Thank for the interest and recent postings in Legendary Arms Works rifles. I would like to take the opportunity to respond to the posting and some of the comments related to Legendary Arms Works and to give clarification about the company.I have posted similar information on other forums because we want to ensure that the most accurate and honest information is available to our customer base.
In the spirit of full disclosure-My name is Paul Reed and I am the Chief Operating Officer for Trop Gun Shop Corporation and Legendary Arms Works. Trop Gun Shop is a retail and online firearms company and we have a manufacturing division that includes Legendary Arms Works where the 704 rifles are being built. We are the sole owners and producers of the Legendary Arms Works Model 704 bolt action rifle. A little bit of history about the company will help to clarify. The creation of Legendary Arms Works comes about through the joining of three forces in the firearms industry and is an interesting story that will help to understand the company and the people driving it.
Ed Brown created the 704 bolt action around 2002 with improvements over the next few years that led ultimately to the Model 704. He produced a small number of rifles for a time period and they were of very high quality and had excellent accuracy. The development of the 704 action was novel at the time and for anyone who knows Mr. Brown would not be surprised at his design, it is an engineering accomplishment. Mr. Brown's business grew substantially and during that time the interest in high quality AR style rifle was growing at a fast pace. Ed decided to concentrate on AR rifles as well as his outstanding 1911 pistols and the bolt action production languished.
In 2012, Mr. David Dunn, to whom I report, purchased Trop Gun Shop in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania. Dave has deep experience and keen interest in the firearms industry and was a consultant to The American Custom Gunmakers Guild, ATK and other organizations in the shooting sports. He has interests and knowledge in the fine gun market as well as military and tactical firearms. Trop Gun Shop dates back to 1961 and has been a mainstay in the Pennsylvania firearms business. Dave and his wife Tara, rebuilt the company both physically and financially and it includes a modern state of the art indoor shooting range, 13000 square feet of retail space and a vibrant and growing e-commerce business. Visit our Web site at: Trop Gun Shop
Mark Bansner, a formally trained gunsmith with a world-class reputation under the business name of Bansner's Ultimate Rifles, has been building state-of-the-art bolt action rifles on a variety of actions for 30 years. Many of you know about or own one of Mark's rifles and his reputation as a riflesmith is first order. Approximately 20 years ago Mark purchased a synthetic stock making company, High Tech Specialties, and over the course of many years continually refined the hand laid fiberglass stock to enhance accuracy, pointability and durability. Mark used these stocks in the production of his Ultimate Rifles as well as making them available on the secondary market to customers via the High Tech Specialties Web site and through Brownells. Mark achieved a worldwide reputation for producing outstanding firearms for the hunting and shooting community.
In 2013 David Dunn purchased the rights to produce and market the 704 action in its entirety from Ed Brown under Trop Gun Shop business. This purchase included all of Ed's drawing and engineering diagrams, spare parts and specialized machinery with full rights to produce and sell the 704 action and rifles based on this action.
In early 2013, David also teamed up in a business agreement to purchase Bansner's Ultimate rifles and High Tech Specialties stock works from Mark. This purchased included all of Mark's business and Mark remains on the management team as President of our manufacturing division. They subsequently formed a new company, Legendary Arms Work, with a goal to produce an American made, state-of-the-art production style bolt action rifle at a competitive price point. It is our company�s view that high quality rifles can be built in America with all the features shooters seek. We feel we can move away from the current industry path of producing cheaper and cheaper injection molded, MIM or cast parts rifles in a race to the bottom. The joining of these three forces, The 704 action, Trop Gun Shop financial and manufacturing capabilities, and Mark Bansner custom firearms expertise, gave rise to Legendary Arms Works. The mission of the company is to produce a rifle of outstanding quality and accuracy that will appeal to the worldwide market at a price that every shooter can afford.
Over the past year Mark and his team have been diligently enhancing and making design modifications on the 704 action to get ready for production. No detail has been left out in this time consuming and expensive process. For example Mark and his gunsmiths spent nearly two full weeks adjusting the design for the 3 positions safety to get the timing, function and feel exactly right. We also have been ramping up a manufacturing and production facility for the stocks and rifle assembly and I have overseen the development of the LAWS Web site. Our company is located in Lancaster County Pennsylvania which is truly the birthplace of American rifle making dating back to the early 1700s and The Pennsylvania Rifle a fact that is not lost on those of us dedicated to the model 704. We formally launched the new company officially in December 2014 and have had outstanding success at the Dallas Safari Club and most recently announcing it at the 2015 SHOT Show where we hosted a writer�s event at the SHOT range day. Our rifles have been used by Craig Boddington in Africa, Canada and the United States and we have become the official rifle sponsor of his television show, The Boddington Experience. In addition, we have a sponsorship relationship with Freddy Harteis, The Hollywood Hunter, and Freddy is using our rifles now on a variety of hunts.
We are currently in late stage production of our three introductory models: The Closer, the Professional and The Big Five. Each of these models have a number of similarities including the M704 true controlled round feed action, a Timney trigger, stainless match grade barrels and a High Tech Specialties fiberglass stock. The rifles action has a strong similarity to a Remington 700 model with the round body to allow for easier bedding and will take 700 bottom metal. Our rifles include Weaver style scope bases on the Closer and Professional and Talley style bases on The Big Five. Complete details and descriptions as well as photographs of our rifles can be viewed at the Legendary Arms Works website: Legendary Arms Works
We are now moving into a full production mode with the hope to have rifles available in the March or April timeframe. For anyone who has been involved in building a firearms manufacturing facility, you can understand the monumental tasks and amount of work plus huge financial commitments that are required to undertake such an endeavor. The rifle actions are machined from 416 stainless steel on state of the art CNC machines. Currently we are producing two action lengths, the short action 308 size, and a long action 30-06 size that will handle standard magnum rounds such as the 300 Winchester and 375 H&H magnum. Our plans and ideas are many and include a true magnum sized action and eventually left handed configured actions. For the moment we are offering a rifles in a broad and novel variety of caliber options such as the 35 Whelen, 26 Nosler, and 6.5 Creedmoor etc. but are limiting stock color and Cerakote metal finish colors to allow us to get rifles out to our customers. At some point in the future we will begin again offering custom rifles similar to what Mark offered for many years. Our rifles come with a full lifetime guarantee for the life of the rifle not the owner and an accuracy guarantee. All the pertinent details can be found at the Legendary Arms Works website.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market. We waited until our production facility was well under way to announce the company to avoid the usual firearms industry new product announcement and significant time lag before availability. The rifle is truly 100 % American made, every piece of metal, spring, screw etc. is a 100% American made and we believe we have a price point that will pose a very significant challenge to our competitors. In addition we will make our Model 704 actions available to purchase to the gunsmith trade.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide insight into our company and the people that are driving at and we look forward to our success. Please visit our Website for more information.
Jeezus Gawd you Clueless Fhuqks go wayyyyyyyyyyy outta your way,to fhuqk simple [bleep] up! That is an awesomely pathetic Fluff piece,fixating on STUPIDITY. The name dropping is fhuqking HILARIOUS! Like ANY of you dumb fhuqkers associated and who "helped" with this Goat Fhuqk,have a first fhuqking clue?!? PLEASE cite how you all really "thought" this out! Laffin'!
As opening moves,you totally botched twist rates. Then cite NOTHING in regards to COAL latitude or throat geometry.
Here's a fhuqking question. How come all of you stupid fhuqkers bolted together,can so badly botch so many things...given all your collective "knowledge" and "experience"?!? Laffin'!
A herd of Salad Eaters threw some schit together and dumbfhuqks as stupid as you,think it is "something"?!? You gals had best delete your dumbfhuqkery and connect some dots.
Thank me later for the guidance.
Hint.
Wow.
P.S. and by the way,consider it a Two Dog Dare,to get some of your "names" to say something about rifles,glass or bullets and I assure you,it will be funnier than fhuqk. You obviously are in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over your head and will need to burn more than a few Life Lines,to begin to crowd par.
Thanks for the information. I have been and will continue to watch the development of Legendary Arms Works. And will keep you in mind when I "need" another rifle.
Also please do not judge the membership by one or two posts. Most people here have at least a few manners and are reasonably polite.
Mr. Reed, Welcome to 24HCF. Merging/integrating multiple businesses into a single operating unit is a significant endeavor. I wish your group well. As a Southpaw, I will be waiting (patiently) to see when the Left Hand versions become available.
Finally, the "ignore" button is very handy for blocking out the "noise".
After your thoughtful introduction, I'm ashamed that your first response was this.
I've always wanted a "Brown" rifle. I'm looking forward to doing business with your firm. Perhaps you can come back here when things are in full swing, and you can tell us where the dealers are so we can see your rifles.
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Glad you think the High Tech Specialties stocks are well regarded. Mark used that stock after purchasing the company 20 years ago on all his rifles and we have basically kept it the same with a few minor modifications to make production easier and faster. They are still hand laid fiberglass with all the finish, fit and feel of the originals.
This is the part that has me concerned. I've had several of the original stocks from Mark over the years.
When you say they're still "hand laid glass" does that mean they're still made with sheets of glass cloth like they've always been? Or are you using chopped glass?
I think in general Marks previous stocks finished up at around 26 oz's with paint and bedding w/ 1" Decelerator. What's the current average weight now that you've added aluminum?
Brad, it sounds pretty clear to me that he is saying that they are made the same way but just on a larger scale. The original High Tech stocks that Mark put on his customs were excellent. From their literature it sounds like they have designed some sort of modified aluminum bedding block system for the recoil lug area and a separate type pillar for the rear tang.
I hope that's the case... I've always liked the Banser and would hate to see it jacked with. "Aluminum bedding blocks" are something that is a warning flag to me (think chopped glass).
Curious as to why they are a "warning flag" to you. I've always thought of bedding blocks as a way to get a better and perhaps stiffer platform than having a synthetic stock without a bedding system, meaning not glassed/Marine-Texed w/o pillars as well. In the literal sense, "bedding blocks" are not really a bedding system when you are trying to mate a receiver to a particular stock. A bedding system using pillars and some form of epoxy perfectly mates (or cratels) the receiver to the stock so that their are no voids between the two or IOW no air space at all. With factory actions there are certain variances between the size of the receiver at the front and at the rear. A stock company has to account for those tiny variances by going slightly larger so that all their stocks will mate to a factory receiver. Obviously, that can't happen with a aluminum chassis so to get that perfect mate, you'll still have to use some sort of epoxy to fill in the gaps. To me, aluminum bedding blocks are better than no bedding, but I still prefer the old standard of using pillars and Marine-Tex.
The only stocks I'm aware of that use aluminum blocks are all chopped glass... they need them for strength. That's why it's a warning flag.
I don't get adding a heavy chunk of metal in the lug area and a pillar in the rear... why not just pillars in both?
Seems self defeating.
One of the raison d'etre of a fiberglass stock is light weight. Start adding "blocks" and the ounces start accumulating.
On the other thread Reed answered the question about glass, but didn't answer the portion about current weight.
I have a McMillan Hunters Edge on order and had been contemplating cancelling it to order another Bansner... it's looking less likely I'll be doing that. The original Bansner was already around 2oz's heavier, and it sounds like even more now.
But, it would be nice if the gent would respond to my weight query to remove all doubt... I find it hard to believe an electronic scale is not on the premises.
The only stocks I'm aware of that use aluminum blocks are all chopped glass... they need them for strength. That's why it's a warning flag.
I don't get adding a heavy chunk of metal in the lug area and a pillar in the rear... why not just pillars in both?
Seems self defeating.
One of the raison d'etre of a fiberglass stock is light weight. Start adding "blocks" and the ounces start accumulating.
On the other thread Reed answered the question about glass, but didn't answer the portion about current weight.
I have a McMillan Hunters Edge on order and had been contemplating cancelling it to order another Bansner... it's looking less likely I'll be doing that. The original Bansner was already around 2oz's heavier, and it sounds like even more now.
That makes them out for me.
If you take what I said before about action variances then I think you might understand why bolting a receiver to one solid aluminum chassis can cause the action to flex or twist so to speak when you tighten the two together. I think using a separate system (block type up front and a pillar of sorts) at the rear makes more sense. I might be entirely wrong about this so it's best to leave this with the experts, like Mark Bansner.
As fa as I low from having had several original Bansner stocks,solid fiberglass pillars were molded into the stock,as opposed to adding them afterwards,as we do with some other designs. But each stock had to be bedded to the rifle.
Seems that has been replaced by the aluminum bedding blocks, probably to facilitate easier manufacturing on a mass basis as opposed to the older design which required individual bedding of each stock,which would be more expensive and time consuming....one of those little things we do for ourselves or paid Bansners to do for us...a "custom" touch. Not something we usually get in a production rifle.
Hart in Pennsylvania used to use poured pillars made from Bisonite, then Marine-Tex for bedding the action. Like you said, very time consuming and not something you will see on a production rifle. Sounds like some folks would like to see these new rifles with a custom bedding job, Krieger barrel and maybe throw in a Jewell trigger too for $1500.
As fa as I low from having had several original Bansner stocks,solid fiberglass pillars were molded into the stock,as opposed to adding them afterwards,as we do with some other designs. But each stock had to be bedded to the rifle.
Seems that has been replaced by the aluminum bedding blocks, probably to facilitate easier manufacturing on a mass basis as opposed to the older design which required individual bedding of each stock,which would be more expensive and time consuming....one of those little things we do for ourselves or paid Bansners to do for us...a "custom" touch. Not something we usually get in a production rifle.
Bob, I've had a couple Bansners and did the work on them myself. To my knowledge they never came with pillars. IMO, one of the best "pillars" to use to keep weight down is carbon arrow shafts cut, and epoxied in. Aluminum ain't needed.
I have no interest in these rifles at all, I'm only interested in the stock for use on M70's... I think the Bansner for the pre-64 M70 is a great stock with its straight comb and addition of a cheekpiece. Aids in getting "into the scope" that of needs is mounted higher on a pre-64 than on a Classic.
I would greatly appreciate a response from Reed as to their average painted weight.
Brad I had Bansners do the bedding....that's what they told me.But maybe they DID install the pillars in the bedding process.Since you worked on them yourself you would know.
Can tell you that there were for sure pillars in mine and they were not aluminum,so maybe Clay (I think that was his name) installed them during bedding and I misunderstood what he said.
In any event those screw would bottom out and that would be IT!
Thank for the interest and recent postings in Legendary Arms Works rifles. I would like to take the opportunity to respond to the posting and some of the comments related to Legendary Arms Works and to give clarification about the company.I have posted similar information on other forums because we want to ensure that the most accurate and honest information is available to our customer base.
In the spirit of full disclosure-My name is Paul Reed and I am the Chief Operating Officer for Trop Gun Shop Corporation and Legendary Arms Works. Trop Gun Shop is a retail and online firearms company and we have a manufacturing division that includes Legendary Arms Works where the 704 rifles are being built. We are the sole owners and producers of the Legendary Arms Works Model 704 bolt action rifle. A little bit of history about the company will help to clarify. The creation of Legendary Arms Works comes about through the joining of three forces in the firearms industry and is an interesting story that will help to understand the company and the people driving it.
Ed Brown created the 704 bolt action around 2002 with improvements over the next few years that led ultimately to the Model 704. He produced a small number of rifles for a time period and they were of very high quality and had excellent accuracy. The development of the 704 action was novel at the time and for anyone who knows Mr. Brown would not be surprised at his design, it is an engineering accomplishment. Mr. Brown's business grew substantially and during that time the interest in high quality AR style rifle was growing at a fast pace. Ed decided to concentrate on AR rifles as well as his outstanding 1911 pistols and the bolt action production languished.
In 2012, Mr. David Dunn, to whom I report, purchased Trop Gun Shop in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania. Dave has deep experience and keen interest in the firearms industry and was a consultant to The American Custom Gunmakers Guild, ATK and other organizations in the shooting sports. He has interests and knowledge in the fine gun market as well as military and tactical firearms. Trop Gun Shop dates back to 1961 and has been a mainstay in the Pennsylvania firearms business. Dave and his wife Tara, rebuilt the company both physically and financially and it includes a modern state of the art indoor shooting range, 13000 square feet of retail space and a vibrant and growing e-commerce business. Visit our Web site at: Trop Gun Shop
Mark Bansner, a formally trained gunsmith with a world-class reputation under the business name of Bansner's Ultimate Rifles, has been building state-of-the-art bolt action rifles on a variety of actions for 30 years. Many of you know about or own one of Mark's rifles and his reputation as a riflesmith is first order. Approximately 20 years ago Mark purchased a synthetic stock making company, High Tech Specialties, and over the course of many years continually refined the hand laid fiberglass stock to enhance accuracy, pointability and durability. Mark used these stocks in the production of his Ultimate Rifles as well as making them available on the secondary market to customers via the High Tech Specialties Web site and through Brownells. Mark achieved a worldwide reputation for producing outstanding firearms for the hunting and shooting community.
In 2013 David Dunn purchased the rights to produce and market the 704 action in its entirety from Ed Brown under Trop Gun Shop business. This purchase included all of Ed's drawing and engineering diagrams, spare parts and specialized machinery with full rights to produce and sell the 704 action and rifles based on this action.
In early 2013, David also teamed up in a business agreement to purchase Bansner's Ultimate rifles and High Tech Specialties stock works from Mark. This purchased included all of Mark's business and Mark remains on the management team as President of our manufacturing division. They subsequently formed a new company, Legendary Arms Work, with a goal to produce an American made, state-of-the-art production style bolt action rifle at a competitive price point. It is our company�s view that high quality rifles can be built in America with all the features shooters seek. We feel we can move away from the current industry path of producing cheaper and cheaper injection molded, MIM or cast parts rifles in a race to the bottom. The joining of these three forces, The 704 action, Trop Gun Shop financial and manufacturing capabilities, and Mark Bansner custom firearms expertise, gave rise to Legendary Arms Works. The mission of the company is to produce a rifle of outstanding quality and accuracy that will appeal to the worldwide market at a price that every shooter can afford.
Over the past year Mark and his team have been diligently enhancing and making design modifications on the 704 action to get ready for production. No detail has been left out in this time consuming and expensive process. For example Mark and his gunsmiths spent nearly two full weeks adjusting the design for the 3 positions safety to get the timing, function and feel exactly right. We also have been ramping up a manufacturing and production facility for the stocks and rifle assembly and I have overseen the development of the LAWS Web site. Our company is located in Lancaster County Pennsylvania which is truly the birthplace of American rifle making dating back to the early 1700s and The Pennsylvania Rifle a fact that is not lost on those of us dedicated to the model 704. We formally launched the new company officially in December 2014 and have had outstanding success at the Dallas Safari Club and most recently announcing it at the 2015 SHOT Show where we hosted a writer�s event at the SHOT range day. Our rifles have been used by Craig Boddington in Africa, Canada and the United States and we have become the official rifle sponsor of his television show, The Boddington Experience. In addition, we have a sponsorship relationship with Freddy Harteis, The Hollywood Hunter, and Freddy is using our rifles now on a variety of hunts.
We are currently in late stage production of our three introductory models: The Closer, the Professional and The Big Five. Each of these models have a number of similarities including the M704 true controlled round feed action, a Timney trigger, stainless match grade barrels and a High Tech Specialties fiberglass stock. The rifles action has a strong similarity to a Remington 700 model with the round body to allow for easier bedding and will take 700 bottom metal. Our rifles include Weaver style scope bases on the Closer and Professional and Talley style bases on The Big Five. Complete details and descriptions as well as photographs of our rifles can be viewed at the Legendary Arms Works website: Legendary Arms Works
We are now moving into a full production mode with the hope to have rifles available in the March or April timeframe. For anyone who has been involved in building a firearms manufacturing facility, you can understand the monumental tasks and amount of work plus huge financial commitments that are required to undertake such an endeavor. The rifle actions are machined from 416 stainless steel on state of the art CNC machines. Currently we are producing two action lengths, the short action 308 size, and a long action 30-06 size that will handle standard magnum rounds such as the 300 Winchester and 375 H&H magnum. Our plans and ideas are many and include a true magnum sized action and eventually left handed configured actions. For the moment we are offering a rifles in a broad and novel variety of caliber options such as the 35 Whelen, 26 Nosler, and 6.5 Creedmoor etc. but are limiting stock color and Cerakote metal finish colors to allow us to get rifles out to our customers. At some point in the future we will begin again offering custom rifles similar to what Mark offered for many years. Our rifles come with a full lifetime guarantee for the life of the rifle not the owner and an accuracy guarantee. All the pertinent details can be found at the Legendary Arms Works website.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market. We waited until our production facility was well under way to announce the company to avoid the usual firearms industry new product announcement and significant time lag before availability. The rifle is truly 100 % American made, every piece of metal, spring, screw etc. is a 100% American made and we believe we have a price point that will pose a very significant challenge to our competitors. In addition we will make our Model 704 actions available to purchase to the gunsmith trade.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide insight into our company and the people that are driving at and we look forward to our success. Please visit our Website for more information.
Paul
"Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" NRA Patron Member
I'll feign my "surprise",that it got VERY fhuqking quiet...VERY fhuqking fast. Laughing!
I enjoyed "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas"...though it should read "Dumbfhuqkus Headupassis". Just saying. Hint.
Is this when/where I stand agog that you've ZERO fhuqking clue in regards to twist rate,throat geometry and COAL?!? Or might you be going FULL Secret Squirrel and about to regale the masses with your collective dumbfhuqkery summonsed via your version of "knowledge","experience" and "results"? Laughing!!!
You Drooling Clueless Dumbfhuqks are a hoot!
Again...PLEASE do not let the cat get your tongue,nor the couch your kchunt.
You "hard charging" "visionaries" are on fhuqking FIRE!!!
Brad, I do know that Bansner changed the weight specs on their stocks perhaps a year or so ago, adding a couple/three ounces. Perhaps a pm to Reed or an email to Reed or Mark will confirm actual current weights. Given the tone of some previous posts Reed may be hesitant to subject himself and his company to further insults on an open forum. Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market.
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Hart in Pennsylvania used to use poured pillars made from Bisonite, then Marine-Tex for bedding the action. Like you said, very time consuming and not something you will see on a production rifle. Sounds like some folks would like to see these new rifles with a custom bedding job, Krieger barrel and maybe throw in a Jewell trigger too for $1500.
Cant be done...not today I don't think. Gotta be realistic.
Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
Pat, my questions were polite.
Why Rick continues to allow Midget Mouth to inhabit this forum is beyond me, but I would think a business man could see past a frustrated little man from AK and answer legitimate questions, especially those of a past, and potential future, customer.
Banser didn't change their weights any time in the last ten years I'm aware of. Dober got an M70 this past fall and it's the same as the M70 I bought two and ten years ago.
Brad, to be clear I thought your questions were done in a respectful manner. They used to list their blanks at 21-22 ounces, now they are listed at 23-24 ounces. Like you, I like their blanks, a lot. I have used them on mausers and remington 700s. One on a mauser (FN actually) was a 35 whelen that finished up right at 8lbs and it did a great job of minimizing recoil. The ones I have finished always ended up at 25-26 ounces with a 1" decelerator on them. The last one was probably 3-4 years ago.
Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
Pat, my questions were polite.
Why Rick continues to allow Midget Mouth to inhabit this forum is beyond me, but I would think a business man could see past a frustrated little man from AK and answer legitimate questions, especially those of a past, and potential future, customer.
Banser didn't change their weights any time in the last ten years I'm aware of. Dober got an M70 this past fall and it's the same as the M70 I bought two and ten years ago.
Brad(Whining Kchunt),
I DO enjoy your PERPETUAL Whining Kchuntfest on how Life ain't "fair". While I'll not speak for anyone/everyone else..I DO enjoy your Imaginary/Pretend Ignore and other Hissy Fits! mebbe quit again and Whine more?!? Laughing!!
Your realization that you are amongst THE dumbest of fhuqks,don't begin to do your Nothingness any "justice". Laughing!
DO tell about your "Boddington COAL latitudes" and "Hollywood Hunter throating"...you amazingly STUPID fhuqk!!! Don't cry in a corner,in your high-heels,when you could "suggest" your twist rate(s). Laffin'!!!
Here's to the sanctity of Imaginary Pretend Ignore and your version of having a FIRST "clue".
As an aside... who puts the spoon to your quivering lips?
The ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination,in no particular order. PLEASE find me "mistaken".
Laughing!.........
(addendum)
Salty,
PLEASE cite the "worse" twist rates you've "seen" and say a leetle sumptin' about boolits,while musing COAL and throating too.
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Apologies for the delay in responding to questions, we are very busy trying to meet the demand. There are a number of questions related to various topics as well some specific poster questions.
Twist rates: I am pleased to tell you that after discussion with Mark and the gunsmithing team we will be changing the twist rate on the 243 to 1 in 9�. It will be reflected on the Web site next week during an update. In addition we are looking into all the other caliber twists to see if they too need �modernized�. For Steelhead, bloodworks, 4ager, darrenk75b, deflave and anyone else who questioned the 243 twist, we listened and changed. Please call the number on the LAWs Website to place your pre-order, we are ready.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015.
With regard to the cheek piece-The Big Five model will have the fine line cheek piece for now. We are discussing the changes to production needed if we want to use that cheek piece on the Closer and Professional. There is some handwork involved which adds to production time but is sure looks nice I will agree. Stay tuned on this one.
More answers and comments to follow. Thank you to everyone who had given us feedback on the rifles.
Ron Spomer reviewed the rifle with Mark Bansner at SHOT and we have posted a video on our Web site here:
Very cool Reed glad to see you guys are eyes wide open and able to fine tune things on the go.
bob'- As best I know rifle components can't be shipped out of the US to individuals. US H L security requires a complicated to receive permit for export and its only issued to approved Importers (dealers) abroad who also have to go through a lot of red tape. Something like that anyway...
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
I give a crap, and that's why I'm putting custom tubes on rifles. As a consumer there are few companies offering an off the shelf rifle with the features I want. Companies like Matrix, Berger, CEB, and GS all make hunting bullets that are better in faster twist in 6mm calibers than 1:9. The only 115 I know that will stabilize in a 1:8 is the DTAC and I'd use them on pronghorn, coyotes, and other vermin.
I'd love to see a fast twist .257 & .277 as well at least a 1:9 to take better advantage of the bullets being offered today. They aren't making bullets any shorter and while the old staples work well, there are plenty of guys out there like me who experiment. My question is what does it hurt to run a fast twist?
The 280AI was immediately interesting until I noticed the 1/10" twist on the spec sheet. Move that to a 1/8.5 or 1/9 at the absolute slowest. Nice looking rifles. Will keep an eye on your progress. More options only help the consumer.
Trends are trends and since the first mono-metal Barnes bullets in hunting guns and 69,77, and 80 grain Sierra Matchkings in AR's shooters have become interested in sufficient twist for long bullets!
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
Why not market to the "rifle" guys? If the others aren't in the know, what would it hurt? It's not like faster twists have a negative impact in the cartridges mentioned...
I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles?
The rifle buying majority is more interested in sub $500 rifles, you might recognize this if you pay attention to where the major companies are focusing their attention. A $1000+ hunting rifle isn't something average Joe hunter is going to buy. So that leaves the rifle loonies who want faster twists to push the limits.
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
I agree. This obsession with BC. I can understand having a rifle built with LR in mind, but does every rifle with every load need to be 700-yard capable?
I suppose it gives people something to talk about.
We truly appreciate the feedback and comments on our rifles. This forum is a unique set of expertise that we value. I would like to add a few thoughts and opinions.
First as I have stated we want to build rifles that are 100% American made and of the highest quality and accuracy at a price point that make them competitive. We got tired of seeing “the race to the bottom” in rifle production by many manufacturers. It is self-defeating and in my opinion a self-cannibalization process…where does it end? While there is certainly nothing wrong with a rifle with an injection molded stock, cast aluminum bed block and plain tubular action selling for under $500…even closer to under $300, it is not what the knowledgeable shooting public wants in our opinion. Those rifles may serve a market, perhaps the beginner or someone on a tight budget, but eventually consumers who keep their interest in firearms and especially those who are knowledgeable like this forum seek more. That is the market we want as JasonH and taylorforce1 opine and we believe others will agree. Our rifles sell for slightly more that many standard big company production rifles and we think we can convince customers to consider these rifles seriously. The cost difference is not that significant and is monumentally different when you compare features, quality and pedigree.
Every product on the market and perhaps especially true in the firearms market, represents a compromise of some sort. We will be offering true custom rifles again where you can get what you want and the price will reflect it. The Legendary Arms Works rifles then in fact have to be offered with some compromises in reality. We are continually looking at where that takes us to balance the features offered, our production capabilities, speed and of course price. Feedback like we get here and other high use forums give us the contact with the market that we seek. Twists rates are important, no question. There is a move to shoot longer, heavier bullets in the industry especially for the long range aficionados and we understand that…many of us at the company shoot rifles and cartridges in that sphere too. We started with what are considered to be “industry standards” and will go from there. You have seen that we are being responsive with the twist rate change for the 243, so I think we have demonstrated our commitment to change but our decisions will be driven by data which may include customer opinion as well as technical and engineering research and will be done with care and thought.
Thank you the Forum to allow us to participate, we welcome you input.
Your research should bear out the information that a .22-250 and a .243(as well as other chamberings) will perform better across all spectrums with a faster twist rate.A 1:12 twisted .22-250 is only a "C" hair better than 1:14 companies are using as standard. A wagon with wooden wheels was once standard transportation but it's now history due to knowledge learned and modern engineering There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Apologies for the delay in responding to questions, we are very busy trying to meet the demand. There are a number of questions related to various topics as well some specific poster questions.
Twist rates: I am pleased to tell you that after discussion with Mark and the gunsmithing team we will be changing the twist rate on the 243 to 1 in 9�. It will be reflected on the Web site next week during an update. In addition we are looking into all the other caliber twists to see if they too need �modernized�. For Steelhead, bloodworks, 4ager, darrenk75b, deflave and anyone else who questioned the 243 twist, we listened and changed. Please call the number on the LAWs Website to place your pre-order, we are ready.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015.
With regard to the cheek piece-The Big Five model will have the fine line cheek piece for now. We are discussing the changes to production needed if we want to use that cheek piece on the Closer and Professional. There is some handwork involved which adds to production time but is sure looks nice I will agree. Stay tuned on this one.
More answers and comments to follow. Thank you to everyone who had given us feedback on the rifles.
Ron Spomer reviewed the rifle with Mark Bansner at SHOT and we have posted a video on our Web site here:
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
I don't think that "hundreds" of people have stated that the twist rates are too slow. A few dedicated, hardcore "rifle loonies" on this board seem to think that everyone out there is rolling their own ammo and shooting small calibers at extreme distances. That simply is not the case. While there are plenty of awesome long range rifles, scopes and cartridges being sold, most of the people that buy them can't shoot them worth a s$&@. They read about the latest greatest thing in a magazine, and they buy it so they can show it off at hunting camp. I have no doubt that some of the folks on this forum that are pushing for the faster twist rates are extremely good riflemen. Heck, I'm sure most of you could probably outshoot me. However the fact remains, that the vast majority of the folks buying rifles today, even middle of the road rifles, simply can't shoot them to their full potential. I would be willing to bet that if you walked into most gunshops during deer season and asked people which twist rate they prefer in a given caliber, they would stare at you like you had a phallus protruding from your forehead. If you want mainstream rifle makers to offer a faster twist rate for a .243, go convince the ammo manufacturers to offer factory loaded ammo with 105-115 grain hunting bullets. I could be very wrong here, but I think that handloading is a dying hobby. Perhaps it's just the area I live in, but most of the guys that handload around here are in the "over 50 crowd".
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
The 1:9 will allow the 105 hpbt and perhaps the amax, but my preference would be to shoot the 105 Berger, which would require 1:8. Still, these do seem to offer much for the price
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
I don't think that "hundreds" of people have stated that the twist rates are too slow. A few dedicated, hardcore "rifle loonies" on this board seem to think that everyone out there is rolling their own ammo and shooting small calibers at extreme distances. That simply is not the case. While there are plenty of awesome long range rifles, scopes and cartridges being sold, most of the people that buy them can't shoot them worth a s$&@. They read about the latest greatest thing in a magazine, and they buy it so they can show it off at hunting camp. I have no doubt that some of the folks on this forum that are pushing for the faster twist rates are extremely good riflemen. Heck, I'm sure most of you could probably outshoot me. However the fact remains, that the vast majority of the folks buying rifles today, even middle of the road rifles, simply can't shoot them to their full potential. I would be willing to bet that if you walked into most gunshops during deer season and asked people which twist rate they prefer in a given caliber, they would stare at you like you had a phallus protruding from your forehead. If you want mainstream rifle makers to offer a faster twist rate for a .243, go convince the ammo manufacturers to offer factory loaded ammo with 105-115 grain hunting bullets. I could be very wrong here, but I think that handloading is a dying hobby. Perhaps it's just the area I live in, but most of the guys that handload around here are in the "over 50 crowd".
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
I bet you're the bright one in the family, you silly twit.
If, as you say, so many don't care about twist, then why the [bleep] would they be bothered if it was a 1-8"? That way you cater to those that WANT a faster twist and those that don't have the first [bleep] clue.
Here's another hint, 55's shoot just as well in a 1-8" twist 243 as do 105's.
Why do you guys think that a manufacturer should cater to what YOU want? These are not, "Legendary Arms Works, designed by members of 24 hour campfire". These are production grade hunting rifles, and not very expensive rifles at that. These are middle of the road as far as price goes......perhaps even the low end of the middle market. These are not even "semi-custom" hunting rifles, as your only options are the caliber. These are simply a new twist on production grade hunting rifles. The stock is better than the bell and carlsons that most $1000-1500 rifles are using these days, and the action is something different. The last time the Ed Brown action was on the market, it was over $3000 if I remember correctly.
I certainly don't mind you guys having an opinion, and I'm not discounting the fact that you are making some valid points. However, to come on here and say that the company doesn't know what they are doing because you don't agree with the twist rate for a few calibers is a profoundly stupid statement. The arrogance of some of the folks on this board is almost unbelievable sometimes. Even if you think that you do know it all, please don't come on here and act like it. Some of you guys act like the manufacturer is stupid for not listening to your ideas about rifle design, again pretty laughable. When you pony up the money and become an investor in the venture, perhaps they will give you a seat at the design table.
I feel as though they are being very responsive by changing the .243 twist rate to 1:9.
At any rate, I have ordered one of the "closer" models in .243. Im waiting for someone from LAW to contact my dealer about payment and production schedules. Is it a gamble, yes. However I think it's a pretty safe bet that the rifles are going to be very nice.
If you pulled up to their house with a dump truck load of money, we have some folks here that would bitch and moan because it wasn't stacked and counted.
tedthorn, I would say that $1500 is absolutely middle of the road. Go take a look at Blaser, Steyr, Kilamanjaro Rifles, Jarrett Rifles, Dakota Rifles, Nesika, Proof Research, Cooper, Lazzeroni.......the list goes on. You are going to burn $3000-5000 with most of those brands, and $15,000-20,000 with at least one of them.
Granted, some of them are more custom than production, but when you consider what LAW is offering, it starts to sound like a downright bargain.
I for one am sick of walking into a gunshop full of black plastic wonders. I don't give a darn how well they shoot......they are cosmetic abominations IMHO. I appreciate craftsmanship and innovation. I don't view a rifle as a tool. It is a work of art. That's why most of my hunting rifles wear nice walnut stocks. However there are certainly situations that call for synthetic stocks, and if I'm going to buy one, I certainly don't want it to look like Rubbermaids attempt at rifle design.......Ruger American, Winchester XPR, Remington 783, etc. That is why I have chosen to spend my hard earned money on a LAW rifle. In the end, there are plenty of choices for everyone. That's the great thing about the gun culture here in the United States. We are spolied rotten with awesome firearms!
GregW, yes sir. If all a man wants is a "tool" to get the job done, why would he look any further than the weatherby vanguard, ruger american, remington 700 sps, etc? All of those rifles will take a beating, and will probably be accurate enough to satisfy most shooters. Truly, the bottom end of the market is better than it has ever been, and the rifles in the $500-1000 price range will certainly do anything that a man needs to do.
However I appreciate the backstory behind companies such as LAW. The combination of Mark Bansners know how, his High Tech Specialities stocks, and the Ed Brown designed action. I enjoy the minutiae like that. I'm sure a lot of folks couldn't care less, but again, different strokes for different folks.
GregW, I fail to see how it matters where and how someone hunts. If all you are looking for is a lightweight, rugged, accurate "tool", there are plenty of sub $1000 rifles that will fit the bill nicely. Why would you even consider a more expensive rifle when the majority of the cheap ones shoot sub-moa, are around 7 pounds, some less, and you could run them over with a truck and not hurt them much?
However, to answer your question, I live in NC, and do most of my hunting in the central and western part of the state. I'll be headed to Africa for plains game in 2016. No, Ive never hunted out west where you live.
PH's love clients with pretty rifles not viewed as a tool
In my hunt report I pointed out that my 20 year old scratched up and rusty but proven Remington 700 in super simple 30-06 was my perfect rifle for hard hunting.....
Some would say they wouldn't drop that kind of $$ and hunt with a utility rifle.....funny
I like my rifles but I hunt to hunt....not to pet and admire a rifle
I'm in the "my rifle is a tool" class and performance is it's first and most important job
GregW, I fail to see how it matters where and how someone hunts. If all you are looking for is a lightweight, rugged, accurate "tool", there are plenty of sub $1000 rifles that will fit the bill nicely. Why would you even consider a more expensive rifle when the majority of the cheap ones shoot sub-moa, are around 7 pounds, some less, and you could run them over with a truck and not hurt them much?
However, to answer your question, I live in NC, and do most of my hunting in the central and western part of the state. I'll be headed to Africa for plains game in 2016. No, Ive never hunted out west where you live.
I'll be paying more attention to you. If you've hunted North Carolina all your life then you know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.
So, if I'm hearing you guys correctly, it's not ok to purchase a rifle just because you want to? And it's not ok to want to hunt with nice looking walnut rifles? That's good to know, I've been doing it wrong for 20 years! I'm glad you guys have enlightened me!
GregW, could you please explain how any of the cheap rifles I mentioned will not kill animals west if the Mississippi? Or how LAW rifles are not suitable for you and your clients to use? This is starting to get pretty laughable.
Perhaps If you guys really want someone to give a crap about your opinions, you should try being a little bit less arrogant. Just because you have existed for many years, and shot many rifles, and killed many animals does not make you an expert on all things firearm related.
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
Slow twists worked great for a lot of years but they greatly limit the versatility of a modern production rifle.
Wow steelhead, you really are a super nice guy aren't you? Perhaps you could impart some of your vast knowledge to us? I haven't seen you do anything except sling [bleep]. It's amazing how arrogant you guys are. Absolutely unwilling to hear any opinion except your own.
Your research should bear out the information that a .22-250 and a .243(as well as other chamberings) will perform better across all spectrums with a faster twist rate.A 1:12 twisted .22-250 is only a "C" hair better than 1:14 companies are using as standard. A wagon with wooden wheels was once standard transportation but it's now history due to knowledge learned and modern engineering There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Nailed it here.... Sell to those looking for (and planning on taking advantage of) the fast twist and to those who don't care one way or the other...or just to those who don't care. I can't find a reason to limit those you want to market to.
I say this after just rebarreling from a 1/10 to a 1/8 .243.
Edited to add: Big thumbs up on listening to folks here. You can be "industry standard" or you can be better. Sounds like you're shooting for much better.
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
As stated, I would not get rid of that BDL style bottom metal for the reasons already stated. Blind mags are a great way for manufacturers to save money and really benefit the few who are looking to save perhaps a couple of ounces. Just pull the BDL floor plate from your run of the mill 700 and you'll quickly see what I mean. Their aluminum floor plate weighs practically nothing.
As far as a cheek piece is concerned, I'd give serious consideration to make all of the stocks with this feature. More production rifles have them than don't have them especially at this price point. As far as the blind magazine option is concerned, remember the words of Dick Davis regarding the costs involved in changing a stock mold. It is very costly. I replaced the factory bottom metal on my 700 with a Williams steel unit and that thing, while beautifully made, probably added 4-5 ounces more than the cheap aluminum factory BDL unit. I'll bet the LAW unit weighs and ounce or two at most.
There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Nailed it here.... Sell to those looking for (and planning on taking advantage of) the fast twist and to those who don't care one way or the other...or just to those who don't care. I can't find a reason to limit those you want to market to.
I say this after just rebarreling from a 1/10 to a 1/8 .243.
Edited to add: Big thumbs up on listening to folks here. You can be "industry standard" or you can be better. Sounds like you're shooting for much better.
I agree that was probably the best post explaining everything most of us are feeling. I know that I won't be buying any production .224 or .243 caliber rifle that doesn't have at least an 8 twist, unless I'm going to use it as as donor action. I don't see the big deal using a 1:8 unless their barrel maker doesn't make one, it doesn't add any extra cost.
I'm grateful that someone has reached out from a manufacturer and asked what people want in a rifle and I respect that greatly. However, to win my business you have to offer something that I can't get elsewhere. If I can't get the twist I want in a production rifle, I have to order a barrel and take it to a gunsmith to get the rifle I want.
If I want a .243 and not worried about shooting anything but old industry standard bullets, I'm going to buy a much cheaper rifle and pocket the rest of the money for optics. That said, I'd be willing to pay extra to get an 1:8 twist barreled rifle, especially if I can pick it up without the wait times I have on building a custom waiting on barrels, stocks and gunsmiths.
Rich, like I said some people like the blind magazine option, but these guys are trying to keep costs down and making a new mold is costly. I think, and I may be wrong, that Dick Davis of McMillan, said that the total cost to make a new mold was close to 20 grand by the time you broke down all the metal pieces and assembled them for a new mold. These guys are trying to be competitive as far as pricing is concerned and I'd bet that more people would like to see a BDL style bottom metal than not. Same thinking I'm sure went into the twist rates in that way more people use factory ammo than the folks you see here that are probably by and large hand loaders. So they (LAW) roll the dice and try to please the bulk of the market and like Mr. Reed also stated, they will eventually offer a custom line as he stated that would be more like what Mark Bansner offered with his custom rifles.
You STUPID fhuqkers are a riot and you couldn't knock the new offa used pair of boots. Now the Epic Hilarity is in your oblivious declaration,that you and your MartMart ways,are 100% clueless in regards to twist rate's literal bearing and that is somehow a default "Trump Card"?!? Joe Average sure as fhuqk ain't very bright,as you incessantly attest and the profundity of your Dumbfhuqktitude is welllllllllll beyond UBER in it's volume and pitch. Tough to beat a high-pitched nasal whine for oblivious hilarity. Congratulations?!? Laughing!
It is funnier than fhuqk that you MartMart fhuqks are swooned by Stupidity,Goat Fhuqks and AMAZINGLY stupid ideas. Read that again. Now one more time. Points awarded for being unable to connect a single dot,even after a trio of attempts. Laughing!
Now if a Crippled Lug,Goat Fhuqk twisted POS,that handles like a railroad tie is your version of "good"...you REALLY should keep such secrets to yourself,because it is beyond glaring in Dumbfhuqktitude. Kudos for being stumped with a blind mag too. Laughing! The only thing you stupid fhuqkers shoot is your mouths and Imaginations. Bless your heart.
"Luckily" for you and your ilk,you get to laude the sweet "satisfactions" that are your's,in being an amazingly stupid fhuqk. Mebbe add merit by making mention how the masses are so incredibly astute,so as to grant your boy Obama both the Popular and Electoral vote. You are in sooooooooooo fhuqking far over your pointy head,it's just simply a shame you can't muster the 17 IQ points requisite,to savvy. Laughing!
I know...I know,you are comforted via the "endorsement" of The Hollywood Hunter and Boddington,due their incredible "insight" as to what makes a rifle tick. Re-laughing!
So here's to the unbridled hilarity of you doing your best(and it is ONLY fhuqking funny,because you are doing your BEST!) and the inability for you to have even the faintest of fhuqking clues,as you talk out your ass while licking windows.
Mechanics matter,despite your being well shy of the grey matter to fathom something so fhuqking obvious. The harmony of twist,throat and COAL is what makes a rifle shine and less those stars being aligned,heavy concession(s) are purposely crafted into the pending Goat Fhuqk. Hint.
Now none too "surprisingly",the poor Boob OP who "offers" said Goat Fhuqk "particulars" has gone wayyyyyyyyyyyy outta her way to step aside of all germane mechanical specs. Mainly because she too is totally fhuqking clueless and wayyyyyyyyyyy over her head,though the "names" dropped were/are especially fhuqking hilarious and will certainly give YOU the warm/fuzzy. Laughing! You "lucky" bitch!!!
Twist in reserve,throat to COAL latitude and bells cain't be made to stop ringing. Read that again. Now one more time. You are now a double "Ace",you dumbfhuqk. Laughing!
I'm REALLY enjoying the notion that you "luckily" stumbled onto a steaming pile of schit,placed in a ZipLoc and are now trying to brag how your INCREDIBLE Fhuqking Stupidity is gonna nudge you to cut a check for same. What next...are you going to tell everyone what a dick tastes like?!? Laughing!
You "hard chargers" are a fhuqking hoot and this is UBER fhuqking hilarity!
P.S. and by the way a true 9" will fling 105 Hyper Boogers at sealevel,though a spout cited to be 9",that ain't...won't. Re-hint. A cleaning rod will answer all questions/concerns and in nano-seconds. Best part being,you cain't know what any of that means. Laughing!
Nothing funnier than a buncha Window Lickers trying to "design" a rifle,then patting themselves on the back and trying to convince one another that the STUPIDITY was "founded" in "merit". Jeezus fhuqking Gwadd THAT is fhuqking funny!
Just oh soooooooooooooo fhuqking WOW.
Again what is COAL latitude and how are these pieces of schit throated...if only to add to the copious hilarity? Or knock it out of The Park and hang a pic of yourself,just to reiterate how mechanical specs are "moot".
RDFinn, I think you just said what I was trying to say with my earlier posts. I think it's awesome that any manufacturer would come on here and be willing to talk to folks about their product. That in itself says a lot about the folks running the company. I sincerely hope they are successful in the marketplace, blind mag or floor plate, and whatever twist rate they decide on. The rifles will be nice either way.
I agree. The guy comes here and tries to promote his product and take the time to answer questions and honestly take suggestions on how to improve his rifles and in return gets a lot of grief, but still stays for feedback, speaks volumes for his company and what he's trying to accomplish. I wish these guys nothing but good will and hope he sells a ton of rifles.
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
You begin it Ginger with your all knowing attitude.
I think they should follow your lead on everything, that way they are guaranteed to fail.
Methinks they are bright enough to not have you on R&D
There is a TON of advice here that this new company needs to consider and even though he's quite poetic and long winded boxer is right when he brings up coal and throat.....twist can't be ignored
There is a TON of advice here that this new company needs to consider and even though he's quite poetic and long winded boxer is right when he brings up coal and throat.....twist can't be ignored
If your going to build it.......do it right
Yes, exactly.
Case in point. Forbes has a GENEROUS COAL with their 3" magazine on a short action platform. Of course they gave their 243 a 1-10" twist. So now you have the magazine, but not the twist.
Ruger got the twist right with the RAR, but the factory magazine can't accept a round loaded with a 75gr Amax.
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
A lot of wasted bandwidth and bluster to say you were wrong You did get one part right....
The only arrogance I see is from a guy who has likely tree stand or blind hunted his whole life who thinks rifle specs do not matter, and who thinks him speaking for the general public matters. Speaking of pot and kettle.
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
Quite a lot to say.....
I however will keep it short
This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in York already builds for 500 less....
Please tell me where I can buy a proprietary bolt action in a high tech specialties stock with a timney trigger and ceracoated metal for $1000? I want one!
Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
Well I imagine you wouldn't stay in business long if you don't listen to the people that you want to buy your product. I'm grateful that Reed has came on here to announce the product that his company LAW is soon to release. Reed's company has a chance to listen to the consumer and make some changes before the rifle hits full production.
Originally Posted by JasonH
Please tell me where I can buy a proprietary bolt action in a high tech specialties stock with a timney trigger and ceracoated metal for $1000? I want one!
I can buy a new Forbes rifle for at least $200 less, more if I hunt around a little. LAW is going to be competing with Kimber and Forbes with their rifles. Why not take this opportunity to offer something that neither of these companies are offering? Their Closer rifle while not heavy starts out a roughly full pound heavier than the Kimber Montana or Forbes rifle, so they need to offer something that the others don't to grab a market share.
No thanks, not my cup o tea. Don't like the stock on the kimber and it's not cerakoted. But like I said earlier, to each their own.
As far as the Forbes, I've not been impressed with the reviews I've read on this and other forums. I would go NULA before I would go Forbes. And perhaps LAW will market a ultra lightweight mountain rifle down the road. I don't think they are trying to compete with Forbes and kimber as much as say Winchester and montana rifle company and Nosler.
As far as not standing out from the crowd, what do you make of the Ed brown 704 action and the high tech specialities stock? A buddy of mine had a high tech specialities stock on a rifle awhile back, and it was much nicer than the bell and carlsons that most manufacturers use IMHO.
I guess you meant Yonkers NY. I like the Montana a lot and it does offer one hell of lot for the money. Most of them appear to be pretty accurate for a fly weight rig but they don't have an accuracy promise so if you do get one that doesn't shoot you're on your own. For the money, if you're in the market for a fly weight rig, you can't beat the Montana.
I guess you meant Yonkers NY. I like the Montana a lot and it does offer one hell of lot for the money. Most of them appear to be pretty accurate for a fly weight rig but they don't have an accuracy promise so if you do get one that doesn't shoot you're on your own. For the money, if you're in the market for a fly weight rig, you can't beat the Montana.
I would agree with that but the LAW is offering something completely different by going with the Ed Brown, whereas, all the others that will compete with the LAW are doing so with some sort of Remington clone, with the exception of the Kimber that is a scaled down Mauser if I'm not mistaken. I owned a first generation Kimber Classic before they went to a three pos safety and it was a beautiful little rifle, but it isn't what I would call a tack driver and mine was a 7-08, normally a pretty accurate round.
No thanks, not my cup o tea. Don't like the stock on the kimber and it's not cerakoted. But like I said earlier, to each their own.
As far as the Forbes, I've not been impressed with the reviews I've read on this and other forums. I would go NULA before I would go Forbes. And perhaps LAW will market a ultra lightweight mountain rifle down the road. I don't think they are trying to compete with Forbes and kimber as much as say Winchester and montana rifle company and Nosler.
Don't like the Forbes? At least they are out there to try. Yet you're fully enamored with a rifle that nobody but a select few have handled and shot. Plus how does a rifle at a $1500 price point not compete with a Forbes or Kimber?
Forbes and kimber are marketing to the crowd that wants a super lightweight rifle. That's not what I'm in the market for at the moment, and that's not what the LAW rifles are. They are standard sporter weight rifles, which is what I'm looking for.
In my mind, the LAW is competing directly with the montana rifle company x2 and the Nosler patriot.
How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
Yeah, because any of those guys pay for any of this schit… Oh thats right. The people on this forum are the real purchasers of these products. Those people you just listed are the same ones that pimp mossberg 4x4 rifles and piece of schit tc encores.
Why don't you go look at the number of members of this forum and tell me if its not enough to keep a semi custom rifle company in business. Most people who would be interested in one of these rifles are either members here, or would at least do some research first before purchasing and come across some of the threads here.
The LAW rifle also has an all stainless action and I don't think any of the others have an all stainless action. The Kimber might be and awhile back I emailed them asking that question and never received a response. The Forbes action has a SS body, but uses a CM bolt. No CeraKote either. Price wise, I do agree with others that the LAW will compete with them, but I don't believe LAW's goal was to offer yet another flyweight rifle. So you get a custom action that is certainly unique, a High Tech stock, an all stainless action, Timney trigger, accuracy guarantee and a Cerakoted barreled action for $1500
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Think I'm going to start up my own rifle company this year. The action will be made from recycled beer cans, the stock will feature alternating laminated popsicle sticks with a bedding block that runs the entire length of the stock, military surplus rifle barrels and a high tech proprietary Kyrlon metal treatment that John Burns and I developed. It will only be offered in 30-30 and perhaps in the future a 30/06 will be added with a 1-14 twist.
First, I think its great that we are seeing an interesting approach in a new rifle - a hybrid of the custom rifle many make/buy - think good action plus an aftermarket stock. Eg Model 70 for 700/800 plus a mcmillan for 500/600.
Like many I spend a lot of time on forums looking for rifles. I'm partial to CRF so I generally look for a model 70 with a nice aftermarket stock and, ideally, a good barrel but would be fine with a nice stock and factory barreled action. LAW seems to be providing this plus a better trigger and, likely, a better barrel than most factory rifles. Seems like a great start to me. Bottom metal does look a bit clunky, but most companies change their products over time to make them better.
While I agree with the feedback on twist rates, I'm impressed with the change to the .243 and, like others, think we should give these guys a chance to get going and iterate their product. They are trying to provide a high quality rifle for a good value - IMHO we should all be cheering them on - why would any of us not want another rifle option - especially one trying to hit the spot between factory and synthetic customs - no downside to any of us, all upside if they are successful in building a great rifle.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
My feelings as well. How many companies come onto a forum not only to announce a new product, but take the time (and grief) to listen to potential buyers, answer questions and take feedback honestly with a willingness to make changes if necessary ? I think maybe Forbes did but not sure. Kimber ? Nope.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Okay I'm not a gun writer but I am a gunsmith and I have met your hero Boddington. He's a nice guy who's shot a bunch of stuff.
I think what people are trying to say to you is that seeing as how this company will have lots of competition, not just from MRC and Nosler like you suggest but also Kimber and Forbes. While the LAW rifle may be a pound heavier it will still be considered by the same folks who are shopping any of the above listed brands. The main point that folks here are trying to make, is that Reed came here to tell us, part of his prospective market, about this new offering. Folks around here are telling him, before these rifles are standardized and assembled which if he plays it right could get him more sales, what they want. They want twist, fast twist. It won't hurt a damn thing to have more twist than needed for old style bullets and those that want to would be able to sling 115s.
If twist wasn't listed on their website guys like you would never know the difference. But real rifle looneys, who shoot and experiment with something other than factory CoreLokts, would soon find out that they were twisted for ping pong balls. When they found out it would end up on the Fire, and on down the road to Google search results so that anyone who is thinking of buying one and gives achit will see it and look to buy something else. If I was bringing a new design to the market and advertising it online, I'd damn sure be willing to measure COL and tell folks how it was going to be throated.
This is free R&D for this company, with people who shoot more than a half box a year to check zero on a road sign, giving him feedback on features that will help make his product appeal to a larger market without alienating the other marketshare that doesn't care. Not one single suggestion listed herein will cost them any extra money to implement aside from possibly the bottom metal suggestion.
PS. Boddington is not an engineer nor a gunsmith as far as I know. He may have killed a bunch of critters but he also claimed that cartridges such as the 270 and 06 were marginal for larger than whitetail deer. The man sells his opinion and while I'm not flat out saying his opinion can be bought off, one has to remember that it is for sale.
I think what people are trying to say to you is that seeing as how this company will have lots of competition, not just from MRC and Nosler like you suggest but also Kimber and Forbes. While the LAW rifle may be a pound heavier it will still be considered by the same folks who are shopping any of the above listed brands. The main point that folks here are trying to make, is that Reed came here to tell us, part of his prospective market, about this new offering. Folks around here are telling him, before these rifles are standardized and assembled which if he plays it right could get him more sales, what they want. They want twist, fast twist. It won't hurt a damn thing to have more twist than needed for old style bullets and those that want to would be able to sling 115s.
If twist wasn't listed on their website guys like you would never know the difference. But real rifle looneys, who shoot and experiment with something other than factory CoreLokts, would soon find out that they were twisted for ping pong balls. When they found out it would end up on the Fire, and on down the road to Google search results so that anyone who is thinking of buying one and gives achit will see it and look to buy something else. If I was bringing a new design to the market and advertising it online, I'd damn sure be willing to measure COL and tell folks how it was going to be throated.
This is free R&D for this company, with people who shoot more than a half box a year to check zero on a road sign, giving him feedback on features that will help make his product appeal to a larger market without alienating the other marketshare that doesn't care. Not one single suggestion listed herein will cost them any extra money to implement aside from possibly the bottom metal suggestion.
I want an action based around a 223AI, i.e "short" with a mag well that will fit long/heavy for caliber bullets. a 20" fast twist barrel heavy sporter contour, and a detachable mag (two types - a flush mag that holds 2 or 3, and a bigger one for really getting down)
I'll not be pre-ordering anything. The last time I did that was with a company panhandling online to get the Montana Rifleman action going and I took it in the shorts with lie after lie.
Yes, it's good to see someone soliciting ideas for their product, I wish nothing but luck for them.
I also see a few giving lots of reach arounds for something they've never held/touched/shot, etc, which is humorous to watch.
JasonH, go and look at how many members are on this site. It has the most of any gun forum on the web that I visit by a huge margin. And if you don't think people will by stuff that is done right, think again. Matter of fact I just saw 50 rifles spec'd right in a custom order from kimber sell in less than two days on another forum. The order isn't finalized yet, but I don't forsee many backing out of their word on that one. I'm more than willing to give one of these rifles a go, but if I can't shoot the bullets I want to run, there's no point. Why give a great accuracy guarantee and not twist it for the bullets used where that accuracy will matter. A 1.5 moa rifle will kill a lot of stuff to 300 yards no problem shooting ping pong balls.
As far as the gun writers and tv show hosts go. You said it yourself. They have to pay the bills. So you are never going to get a 100% real review from 99% of them. I prefer to stay in my career field, run my side business with my wife, and buy/build stuff as I see fit. Not pimp somebody else's [bleep] up for a few dollars and some free ammo.
I just read through the entire thread for the first time. It sure was easy to tell those who have never shot faster twisted rifles in a given caliber.
One of my questions for Paul is: why are manufacturers afraid to go to with faster twists when indications are they are wanted and they do work for all bullet weights, light to heavy. As stated before, bullets are getting longer, not shorter, for a given weight. I have played with faster twists in several sub-30 caliber cartridges for years and have not found a reason to not go with a faster twist barrel with any of the cartridges I have used for hunting at what are perceived as normal hunting distances.
I too hope all goes well with Legendary Arms Works' endeavor.....
People that actually shoot understand the merits of high bc bullets, and hence the needed twist.
A custom 243 with a 10 -or- 9 twist is about as awesome as a scope with a mil reticle and moa controls. Where do gun companies and optics companies get their engineers? PETA?
That appeared to be from the gunwriter range day they have before SHOT. There were probably a ton of people on the line firing various new offerings and they only get a limited amount time to handle the guns and then it's on down the line to the next manufacturer.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
I've dropped more than the cost of a LAW on rifles before (and handguns) and will do so again, when one fits the parameters I want or when I have (another) built to purpose.
Guns and Ammo? They'll write up a glowing report about any turd that someone pays them to review. Boddington has merit, but so does John Barsness, and Steve Timm, and a host of other writers on this forum. You pegged it though, on the press/media, they won't get paid and make their budgets if they don't pimp the wares of whomever is paying them. That's why I will take the word of UNPAID, known shooters over the PAID press any day and every day.
First, I think its great that we are seeing an interesting approach in a new rifle - a hybrid of the custom rifle many make/buy - think good action plus an aftermarket stock. Eg Model 70 for 700/800 plus a mcmillan for 500/600.
Like many I spend a lot of time on forums looking for rifles. I'm partial to CRF so I generally look for a model 70 with a nice aftermarket stock and, ideally, a good barrel but would be fine with a nice stock and factory barreled action. LAW seems to be providing this plus a better trigger and, likely, a better barrel than most factory rifles. Seems like a great start to me. Bottom metal does look a bit clunky, but most companies change their products over time to make them better.
While I agree with the feedback on twist rates, I'm impressed with the change to the .243 and, like others, think we should give these guys a chance to get going and iterate their product. They are trying to provide a high quality rifle for a good value - IMHO we should all be cheering them on - why would any of us not want another rifle option - especially one trying to hit the spot between factory and synthetic customs - no downside to any of us, all upside if they are successful in building a great rifle.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by 10generation
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
My feelings as well. How many companies come onto a forum not only to announce a new product, but take the time (and grief) to listen to potential buyers, answer questions and take feedback honestly with a willingness to make changes if necessary ? I think maybe Forbes did but not sure. Kimber ? Nope.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Any gun manufacturer that has had to re-tool has been going to faster twisted barrels. Slow twists are being phased out.
It only makes sense to advise a new company to do same from the jump.
It will help them make money. Fast twist = more sales. Slow twist = less sales.
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
They wouldn't care if the twist rate was done faster, either. The faster twist in 6mm and .22, especially, wouldn't hurt anything and could only help in allowing the use of heavier, higher BC bullets.
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
I'm happy to see more quality rifles coming to the market and wish them luck. I don't see a problem with a single announcement by a new manufacturer. But while we're hammering away on twist rates, how about 3 different twist rates for 4 different .284 bores? That doesn't seem very efficient from a manufacturing standpoint. Stick a 9 on all of them and call it a day.
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
A manufacturer who actually asks because he plans to incorporate what the people he asked says. Otherwise he is just trying to get some cheap advertising; and that to the wrong crowd.
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
A manufacturer who actually asks because he plans to incorporate what the people he asked says. Otherwise he is just trying to get some cheap advertising; and that to the wrong crowd.
DingKchunt,
You sorry,sorry,sorry...STUPID fhuqking piece of schit! Bless your heart!!!
The OP is as fhuqking SRTUPID as you and both you DUMB Kchunts are oblivious to looooooonnngggggg established FACTS. Hint. Laughing!!!
The 1903 was wearing a 1-10" spout at inception. Though a 1-12" 20" long 308Win tube will pinwheel 208A-Max at sealevel,when supersonic. Hint. Laughing!!!
These STUPID fhuqkers put 1-12" spouts on their 22-250. Mebbe you and Brad can guess(if only because you HAVE to),which of these will hit headfirst?!?
Or perhaps muse 6mm's?!? Laughing!
Cheer up..I don't shoot any of 'em either,except for ALL of 'em. Hint. laughing!!!
I'll yet again feign my "suprise",that the dumbfhuqking Drooling OP skirted ALL things The Rifle and Windows keep getting licked. Laughing!
COAL constraints and throat geometry matter,to them with a clue.
RE-hint!!!!!
Wowwwwwwwwwwww.
Ooopsie..the Garand was 1-10" on inception too.
My bad.
Laughing!!!!!
Mebbe send an EMERGENCY Coke-bottle PM and get Shrapnel to "help".
Fhuqking LAUGHING!!!!..............
Cheer up...a 1-10" Liljee SAAMI 7-08 will pinwheel 162A-Max to 1200yds and beyond,despite The Milford Sea Level. Hint.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015
So got an email from Hope yesterday... apparently you (LAW) don't inlet your M70 stocks for the factory 1-piece bottom metal.
Since that's the only metal used on M70's since around 2005 or a bit earlier (both the last of the CT M70's and newer SC made ones) it seems a shame to lose such a large portion of the market.
I find it difficult to believe you all can't set up for a 1-piece inlet...
I find it hard to believe how little business sense you have Brad. Mr. Reed has made this so clear that a [bleep] could understand what apparently is going right over your head. Stocks will be made to supply their new rifles first. After that, they'll get to the aftermarket segment. Mark Bansner made most of his customs in the beginning around Remington actions and then went with to the custom clones (Nesika's IIRC) for most of his builds and mod 70's for a dangerous game model, again IIRC. The name of this venture is Legendary Arms Works, not Legends in their own Minds Works. I'm betting that no matter what they make available down the road, you'll still be asking questions and won't be blowing the dust off your credit card to place an order regardless of what they make available.
I'm not that flexible and I have decent resources available to satisfy those needs. But geeeze Bradley how many times in how many threads did you birddog this guy for the weight of their stocks ? How many times did you ask him how they were made when he made it very clear that they were made the same way Mark Bansner made them but increased the volume ? The guy (Reed) comes here to #1 announce the product and #2 answer questions and even takes the suggestions seriously enough to make changes (twist rates) and your way of showing your appreciation is to ankle bite the guy day after day about production methods and stamp your little feet until you got an answer to your question. I probably won't sleep tonight knowing a person of your caliber told me to go phhuck myself.
JasonH, go and look at how many members are on this site. It has the most of any gun forum on the web that I visit by a huge margin. And if you don't think people will by stuff that is done right, think again. Matter of fact I just saw 50 rifles spec'd right in a custom order from kimber sell in less than two days on another forum. The order isn't finalized yet, but I don't forsee many backing out of their word on that one. I'm more than willing to give one of these rifles a go, but if I can't shoot the bullets I want to run, there's no point. Why give a great accuracy guarantee and not twist it for the bullets used where that accuracy will matter. A 1.5 moa rifle will kill a lot of stuff to 300 yards no problem shooting ping pong balls.
As far as the gun writers and tv show hosts go. You said it yourself. They have to pay the bills. So you are never going to get a 100% real review from 99% of them. I prefer to stay in my career field, run my side business with my wife, and buy/build stuff as I see fit. Not pimp somebody else's [bleep] up for a few dollars and some free ammo.
Also, any chance of having a prototype at the Great Outdoor Show in Harrisburg next week?
They have a booth at the show and I'm heading out there next week. If I see Paul Reed there, I'm going to walk right up to him and ask him....."what's the twist rate in this rifle" just to see his reaction...........
I'm quite seriously considering it; twist rate or not. The barrels can get changed. For the price, if it is what they say it is, even with a barrel change it's a damned good deal.
Still don't know how they are throated in relationship to mag constraints. With the right twist and ample room in mag for the right bullets I would entertain purchasing one inspite of the stock
My apologies for the delayed responses, it has been hard to keep up with all the postings on the various forums as well as make a few rifles! I just realized that my last posting update was way back on page 6. We greatly appreciate all the feedback, input, criticism and comments on our rifles. Passion with a bit of Poison at times is the way I would describe this thread and the number of responses is almost overwhelming to us at the company. I hope we can be civil with each other and those who offer up poison will be ignored by us I suspect. I will try to catch up with the questions and comments but it might take me a day or so...
Blackbrush: Your question about the design and construction of the bolt and bolt head is a valid one and an astute observation. My short answer is that it is safe but of course you want facts. I am in the process of gathering some engineering data and information that I will provide to you shortly, just be a bit patient with my timing. If you look at some other photo angles of the bolt you will see that despite the cuts there is still a substantial amount of material on the lugs and it is not a one lug configuration. I am trying to get some other photos together to post on the Website to allow shooters to see it...please stay tuned.
Twist Rates: Yes, we got the message, twist rates are important of certainly to this group of shooters. It is a bit of a challenge to configure barrels and twist rates that will satisfy everybody. The shooter's on this forum are more advanced in their skills and shooting requirements when compare it to the average hunter who really doesn't pay attention to twist rates. For us, trying to keep our rifles at a price point that is competitive, it is difficult to offer a variety of options. I will say in general we are making an effort overall to move to faster twists. We will be looking at each caliber chambering again with an eye to “modernize" the twist rates more. As I stated in an earlier posting, we will be reestablishing our custom business, but probably not until late 2015 or early 2016. There the sky is the limit. The information that all of you are providing has been very helpful. Shortactionsmoker has a pretty good suggestion to market to the rifle guys, the others won't know the difference or care.
Taylorforce1: your observation about the industry moving towards sub $500 rifles your spot on. We call it “the race to the bottom". We wonder where it will end. I am not suggesting that those rifles don't have a purpose, but that is not where we want to be with our rifles.
Tedthorn: thanks for your comments. I guess I would say “different strokes, for different folks" when it comes to our action configuration and the sharp edges you refer to. I think it makes the rifle look distinctive but at the same time still comfortable to carry in the hand. Your point about the scope base hanging over the rear action bridge is a valid one. Part of the reason is the size and configuration of the Talley style base and weaver style bases that we are using. In reality the real issue is the length of the rear receiver bridge is generally shorter than most other rifles. I will take that suggestion back to Mark and the team and see if we can make a modification. With regard to the bolt handle welding, that is a good comment but TIG welding is a bit harder to do and can be more expensive. We have tested the bolt handles under significant stress and have been satisfied with their strength. However if you are a handloader who likes to run in the world of maximum pressure, and end up sticking a bolt shut, we can't guarantee it when you whack at it with a 2x4! For normal hunting and shooting use the bolt handles have held up well. 28 Nosler...looks like an interesting cartridge and new can be good...not going to say anymore to avoid divulging company secrets. With regard to bottom metal, no immediate plans for a blind magazine. I personally don't like them but understand that there is a desire for that in the market.
Skane: Nope, not Hawkins bottom metal but one of equal quality. You are correct on the blind magazine issue...it seems to be a true split down the middle.
Steelhead, tedtthorn: Regarding the stock "2x4 look" that you suggest is perhaps the way the picture is configures. Yes the stock does have a squarish flat bottom and it sits well in the bags but at the same time feels well and carries well. This design has been on Mark's stocks for over 20 years and has been widely accepted. I suggest reserving judgment until you can get one in your hand. Ted-I'll take that bet, I don't think you carry the gun that far up on the forearm of the stock but rather at the floorplate where it is slightly rounded. They feel well in the hand. I used a Big Five in Mozambique on a buffalo hunt last September and carried it for 10 days and never once felt it was uncomfortable.
JasonH: You are correct with regard to prices. We took pretty hard look at the market and you see two "peaks" one under $500 and the other over ~$2500. Considering a Winchester Model 70 is selling in the $1100 to $1200 range we think we have a market price point that is attractive considering the features offered. And you are correct, we are spoiled in the US with our options...but I submit that there is one rifle out there that will make you happy
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Tedthorn: The bottom metal pocket is both cut and molded, the fit is excellent IMO. Utter the phrase “Injection Molded” and that will get you fired at LAW after Mark tears you a new one. Okay, no more company secrets...
RDfinn: $20K for a mold...I wish! I had no idea what was involved to make a stock and I'll bet most others would be surprised too. Knowing what I know makes our rifles an even better value IMO.
Tedthorn: You are absolutely right on, I am overwhelmed at the amount of advice we have received from this and other forums. I can't keep up and of course not all of it is actionable for us but the test bed is something unique to our sport I suspect. Maybe the car guys get as passionate but for us in the gun industry we can't even begin to put a value on the advice...thanks again to all.
Steelhead: COAL and mag box information...Heard it, I just put the final touches of an Action Specification Sheet and it will be up on the LAW Website next week in the Model 704 Action Specs link here: http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/704-action/. It should give all the information people want. Yes, looking at the 7mm cartridge twists...we chose the industry accepted standards but are reviewing them
Tedthorn/taylorforce: Regarding the statement: This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in Yonkers already builds for 500 less.... you refer to a Kimber. I have one in our shop and have compared them side by side...not even close on many fronts, stock is not as comfortable to me, not Cerakoted etc. Melvin Forbes is a great gunsmith with tremendous experience and he and Mark are friends but it is a push feed rifle.
JasonH: Correct, we are not marketing an ultra light rifle but rather a sporter rifle and you are correct in our competitive environment being Nosler and perhaps a Montana. With most of the other rifles the separator is the controlled round feed action.
10thgeneration/thekid/fosteology/rwe: As I stated above, we appreciate the advice and yes it is equivalent to an R&D department. We are listening, may not mean we can act on everything though. And yes I’d like to think it takes balls to come here and “run the gauntlet” but I will say that the response has been at least 90% positive constructive criticism for the forum both publicly and in PMs. There are some members who should be sent to their room without milk and cookies however…
Moosemike: We will be at the Great American Outdoor Show in booth 457. Please stop by and introduce yourself.
Mmgravy: I don’t think we are “afraid” of changing twists but we are taking both a measured and fact based approach to producing rifles that will appeal to most shooters. I’m not saying we are trying to make our rifles “generic” but each change is being very well researched and thought out primarily because changes translate to one thing-expense. I think we have shown that we are adaptable at LAW. We heard the message-reconsider your twist rates.
Regarding the Ron Spomer video: Jesus guys, before you go off the rails further please take a breath, get a glass of single malt and relax … Yes the commentary may seem misleading, but here are the FACTS. SHOT Show range day is huge amount of activity for many gun companies. Our team was set up and was shooting at a steel gong at 500 yards. Ron shot about midway through the day and the gong was obliterated with hits (yes I said hits at 500 yards) making it hard to determine a group. It was not possible to go downrange, nor permitted and no there was no snow, just bullets flying around! And yes there were optics there and yes there was an attempt to spot the gong but after so much shooting it was not truly possible to judge a group. I thought I remember someone here posting that they were at the Range Day event so perhaps they would corroborate my summary. The event was really meant to allow the writers and dealers to shoot the rifle a bit, get familiar with the fit, feel and finish not an extensive testing for accuracy. That will come later when they rifles in the hands at their home ranges. Currently there are at least three articles in the works by writers and those will be more detailed. Really the SHOT Show range day is more akin to a beauty pageant than a full blown rifle test. There is so much activity going on that all writers and dealers get to do is quick review. Spomer is a man of high ethics and a good writer IMO with boundless energy and I think he was impressed with the gun. Deflave….an unemployed alcoholic with a Zeiss spotter and camera….maybe you should replace your milk carton with beverage that is a little more calming
Ringman: We are trying to answer questions, get feedback and be transparent. As for my postings just being a commercial to get cheap advertising, I think that would be insulting for me to do that to the Forum members. No question that we want to sell guns, we probably could spend our money on the typical advertising avenues with less effort but that is not the goal. I think I’ve shown that LAW is giving in return for getting. If the moderator views this as advertising they always have the option to remove the thread but that has not happened on any of the forums where I have been commenting.
Brad: Hope told me about the communication with you and I’m sorry that we can’t immediately fulfill your needs for a M70 configuration you seek. As I said in earlier posts nearly all of our efforts in stock making are being devoted to the M704 rifles and we “fill in” as we can on the secondary market. Yes the market is probably strong for a variety of rifle fits, I think at last count we had 35 variations in house. Yes we can set up to fit that M70 and probably will hopefully in the near future. I would submit however that you would be aghast if I told you the amount of effort and finances to do one rifle stock mold…not done overnight.
Gents, Let’s try to keep the thread positive or I will be forced to send some of you guys to detention
RDFinn: Yep, as I said above we will be at the Great American Outdoor Show booth 457. I will be there towards the end of the show with Craig at our booth. Please visit and introduce yourself. If you ask me “what is the twist rate on this rifle” my answer will be “Oh, all our guns are twisted fast, they shoot any bullet you can find”
I’ll end this long winded response again with a genuine “Thank You” to the forum for the feedback…I gotta go help make a rifle.
I would submit however that you would be aghast if I told you the amount of effort and finances to do one rifle stock mold…not done overnight.
I know what it costs for the mold so I wouldn't be "aghast"... milling out the bottom a bit more for 1-piece bottom metal vs. 2 piece doesn't require a new mold, it just requires milling it out differently. Sheesh. CNC can be programmed for that.
Bansners/High Tech did a 1-piece M70 inlet for me summer of 2012, but for some reason won't do it now. Obviously it doesn't take a new mold.
No worries, I have a McMillan on order instead.
Thanks.
PS, I wish you all the best with LAW... if you're able to deliver at the quoted prices I think you'll have a winner. Looks like a lot of rifle for the money.
I've been following this thread with interest. I don't know Reed but do know Mark Bansner,at least as a result of quite a few phone conversations, through mutual aquaintances,and as a result of having owned at least 1/2 dozen of his stocks.Mark not only knows rifles but is an experienced BG hunter as well, with as much or more experience as the majority of people posting on here.
I am not sure which of us owned one first but RinB and I have been using Bansner stocks going back quite a few years. I know i was first in my circle of friends in this area to have Mark's shop stock a rifle, but a good many more were built following my first one.I know where there are several in use right now on friends rifles and I would put the number at easily over 20 stock jobs on a variety of rifles.For some guys these have been "lifetime" rifles, taken everywhere from Newfoundland to Africa to Alaska and back without a hitch.
My own "favorite" was a M70 in 7 RM with Bansner stock that I hunted everywhere out west and in Canada for several years before I shot out the barrel (a 9 twist Krieger) that never changed POI in any fashion as long as I owned it. I was always impressed with the durability and reliability of the good bedding job that Tom and Clay at Mark's shop did on those rifles....in all that time the guard screws never even loosened.Others I have owned and shot have been of the same level of quality and accuracy.
Friends and I have lugged the rifles everywhere; never heard any comments about a Bansner stock being squared off too much,or uncomfortable to carry,or too heavy, or anything else remotely similar to those comments.
As to the actions I don't have any experience using them but have handled one Ed Brown rifle built for an acquaintance in the Peace River region of Alberta. The rifle was shipped to my LGS for transfer to Canada; the owner of the shop and I both hunted with the same outfitter,and he was transporting the rifle to Alberta.The action was very high quality...a long step above any Kimber or M70 Classic,and a had a silky smoothness to its workings reminiscent of a Mannlicher Shoenauer...it was that smooth and well made.
If the rifle were a "one lug" design, it's news to me since the action was used for all standard and magnum cartridges including the WSM line,loaded by the factories to 65,000 psi. so, having Reed jump through hoops to "prove" an already proven two lug actions design seems like a waste of the guy's time.
I don't know if LAW will be giving them the same level of finish as the original Ed Brown action but if they do anyone would have to be impressed. I liked it well enough that I wanted one myself; never got around to it. The rifle that went to Alberta was used by the owner up there with complete satisfaction...have not been in touch in a few years but spoke with him when I hunted up there and he and already shot a lot of game with it, and he considered it ideal for the game hunted in that country...mule, whitetail deer, black bear, moose, elk etc.
I would not expect the LAW to be as light as a Kimber,a nice feature that I like myself about Kimbers, but dramatically over played in importance.The twist thing I won't comment on except to say I like them spun faster myself if the bullet is built to take the torque,but not everyone chooses bullets for BG hunting based on BC alone;and many great hunting(not target) bullets do just fine with standard twists. YMMV.
The gist of all this is that Mark Bansner likely knows his way around BG rifles better than most;(certainly more than most of us on here) and knows how to build a rifle that will stand up to most of the demands dished out for real, not imagined, BG hunting. I don't know how these LAW rifles will turn out but in my eyes Mark's reputation precedes him and I bet they will be a good dependable piece of gear. I would not mind getting my hands on one myself if I could figure out what caliber I'd like.
I really don't need very much of anything right now.
Wish Reed and Mark best of luck with the new venture.
I got my first Bansner stock in 2004 for an M70. I never found it "squared off" and it and the Kimber Montana are the best fitting stocks for me and my build. It does retain a bit too much beef in the forearm for a no.1 contour, but that's a minor nit pick. It carries and balance superbly.
Here's that first High Tech stocked M70 on its maiden voyage:
But regarding LAW rifles, I sure don't understand the color they chose for "The Closer"... fugly! They call it "grey" but it's showing as tan with black specks.
Someone there must be color blind to pick such a color for a mass-sale rifle...
It takes a lot of courage to start a new rifle manufacturing company these days, especially one that is trying to build a semi-custom rifle at a popular price point. Good luck on that.
I build my own rifles on Savage Precision Target Actions, Remington 700 and now 783 actions. While primarily I build for varmint hunting, I also just like to experiment. One thing I have learned from actual shooting tests of various barrel twist rates, is that faster is better across the board. Not only that, all one needs to do is measure the length of a given bullet and plug the data into a twist calculator to obtain the desired twist. Here are two twist calculators and one ballistic calculator:
As for .243" (6mm) bullets, what I discovered is that all the old ideas are completely wrong in light of the new monolithic copper expanding bullets and the compressed copper/tin compressed core jacketed frangible bullets. For example the 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade when fired in a 6mm PPC with a "standard" 1:14" twist would only occasionally hit a 100 yard target, and when they did they were completely sideways. So, without using a twist calculator, I followed the bullet manufacturer's recommendation of a 1:10" twist and ordered a corresponding Shilen barrel. That twist stabilized the bullet, but groups were still running around 1.5" or larger.
So I plugged the bullet data into a calculator and found the 1:10" twist was marginal for stabilizing that long (0.974") and light weight (62 grain) bullet. The calculator revealed that a 1:8" twist would stabilize the bullet at all velocities. A new 1:8" twist barrel chambered for the .243 WSSM shot ten round groups between 0.185" and 0.300" depending on conditions. I want the resulting Stability Factor to be at least 1.5 and closer to 2.0 if possible, in this case the 62 grain Varmint Grenade at 3,580 fps returned a Stability factor of 1.898, good to go.
This also proved true for the .224" regardless of cartridge. 1:10" Twist did not provide the degree of accuracy I was looking for in the .22-250 Remington with the 50 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade, but a 1"9" twist worked across all cartridges from the aforementioned .22-250 Remington, its Ackley Improved version, and the .223 Remington. It also stabilized the lighter Nosler 40 grain BT Lead Free and the Nosler 69 grain Custom Competition Bullet, as well as any other I worked up loads for.
So now my standard .243" twist is 1:8". And I use the 1:9" twist for all .224" applications, except a 1:8" twist for AR-15's with heavy bullets. I currently have two 1:8" twist barrels in the works for the 6mm PPC (Brux) and 6mm BR Norma (Kreiger), which should prove the application from the little PPC to the larger .243 WSSM.
It was also discovered that the 1:12" factory twist for .204 Ruger was just too slow. It was the reason that some had poor performance with 39 grain plus bullets. I began testing with a 1:8.5" twist especially for Berger's 50 grain HPBT .204 bullet. While the bullet shot consistently in the 0.5" range for ten shots, Berger discontinued it in favor of the 55 grain HPBT bullet. Still, that 1:8.5" twist kept the groups under 1" and with a bit of load tweaking would have probably done better.
That 1:8.5" twist also shot the 26 grain Varmint Grenade in the .25" class, and at 4,110 fps. I had a Hart barrel made for an AR-15 build with a heavy contour 1:9" twist barrel, that shoots Hornady's 24 grain .204 NTX BT bullet at 3,900 fps well under .5". It also handles every various brand conventional bullet similarly. So that now my standard twist for the .204 Ruger is 1:9".
So far all the supposed drawbacks of fast twists imagined by the pundits, bullets coming apart from too much spin, excessive spin drift, etc., have not shown up. So I recommend if we are to err in selecting a twist rate, err on the side of faster rather than slower - because nothing will make a twist that is too slow work optimally.
I have not seen the color......course I'm the wrong one to ask....I'll hunt them with no paint LOL!
Bob responding to you and to anyone/no one.
Not sure what's going on with my camfire settings... should have shown responding to you but didn't. Weird. Also all my reponses are going into "wathced topics"... a new and wierd turn of events.
BTW, you and Dober hunt them "raw"... had his over at the house this week to fiddle with... it doesn't get much more "Dober" than this... it'll definitely frighten game being blue and all :
Skane, one reason I like the Banser stock so much is its wonderfully straight comb. I also think it has enough "beef" to hold onto to shoot well... not as thick as a chopped glass B&C stock, but not as thin as a, say, Brown or McMillan Compact.
Also, for a pre-64 m70, it has a cheekpiece which definitely helps acquire the typically higher mounted scope of a pre-64.
Thank you Paul for taking the time to answer so many questions from a very tough crowd, you're a brave man. The rifle seems to be very well thought out and looks to have the qualities to do nicely in today's market.
As usual you're observations are spot on Bob. 95% of hunters will be buying the ammo for these rifles and will pick "hunting" bullets in their favorite factory brand. They wouldn't know the difference between a BC or a STD and wouldn't care as probably 99% of game taken every year is under 300 yrds......well under that in fact. When I included the Kimber Montana as a competitor, it was strictly based on a price point and to be perfectly honest Kimber pretty much owns the ultra light market for what they offer at their price point. If LAW markets this rifle correctly and with a lot of visibility, they are going to do well. When Ed Brown offered the rifle, it came with a price tag of over 3K IIRC. These guys are able to produce them in volume with a good stock, as evidenced here already, and an accuracy guarantee to boot for half the price.
Your ? was not ignored he mentioned the magazine constraints would be listed on the website next week!
I meant it in the welcoming DeFlave context If twists and mag contraints are copacetic they will be a good package I realize its not a full blown custom but these things are mandatory Some of the other things are a trade off that may not be exactly what I like but not a deal breaker
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Reed, lightweight projectiles are not adversely affected by a faster twist. The adversity is for heavy/long projectiles trying to stabilize via a slow twist. Twisting fast will sell you more rifles, simple as that. Buy a few custom tubes and do a test for yourself. This sort of testing should be pretty cheap when you consider the potential benefit. Research is fun!
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Paul
With the 6mm's no, the .224's, yes.
The drawback to the faster twists is that some of the bullets designed to rapidly expand at low velocity (Hornady SX as an example) will come unglued in faster twists.
There may be some .243 caliber bullets that meet this criteria also, but I can't think of any that are being manufactured currently.
The 1-8" twist in .243's and .224's is not on the extreme end of the shooting community wishes. Most of the shooting community wouldn't know a twist rate from a dildddo. As has been stated, you're gonna lock that side of the market up regardless. It's the dickheads (me) you need to pursue.
Lighter/shorter bullets don't suffer from fast twists. Yes the rifle may not care for certain bullets, but it's not twist related.
Twist them more faster. If it doesn't work out well I will buy you a beer. During happy hour. If you're a lady. On lady's night.
In the 243, especially for a hunting (non varmint) rifle, there is zero downside to a 1:8. My preferred 6mm bullet is the 105 berger, which won't work in a 1:9 but will in a 1:8. My general opinion is this- the crowd that these rifles cater to is one of more serious hunters, who are more likely aware of what the market offers and potential that is available in bullet selection for various chamberings. These are not the guys slumming remington 770s with the cheapest box o ammo walmart offers. We know the difference, and a 243 twist of 1:8 will almost certainly guarantee you sales that something slower will not. You have a nice action, trigger, stock and bottom metal. But to those of use that care, a good barrel, properly twisted, is the most important piece of the puzzle.
Though I'm not nearly as experienced as most people on this forum I will say this company has my attention. I'm glad more attention is being paid to the 1,000 - 2,000$ range lately. I personally love the shift the past few years to "budget" rifles and have been very impressed by their functioning. I bought a Marlin XS7 in 7mm 08 right out of college because I wanted a new rifle and it was all I could afford. Overall I was very impressed with it though for a variety or reasons I traded it in for a T/C Venture in .270.
I bought both as a stop gap knowing that I would buy a "better rifle" when I had the money. The past three years I have been searching for this rifle but haven't pulled the trigger yet as nothing has "wowed" me. I love that the LAW closer is mid weight, cerakoted stainless, has a Timeney Trigger and a three position safety. I also love the company representatives response to all the posts here. He was very respectful and professional but didn't just appease everyone with that "customer is always right" BS I hate.
However, before I order one I want to see 1. Consistency - I want to see a bunch of people reporting at least MOA accuracy and hopefully close to .5 MOA accuracy out of the box with factory Loads. I don't want to see MOA after recrowning, modifying mag box, giving up on recrown job and then barreling and then trying 1,000 handloads. 2. Actual Street Price - Who pays MSRP anymore? I wonder what the Gunbroker/BUDS price will be.... 1200 for the closer? 3. Customer Service - Maybe I am entitled but if I buy a rifle for well over a grand and if it doesn't shoot least 1.5 MOA with one out of 4 quality factory loads, or doesn't feed etc. I want to call customer service, ship it to them and get back a rifle that does the above.
In summary I've been looking for a cerakoted stainless steel, very smooth, sub-MOA sporter weight rifle to be my "does everything rifle" and believe this may be it. However, a part of me also wants to simply order a clearance XS7 stainless. Sorry for long post.
I have not seen the color......course I'm the wrong one to ask....I'll hunt them with no paint LOL!
Bob responding to you and to anyone/no one.
Not sure what's going on with my camfire settings... should have shown responding to you but didn't. Weird. Also all my reponses are going into "wathced topics"... a new and wierd turn of events.
BTW, you and Dober hunt them "raw"... had his over at the house this week to fiddle with... it doesn't get much more "Dober" than this... it'll definitely frighten game being blue and all :
Brad that does't look too bad....the blue and all. We used to fill the holes in the Brown Precision blanks, sand off the seams,and hunt them like that.
No paint....man were they ugly. After awhile it would get on a guys nerves and we'd grab a can of spray paint.
I used to joke with friends that I'd like to put a skull and cross bones on one of mine for giggles. It would be years before I found out some guy in Alaska beat me to it.
My Brown stock got a black spray can job right before deer season, with the thought that I would fix the bedding and paint later. 6 years later I sanded the rough spots down to the bondo and gelcoat and then got sidetracked. Put it back together and hunted, 10 years later I finally finished it. I kinda miss the gelcoat, bondo black spray look. It was fun to tell someone I have the ugliest rifle you ever saw, and then have them agree.
Really Calvin? And please explain to us why you havent started your own company since apparently you know so much about the firearms business? Certainly you aren't saying that you know more than Mark Bansner? Perhaps LAW should offer you a job? What do you say Reed?
If you go look at the Winchester website, their twist rate is 1:10 for .243 model 70's.......I guess they are just a bunch of dumb [bleep] too huh? Clearly it should be mandatory for all rifle manufacturers to consult members of this website before they develop their firearms.
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Have either one of you had your hands on a South Carolina manufactured or Portuguese Winchester? Because I will agree that the last few years they were made in New Haven they were pretty pathetic. However the South Carolina made Jack O'Connor tribute that I have is one awesome rifle. And the Portuguese .243 Super Grade I just bought might be just a bit nicer than the South Carolina rifles I've seen.
If you go look at the Winchester website, their twist rate is 1:10 for .243 model 70's.......I guess they are just a bunch of dumb [bleep] too huh? Clearly it should be mandatory for all rifle manufacturers to consult members of this website before they develop their firearms.
We've been over this already.
The 10 twist 243 sucks for high BC bullets. Normal saps don't shoot high BC bullets so they don't care. Guys who like to shoot longer range want to shoot high BC bullets therefore they need a tighter twist. If LAW were to use a tighter twist it would ADD to the number of people interested in their products. And Joe Schmoe wouldn't know or care while he was launching pingpong balls and round noses out of his fast twist barrel. 8 twist barrel blanks cost the same as 10 twist blanks do, I know I order them on a weekly basis.
Therefore in summary, if they increase the twist rates they offer LAW would be increasing their customer base for no added investment. Nobody gets hurt, everybody wins. LAW, Joe Schmoe, and the fast twist guys all get what they want. There is NO downside! This is simple effing math here. You're making this way to hard. The company man wanted input and he's getting it.
That's why Winchester is a bunch of idiots. They could be selling even more rifles. I mean, the Winchester brand has only transferred ownership like four times, so clearly they are the litmus for how to run a business.
I guess I just don't understand why a few folks made such a big deal over the twist rates from the very beginning. If you don't like the way LAW builds rifles, aren't there plenty of other choices?
Really Calvin? And please explain to us why you havent started your own company since apparently you know so much about the firearms business? Certainly you aren't saying that you know more than Mark Bansner? Perhaps LAW should offer you a job? What do you say Reed?
If you go look at the Winchester website, their twist rate is 1:10 for .243 model 70's.......I guess they are just a bunch of dumb [bleep] too huh? Clearly it should be mandatory for all rifle manufacturers to consult members of this website before they develop their firearms.
There's always one that destroys the 'even a blind squirrel..' theory.
I guess I just don't understand why a few folks made such a big deal over the twist rates from the very beginning. If you don't like the way LAW builds rifles, aren't there plenty of other choices?
Do you dip [bleep] think that the majority of the shooting and hunting public sits in their basements handloading and obsessing over the twist rates in their rifle? If that's your hobby fine, but you are in a small minority.
As for the super grade, haven't scoped it and shot it yet. If it will put them into 1-1.5 inches at 100 yards, it will be all i ever need to hunt with. I will find one load that shoots good and leave it alone. Who cares about anything other than that? We aren't talking about benchrest or match rifles here. There are plenty of those to be had elsewhere if that is what you are after.
Steelhead, just wondering what you retired from? Underwater basketweaving?
Have either one of you had your hands on a South Carolina manufactured or Portuguese Winchester? Because I will agree that the last few years they were made in New Haven they were pretty pathetic. However the South Carolina made Jack O'Connor tribute that I have is one awesome rifle. And the Portuguese .243 Super Grade I just bought might be just a bit nicer than the South Carolina rifles I've seen.
Yes. In fact I have a Portuguese EW for the time being.
But for the most part M70's are just too portly to get my interest.
I have no interest in a rifle pushing 9lb naked, let alone one that is 9lb. scoped and loaded.
So just because they are "too portly" for your interest, you condemn the entire company as unworthy........you ever stop to think that different people have different tastes? That seems to be a recurring theme on this forum.
WhelenAway, here's a little secret for you.......most buyers ARE NOT paying attention to the twist rate. I understand that you and a couple of other folks live in a small world and you think that everyone is as crazy about this stuff as you are.....but that simply isn't the case. Most people have a life outside the reloading bench and technical manuals. They want nice guns that shoot reasonably well......that is all.
As far as weight, there is an awful lot of stand hunting done in the United states these days, and an awful lot of fat guys that simply ride their atv to the deer stand and climb up with their rifle. I don' t think weight matters that much to the average bubba. Not sure why anyone would look at winchester anyway if what they want is a lightweight svelte rifle. There are far better choices.
[quote=JasonH]WhelenAway, here's a little secret for you.......most buyers ARE NOT paying attention to the twist rate. I understand that you and a couple of other folks live in a small world and you think that everyone is as crazy about this stuff as you are.....but that simply isn't the case. Most people have a life outside the reloading bench and technical manuals. They want nice guns that shoot reasonably well......that is all.
Yes that BUT, it won't hurt Bubba who don't give a shiit about twist rate and wants his $1500 rifle to shoot an inch and a half to have a faster twist. But having a faster twist will get MORE people who DO give a shiit interested in the product. More customers buying more product = more $$$$$. NOBODY loses!
What is so hard for you to understand about that? I've been rebar relying rifles for over a decade now, I've NEVER had anyone ask for a slower twist and the guys who don't know what twist rate is or does would never know if I screwed an 8 twist on their 243 when I rebarrel it.
WhelenAway, here's a little secret for you.......most buyers ARE NOT paying attention to the twist rate. I understand that you and a couple of other folks live in a small world and you think that everyone is as crazy about this stuff as you are.....but that simply isn't the case. Most people have a life outside the reloading bench and technical manuals. They want nice guns that shoot reasonably well......that is all.
A fairly low percentage of those guys visit this site.
Tedthorn/taylorforce: Regarding the statement: This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in Yonkers already builds for 500 less.... you refer to a Kimber. I have one in our shop and have compared them side by side...not even close on many fronts, stock is not as comfortable to me, not Cerakoted etc. Melvin Forbes is a great gunsmith with tremendous experience and he and Mark are friends but it is a push feed rifle.
Hmmmm, you thinking of a Forbes?
Kimber is a CRF action with a very similar stock...
Sounds like he is consulting members on this forum, which I believe is a good idea. I'm not sure who his target market issue supposed to be, but what he is offering is a rifle to those who demand more than the bic rifles at Walmart.
I can think of a dozen people on here who are a treasure trove of information and well worth the price of their consultation from this website.
A few of them have already posted on this thread, HINT!
I'd be damned if a let a low level person make the design on my product that I'm dumping large capitol into....and that merely speculation... Lets see if they get their poop in line before they hit the market FWIW this all will be a moot point if they are long throated with a short mag
WhelenAway, here's a little secret for you.......most buyers ARE NOT paying attention to the twist rate. I understand that you and a couple of other folks live in a small world and you think that everyone is as crazy about this stuff as you are.....but that simply isn't the case. Most people have a life outside the reloading bench and technical manuals. They want nice guns that shoot reasonably well......that is all.
Then those 'most people' that you speak of won't mind if the 223 & 243 barrels are twisted 1:8". Since they don't care.
Do you dip [bleep] think that the majority of the shooting and hunting public sits in their basements handloading and obsessing over the twist rates in their rifle? If that's your hobby fine, but you are in a small minority.
My god your post are painful. If the average Joe Shlub can't shoot or even care about sub-moa groups, or what twist rate is in the barrel, or if it has a short mag and long throat, why would you?
If Reed wants feedback from people that know, what are you running your soup cooler for? Your points are valid in that Joe Shlub doesn't know or care, but it is a pretty damn sure bet Reed and LAW already know this too.
The comment that this is like watching Groundhog Day is right on the money.
The crowd here generally, or as a rule, falls all over itself telling everyone that a Remington will stabilize anything you wish. People are apparently idiots to think otherwise. What twist rate are their 243's?
The crowd here generally, or as a rule, falls all over itself telling everyone that a Remington will stabilize anything you wish. People are apparently idiots to think otherwise. What twist rate are their 243's?
The drama here is incredible.
I think what you're trying to say is that the 9 1/4" twist will (typically) stabilize the 105gr. A-Max.
The 9" twist does not always stabilize the Bergers. That is why people would prefer an 8 twist so they can shoot all the bullets that are currently offered in .243 diameter.
What percent of $1500 rifles will be sold to the bubba's. They buy 700 BDL, or equal Winchester, as a top of line rifle. A few will buy a Mark V. I am not a VLD shooter, and do not use a little gun and try to make it a bigger gun. However I still prefer the faster twist, and Bubba will never know.
What percent of $1500 rifles will be sold to the bubba's. They buy 700 BDL, or equal Winchester, as a top of line rifle. A few will buy a Mark V. I am not a VLD shooter, and do not use a little gun and try to make it a bigger gun. However I still prefer the faster twist, and Bubba will never know.
After reading this whole thing this pretty much sums it up for me too. Not really any downside to following the partial public trend toward high BC bullets.
Unfortunately for me it is difficult to find a place to hunt here where 300 yard shots are common much less VLD's.
"Bubba" isn't going to know or care about the twist rate. So you can put any twist you want in it, and he'll be happy enough.
Those in the know want a fast twist rate, on everything. What's so difficult about this?
The 243 certainly should be 8 twist, as there are already bullets available "to the masses" that require such. We're talking now, not some dream in the future.
Well now. That changes things. Its funny to see this about fast twists. PO Ackley's books show several Qick Twist calibers that didn't work out for some reason. We seem to be redoing that, but maybe with more success. Is it bullet balance. Mule Deer has said it is much better than in the past.
Match, target or VLD type bullets don't suffer as much with fast twists. If people are saying that Partitions, CoreLoks or any other type bullets you'd buy off the shelf won't suffer being over spun then twist the shiitt outta them then.
It's settled then .243 and .22-250's shall have 1:8 barrels Lets not make them with a long throat and have a generous size mag and the market is cornered
What percent of $1500 rifles will be sold to the bubba's. They buy 700 BDL, or equal Winchester, as a top of line rifle. A few will buy a Mark V. I am not a VLD shooter, and do not use a little gun and try to make it a bigger gun. However I still prefer the faster twist, and Bubba will never know.
95% of guys paying $1500 will grab a box of cheap bullets off the shelf leaving the store and go hunt/shoot without considering twist.
Most 24hr members(custom rifle enthusiast) are beyond that, but were a very small % of rifle sales. I wouldn't never build a .243 without an 8 twist, but 'Bubba' don't care.
Let's not forget how we came by a 10 twist in the 243. The 244 Remington fell flat because it was twisted 12,and would not stabilize bullets longer than the 90 gr slugs of its day.OTOH, Winchester brought out the 243 with a 10 twist,which stabilized the heavier and longer 100 gr bullets.
So the 243 won the popularity contest and Remington had to rename the 244 to 6mm Rem and twist it 9, IIRC...it was still too late and the 6mm Rem never did catch up.
Then, much like today, the 6mm fans wanted the option of shooting the heavier 6mm bullets; but I never heard anyone complain about shooting lighter bullets in the faster twists of either the 243 or the 6mm Remington as the years went by,and both cartridges were used in a dual role of deer /varmint cartridges.
But today, bullets are even longer, what with the monos,and the VLD types up to 115 grains for those wanting to go long. I have not taken a look at factory 243 offerings but eventually,it's inevitable the factories will start offering VLD type bullets in heavier/longer configurations. So a faster twist in a 243 could be a good thing.
As t "Joe Average", whoever he is, the average shooter has access to more info in places like this site, where these things are discussed....he may not be aware now but he will be if he's paying attention...and may want to develop into shooting the heavier bullets. No sense repeating the mistakes of 60 years ago and handicap his rifle with a slower twist.
There just isn't any question that things are trending this way,and we have many different bullets today vs 60 years ago;and not just 243 but other calibers like 6.5 and 7mm as well.
And in any event I don't see Joe Average buying this rifle; no doubt, some will, but i see it appealing to the guy who wants to move beyond the mass produced-every size fits all type mass production offerings in the sub-$1000 price range...someone who wants to step up in quality.
Or the guy who previously might have built a custom with the features this rifle will hopefully offer but can accomplish most of those things with a rifle in the $1800 price range vs the $2000-$40000 he'd have to spend on a full custom.
In any event I don't see either of these groups loaded with many stooges...since they will know what they are looking for....much like Kimber or Forbes buyers today who want light weights without the heavy weight price tags.
Bob have you owned 243's in 1-9" and 1-8" loaded with these long heavier weight bullets like the ones being discussed here ? I owned a 6mm Rem 40X single shot with a two ounce trigger option and it came with a 1-12" twist and I remember slinging and ass load of bullets downrange with that rifle, but IIRC the heaviest I used back then were the Sierra 85gr BTHP's and they were unbelievably accurate. Length wise they were mostly likely the same or close in length to the 95 or 100 gr Partition. In hindsight, I think I hade the option of a 1-10" twist fro the Custom Shop back then and I don't think they offered a 1-9" back then, but I could be mistaken. Back then the old philosophy was to sin bullets only as much as you had to with the heaviest bullets you intended to shoot, because back then they felt that over spinning bullets led to accuracy problems. As Mule Deer said not long ago, that the bullets made today are much more concentric so accuracy problems are not as big of an issue by spinning them fast.
I can't fathom how a 1-9" isn't a nice compromise.
That's what my thought as well. The 1-9" should handle the 105 AMAX with little problem as Mule Deer pointed out, the faster twist being discussed would not be a detriment for the masses who will use this rifle as they don't shoot at long enough distances to even notice the potential advantages (longer distances) to see the difference (advantages) being discussed here. Regardless of whether the 1-8" twist will give the long distance shooters the leg up they state they will see, 95% of these rifles potential market, probably would never see it's advantage under 600 yards to take advantage of the even faster yet twist they state it would. Heck, I think the twist rates stated for the 260 were 1-8" and that newer 26 Nosler too has a 1-8" twist, so if long distance shooters plan on buying one of these LAW rifles, LAW certainly twisted them correctly with 1-8" twists on those rifles anyway.
I don't even know why we are so concerned with LAW. Stick nailed it in his first post.
With all the special runs, no reason to compromise.
Stick is usually right on many topics related to shooting and he is a proponent of buying rifles built around the use of a specific bullet. But again, that market (and thinking while good) represents an even smaller market segment. Remember too, that Stick is a head shot guy, at least from the pics I've seen here of his victims, so unless that is your plan as well, it might not be the road you'd want to build a rifle around. Any animal shot in the noggin is going to drop like a rock, so he picks bullets based on high BC and long range shots for than reason mostly. He has to anchor [bleep] pronto as tracking animals that travel into bear country isn't a warm and fuzzy feeling, along with if they travel some distance into cover, recovering them is a bitch do to the density of the bush. I know that his good pal, John Burns, also buys rifles with the same mindset as he is selling a "turnkey" rig for his customers, so his setup is more successful to build rifles that are going to use one bullet, at a certain velocity, along with a scope with a custom load specific system. For Burns rifles too, it makes complete sense.
That'd simplify things and satisfy the needs and wants of the guys who will be pulling out their wallets for one of these rifles. The 7mm 162gr A-Max, hardly the heaviest or longest bullet out there in 7mm, says "1:8 twist" right on the box. Several of the monos and sleeker bullets benefit from same, and bullets only get longer over time, as history illustrates- from the round ball down to the VLD and Hybrid, and Bob thoughtfully pointed that out. Barrel and rifle manufacturers are always playing "catch up" to try and keep up with the bullets of the day.
We face the same problem with our road system and population growth in our city. Every few years our decision makers recognize the need to expand our freeways and highways, albeit always a few years too late, and they create road construction projects to match current demand. So rather than building the roads a little larger than needed right now, so as to accommodate the city's population 5 years from now, they're always 3 years behind. People in our city are generally unhappy with our traffic and road situation. The city roads and infrastructure people have a lack of vision and forethought that hurts the general satisfaction with roads in our city.
Hopefully those sitting down to design rifles and barrels can do so with a little more vision and foresight.
This thread is funnier than [bleep]. P.O. Ackley, old farts from NH, a guy that has never left NC, plus the added pressure concern.
Let's also not leave out 'fast twist' makes sense for head shooters. I'm sure if it weren't for flaming a few deer a year in brain pan that Stick would be running 1-12" 243's. Sweet Jesus.
If this don't work out for Reed I hope he opens a Clown College, plenty of candidates here.
What didn't you understand about what I said Scotty ? I'll type slower if needed. I never said anything about his choice of twist rates because he takes heads shots. I said he like fast twists because of the bullets he uses at extended ranges. He talks incessantly about long (for caliber) bullets because of their high BC needed for the distances he shoots at (or likes to shoot at). Clear enough now ?
This thread is funnier than [bleep]. P.O. Ackley, old farts from NH, a guy that has never left NC, plus the added pressure concern.
Let's also not leave out 'fast twist' makes sense for head shooters. I'm sure if it weren't for flaming a few deer a year in brain pan that Stick would be running 1-12" 243's. Sweet Jesus.
If this don't work out for Reed I hope he opens a Clown College, plenty of candidates here.
LOL! Great contribution....as usual. Another vagina monologue.
I don't think any of this is worth arguing over anymore. Trying to reason with certain folks on this forum is like trying to convince bill clinton to keep his dick in his pants.
It's absurd to actually believe that a company is not going to be successful because they don't design their rifles to the specifications of the garage gunsmiths on this forum. The fact remains that as long as LAW builds a reliable rifle that is reasonably accurate and keeps the street price around $1500, they will probably sell every rifle they can make. Regardless of twist rate. If the rifles will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, that is all most hunters will ever need or care about. The real attraction of these rifles is going to be the proprietary action, the cerrakote finish and the high tech specialties stock.
If they happen to go to the 1:8 twist that the ballistic nazis on this forum are shouting for, so be it. I'm sure it will make a handful of people very happy. However, even if they don't, it's not going to hurt their profits. They will smile all the way to the bank.
If the opinions of the people on this forum mattered so much, then they would already be employed in the firearms business in some capacity. The fact that they are not shows just how useful their opinions really are. Again, the sooner you folks realize that we are all just piss ants with a computer, the better off you will be.
I don't think any of this is worth arguing over anymore. Trying to reason with certain folks on this forum is like trying to convince bill clinton to keep his dick in his pants.
It's absurd to actually believe that a company is not going to be successful because they don't design their rifles to the specifications of the garage gunsmiths on this forum. The fact remains that as long as LAW builds a reliable rifle that is reasonably accurate and keeps the street price around $1500, they will probably sell every rifle they can make. Regardless of twist rate. If the rifles will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, that is all most hunters will ever need or care about. The real attraction of these rifles is going to be the proprietary action, the cerrakote finish and the high tech specialties stock.
If they happen to go to the 1:8 twist that the ballistic nazis on this forum are shouting for, so be it. I'm sure it will make a handful of people very happy. However, even if they don't, it's not going to hurt their profits. They will smile all the way to the bank.
If the opinions of the people on this forum mattered so much, then they would already be employed in the firearms business in some capacity. The fact that they are not shows just how useful their opinions really are. Again, the sooner you folks realize that we are all just piss ants with a computer, the better off you will be.
I'm no ordinary garage gunsmith.
Here at 'flave Precision we get things right. Sometimes.
This thread is funnier than [bleep]. P.O. Ackley, old farts from NH, a guy that has never left NC, plus the added pressure concern.
Let's also not leave out 'fast twist' makes sense for head shooters. I'm sure if it weren't for flaming a few deer a year in brain pan that Stick would be running 1-12" 243's. Sweet Jesus.
If this don't work out for Reed I hope he opens a Clown College, plenty of candidates here.
LOL! Great contribution....as usual. Another vagina monologue.
Tell me where I'm wrong? Seems it's all you long winded bastards that haven't the first clue.
This thread is funnier than [bleep]. P.O. Ackley, old farts from NH, a guy that has never left NC, plus the added pressure concern.
Let's also not leave out 'fast twist' makes sense for head shooters. I'm sure if it weren't for flaming a few deer a year in brain pan that Stick would be running 1-12" 243's. Sweet Jesus.
If this don't work out for Reed I hope he opens a Clown College, plenty of candidates here.
LOL! Great contribution....as usual. Another vagina monologue.
Tell me where I'm wrong? Seems it's all you long winded bastards that haven't the first clue.
Facts don't need many words.
The fact is, squealhead, you are a do nothing that likes to tell every one else that their success is wrong. We get the fast twist thing. Many of us own fast twist custom rifles. But the reality is many of us actually hunt as well. We know good and well that 1" of twist does not make or break success in the field. In fact, I will hunt, for the next two years, with a 9.25 twist 243 AI, a 9 twist 280, and a 10 twist 338 and will, once again, out hunt (successfully) you doing it. That's a given. Or in other words a fact.
So carry on wringing your hands and throwing out vile insults while the rest of us do and you, well, do not.
Tell me where I'm wrong? Seems it's all you long winded bastards that haven't the first clue.
Facts don't need many words.
First of all what passes for "facts" in your world really amount to nothing more than speculation and guessing about what people other than yourself "know". And I think you are clever enough to mask a lot of your own inexperience by not saying too much.
Second,your delivery of glib one liners are designed to insult and belittle people and comprise the overwhelming majority of what you post,as if everyone is stupid except you.I think you do it to make yourself seem superior somehow. Bullies behave that way. I get that you don't happen to enjoy what I post on here....that's too bad. I don't "like" what you post either. You've never taught me anything I don't already know,and you're insulting to boot....not a great combination.
It's easy to toss out insults and one liners that don't communicate very much. You do it a lot and profess shear genius is in the brevity....you think this fools people. It doesn't.
I don't know how old you are and don't care;since you're retired you aren't all that far behind me. But you comment on this fast twist thing like you invented the concept...as Pathfinder says you aren't the only one who knows about it.
I had Krieger build a number of fast twist barrels in 270, 7mm, 30 caliber,35, and 375 starting back in the 80's and continuing right into the 90's....8-9 in 7mm and similar in 30,12 in 35,and 10 in 375.So I have an understanding of what they do and don't do and the benefits,since I loaded and shot, and hunted with about every single one of them.You may have been in high school at the time?
yes, I am aware that increased twist does not, of itself, increase pressures,at least as near as I can tell. If it did I likely would have blown up a rifle or three by now.
Here right now I have barrels in 6mm/8 twist Bartlein, 7mm/ 9 twist Brux, and (just arrived) 10 twist Krieger 375. I assume they would meet your approval? Be glad to send you a photo if you don't believe me.
I am not sure how any of this moves me into the Old Fart/Clown class but you have your own ideas about me; I have my own ideas about you,too.
I don't know what your problem is since you don't communicate very well. You don't like Bansner stocks? Ever own at least one?
Ever even seen an Ed Brown action?
If you read what I posted, you might see that I said a fast twist would be a good idea in light of recent bullets...I also said this is not "new" although you might think it is,since many cartridges ,other than the 6mm's have morphed into a faster twist in response to bullet development. The 7mm Weatherby cartridge moved from a 12 twist to a 10 twist because it would not stabilize 160 gr bullets of the day. The 270 Weatherby also went from 12 to 10.This may have happened before you were born but I'm not sure.
All that said,and as Pathfinder points out(I know that he has considerable experience actually killing BG animals) the success or failure of a hunt rarely if ever boils down to what twist is in your barrel. You need a faster twist to stabilize longer bullets....I get it...many of us do.
So I would suggest you get some of your "facts" straight before you declare them etched in stone. I know i asked you this before but if I am not mistaken you've never killed any BG animal at much past 300 yards. Not sure I got a response because I rarely if ever go back to see what you said a second time. I have to deal with people like you sometimes in my work....I sure don't want to be bothered with them in my time off.
Faster twists do increase pressure, how much I really don't know, I more or less just threw that into the mix as it possibly may play a role in their decision on their twist rates I've never seen any issues with my faster twists and think it would benefit them to change a few twist rates on certain cartridges but in the end that will be their decision, one thing I won't do is treat Reed with disrespect just because I don't agree with how they are setting up their rifles, I'll just take a different route.....
In the end it boils down to fast twist has been suggested and it is understood that this opens the market to more buyers and closes it to none of the previous buyers.
Unless there is some greater cost associated with the faster twist barrels, this is a no brainer in regard to a business decision.
Faster twists do increase pressure, how much I really don't know, I more or less just threw that into the mix as it possibly may play a role in their decision on their twist rates I've never seen any issues with my faster twists and think it would benefit them to change a few twist rates on certain cartridges but in the end that will be their decision, one thing I won't do is treat Reed with disrespect just because I don't agree with how they are setting up their rifles, I'll just take a different route.....
People with pressure testing equipment have proven that the increase in pressure is next to nothing.
Faster twists do increase pressure, how much I really don't know, I more or less just threw that into the mix as it possibly may play a role in their decision on their twist rates I've never seen any issues with my faster twists and think it would benefit them to change a few twist rates on certain cartridges but in the end that will be their decision, one thing I won't do is treat Reed with disrespect just because I don't agree with how they are setting up their rifles, I'll just take a different route.....
People with pressure testing equipment have proven that the increase in pressure is next to nothing.
Travis
You may very well be right, I knew flave precision would know ....I'll try to come up with a better conspiracy theory next time!
I don't even know why we are so concerned with LAW. Stick nailed it in his first post.
With all the special runs, no reason to compromise.
Stick is usually right on many topics related to shooting and he is a proponent of buying rifles built around the use of a specific bullet. But again, that market (and thinking while good) represents an even smaller market segment. Remember too, that Stick is a head shot guy, at least from the pics I've seen here of his victims, so unless that is your plan as well, it might not be the road you'd want to build a rifle around. Any animal shot in the noggin is going to drop like a rock, so he picks bullets based on high BC and long range shots for than reason mostly. He has to anchor [bleep] pronto as tracking animals that travel into bear country isn't a warm and fuzzy feeling, along with if they travel some distance into cover, recovering them is a bitch do to the density of the bush. I know that his good pal, John Burns, also buys rifles with the same mindset as he is selling a "turnkey" rig for his customers, so his setup is more successful to build rifles that are going to use one bullet, at a certain velocity, along with a scope with a custom load specific system. For Burns rifles too, it makes complete sense.
In fairness...I haven't shot anything in the head,since Sunday afternoon,mainly because yesterday was a travel day to work. I caught an unsuspecting Otter swimming at what I figured to be 680yds(triangulated from LRF readings in the neighborhood and extrapolated in kind) and when I dialed 680yd dope into a MK4 M1 3.5-10x(which I'd left on 6X in my haste to drop into an MPA/Ruck field rest),it arranged a 6-284 1-8" Brux spout flingin' 105 Hornie HPBT's kissin' from it's DBM,to crush a cranium. Anything but "surprising",was the outcome.
I got caught flat footed the day prior in similar opportunity,though UKD and I had the wrong tool for the job in my mitts,but tried to make do. 75 Hornie HPBT's at 2725fps from an 18" 1-8" Middie,is hardly a laser beam and I reckoned the distance to be 425yds,as a laser wouldn't bounce off his head in the snow/fog/water and it were closer to 450yds. Made mention that the following day would be a LFB Day,in order to fend another UKD situation,with more BC and more velocity...as well as give the not so OEM Pappy Zero Stop some more Play Time.
Now steaks tend to get shot in the ear,if only because the ear is the furthest kill button away from the steaks and flipping the CNS switch reliably seals the deal. Flipside being,Critters that ain't sought expressly for their Steaktitude,tend to get shoulders broken with boring regularity. Though it is a nice arrangement that Splendid Beasties,come with Splendid Steaks.
If only to stay the course.
80yds. 105Hornie HPBT.
505yds. 105 Hornie HPBT.
Just sayin'.
Now this twist schit is always a fhuqking riot,because droves of CLUELESS Window Licking Idiots come crawling outta the woodwork,to extoll their amazing fhuqking STUPIDITY. Funniest part is,all those belly aching Clueless Kchunts are "over twisted" with all the schit they shoot and they don't even fhuqking know it. EPIC fhuqking humor! Their 308's,'06's,yada,yada,yada all boast copious reserve twist rate,given the length of projectiles these Stupid Fhuqkers launch. Bullets matter more than headstamps and none can drive that point home better obliviously,than a herd of Whining Kchunts.
Ms. Reed is very obviously a Clueless Kchunt and still as of yet,the cat has her tongue and the couch her kchunt,because she's gone wayyyyyyyyyyy outta her way to refrain any/all things germane. Even she KNOWS how far she is in over her head and that's some poignant perspective. Laffin'!
It is hardly a daunting feat to twist and throat in conjunction with COAL. That being said,all these WhizBang Dumb Fhuqks and their latest Show Ponies,try double-extry hard to make sure no dots are connected. Now that is a fascinating Business Model. Wow!
The Whining Kchunt Faction has long been gunning twist rates of copious reserve,less an inkling in that regard and now are convinced that it is time to make a "stand",so as to preclude that which they've been doing their entire Clueless fhuqking "Life". FUNNY schit!!!
The upside to reserve RPM,is that there is no downside. Read that again. Now one more time. I shoot a goodly smattering of twist rates in more than a few diameters and in none of them,do I have ammo in a lazy twist,that I cannot gun in a faster one,due to "pressure" curves associated with RPM. 'Course you cain't buy Superformance ammo in a 10",11" and 12" "only" versions either,but Drooling Dumbfhuqks will Hissy Fit inherent advantages. Again...FUNNY schit!
Do I expressly label 1-14" 223AI fodder,so as to keep it out of my 12,10,9,8,7.7 and 7" twist spouts? Nope. Will there be a catastrophic failure,if I shoot 1-7"/75gr fodder through a 14"? Nope...only keyholes.
Will a 1-8" 243Win in say a 2.815" box throated in conjunction,steal Joe Average's Ping Pong Ball BC launching Thunder? Ummmmm...nope,the STUPID fhuqker would still be devoid ANY/ALL inkling,just as he has been from day one. Now will the astute,leap upon those glaring advantages and reap the rewards? All day and every day. Can poor poor STUPID fhuqking Joe Average,savvy that the only way boolits get better,is to get longer?!? Nope,that'd be wayyyyyyyyyyy too fhuqking easy. Laffin'!
Were I not waiting to board a jet,I might would mebbe delve into the "startling" facts associated with modest case capacity chamberings,soundly flogging on greater capacity and longer action length chamberings,due solely boolit selection. Such things really get Joe Average into a Hissy Fit and that too,is of course funnier than fhuqk! The greater the BC,the greater a boolit clings to it's starting velocity,the harder it hits(due the retention of that speed) and the better it slips atmospheric conditions. Really pisses Clueless Kchunts off too,when the projectiles that arrange same,are less expensive too. It's another real pisser for 'em,that one can reduce recoil,while bolstering flight characteristics and terminal affects. I can hear itty-bitty feet stomping in unison now. Laffin'!
Tough to trump the humor of something that handles like a Rail Road Tie and launches Ping Pong Balls,as the culmination of deep "thought",extensive "experience" and copious "R&D"...then Stupid Fhuqkers wearing a straight face,stand in line to laude the melding.
I don't think any of this is worth arguing over anymore. Trying to reason with certain folks on this forum is like trying to convince bill clinton to keep his dick in his pants.
It's absurd to actually believe that a company is not going to be successful because they don't design their rifles to the specifications of the garage gunsmiths on this forum. The fact remains that as long as LAW builds a reliable rifle that is reasonably accurate and keeps the street price around $1500, they will probably sell every rifle they can make. Regardless of twist rate. If the rifles will shoot 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, that is all most hunters will ever need or care about. The real attraction of these rifles is going to be the proprietary action, the cerrakote finish and the high tech specialties stock.
If they happen to go to the 1:8 twist that the ballistic nazis on this forum are shouting for, so be it. I'm sure it will make a handful of people very happy. However, even if they don't, it's not going to hurt their profits. They will smile all the way to the bank.
If the opinions of the people on this forum mattered so much, then they would already be employed in the firearms business in some capacity. The fact that they are not shows just how useful their opinions really are. Again, the sooner you folks realize that we are all just piss ants with a computer, the better off you will be.
I'm no ordinary garage gunsmith.
Here at 'flave Precision we get things right. Sometimes.
These threads suck and I just scroll for pictures!
I do appreciate that the center piece of your work area features the hammers! Very useful in home gunsmithing...good job.
This is a good article from someone I wouldn't question very much on internal and external ballistics. There are no downsides to faster twist rates in this modern era.
Much of what I liked was very subjective, which is why I hesitated to go into details. From what I could tell by handling the rifle for a few minutes it appeared to be well put together. The fit and finish on that example was excellent, and the stock felt very good in the hand with a thinner grip and the rifle balanced well. It was light enough, yet felt solid. The action was very smooth yet there was hardly any wear on the finish in the raceways, unlike the Forbes I have spent a lot of time with that took a lot of cycling the bolt to smooth out. It did have a little wear on the coating on the barrel, but who knows how many times it had been set into the metal display they had. I can't make a firm recommendation until I put one through the wringer, but if you wanted a gun that matched the specs they have it seemed like a good way to get into one without the wait for about what it would cost for a smith to put one together. I can't wait to hear the reviews later this spring from those that get one.
This is a good article from someone I wouldn't question very much on internal and external ballistics. There are no downsides to faster twist rates in this modern era.
Tell me where I'm wrong? Seems it's all you long winded bastards that haven't the first clue.
Facts don't need many words.
First of all what passes for "facts" in your world really amount to nothing more than speculation and guessing about what people other than yourself "know". And I think you are clever enough to mask a lot of your own inexperience by not saying too much.
Second,your delivery of glib one liners are designed to insult and belittle people and comprise the overwhelming majority of what you post,as if everyone is stupid except you.I think you do it to make yourself seem superior somehow. Bullies behave that way. I get that you don't happen to enjoy what I post on here....that's too bad. I don't "like" what you post either. You've never taught me anything I don't already know,and you're insulting to boot....not a great combination.
It's easy to toss out insults and one liners that don't communicate very much. You do it a lot and profess shear genius is in the brevity....you think this fools people. It doesn't.
I don't know how old you are and don't care;since you're retired you aren't all that far behind me. But you comment on this fast twist thing like you invented the concept...as Pathfinder says you aren't the only one who knows about it.
I had Krieger build a number of fast twist barrels in 270, 7mm, 30 caliber,35, and 375 starting back in the 80's and continuing right into the 90's....8-9 in 7mm and similar in 30,12 in 35,and 10 in 375.So I have an understanding of what they do and don't do and the benefits,since I loaded and shot, and hunted with about every single one of them.You may have been in high school at the time?
yes, I am aware that increased twist does not, of itself, increase pressures,at least as near as I can tell. If it did I likely would have blown up a rifle or three by now.
Here right now I have barrels in 6mm/8 twist Bartlein, 7mm/ 9 twist Brux, and (just arrived) 10 twist Krieger 375. I assume they would meet your approval? Be glad to send you a photo if you don't believe me.
I am not sure how any of this moves me into the Old Fart/Clown class but you have your own ideas about me; I have my own ideas about you,too.
I don't know what your problem is since you don't communicate very well. You don't like Bansner stocks? Ever own at least one?
Ever even seen an Ed Brown action?
If you read what I posted, you might see that I said a fast twist would be a good idea in light of recent bullets...I also said this is not "new" although you might think it is,since many cartridges ,other than the 6mm's have morphed into a faster twist in response to bullet development. The 7mm Weatherby cartridge moved from a 12 twist to a 10 twist because it would not stabilize 160 gr bullets of the day. The 270 Weatherby also went from 12 to 10.This may have happened before you were born but I'm not sure.
All that said,and as Pathfinder points out(I know that he has considerable experience actually killing BG animals) the success or failure of a hunt rarely if ever boils down to what twist is in your barrel. You need a faster twist to stabilize longer bullets....I get it...many of us do.
So I would suggest you get some of your "facts" straight before you declare them etched in stone. I know i asked you this before but if I am not mistaken you've never killed any BG animal at much past 300 yards. Not sure I got a response because I rarely if ever go back to see what you said a second time. I have to deal with people like you sometimes in my work....I sure don't want to be bothered with them in my time off.
If I asked you what time it is, you'd tell me how a watch is made.
I've watched enough of your bullshiet over the years typing many a word about items you've never used.
I'm sure there is much to be learned from Yankees like you and RD. Can't wait for tales from the Pines.
Tell me where I'm wrong? Seems it's all you long winded bastards that haven't the first clue.
Facts don't need many words.
First of all what passes for "facts" in your world really amount to nothing more than speculation and guessing about what people other than yourself "know". And I think you are clever enough to mask a lot of your own inexperience by not saying too much.
Second,your delivery of glib one liners are designed to insult and belittle people and comprise the overwhelming majority of what you post,as if everyone is stupid except you.I think you do it to make yourself seem superior somehow. Bullies behave that way. I get that you don't happen to enjoy what I post on here....that's too bad. I don't "like" what you post either. You've never taught me anything I don't already know,and you're insulting to boot....not a great combination.
It's easy to toss out insults and one liners that don't communicate very much. You do it a lot and profess shear genius is in the brevity....you think this fools people. It doesn't.
I don't know how old you are and don't care;since you're retired you aren't all that far behind me. But you comment on this fast twist thing like you invented the concept...as Pathfinder says you aren't the only one who knows about it.
I had Krieger build a number of fast twist barrels in 270, 7mm, 30 caliber,35, and 375 starting back in the 80's and continuing right into the 90's....8-9 in 7mm and similar in 30,12 in 35,and 10 in 375.So I have an understanding of what they do and don't do and the benefits,since I loaded and shot, and hunted with about every single one of them.You may have been in high school at the time?
yes, I am aware that increased twist does not, of itself, increase pressures,at least as near as I can tell. If it did I likely would have blown up a rifle or three by now.
Here right now I have barrels in 6mm/8 twist Bartlein, 7mm/ 9 twist Brux, and (just arrived) 10 twist Krieger 375. I assume they would meet your approval? Be glad to send you a photo if you don't believe me.
I am not sure how any of this moves me into the Old Fart/Clown class but you have your own ideas about me; I have my own ideas about you,too.
I don't know what your problem is since you don't communicate very well. You don't like Bansner stocks? Ever own at least one?
Ever even seen an Ed Brown action?
If you read what I posted, you might see that I said a fast twist would be a good idea in light of recent bullets...I also said this is not "new" although you might think it is,since many cartridges ,other than the 6mm's have morphed into a faster twist in response to bullet development. The 7mm Weatherby cartridge moved from a 12 twist to a 10 twist because it would not stabilize 160 gr bullets of the day. The 270 Weatherby also went from 12 to 10.This may have happened before you were born but I'm not sure.
All that said,and as Pathfinder points out(I know that he has considerable experience actually killing BG animals) the success or failure of a hunt rarely if ever boils down to what twist is in your barrel. You need a faster twist to stabilize longer bullets....I get it...many of us do.
So I would suggest you get some of your "facts" straight before you declare them etched in stone. I know i asked you this before but if I am not mistaken you've never killed any BG animal at much past 300 yards. Not sure I got a response because I rarely if ever go back to see what you said a second time. I have to deal with people like you sometimes in my work....I sure don't want to be bothered with them in my time off.
If I asked you what time it is, you'd tell me how a watch is made.
I've watched enough of your bullshiet over the years typing many a word about items you've never used.
I'm sure there is much to be learned from Yankees like you and RD. Can't wait for tales from the Pines.
Sometimes we have to speak slower for our less equipped crowd
Did it not suddenly get purty quiet?!? I was patiently awaiting more Vagina Monologue from Clueless Fhuqking Windowlickers,extolling how "bad" reserve RPM is and the retrospective on how they've been launching Ping Pong Balls through same since day one. I'll feign my "surprise",that once those most glaring of dots began to connect,they largely shut right the fhuqk up.
Funny how facts work...and I mean FUNNY!
Seriously? A "group buy" on a Kimber?!? ESPECIALLY one wearing more RPM?!?
Listen to you all crying in the corner ^ lol its not that its quiet quite a bit of decent discussion actually, its that no one especially the OP wants to bother responding to your diatribe. Go get your crayons and write some more on your rifles maybe that'll make you get noticed or at least keep you busy
You Whining Clueless Kchunts are fhuqking hilarious! You oh soooo very nearly said something about The Rifle and I'll feign my "surprise",that even someone as fhuqking stupid as you...KNEW better. Laffin'!
Mebbe shoot Ms. Reed a PM and clap your itty-bitty hands a little more,so as to beat the drum to receive an autographed Ping Pong Ball from The Hollywood Hunter!
You'll wanna re-read what I said,take notes and apply same.
Hint.
You've been led to water,PLEASE make a "stand" and refrain the refreshment,then wax eloquent on those "satisfactions".
Just sayin'.
Laffin'!
Bless your heart.
Pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess.
Those saying Bubba don't worry about twist thus the mfg shouldn't - you will be in for a surprise when we're mandated to go monometal - no lead. Makes bullets longer for like weight.
Bubba, who believes bullet performance starts with what WEIGHT is listed on the box is going to be surprised how much twist will matter then and THEN we'll see some cryin'
I'll feign my "surprise" that all you could muster through your quivering lips and trembling hands,was a poignantly poetic Vagina Monologue obliviously flaunting your Window Licking "abilities" and a quain't "stand",culminating in the highly vaunted Imaginary Pretend Ignore ploy. Absolutely fascinating Dumbfhuqkery! Congratulations?!?
What next? Are you going to hold your breath and stomp your itty-bitty feet,while screaming (1-14" rocks!...1-14" ROCKS!). Laffin'..you AMAZINGLY clueless dumbfhuqk!
Who chews your food for you?
Wow.
PS and by the way,when you read this,keep in mind that you "can't" reply,as that would of course steal the "thunder" from your Imaginary Pretend Ignore.
Bless your heart.
Pardon my shooting a smidge.
Laffin'!
teal,
It IS funnier than fhuqk,that the Brain Trust at Legend'...couldn't sneak up on a glass of fhuqking water or reliably pour piss out of a boot,but wanna convince Joe Average that they got "it" going on. HILARIOUS!
BEST part is,Joe SUB-Average is swooning the Dumbfhuqkery!
With twist,throating and COAL in one's hip pocket,the concessions are none and the inherent advantages well beyond copious. The fixation on "weight" is indeed funny and beyond moot. I keep waiting on a SD expose too!
Odd...that none of the Crying Kchunts lamenting reserve RPM,have cited what chambering(s) they shoot,in which rifle(s) and which boolit(s) are being flung. I wonder if that might could mebbe perhaps pinpoint the fact,that the very notions they lament,are the long standing processes they've been doing...less a single fhuqking clue?!?(grin)
I was glad to hear the Ed brown action was being made again. I have had very good luck with them. My favorite elk rifle has an Ed brown action,lilja barrel and a rimrock stock. It is nice rig.
I also owned a Ed brown Damara rifle which I foolisly sold. It was also a really nice gun.
So I'm pretty happy about the new rifles,sounds good to me.
On the subject of twist,they should be offered with fast twists that will handle modern high bc bullets. The 243s should be 1 in 8. the 6.5s at 1 in 8. the 270s 1 in 9. Al 7mms should be no slower than 1 in 9. The 30s 1 in 10. That would pretty much cover it except for the lightest varmit bullets,and these rifles are big game rifles not heavy varmit rigs anyway.
Those saying Bubba don't worry about twist thus the mfg shouldn't - you will be in for a surprise when we're mandated to go monometal - no lead. Makes bullets longer for like weight.
Bubba, who believes bullet performance starts with what WEIGHT is listed on the box is going to be surprised how much twist will matter then and THEN we'll see some cryin'
The "Bubba" theory is one of my most favoritest.
I've yet to see "Bubba" turn down a Ruger American due to a 1-8" twist. And I've yet to see "Bubba" bitch and moan about his 1-7" AR.
"Bubba" doesn't know twist rates from a wife beater.
I'll feign my "surprise" that all you could muster through your quivering lips and trembling hands,was a poignantly poetic Vagina Monologue obliviously flaunting your Window Licking "abilities" and a quain't "stand",culminating in the highly vaunted Imaginary Pretend Ignore ploy. Absolutely fascinating Dumbfhuqkery! Congratulations?!?
What next? Are you going to hold your breath and stomp your itty-bitty feet,while screaming (1-14" rocks!...1-14" ROCKS!). Laffin'..you AMAZINGLY clueless dumbfhuqk!
Who chews your food for you?
Wow.
PS and by the way,when you read this,keep in mind that you "can't" reply,as that would of course steal the "thunder" from your Imaginary Pretend Ignore.
Bless your heart.
Pardon my shooting a smidge.
Laffin'!
teal,
It IS funnier than fhuqk,that the Brain Trust at Legend'...couldn't sneak up on a glass of fhuqking water or reliably pour piss out of a boot,but wanna convince Joe Average that they got "it" going on. HILARIOUS!
BEST part is,Joe SUB-Average is swooning the Dumbfhuqkery!
With twist,throating and COAL in one's hip pocket,the concessions are none and the inherent advantages well beyond copious. The fixation on "weight" is indeed funny and beyond moot. I keep waiting on a SD expose too!
Odd...that none of the Crying Kchunts lamenting reserve RPM,have cited what chambering(s) they shoot,in which rifle(s) and which boolit(s) are being flung. I wonder if that might could mebbe perhaps pinpoint the fact,that the very notions they lament,are the long standing processes they've been doing...less a single fhuqking clue?!?(grin)
Schit don't get any funnier than this.
EPIC thread!
Dear Mr. Boxer. I really tried to stay away but I needed someone to laugh at and for whatever reason, thought of you. So, I'm back. I read your post. Man, you're a smart guy. Must be pretty cool to have all that knowledge bottled up in one noggin. You carry on, I'll just stand by watching and learning from the master. Oh, I almost forgot. You're funny, too. Really funny. I like that. So, please do continue.
You wanna see something really funny, go to Youtube, type in Busheler in search. Then you will get to see the lil fat troll (Boxer) Talk about lil man syndrome, he's got it!! He's just a keyboard warrior who talks alot of schit on the internet. Must have got picked on alot as a kid. Total jackarse.
You wanna see something really funny, go to Youtube, type in Busheler in search. Then you will get to see the lil fat troll (Boxer) Talk about lil man syndrome, he's got it!! He's just a keyboard warrior who talks alot of schit on the internet. Must have got picked on alot as a kid. Total jackarse.
I've been here a long time. I've seen a lot of posts by Stick. I've seen a lot of people attack the guy and he holds his own.
At the end of the day:
He's yet to ever lie to me, he's never not answered a PM with great information that was absolutely spot on and worked the way it should. He's always answered even the most basic of questions.
In other words - if you're not an idiot, you'll get a long just fine with him. Ask honest questions, try out the answers and report back. Haven't seen anything not go as he said it would.
Lest you think I'm riding his jock - my preference tends to go towards wood/blue Rugers topped with whatever scope is on sale.
Don't own a Kimber, don't own a 700 (do use one of my father's - DBM model) and I've never ordered a super chicken. I've never fired a TSX or Skinner in anger. Though the TSX will be changing.
Bout the only thing we're 1 to 1 on is that the 105 Amax is one wicked sumbitch.
Teal, I don't doubt what you say but could not undestand why he attacked the OP in this thread without provocation. I thought it was entirely out of line which is why I fired off.
I just watched a couple of our friend boxer's YouTube videos. I love the way you constantly curse in front of your son there boxer buddy. You guys on this forum that defend him seriously need to go watch his channel. Especially the video titled "BC break in time constrained". That's the one where he sets such a good example for his young son, by using the f bomb. We might all accidentally let one slip in front of our kids once in awhile, but there is no excuse for that kind of crap. I don't care how knowledgeable he is, I just lost any respect I had for him. What a piece of garbage. I should have known that he was a total piece of human debris by the way he conducts himself on this forum, but his videos leave no doubt.
Boxer, I respect the way that you are bringing your son up to hunt and shoot, but for heavens sake man do you think you could try to set a better example for him?
I'll haveta feign my "surprise" yet again,that not only are you an amazingly Clueless Kchunt...you are also a Lying Piece Of Schit. Congratulations?!?
You were fhuqking near brazen enough to almost say something about The Rifle.
Almost.
Laffin'!
Cheer up...noone can "make" you Do Nothing Kchunts appear more fhuqking clueless,than you poor poor Stupid Fhuqks do yourself,by simply doing your "best" and I'd certainly not wish to begrudge you such sweet "satisfactions". Ms. Reed assuredly don't have a leg to stand upon and you are doing "great" too!
Bless your heart,I was "sure" that your Imaginary Pretend Ignore was gonna bear fruit too.
Laffin'!
Looking forward to your next Whine.
'68,
What WON'T you Whining Kchunts...not Whine about?!? Do tell. Laffin'!
Its your Imagination,so simply continue to Pretend with it as you must.
Knock it out of the Park and tell yourself aloud,that you could too.
Laffin'!
teal,
I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.
Which by default,do give Guessers something more to Whine about.(grin)
JasonKchunt,
Lemme fuel your Imagination,if only to bolster your Pretend.
In no particular order,other than to listen to you Whining Clueless Fhuqks...Whine. Laffin'!
Vagina Monologues are farrrrrrrrrrr safer than musing any/all things The Rifle...but luckily,Imagination and Pretend are free,so Do Nothing Dumbfhuqks can "play" too.
Laffin'!
(A UFO Nig addendum)
I said you were a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit...mainly because you are a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit and for no other reason.
You said(in it's entirety):
"Hey Boxer. You may well be the smartest guy in the room but your are an absolute horse's ass. GFY. You have graduated to the top of my ignore list.
Hint, Play on, playa!
Laffin!"
So besides being an amazingly STUPID Fhuqk,you are a Lying Fhuqk and an impressively Whining Kchunt.
Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart.
Here's to your Imagination and just how badly you NEED it.
Laffin'!
Unless of course by "ignore",you mean a yapping lap dog,hanging on my every fhuqking word. My bad.
Hey Boxer. You may well be the smartest guy in the room but your are an absolute horse's ass. GFY. You have graduated to the top of my ignore list.
Hint, Play on, playa!
Laffin!
Pretty sure your imaginary pretend ignore is broken, or maybe you told a little white fib. Technically speaking I'm pretty sure it's called a lie.
Although if your ignore list is just a list and not an actual put him on ignore then Boxer would be wrong. I which case you could still claim to not be lying.
Hey Boxer. You may well be the smartest guy in the room but your are an absolute horse's ass. GFY. You have graduated to the top of my ignore list.
Hint, Play on, playa!
Laffin!
Pretty sure your imaginary pretend ignore is broken, or maybe you told a little white fib. Technically speaking I'm pretty sure it's called a lie.
Although if your ignore list is just a list and not an actual put him on ignore then Boxer would be wrong. I which case you could still claim to not be lying.
Pretty sure I took him back off ignore and then told him that I had done so.
I'll haveta feign my "surprise" yet again,that not only are you an amazingly Clueless Kchunt...you are also a Lying Piece Of Schit. Congratulations?!?
You were fhuqking near brazen enough to almost say something about The Rifle.
Almost.
Laffin'!
Cheer up...noone can "make" you Do Nothing Kchunts appear more fhuqking clueless,than you poor poor Stupid Fhuqks do yourself,by simply doing your "best" and I'd certainly not wish to begrudge you such sweet "satisfactions". Ms. Reed assuredly don't have a leg to stand upon and you are doing "great" too!
Bless your heart,I was "sure" that your Imaginary Pretend Ignore was gonna bear fruit too.
Laffin'!
Looking forward to your next Whine.
'68,
What WON'T you Whining Kchunts...not Whine about?!? Do tell. Laffin'!
Its your Imagination,so simply continue to Pretend with it as you must.
Knock it out of the Park and tell yourself aloud,that you could too.
Laffin'!
teal,
I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.
Which by default,do give Guessers something more to Whine about.(grin)
JasonKchunt,
Lemme fuel your Imagination,if only to bolster your Pretend.
In no particular order,other than to listen to you Whining Clueless Fhuqks...Whine. Laffin'!
Vagina Monologues are farrrrrrrrrrr safer than musing any/all things The Rifle...but luckily,Imagination and Pretend are free,so Do Nothing Dumbfhuqks can "play" too.
Laffin'!
(A UFO Nig addendum)
I said you were a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit...mainly because you are a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit and for no other reason.
You said(in it's entirety):
"Hey Boxer. You may well be the smartest guy in the room but your are an absolute horse's ass. GFY. You have graduated to the top of my ignore list.
Hint, Play on, playa!
Laffin!"
So besides being an amazingly STUPID Fhuqk,you are a Lying Fhuqk and an impressively Whining Kchunt.
Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart.
Here's to your Imagination and just how badly you NEED it.
Laffin'!
Unless of course by "ignore",you mean a yapping lap dog,hanging on my every fhuqking word. My bad.
Re-laffin'!
Actually, I did put you on ignore but decided to take you off and have some fun. Do you recall my post where I stated that?
Have the twist rates in your rifles be sufficient to cleanly stabilize the heavy VLD type bullets. There is no point in producing a product that will not stabilize today's modern bullets and there are no adverse effects to doing so. Those that buy your products that shoot older vintage more conventional bullets will not know the difference and there will be no reduction in accuracy:
.224 bullets - 8" twist .243 bullets - 8" twist .257 bullets - 9" twist, or maybe even 8" More manufacturers are starting to come out with longer, heavier VLD type bullets. .264 bullets - 8" twist .284" bullets - 8.75" twist .308 - 10" twist
Have your chambers throated so that the shooter (hand loader) can reach the lands at magazine length with said VLD type bullets. This will only guarantee you more sales from the true enthusiest and will cost you no sales to the average Joe.
Have the twist rates in your rifles be sufficient to cleanly stabilize the heavy VLD type bullets. There is no point in producing a product that will not stabilize today's modern bullets and there are no adverse effects to doing so. Those that buy your products that shoot older vintage more conventional bullets will not know the difference and there will be no reduction in accuracy:
.224 bullets - 8" twist .243 bullets - 8" twist .257 bullets - 9" twist, or maybe even 8" More manufacturers are starting to come out with longer, heavier VLD type bullets. .264 bullets - 8" twist .284" bullets - 8.75" twist .308 - 10" twist
Have your chambers throated so that the shooter (hand loader) can reach the lands at magazine length with said VLD type bullets. This will only guarantee you more sales from the true enthusiest and will cost you no sales to the average Joe.
I'm sorry that I've been a party to this junior high stuff and allowed myself to remain involved. That said, I don't like bullies and I sure don't like being called a liar. I'll make every effort to avoid derailing this thread going forward.
Have the twist rates in your rifles be sufficient to cleanly stabilize the heavy VLD type bullets. There is no point in producing a product that will not stabilize today's modern bullets and there are no adverse effects to doing so. Those that buy your products that shoot older vintage more conventional bullets will not know the difference and there will be no reduction in accuracy:
.224 bullets - 8" twist .243 bullets - 8" twist .257 bullets - 9" twist, or maybe even 8" More manufacturers are starting to come out with longer, heavier VLD type bullets. .264 bullets - 8" twist .284" bullets - 8.75" twist .308 - 10" twist
Have your chambers throated so that the shooter (hand loader) can reach the lands at magazine length with said VLD type bullets. This will only guarantee you more sales from the true enthusiest and will cost you no sales to the average Joe.
I believe that to have been pointed out plainly and very early in the Thread.(grin)
If only because it is beyond obvious,to them who shoot even a smidge.
I've a hunch,that bullets matter more than headstamps...no matter what The Hollywood Hunter or Boddington "think".
FUNNY schit!............
Ringmam,
You Clueless Kchunt,you couldn't poor piss out of a boot,let alone knock the new off a used pair.
If only for starters..............
UFO Nig,
The ease in which you lie and your comfort in same,is beyond impressive. Only fair to mention too,that noone can "bully" you Dumbfhuqks better than you can,by simply doing your "best".
You'd be served well to shut the fhuqk up,take notes and apply same...but here's to the hilarity of your being devoid an inkling to reliably connecting that many dots and a devoted preference to Imagine and Pretend instead. Congratulations?!?
One thing is for certain about you Window Licking Clueless Kchunts and that is when it's all said and done,that there is going to have been a LOT more said...than done. Bless your heart.
You remain upon the most slippery of slopes and that being forced by default to use your "knowledge","experience" and "results" as a relative "barometer" of "evaluation" and thus your eager propensity to be a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit. Funny how it actually works and I mean fhuqking FUNNY! Extry humor points awarded,for taking the time to reiterate your Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schititude,by "explaining" how it all makes "sense" to. You fhuqking Democrats are a fhuqking hoot!
Now knock it out of the Park again and dangle a picture of yourself,if only to correlate the crossed-eyes and drooling maw,then perhaps "boast" how that too is on "purpose". I'm fhuqking crying,I'm laughing so gawwdamned fhuqking hard.
Just oh sooooooo WOW!
PS...
GOOD fhuqking call,to have never even mentioned a word through your quivering lips,about anything The Rifle.
I "wonder" why that is?!?
Looking forward to the next Whine,nearly as much as the next Lie.
Laughing!...............
Jordan,
As cited prior a 1-10" SAAMI 7-08 at 20",will pinwheel 162 A-Max at low tide on The Milford. 9" is plenty and I've a bunch of them. Though 8" trumps 12".(grin)
In a three-oh-not-so great...8" would get the subsonic nod,but 12" will pinwheel 208'Max at low tide on The Milford. Sadly,I've shot wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more three-oh-not-so great,than I wanna admit to and 10" remains my favorite flavor there,but subs' are of zero interest to me personally.
COAL is gonna slam the three-oh-not-so great,harder than the Magnificent Seven.
THE Giant Slayer 243,being even friendlier yet.................
Yep, I don't see a 308 getting near a secant ogive VLD in the lands at magazine length with a throat passing SAAMI muster, which I believe a commercial manufacturer will have to satisfy.
Throat/twist/COAL geometry are easily arranged...but "Legendary" sure as fhuqk ain't gonna connect them dots.
If only obviously.
Jordan',
30's ain't nearly as maligned as lesser diameters and have been wayyyyyyyyy "over" twisted for many moons. 9" would give the Subsonic Faction some traction.
Not too "surprisingly" none of the Whining Kchunts have muttered a word in regards to their rifle's "particulars". Prolly a VERY good fhuqking call,as they'd of been rubbing their own noses even further,in their INCREDIBLE fhuqking Stupidity.
Funny how it actually works.
UFO Nig,
Cheer up...noone is going to trump your Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit "approach",let alone your fhuqking amazing Stupidity. Your cup runneth over and here's to the sweet "satisfactions" that are your's,due them facts.
Bitchin' job on the Imaginary Pretend Ignore,you really know how to make a "stand"!
Laffin'!
It remains a shame,that you cain't begin to savvy your Incredible Dumbfhuqktitude and far you are in over your head.
Keep the pics coming.
Re-laffin'!
taylor',
2.85" grants copious opportunity...but Legendary went FULL Fhuqking Retard on all of it.
It takes all of ten minutes to test a twist. It is not emotion, it is science.
I had some 65gr v-maxes loaded up for a 243 sitting in the closet. I wanted the brass, so I took them out and shot them through my 7 twist. They shot great too.
In Bryan Litz' book 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting', he outlines some of the most prominent factors affecting the modern rifle's ability to perform beyond close and medium ranges. Two of those factors are....you guessed it.....COAL constraints and twist rate. He also discusses throating. It's a good read that takes a Myth Busters' approach to dealing with some of these misunderstood topics.
Here's an excerpt:
In this image the circles are factory offerings, and the black dots are the average factory offered twist rates for each caliber. He discusses velocity in the RPM requirement, as well, but focuses on showing that in general most factory twist rates are too slow.
"These twist rates between normal and fast are just what’s required to shoot the bullets with adequate stability...There are measurable performance benefits which result from super- stabilizing bullets. In particular, the effects of super stability can suppress the magnitude of limit cycle yaw which can allow the bullet to fly with less induced drag and higher BC’s especially at transonic speeds."
"...giving the mass produced rifle a faster twist so it can shoot higher BC bullets doesn’t hurt anything. With a 1:8” twist, you can shoot any bullet from light weight varmint bullets up to the high BC 105’s. Likewise extending action and magazine length in repeaters is something that only makes a rifle more versatile by allowing it to shoot high performance long range ammo as well as short and medium range options."
Hopefully the manufacturers start to take notes and apply same *grin*
In my book Titled: "Bajillions Of Rounds Fired"...I mention that I've long had an affinity for Reseve RPM and for more than a couple/few reasons,which also happen to be facts.
I also mention that the ONLY way to connect dots,is via the harmonious melding of twist/throat/COAL.
Haven't been stating same,for much more 3 decades.
I can only lead 'em to water...and would refuse to make 'em drink,even if I could.............(grin)
2.85" is good for me. I have another 6mm build planned when I'm done with my training program at work, but I'd buy an off the shelf .243 Win if it had an 8 twist barrel throated for the majority of 105's to be close enough to kiss, and that will feed reliably at 2.8" COAL. An off the shelf .243 set up this way would save me a nice chunk of change in the long run.
I throated my last 7 twist .243 for 115's which it shot very well both Berger and DTAC, but I had an easier time stocking 105 Hornady and Berger bullets, which it shot equally as well but faster. The 6 Creed intrigues me but I'll probably go back with the .243 since I have piles of brass or give the BR a try. I'm just in the planning phase anyway, any parts collecting will be a few months off yet.
In Bryan Litz' book 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting', he outlines some of the most prominent factors affecting the modern rifle's ability to perform beyond close and medium ranges. Two of those factors are....you guessed it.....COAL constraints and twist rate. He also discusses throating. It's a good read that takes a Myth Busters' approach to dealing with some of these misunderstood topics.
Here's an excerpt:
In this image the circles are factory offerings, and the black dots are the average factory offered twist rates for each caliber. He discusses velocity in the RPM requirement, as well, but focuses on showing that in general most factory twist rates are too slow.
"These twist rates between normal and fast are just what’s required to shoot the bullets with adequate stability...There are measurable performance benefits which result from super- stabilizing bullets. In particular, the effects of super stability can suppress the magnitude of limit cycle yaw which can allow the bullet to fly with less induced drag and higher BC’s especially at transonic speeds."
"...giving the mass produced rifle a faster twist so it can shoot higher BC bullets doesn’t hurt anything. With a 1:8” twist, you can shoot any bullet from light weight varmint bullets up to the high BC 105’s. Likewise extending action and magazine length in repeaters is something that only makes a rifle more versatile by allowing it to shoot high performance long range ammo as well as short and medium range options."
Hopefully the manufacturers start to take notes and apply same *grin*
In my book Titled: "Bajillions Of Rounds Fired"...I mention that I've long had an affinity for Reseve RPM and for more than a couple/few reasons,which also happen to be facts.
I also mention that the ONLY way to connect dots,is via the harmonious melding of twist/throat/COAL.
Haven't been stating same,for much more 3 decades.
I can only lead 'em to water...and would refuse to make 'em drink,even if I could.............(grin)
In Bryan Litz' book 'Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting', he outlines some of the most prominent factors affecting the modern rifle's ability to perform beyond close and medium ranges. Two of those factors are....you guessed it.....COAL constraints and twist rate. He also discusses throating. It's a good read that takes a Myth Busters' approach to dealing with some of these misunderstood topics.
Here's an excerpt:
In this image the circles are factory offerings, and the black dots are the average factory offered twist rates for each caliber. He discusses velocity in the RPM requirement, as well, but focuses on showing that in general most factory twist rates are too slow.
"These twist rates between normal and fast are just what’s required to shoot the bullets with adequate stability...There are measurable performance benefits which result from super- stabilizing bullets. In particular, the effects of super stability can suppress the magnitude of limit cycle yaw which can allow the bullet to fly with less induced drag and higher BC’s especially at transonic speeds."
"...giving the mass produced rifle a faster twist so it can shoot higher BC bullets doesn’t hurt anything. With a 1:8” twist, you can shoot any bullet from light weight varmint bullets up to the high BC 105’s. Likewise extending action and magazine length in repeaters is something that only makes a rifle more versatile by allowing it to shoot high performance long range ammo as well as short and medium range options."
Hopefully the manufacturers start to take notes and apply same *grin*
I'm glad somebody finally got a chart posted....
Seriously. I couldn't stand it any longer. Somebody had to do it
In my book Titled: "Bajillions Of Rounds Fired"...I mention that I've long had an affinity for Reseve RPM and for more than a couple/few reasons,which also happen to be facts.
I also mention that the ONLY way to connect dots,is via the harmonious melding of twist/throat/COAL.
Haven't been stating same,for much more 3 decades.
I can only lead 'em to water...and would refuse to make 'em drink,even if I could.............(grin)
Sounds like a good read
Curiously enough it seems like the same hints keep getting dropped by numerous sources, but nobody's playing catch...and nobody's thirsty...
News flash. A big percentage of the members here have figured out the relationship between twist rate, bullet weight and mag box and chamber dimensions a long time ago. But there is some comic relief listening to those thinking they're some kind of messiah on all this. lmao And I'll go right out on a limb here and guess that every rifle maker has knowledge of this as well The question is do they want to sell for factory ammo and Joe six pack (biggest % of the market) or include those that want to squeeze what they can out of the package via their handloads. These guys obviously are at least asking the questions of the later. Good on them.
News flash. A big percentage of the members here have figured out the relationship between twist rate, bullet weight and mag box and chamber dimensions a long time ago. But there is some comic relief listening to those thinking they're some kind of messiah on all this. lmao And I'll go right out on a limb here and guess that every rifle maker has knowledge of this as well The question is do they want to sell for factory ammo and Joe six pack (biggest % of the market) or include those that want to squeeze what they can out of the package via their handloads. These guys obviously are at least asking the questions of the later. Good on them.
The highlighted sentence gives the impression you believe satisfying the latter would somehow negatively affect the former.
There had to be some method to their "madness" because their 26 Nosler is twisted 1-8" so I'll just assume they went, for the most part, with SAMMI specs. Why else would you twist a 7-08 in 1-9 ish, a 7mm Mag in 1-9 ish, 280 in 1-9 ish and then twist the 280 Ackley in 1-10" ?
News flash. A big percentage of the members here have figured out the relationship between twist rate, bullet weight and mag box and chamber dimensions a long time ago. But there is some comic relief listening to those thinking they're some kind of messiah on all this. lmao And I'll go right out on a limb here and guess that every rifle maker has knowledge of this as well The question is do they want to sell for factory ammo and Joe six pack (biggest % of the market) or include those that want to squeeze what they can out of the package via their handloads. These guys obviously are at least asking the questions of the later. Good on them.
The highlighted sentence gives the impression you believe satisfying the latter would somehow negatively affect the former.
No not at all they can serve both real easy just go with fast twists. But a lot of the FA industry seems slow to grasp this but it seems to be changing a bit lately. Real long throats could potentially take away from the best accuracy with factory length ammo though. But the twist is a no brainer
Once manufactures figure out the trinity they'll have it licked Twist, mag constraint and throat I'm not holding my breath
MRC utilizes a 3.125" mag box in short actions. In a 260 and 308, I've yet to encounter a bullet that will not jam into the lands and still load into the mag box. They will run twist rates as requested. There is a group buy in progress in the Hunting Rifle section with details. The 1:10 is standard for the 308 and will run anything a 308 can push, and 1:9 for 260, but the group buy is for 1:8.
News flash. A big percentage of the members here have figured out the relationship between twist rate, bullet weight and mag box and chamber dimensions a long time ago. But there is some comic relief listening to those thinking they're some kind of messiah on all this. lmao And I'll go right out on a limb here and guess that every rifle maker has knowledge of this as well The question is do they want to sell for factory ammo and Joe six pack (biggest % of the market) or include those that want to squeeze what they can out of the package via their handloads. These guys obviously are at least asking the questions of the later. Good on them.
The highlighted sentence gives the impression you believe satisfying the latter would somehow negatively affect the former.
No not at all they can serve both real easy just go with fast twists. But a lot of the FA industry seems slow to grasp this but it seems to be changing a bit lately. Real long throats could potentially take away from the best accuracy with factory length ammo though. But the twist is a no brainer
Someone who "knows" and "does" as "much" as you,is ALWAYS gonna be best served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers". Rest assured that it is ONLY fhuqking funny,because you are doing your "best".
A few 1000 words on them "real long" throats that are "requisite" for the GOOD stuff.
No need to yet again obliviously reiterate your INCREDIBLE fhuqking cluelessness,though you most certainly will. Laughing!
Lemme letcha' in on a little "secret"...it's hardly "daunting" to connect all dots,less concession. Funniest part is,none of you Dumb Fhuqkers would have a fhuqking clue.
Hint.
Bless your heart,you AMAZINGLY stupid fhuqk.................
Jordan,
It is in fact,a rather fabulous read................(grin)
338',
While the inherent humor of a Chart is indeed tough to top,pics of these "hard chargers' will of course reliably trump same and take Hilarity to the next level.(grin)
Though for some reason,these Lippy Clueless Kchunts is a touch uneasy in danglin' pics,but at least Imagination and Pretend are priced within their "means".
Laughing!...............
'17,
Bang for the Buck is very easily arranged and that pun,is of course intended.
Pass the A-Max.
Hint.................
math',
Don't go stealing her Imagination or Pretend...if only because it's ALL she's got and that would be mean.
Let's just hope the cat don't get her tongue,nor the couch her kchunt..................(grin)
'george,
Some get thangs right and key is,to know who do and who don't.
And most importantly WHY.............
'finn,
It's still SAAMI.
Just sayin'.....................
(An Addendum for one of THE dumbest of fhuqks)
Salty,
Sweetheart...you are doing "great"! Your keen "insight" is a fhuqking hoot! PLEASE change your story as you deem fit,in order to convince yourself that you've the foggiest of notions,in regards to these most simplistic of matters. Laughing!
I'll feign my "surprise" that with "all" you think you "know",even someone as fhuqking incredibly stupid as you,KNEW better than to cite a single bullet or a single chambering. LOVE your pics too. Re-laughing!
It remains a crying shame,that you are the only one who doesn't know how far you are in over your pointy fhuqking head.
P.S. and by the way,it is still "realize"...just sayin'. Laughing!
Who chews your food for you?!?
Wow +P+!
Looking forward to more fresh Excuses and to marvel at how "real" your Imagination and it's Pretend are to you. Perhaps consider going FULL Retard and threaten Imaginary Pretend Ignore,to really put a scald on what you've got going on.
Someone who "knows" and "does" as "much" as you,is ALWAYS gonna be best served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers". Rest assured that it is ONLY fhuqking funny,because you are doing your "best".
A few 1000 words on them "real long" throats that are "requisite" for the GOOD stuff.
No need to yet again obliviously reiterate your INCREDIBLE fhuqking cluelessness,though you most certainly will. Laughing!
Lemme letcha' in on a little "secret"...it's hardly "daunting" to connect all dots,less concession. Funniest part is,none of you Dumb Fhuqkers would have a fhuqking clue.
Hint.
Bless your heart,you AMAZINGLY stupid fhuqk.................
*Yawn* A barrage of your usual cut and paste insults and the only information in your diatribe is a picture of bullets. To counter what I said on throats I take it? Focus dude. I said shorter OAL rounds may not agree with the longest throats. Key word may. But I'm wasting my time aren't I you're just here to for the trolling, the drama and to dish out your tired old two bit insults especially when you're beat at your own game of BS. Guess its worth watching the train wreck when things are slow anyways, its all good..
You're right about the Amax and I recently lucked into a coupla' thousand, 168 grainers in 30 cal. They've got green tips, but for some queer reason they were near giving them away!
Real long throats could potentially take away from the best accuracy with factory length ammo though.
Then what brought on this comment?
We were discussing the whys and why nots of having the best chamnber design (long to take advantage of today's long high BC bullets) and the best twist rate to accommodate these heavier bullets and thinking out loud I threw out what this might mean to Joe 6 pack who is stuck with only factory ammo. I said going with a nice fast twist rate would have no ill effects for Joe 6 pack or anyone else, its a slam dunk. Then I said the above, that going beyond SAAMI throat length may not work the optimum for SAAMI (factory) length ammo. That was nit picking, a "what if" type take on the matter. All I meant is the twist is a no brainer, throat design not necessarily. ie how much of a jump will the bullets be happy with, you'd have to experiment and see.
I realise now I should have left the last bit out I've just muddied the waters with nit picking there. Apologies to all for lack of clarity. Even Big Stick, sort of.
We were discussing the whys and why nots of having the best chamnber design (long to take advantage of today's long high BC bullets) and the best twist rate to accommodate these heavier bullets and thinking out loud I threw out what this might mean to Joe 6 pack who is stuck with only factory ammo. I said going with a nice fast twist rate would have no ill effects for Joe 6 pack or anyone else, its a slam dunk. Then I said the above, that going beyond SAAMI throat length may not work the optimum for SAAMI (factory) length ammo. That was nit picking, a "what if" type take on the matter. All I meant is the twist is a no brainer, throat design not necessarily. ie how much of a jump will the bullets be happy with, you'd have to experiment and see.
I realise now I should have left the last bit out I've just muddied the waters with nit picking there. Apologies to all for lack of clarity. Even Big Stick, sort of.
We were discussing the whys and why nots of having the best chamnber design (long to take advantage of today's long high BC bullets) and the best twist rate to accommodate these heavier bullets and thinking out loud I threw out what this might mean to Joe 6 pack who is stuck with only factory ammo. I said going with a nice fast twist rate would have no ill effects for Joe 6 pack or anyone else, its a slam dunk. Then I said the above, that going beyond SAAMI throat length may not work the optimum for SAAMI (factory) length ammo. That was nit picking, a "what if" type take on the matter. All I meant is the twist is a no brainer, throat design not necessarily. ie how much of a jump will the bullets be happy with, you'd have to experiment and see.
I realise now I should have left the last bit out I've just muddied the waters with nit picking there. Apologies to all for lack of clarity. Even Big Stick, sort of.
The highlighted parts are what suggest you don't have a handle on it yet. The long VLD type bullets often need a shorter throat.
We were discussing the whys and why nots of having the best chamnber design (long to take advantage of today's long high BC bullets) and the best twist rate to accommodate these heavier bullets and thinking out loud I threw out what this might mean to Joe 6 pack who is stuck with only factory ammo. I said going with a nice fast twist rate would have no ill effects for Joe 6 pack or anyone else, its a slam dunk. Then I said the above, that going beyond SAAMI throat length may not work the optimum for SAAMI (factory) length ammo. That was nit picking, a "what if" type take on the matter. All I meant is the twist is a no brainer, throat design not necessarily. ie how much of a jump will the bullets be happy with, you'd have to experiment and see.
I realise now I should have left the last bit out I've just muddied the waters with nit picking there. Apologies to all for lack of clarity. Even Big Stick, sort of.
The highlighted parts are what suggest you don't have a handle on it yet. The long VLD type bullets often need a shorter throat.
OK I get that but help me out here, why are longer than normal throats used by some? Is that just a local thing around here? And I thought that type of design is what was being discussed a couple pages back.
There is magazine length and then there is throat length.
For example, I shoot a lot of 308 Win. rounds, and I'd love it if my Remington 700 rifles had a bit longer magazines and shorter throats at the same time.
OK I'll take the dumb ass award now. Looking at some of the long range bullets drawings I see what you mean that although long the bearing surface isn't they require a short throat. Thanks for setting me straight. I'll go downstairs and sort out my interlocks now...
Real long throats could potentially take away from the best accuracy with factory length ammo though.
Then what brought on this comment?
We were discussing the whys and why nots of having the best chamnber design (long to take advantage of today's long high BC bullets) and the best twist rate to accommodate these heavier bullets and thinking out loud I threw out what this might mean to Joe 6 pack who is stuck with only factory ammo. I said going with a nice fast twist rate would have no ill effects for Joe 6 pack or anyone else, its a slam dunk. Then I said the above, that going beyond SAAMI throat length may not work the optimum for SAAMI (factory) length ammo. That was nit picking, a "what if" type take on the matter. All I meant is the twist is a no brainer, throat design not necessarily. ie how much of a jump will the bullets be happy with, you'd have to experiment and see.
I realise now I should have left the last bit out I've just muddied the waters with nit picking there. Apologies to all for lack of clarity. Even Big Stick, sort of.
I remember back when John Burns, owner of Grey Bull rifles, came here and he too wanted to keep the barrel maker confidential. Similar type thread as this one with lots of folks, including me, breaking his balls about the barrel maker. One day I just said, well we know that he is using one of the top flight barrel makers and there are no secret barrel makers out there that I'm aware of, so I stopped participating in the back and forth. So the bottom line is his rifles are very accurate and these new rifles come with an accuracy guarantee (I think it's sub MOA but I'm not sure).
I read "top secret" barrel maker as its probably not one you'd wait in line to buy. If it was, it'd be printed in bold.
Exactly! Keeping the barrel maker confidential means that it's not something to brag about. Probably accurate? Yeah. Considered among the best? Not likely.
The guy who runs Accuracy Systems, Inc. (Ruger Mini-14 conversions) keeps his barrel maker a secret too and his guns are phenomenally accurate and just fine in the barrel wear department. It shouldn't be a deal killer, 'specially given Legendary's price point.
They just might want the flexibility to change suppliers without having to start a new thread on here.
Originally Posted by EdM
How much would one expect them to pay for a barrel given the price of the rifle?
I think that these last two quotes probably have a lot to do with it. Most of the AR rifle companies advertise exactly the same way as LAW is and nobody seems to get horned up about it. Someone mentioned GAP rifles and to my knowledge the least expensive rifle they make is 3 grand and it wears a B&C stock as well. It does have a custom action though.
You poor poor STUPID Fhuqker...ain't it poignantly poetic,that your Dumbfhuqktitude is sooooooooooo fhuqking glaring,that even someone as fhuqking Stupid as you can discern same?!? Laughing!
I get a kick outta you "hard chargers" and all the energy you expend trying to convince yourselves that you've a first fhuqking clue. FUNNY schit! Just how in the fhuqk were you able to fhuqk up crystalline pics and still stick all of your feet in your mouth and your head even further up your ass? Now THAT was fhuqking impressive! Holy Schit WOW +P+!!!
Take it to the fhuqking bank,that if I take the time to type it,you'd be WELL served to apply it,especially if you don't understand it. Hint. Now read that again. One more time. Laughing!
Still curious to know who chews your food for you?
You'll haveta' pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess.
Here's another 1000 words for you to fhuqk up,which will sail over your pointy head.
Bless your heart....................
math',
I very much enjoyed your taking the time to highlight with different colors and granting her opportunity to flounder even more and dig the ditches deeper.
Groovin' on your sense of humor!................(grin)
'247,
Barrel/throat "secrets" and the "proprietary" Secret Squirrel Schit are glaring indicators,if only obviously.
At least on a 700,there are numerous moves to connect dots and a DBM digesting AICS mags,prolly don't suck too bad,though there are them who canslum a Wyatt. Big green's OEM 243's are rather nice.
Nawwwwwwww...nicer than that................(grin)
'Finn,
You know you is on THE most slippery of slopes and atop the skinniest of limbs,if the lying piece of schit Burns is your Trump Card. Extry extry points awarded for Humor though and saying sumptin' that fhuqking funny,with a straight face. Kudos!
I have it on good authority that George and crew will happily use whatever barrel you wish and throat it as per your whim,though it's apparently "fashionable" in this Age,to muse that such things "don't matter".
Despite few things mattering more.
Hint.................
'Bore,
The Hollywood Hunter digs 'em.
Laughing!.............
Jordan,
It IS funnier than fhuqk that Ms. Reed was all fhuqking giddy to wax eloquent on the Goat Fhuqk...yet ran away at FULL fhuqking throttle,when asked simplistic questions at the crux,that were/are beyond germane.
Telling.
I mean VERY fhuqking telling.
Run Forrest...run!...................
bob',
They are selling Snake Oil to THE Clueless.
Nothing more,nothing less and the ploy(s) are hardly "new".
Joe Average sure in the fhuqk,ain't very bright.
Just ask Salty!
Laughing!.................
Now if only for conversation and sumptin' that only the astute will savvy.
Here's an oft maligned OEM spout,that had zero issues with it's bore,but was a victim of both it's chambering tolerances and it's throat geometry,in relation to it's COAL.
Setback,punched out and the simplistic kiss,find pressure and rocking on...that ain't not never borned fruit(though I've only done so in 100's of barrels).
Ahhhhhhh the virtues of finite headspace control and throat/twist/COAL dot connection(s).
Ok, I'll concede that the Turnkey wonder wasn't my best option for examples.... However, I believe I've said this many times already in this thread, that they have way more barrels twisted "right" then wrong. Of course that still leaves the nagging question of whether or not these rifles have harmonious (perfect) COAL/throat relationships for those who shoot one bullet per rifle (ie the longest). Man.....tuff crowd.......
My apologies for the very delayed responses, lots of activity here and makes it hard to keep up with the forums we belong to while building guns. Scrolling back some pages I tried to capture questions and comments and will respond below. The Web site is really the best place to go for information about our rifles.
Twist rates: after multiple discussion with Mark, the management team and our gunsmiths as well as others in the field we have made changes to many of the twist rates, all faster. The rates can be seen on the individual rifle pages or the details spreadsheet for each rifle for example here: Closer-Full specifications sheet
A few of the forum members have commented to the effect that most shooters are not overly concerned with twist rate and we believe that to be true. This forum has members who are dedicated, technically savvy shooters who do pursue accuracy levels that may exceed 80% of the rifles on the market and we appreciate and genuinely consider their experiences. Our rifles are being built for hunters primarily, with the long range, tactical and varmint guns coming in the future. That is not to say that we should not strive for a greater level of accuracy in a hunting gun simply because of its use, but in reality modern barrel manufacture, CNC machining and knowledge of what makes a rifle shoot accurately have clearly changed the standards for most rifles. We believe ours meet and nearly always exceed those standards within the realm of producing an above average production rifle. Our target market was described in my first post, shooters who are looking for something the next step up from most of the production rifles out there with a great price point.
Chamber throats: All chamber throats will be cut to SAAMI specs, anything else becomes a custom rifle and will necessitate a higher price.
Accuracy Guarantee: I will be adding specific language as to our MOA accuracy gurantee this week to the Web site. Essentially we guarantee 3 shot MOA accuracy and will make it right if the rifle does not perform to our standards.
Barrel Source:: We realize that this information is important to many dedicated shooters but our business practice is to approach barrels (and all components of the rifle) against an accuracy standard. We do not want to box ourselves into specific manufacturers of the parts that we don't make, which are few. We have strict guidelines and specs on all the components of the rifle and will not deviate even if it means finding another supplier. We all know that any barrel manufacturer can produce a bad barrel from time to time, just ask them and we have. The rifles shoot or we will fix it.
Other comments: We had a booth at the Great American Outdoor show in Harrisburg Pa 2 weeks ago and the response to our guns was overwhelming so that is telling us we believe we are on the right path. I think we could have sold 100 rifles if we had them in stock that week. We have had other experiences getting our rifles into the shooting community hands and the response is the same. Dealers and distributors are placing orders as well as customers so while we are taking great pains to not become overly enthusiastic and fool ourselves, one has to go on the data you are presented. I pass this information not in a manner to brag, but more to convey that we are listening and changing to meet the market as we can.
There have been a few comments something to effect of LAW being marketers etc. Certainly one of the goals of the new company is to make money. While I think we have tough skins at Legendary Arms Works I can assuredly state that the company is made of dedicated, enthusiastic shooters from young to old and varying experiences..even as one poster implied a "low level employee" like me . The passion that runs through all of us is to produce a 100% totally American Made and assembled rifle that each of us would want to own and I think we are on the path to doing so. BTW-we are serious when we say 100 % American made...we recently learned that the sling swivel studs we were using, made by a major accessory maker that we all know, were made in Vietnam. While they may be of acceptable quality, we immediately discontinued their use, found another American supplier and ending up saving $0.02 on each of them and replaced the foreign made studs...
Sometimes the passion runs high on this forum and we can understand that when you get two shooters in a room, even if virtual, the conversation can get interesting to say the least. I can appreciate the spirit of discussion and as I have stated in numerous posts we greatly appreciate all the feedback. I am trying to keep our Website up to date and we are working on FAQs and some other information.
Twist rates: after multiple discussion with Mark, the management team and our gunsmiths as well as others in the field we have made changes to many of the twist rates, all faster. The rates can be seen on the individual rifle pages or the details spreadsheet for each rifle for example here: Closer-Full specifications sheet A few of the forum members have commented to the effect that most shooters are not overly concerned with twist rate and we believe that to be true. This forum has members who are dedicated, technically savvy shooters who do pursue accuracy levels that may exceed 80% of the rifles on the market and we appreciate and genuinely consider their experiences. Our rifles are being built for hunters primarily, with the long range, tactical and varmint guns coming in the future. That is not to say that we should not strive for a greater level of accuracy in a hunting gun simply because of its use, but in reality modern barrel manufacture, CNC machining and knowledge of what makes a rifle shoot accurately have clearly changed the standards for most rifles. We believe ours meet and nearly always exceed those standards within the realm of producing an above average production rifle. Our target market was described in my first post, shooters who are looking for something the next step up from most of the production rifles out there with a great price point.
This still begs the question: If most shooters are not concerned with twist rate, how will they be negatively affected by you satisfying those shooters who are concerned?
You remain an INCREDIBLY Clueless Dumbfhuqk and are making Salty look "bright". Laffin'!
"Secret" barrels and botched twist rates are a coupla amazingly STUPID fhuqking moves,from any/all angles. No schit...1-12" on a 22-250? How bad did you Dumb Fhuqkers shim it's COAL in comparison to the 243?!? Hang a picture of a 22-250 magbox/follower,if only for laughs.
Do tell about the great "thought",years of "experience" and countless years of field "results",that led you and your Paper Hat Brigade,to purposely field a 22-250(which is a 1.900" case) that will shoot less than half of these bullets,with 2.800"+ being on tap in regards COAL potential? Mebbe wax eloquent on the relationship(s) of same,when using your SAAMI throat geometry. Use as much Imagination as you deem requisite,to PRETEND you've a fhuqking clue! Laffin'!
Mebbe call Boddington?!? Re-laffin'! Ask her why a $600 AR will happily pinwheel the works?!? PLEASE share them "findings". Laffin'!
I realize that it sails wellllllllllllllllll over your crossed-eyes,furrowed brow and pointy fhuqking head,but you Dumbfhuqks could have your cake and eat it too and it's only funny because you are oblivious to the ease in how to arrange same.
Nothing funnier than Clueless Fhuqking Bean Counters trying to "spec" a rifle,then making a FULL Fhuqking Retard "Stand" on how their colossal Dumbfhuqkery is somehow an "aspiration" to strive for. FUNNY schit! You are in soooooooooooo fhuqking far over your head,that it is simply gawdammned fhuqking amazing.
Does The Hollywood Hunter chew your food for you?!?
How in THE fhuqk,do you not know a single fhuqking thing,about a single fhuqking thing,yet are the "spokesperson"?!? This is THE Funniest schit in fhuqking Ages! Just ohhhhhhhhhhhh sooooooooooooo WOW +P+!!!
You Stupid Fhuqkers are selling V-8's,running on 5 cylinders (the other 3 welded shut)and are patting yourselves on the back,at the keen "insight" that went into such decisions. Just how "loud" is your Imagination,when you "shoot" it?!?
Legendary Arms Works is a Jerry Lewis Telethon,but keep telling yourselves that you are doing "great" and really "know" about rifles.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
Hint.
Your Stupidity is mind numbing in both it's depth and volume.
Congratulations?!?
Bullets matter more than headstamps. Read that again. Now one more time.
You'd be WELL served to print this Post and show it to your Paper Hat Brigade.
I'd be curious to see how many on this thread will lay out the jingle to actually buy one....
I won't that's for sure. I'm wanting an 8" or faster twist 6mm caliber rifle that I can push 105's to 2900-3000 fps. I'll either build or wait to see what SAS is able to do on his MRC group buy.
Why buy what you don't want? MRC is putting out special runs per shortactionsmoker that do pay attention to the trinity, and for less $ I'll liken this to someone telling the captain of the Titanic that there's an iceberg ahead, go hard to port and all will be well... instead he hitting the throttle to full steam ahead steady as she goes
With the way the costs have risen, getting to the point where it's cheaper to get your own lathe and go at it if you like to have more than one nice rifle.
You get to have it your way then.
(I know someone will come on here with spreadsheets and the like showing me I'm FOS but it's a general statement)
Mr. Reed, thanks for coming on here and updating us in spite of folks like Boxer. Please ignore him. It's a shame the moderators don't ban his sorry ass.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Boxer, since you are so damn smart why do you not work for a firearms company? Why do you not make your own custom rifles? Why are you not a writer for a major publication? Have you authored any books? What claim to fame do you have in life besides being a horrible example for your son, and an all around worthless POS? Have you ever actually done anything in your life that mattered? You ever serve in the military or law enforcement? Have you ever given anything back to your community?
No one doubts your knowledge, but why do you have to be such an a$$ on here?
Why do you get so upset over trivial matters? Never mind, I guess when you don't have anything else in your pathetic life besides your guns and your keyboard it's pretty easy to get all torqued about stupid things......especially when no one listens to you.
I'm tired of arguing about all this nonsense. If you or boxer or anyone else on here don't care for LAW products, no one is going to force you to buy them. I've ordered one, and I'll let you guys know my thoughts when I recieve it. As a side note, this thread should probably be moved to the hunting rifles forum, as LAW rifles are not custom guns, they are production rifles.
I'm thinking a small company could cater to the "nich" market and do very well for themselves.All the while marketing to the masses that dont have a single clue. Win/win
Rifles and proper rings/bases, NO ONE is doing them right.
Thats why the custom market is so big i suppose..but even in the custom market its hard to get a ring/base combo made.
Also a little jealous of the FWB, never seen/knew stick had one.Uncle of mine has one and it does [bleep] that cant be done! incredible 177's.
Of course I'd gauge how to build a rifle by the Harrisburg, PA show. Because NO one knows about shooting like Yankees.
[bleep], this thread is epic.
Well, historically the best firearms have been made in NY, CT , and MA!
For factory rifles, yes. However, that's like saying that the best race drivers are from the Great Lakes since historically Ford, Chevy, and Dodge cars were made there.
I think NASCAR records might prove a bit otherwise, though.
Yankees who have beaten Tubbs are members of my club; definitely Yankees.
I could cite lots more examples.
In traveling around the continent to hunt, I have seen guys who gas piped from....well......every where. Geographic origin has had almost nothing to do with it.
Twist rates: after multiple discussion with Mark, the management team and our gunsmiths as well as others in the field we have made changes to many of the twist rates, all faster. The rates can be seen on the individual rifle pages or the details spreadsheet for each rifle for example here: Closer-Full specifications sheet
Twist rates: after multiple discussion with Mark, the management team and our gunsmiths as well as others in the field we have made changes to many of the twist rates, all faster. The rates can be seen on the individual rifle pages or the details spreadsheet for each rifle for example here: Closer-Full specifications sheet
Yankees who have beaten Tubbs are members of my club; definitely Yankees.
I could cite lots more examples.
In traveling around the continent to hunt, I have seen guys who gas piped from....well......every where. Geographic origin has had almost nothing to do with it.
I agree completely, Fudd's are the R&D I'd want. Nothing spells great R&D like a bunch of Fudd's with a 9 day rifle season.
Twist rates: after multiple discussion with Mark, the management team and our gunsmiths as well as others in the field we have made changes to many of the twist rates, all faster. The rates can be seen on the individual rifle pages or the details spreadsheet for each rifle for example here: Closer-Full specifications sheet
Fail.
Indeed
It might be worth looking at on the used market for the basis of a rebarrel if you want a sub .24 caliber option. The .24s could be better, but the .22s are just screwed.
Of course I'd gauge how to build a rifle by the Harrisburg, PA show. Because NO one knows about shooting like Yankees.
[bleep], this thread is epic.
Well, historically the best firearms have been made in NY, CT , and MA!
For factory rifles, yes. However, that's like saying that the best race drivers are from the Great Lakes since historically Ford, Chevy, and Dodge cars were made there.
I think NASCAR records might prove a bit otherwise, though.
Exactly. The best NASCAR drivers are from California.
Exactly. The best NASCAR drivers are from California.
You mentioned history.
I believe that historically, the best drivers are from North Carolina (Lee Petty, Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, Ned Jarrett, Junior Johnson), South Carolina (Buddy Baker, David Pearson, and Cale Yarborough) and Florida (Bobby Allison, Davey Allison, and Fireball Roberts).
Everything but the 22-250 looks good to me on that spec sheet. I'd take a 1-8" over a 1-9", but the 1-9" will still spin most good 105s in a 243 (105 HPBT, 105 A-Max, 105 VLD...)
I think suggested retail is $1399 for the closer. And yes, I hated to do business with someone in the communist republic of Maryland, but LAW didn't have any dealers set up in NC yet.
I think suggested retail is $1399 for the closer. And yes, I hated to do business with someone in the communist republic of Maryland, but LAW didn't have any dealers set up in NC yet.
Ok. I must have misread your other post. I thought you were saying they were $3K.
Hope she shoots for you. Give a review once you get it. If I were going to pick one it would have been the .243 as well.
It's not really about ballistics, twist or throat to them, it's about contractual obligations.
If you want to manufacture anything, you have to estimate demand and order at least a year in advance from your suppliers. A barrel maker won't gear up to deliver several thousand barrels to your door without iron-clad contracts in place. There may be an option for changes, but the added cost for that will be specified in the contract as well.
So a major issue at play is that LAW likely already bought and committed to buying and ordered barrels in the various twists they originally thought the market would want based on what other manufacturers are currently offering.
If they change specs mid-stream what would they do with all the unwanted barrels?
Everything but the 22-250 looks good to me on that spec sheet. I'd take a 1-8" over a 1-9", but the 1-9" will still spin most good 105s in a 243 (105 HPBT, 105 A-Max, 105 VLD...)
It's not really about ballistics, twist or throat to them, it's about contractual obligations.
If you want to manufacture anything, you have to estimate demand and order at least a year in advance from your suppliers. A barrel maker won't gear up to deliver several thousand barrels to your door without iron-clad contracts in place. There may be an option for changes, but the added cost for that will be specified in the contract as well.
So a major issue at play is that LAW likely already bought and committed to buying and ordered barrels in the various twists they originally thought the market would want based on what other manufacturers are currently offering.
If they change specs mid-stream what would they do with all the unwanted barrels?
No so Reed has already changed some twist rates as this thread unfolded,he just didn't change them enough
It's not really about ballistics, twist or throat to them, it's about contractual obligations.
If you want to manufacture anything, you have to estimate demand and order at least a year in advance from your suppliers. A barrel maker won't gear up to deliver several thousand barrels to your door without iron-clad contracts in place. There may be an option for changes, but the added cost for that will be specified in the contract as well.
So a major issue at play is that LAW likely already bought and committed to buying and ordered barrels in the various twists they originally thought the market would want based on what other manufacturers are currently offering.
If they change specs mid-stream what would they do with all the unwanted barrels?
Changes in twist on unbuilt barrels would cost zero and should be written as such. I'd have reservations about any company that would sign a contract where they're charged for changes to something that's not even built yet and doesn't impact the barrel maker's COGS. They're not sitting on a years worth of barrels in the shop right now.
As to the 1-9 flinging 105's - the runt's Ruger groups 105 Amax's rather nicely here at 580 feet ASL.
Manufacturing is essentially about making a product at a given price point, and locking in costs through contractual agreements for a specified time period...manufacturers commonly do this with their suppliers based on yearly projections.
As Reed stated in his last post on this thread, in his opinion, their rifles are spec'd the way the market wants them to be because they are selling them, so if a customer wants something different at this point, then the customer will have to pay the difference.
But one might question that if there were no cost difference to manufacture to a different spec, then what are the extra costs that will be passed on to the customer that he is talking about?
Anyway, that's what Reed was saying, and it's their business, so you'll have to call them up and argue with them about it, but if your Amaxes are happy in a 9 twist, then no worries, you can buy one of their production 9 twist 6mm barrels and not have to pay the additional costs for a faster twist barrel...that don't exist.
I'm tired of arguing about all this nonsense. If you or boxer or anyone else on here don't care for LAW products, no one is going to force you to buy them. I've ordered one, and I'll let you guys know my thoughts when I recieve it. As a side note, this thread should probably be moved to the hunting rifles forum, as LAW rifles are not custom guns, they are production rifles.
PreparationH,
LOVED the heart felt Vagina Monologue,as you kicked-off Kchunt Fest 2015! Bitchin' Whine there Toots!!! Laughing!
I'll feign my "surprise" that you skirted ALL things The Rifle and are more than a touch nervous to say a fhuqking thing about anything germane,regarding the particulars that bear fruit(throat/twist/COAL).
Points awarded for "recieve" though! Wow! Laughing!
You "hard charging" Do Nothing Dumb Fhuqks are a RIOT!
PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I will happily take the time to rub your nose even further in your own Stupidity,if only because my Engleesh is beyond reproche and I'm as at eaze in sandbagging...as you are talking out your ass. Laughing!
Hint.
Just sayin'.
Bless your heart.
Knock it outta Da' Park and comment on how you shake a rifle out?!? Spare no details and don't let the couch get your kchunt,nor the cat your tongue.
Personally...the Montucky and RAR runs,appeal more.
MRC has the COAL,but nuttin' else and as per always,it's about connecting all the dots.
Hint.....................
dvd',
There is admittedly much humor,in seeing the Future.....................(grin)
16',
Sir...do NOT discount the endorsement of The Hollywood Hunter and Boddington.
Laughing!........................
'smoker,
I've seen me bolster the Economy more than a smidge and for more than a few reasons,though for only a coupla decades.
Ignorance IS bliss and PreparationH is Blisseder than most.
The "lucky" Bitch!..................(grin)
rosco',
The voids are many and in retrospect,it's disheartening how the obvious has loooonnnggggggggg been overlooked.
Funny part is,were an OEM Manufacturer(especially a "Legendary" one) to twist/throat/COAL correctly,none of these Drooling Dumbfhuqks would know the difference and they could happily plod along in Cluelessness as they have from Day One. Secondly,there's no added expense in the Manufacturing end.
Win/win/win.
The FWB 300S was a Retrostalgic Itch,fueled by having launched pallets of pellets through like platforms,back in The Day.
Hoping to score a Running Boar version next................(grin)
FO',
Them who shoot...get it.
Them who don't...NEVER will.
Though it is HILARIOUS to watch a Train Wreck,despite "expert" "thought" driving the "trend".
Wow..........................
RWE,
Don't be so hard on LAW.
They are honestly doing the BEST that they can,given the grey matter they have to work with...................(grin)
'ger,
Pass a used Montucky that "doesn't shoot"...as a vastly superior donor from any/all angles.
Hint................
Tanner,
A true 1-9" at low tide on The Milford will do exactly that which you cite and at a 2.8" COAL smooch.
Though many find them facts unsettling.....................(grin)
'Cat,
Stupid is never smart,though LAW has their heart set in trying to dispel facts. I've this [bleep] hunch,they ain't gonna rewrite Physics...no matter how many Drooling Dumbfhuqks are able to Fantasize about same(grin)
They'll fold and wonder "why".................
teal,
It is CHEAPEST to do things right,from the get go and nothing is less expensive that Reserve RPM...not that I don't enjoy the humor of the naysayers!
LAW is very obviously procuring bottom rung barrels and are a touch taken aback in fronting same. The Secret Squirrel Schit attached to that Business "Model" only adds more hilarity,to the glaring Dumbfhuqktitude of the AMAZINGLY Stupid Dumbfhuqks calling the "shots" at LAW. Funnier than fhuqk and then some!!!
Hear nice thangs about sub sealevel 1-9" 105's myself...............(grin)
Manufacturing is essentially about making a product at a given price point, and locking in costs through contractual agreements for a specified time period...manufacturers commonly do this with their suppliers based on yearly projections.
As Reed stated in his last post on this thread, in his opinion, their rifles are spec'd the way the market wants them to be because they are selling them, so if a customer wants something different at this point, then the customer will have to pay the difference.
But one might question that if there were no cost difference to manufacture to a different spec, then what are the extra costs that will be passed on to the customer that he is talking about?
Anyway, that's what Reed was saying, and it's their business, so you'll have to call them up and argue with them about it, but if your Amaxes are happy in a 9 twist, then no worries, you can buy one of their production 9 twist 6mm barrels and not have to pay the additional costs for a faster twist barrel...that don't exist.
If I go to Barlein's site - I don't pay extra for a twist I desire. I pay extra for contour or length. IOW - TWIST has no effect on the barrel makers COGS and thus they don't charge extra based upon twist. Same with Brux and it was the same with Krieger.
1. LAW isn't taking delivery of a years worth of barrels at any one time.
2. Their barrel maker has a COGS for each barrel and charges accordingly. If something affects COGS - cost to the customer goes up. Apparently the only thing affecting this is contour and length, NOT twist.
3. I would immediately fire any purchasing manager who entered an agreement where my costs as the rifle mfg are affected by changes to orders on inventory that my supplier hasn't even produced yet and it doesn't affect my producers cost to manufacture. One thing if there's a spike in commodity prices, that I understand. Twist rate changes don't fall into that category. If twist did - you'd pay more for a barrel with a 1-8 instead of 1-9 all else being equal. You don't because it doesn't.
4. The most likely purchase scenario for LAW and their barrel mfg is price A for 1-20 barrels, B for 21-40 and then C for 40+ (numbers are arbitrary) in standard contour, above a certain contour/length - different price. (as they've shown in their own pricing on their own web sites)
Pricing is dependent on number purchased AFTER minimums are met. It has nothing to do with twist. As far as the barrel mfg is concerned - it's simply volume as the twist doesn't introduce any extra cost to them.
If LAW is passing on extra costs to the customer to go out of their arbitrary twist rate - it's not because the new barrel is going to cost materially more from the mfg. It's because LAW is charging a convenience fee for not being able to simply make the rifle without concern for the specific customer. If every rifles the same - you don't have to worry as much about getting the right one to the right guy. Or LAW simply ordered a bunch, took delivery of a bunch (not a years worth) and now they sold a rifle that didn't actually reduce their inventory of barrels. They're carrying those costs longer. Not my problem because as it's been pointed out here - those who don't know - aren't going to complain about extra twist. Those who do know are going to complain about not having enough twist.
Servicing the latter does nothing to harm your ability to service the former. It increases your customer base at zero added cost.
but if your Amaxes are happy in a 9 twist, then no worries, you can buy one of their production 9 twist 6mm barrels and not have to pay the additional costs for a faster twist barrel...that don't exist.
My point about the Amaxes had more to do with this:
Originally Posted by TopCat
Originally Posted by Tanner
Everything but the 22-250 looks good to me on that spec sheet. I'd take a 1-8" over a 1-9", but the 1-9" will still spin most good 105s in a 243 (105 HPBT, 105 A-Max, 105 VLD...)
Tanner
...at higher elevations.
I'm not exactly at a high elevation - sub 600 and the 1-9 will stabilize the 105 amax in the cool/dry air I shoot in. Eventually we're going to be completely lead free. It's a fact, it's coming. To get the same BC in a mono-metal means I need to be quite a bit longer and I'll need more twist to stabilize.
Where I think I'd run into trouble and I don't know because I've not tested is the 115 DTAC. I'm in a relatively low elevation and low air density location. Start getting into a humid areas - there may be issues with a 105 that's not being pushed real hard. Dunno - I can only speak to where I'm shooting but a 1-8 in 6mm would make it a moot point.
Also the ONLY way to really know what your twist really is, you need to check with a cleaning rod. Things don't ALWAYS show as advertised. 1-9 might end up more like 1-9.75 and cause issues but a 1-8 probably isn't going to end up 1-10.
but if your Amaxes are happy in a 9 twist, then no worries, you can buy one of their production 9 twist 6mm barrels and not have to pay the additional costs for a faster twist barrel...that don't exist.
My point about the Amaxes had more to do with this:
Originally Posted by TopCat
Originally Posted by Tanner
Everything but the 22-250 looks good to me on that spec sheet. I'd take a 1-8" over a 1-9", but the 1-9" will still spin most good 105s in a 243 (105 HPBT, 105 A-Max, 105 VLD...)
Tanner
...at higher elevations.
I'm not exactly at a high elevation - sub 600 and the 1-9 will stabilize the 105 amax in the cool/dry air I shoot in. Eventually we're going to be completely lead free. It's a fact, it's coming. To get the same BC in a mono-metal means I need to be quite a bit longer and I'll need more twist to stabilize.
Where I think I'd run into trouble and I don't know because I've not tested is the 115 DTAC. I'm in a relatively low elevation and low air density location. Start getting into a humid areas - there may be issues with a 105 that's not being pushed real hard. Dunno - I can only speak to where I'm shooting but a 1-8 in 6mm would make it a moot point.
Also the ONLY way to really know what your twist really is, you need to check with a cleaning rod. Things don't ALWAYS show as advertised. 1-9 might end up more like 1-9.75 and cause issues but a 1-8 probably isn't going to end up 1-10.
Just FYI, humidity actually decreases air density. The toughest conditions for stabilizing bullets are when you're low, cold, and dry.
My comment was about the 105gr as a group, not referring only to the Amax. The Amax design adapts to slower twists for the BC available, but some 105s need a faster twist, and particularly under more demanding atmospheric conditions. True, elevation is just one factor, but all of that group will benefit from a faster twist..."stabilized" is not the same as "optimized".
But as a reality check, I doubt that more than a handful or two of these rifles in 243 over their entire production run will ever see a bullet that heavy traveling down their barrels, considering that most folks in the great unwashed see the 243 as a small game or a kid's deer rifle.
On your barrel twist cost analysis, I agree with your logical points, but manufacturers don't see things quite the same way, because the scale of their operation has a dramatic effect on their costs.
Buyers need to be careful to buy their parts in quantities large enough to achieve their price point, as buying in smaller quantities can easily double the cost and eliminate their profit.
Manufacturers are after profits, we, as consumers, usually have little concern for such mundane things.
But then, these are hunting rifles after all, and not range toys, but I bet if they fixed all their twists, there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house.
Personally...the LAST thing of interest to me,is a "good deal" on a piece of fhuqking schit.
It costs no more to twist and throat right and the inherent advantages are beyond refute. Them facts only fhuqk up them who shoot little to none,as this Thread eloquently quantifies.
LAW gave no thought to any of it,mainly because they were/are well shy of having the faculties to process same. It has long been hilarious to me,that poor poor Joe Average is soothed with the notion that lotsa Stupid Fhuqkers buy lotsa STUPID schit. Now I'm not gonna condemn the gent who made a mint by selling Pet Rocks,but I don't feel compelled to apologize for not purchasing same. The LAW is a schit sandwich,as a best case scenario and there will of course be STUPID Fhuqkers who'll take a bite. Tough to trump the humor,from any/all angles!
Some folks will never savvy and that's even funnier yet.
I just handled one of their new rifles. The rep brought a Closer by the shop.
Needless to say, I'm impressed. The action was smooth as silk. The metal work was flawless and the bedding was better than I've ever seen on a production rifle (he let me take it out of the stock). The Timney trigger was nice....and ergo's were spot on.
Its a breeze to remove the firing pin for cleaning as well. With the safety in mid-postion, remove the bolt and pull back on a small lever, unscrew from there.
Good to hear. As I said, most (all but two) appear to be twisted just fine. Even if you bought the rifle and had it re-barreled, you'd still be way ahead of the game cost wise compared to what the original Ed Brown would have set you back. So for $2000 which would include the price of a top flight custom barrel of your choosing, you would have one hell of a rifle.
I just handled one of their new rifles. The rep brought a Closer by the shop.
Needless to say, I'm impressed. The action was smooth as silk. The metal work was flawless and the bedding was better than I've ever seen on a production rifle (he let me take it out of the stock). The Timney trigger was nice....and ergo's were spot on.
Its a breeze to remove the firing pin for cleaning as well. With the safety in mid-postion, remove the bolt and pull back on a small lever, unscrew from there.
I just handled one of their new rifles. The rep brought a Closer by the shop.
Needless to say, I'm impressed. The action was smooth as silk. The metal work was flawless and the bedding was better than I've ever seen on a production rifle (he let me take it out of the stock). The Timney trigger was nice....and ergo's were spot on.
Its a breeze to remove the firing pin for cleaning as well. With the safety in mid-postion, remove the bolt and pull back on a small lever, unscrew from there.
I'm looking forward to shooting one...
So I was at the local Sportsman's today and they had one of these, it was one of the "Professional" rifles in 300 Win Mag. They had it marked at $1599, the guy thought the non-mags would be a bit less but he wasn't sure.
Anyway, like SAS said the fit & finish is 1st rate, it was about as nice as I've seen. Certainly nicer than just about any production rifle I've seen that has a plastic stock. Stock felt great, balance was right on the money, it had a thinner shoe Timney, this one was adjusted perfect for a hunting rig. The action was really nice, just unbelievably slick when you cycled it.
About the only thing I could complain about, and I'm grasping is the recoil pad. It was pretty dang hard, kind of like the older Remington solid pads like on KS rifles or the laminated Mtn rifles from a few years ago. Be a real kicker on that Mag. Although I've never been a huge fan of a 3 position safety I could really like this rifle, if they shoot as good as they look that price is pretty decent IMHO.
Happy to say I received my Professional .300 Win Mag today and topped it with a Leupold VX-6 3-18 x 44. Smooth action. Feels good in my hands. Can't wait to get out in the mtns and shoot it this weekend.
I've enjoyed reading most all the posts you guys have made re: these new rifles. So I decided to run a rather dumb question by you just for curiosity: I'm an older guy and hunt with rifles that most of you would think waaaaay too old to hunt with: old M70s with wood stocks and 25-30 yr. old Leupold scopes. But they work well for me and the older you get the more set in your ways you become.
So the question, and I'm not trying to be smart here: honestly wanting to learn. What is a rifle like these customs provide over a say current model 70 with stainless barrel-action and synthetic stock? The 70 has crf, a 3 position striker blocking safety, quite slick action and quite accurate I understand
Is it, more reliable, slicker feeding, more accurate, or more something else? School me here guys. Looking forward to your responses.
I am a winchester fan boy. I believe that I have five model 70s from 270s to 375 HH and I like them a lot. I am willing to swallow my pride and say that the Portugal FN BACO is tops.
However, I was willing to spend retail for a Model 70 JOC tribute. The JOC needed no trigger work and had a level of finish that made it worth it. Every little aspect down to the screws were done with great care. The Model 70 JOC tribute is what BACO could do but doesn't. I hunted with it and decided that I am probably rougher on my rifles than JOC. Its not bad and if I decide to go on a mule deer hunt in Wyoming or South Dakota, it probably would go along. However, many of the goat hunts and late season hunts up here trash nice rifles no matter how much barricade, cloth camo tape and electrical tape you apply.
The Winchester EW is a very nice rifle. It has a BC stock that is a little clubby but it points well and is stable. You buy that rifle and its a dog that can hunt. However, you will have to monkey with the MOA trigger and its always a work to make everything function at the top of the top level.
The LAW Professional pays attention to the same details as the JOC but I am buying it at a great price-right close to the Model 70 EW. The High Tech Specialities Stock is shaped right, the cerrakote job is so good that it is hard to find the muzzle break line with the barrel. The Trigger is a Timney and the action is smooth without any level of galling. The 24 inch fluted barrel with a removable muzzle break are set so its really well balanced. It has an exceptional balance and could compare with semi custom guns by many of the other makers.
Some people might say, hey just go buy a Kimber Montana and be done with it. The Montana costs less. However, you have to cherry pick Kimbers and adjust their bedding plus deal with tool marks. You do not have to deal with that with the LAW.
I might be wrong on all accounts and maybe they are just a flash in the pan that will quickly fade away.
However, I would rather have Mark Bansner who has a long record of making very good rifles over see fit and finish work than some weekend hobbyist.
Last fall, I bought two Bear Anarchy Compound Bows- One is a single cam and one is a double cam. They are incredibly accurate bows. They were discontinued with little fanfare and they are much better bows than the present Bear Arena models.
Sometimes you just know what is a limited opportunity and know that you have to go for it. This is much more something that Butch can back up because he has many rifles that are crafted just for him.
Learned about these in the Outdoor Life gear review a month or so back. They caught my attention then and the past week, while I've been on vacation, I've been geeking out, learning more about these rifles. I've spent some time on the phone with JD, talking about their rifles with him a couple times and emailed back and forth too. As far as customer service goes for a brand new company, they're first-class it would seem; knowledgeable and easily reach via phone or email! After talking with him and finding that they'll possibly be offering this action as a "gunsmithing" product down the road I was on the fence of whether or not to wait and get exactly what I want down the road. I contacted my local distributor to see if I could swing by and take a look at one of these rifles and was told that they leave the shelf as soon as they're put out, so there's nothing to take a look at! That was disappointing, but if they're really that good, I'm having a hard time not being impulsive with another rifle purchase Well today... I gave in and purchased a 308 Winchester, even though I really want a 300WSM with a box mag. I'll either send it in down the road when they open up their "custom shop" and let them ream the chamber out and open the bolt face or if they aren't able to make it as a company (which would be a damn shame!), I'll hire a local smith to do this for me and and fit a detachable box mag system at that point too. Can't wait to get the new rifle! I know 308 will technically kill anything the 300 mags will, but I like the added assurance of higher speeds with heavier bullets, giving me room between things that might eat me and the end of my barrel =) This gun will be getting the VX3 1.75-6x32 heavy duplex I bought last year and never used to keep weight down under 7.5lbs and hopefully shoot the 110gr TTSX I've loaded up to screaming velocities for other 308s in the past. Thanks for the good thread.
I guess I missed the price sheet. I thought these were closer to $1,500.00.
Dave
For $1300, one could get one in, un-FUBAR the .22 caliber f'k up pretty easily and still be into a damn nice rig for well under $2k.
....and still be $1500 less than the Ed Brown offering. When they come out with the 28 Nosler version, I'm in for one.
I have an Ed Brown Damara in .300 WM, a very well crafted rifle.
Seems Legendary got Ed's CRF design and are building their version of his action. I traded for my Damara, but as noted by others, the Ed Brown price point was way more than LAW's price point.
Ed used Jewell triggers, a McM stock like their Edge, made from his proprietary mold. Ed also used Shilen Match barrels and his proprietary coating, sorta like Cerakote. Even with a very light weight rifle, he used steel bottom metal.
Ed shut down his rifle line to concentrate on pistols. I'm glad I was able to get one of his rifles when I did.
I hope LAW can get their act together and we hear nothing but positive reports. I like the Ed Brown CRF design and how it works.
When they get the bugs worked out they'll be a good rifle to grab.
You know this how?
So far they seem like a WINNING company to deal with. Their main PR guy on the 'Fire jumped ship, apparently you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a real turd and they can't get a guy's turd turned around for him.
When they get the bugs worked out they'll be a good rifle to grab.
You know this how?
So far they seem like a WINNING company to deal with. Their main PR guy on the 'Fire jumped ship, apparently you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a real turd and they can't get a guy's turd turned around for him.
All the makings of being a GREAT COMPANY
I understand RD's sentiment.
If LAW is producing a lower cost version of the Ed Brown series, then it may have potential, at least Ed turned out some superb rifles.
The design and idea are solid, execution is the issue.
Kimber had problems, especially early on. And they seemed to have survived those early issues to be esteemed by many here on the Fire.
So, I'm giving these guys a chance. I didn't buy one, may never. Time will tell how they pan out and if they survive.
Glad someone understood and I was going to use the Kimber example as well. I seem to remember a few reports about them dragging their heels replacing a barrel on a rifle that shot crappy. I know they offer no promise of accuracy but if a rifle is shooting 2+ inch groups these days that cost as much as a Kimber, you would think the company would try to keep the customer happy. Have no idea how many infected LAW's there are out there, but like I said, a guy over at OT has one in 6.5 Creed and it's a shooter.
Yeah, Kimber rep wasn't nearly as concerned as I was about 1 1/2 MOA from a .308 Classic. They said that was within their specs.
Not mine. A 23" 5C Broughton cured that problem and this gun is a half MOA keeper. Slightly more mass out front helped balance and handling IMO. The factory tube, other than not shooting, was too light and whippy.
I just handled a LAW professional in 300 Wm at a local store. I was really impressed with the fit, finish and feel. Wasn't really a caliber I was looking for otherwise I would have been really tempted to take it home.
I just tested a .300 Winchester Magnum Professional model extensively. It was very accurate, and functioned perfectly in every other way, including the controlled-round feeding. Weight with a 3-10x42 Nightforce SHV in NF rings (neither particularly light in weight) was 8 pounds 3 ounces; a lighter scope and mounts could drop that weight by up to a pound. The pillar bedding of the stock (the same basic model as Mark Bansner's very good High Tech synthetic) was excellent. MSRP is $1999, which includes an installed but easily removable muzzle brake, which is right in there with other semi-production rifles on the market today.
Had a couple talks with Mark, who readily admitted some start-up problems, but apparently the biggest problem they're having now is keeping up with demand.
I just tested a .300 Winchester Magnum Professional model extensively. It was very accurate, and functioned perfectly in every other way, including the controlled-round feeding. Weight with a 3-10x42 Nightforce SHV in NF rings (neither particularly light in weight) was 8 pounds 3 ounces; a lighter scope and mounts could drop that weight by up to a pound. The pillar bedding of the stock (the same basic model as Mark Bansner's very good High Tech synthetic) was excellent. MSRP is $1999, which includes an installed but easily removable muzzle brake, which is right in there with other semi-production rifles on the market today.
Had a couple talks with Mark, who readily admitted some start-up problems, but apparently the biggest problem they're having now is keeping up with demand.
I just tested a .300 Winchester Magnum Professional model extensively. It was very accurate, and functioned perfectly in every other way, including the controlled-round feeding. Weight with a 3-10x42 Nightforce SHV in NF rings (neither particularly light in weight) was 8 pounds 3 ounces; a lighter scope and mounts could drop that weight by up to a pound. The pillar bedding of the stock (the same basic model as Mark Bansner's very good High Tech synthetic) was excellent. MSRP is $1999, which includes an installed but easily removable muzzle brake, which is right in there with other semi-production rifles on the market today.
Had a couple talks with Mark, who readily admitted some start-up problems, but apparently the biggest problem they're having now is keeping up with demand.
This does not surprise me at all. I've had Bansners shop work on several rifles for years with never an issue. So I was surprised at the early reports on the LAW rifles. I also had exposure to a couple of Ed Brown rifles and liked the action. I felt as if anyone could make the rifle perform, Mark could do it.
Knowing Bansner, I suspected he just had start up troubles associated with going semi production versus full custom. If I needed anther rifle I'd be inclined to try one of these myself.
Just to chime in... I was waiting for my dealer to get in a LAW Professional in 300 win mag and as luck would have it, it just came in. I got the opportunity to go over a Legendary Arms rifle a few times over the last year in other calibers. Absolutely top shelf quality. Build construction and balance is excellent on my 300win. I have a VX3 3-10 on it to keep the over all package light and trim. Weight is as light as I would ever want (7lbs) with a 300 win mag long action. I am not recoil shy at all and can report that the Professional with its muzzle break is the lightest 300 mag recoil I have ever felt. It has to be a combination of the stock and muzzle break because it has tamed full power 180gr loads to feel like a 30-06. These guns are built to use and hunt with. They have a bomb proof feel without feeling heavy or bulky. I am still breaking in the barrel but accuracy is well within the 1 moa guarantee. The M704 action is smooooth. I mean butter smooth. Either feeding the rifle a single round at a time or pulling a round from the magazine, the CRF and extractor works smoother than others I have on my Winchesters, etc.. Extracting is smoother by the way it lightly hands you a spent case by working the bolt slowly or rocketing out a case by working the action fast. The difference with the LAW over the other systems are that you almost feel no resistance when manipulating the bolt fast or slow. Tolerances of the floor plate and controls are as good as it gets in the custom rifle world. Top quality all around and feels much nicer that other custom rifles I have handled costing 2-3x as much $$. I suspect these rifles are currently under valued and demand will make them extremely hard to find. I can tell you my LAW Professional, Kimber Adirondack, and M70 JOC, are the trifecta in my collection and I probably could sell off all my other rifles as they will gather dust on the wall.
I bought two of the LAW Professional rifles, a 28 Nosler and a 35 Whelen. Both are tackdrivers and function like a watch, I couldn't be happier with them. Money well spent..
I bought two of the LAW Professional rifles, a 28 Nosler and a 35 Whelen. Both are tackdrivers and function like a watch, I couldn't be happier with them. Money well spent..
I would like to find the twist rate they did the Whelen barrels in, would anyone know ? I'm thinking probably 1 / 12 ".
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