So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar. I would like to put one together for her to keep at the house. Im considering 5.556 or 300 blackout with 10.5 or 16" barrels. Thoughts on muzzle blast, over penetration, recoil, barrel lengths and caliber pros and cons etc.? Thanks
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
A 10.5" 300 BO with a can is the [bleep] nitz for this application.
SIG Romeo 5 on top, two mags, 200+ grain projectiles.
Done and done.
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
That's solved by discipline and fire control, not by ammo selection.
IMHO (because I've never faced a home invasion), the ability to place precise fire or to defeat body armor or accurately place fire on a target that is not armored (face, etc.) is most important.
Muscle memory is important, too. Mrs. Walter has a Sig 228, because that's her duty weapon and she runs it very well. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel with a 12" barrel and a can because I've been running ARs for 40 years or so.
If she runs ARs well, stay on that platform and adapt.
I've only shot a 22 LR can indoors and it was still freaking loud. You guys ever shot indoors with a centerfire can? How was it?
Personally, I'm gonna grab whatever is closest and say "what?" For the rest of my life, it'd be better than that being the end of my life trying to grab a particular gun. (I have several stashed around the house but sadly still no shower gun)
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
Great advise there!
Yes, great advice.
FWIW, compared to a rifle, is easy on the ears indoors
IF your ammo selection can't penetrate a little drywall, how can you expect it to penetrate enough bad guy to stop the threat? Bird shot is for birds.
I like a shotgun, but an AR will be way easier to handle, less recoil for follow ups, has more rounds on tap, and there is a plethora of options to make it work. A can might be a good option, but it'll make it longer.
#6 shot barely penetrates the chest cavity of pheasants. Heads, necks legs and wings, no problem, but if it is not penetrating chest cavities on a bird, I am skeptical on how it will perform on a human. Of course those birds are being shot at 20-40 yards. With turkey and #4 or 5 shot, you need a head shot for a kill.
At indoor close range, how far does bird shot disperse? is it really that hard to miss? If I am using a shotgun for home defense, it will be loaded with buck shot.
I'm thinking a ball of #6 shot will go through 2 layers of gyp board in a new york second at across the room distance. If I can find some drywall scraps in the neighborhood, I will test it as a 4th of July project. After all isn't FREEDOM what the 4th is all about?
I'm thinking a ball of #6 shot will go through 2 layers of gyp board in a new york second at across the room distance. If I can find some drywall scraps in the neighborhood, I will test it as a 4th of July project. After all isn't FREEDOM what the 4th is all about?
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
A 10.5" 300 BO with a can is the [bleep] nitz for this application.
SIG Romeo 5 on top, two mags, 200+ grain projectiles.
Done and done.
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
That's solved by discipline and fire control, not by ammo selection.
IMHO (because I've never faced a home invasion), the ability to place precise fire or to defeat body armor or accurately place fire on a target that is not armored (face, etc.) is most important.
Muscle memory is important, too. Mrs. Walter has a Sig 228, because that's her duty weapon and she runs it very well. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel with a 12" barrel and a can because I've been running ARs for 40 years or so.
If she runs ARs well, stay on that platform and adapt.
The normal housewife isn't gong to be able to place precise fire on a target in a tense situation like this. She'll be luck to pick up the weapon with a can on it and hold it reasonably still enough to even hit a wall. A sawed off 20 gauge pump or semi auto is much better IMO.
A 10.5" 300 BO with a can is the [bleep] nitz for this application.
SIG Romeo 5 on top, two mags, 200+ grain projectiles.
Done and done.
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
That's solved by discipline and fire control, not by ammo selection.
IMHO (because I've never faced a home invasion), the ability to place precise fire or to defeat body armor or accurately place fire on a target that is not armored (face, etc.) is most important.
Muscle memory is important, too. Mrs. Walter has a Sig 228, because that's her duty weapon and she runs it very well. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel with a 12" barrel and a can because I've been running ARs for 40 years or so.
If she runs ARs well, stay on that platform and adapt.
The normal housewife isn't gong to be able to place precise fire on a target in a tense situation like this. She'll be luck to pick up the weapon with a can on it and hold it reasonably still enough to even hit a wall. A sawed off 20 gauge pump or semi auto is much better IMO.
Round for round, a shotgun with 00 buck is hard to beat, but there's a cost to the power..... recoil.
David Walter - while I agree with most of your assesment, subsonic 300 Blackout is about the last round I'd want to recommend for SD or anything beyond a small niche of specialized hunting or target picking. It's better if you're at least using a bullet specifically designed for subsonic expansion, but still not great. You get really deep penetration through meat and all sorts of other barriers, and very marginal terminal performance. I'm not one to normally get into these cartridge or caliber debates for SD, but subsonic rifle bullets are different enough that I feel it worth addressing.
In the same gun, keep the suppressor on and just use supersonic loads with something like the 125 Ballistic Tip or the 110gr Barnes black tip; performance is hugely improved, over penetration is greatly reduced, and it's still plenty quiet enough.
The cops and BP agents that I know who carry shotguns use #4 buckshot, which is what I have used in my home defense shotguns for many years.
One time, while we were still down on the ranch, BP landed a helicopter on our lawn because they had seen several people go into the cienega down in front of our house and disappear. They managed to get all but one who had apparently vanished.
After the illegals were all in BP vehicles and being hauled away, I was talking to the agents that were getting back into the helicopter. One of them asked if I had a shotgun for the house. I said that I had a 12-gauge Ithaca Deerslayer with a 20" cylinder bore barrel. He grinned and tossed me a couple of boxes of 12-gauge shells. They were Winchester Super X #4 buck. I still have a few left in one box on my ammo shelf.
that being the case, have you had an opportunity to look at the reasonbly priced CX4 Storm 8000 from Berretta in 45ACP? A pistol caliber carbine in 45ACP that is not too expensive, could even mount a light or a laser light combination on it, Only place it falls a bit flat is 8 round magazine. I would opt for the 45Acp indoors myself, its not as deafening as the 9mm or 40sw. There are other pistol caliber carbines as well, but a pistol caliber carbine would be a good idea for your wife.
All of the shotgun discussion is fine except the OP said she’s recoil sensitive and shoots an AR well.
Same with the “average housewife” comment.
The OP said she shoots an AR well. What does “the average house wife” have to do with anything?
For that matter, I’ll bet 90% to 95% of the people I know, gun people and not gun people, can’t operate a firearm under stress.
That’s why big bucks live to fight another day.
And an even smaller fraction when there is, or is expected to be, incoming fire.
As I used to say to my non-boxing friends when I boxed golden gloves, the big bag and the speed bag hitting you back changes everything.
Keep it simple.
My ex was recoil sensitive, but not the least bothered by any of several 20 bore guns. Shotguns are as simple as it gets and small shot will leave a mark.
that being the case, have you had an opportunity to look at the reasonbly priced CX4 Storm 8000 from Berretta in 45ACP? A pistol caliber carbine in 45ACP that is not too expensive, could even mount a light or a laser light combination on it, Only place it falls a bit flat is 8 round magazine. I would opt for the 45Acp indoors myself, its not as deafening as the 9mm or 40sw. There are other pistol caliber carbines as well, but a pistol caliber carbine would be a good idea for your wife.
JR carbines is another about $800 IIRC
My wife too prefers the Beretta storm, hers is in 9mm topped w/ an Aimpoint Micro red dot. Virtually no recoil and very dependable w/ Speer 124gr.+P Ammo. She can put 6 into 6" at 3 yards or 25 yards in very little time on demand. She enjoys shooting it and will practice w/out hesitation.
From what I have seen over the years shotgunners will do OK w/ a shotgun for self defense. Most people will be disappointed if not regular practitioners.
all the little pistol carbines are easier to shoot and without as much muzzle blast, 45ACP makes it a really pleasant gun to shoot and its bite is a lot worse than its bark.
From what I have seen over the years shotgunners will do OK w/ a shotgun for self defense. Most people will be disappointed if not regular practitioners.
Rather think that is the case regardless of one's chosen platform. In home SD is a circumstance wherein the metrics are quite variable and unpredictable. Day time? Night time? Lights on or off? Knock at the door? Breaking glass in a back room? You don't know the where, when and what before the fact, that is driven by the perp. If one is not practiced in the discipline of instinctive shooting things are kind of up in the air a bit, no?
With that said I'm familiar with my home and property, as you all are. I know the distances in the house and what lies behind those walls, just like you. What I don't know is whether I will pop a cap on my feet, laying down or what... I do know that I'm not going to give my position away at night with a laser or red dot sight. I also know that I've a better chance of grazing (read: inflict a truck load of pain) with a scattergun than a pistol or rifle. The first objective of self defense it to incapacitate the perp and a load of shot in the face, chest, legs or gut at 30-50 feet will do that in spades. Center of mass at 30' will leave an orange size hole thru and thru, end of debate. Smack someone out 25-35 yards with a load of #5 shot and you just put a 20-30" thumbprint on them, or about head to belly button. They won't give you any grief after that welcome.
And if it's night time, lights out, sights are useless unless you turn on a light. Brilliant strategy that.
Long time back I observed something I think relevant to this discussion and perfectly on point about instinctive shooting. My door gunners carried M-60 machine guns that were hand held, not pintle mounted. Standing orders for them, if we received fire they returned it. If they saw a target they shot it, if not they simply hosed down the neighborhood. The interesting part was how effective they were with first round hits on one target, then switching to another target, etc. until we were in the clear. None of them were hosing the neighborhood, that wasn't their approach. Seldom fired more than 5-6 shots per target before moving on to the next and they very seldom missed. Ranges varied from 30 to perhaps 75 yards most times and the targets varied from 1 to company/battalion size units. It didn't work like Hollywood thinks, and will not in your home.
So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar.
Not sure why people are suggesting pistols and other platforms. As stated above, if you're not a regular practitioner of the shotgun, it's hard to operate under stress.
And, it's hard to go plinking with.
An AR with 55 grain VMAX bullets would hurt an intruder just fine, and not break any banks.
So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar.
Not sure why people are suggesting pistols and other platforms. As stated above, if you're not a regular practitioner of the shotgun, it's hard to operate under stress.
And, it's hard to go plinking with.
An AR with 55 grain VMAX bullets would hurt an intruder just fine, and not break any banks.
Or the Hornady 55 grain SP.
My wife's not the best pistol shooter either, so I built her a 10.5 inch carbine gas ar in 5.56 with a brace, and cerokoted it her favorite burnt bronze. The third point of contact makes a huge difference for her. With a full mag of Varmint bullets, it covers a lot of scenarios without over penetration.
The shotgun has been portrayed as the ultimate self defense solution for my entire lifetime. Much of that lifetime has been spent studying and professionally practicing stopping bad guys and repairing folks that need fixing. There is a good reason that the shotgun has been relegated to a lesser status by the military and LE.
Since 9/11 the art of FISH [Fighting In Someones' House] has been elevated massively and the lessons learned are readily available. Wives usually require assistance in learning, everyone needs training and frequent practice. Guns are only as good as the person using them.
You want a light fast bullet that will come apart on drywall, like a 40gr V-Max. At least a carbine length barrel will keep the speed up to make sure the bullet comes apart. You also want a suppressor to avoid the pain and disorientation of muzzle blast in a confined space. An AR gets a hair long with a suppressor on. So, look at the Kel-Tec RDB.
Some might suggest an AR pistol. I'd rather use an AR pistol as a club than fire it indoors unsuppressed without at least two kinds of ear protection. Not even exaggerating.
The bullpup + suppressor is a lot of expense and bother for a purpose you will not likely ever actually have. An AR-style shotgun is a more practical purchase. A more traditional home defense shotgun is more practical yet. You just need to get the lowest recoil trainer loads for practice.
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
I worked at Walmart for several years. Our store sold guns. I sold several Mossberg youth 20 gauge shotguns to husbands who wanted a home defense gun for the little lady of the house.
Women with recoil issues will do well with a pistol caliber carbine, and please do not over look a Ruger 10/22 loaded with CCI Velocitors in a 25 round magazine.
A 10.5" 300 BO with a can is the [bleep] nitz for this application.
SIG Romeo 5 on top, two mags, 200+ grain projectiles.
Done and done.
Pretty much what we have done. POF Renegade Plus 300 Blackout AR Pistol -w- 10.5" barrel and loaded with 194gr Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion Subsonics. Wife loves shooting it and handles it suprisingly well. Waiting on an Omega 9k can.
After firing and being around others firing an AR inside an enclosed area a few times I decided that was not a wise thing to do. Not only is the report quite loud and potentially disorienting causing hearing loss for at least the short term but there is a fairly substantial shock wave that is disturbing in its own right. I was wearing ear plugs the first time I was in this situation, ear plugs and ear muffs the following ones and still the experience was quite unpleasant. A suppressor helps with both of these factors but it can make a gun a bit unwieldy and add a bit of expense. The department added a few H&K MP-5s to the mix as a replacement.
These experience prompted me to chose a different platform for the house carbine. Initiall it was an M1 carbine loaded with soft points. It has mild report and concussion even indoors and it was light and pretty handy for my wife to use. The negative was the safety position as my wife often forgot which way to take it off and sometimes hit the mag release instead.
I replaced the M1 with a 9mm Beretta CX-4 a few years ago. I load it with 147 gr Federal HST which has worked well on a couple of 4 legged pests so far. It is even shorter and lighter than the M1 and it uses the same mags as the Beretta M92 I had as a nightstand gun. The safety is of the same style and position as the wife's shotguns so no fumbling for that device.
With any weapon choice, regular practice is needed to gain/maintain even a modicum of proficiency. The shotgun is no magic wand and needs as much practice as any other choice. Picking something that is quickly and easily remembered is preferred.
So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar. I would like to put one together for her to keep at the house. Im considering 5.556 or 300 blackout with 10.5 or 16" barrels. Thoughts on muzzle blast, over penetration, recoil, barrel lengths and caliber pros and cons etc.? Thanks
Looks to me, someone just want's to have an AR.
Buying guns for the Grandkids work. Why not the wife? Ha!
Just to ad, at bedroom distances the size of a shotgun pattern will be not much more than its bore diameter so that isn't helping anything. Same effect as the AR.
That said we generally have 3 in the bedroom, shotgun, AR and handgun. So we can grab whats needed.
Thankfully we don't live in a city and have no kids so rounds getting to the next room or out of the house are not an issue basically.
Others have a lot to worry about.
And back to shotguns, it would take body armor to defeat even a dove load across our bedroom.... but you still have to be able to precisely place a shot. Or shots. Regardless of choice.
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
birdshot is just wrong. You want to kill the fellow, not just pepper him. I load 00 Buck. You don't see any cops using bird shot. Or the military.
Sam, for the sake of clarity let me say that I'm talking about in-house SD. Were I on the front porch plinking at someone at distance I'd not suggest birdshot. Inside a residential structure of average size, say 1,000 to 2500 sq ft you aren't going to "pepper" someone with birdshot. They will be dead before they hit the floor, assuming center of mass/face shot placement. Shoot 'em in the lower abdomen/crotch/thighs and they will be rollin' around on the floor cryin' like the average democrat. I understand that many here have limited experience with shotguns, but I'm not in that camp. Average shotgun/choke will throw a pattern of about grapefruit to basketball size at 10-15 yards. #4-6 size shot will not bounce off the average tee shirt at that distance, not by a long shot, no pun intended.
Buckshot is fine, but do be aware that it will penetrate walls, both interior and dependent upon circumstances, exterior walls. You can minimize that potential with smaller shot, say #3 or #4 buck. It has the advantage of being useful on the front porch as well.
See the pig pic I posted previously. That particular gun accounted for 77 hogs over the course of about 2.5 years up in GA. The average porker won't stop #3 buck on a broadside shot and I was surprised to find out about that. It killed 3 pair of hogs with one shot for each pair and my Ex did one of those tricks on the front porch. By that I mean the hogs were on the front porch. Crazy girl threw the door open and commenced firing, putting 5 hogs down w/4 shots. The largest was about 200#.
I know a clown up in Georgia that killed an 8 pt buck deer with a load of #8 shot at about 20' distance. He said it collapsed and never twitched after the shot. It isn't something I would have considered doing, but.... Birdshot at close range is deadly stuff, don't ever doubt that.
Um, our bedroom must be tiny then, but its spacious to us. Maybe 16 feet 16 feet. Go shoot a dove load at 16 feet once... I'll pretty well guarantee a human won't be peppered...
Cops and military have guns set up for longer shots.
Actually if folks are saying buckshot is best for penetration, at 16 feet you could really just use a slug too.
My buckshot for deer and pigs, is not. birdshot, but the ranges are further. By far. Then I swap to 3 inch or better, #4 plated buck if possible, sometimes a hare bigger, typically no bigger than 1.
#6 shot barely penetrates the chest cavity of pheasants.
Birdshot at 10-15' hits very hard.
Saw a man get shot in the chest with a .410 at about 10'. Don't know for certain what the load was, but highly doubt it was buckshot. He went down ASAP and drew his last breath in short order. Entrance hole about the size of a quarter.
If buckshot isn't viable, why not look at some of the BB shot in waterfowl or coyote loads. It kind of splits the difference, but if you look up the penetration tests, it does a lot better than birdshot.
Just another consideration. Look at a photo realistic target w/ the badguy behind a hostage w/ only his head showing. Shoot this target w/ your shotgun at 10 yards then extrapolate the results to potential distances available in your home. We used to use an MGM IPSC hostage steel target as a reality check in advanced classes and it proves very humbling.
The reality is that unless your wife really likes to shoot and is willing to practice a lot, dryfire w/ regularity and practice scenarios at home she would be best served w/ a pistol caliber carbine equipped w/ a red dot sight that can be left on for extended periods of time. That being said any gun is better than none, and training and practice will be the factors that most influence the outcome.
If buckshot isn't viable, why not look at some of the BB shot in waterfowl or coyote loads. It kind of splits the difference, but if you look up the penetration tests, it does a lot better than birdshot.
Shotty. Geez, even when twig is working someone else has to use his vernacular... Shotgun. ONE extra letter. Rant off. LOL. Have a great 4th!
When I was a kid I used to lay in bed with a spring powered Daisy BB pistol and use my big toenail as a target. BBs won't penetrate my armor plated big toenails.
Mom yelled at me when the Kirby sucked them up later on. I never could find them all.
I bought a box of these out of curiosity. They cause quite a commotion at about 10 yards, blasting cardboard boxes. About a 10" pattern at 10 yards, cylinder bore.
Probably not what you want to hear, but for in house SD there isn't a better platform than a shotgun loaded with mid size shot, say #4-#6. I like a pump, YMMV. If you can't whack a bad boy with 5 shots, well, I don't know what to say. Ladies and 20 bores go together like divorce and lawyers.
The ranges are very short in a house, walls are thin and the last thing you want to do is kill someone in an adjacent room accidentally.
I disagree with all of this.
At inside the home ranges a handgun is still the better option. There are just too many times where you need to use one hand for other things and it is too easy for an intruder to wrestle a long gun away from you. You don't need a lot of accuracy at ranges measured in single digit feet.
But if you're gonna use a long gun a 16" AR rifle in 223/5.56 is the way to go. At inside the home ranges a shotgun has no pattern. It has to be aimed just like a rifle. Shotguns loaded with anything that will stop a man will have 300 WM recoil levels. Even a 20 ga. In guns of equal weight a 20 recoils less, but a typical 20 is at least 1 pound lighter and recoils just as much or more. A semi in 223/5.56 has 1/6 the recoil, and 6X the ammo capacity of most shotguns. A softpoint 223 round is LESS likely to over penetrate and hit someone in another room than shotgun or handgun rounds. That includes birdshot. It is the safest option in this regard.
Another option is a pistol caliber carbine. I still like an AR better, but can see the appeal of a carbine in 9mm, 40, or 45.
Where a shotgun shines is OUTSIDE at ranges between 15-50 yards where the pattern of BUCKSHOT can be utilized to make it easier to hit moving targets. At closer, or longer ranges a rifle is a much better option. BIrdshot is for practice or small birds.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth, but I chose a 12ga. Pump, iron sights, and alternating deer slug and military buckshot for that purpose. (00 buck, but is labeled for military use). I grew up with a shotgun in hand, and have no doubt what it will do, and feel like when in use. It's dead simple to operate, even in low light, no mag release to hit by mistake, there are about a dozen extra rounds on the butt stock in elastic holders, in order, buck, ball, buck, ball....
Your choice has to fit your specific needs, and only you can decide what suits your needs best, but shotguns are simple but effective, less expensive, versatile, and you will not be too upset if it gets scratched up, or dinged up. Short shells are available if you want more capacity, as well as many shotguns have magazine tube extensions available.
Shotguns suck for everything but hitting birds. There’s a reason they’re near onsoliete in LE and the military. Everything a shotgun can do an AR can do better. Save your stories about how that’s what you love and your cousin’s neighbor who’s a cop used one or in 1970 you used one in the military.
They’re heavier, slower to load, hold less ammo (that’s a great combination), slower to shoot, have more recoil, malfunctions are harder to clear, and at room distances you still have to aim them. So why not aim something that is lighter, easier to load, holds more ammo, with less recoil, that’s faster to shoot?
And when you start putting a lot of rounds through them they’re just as prone to parts breakage and malfunctions as any other gun mentioned. Remington 870s especially.
If shotguns had never been invented and somebody started producing them today there’s not a single legitimate LE agency or military unit that would field them because without nostalgia their faults would be glaringly obvious.
Rant over.
Having messed with quite a few PCCs I wouldn’t try one for HD (but I’ve neber messed with the Beretta). They’re very difficult to get reliable and the blowback models have as much recoil as a properly built AR. It’s just like shooting an AR, but with a pistol bullet.
Sam, for the sake of clarity let me say that I'm talking about in-house SD. Were I on the front porch plinking at someone at distance I'd not suggest birdshot. Inside a residential structure of average size, say 1,000 to 2500 sq ft you aren't going to "pepper" someone with birdshot. They will be dead before they hit the floor, assuming center of mass/face shot placement. Shoot 'em in the lower abdomen/crotch/thighs and they will be rollin' around on the floor cryin' like the average democrat.
Now that's funny.
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
I understand that many here have limited experience with shotguns, but I'm not in that camp. Average shotgun/choke will throw a pattern of about grapefruit to basketball size at 10-15 yards. #4-6 size shot will not bounce off the average tee shirt at that distance, not by a long shot, no pun intended. Buckshot is fine, but do be aware that it will penetrate walls, both interior and dependent upon circumstances, exterior walls. You can minimize that potential with smaller shot, say #3 or #4 buck. It has the advantage of being useful on the front porch as well.
See the pig pic I posted previously. That particular gun accounted for 77 hogs over the course of about 2.5 years up in GA. The average porker won't stop #3 buck on a broadside shot and I was surprised to find out about that. It killed 3 pair of hogs with one shot for each pair and my Ex did one of those tricks on the front porch. By that I mean the hogs were on the front porch. Crazy girl threw the door open and commenced firing, putting 5 hogs down w/4 shots. The largest was about 200#.
I know a clown up in Georgia that killed an 8 pt buck deer with a load of #8 shot at about 20' distance. He said it collapsed and never twitched after the shot. It isn't something I would have considered doing, but.... Birdshot at close range is deadly stuff, don't ever doubt that.
There have been a lot of quail hunters who've killed a deer that got up at short range with 7 1/2's. I've seen it.
If I was going to use a rifle, it’s gonna be in a rifle caliber. A 223 is most likely going to have the least chance of over penetration. Whether it’s pistols or carbines, training trumps equipment all day.
to each his own, but for me I do not ever want to fire a 5.56 round in a room, I don't want a shotgun because they recoil a lot and they have to be aimed just like a rifle at room ranges. OTOH as I am familiar with the ar platform I would want something that operates similar but fires a round that would not have me misunderstanding the police questions when they were being asked of me nor costing me the permanent use of my ears. .Finally in my humble opinion a 30 caliber 220 grain slug at 1000fps is about the same as a 45 caliber 230 grain slug at 1000 fps with the exception that they make nice hollow points for the 45 caliber slug that expand nicely at this velocity, thus the 45 would probably make nice .60 caliber holes thru what ever you shot with it, thus what ever you had put the .60 caliber holes thru would probably cease and desist any attempts at further harm on very short notice.
Dry fire practice the home invasion thing. Daytime , nightime. Places of cover to use ( schitt that stops bullets) Tell family members their actions ( stay laying on the floor behind cover is good ) If family members are in the fight they need to practice also.
High capacity m4 or AR shorty platform 1st , high capacity pistol after. Or whatever your choose for a wpn. Lots of rounds down range fast with some dispersion work. Use guns your willing to have held as evidence for a long period of time.
Make sure mofo is dead. ( cant testify in court)
coup de grace a mofo if needed in manner that ain't ballisticly incriminating. I.E. from your last firing point. Dont close the distance and gak the fugger from a foot away. Leaving schit loads of ballistic, powder residue and blood evidence for Mr CSI guy to put together and be used against you in court.
Dont take my advice I have zero experience in CQB or MOUT.
whatever you do Dont practice dry fire day and night either And definately dont tell or have family members practice their actions if they are in or out of the fight.
And as far as blowing out your ears or others. That point is lame.... I would rather be alive and a little deaf. Also plenty of inexpensive CQB muzzle devices on the market.
to each his own, but for me I do not ever want to fire a 5.56 round in a room, I don't want a shotgun because they recoil a lot and they have to be aimed just like a rifle at room ranges. OTOH as I am familiar with the ar platform I would want something that operates similar but fires a round that would not have me misunderstanding the police questions when they were being asked of me nor costing me the permanent use of my ears. .Finally in my humble opinion a 30 caliber 220 grain slug at 1000fps is about the same as a 45 caliber 230 grain slug at 1000 fps with the exception that they make nice hollow points for the 45 caliber slug that expand nicely at this velocity, thus the 45 would probably make nice .60 caliber holes thru what ever you shot with it, thus what ever you had put the .60 caliber holes thru would probably cease and desist any attempts at further harm on very short notice.
If I'm firing off any round inside my house, it's already a very bad day.....
Are you talking to me??? Outta the blue cause you feel the need to say something????? Cause I really Dgaf about you. To be honest with you. One good hard delibrate punch in your Laynrx would put you down, then about 3 good hard body weight elbow blows in one of your temples. Would take care of your little rabid female dog attitude permanent like.
Everything fired inside doors is loud. Everything fired indoors is Lethal. Proficiency cain't be purchased,to the chagrin of Window Lickers everywhere.
dB is exponential think of every 3 intervals as a doubling of the level.
having shot outdoors 9mm, 45 ACP, 357 magnum, 16.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro the worst was 357 magnum, followed by 9mm, followed by the 16.5 inch 5.56, followed by 45ACP in my hearings opinion. I have not and will not shoot a 10.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro, but it is concussive even with ear pro. I am just guessing which I admit as I have not fired a 45 ACP indoors but based on outdoors results the 5 inch barreled 45ACP was not as bad as the others.
From an effective/ear damage standpoint, I always figured A 45 carbine would be tops. Some loads actually lose velocity in a longer barrel. That would mean much reduced blast.
dB is exponential think of every 3 intervals as a doubling of the level.
having shot outdoors 9mm, 45 ACP, 357 magnum, 16.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro the worst was 357 magnum, followed by 9mm, followed by the 16.5 inch 5.56, followed by 45ACP in my hearings opinion. I have not and will not shoot a 10.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro, but it is concussive even with ear pro. I am just guessing which I admit as I have not fired a 45 ACP indoors but based on outdoors results the 5 inch barreled 45ACP was not as bad as the others.
It doubles every 6, not every 3....
Notice how .357 and .41 Mag are the same as the 5.56.
Don't hear anyone crying about how loud they are indoors.
we both may be wrong, I looked it up again and it may double every 10 intervals.
I try to think about things in advance. For the money the Berretta is not a bad deal or the CMMG for more money and it uses glock magazines, or if you got a spare $2300 lying about the LWRC piston pistol.
Bird season overlaps deer season here in NC about 6 weeks in late November and December. One of the farms I hunt in northern Caswell is under the agreement that we supply the land owner with as many does as we can afford to tag that he then gives to his migrant workers. The farm is about 1500 acres of hills and ditches that was clear cut years ago. Deer hold tight in this jungle and you just about have to step on them to get them up. These days I only carry an A5 in 16 or 20 gauge ( usually the 20 ) , and it is no problem to drop deer out to 10 or 12 yards with high brass number 8 or 7.5. At that range it works about like a slug.
I imagine it would also work in side the confines of most homes as well.
Crow, I'm thinkin' the reason so many reject the shotgun approach is either they never used one, or they are terrified what their wife will do to them if they spatter blood and guts all over the furniture.
Weird, I don’t recall rejecting shotguns! I have a v3 tac13 and at room ranges it’s about a 4-5 inch pattern with 00. If birdshot was a consideration it would be hevi-shot #2
#6 shot barely penetrates the chest cavity of pheasants. Heads, necks legs and wings, no problem, but if it is not penetrating chest cavities on a bird, I am skeptical on how it will perform on a human. Of course those birds are being shot at 20-40 yards. With turkey and #4 or 5 shot, you need a head shot for a kill.
At indoor close range, how far does bird shot disperse? is it really that hard to miss? If I am using a shotgun for home defense, it will be loaded with buck shot.
I knew a family who had a son who had to shoot a intruder who was stalking his wife. The guy kicked in the door and was met with a 2 3/4" shell of #6 birdshot to the head. It blew his head to pieces. His Dad said that was the biggest mess he'd ever seen. Pieces and blood were everywhere.
Crow, I'm thinkin' the reason so many reject the shotgun approach is either they never used one, or they are terrified what their wife will do to them if they spatter blood and guts all over the furniture.
Just guessin'............
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
That isn’t a knock on old people, it’s just a statement that for some reason those above around 40-50 years old tend to have some weird and misguided ideas of what guns do.
00 buck up close does do significant tissue damage. It’s also horribly slow to reload, takes more skill to reload, has big enough recoil that shooting multiple shots well under time constraints takes considerable skill, if it’s a pump it’s more complicated to put into action, AND still must be aimed inside a house.
The moment you raise a gun to another human- you are shooting a human. EVERY single organization that shoots humans inside of rooms regularly and does it well issues a 5.56mm AR based platform.
A properly setup AR15 is the easiest to shoot well weapon made- has little recoil, is simple to operate, easy to aim and hit with when using a red dot, with good ammo causes non survivable wounds that can incapacitate immediately and will reduce risks of over penetration, reloading is a near non issue in a home invasion, and if you do need to reload is extremely easy to do so, can easily and ergonomically mount a white light, and is relatively inexpensive.
Pistol rounds suck. Putting them in a rifle doesn’t change that, yet now you have a gun as big as a short AR15 without the lethality.
300 BO subs suck in humans. Better than a pistol, but not by much. Super sonic 300 BO can be very good, but really no better than good 5.56mm
All rounds cause permanent hearing damage inside a house when not suppressed. I would not choose a less capable platform due to a misguided belief that one will save your ears. Dudes did CQB with M4 including shorties without ear pro for years. Stupid- yes, but they did it and could communicate.
Someone experienced with shotguns and bird shooting who happens to have a gun that fits properly knows something a lot of folks don't, namely that sights are frivolous and instinct rules the day. Or night. It works with rifles too, but few are aware of that.
Shot a buck deer about 20 years back, deep in the river bottom with heavy cover. He jumped into the air, literally, about 15 yards in front of me. He was at the peak of the leap, head about 8' off the ground when my Model 94 barked. The bullet hit about 3" behind his skull. Never saw the sights, not for the first instant. And yes, I had modified the stock for a more comfortable fit and expeditious mount.
Crow, I'm thinkin' the reason so many reject the shotgun approach is either they never used one, or they are terrified what their wife will do to them if they spatter blood and guts all over the furniture.
Just guessin'............
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
That isn’t a knock on old people, it’s just a statement that for some reason those above around 40-50 years old tend to have some weird and misguided ideas of what guns do.
00 buck up close does do significant tissue damage. It’s also horribly slow to reload, takes more skill to reload, has big enough recoil that shooting multiple shots well under time constraints takes considerable skill, if it’s a pump it’s more complicated to put into action, AND still must be aimed inside a house.
The moment you raise a gun to another human- you are shooting a human. EVERY single organization that shoots humans inside of rooms regularly and does it well issues a 5.56mm AR based platform.
A properly setup AR15 is the easiest to shoot well weapon made- has little recoil, is simple to operate, easy to aim and hit with when using a red dot, with good ammo causes non survivable wounds that can incapacitate immediately and will reduce risks of over penetration, reloading is a near non issue in a home invasion, and if you do need to reload is extremely easy to do so, can easily and ergonomically mount a white light, and is relatively inexpensive.
Pistol rounds suck. Putting them in a rifle doesn’t change that, yet now you have a gun as big as a short AR15 without the lethality.
300 BO subs suck in humans. Better than a pistol, but not by much. Super sonic 300 BO can be very good, but really no better than good 5.56mm
All rounds cause permanent hearing damage inside a house when not suppressed. I would not choose a less capable platform due to a misguided belief that one will save your ears. Dudes did CQB with M4 including shorties without ear pro for years. Stupid- yes, but they did it and could communicate.
Did you read the post immediately prior to this one?
If shotguns were the best weapon for home invasions, then the Soldiers and Marines would have been using them in Ramadi and other urban locations.
The whole argument seems to revolve around the shotgun and five rounds being "enough' to stop an invader. Yes, maybe one. But, what about many?
I've been to Thunder Ranch a few times, and even though Clint advocates for shotguns as home defense weapons, I'm certain there are lots of guns stashed around the Smith residence. I am even more certain there are loaded mags just about everywhere possible.
Point being, you can bring a weapon suitable for a single or two person engagement and survive. When the other two guys show up and you're reloading when it's time to be shooting, you'll be dead. When the fight moves outside into the driveway or the yard and the other guys have rifles, you're dead. When they grab your wife or child and you have to advance while firing, you're out of ammo, and you're dead.
I find it ponderous that one would plan for the best case outcome (one shotgun blast kills the bad guy) when planning for a worst case scenario (surprise brake in to your residence while your family is home and possibly in the way or line of fire).
We're over gunned and wearing body armor and have plenty of ammo around the house.
If they kill me, its not because I didn't have enough ammo, or all the guns were locked in the safe when I needed them with me.
As Jeff Cooper used to say, and Clint Smith says all the time, "Every fight is a rifle fight. Some people bring fists, some bring sticks, or knives, of handguns or shotguns. But if you brought a rife, you can prosecute the engagement from a distance and from cover."
I'll take all the "tactical advantage" I can get when momma and the kids are in harms way.
Just remember... you are responsible for all rounds you fire. You don't want to be shooting something that will penetrate multiple walls in your home and then exit and continue on elsewhere.
I'd set her up a 16" AR and feed it 75gr Hornadys with an Aimpoint or Eo-Tech, this place is very rural, I use AR's and REPR's in 223 and 308, they're hand loaded with 55gr Lehigh AP-TS and 62 gr TSX, the 308 is stoked with handloaded 130gr TSX and 176gr Lehigh AP-WU, none of us want trouble, but should it show, I don't care what it's wearing, riding in, or how deep they're stacked, I'm gonna reach em.
dB is exponential think of every 3 intervals as a doubling of the level.
having shot outdoors 9mm, 45 ACP, 357 magnum, 16.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro the worst was 357 magnum, followed by 9mm, followed by the 16.5 inch 5.56, followed by 45ACP in my hearings opinion. I have not and will not shoot a 10.5 inch 5.56 without ear pro, but it is concussive even with ear pro. I am just guessing which I admit as I have not fired a 45 ACP indoors but based on outdoors results the 5 inch barreled 45ACP was not as bad as the others.
It doubles every 6, not every 3....
Notice how .357 and .41 Mag are the same as the 5.56.
Don't hear anyone crying about how loud they are indoors.
Here's an alternative source rating the noise of various firearms.
It's interesting to note how the 12 gauge, 45 ACP, .38 special, and 9mm are all rated as being LOUDER than the .223:
Found on the 'net so it must be true, hey? If you poke around a little you'll find a dozen different theories about what gun is louder than another. While you're at it, define ".223 Rifle" for me. AR? Rem 700 with a 24" barrel? It is ambiguous to say the least.
Found on the 'net so it must be true, hey? If you poke around a little you'll find a dozen different theories about what gun is louder than another. While you're at it, define ".223 Rifle" for me. AR? Rem 700 with a 24" barrel? It is ambiguous to say the least.
I didn't say it must be true. I said it was an alternative source. What's wrong with comparing multiple sources? Do you have only one reloading manual?
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
I've been on 2 scenes where people were shot with shotguns; both died where they fell.
One was shot just above the left knee with #4 shot from across a room at about 12-15', femoral artery was taken out, died where he fell in a pool of blood, don't know how long it took for him to die but he apparently never moved.
Other one was shot in the head & about half his face & the side of his head was gone, 00 BS from also with the same room, death was more or less instantaneous.
Sample of 2, both same result.
I prefer a 14.5" AR with a red dot, but I wouldn't feel too bad off if a shotgun was all I had, but it surely isn't as easy to handle in some circumstances.
Well, a little ramble for what it's worth, this based on personal experience. There has been a fair bit of assertion about the sound levels related to various arms, particularly within closed environments, such as a house. Well, yeah, they all make noise and touching off a gun, in house or other circumstances involving close confinement, will make an impression not soon forgotten. It doesn't matter much what gun, or cartridge.
What those of you who have not discharged a weapon on purpose in such circumstances may not be factoring is the body's response to high stress levels in what is sometimes characterized as a significant emotional event. Whether the auditory system takes a vacation of sorts, or the event simply assigns priority to sensory perception, I have no idea, but I assure you that loud noise is not a priority during such events.
An extreme example or two? In the OH6 the minigun muzzle is about 2-3' from your knee if sitting in the left seat, dependent upon the gun's elevation. It is a remarkably obnoxious volume when fired during training sessions, yet one will have only a faint memory of the event when engaged in a gunfight. Same deal for the M2 which replaced M60's for the door gunners late in the Vietnam war, and the 20mm Gatling on the AH1G gunships which would on occasion generate sufficient mechanical stress on the airframe that it would unlock the door window latch on the aft cockpit. Noise? What noise?
If any of you should ever have the misfortune to engage in a gunfight, indoors or out, the sound of weapon discharge will be the very last thing you will worry about, or even recall. It is a very high stress instant in time with a number of much higher priorities. Is far more likely you will recall the sonic crack of bullets inbound to your location before you complain about muzzle blast.
So pick your weapon, know how to use it and kick ass.
what did you say? I can't hear you. While you are all welcome to maintain that a 10.5 inch AR15 fired a few times indoors will be forgotten in the event of a life threatening event, cochlear hair cells don't regenerate, damage to them is permanent. We started all of this with a woman who could not shoot a pistol caliber pistol, and we have covered everything from pistol caliber pistols to 20mm gatling guns, this place might be called "The Outer Limits" if it were a TV show. I struggle to understand how a shotgun would be better for such a person that has trouble with a pistol but maybe I am wrong. I also due to all the TV shows I watched as a child fall into the fudd category of thinking 9 of the number 00 buck into a torso would be a game changer for many that received it. This again is just due to me watching too many westerns as a child. I also think that shotguns are hard to load, but if one has a shotgun loaded and knows how to fire said weapon effectively a person armed with a pistol, knife, screwdriver, broken beer bottle etc would be wise to vacate the premises as fast as possible. Not that I am advocating for shotguns, despite their less powerful demeanor something like the berretta storm in 45ACP might be something a person of small stature could handle. I am guessing that 1-2 hits with that might be somewhat effective but again I am sure I am wrong.
Crow, I'm thinkin' the reason so many reject the shotgun approach is either they never used one, or they are terrified what their wife will do to them if they spatter blood and guts all over the furniture.
Just guessin'............
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
That isn’t a knock on old people, it’s just a statement that for some reason those above around 40-50 years old tend to have some weird and misguided ideas of what guns do.
00 buck up close does do significant tissue damage. It’s also horribly slow to reload, takes more skill to reload, has big enough recoil that shooting multiple shots well under time constraints takes considerable skill, if it’s a pump it’s more complicated to put into action, AND still must be aimed inside a house.
The moment you raise a gun to another human- you are shooting a human. EVERY single organization that shoots humans inside of rooms regularly and does it well issues a 5.56mm AR based platform.
A properly setup AR15 is the easiest to shoot well weapon made- has little recoil, is simple to operate, easy to aim and hit with when using a red dot, with good ammo causes non survivable wounds that can incapacitate immediately and will reduce risks of over penetration, reloading is a near non issue in a home invasion, and if you do need to reload is extremely easy to do so, can easily and ergonomically mount a white light, and is relatively inexpensive.
Pistol rounds suck. Putting them in a rifle doesn’t change that, yet now you have a gun as big as a short AR15 without the lethality.
300 BO subs suck in humans. Better than a pistol, but not by much. Super sonic 300 BO can be very good, but really no better than good 5.56mm
All rounds cause permanent hearing damage inside a house when not suppressed. I would not choose a less capable platform due to a misguided belief that one will save your ears. Dudes did CQB with M4 including shorties without ear pro for years. Stupid- yes, but they did it and could communicate.
Did you read the post immediately prior to this one?
BD, lots mean gingers out there that are particular about such things....
I have should have added more but was reluctant to because some here will call BS. Dan is an old bird hunter and will know what I speak of. After hunting a few weeks and being tuned up on wild birds that know how to utilize every bit of foliage to their advantage, hitting a deer from the shoulders up is child's play. And hitting them with a shot string still that has barely begun to dissipate at the ranges we are talking is lethal. Like Dan described earlier several times we have flipped deer in midair. A few times we have found the plastic cup inside the deer when we dressed them. Physics rule.
Crow, I'm thinkin' the reason so many reject the shotgun approach is either they never used one, or they are terrified what their wife will do to them if they spatter blood and guts all over the furniture.
Just guessin'............
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
That isn’t a knock on old people, it’s just a statement that for some reason those above around 40-50 years old tend to have some weird and misguided ideas of what guns do.
00 buck up close does do significant tissue damage. It’s also horribly slow to reload, takes more skill to reload, has big enough recoil that shooting multiple shots well under time constraints takes considerable skill, if it’s a pump it’s more complicated to put into action, AND still must be aimed inside a house.
The moment you raise a gun to another human- you are shooting a human. EVERY single organization that shoots humans inside of rooms regularly and does it well issues a 5.56mm AR based platform.
A properly setup AR15 is the easiest to shoot well weapon made- has little recoil, is simple to operate, easy to aim and hit with when using a red dot, with good ammo causes non survivable wounds that can incapacitate immediately and will reduce risks of over penetration, reloading is a near non issue in a home invasion, and if you do need to reload is extremely easy to do so, can easily and ergonomically mount a white light, and is relatively inexpensive.
Pistol rounds suck. Putting them in a rifle doesn’t change that, yet now you have a gun as big as a short AR15 without the lethality.
300 BO subs suck in humans. Better than a pistol, but not by much. Super sonic 300 BO can be very good, but really no better than good 5.56mm
All rounds cause permanent hearing damage inside a house when not suppressed. I would not choose a less capable platform due to a misguided belief that one will save your ears. Dudes did CQB with M4 including shorties without ear pro for years. Stupid- yes, but they did it and could communicate.
I'm kind of old fashioned. I like wheel guns. I like lever guns. I like shotguns (I really would like a Winchester 1897). I don't own an AR platform rifle and the only thing close I have is an M1 Carbine I inherited. I also don't own a Glock.......
I have read enough and talked enough to people that know to understand that Formidilosus is giving solid advice. I should probably get and AR and a Glock, but....OOOooo, another wheel gun or hunting rifle prevents that. I probably won't need anything more that what I got, but if you are looking for the correct answer, I think the above is it.
I’ve seen what a shotgun does to humans up close. 00 buck, breaching, and bird shot. It’s not the hammer of Thor that old dudes like to think it is, and multiple shots to incapacitate is relatively common.
I've been on 2 scenes where people were shot with shotguns; both died where they fell.
One was shot just above the left knee with #4 shot from across a room at about 12-15', femoral artery was taken out, died where he fell in a pool of blood, don't know how long it took for him to die but he apparently never moved.
Other one was shot in the head & about half his face & the side of his head was gone, 00 BS from also with the same room, death was more or less instantaneous.
Sample of 2, both same result.
I prefer a 14.5" AR with a red dot, but I wouldn't feel too bad off if a shotgun was all I had, but it surely isn't as easy to handle in some circumstances.
FWIW
MM
I'd agree with this too. Though my shotgun is pretty much regulated to "behind a bed with the barrel on the door" duty.
Everyone thought the old shotgun went the way of the dodo bird in the Army. Until Iraq hit, then they started pulling the old 870 out of storage shipping them to units to take to Iraq. Mossberg 500 as well. They were using them mainly in urban fighting in fallujah, Sadr City etc.
An M4 handle,losing The Loudener and a mag shy of need roller skates...are steps in a very right direction. Congratulations?!?
Irons are a poor bet,given Red Dot sanctity Today.
Hint............
A guy at the range few weeks ago had an ar pistol in 7.62x39 holee ph uck. He started shooting, I had to go get ear plugs put then in then put my ear muffs gd that thing was loud. If someone shoots an ar pistol in a house they wont be hearing anyone scream, they will just hear ringing in there ears..
If you don't bring the right gun to the gunfight, you'll be dead, and your "cochlear hair cells don't regenerate."
If you don't properly solve the immediate and urgent gunfight problem in the correct manner, none of the other stuff matters.
How copy?
David so it’s wrong to have a 45 ACP is a braced larger pistol with a light and a red dot sight? I suppose I plan too much for worst case scenarios.
If you have a rifle (like an AR) in a rifle caliber (like 5.56) and you're using a pistol, why are you doing that?
I have plenty of pistols around the ranch configured like yours (except in 9mm because there is no demonstrated difference in lethality, and I get 2-3 more rounds), but the bedroom is a last-stand, and I have a rifle there.
The AR is easier to operate, easier to make hits with, more capacity, more lethal than a pistol or pistol caliber AR or other carbine.
If you’re worried about over penetration, use frangible 5.56 ammo, with some heavy (75 BTHP, etc.) near the bottom of the mag in case things remain sporty.
So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar. I would like to put one together for her to keep at the house. Im considering 5.556 or 300 blackout with 10.5 or 16" barrels. Thoughts on muzzle blast, over penetration, recoil, barrel lengths and caliber pros and cons etc.? Thanks
The op has only made the one post with no details other than home defense. He doesn’t say where he lives, rural, suburb or city. We don’t know if he means a nightstand firearm (handgun) for a burglary in the middle of the night or are we repelling borders from multiple attackers overwhelming his house. And what size house are we talking? Since he mentioned over penetration I am guessing he means shooting inside, and Dan’s response makes the most sense. My shack is 40 by 24 in a subdivision and a round from an AR with non-frangible bullets will penetrate several houses. A shotgun round of birdshot will for all practical purposes act like a slug inside my dwelling and by the time it reaches a neighbor not have enough energy to cause much grief. No other round or weapon short of a handgun (that the wife can’t shoot well) with Glasers or some other frangible bullet will work in this situation.
A 20 gauge shotgun loaded with 7/8ths of an once of shot will work if his situation is similar to mine. She still needs to learn proficiency and a shotgun that fits her might make the most sense.
a round from an AR with non-frangible bullets will penetrate several houses.
No, it won't.
In reality, the rounds will tumble and also exterior walls are full of stuff like studs, wiring, exterior finishes, etc. So, no, never will it go through several houses, unless and until you line up a bunch or windows that are open.
This is the type of reasoning that leads to the conclusion that you reached. Do you have five walls stacked inches apart?
Dave I think your video proved my point completely. While you are correct I wouldn’t have 10 sheets of Sheetrock instead one sheet then thin plywood then vinyl siding then out. None of the house here have fiberglass insulation, most just the foam between the plywood and the siding. I wouldn’t bet on the bullet tumbling and the next house in line is built the same way. I also wouldn’t bet on hitting a stud or something metallic. I don’t have that kind of luck.
Dave I have read your posts and know you have a lot of firearms/military experience but most stick built homes just are not thick enough and in the subdivisions I am familiar with in Connecticut are to close.
Wall penetration, be it interior, exterior or a mix of the two is a very complex event and I'll be the first to acknowledge the likelihood of injury to innocent bystanders outside a home is very low. It is however not a possibility to ignore, in my opinion. More to the point is what may happen inside in context of adjacent rooms. There is much latitude to avoid such disasters, ie. just don't take the shot at that moment. Don't let an intruder call the play.
I have to smile a little about the assertion that shotguns are awkward to reload. Maybe for some, but I was raised shooting scatterguns and I'm not of the same opinion. About 20 years back or so I was walking GA creek bottom country and came across a band of hogs. The gun I learned to shoot with was in my hands, a H&R Topper Mod. 88 chambered for the deadly .410. Buckshot loads were not readily available at the time and I carried slugs. I had one in the chamber and 4 in my left hand when I jerked the trigger first time. Before the survivors scurried away two were down, one was seriously wounded and I credit myself with 2 misses. Figure out how long it takes a wad of porkers to leave the scene and you'll have an idea about how long it took to reload my SS break action shotgun, aim and shoot 4 more times. The last one I shot splattered blood all over my jeans and shoes. Maybe he was of Japanese heritage, I dunno.
I have a fair population of shotguns at present, 20, 16 and 12 ga. pumps, autos, O/U and SxS. Can I shoot 30 rounds as fast as a M4? Don't be silly, but there aren't any protracted moments of silence between shots if I'm so disposed.
As stated previously, pick your tool, know how to use it and kick ass if circumstances require such action. How you judge affairs and defend yourself is more important than my opinion. How effective you are is up to you.
David, we can agree to disagree. Most folks have a 9mm pistol, 45ACP, 380, 38 special sitting in the house as a home defense weapon, others have a shotgun, some have a 10.5 or 11.5 or 7 inch braced ar pistol for use in the home, but for my uses a 10.5 inch 5.56 AR pistol weapon while it may be more handy and yes its more powerful than a 9mm, 45ACP etc but its just not what I would use. A 16 inch Colt 6920 with a streamlight and an aimpoint maybe yes, but not a short pistol type ar.
I shot countless weapons/rounds in the USMC without hearing protection. I'm sure that it did not help my hearing, which is below average, but not too bad.
I once stupidly forgot to reinstall my hearing protection before firing my .375 Wby indoors. I don't think it did much, and I still could hear what was going on around me. If my home was being invaded, the last thing I would worry about would be the noise of a 5.56 or 7.62 AR pelting out rounds at some armed invader(s). The noise in front of the barrel is much greater, which (if there were multiple intruders) likely, alone, would lead the ones that weren't hit with the first shot(s) to flee.
I know you all have heard/read it before, but I am a follower of the concept that: "It's good to have a handgun … so I can get to my rifle."
This is my first option/choice if I can get to it (7.62):
As far as pistol caliber carbines go, I would not feel under-gunned with my 10mm carbine, which produces almost the same muzzle energy of 5.56/.223:
It takes the same mags as my G40 10mm.
But I first would go to my 7.62/.308 20" DPMS GII Hunter.
David, we can agree to disagree. Most folks have a 9mm pistol, 45ACP, 380, 38 special sitting in the house as a home defense weapon, others have a shotgun, some have a 10.5 or 11.5 or 7 inch braced ar pistol for use in the home, but for my uses a 10.5 inch 5.56 AR pistol weapon while it may be more handy and yes its more powerful than a 9mm, 45ACP etc but its just not what I would use. A 16 inch Colt 6920 with a streamlight and an aimpoint maybe yes, but not a short pistol type ar.
A lot of interestingly comments and opinions. A lot depends on your definition of "home." Home to some is a 650 sq ft apartment with a common wall that has 2" of air space between the sheets of drywall. Home to others might be a 3,000 sq ft residence with a large yard on an acre or two - with closest neighbor waaay down the road. "Home Defense" to some might mean stopping the intruder at the front door or the burglar in the bedroom, while to others it might mean stopping the threat at the gate to your driveway, which is 80 yards from your front door.
At the end of the day, in all likelihood what you have within reach is what you will probably use. With that said, we have 9mm, .45ACP, and .380 pistols strategically located in the house (wife's .380 carry pistol & my .45 carry pistol + a 9mm thrown in for good measure). We also have an AR 300 blackout pistol loaded with subsonics but with a handy mag of supers (and with a can in jail) at the foot of the bed. We live on acreage and don't have close neighbors. For our circumstances, we are pretty confident that we have the bases covered.
You shoot someone 80 yards outside your front door, You got some splainin' to do.
Not that it couldnt be self defense, but you won't start with the benefit of the doubt. Even with the castle doctrine.
dillonbuck, nobody starts with the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Too many blues around stealing oxygen just dying for the opportunity to hang you for just ownng a firearm and now you have the absolute gall to use it to defend yourself? How dare you.
Keep an AR an AR and one is in GOOD hands. Get "cute" and deviate...then ALL bets are off.
The Pistol Caliber Bullschit is akin to Women's LIB. Simply a fhuqktard emotion,less merit. ALL is compromised on the platform and such things DO effect "reliability". Keep your poosy,here's a rifle for YOUR protection.
I've YET to visit a house,where a Murderer gets a "pass",due to the blueprint. HINT.
The M4 is THE constant and should be a TAUGHT Discipline. To waiver,interjects mind numbing STUPID fhuqking "possibilities" and to linger is a GREATER disservice. HINT.
None of this schit is "difficult",let alone subject to "debate".
You shoot someone 80 yards outside your front door, You got some splainin' to do.
Not that it couldnt be self defense, but you won't start with the benefit of the doubt. Even with the castle doctrine.
dillonbuck, nobody starts with the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Too many blues around stealing oxygen just dying for the opportunity to hang you for just ownng a firearm and now you have the absolute gall to use it to defend yourself? How dare you.
You’re still alive in this scenario? Then you win.
Let's take this 20mm cannon to 22 LR discussion another step. What about the FN 5.7 x 28? I also notice some of the AR pistol manufacturers offer a braced pistol in 5.7 x 28? I know nothing about this round except it was the choice of the muslim terrorist at Ft. Hood.
If you can afford enough 5.7x28 to become proficient (2,000 rounds), then more power to you.
Another of the advantages of the 5.56 is cheap practice ammo. And it’s available everywhere.
I noticed the cheapest you could get it was 38 cents a shot for FMJ. I don't own one. However some smaller framed people might be able to become more proficient with them as they do not recoil as much. I suppose becoming proficient has something to do with your recoil tolerance but again usually I am wrong
This whole “223 penetrates through walls” thing died 20 years ago. The reason that everyone went away from the 9mm, 10mm, and 45 sub guns to the 5.56mm carbine indoors is because 223’s penetrate LESS through walls. Beyond the fact that “over penetration” worry’s are almost entirely baseless (find how many times rounds went through a bad guy and hit an innocent.....), versus rounds not penetrating deep enough to reach vitals- relatively common. People suggesting varmint billets for the 223/5.56mm need to educate themselves.
Make life easy-
M4 platform Aimpoint red dot Surefire flash light Good mags Federal Fusion
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Let's take this 20mm cannon to 22 LR discussion another step. What about the FN 5.7 x 28? I also notice some of the AR pistol manufacturers offer a braced pistol in 5.7 x 28? I know nothing about this round except it was the choice of the muslim terrorist at Ft. Hood.
Extremely narrow wound channels, about the same as a 22 mag. I haven’t used the 5.7mm other than on the range, but I have seen the results from multiple shootings and like the MP7’s 4.6mm round- it’s a one mag per one person deal... preferably in the face.
Both the 5.7mm and 4.6mm are poor choices for use against humans for the vast majority of needs. One can get the same thing with less effort with a 22WMR.
sadly this is what I seem to have colt 6920, pmags, 62 grain fusion or 64 grain gold dot, aimpoint, streamlight, but that does not stop me from enjoying the illuminated discussions here. I always thought the 5.7 x 28 was about the same as a 22 magnum but rabid fans made me afraid to say so. OTOH the recoil is light as I have shot one as well.
Boys decided one day to test some buckshot on a broadhead target. It was a two foot thick styrofoam 4x4' block against the barn. In short, the buckshot traveled thru the styrofoam, thru the barn wall and then out the opposite barn wall across the driveway to points unknown.
The pellets that did not exit the off-wall were embedded in it after going thru both sides of a large antique white porcelain counter scale.
They complained about the recoil from the 6 1/2# 870. I was not amused.
Tomk, that would be one reason I don't care for buckshot, particularly the larger sizes. It penetrates far better than most imagine, and this case far more than is necessary. If compelled to use large shot I'd take #2 or BB, maybe...just maybe....#4 buck....in the 2-3/4" style.
you need to beware Digital, there will be some that say if you don't bring enough gun or the right size buckshot you will not have to worry about how much hearing damage you get or how much sheet rock you will shooting thru. OTOH my childhood friend and I shot large pine tree's down with 12 guage shotguns and bird shot at close ranges, well almost contact ranges.
David, if you can shoot a pine tree down with #71/2 shot then surely at close range even a mensa member should be able to deduct that its power is indisputably destructive. However I have to give you the benefit of the doubt in this discussion as reading comprehension seems to be a bit outside of your wheelhouse.
It's a 20" AR, the same length and lighter than the M16s we successfully used countless times clearing buildings in Kuwait in 1991. If you can't defend a dwelling with a 20" barreled AR, you're doing something wrong.
If you can afford enough 5.7x28 to become proficient (2,000 rounds), then more power to you.
Another of the advantages of the 5.56 is cheap practice ammo. And it’s available everywhere.
I noticed the cheapest you could get it was 38 cents a shot for FMJ. I don't own one. However some smaller framed people might be able to become more proficient with them as they do not recoil as much. I suppose becoming proficient has something to do with your recoil tolerance but again usually I am wrong
Did you really just string the words "5.56" and "recoil sensitive" together?
I can add a little to what Digital Dan and MontanaMan said, lab coat guy showed me some pics and let me read a report, it was of a well deserved that caught a full load of 12 bore buckshot in the spine just above the belt line, he of course died on the spot, the puzzling part to me was that 'both' of hips were knocked out of socket, call it what you may, or what it is, i don't know, I can only come up with massive force, momentum.
Up close, a 12 gauge shotgun is a hell of a payload for a humanoid to inherit.
David, if you can shoot a pine tree down with #71/2 shot then surely at close range even a mensa member should be able to deduct that its power is indisputably destructive.
Not to get in your argument... but trees are not elastic tissue. # 7 1/2 birdshot penetrates about 4 inches inside of a room in tissue.
I really shouldn't but that's never stopped me before...
Knew of 3 shotgun deaths in my life, from the yard to the porch, homeowner died but not sure of shot size. 20 gauge across a kitchen table, 8 shot let daylight through a man's chest. 00 buck into a man at 30 yards, autopsy showed one pellet penetrated a lung causing the death.
As I said before I got pistols stashed about the house and a good M1 Benelli in the safe along with 00 and #4 buck but I'm grabbing my Colt 6720 if I can.
Hawk, must be the pic, it looks like a 24" gun to me.
Hawk, must be the pic, it looks like a 24" gun to me.
No problem. It's fairly compact, recoils fairly little, holds 21 rounds, and makes massive debilitating wound channels.
This one after penetrating through more than 2-feet of an animal:
I wont be thinking of noise and over-penetration if someone, in my home, is trying harm my family. Big holes through the intruder(s) likely leaves flattened lead slugs that won't inadvertently strike neighbors that aren't that nearby.
Irrelevant alert: Aside from self defense, it is more accurate than all but a few of my bolt rifles. I can get under 1/2" groups from it. Same with the NRA:
"This GII Hunter I tested blew me away with its accuracy. I was primarily testing that rifle for our sister publication American Hunter and didn't even plan to include it in this article, but the performance is too impressive to ignore. American Hunter uses three, three-shots groups with three different loads as a test protocol. With the Black Hills 168-gr. load, the first group measured 0.30". That was the best, but the average of three groups was 0.47". The average for all nine groups was 0.80". From an out-of-the-box AR-L shooting factory ammunition, that is very impressive accuracy." https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/1/5/downsizing-dpms-gii-ars/
Part of the 1-gun philosophy I accept. Like many ARs I am intimately familiar with, this one feels like an extension of my body. I wouldn't want to be an intruder in my home if I had it in my hands even if it is 4-inches longer than an M4.
Plenty of people have successfully defended their homes with much longer hunting rifles. This one is fairly compact and ferociously deadly.
In the end my benelli is in the safe, but the 6920 is in my room, the point I was making is a shotgun will blow a large hole thru you at point blank range, I know a guy whose brother shot his leg off at the knee rabbit hunting walking behind him and had an AD with a 12 gauge. This is not fudd crap its just a fact that at point black range to I think about 10-12 feet a center chest wound with bird shot would not be survivable, the heart would be destroyed.
oddball. I take offense at that. LOL. Not that I'd be the one with some birdshot in the gun at times... doesn't bother me in our small house, but then again its often holding #4 buck. But the AR is right there.
Off to the penetration AR thing, I could care less really, but FWIW, 69 BTHP SMKs, go all the way through a side by side refrigerator at about 300 steps or so... I was trying to foul a barrel before NTIT practice at home once... so I dumped a 10 round mag into an OLD fridge, IE probably about as old as S/S come... so still fairly well built... I was amazed later to go to the creek and find 10 exit holes...And th 69s do expand because I'm not afraid to shoot game with them if thats what I have in the mag....
This might be handier and if you’re David the shepherd boy, pretty effective. It did deter a big pit bull in my yard one day when one of these ~ 35 cal ball bearings caught him in the butt at about 25 yards.
Yep, quiet - no hearing protection. Components - cheap No jams Fool proof loading Long pouch-life No sight adjustments Will not over-penetrate
Cons: Will not stop a charge. May irritate an adversary.....😮😀
Seriously, I believe a big-mouthed, repeating, short-barreled shotgun to have a very sobering effect; if it’s beyond that stage, it will seriously affect the unsobered.
I would not recommend the 20mm Vulcan. It's loud and the recoil is bothersome. AP rounds will over penetrate and HE has a blast radius that is not compatible with the average home.
I enjoy these conversations, Digital its evident that we all have our individual ideas, points of view, and eccentricities. While many might scoff at a 22 LR auto loader with 10 rounds in it, another person might find that its the only thing they shoot well, the 22 LR HP is quite lethal over and over again in news stories over my lifetime, but so are many other weapons. All joshing and baiting of fellow campfire members aside, if pressed a 22/45 lite would make do the 22LR is a lethal round, and admittedly I am probably more accurate with a 22 auto loader than any other pistol I own as I probably flinch, and I admit this. However I admit to liking the Glock 19 with an insight systems light and laser with 124 grain HST cartridges, and I have a reasonable amount of skill with the AR pattern rifles equipped with a red dot. All things considered even a tomahawk is better in the hands of a determined individual who knows how to use a tomahawk than an AR15 in the hands of someone who struggles to find the safety on it.
Kinda funny but kinda not. At one time finances were real skinny. My home defense "set" was a short Ruger Single Six with the .22 mag cylinder and a 1900-s vintage falling axe with about 10 inches of cutting edge. Stick your hand through MY window and you might leave but your hand and any other body parts beyond the window sill would not.
So far as home defense, I think there's a lot to be said for a pistol caliber carbine. We don't always have time to grab ear muffs. I'm not saying my AR is loud, mind you, but a buddy runs cows about 3 miles up the hill from the rifle range. One day at work he commented on how much noise was coming from the range. He said whatever it was he heard was quite a bit louder than the regular hunting rifles. We talked about day and time ... that noise was me with a Ruger MPR testing loads. Worth some consideration, I think.
A direct hit from 00 buckshot out of a 12 or 20 gauge will instantly incapacitate a human inside of 10 yards . If the fight spills into the yard an AR may be a better choice . I don't worry about over penetration through sheetrock walls , that actually plays into my strategy in a home invasion . I don't have any close neighbors just me , woman and dogs here . Some will argue that a AR is better because it's what they have trained with and that's a good reason . They are better off using what they are familiar with .
Confrontations in the home, several types. A burglary where no one was thought to be home, or the worst would be an armed/no weapon confrontation where the perp is going to do you harm in a robbery or assault.
The type that knowingly breaks into your home with the owners in the house is the most dangerous by far, kill or be killed scenario. Most burglars will run like hell when they are confronted with or without a weapon.
So my wife has struggled with accurately and reliably shooting a pistol but has seemed to do exceptionally well with an ar. I would like to put one together for her to keep at the house. Im considering 5.556 or 300 blackout with 10.5 or 16" barrels. Thoughts on muzzle blast, over penetration, recoil, barrel lengths and caliber pros and cons etc.? Thanks
This thread has gotten off on a rabbit trail. If I were setting one up for my wife I'd do a short barrel, AR pistol w/ suppressor. Either caliber mentioned has merit. In 5.56 I'd go with Black Hills 77grOTM, in the .300BO I'd still have to do some homework. I'd also consider the .300Ham'r. More than worrying about hearing damage I'd worry about terminal performance. A red dot or reflex sight and a weapon light with a pressure switch would also be on my list. Functional familiarity is key regardless of what weapon is chosen. Under the stress of this type of confrontation, people break down to whatever level of training they've practiced to. Muscle memory and function will rule the day. Given the amount of practice I'd lean toward the 5.56.
Normal 20 gauge birdshot loads come in at about 1275 foot-pounds. A youth model 870 in 20 gauge points like a wand even for my petite wife. Inside you average living room it will suffice.
Having run shotguns, ARs, PCCs, and pistols in ‘room clearing’ scenarios, a shotgun is not my ‘first’ choice, but all will get the job done. Hits matter. The rest is up to whatever you want. HD may actually be the only place I think a 300 blk is a pertinent choice, if you care about recoil, noise, blast, ease of use, and effectiveness.....in balance. It beats a PCC, has lest recoil than a shotgun, less noise and blast than a 5.55, runs good in short barrels or suppressed, and good bullets for vermin/defense. For a wife who likes to shoot and wants to train, a 300 AR might get mastered enough far easier/sooner than the other options. I have them all nearby. I also know that even bird shot will go through several layers of wall board/sheet rock, and #4 buck will go through 3-4 rooms and (at soft angles) deflect and skitter down Sheetrock in hallways and ceilings like rubber balls. Rifle/pistol rounds change course less against typical house stuff than round balls at soft angles, or so it seems. JME....not saying it’s more than the next guy OR what you should choose, other than attempt to practice and train so whatever you use, requires zero conscious thought if rattled.
We still chatting this up after all these years and dead bodies and bullet and caliber studies. All that matters is that the shooter quickly puts multiple hits in the kill zone with what ever weapon they are shooting and they will have a corpse they can be proud of. Just get good with your gun, shoot fast and accurately and don't stop shooting till what ever you decide to shoot the crap out of is toast. Just saying....
Describe every detail of the bad guy, scenario, wife, location... then, we might get to the right gun.
But, it will be compromised as soon as details change. In real life, every choice is a compromise. You need to start with what the shooter is competent with, then start checking boxes.
I've looked at this issue for a long time, and keep coming back to an AR. Better ergos, capacity, flexibility, reliability.
I live in fairly nice suburbs, but in the past 8 months there's been two home invasions within 5 miles of me, with multiple armed perps. In one case a homeowner checked on a noise and was shot to death. In another case armed suspects broke in in the middle of the night, and were frightened away by the home alarm. Two suspects were charged with capital murder in the first case; the 2nd I've read nothing about perps being captured.
There have been similar crimes throughout the area, so apparently multiple armed invaders are in fashion. So - no revolver for me, for serious social purposes. A Colt 6920 and a Daniel DDM4V5 get the nod as house guns. They work well, and never, ever, not ever...jam. There are also high-cap 9mm pistols handy.
I've dabbled with PCC's. Part of me wants to believe that a modern version of a Tommy Gun would be perfect, but there are compelling arguments to the contrary
I've never been crazy about the notion of pump shotguns, or any "tactical shotgun". I watched a guy at the range one day with a Benelli M4 - about as uber as you can get in a shotgun. At the 30 yard patterning board, a load of 00 buckshot made a about a 6 inch pattern. So yeah devastating when it hits, but you have to aim it just as well as a rifle, and you only get 8 shots, plus much worse ergos. And the M4 is damn expensive.
I like the idea of the bullpup shotguns, like the KSG, but the reliability is suspect. The ergos are a mixed bag.
A pistol AR seems more feasible, as far as ergos in close quarters. They will merit further investigation.
Multiple invaders seem to be the norm these days. I recall a couple of years ago a group of youth invaded the home of a woman who owned a Chinese restaurant, she started unloading on them with a G17 IIRC, the home had an internal video camera as they stored restaurant supplies there. They were moving like their heads were on fire and their asses were catching. I think one assumed the deceased position and another was shot.
Multiple invaders seem to be the norm these days. I recall a couple of years ago a group of youth invaded the home of a woman who owned a Chinese restaurant, she started unloading on them with a G17 IIRC, the home had an internal video camera as they stored restaurant supplies there. They were moving like their heads were on fire and their asses were catching. I think one assumed the deceased position and another was shot.
There was one a few years back where the home owner left something like 6 or 7 dead. As I recall, he had a Mossberg 590. Don't know what he was shooting out of it, but what ever it was, it worked.
the funny thing is that you still see a lot of people advocating for a 5-6 shot revolver these days "for the little lady" when most every criminal involved in a home invasion is carrying a high capacity 9mm of some sort.
Zackly. I don't arm for the average street encounter. I arm in my home to repel boarders and to keep momma and the kids safe.
It's ponderous that people here argue for their 2nd Amendment right to arm with an AR-15 to "fight government oppression," when that's pretty unlikely.
And argue for limiting their firepower when they have to protect everything that is important in their homes, which is millions of times more likely.
I don't get it.
But I find that more and more often these days.....
Originally Posted by jimmyp
the funny thing is that you still see a lot of people advocating for a 5-6 shot revolver these days "for the little lady" when most every criminal involved in a home invasion is carrying a high capacity 9mm of some sort.
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a couple pounds of horseshoe nails would be rough.
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I vote for a Howdah pistol instead. Two Shots