "stupid" for paying the price,and accuse them all of being spoiled brats and trust fund babies,and people who are not hunter/shooters, is something that I don't quite understand.

Personally I think it all boils down to that same old sad human characteristic that has existed for centuries....Jealousy....the Green Monster.

There is no other logical explanation.....

How is this trolling? I copied this info and I believed it was true, I also copied and read that they did 82 production procedures and I just found out it was BS. I am just looking for the truth about one of the top builders of custom rifles and what he does to his rifles.

ED:Why don't you just call him and ask him, instead of depending on 3rd party sources for the information?

I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you....

My father was visiting over the holidays, and he is quite a gun looney, and an amateur machinist. So I took him to meet D'Arcy. First we asked about his sheep hunt and got a 15 minute description that was just the way any committed hunter would tell it (he hunted 19 days for that ram.) Then the discussion turned to business philosophy and this thread in particular.

I am very sensitive about going over to his shop and wasting his time, because I will never buy a rifle from him (although I do have 3 of his stocks.) When I asked to come by, I said we only needed 20 minutes, and scheduled it for the very end of the day. We ended up staying 90, and only extracted ourselves for fear of being late to a family dinner.

My father ran large organizations in his career, typically over 150 employees at a time, and was quite successful at it. He can spot a bullschit artist a mile away. He was impressed by D'Arcy's thoughtfulness.

D'Arcy pays his two employees fairly. He believes that he should be paid fairly. He believes there should be a decent margin on his products that is a return on his investment in product development and years of effort in refining it.

I believe he is right.

I wouldn't begin to place Coleman and Kampfeld into the ranks of douches like Echols and Simillion.Colemans too honest for one thing.Coleman summed it up best when he stated that a good riflesmith is nothing more then a good machinist.If Coleman and Kampfeld would simply baffle more people with bullsh!t,raise their prices and implement the 82 trick moves they might could some day become like Gene and D'arcy.

Melvin Forbes would be a good example of someone who actually has a clue and provides a real product,rather then a [bleep] over rebuilt rendition of a factory action.On top of that Forbes rifles are a bargain at the price.I've got two of them and would say they out perform anything Echols and Simillion have managed to modify..I've had a couple dozen so called customs and when it comes right down to it,the biggest improvement any of them provide over a factory rifle is the ability to vary barrel contour and add a mickey stock.

Only on the internet could the simplicity of a bolt action rifle be complicated enough for the need of spending $14k.

Hell bob you not only went with some half assed chambering like the mashburn but also used Simillion.That's like bragging about the length of your wife's peter.

Well Bauer once again nothing much of any substance except casting aspersions against guys you don't even know,and whose products you have absolutely no experience with,buttresed by the story of a ficticious retired executive who was unhappy.....(I mught add that the experience you cited amounts to nothing more than hearsay;at least my experiences with Gene are first hand knowledge,unlike yours, which would not make it to first base in an evidentiary sense,so you are sunk there).....

As to bragging on the Mashburn and comparing the rifle and load to a non-existent peter,I think if you are at all intellectually honest you can read my post and see that there was no "bragging" involved,merely a recitation of fact...

And in order to demonstrate your vast experience in these matters,you toss in a couple of NULA's ( a fine lightweight rifle BTW)that uses Douglas barrels and Timney triggers(BTDT),with a nicely machined little action,and good stock, but that seems incapable of surviving a single dunking in salt water before the trigger turns to rusted rubble...this isn't Melvin's fault for sure; his action does not have a trigger.....in any even I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Even at 60 I can make it up a mountain at 9000 feet with a 7-8 pound rifle......

In eny event wrestling with midgets and playing "20 Questions" with idiots is not my strong suit;I could give your posts more consideration if you could string together a series of cogent thoughts and substantive criticisms without punctuating them with misspelled obscenities,and sexual innuendos, but I suppose that is too much to ask......

At the end of the day, I guess you are asking who I am to believe......my pals who have Echols Legends,and Alan Day(rest his soul)................................................................................or you

I don't need a CF Poll to figure THAT one out....

That was far more thoughtful, patient, and kind than Bauer had coming.

Concur. Someone has started out the new year with an awfully big chip.

Utah: I am too polite and very patient....thrashing fools is something I undertake with displeasure. There's not much fun in it....

That about sums it up.

I drive a Toyota and my wife drives a Honda. I remember thinking "Why would anybody waste all that money on a Lexus?" and then I drove one from Sacramento to San Francisco and back. I now know why people would waste money on a Luxus: A) They have the money and B) They're nicer to drive than a Toyota or Honda. Are they $60,000 nicer?? Yes, if you have $60,000 to burn!!

Most of our members probably don't remember Allen Day but he used to post here quite a bit. He had a great deal of experience and I really respected his opinion. He hunted more game in a year than I would in ten years and had the means to buy the rifles he wanted and would put them to good use. Who could argue with that?? Certainly not me......

Hell, if you have the $$ and just WANT one for the hell of it, I wouldn't argue with that either! Having nice stuff is a big perk to having money. But as with most things in life; if others don't have something you have, they'll either get it or knock it (and will usually knock it), even if it's better than what they have.

** Edited to add a disclaimer **

Equipment is purchased but skill is developed and great equipment won't compensate for poor skill.....

I remember Alan vividly. I didn't always agree with him but I also KNEW that what he believed was from what he DID, not read about...

Don't include Allen Day in this.The guy was little more then a aristocrat wannabe operating off the money generated from selling his parents west coast acreage during the housing boom.It was well known that he was over extended and heading for a crash.But he was the epitomy of the type who buys a $14k M70.

Having been present when Gene gave his lame excuses for a non functional rifle,not once but twice and later shooting that rifle after a smith with half a clue properly mounted a scope on it,I'd say I've seen enough of Gene's work in the first hand to conclude that I wouldn't waste my own money on it.Of course the rifle in question was built in response to the owners friend having bought a Legend which I also shot.

On the subject of the NULA's,neither one has a douglas barrel on it and I highly doubt the Timney triggers will cause any issues.Funny you would whine about douglas and yet mention Mickey Coleman who has openly praised douglas barrels.
Just how much salt water are you exposed to bob?Your idea of western hunting bob is riding around in a pick up outside of Casper Wyoming on a private ranch zoo hunt? I've no doubt you're capable of riding in a pick up or atv to elevations of 9000 ft.

Bob it goes without saying that there's a plethora of things that aren't your strong suit,with intelligence being at the top.

What a piece of work.

Bob,
I know exactly what you meant and you described it well. However, I do want to make one clarification.

The trigger rusting was entirely my fault. First I'm the one who dunked it and second I'm the one who came home and just wiped the exposed surfaces off and did nothing else. I noticed the little specs of rust showing on the edges next to the tang, but just wiped then off and went hunting in W.V. and Pa. It took three months for the full effects to bear damage. If I would have addressed the issue, it wouldn't have been one.

I don't think the end result would have been any different as far as rust for any rifle no matter the maker. The Model 70 may have stayed operational, but there would have been damage given the same level of omission.

I also would be surprised if any custom builder-Echols or even the Pope-would have handled the issue more efficiently or with more humor than Melvin Forbes. Also the cost for his time was essentially lunch for him and his two men.

Like I mentioned I know what you meant. However, as you also know comments can become greatly exaggerated here on the fire.

Oh, BTW. Douglas rocks when Melvin does his magic with one.

Addition: Fortunately I did clean the barrel once or twice.

I agree. There are things and there are special things and they usually cost more. If one can afford, appreciate and possibly even factor in justify the cost of an Echols, they make the decision.

Others can agree or not, it is irrelevant.

Bauer,

Having never shot nor used an Echols Legend I am really not qualified to make any statements on the rifle but my bet is Echols knows what he is about.

On the other hand I have seen and hunted the ranch and area Bob likes to frequent here in Wyoming and to call it a zoo speaks to your ignorance.

It is a general deer area interspaced with public ground and public access and gets plenty of hunting pressure. The hunting is good, as anyone with half a brain would ensure before traveling to WY from NH, but hardly a zoo.

I have know the owner of this ranch for over 20 years and the fact that he even lets a New Hampshire Lawyer on the ranch is testament to Bob�s character and manner.

I have also seen Bob shoot in person and he knows his way around a rifle and his personal hunting rifle arrived in Wyoming this year with a perfect zero, which he amply demonstrated.

So based on my personal observation of Bob I can say if he says the rifle Gene Simillion built him is up to snuff then it is, unquestionably, up to snuff.

What I really don�t understand is why you have such a hard on to demean Echols. I don�t think you are a competitor, are you??

If someone wants what Echols offers why do you demean the hunter and Echols?? You are not losing anything in the deal.

As Bob pointed out there is more to this emotional response from you than you would like to admit.

Bauer,
You might give some consideration to stopping hanging the jaw on a whole bunch of good folks. You are not in any way gaining any respect from any of those of us that are reading this thread.
You can spend your rifle money on anything you want to spend it on I don't care but if I make a deal with Mr. Echols I would hope you wouldn't care.
I gotta a good friend that has a King Air. I'm not mad at Beechcraft because he owns one and he had to do a $19K brake job on it. I just hope he stops by and picks me up every now and then. Sure wish he liked to hunt more than he does.
Bob ever allows me to use any of his rifles I am not gonna be mad at him either and I doubt I will have to worry about waiting on him at 9000' In fact one day maybe our paths will cross.
I hope you will find the heart to quit hammering these folks it's not making you look good IMO.


Dave

Bob's allowed back to the ranch because it's pay to play.And bob parts with his money easily,especially if he's allowed to hunt via truck window..

John I've no doubt that a rifle keeping its zero is a new concept to you,especially if the rifle in question has had some of your magic techniques worked on it.

It's nothing less then amusing to see some idiot try to justify paying $14k for a fiberglass stock,Krieger barrel and M70 action.That type of [bleep] can only be topped by some tool piecing together HS precision junk,a M700 action and how could we forget the magical bedding block worth 100 trick moves in and of itself.All for even more money then a legend.

+1



Wow,

The emotions are running high.

What are you hiding??

Seriously dude this level emotional response does not come from simply not liking a particular gunbuilder or the rifle he produces. There is something much deeper here and it just might be colored green.

Why are you so emotionally invested in running Echols and Simillion down? Where is the upside for you in this game??

John this is the internet.Only a tool such as yourself would find emotional connection to it.

Fair enough. I apologize.

I think there's a more appropriate word than "work".

John:Thanks.

For the record, I don't shoot my deer from trucks...never have...not a single one.And I do hunt, on foot,to 9-10,000 feet. Not as fast as I used to because I am 61 now....but I still do it....I won't apologize to anyone for the way I kill my game.

And I pay to hunt on half that ranch....because that half was sold and a lease program is in effect.The owner of the other half has never accepted any money from me to hunt there,even though I have offered many times.Neither would his brother,before that part of the ranch was sold. I have hunted that property since 1979-1980,in addition to many other places throughout the west and Canada.

So, I am invited back each year for reasons that have nothing to do with money.All of this really has nothing to do with the topic at hand,but has been made an issue.

Also, I have no squawk with Douglas barrels;(nor Mel Forbes' rifles)..I have cooked quite a few that shot real well....

I did not know Allen Day died.He was a gentleman.

I have two of Gene's rifles,would not part with either.

Someone got his @sshole pill prescription refilled.

An excerpt from a Patricia Cornwell novel no dobt...

Words of wisdom Bob. As well said as it could be and certainly true. Guys that jump up and bash another for buying an expensive custom rifle are usually running on petty jealousy or simple ignorance. Real truth is it is none of their business. Bauer wins the 1st 2011 AZZHAT OF THE WEEK AWARD !! 163bc

Actually 163 Bauer is beyond Azzhat...Any Keyboard commando that casts dispersions like this in the safety of whatever [bleep] he currently lives in is a sorry excuse for a human being.

This fall I put together a 300 H&H, buying a legend stock from D'Arcy. In the following weeks I had many phone conversations with D'Arcy and his crew as I was doing all the stockwork myself and was looking for advice. I got nothing short of exceptional help in this regard as well as several long, enjoyable chats with D'Arcy about rifles, hunting and life. In all, he made maybe a couple hundred bucks from me, yet all along I was treated as if I was ordering up a top shelf rifle from him.
From what I know D'arcy is quite busy and with as many hours as they have into building one of their rifles, they are making a living and not a fortune. Personally, I'm glad there are folks out there who can appreciate such fine riflework and will pay for it.

D'arcy was one of the few that took the time to send me a pm over on AR when I was asking questions about attending Trinidad or CST in Denver.

Always got the impression that he is a straight guy.

Where I work - we bid on freight all day. If we start winning more than 50% of our bids - we know our price is too low. I VERY much doubt D'arcy hung his shingle and stuck the 14k price tag on it - 2 days out of school.

Thank you. This was all I was looking for. I was wrong I should have asked Darcy myself. I apologize to anyone I offended.

I'll say.

If you have no issue with Douglas barrels then why did you try to make them an issue earlier?

Think it's time to break out a well known phrase:

DFTFT

There are a lot of folks who will insist that their Rem 870 shotguns work just as good as a Fabbri, that their Hyundai cars are as good as a Ferrari and that their choice of rifles are as good as an Echols.
All that tells me is that they have never fired a Fabbri, driven a Ferrari or used an Echols. It is like the old fable about the fox trying to reach the grapes - since they were out of his grasp he decided they must be sour grapes.

you crossed a line....enough!!!![bleep] enough..................

I don't think I've ever seen someone hit "[bleep]" status so fast but I gotta say I don't think I've ever seen anyone try as hard as Bauer did either.....

I've had 3 NULA rifles. All were shooters. Mel is a great guy.

None of them are in the same league for fit/finish/reliability as my Legend. I've had 9 custom/semi-custom left handed rifles. The only one I will never sell is my Legend. It's that good.

Jeff

Might not a been tryin hard at all

no schidt, just yer usuall BS...
My bad fer takin' da' bait...

hang in there Eddie Bauer...

When you spend that much money on a M70 you're pretty much stuck with it.Nobody else is going to give you anywhere near what you paid.

Would love to hear all the reliability issues with the NULA.

A post so good that I just have to bring it back up to the top!

John

The problem phil is when you buy a Fabbri or Ferrari you're actually getting a proprietary design from the ground up,that actually has a value.Not a [bleep] over rebuilt M70,thats been fitted with a few bolt on after market parts and given a 5 figure price tag for nothing in return...The dollar price paid for a D'arcy M70 is the real legend,not the rifle itself.

That's a lot of money for a rifle that looks like a Black Shadow. If it were me, 14 grand would buy a Jerry Fisher or a Bisen. Thanks...Bill.

I cannot comment on the NULA's as I have never owned one, and generally do not make authoritative posts about rifles I have never owned.

As far as the resale value/demand on the used Legends go, you would be surprised. Every once in a while, a used Legend or Classic comes up for sale and they usually go for more than the original owner paid for them. A good example of this occured when Allen Day took ill in the Summer of 2008 and decided to sell his collection of Legends. As I recall, Allen had a Legend built on a pre-64 action in .270 Winchester, two .300 Win Mags, two .338 Win Mags, a .375 H&H and a .416 Rem Mag all on "Classic" actions with the Burgess bottom metal. Allen told me he had puchased all of the rifles in the early half of the last decade and had paid between $6,000 and $8,000 for the rifles. He sold all but one of them within a month and got $9,000 for the .270, $10,000 for the .300's, .338 and .416 and $11,000 for the .375. He actually made money on all of the rifles, after having enjoyed them for several years.

I purchased his .270, and it has become my favorite rifle. The fit, finish and function is flawless. It shoots 130 grain Partitions and TTSX's into .300" using 60.5 grains of H4831 and will put three 150 grain A-Frames into .500". I have killed an elk, two big Wyoming mule deer, two nice Northern Idaho whitetails and an antelope with it over the last two years and I am going to take it to the Nutzotin Mountains in AK this Summer for a Dall and grizzly hunt. I think Allen would have approved.

Does anyone "need" an Echols rifle (or Simillion, Miller, Penrod or Rigby for that matter) no. An animal shot with an over the counter Savage (complete with barrel nut) is just as dead, but, for those that can appreciate the difference between "good enough" and "nearly perfect", hunting with one sure is enjoyable.

Chet

Chet, excellent post. I'd actually wondered what became of Allen's rifles. Good to know at least one is in good hands!

So what would be the resale value of a $14,000 Echols Legend?

+1.

Well stated, ummmm, and true.

I concur and will gladly bring it to the surface again..

Dober

I'll bet there is a special Mojo attached to that rifle and especially when hunting with it. I have seen pictures of it and it is a fine fine rifle.

Bauer, how many Echol's rifles have you actually used ? And why are you so down on them? You are not one of those talented but starving guild members are you?

I can name half a dozen of my clients who regularily use their Echol's rifles, as well as one African PH who thinks they are so good that he uses one. I would say that the fact that so many of D'Arcy's customers actually use their rifles in the field (unlike many of the other high dollar rifles mentioned here) and quite often purchase more, is a pretty good indication of their value.

Phil I've shot two of the legends.I'm not down on them,they simply aren't worth 14 grand.No M70 is.

I'd never put much faith in what a client uses,the guy buying a legend is the type that lets someone else do his hunting for him,allen being a prime example of this.The client bought the rifle to impress friends he doesn't have and people he doesn't even know.

Who's the African PH that uses a legend?

How about worked over Mausers ? Or restocked Win M-21's? Or Shelby mustangs? or Carbon Supercubs?
Or even my own bear hunts . I couldn't afford my own hunts but I am usually back ordered for years and have deposits on hunts as far out as 2015. Just because you and I can not afford them there are too many folks who believe they are worth the asking price.

Why is it that you have to bash someone who has passed on and cannot defend themselves ? Are you that much of a [bleep] lowlife that you have to revert to those tactics, wait a minute I answered my own question.

Athol Frylink is the Zambian PH who ordered and uses a Legend and I assure you it is not for show. The man knows good guns.
Neither are the ones used by my clients. Most of them do a lot of hunting and shooting on their own and only use guides when it makes the most sense.

THERE is a LIE right there....

I GUARANTEE you that ANY of the surviving Winchester m70s Jack O'Connor once had built for himself are worth at least 14K on the open market....

Any day of the week.

You're driving WAYYYYYYYYY too fast for your rather dim, and yellowed headlights. Perhaps it's occurred to you that in much of the hunting that you're referring to, one is required by law to have a guide?

OK, I have read the stupid nasty comments that have been posted here about the Legends, D'Arcy Echols, Gene Simillion, Steve Heilman and the other mastercraftsmen who have been insulted by those who probably could not see the difference between a four year old's watercolors and a Monet. I own a Legend and would like to own more. It simply outperforms everything else. Not only is it accurate, but it functions perfectly all the time in all conditions.
I didn't understand what a performance sports car was until I got my 400 hp yellow Corvette. Now everything else is pretty boring.
My Legend will produce groups less than 1.5" with hunting ammunition at 300 yards. Equally important, it will always feed, extract, and eject perfectly every time in all conditions. I don't bother taking a box full of rifles to Africa cause my rifle will not break down, or have the bolt fall off, or have anything else go wrong at some terrible time.
There is a big difference between a hunting rifle that can see use under difficult conditions and a M700, assembled by a machinist, which is single loaded and is used to shoot groups off a bench with target bullets.

Of course that begs the question of what the average Legend typically sells for used does it not? Maybe it's a stupid question due to the circles they travel in though.

Also, due to the relatively low number of them out there, given Echol's backlog..

Supply/demand affects the street value on the secondary market..

I see the car analogy being used here so after owning the Vette, would you buy a race tuned Subaru if they tuner claimed it would perform the same as a 400 hp Vette ?

Everything will get you down the road. With some things there is the knowing that you have the very best.
I have that with the Echols and the Corvette and my Tom Burgess/Monty Kennedy and my Simillion. There isn't anything more to be gained. Gene Simillion, and Echols, and Heilman, and Penrod produce ultra high quality rifles. They are more than just "good enough".
I would never belittle someone who stops at "good enough" but never try to convince me that good enough is the same as the very best cause it is not so.

That actually makes perfect sense to me.

John Oosthuizen, of Hunters and Guides-Africa owns and uses a Legend in .458 Lott to back up his clients.
Kim Bonnet, of Bucks and Bulls Outfitters, one of the most reputable elk and Mule deer guides in the Mountain West, owns and hunts with a Legend in 7mm Rem mag.
Kirk Kelso, of Pusch Ridge Outfitters, owns and uses Legends in 257 Weatherby and 300 Weatherby.

I think it is humorous that you have decided that someone that uses a best quality rifle is someone that lets others "do their hunting for them". I have been using Echols rifles since 1998. In fact, I bought the first .338 Win. Mag Legend and the first Lightweight Legend D'Arcy ever built. I have been hunting throughout the West, Canada and Alaska for 25 years, and I have been on exactly three guided hunts. All of those hunts were in Canada where I was forced to have a guide. Hell, I even moved to AK from 2005 to 2009 so I could hunt sheep, brown bear and grizzly without a guide. If there is anything more "unguided" than having yourself dropped off in the Chugach Range for two weeks to hunt sheep and bear on your own, I would like to know what it is. And by the way, I used one of my Legends on that hunt and took a 40.5 inch Dall with 14.25" bases and a nice boar grizzly.

This Fall alone, I have spent over 50 days hunting big game in the Salt River Range of Wyoming, the Abajo Mountains of Southeastern Utah, the Red Desert of Wyoming and the Clearwater Mountains of Northern Idaho. Not a single day was guided, but I did have my .270 Legend with me every day. I hope Allen Day did not think the rifle was going to be a safe queen when he sold it to me.

If you would like to see some really unguided hunting in some 11,000 foot mountains where you will hike 8-10 miles a day and gain and loose 7000 vertical feet, I would be happy to guide you. Just shoot me a PM.

Chet

Chet, what does that .270 weigh, scoped and unscoped, if you don't mind?

Oh, and I'm sending you a PM on that guided hunt

As I recall, the .270 Legend weighs 7.75 pounds with D'Arcys rings, the heavy Burgess bottom metal and a Leupold 2.5-8 scope. Since the scope weights about 11 oz, the rifle must weigh about 7 pounds.

For anyone who is interesed, D'Arcy has started manufacturing his high-end bottom metal (similar to the Burgess pattern) in aluminum alloy (I forget the exact alloy designation). He is also contemplating making his one piece rings out of the same material for clients that want a lighter rifle.

Chet

You're "not down on them"? You've got a eleven page thread where you've ridiculed every aspect of Echol's work not to mention calling the man a douche.
You obviously have an axe to grind.

Now that's TFF

Thanks Chet! I'm assuming that the .270 does not have a Legend Edge? IIRC the Legend Edge is a fairly recent addition on Darcy's part.

I've gotta admit....I'm sorely tempted to sell a few and get on Darcy's waiting list. All despite the fact I'm a public school teacher who hunts my own game.

You are correct.

Chet

Again just because somebody with more money then brains pays out some inflated price doesn't mean its worth it.

Anyone have any idea of the difference in weight between a standard Legend McMillan and an Edge McMillan?

Suppose I could ask Darcy, but hate to bother a smith who should be working

Hi,

You can bother us anytime you want. Shop phone: 435 755-6842. There are only 3 of us in the shop: D'Arcy, myself, and our apprentice Matt. We don't let the team of illegal aliens who do all of the real work answer the phone. (Ha ha!)

The difference between a standard Legend stock and an Edge Legend 10-12 oz.

Brian Bingham
D'Arcy Echols & Co.
Millville UT USA

Hey thanks Brian!

OK, so what's a new Legend going to set me back, and how long is the wait?

Feel free to use PM if you'd rather.

Again phil you're trying to compare $1500 worth of M70 to a mauser that most likely has custom engraving and stocking which still isn't worth the asking price,but is still worth more then a mcmillan stocked M70.
Mustangs as with any vintage car are a money pit and subject to whatever somebody is willing to pay and in most cases it's less then what seller has into it.
Carbon Supercubs along with striped down cubs actually allow for a performance gain,which for the guy taking off on a sand bar etc can be realized..

Please phil tell us how a Mcmillan stocked M70 with a krieger barrel,rebuilt mag box and spring steel extractor is worth 14 grand and while you're at it,please splain' the performance gains of the legend rifle over a M70 with the same parts used and assembled by a competent smith for a fraction of the cost.

How many times you had D'arcy hunt with you phil?

Brian is there any way you could share the actual steps used in the making of a Legend M70.Preferably not just a copy and paste of the standard brochure type response? Thanks.

Mr. Bauer, I have tried to stay out of this idiotic thread, and just let others state the obvious. Alas, that doesn't seem to work with you. I am reluctant to criticize anyone that I don't know, or have experience with. I don't know you and have never had any experience with you, but in your case, I will make an exception.

By what divine guidance do you presume to decide for everyone on the fire what a particular item is worth to anyone but you? I'd say that is a bit on the arrogant side. To set the record straight, an item, any item, is worth exactly what the owner of the item is willing to take for it, and, a buyer is willing to pay for it. It makes absolutely no difference what you think, or I think, or, for that matter, anyone else thinks -- unless we/they are either the seller or buyer. Only then does our/their opinions count.

I do not own a Legend, nor am I likely to do so. It is simply not in my budget. However, if I could afford one, it would be high on my list of priorities. I have, however, known D'Arcy Echols for a very long time. He is a hard working, very capable and talented guy. Where do you get the gall to call him some of the names you've mentioned? It's pretty certain that you do not know him.

I did not know Allen Day. I did exchange e-mails with him, and I once bought a pre-64 Model 70 action from him. I read most of his posts until he got sick, and frankly, I found him to make far more sense than you do.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you feel that the price of a Legend is too high, then don't buy one. That's pretty basic isn't it? On the other hand, if I want one, and I can afford it, please tell me exactly what business it is of yours if I decide to buy one. I'll answer for you -- none.

If I hit the lottery, strike oil in my back yard, or find the Lost Dutchman's mine, I'll be sure to ask for your opinion before ordering a Legend -- not!

TT

Bauer,

Sure.

Receiver: true receiver face, re-cut receiver threads true to bore line, recut lug seats true to bore line, plug and tig weld the ejector slot cut on underside of action, machine rear of recoil lug square to boreline, machine underside of receiver parallel to bore line and rails, surface grind front ring concentric to bore line, surface grind rear bridge true to bore line, machine magazine port to accept 4 round capacity hardened stainless steel magazine box 3.660 id length, machine rails to proper shape and dimension for optimal feeding, machine loading port to 3.600" to facilitate easier loading and ejection, machine scope mount holes true to bore line and tap to 8-40, drill and tap third mount hole in rear bridge, re shape rear tang, replace ejector roll pin and fit oversized hardened pin, fit oversized pin to trigger/bolt stop. Fit bolt stop for proper engagement, fit ejector for proper ejection. Fit Echols 4 round capacity magazine box. Hand file bullet ramp to proper shape for feeding, polish bullet ramp. Stone and hand polish rails to 320 grit. Stone and hand polish raceway. Radius all sharp edges and hand polish to 320 grit.

Bolt: Machine locking lug surfaces, machine bolt face, machine bolt cone angle, lap lugs, refit cocking cam for better engagement/easier cocking, pin and solder bolt handle assembly to bolt body, correct firing pin protrusion, machine and polish safety shroud, re-engrave fire, machine clearance cut for quieter safety operation, correct safety timing, hone and polish safety plunger hole and plunger for smoother detent engagement, fit new extractor and reshape for proper controlled feeding, hand polish to 320 grit.

Stock: Select appropriate Echols Legend stock, Machine aluminum pillars , pillar bed with full contact aluminum pillars at all three guard screw positions, epoxy bed receiver and bottom metal with Marine Tex, epoxy bed barrel channel for .040" free-float, e cut bolt handle notch, cut loading port side to follow contours of loading port, machine aluminum swivel stud anchors for front and rear swivel studs, install swivel stud anchors, hand file and sand stock detail lines, install and grind recoil pad at customers LOP, fill external stock blems and hand sand stock surface prior to painting, mask all bedding surfaces and recoil pad, paint stock with Polane.

Scope Mounts: make drawing of receiver, establish appropriate scope height to insure lowest possible mount without barrel or bolt handle interference, establish proper scope position fore/aft for proper eye relief, select appropriate oversized Echols steel mount blank (1" or 30mm), machine ring bore to appropriate size plus .001", in same machine set up machine bore receiver ring radius (established during the surface grinding procedure) to underside of mount, split ring halves with slitting saw, drill and counterbore mount screw holes, fit mounts to receiver and inspect on surface plate for concentricty fore and aft (.001" deviation tolerance), lap rings 320 grit to remove machine marks(takes about 3 minutes when properly fit), machine lightening cuts and cosmetic angles, machine radius on corners, deburr sharp edges and hand polish to 320 grit.

Feeding: Assemble new dummy rounds with wide variety of common bullet types, install Echols follower, check feeding, adjust magazine box lip angle for proper cartridge release timing, check feeding again, reshape extractor so it will close over chambered cartridge, check feeding again slow and fast, check feeding with mixed cartridges, give to apprentice to check feeding, give to D'Arcy to check feeding, check feeding again. Check ejection of empty brass. Check feeding again.

Trigger: Machine sear engagement for proper release, polish surfaces, adjust to 3.25 lb. pull, check proper safety function.

Then we go to the range and put an average of 75-100 rounds of factory and hand loads through the gun after barrel break-in. We install one of our test scopes of known accuracy for the initial accuracy testing. If it doesn't shoot it comes back to the shop and is made to shoot. If the barrel is bad it gets pulled and a new one installed at our expense. If it does shoot then the caliber and maker are machine engraved on the barrel, final inspection is done and then it is sent up to Half Moon in MT for hot caustic bluing. Upon the rifles return all parts are cleaned and treated with Corrosion X and the final assembly is done. The customer's scope is installed and zeroed. Final inspection is made and then the rifle is packaged and shipped.

That's about it. (Unless I forgot something, I think I am crosseyed from staring at this screen so long!)

Brian

Thanks Brian. How many legends do you guys sell a year?

If you're in deed doing all this work to the action alone,why not go with a custom action already built to those specs?

Bauer--
How about you post your W-2 on the internet, and then think about asking how many guns they sell?

[/quote]

Again just because somebody with more money then brains pays out some inflated price doesn't mean its worth it. [/quote]

Bauer, I guess you never figured out that money and brains usually balance each other out, People with a fair amount of money have a fair amount of brains to earn that money..

Now quit pouting because you have neither..

never ceases to amaze me how much bandwidth one troll can suck up...

Bauer, I have been to D'Arcy's shop a couple of times and actually watched what they do to build a rifle. Claiming that some local gun plumber can build a rifle that is as good, because he uses the same parts, is like thinking that the average Doc-in-a-box is capable of brain surgery because he too went to medical school.

And as if it is any of your business, D'Arcy has never hunted with me nor been to my camp. I simply can realize quality when I see it in action.

Bauer,

A custom action would be great. Our production is so small (12-14 a year) that it wouldn't make economic sense for us to make one ourselves.

There are a lot of good custom actions being produced out there now but most are lacking in some respect. We find the Model 70 to be a good platform for a hunting rifle build: nice clean lines lines, just the right size for commonly available belted mag rounds, historical value, controlled feed, great trigger design, stable bedding platform, etc.

Cheers,

Brian

Brian, taking the high road here suits you well. My best to you, D'Arcy and Matt.

Terry

Are you using the new S.C. made Model 70's or do you use the older Model 70's?

No question and I second that as well. I must say I had no idea that much work went into one of those rifles. Mr. Bingham is a class act.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the amount of work done, Mr. Bingham! You displayed a lot more patience and class in your responses than I would have, sir.

Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing...

It is worth $14,000 because that is what people will pay and they will repeat the exercise. And if they were only doing it to impress people then they might get a Weibe rifle for the same money but with wood stock or a bolt gun from H&H or Purdey. For the money Allen spent on Echols rifles and also his friend John55 they could of bought a bolt gun in 300 H&H and a 375 H&H from Hollands or Purdey. Way more impressive than Echols guns.

Just about everyone (except maybe you) knows whether it be a rifle, a car or whatever, once you go above the standard article then entering value for money is ridiculous.

I have had rifles from the Wby custom shop and they are superb. In fact I did it four times. Way over priced. In fact I think each time you call Dean it adds to the price. But they arrived in Australia all perfect. And the whole package makes you feel good. They call you and inform etc and etc. Could they do anything a standard Mark V could not do, off course not. Although you know it is good before it gets here. I have no idea what they do to the actions. For all I know they just start with picking the best from 20. But I could not care how they get to the finished product.

If I lived in the US of A there is no question that I would have two Echols and they would be 300 H&H and 375 H&H. I have spoken to John55 enough to know what the Echols gun is about. And of course like other Echols owners he had about everything else before an Echols and then kept getting them. And contray to what you are posting his knowledge on rifles and reloading is very high.

You miss a couple of simple facts. Firstly, I don't think anyone does not regard an Echols as as being superior to a Model 70 Super Grade etc. Thus if you have the money you buy the Echols. If you pay the money for an Echols and then get another Echols and then get another Echols then obviously they were good value for the person buying them.

Big Time "DWH" to Brian (darn well handled)

Dober

Yep, super classy!

for those of you who don't know D'Arcy, Brian is a great front man for the good-cop-bad-cop routine

And how.

Indeed.

Bauer,

If you were anything of a rifleman you would have seen this work in the two (2) Echols you shot. Why would you actually ask about it if you were any judge of a custom rifle?

Keep guessing Knuckehead, it is what you are good at.

Knowing what goes into a custom is way beyond your pay grade.

Brian,

You forgot to add the last step to building Legends, where everybody in the shop drives home at the end of each day in their Rolls-Royces.

See you in Reno!

It was plain that the mcmillan quality was there,the krieger quality was there and the M70 action was typical.The 14 grand worth of value and price tag was rather elusive though.

Obviously a douche of your caliber Burns who thinks HS precision represents $20k worth of value,would be able to see $14k in a M70.

I can't believe D'arcy isn't using a bedding block like you Burns.You should fill him in on this trade secret,the bedding block alone would add another 2 grand to the price tag..

Burns you might want to go a little easy on D'arcy when you get into the whole aluminum to steel heat ratio index or whatever the [bleep] it was you were waxing on.It was a tough sell on here,so you can only imagine how tough it will be for a guy who is only capable of building a $14k M70 having it explained to him by a hero capable of producing a $20k M700.

did you get banned again.........?

Bauer,

Yea you got it all figured out. Shot 2 different Echols and have to ask about what modifications were done to the action.

You sir are a real expert.

Clueless does not even begin to describe you.

Riflemen can tell what has and what has not been done to a factory action with a minimal inspection. Wannabes complain about how sour the grapes are that they have never tasted.

Kinda sour are they?? What did you expect??

I hear Marlin has a nice rifle for $300. You should check it out.

The Marlin ain't [bleep] without a bedding block.

While I think we have proven without a doubt you don't know schit about an Echols Legend you may know about the Marlin. Hope they fix it in the future and you can get your ideal hunting rifle.

We are all victim of our experience.

Luckily you got us all learned up about $20k HS precision M700's also.

Would the Greybull signature series bedding block alone on a marlin command a $10k price tag Burns?

Where in hell do you come up with $20K?

The $20k model is limited edition.It's engraved with a pic of burns stump breaking his mule.

Bauer,

I just came up with a curious thought?

Do you have a SC FN Winchester M70 in 375HH?


?

Thomas

Value?, Worth?
Pretty subjective terms because everybody has their own relative idea of it. Based on Brians excellent outline of all their machining steps and 12-14 rifles per year in production I'm going to guesstimate that they probably have close to 400+ hrs per rifle in man hours, possibly more. I can only imagine the tooling set up time for each of the operations. Where I live a highly skilled machinist makes over $30 an hr before benefits, employer taxes, SSI, etc. Thats over 12k per rifle just in manpower. Add to that, tooling, CNC equipment, parts, buildings, lights, insurance, phones, etc, etc,
Time is money and so is the value of highly skilled craftsmen.
A very good attorney friend of mine won't bat an eye when he tells you his going rate is $350 an hour. When your backside is in a real jam and you need some expert legal help do you want a $150 an hour wannabe lawyer or a real attorney that thats worth every penny of his fee?
When you want the apex of anything, whether its a custom rifle crafted by highly skilled and experienced hands, or a handmade mahogany runabout boat or the custom built home of your dreams, unless you can do it better yourself, your best bet is to tell them exactly what you want, and unless they have a question for you, or there is a problem, then keep your mouth shut, write the checks and let the experts do their work.
JME

Pardon me Sir, do you have any Grey Poupon?

Bauer...just a suggestion...

Why don't you take some of that pile of money you've saved being so thrifty and enroll in a top notch charm school?

"Hey, Brian, while I see no value in your product and have no interest in purchasing one, please take an hour or two out of your busy day to appease me"....The word "narcissist" comes to mind.

Muchos kudos to Brian for being a gentleman, and, for a well-crafted response.

Priceless ROTFLMFAO

Brian Bingham,

Your responses are as classy as anything I have ever seen here.

Al

Here is one that was up for resale at one time:


http://www.gunsinternational.com/D-...16-Remington-magnum.cfm?gun_id=100113296

Same as John Burns rifles. No one is making anyone purchase anything. Seems like Echols is upfront with what he does and since he is still making rifles there seems to be enough customers who agree with his price.

There will always be items that we buy that could be replaced with something less expensive. There is nothing wrong with pride of ownership and appreciation of the craftsmanship that goes into the more expensive product.

There will always be those who only purchase something based on look at what I have, and there will always be those who pony up for the same item because they have a true appreciation of the extras that go into making something the best it can be.

Addition: I have a good machinist/rifle nut friend who I'm sure if he could afford a Legend would buy one based solely on his awareness and knowledge of the skill and workmanship that went into the final product.

Those Mountain Men of the past according to passed down history payed additional pelts to buy a Hawken. Why? It was the best to be had at the time.

Did quite a bit of work over the years, for a doctor that once lived in this area. He lived in a house he had built when he came here, that sold for roughly $1.2 million when he eventually moved out of state.

Also owned a Ferrari, Pantera and several other pricey vehicles while he lived here. All in all, a peach of a feller to work for and pretty down to earth, despite his income and niche in society.

Asked him once why he wanted a Ferrari, when his daily drivers were mostly a 'Vette or his new Toyota Land Cruiser. He answered that he'd always wanted one, could afford it and liked driving something now and then, that not everyone else would be driving.

Seemed like a fair enough reason to me? Same for anyone that can afford a pricey rifle and wants one. It's between them and the rifle builder, doesn't appear to be any of my bidness? Nor does it cause me any envy, either.

Yes,but did the good doctor own him a 82 trick M70?

There are plenty of Doc's who do, and, as per your request, we named quite a few guides and PH's as well. There are also ranchers and farmers and lawyers. It's their money to spend as they see fit.

Bauer,

Do you actually think that you're going to talk potential Legend customers out of ordering one?

Or do you just like to reread your own rants?

Some people simply don't understand the vaulue of time. What a Legend owner doing is trading his money for the time of highly skilled craftsmen. Instead of the rifle owner having to dink around with zeroing a scope, working up loads, and making sure the rifle functions flawlessly with his ammo, all that has already been done for him.

Many professionals spare time is very scarce, and if you put a dollar amount on it, would be easily over $1000 a day, I'd say it commands a premium, because it is so scarce. So the savings of not having to spend his precious free time dinking with a rifle, and having confidence that during a potentially very expensive hunt the rifle will be flawless is well worth the money.

I've yet to have a factory rifle that was anywhere near mechanical perfection. Yes, quite accurate and reasonably reliable, but not perfect, and alot of my time going into setting the rifle up. If I didn't enjoy dinking with rifles and spending time at the range, there is no question I'd in the waiting line for a legend.

It's hardly unreasonable for a top quality item to be priced 10 times that of a mass produced item. If anything I'd say given the time put into assebling a legend, they are underpriced. Also in a down economy it's telling that they are still running over a year backlog.

To answer your question JB,NO.I could care less about talking anyone out of buying a legend. It's simply too much fun to watch people on a forum try to justify the purchase of a $14k M70,which you and I both know is over priced.

The guy buying a legend does so as a symbol of economic status.And in most cases it's a counterfeit example of status,such as allen. You aren't going to see a self made millionaire buying one of these.You're going to see a guy who wants to be able to hang out with the rich and fit in buying a legend.

so be it! but people with economic status keeps me probably you and a lot of other people employed.


gene

You're making the assumption that they actually do all of things they list. One could only imagine how many steps it would take D'arcy to properly sharpen a pencil.Of course you'd be charged in accordance with his expertise.

Bauer, your village beckons.

It's ok STane,you can keep saving up to buy a legend,I won't think any less of you.

Bauer,I'd like to ask you something,
When you walk into a grocery store, fill your cart with groceries and then go up to the cash register, do you tell them what you are going to pay? and what do you think the store manager is going to tell you after you did?
Think about it.

Is it worth $14K? To me it is not but then again a lot of people don't believe that a Randall Knife is worth the money they charge when a $30 Buck Knife will do the job just as well yet I have 3 Randalls. Heck I just spent $1300 on a custom ice auger when the most expensive factory auger goes for about $500, is it worth $1300? To 99.9% of the ice fishermen out there it is not but it is to me. Same thing for these rifles.

So the question beckons who the hell are you to tell people what something is worth or how they should spend their money? Obviously enough people believe that they are worth $14k that there is a long wait for them.

I spit my coffee laughing at this. This is definitely true!

This guy probably summed it up best for me. In my younger years I never thought for a second when I bought a Submariner, Porsche's, custom knives, semi custom rifles and other expensive toys. If D'Arcy's rifle is the best, that's likely all I've would have needed to hear when I was seeking the best of something to buy.

This may have been said already but expensive fine guns are like a lot of other fine things. At some point small gains start costing a LOT more. Premium cars and optics being two good examples. Is a 60k Mercedes sedan that much better than a 25k Ford? Well, it is if you can afford it and want the finest.

Bauer, do you feel the same way about all premium goods? Just wondering. It would explain if it's an overall attitude or if you're just picking on Echols.

Just because something qualifies as a "premium good"doesn't mean the price tag has to be artificially inflated.

The legend M70 is an example of an inflated price being attached to a rifle thats components and quality assembly can readily be had for a fraction of D'arcy's asking price.

In inflating the price of the rifle D'arcy has now catered to a small segment of the wealthy and wannabe wealthy who are ignorant enough to believe that paying $14k some how means that the Legend is above and beyond the quality and performance of other custom M70's using the same components and proper assembly.

All D'arcy has effectively done is lower the demand for his rifle through increasing the price. Increased his profit margin on the 10 or so rifles he actually builds in a year and keep his overhead lower by not needing more then one additional smith. Drop the legend down to 4 grand where it belongs and see what happens.

Tell Lee24 we said hi..

You argue like a liberal.

Well you really didn't answer my question. I'll ask specifically.

Do you feel Mercedes cars and Leica optics are over priced too?

Would you buy one at four thousand dollars? Would you build us one for four thousand?


Jim

Mercedes cars are largely over priced when you look at their actual durability in comparison to other cars.BMW is worse.

It's nothing less then amazing how the price on glass drops when the latest flavor of the month lens coating arrives.The difference is leica doesn't hose you as bad as a Legend rifle does. I own Leica glass that was bought right.

Actually I'd buy a used one for two grand or less.

As far as fit, finish ride quality and ergonomics, there is no comparison between the Mercedes and domestic sedans, but I don't have to guess to make that assessment.

Anyone who has actually worked on firearms and with machine tools also knows that craftsmanship at the highest level is not merely screwing together parts, and not everyone is capable of let level of craftsmanship. There is a difference between a mechanic and a machinist.

Yes,it's always important to have the quality of your seats and dash exceed the durability and quality of your drive train.

Of course D'arcy has set the standard of machinists by pricing his rifle at $14k.

175,000 miles, drivetrain is flawless.

You've made it clear you have no clue of what you speak, but go ahead and keep reinforcing that.

Flawless after how many replaced parts?

None

Bauer,

So you call my friend a douche, ask questions which, frankly are none of your business then when Brian is gracious enough to answer them you call them liars. Life is too short to live so miserably. There's got to be a D'Arcyism to describe this.

Don't ever sell it,you've got a one in a million.You might even want to contact benz and see if their engineers would like to inspect the car to see how it differs from the other ones they've built.

Ralphie just because you're dumb enough to believe they actually do that many processes to a M70 action doesn't mean everyone else is drinking the kool aid also.

Classless a$$ hole!!

Hi Bauer,

If you ever are down our way, feel free to stop by the shop and hang out for awhile. We'd be glad to show you what we do.

Cheers,

Brian

Thanks Brian.

That's Class !!!!

Mr Bingham is amazing.

This Bauer douchebag call him and the firm he works for liars and charlatans and Mr. Bingham still responds in a classy manner.

Ralphie--

Take a step away from the keyboard.

Brians simply smarter then you are,which ain't saying much.

The structure and the spelling of your post here shows just how smart you aren't.

TFF

I think that the end result of this thread is that there are a lot more of us who want to do business with D'Arcy Echols.

A safari is an expensive proposition and it is really something to think about that many times buying the best can provide the user with a safety margin that is worth many times the said items monetary value.

$14,000 is a bargain compared to $200,000 of medical damages or the loss of your life( unless you are a cat you only got one of those.)

Brian, I really truly thank you and can only hope that after I get my kid through college that I can get on your list make a deposit and get one your fine rifles.

Sincerely,
Thomas

All this talk is getting to me. Hello D'Arcy, I need a 270 with the aluminium alloy rings and bottom metal and, oh yes, how about a second barrel in 9.3x62.

Sir,

You are forgetting something. I used to work there. I've seen exactly what goes into them and even had a small hand in the work.

By all means fill us in on how spending $14k on a M70 is now life insurance.

You really aren't very bright are you Bauer?

I can't edit your posts and your ineptitude with the English language is still readily apparent.

Unlike you Bauer, I have spent my life in Alaska except the four years in Cambridge, MA at Harvard. I have shot three different Grizzlies. Two where in Defense of Life and Property-in coming. I have hunted in the nastiest possible stuff for weeks at a time and I have had equipment fail at the worst possible time.

The gun that I use the most is a PF Model 70 XTR that has been worked over by Red from Red's Gunsmithing in Chickaloon. It is Skim bedded with an old 4X Leupold Alaskan with a lyman target dot. It loads four in the mag and one in the pipe and that action works fast without ever failing me. I have used that rifle in 300 Winchester Mag to kill two different grizzlies and I also shot another problem black bear that was intent on killing the school secretary's kids in Nulato.

I have many different rifles. Coopers, Weatherbys, Remingtons, Mausers, other newer winchesters. Some might be more accurate. However, that winchester, even if it is a push feed gun, has been completely reliable for me in every problem situation that I have been involved in.

If I am in a foreign land where there are all kinds of things that can kill you from mambas, to poachers to all nature of things that can bite and stomp, then I am going to want a gun that I can rely upon every single time. I want a gun that can take a hot charge. I want a gun that points well and is accurate but more importantly it is bombproof and idiot proof.
I never let people touch my guns much. However, stuff happens and a gun that is designed, planned and machined to be a work of art is a much better choice or selection for me than some bass boat or some monster truck. I would rather spend money on the very best if I decide to make that track to a place that people can die: with a weapon that I can entirely trust.

A Legend is a functional work of art.

Bauer. I am in the kid business and strive to be positive with everybody that I work with. However, not only has the vast majority of forum members come against your view but several of the best contemporary professional rifle loonies of the highest order have flat stated that you are full of beans.

Just give it up..

Sincerely,
Thomas

Which is why you edited your own after the fact.

Wow. Evidently you can attend harvard and still be stupid. What were you part of a quota?

You got about as much chance at fighting poachers,mambas and [bleep] space aliens as you do at winning the Power Ball.None of which has anything to do with paying $14k for a M70.

Pedophiles are in the kid business also,are you one of them to?

Be careful. You pretty much have ticked off every rich attorney on this forum. This thread will be published on the WWW. It would be dreadful if I actually sought to find representation to seek legal action against you for libel.

Think about it. I really haven't said anything against you.
You could find yourself in trouble quite easily.

I have a very thick skin.

BTW 2X Alaska State Champ in Wrestling, benched over 400lbs in high school and 10pts from having perfects on my SATS. I was ranked first in my class of five. I was accepted by 10 out of the 11 colleges that I applied to. I had read all 742 books in the Kenny Lake library and Harvard had over 13 million volumes.
Harvard started later than any other college in the country and this gave me the entire moose and sheep season. Harvard also had a hot Elizabeth Shue who I dated until she figured out I wasn't rich. Mira Sorvino was there too.
I had John Rawls in Government, Bob Nozick for philosophy, Stephen J. Gould and EO Wilson in Biological Sciences. They had the best facilities in the world. I graduated with honors in general studies with a degree in history and anthropology and returned back to the Bush where I married my high school sweetheart. I haven't been back since. Its kind of like a Legend. You wouldn't turn it away if it was offered to you. I could recognize quality for what it was. Now I did get into trouble for getting snowed in on a moose hunt; and if you go into the Dean of the College's office you will find a 60" moose that I brought back as proof that I wasn't off boozing it up on St. Croix.

There is no other job where I can fish and hunt for long stretches of time and still get paid well. I am not rich.

What is the relevance of this bio to an Echols rifle????

You are from Oz. You wouldn't understand.
Bauer is trying to connect me or associate me with the Priss-who I kicked out of my dorm room and knocked down in a basketball game.


I am sorry about any dilution that I may have made to this thread.

Thomas

Once again your grasp of the English language is found to be wanting.

I decided a month ago to stop arguing with retards on the internet but your utter idiocy and arrogance made me violate that decision.

It won't happen again.

Exactly!!! It obviously wouldn't have mattered what Brian said, and Bauer really wasn't interested in the answer anyway, as evidenced by the fact he then insinuated Brian was lying. He just wanted to waste the man's time to make himself feel better.

Classless. There's no other way to describe it.

Bauer...

I personally don't think any synthetic stocked rifle is worth $14K no matter what amount of time goes into its creation, so I'm not likely to ever buy a Legend. That doesn't mean I don't think they're getting a fair return on their shop time and skills, because I'm not in a position to make that determination. Unless you've seen their operation and done the cost accounting, neither are you. You don't think the Legend is worth the asking price? Great; don't buy one! Beyond that, you have no clue what time and overhead they have in the rifle, so you have no basis for telling anyone what their asking price should be in order to make a decent return on their time and cost.

All of my professional career has been in manufacturing, and I can tell you that any product requiring extensive machining will cost many times the cost of the materials that go into it. The machine burden rate at the facility where I work is $200 / hour. Time is money and skilled labor isn't cheap. I don't begrudge anyone getting a fair return on their time and expertise. I certainly would never call into question another man's integrity when I don't even know anything about what they do. It's not my place to tell anyone what something is worth or how they should spend their money. "Value" is totally subjective. The free market has a way of sorting out what any given product is "worth."

I think everyone is thoroughly aware of your opinion of Echols' rifles, so I don't know what you feel you're accomplishing at this point (or even 10 pages ago). I don't understand your need to resort to childish name calling and insults toward those who see value in something just because you don't. What you are succeeding in doing in spades is damaging whatever semblance of character you may have once had to the point it will take way more than "82 trick moves" to repair.

Again:


DFTFT

he's a troll. pure and simple. look at his other posts. he brings nothing to the board but crap.

Seems to me if you don't want to spend 14K on one of D'Arcy's rifles, DON'T BUY ONE. To some I know, 14K is pocket change... to most of us, it's far from that. Others are somewhere in the middle.

What I do know is don't judge the price of something based on your own economic situation... that's just dumb.

I can't afford a G5 but that doesn't mean I don't think they're worth the price

Echol's rifles may be pricey, but they are meticulously built for flawless feeding and function. If you want a rifle with "no stone unturned" the Echols rifle is for you. If that level of attention to detail makes you yawn, move on... "there's nothing for you to see here."

Sorta like a McHale pack, huh?

Not even remotely... I'll pay whatever it takes for the best pack for my body... McHale ain't even in the ballpark.

My Dana Arcflex Alpine fits me like it was made for me. Unfortunatly the padding in the small of the back turned to dust. Brad, any idea who might sell me a piece of "backpack grade" padding of that sort? This is the stuff under the Cordura. If memory serves it was a soft, tacky plastic foam like vinyl or urethane can be.

I tried PM'ing Dana here on the Fire but he's no longer with Dana Design and didn't answer back...

I played a $40,000 guitar yesterday. Can't see the problem with a $14k rifle. Things are worth what people will pay for them. What's a house worth? I rest my case.

You talking about the little "grippy" patch on the lumbar?

Aside, here's something I wrote about Echol's Rifle's some years ago on AR and which someone reminded me of... I think it's still just as true:

Are Mr. Echol's rifle's worth the money? Yes.

Is that level of craftsmanship and perfectionism needed to have a reliable hunting rifle? No.

Bottom line... when you buy an Echol's rifle you're buying a master craftsman's uncompromising vision of what a rifle should be. That vision requires many more hours of labor than an "average custom" rifle and, while I don't believe much of it is necessary, it is ultimately for those that cannot live without every stone perfectly turned over, every possible imperfection corrected and every pitfall anticipated and overcome. An Echols comes down to a multitude of details agonized over by a highly skilled and focused perfectionist.

I hate to disrupt this, uhh "discussion", but, one thing that someone wanting a Legend might consider is having D'Arcy make one rifle with two barrels. I know of several instances where he has made, say, a .300 H&H with a second .375 H&H barrel. You use the .300 for all of your general hunting and have him swap in the .375 barrel for your occasional trip to Africa.

You could have a 7mm Rem Mag or 7mm STW barrel for blasting whitetails out of the ol' beanfield, and a .338 Win Mag or .340 Wby barrel for when you find yourself hunting elk, moose, brown bear or large plainsgame.

As long as the cases are compatible (you wouldn't mix a .300 H&H with a .416 Rem Mag due to dimensional differences) you can get a lot of use out of one best quality rifle.

Chet

No one buys an Echols for that reason. For starters only the real keen gun enthusiast has even heard of an Echols Legend. Of the few people who have heard of them only a fraction of those people know what they cost.

For the status symbol the rifle at the very least needs flash wood. Next, it needs to be "factory" and can be a bolt gun form H&H or giving Wby a blank cheque but no way is it done via an Echols Legend. A gun from Wby or H&H looks like it cost a lot of money but an Echols to the average person just looks like a plastic stocked M70.

For your own sake I hope you are just troll because if not your gun knowledge is seriously lacking.

Sweet, I'm part of the elite that knows what an Echols Legend is. Hell, I even know how much they cost!

Actually, I can afford an Echols Legend--if I sell off maybe 10-12 of the hunting rifles I have now. And I might just do that sometime soon, or at least get on the waiting list, since I'm growing a little weary of having so many rifles. It certainly would solve the space problem in the safe!

I have been to the shop and KNOW exactly how they make them (sorry, Bauer, all the stuff Brian listed is actually done to each and every Legend), and have also hunted with a loaned Legend belonging to one of their customers. They're simply the all-around best-functioning rifles I've ever shot, and I've shot quite a few rifles.

A two-barrel Legend would cover about anything. Maybe a .338 Winchester/.257 Weatherby?

Do the Legends come with an accuracy guarantee???

The price tag.

No way they let a shotgun go out of the shop at 14,000 dollars.

I am reminded of this:

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.

Customer: Go on, I'm listening.

Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.

Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?

Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?

Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.

Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of [bleep]. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

Customer: Okay, I'll buy from you.

Thats not a given.

I know somebody who won a rifle from a famous British rifle maker. I'm not going to drop names, but the guys builds top end "classical" DG rifles on various Mauser actions. These are blued and walnut rifles that are breath taking to look at..

Anyway, the chap I know had one of these rifles in 7x57mm as a classic old school stalking rifle, but no matter what he tried, it would only shoot 1 1/2" to 2" groups. When he spoke to the maker, he said that was fine and what more did he need to shoot deer out to 200yards?




Just BS by somebody not wanting to back up their product up with a written guarentee..

Reason I asked about the Legend is that other builders out there will gaurentee their rifles will be capable of shooting "X" size groups and generally the smaller the group, the more expensive the rifle.

I believe that accuracy guarantees are more a marketing ploy than reality. After all, there are so many variables in the client's shooting that the gunsmith cannot control. With a Legend, I am pretty confident that if a client has an accuracy complaint, the gun get shipped back. If the problem is the gun, it gets fixed. If it is the client, he gets told.

Legends are accuracy tested with a variety of quality factory ammo before they leave Echol's hands. I remember one of Echol's employees posting about testing them at the range with some pics of the ammo brands - it might have been Brian but I could be wrong. If the rifle does not meet Echol's accuracy requirements, it does not leave the shop until it does.

MtnHtr

How can they be a "ploy"?

If it's a guarantee that is TRULY backed by the maker, it's worth it. Especially in the case of most top end customs,they have ALREADY eliminated a lot of variables by working up loads and shooting the gun enough to know it does not have a bad barrel.

When you have guys like Kenny Jarret who will rebarrel a rifle to get it to shoot(or cut the damn thing up into pieces if it's truly cursed) then you have a worthwhile guarantee.

When you have companies selling factory made rifles like Sako/Tikka making such claims, given Beretta's spotty customer service record, then maybe not so much.

Let's say I sold a bunch of stuff I no longer use much and buy a Legend. Do my time and eventually the phone call comes that it is finished.

According to Bauer, with greedy, snobbish, elitist, pretentious hands, I go to the range. Being careful not to get close to those unfortunates shooting run of the mill rifles, while at the same time showing off my air of superiority just enough to let them know I'm something special, I find out it will not shoot .5s all day long with core-lockts even if I do my part. (Swampy, that was classic.) Heaven forbid with some combos it will only do .6 or just at an inch. What will I do? What will I do? Swamp just nailed another .5 Core-lockt, while I could only do a .7. Tail tucked between my legs I sneak away when no one is looking.

Addition: There is accurate, really accurate and scary accurate. They all may exist in the same rifle depending on the components, shooter and conditions. I'm thinking if you have a consistent 2in Legend, it will be corrected.

I have seen the groups from John55's Echol's rifles and they shoot and like a pure accuracy rifle in the sense that groups are tops even with loads that are not the best for the rifle.

To be fair, their are many smiths who will put a rifle together accuracy wise that will do the same.

It seems from the comments of those with hands on experience, that when one buys a legend there is more than accuracy factored into the final product. And yes pride/appreciation of having something made to the highest standards is one of them.

Not sure I for one would appreciate all the unseen extras or find them something I can't live without. Who knows? I've yet to see one outside of a pic.

Addition: In relation to a previous thread of how Ak can be hard on a rifle to the extreme, the same would apply to a Legend. It may keep going when others go down, but damage may still result. Then one has to factor in the cost of returning it to the previous level of function if that is important.

Often with expensive nice things one also has to be willing to accept increased cost of maintenance. Crack a stock on an 870 and the fix is not all that expensive. Do the same on a Perazzi and the bite requires more stitches.

I'm sure Echols rifles shoot, but I'm thinking after reading all this that it's not his first concern and probably not his customer's either. Any rifle from a reputable maker will shoot small groups and if it didn't they would correct it.

Pete,

It's a line from the movie Tommy Boy with Chris Farley. Classic movie...

Bauer,

I walk dogs every morning with a self made millionaire. I will ask them in the morning if they keep your number on speed dial to seek your advice on how to spend their wealth.

...they have talking dogs....?

One of the perks of being a millionaire..............(laffin)

I'd go with a 264 Win on the bottom end. That way you'd have a Westerner and an Alaskan all in one rifle...

That is the honest truth. I have never had anyone recognize one of my Legends as being anything out of the ordinary in over 12 years of hunting with them.

A couple of years ago, I was hunting mountain caribou in the Yukon. I shared a camp with with a Urologist from Minnesota that carried a .300 WSM built by Rifles Inc like it was his personal talisman. I am pretty sure he even took it with him to the outhouse. I listened for hours about the prowess of his rifle, and how it was ballistically superior to the .300 Wby Mag (Legend) I was using. Finally, on the last night in camp, as we cleaned our rifles on the cabin table after getting rained on all day, he took one of his business cards from his wallet and told me if I wanted to upgrade from my "Black Shadow" after the hunt, to call him as he would sell me his rifle and order another from Rifles Inc.

I took the card and told him I would give him a call if I decided to "trade up".

Chet

That would be a really nice combination. Not much you couldn't hunt with a that duo.

Chet

Now that's funny right there. I've ran into several of those types over the years and it's funny to screw with them.

MD, I sold a bunch of unfinished projects to fund my Legend. At one time I had 26 actions, Pre 64's, high grade Mausers (G33/40's BRNO M21, ZG47's etc.) I had five or six high grade real french walnut blanks and 10 or so scopes and on and on and on.... The Legend is so good that there is nothing else I want.

I am no longer a member of the "build of the month" club. D'Arcy said he will build a two barrel 270 Win & 9.3x62. I know how you like the 7x57 and 30-06 and the 9.3x62. It is nice to be done with all the "pondering". It is really nice to become very familiar with one rifle and fewer cartridges.

Since getting mine I have actually spent less money. I have three scopes. There is room in the safe for all the millions which I have earned HA!

You can't trust talkin' dogs. Some of them have been known to lie about having served with the CIA.

I would rank them with folks like our own "Borer" here, as they likely won't make for good companions. ;O)

RinB,

Another good Legend combo would be the 9.3x62 and .270. Damn, now I'm REALLY thinking about it.

So have you finally sold all the pre-'64 actions?

Gonna be at SCI? Eileen and I will be.

I'm just thrilled that there aren't 413 videos of him on the fire shooting dink brown bear from 674 yards.

Guessing good [bleep] sells itself.

I like the 7mm Rem Mag and .338 Win Mag combo myself. You can hunt everything from antelope to brown bear and find ammo in almost any well stocked gas station from Santa Fe to Whitehorse.

If that is too easy, D'Arcy may be willing to make a combo in 7mm Mashburn and .334 OKH.

Chet

You guys best get on the waiting list. Sounds like Bauer may be one his best salesman. Funny how some things workout.

Maybe I should call the orthodontist tomorrow to cancel my youngest' braces and get on line for one of these Legends !!!!

MD,
Echols says he can build a 270 Win & 9.3x62 two barrel. I talked to him about it two days ago. With the 7075 bottom metal and mounts it will "make weight" and will do everything that I need. I can't think of a better general purpose rifle. Fewer rifles and cartridges means more familiarity. Just as with great friends, more time and shared experiences creates lasting and vivid memories.

I have gotten the excess down to a couple of G33/40 actions ( these have been rebuilt by Burgess and Blackburn), a pre 64 Fwt 30-06, and a couple of the old SAKO 223 actions. These are going to fund the second Legend.

Captian Video should take a Charm School lesson from the boys at Echol's and Co. too..

Pardon my ignorance, but how is this "switch barrel" setup on the Legend? Is the owner able make the change?

Heeheehee!

Bauer? Bauer? Anyone?

Bob,

Yeah, I remember a day a few years ago when Rick said all his 70 and 98 actions were going out the door....

JB: Yeah....then I turn around and he's got this....and that.....and somethin' else and I say to him.."I thought you got rid of that stuff?!"......and he says "well I did get rid of that stuff....but I had more!"

For him the Echols is a VERY good idea! which is what I told him!

I also remember when he was going to do ALL his big game hunting with a Remington 700 Ti in .270 Winchester. That was after he supposedly sent all his 98's and 70's out the door.

Rick, you're a RIFLE LOONY!

JB: That's for sure!

Rick has had more Blackburn, Burgess,and Waldron metal than.........Blackburn, Burgess and Waldron!

JB & Bob,
OK, OK I am a rifle slut. I have been one for 50 years! It is just that now I have fewer but they better be perfect and sadly, I know the difference.

No, a gunsmith has to switch the barrels, unless you happen to have a barrel vise. It is not something you do several times a year.

It is best suited for the person that will use one barrel most of the time and only needs the second barrel once in a while.

Chet

I would think that would get old after a while and you'd just start asking yourself why you didn't buy two complete rifles.

- Tom

Jarrett used to give you a tool if you ordered a switch barrel. You could do it at home. Screw one off and screw the other on. You could do it everyday if you were so inclined.

Perhaps Brian will chime in on whether Echol's does the same. I'd be guessing, but if I had to bet, I would think you can do it at home.

JB, et al....

Do the .270 Win and the 9.3x62 have different bolt face sizes? So wouldn't two different bolts be needed? Also, would both cartridges feed reliably from the same magazine?

tjm,

Depends on what you want. I have a couple-three of my rifles set up to take two barrels, and have a barrel-vise set-up in my shop to do the job. The switch doesn't happen as often as you might imagine, and once you get used to doing it doesn't take all that long. The two rifles are a commercial FN Mauser with both .338 and .458 Winchester magnum barrels, and a Remington 700 with 7mm SAUM and 9.3 B-S barrels. (The 9.3 is my own wildcat, the .350 Remington Magnum necked up.)

If I did a Legend with two barrels, one of them would definitely be in some sort of "deer" caliber, because I long ago realized that most of my hunting is for game weighing around 500 pounds or less, whether in North America or elsewhere. This is easily handled by some cartridge from .25 to 7mm in caliber. So the rifle would definitely have this barrel screwed in most of the time.

The bigger-bore barrel would only be screwed in for the relatively few times I hunt something that really deserves a .33 or 9.3 or whatever. And of course a .338 or 9.3x62 will also take any smaller animals that happen to get in the way as well!

The .338 barrel on my FN has taken a number of 500+ pound big game animals from Alaska to Africa, but the .458 barrel is a recent acquisition that hasn't taken anything--yet. The 7mm SAUM barrel on the 700 has taken a number of deer, pigs and caribou, while the 9.3 barrel has mostly taken bears so far.

idahoguy,

The .270 Win. and 9.3x62 have the same size bolt-face. The 9.3x62 is essentially a .36-06, though the body dimensions vary in small ways.

JB, Thanks for that info

Or you could get one in which ever .300 floats your boat feed it 200 NPs and go kill anything short of cape buffalo. That was my idea anyway.

David Miller has just announced his new M70 Classic with synthetic stock...$32,000. Pressure is off Echols. It has one of those damned muzzle brakes.

I was wondering when someone was going to mention David Miller. That ought a get ole Bauer really vapor locked.

I think he has slinked away from the thread. finally.

Made post re Bauer and then deleted it. My mother always said if you can't say something nice then....

Maybe the muzzle brake on the Miller rifle costs $18,000.

But was it built in 82 different steps?

Depends on the number of holes.

Yeah, but the Miller rifle is worth the cost.

Holey Expletive deleted!!! They sure are proud of their wares. Bear

Good point....

No one has done the math yet, so I guess I will. Someone from the company in question has stated that they may build up to 14 rifles in a year. At $14,000.00 each, this comes to a whopping $196,000.00. Subtract overhead, including three peoples wages, equipment, and materials, and tell me if anyone is getting rich?

R.

The only thing you can conclude from that math, is that producing Legends isn't the only thing that goes on in their shop (I hope)

I think this whole thread was staged by John Burns to see if the fire would try to set the price for other rifle makers.

Kidding (kind of)....

Rman,

The $14,000 price includes the 11% federal excise tax on new firearms, so what the Echols company actually receives for each Legend is around $12,500.

For those interested, my wife just finished up D'Arcy's web site. www.echolsrifles.com

The site looks great, well done.

I'll let her know you liked it!

Great looking site, congrats to both your wife and D'Arcy and crew.

Very nice!

Yes it's a nicely done site... makes me think of friend Allen Day... he'd have liked it.

Yep, same here! Great looking site.

Thanks. It was through Allen that we met D'Arcy.

Web site looks good, forgot the "go Bobcats" logo on it though...

Dober

Mark

I should have worn my "Guck the Friz" shirt in my bio pic.

Brian

Ha!

And the price is up to $15,500...

And to think, when it was at $14,000 I could have had a Legend AND a Kimber Montana...

Yeah, and then you'd have a rifle and a paperweight

Great work Lisa!

Jeani and I just flew home from Shot Show in Vegas tonight. We used Alaska Airlines and they offer WiFi for $10.00, and it worked great. Surfing 24hr CF on an I-Pad on an airplane, who ever thought?

Allen would have enjoyed the web site, and would have had written witty post about it.

Very classy website

Guys:

It ain't just rifles. You can pick up an Alvarez, or Fender, or a Yamaha, etc., acoustic guitar for $300 or less at the local music store.

Here's the price on a new Martin guitar:
http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=h&m=D-18%20Authentic%201937

Think that's high, here's one introduced just this year:
http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=h&m=D-45%20Authentic%201942

And in case you wanted to add some bling:
http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?p=z&g=h&m=D-100%20Deluxe

Just for reference, the first one is what Eric Clapton plays. How much better can the latter two be? And yet, they sell out.

ANd don't even think about vintage pre-war Martins. How about a quarter-million? For a USED GUITAR!

It's Capitalism, baby. And more power to them, I say. Made in America too!

Consider the alternative.

Well put!

Wow! Rifles are cheap!Even Millers!

Hey, I am famous. I am the guy on the "Trophies" page with the Dall sheep.

Chet

Or maybe 82 ways to Guck the Friz...

I'll be calling you later Brian, have a super day!

Dober

Well said.

Now if only Eric Clapton could actually play as well as the uninitiated think he does... the most overrated guitarist on the planet.

Stevie Ray...............

Larry Carlton and Lee Rittenour baby...

Dober

Stevie Ray was hot chit... until he quit drinking. Saw him both pre and post. Pre was WAY better.

He had it all. Serious technique, monster tone, and just bursting with soul...

As to spendy git-fiddles... I've played a dozen or so guitars "worth" well up into the six figures and gosh, maybe a hundred worth in the 10's of thousands. With very few exceptions the value there is mostly speculative (collectors...)...

Then again, with guitars there's significant subjectivity there. Does it sound great? Dunno! Who can say? There's not an empiracal measurement like "it shoots .35" groups at 100 yards"...

Hendrix.

It begins and ends there.

No fair.....

I'll wager that there are fewer Legend rifles on the planet than there are bejewel guitars.

As my granpa used to say"ain't America a grand land!"
I can buy a David Miller,Echols or for that matter a Ferrari.Strictly my choice.

Hell I can even throw my left over mashed potatoes in the garbage.

My Yamaha LL16L is probably better than my abilities.

Lisa says thanks for the kind words and say hi to Jeani for both of us!

We did the Alaska flight to/from Vegas over Thanksgiving. The Wifi on there is pretty slick.

D�Arcy sent me a nice email the other day concerning this thread and wanted to thank all involved in the discussion and wished everyone a nice day.

Seems he is happy building a few less rifles per year than Winchester and putting a little more time into each one that leaves his shop. Seem like a strange business plan but if he is happy what the heck.

Do you guys think there is anyone out there actually willing to pay a little more money to have a little better rifle?

Sure hope so.

Did you learn anything from this thread ?

Who Me??

Sorry to resurrect the thread but this shouldn't be true. Generally you must supply the actions for 50 builds a year to meet the threshold to pay the FET on firearms. Smaller shops don't get caught up in it.

Huh?

Ryan,

You're right. D'Arcy was paying excise tax on Legends in 2001 when I first visited his shop, but the 2005 change in the law to 50 rifles changed that.

Wow. Glad that got cleared up.

For all you guys who appreciated the fiberglass kits that made VW Beetles look like Rolls Royces ,
I just learned that D'Arcy now has one of his Legend pattern stocks made up for the RH BDL Remington 700 on it's way to McMillan to have a mold made. It will have the same shadow line cheek piece, cast off at the toe and heel, high scope comb, checkered, etc. as the Model 70 Legend stock but is made specifically for the grip geometry of the 700. Hopefully the mold should be done 4 months

Long action, I suppose?

either/both I bet, but I want my Beetles to look like Beetles. maybe an obnoxious swirl pattern would be called for...

D'Arcy's rifles are nice. I think I'd pay about $9,500 for it in terms of actual 'value' but the market says $14,500. These are great rifles, no doubt about it.

Glad you cleared that up. Couldn't sleep not knowing what you would pay for one. It's been haunting me for the last 5 years.

People who are not millionaires have planned and managed their money to be able to order
that new $150,000+ Purdey SxS shotgun they always wanted
So someone certainly doesn't need to be a millionaire for a $15,000 Echols.

They're awesome. Anyone have any pics to share in the field with one?

I have had guided numerous clients using Echol's and Forbes rifles and will simply say I have never seen an Echol's bolt handle come off. Twice !

Wow! Congratulations. What chambering and load do you use? Would you change anything?

Thanks for sharing.

Beautiful animals. Congrats on them all.

That rifle looks great in the field!

It is a 300 win mag. 200 partitions. I don't think I'd change anything.

The 200 Partitions from almost any .30 caliber work great. Have you chronographed yours? I get 2700 fps from my 30-06, which works fantastic, but see in the new Rifle magazine that Mule Deer gets over 3100fps with his 300 Wby.

It would be a little more difficult to do at the going rate of a Legend these days. How many people spend over 25% of their income on a hunting rifle, much less five of them.

458 Win, would you use this load on Brown Bear as a trophy Hunter? Nosler's reloading manual lists IMR 4831 at 71gr pushing 2972fps wiht 200 gr. Partitions in the .300 Win Mag.


Or would you pack a 416 Rem. Mag with 350 gr. bullets if that's what your next largest rifle's cartridge was?

Ralphie's rifle looks great.

Yes, curious also as to what actual load or velocity you're getting.

If I had to pick a single rifle for the bulk of North American BG, it would be like Ralphies rifle in 300 Win Mag. I'd have DArcy or Gene Simillion build it and wouldn't blink at the cost of either one.A Simillion is very similar to a Legend.

I've blown more than the cost of either screwing around with lesser stuff.My Simillion 7mm Mashburn is the best I've owned,and was built so that it could be a 300 Win Mag if I ever get unhappy with the Mashburn. All it takes is a new barrel.

Both are "lifetime" rifles.

The Myth !!!

For decades the 30-06 was the single most popular rifle carried by guides in Alaska and the current world record bear was taken with one. I even used my Lon Paul 30-06 to take this bear after a client had wounded it. I have posted this photo many times but it shows the size of critter we are talking about. And the largest bodied bear any of my clients have taken was more than 300 pounds heavier than this bear and was taken with a single shot from a 300 WM and 180 gr Partitions.



I would prefer to see a client show up with a 30-06 or 300 loaded with 200 Partitions than with a 416 simply because most folks, if they are honest with themselves, shoot a 30 caliber better than a 416.
But if given a choice between a .300 with Partitions and a 416 for sorting out a wounded bear I would feel better with the 416.

Ha! Yeah...."myth". i don't think so.

Maybe it'll never happen, but I do look forward to the day to being able to have Gene or Echols build me that "one" awesome rifle.

I'm loading 70.5 grains of H4831. I have never chronographed that load in my rifle. Win brass and fed primer.

We did in several other Legends. A wag is somewhere around 2900 fps. Mine has a 25" barrel. That is a wag but I doubt there would be enough difference in the actual velocity to notice.

I'm not an experimenter or extreme tinkerer with handloading. When this rifle was built I was hoping to shoot 200 partitions. They shot good and they kill good. So I have no desire to change up my hand loads either.

Ralphie

There was a post out lining some of the steps that were done to up grade a model 70 action to meet the requirements of the Legend actions.

Was this one of your post ? If so do you remember the name of the thread?

Great photos. I like the photo of the young hunter holding a Legend.

Hal

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0317/8397/files/EcholsLegend_6-5-2014-2.pdf?7163

Legend Standard Sporter

1. The heart of our Legend Rifle begins with a Winchester Model 70 action made from
either Chrome–Moly or Stainless Steel. Once inspected these actions are extensively
refined and modified.

2. The receiver threads are re-machined to 1.032 X 16 TPI. The recoil lug seats, recoil
lugs, receiver face and bolt face are re-machined and trued to remove any dimensional
run out from the factory. The recoil lugs and lug seats are then lapped to remove any
machine marks. A select grade chrome-moly or stainless steel barrel is then fit and
chambered to the action. Our chambering procedures assure that maximum accuracy
potential of the barreled action is realized. For the past 15 years the most popular
chambering’s for the Standard Legend’s have been the following: The 7mm Remington
Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum and thirdly the 300 H&H Magnum. These three
cartridges have proven time and time again their effectiveness around the world when
use for the smaller Antelopes up to and including the Elands and larger Moose species.
The international hunter is well served with these three cartridges. I keep an inventory of
these barrels in stock at all times and have these barrels contoured into specific weights
and lengths to further enhance the rifles final balance.

3. The underside of the action is re-machined to create a uniform bedding platform and
to accept a proprietary Echols & Co. heat-treated, stainless steel magazine box and
follower assembly. Our magazine assemblies are cartridge specific and allow our
magnum magazine box to hold one additional belted magnum round, giving the shooter
a total of five rounds instead of the usual four. This feature alone is almost unheard of in
any currently available factory or custom produced firearm. All of our Legends will be fit
with our Echols & Co. floor-plate and trigger bow assembly.

4. The receiver’s feed-ramp and guide rails are then modified to assure reliable cartridge
feeding. Our rifles have an established reputation for flawless reliability.

5. The ejection port is lengthened to allow easy access to magazine to permit ease in
loading. A spring steel extractor replaces the factory extractor and is properly fit to fully
utilize the advantages of the claw extractor system.

6. The trigger, ejector, and bolt stop are re-pinned to remove all undesirable looseness
or play. The sear engagement surfaces are machined to guarantee a consistent, crisp
trigger pull set at 3 lbs. The safety wing and bolt lock engagement is refined to ensure
smooth and positive manipulation of the safety. The factory sleeved bolt handle is then
pinned and soldered to the main bolt body to prevent any separation between the bolt
handle and bolt body permanently.

7. Then I install my two-piece scope mount system. This solid steel mount is available
for both 1” and 30 mm scopes, and features an integral base and lower ring halves that
are precision fit and secured to the action with 8x40 Torx head screws. This design
provides an exceptionally strong joint between the scope base and the action. The front
and rear bridges of the action are surface ground concentric to the centerline of the bolt
bore before the scope mount is installed. The ring I.D. is bored to the actual external
diameter of the scope tube, thus assuring a perfect mechanical fit with the scope. The
top half of the ring secures the scope in place with four 8x40 Torx head screws for each
ring. Done in this manner the scope tube is under no stress whatsoever. This unique
arrangement provides several important advantages:
 The scope base does not overhang the ejection port front or rear
 The scope can be mounted as close to the bore as possible
 This system eliminates the joint between the base and the ring, which can
become a significant weak link in the standard scope mount.
This is the only scope mount I have used that will prevent heavy 30 mm scopes from
sliding in the rings under severe recoil generated by such calibers as the 458 Lott. Our
scope mount system has a proven track record and is the only system we will install.
The customer should be aware that no other commercially made scope base will
fit our rifles and they cannot be replaced by any other factory scope mounts
currently on the market.

8. The Legend rifle is fitted with a synthetic stock of my own design that is the result of
over three decades of Classic rifle design and construction. It allows the shooter to
control heavy recoil and has the styling, feel and handling features of a best quality
French walnut sporter. This stock design fills a void in the current inventory of
commercially available synthetic sporter rifle stocks. McMillan Fiberglass Stocks, Inc.
manufactures our stocks exclusively for D’Arcy Echols & Co. The Legend stock is
available in both left and right hand configuration. Either version features a straight
comb (with no drop from comb to heel), contemporary style cheek piece, functional
point-style checkering pattern, open grip, and cast “on” or “off” both at the toe and heel
depending on if the rifle is made for a left or right hand shooter. A 1” red or black recoil
pad is standard. The actions are pillar bedded with 3 separate pillars and the barrels are
free floated.

Length of pull is available from 13.5 ” to 15” as a standard feature. Factory trigger guard
and floor plate screws are replaced with high quality heat-treated Allen screws.
These stocks are available in the following solid colors: Black, Sage Green and Desert
Tan. We then add an additional flecked and spider webbed overspray of a contrasting
color to compliment the base color. A Camouflage pattern is also available that is based
on a combination of Black, Sage Green and Desert Tan. Pictures that show this effect
may be viewed on our website www.echolsrifles.com.

9. All the appropriate metal is carefully hand polished, bead blasted, wire wheeled and
then caustic immersion blued. Unless other wise requested any Legend made with
stainless steel hardware will be bead blasted and left a satin silver color.

10. The rifle is test fired at the range to confirm that feed, function, accuracy,
scope viability and safety requirements are completely met. A variety of factory
ammunition is used during testing to determine which ammunition delivers the best
accuracy for that particular rifle.

This is a good chance to clear something up. There have been posts talking about 82 steps that were done on the action alone to make them into Legends. This isn't true. The 82 steps is about what it takes to take a factory M70 turn it into a Legend ready to ship out to a client. There is a lot more that goes into these than just work done on the receiver itself.

Ralphie, as I was reading through Echols' blog I noticed it mentioned a few instances where the shop sells pre-owned Legends from time to time. Any idea how often this occurs?

No I don't have a good idea. I'd call D'Arcy about it and tell him you are interested in one if it becomes available.

Ive seen them in the shop at least several times.

Thanks. My friend tried the 200 gr partitions out of his Model 70 (24" barrel) and he's getting 2870-ish FPS. You're likely right on with your load producing a little over 2900 FPS with a 25" barrel.