Considering buying some of these should they ever get back in stock, and wondered how accurate each might be along with which might be a better bullet to shoot pigs with?

Id be looking at the TMK instead of either of those 2

The SMK has been more accurate out of the lot, (75 BTHP's and NCC's), and performs well enough. That said any of them will perform well enough on pigs.

I've not been that happy with the accuracy of the 73 grain TMK's but haven't tried real hard either. I should order some 80's to try in my 22-250AI but that's another deal.

Wouldn't some of the hunting bullets such as the 60gr NP work well too? I'm just saying this because some people get caught up with what the military is using. You have to remember that they are limited to what they can use due to the Hague Accords. Civilians can use whatever they want.

are the 77's fairly reliable on coyote's?

I haven't shot any coyotes with them but in my guns the 77SMKs were more accurate than the Hornady 68s.
Having said that, I won't be buying anymore 500 round boxes of the SMKs. The last box I bought was obviously a mix of at least 3 lots with bullet B to O varying by up to .030".

Yes they kill coyotes very well.

But I've also killed hogs with the 55 grain NBT's.

It's much easier to get the SMK's to shoot well.

Agreed. Since he mentioned pigs, I didn't think that long range accuracy was that important.

In the purest sense of accuracy, the 77 SMK's are really hard to beat, day in, day out.

Some people say the 77 TMK's don't shoot at well, but in cursory tests that I've done, there's not a lot of meaningful difference...........I'm not splitting hairs on a tenth of an inch.

And they generally get their accuracy are velocities higher than the sweet(est) spot for the Hornady's.

And I think the 69 gr TMK's are really accurate as well, they just don't carry the LR ballistics of the 77's but still damn good.

I don't think any game that those bullets are suitable for would know much difference in what bullet they got hit with.

MM

The only reason I mentioned the 77 TMK is because it penetrates so well. It passes the FBI penetration tests, where other bullets dont. Also formid says good things about them. I started using them and they are very accurate in all of my ar's.

How do those Sierras stabilize in 1-9's? I'm playing with JBM now and it looks like the MK will but always good to get people's experience.

I couldn't get the 75 grain Hornady HPBT to shoot real well in a pair of AR's. So I tried some of the 77 TMK's which have been real good in the past and they shot better. I'd try a 100 of both before you decide, just cause either is a great bullet, seen both the 75 Hornady and 77 TMK work on coyotes up to deer pretty well. The Hornady is a pile less expensive, but if it doesn't shoot, it doesn't do you any good.

Hornady 75 HPBT





77 TMK's

For me the 75gr HPBT doesn't do as well when pushed too fast. Try 23.5gr of Benchmark; that does about 2650-2680 fps in my 16" 223 Wylde barrel, and is more accurate than any of the 77gr SMK loads I found for the same barrel. With that said, the 69gr SMK was easy to find a good load for - a max charge (per Western Powders 6.0 5.56 load data) of XTerminator & seat to 2.255"; that one and the 65gr SGK shot consistently better than any of the 75/77gr stuff in that barrel, and considerably faster too. I did not have very good luck with the 69gr TMK, although I was hopeful. That's a 1:8 barrel, which is enough twist for all of the above, but the tipped bullets end up with so much jump to the lands that I think that's the problem.

I've never tried the 77 SMK but have shot many of the 69 MK and 69 TMK in ARs and a fast twist CZ bolt-action. I've also tried a few boxes of the Hdy. 68 & 75 Match bullets. Never could get the Hornadys to shoot quite as accurately as the 69 Sierras. Another that will shoot as accurately as the 69 MK (to 200 yards anyway, about as far as I'll ever shoot an AR ) is the Sierra 65 GK boat tail soft point, and it's a hunting bullet. I was hoping the Hornadys would shoot well as they are considerably cheaper than the Sierras. Best powder I've found for any of these bullets has been H4895, with TAC being a fairly close second.

Try Switching to a WSR primer..

Roger that. Will grab a brick the next time I see them. Thank you for the heads up.

I've always had slightly better accuracy with the Sierra 77's than the 75. But, the 75's still shoot good in my rifles and are a good bit cheaper, so that's usually what I keep mags filled with. 24gr of TAC and LC brass has never been a bad load for me.

If I were looking for a dedicated hunting bullet though, I'd probably go with the 77TMK.

Good intel WE. Thank you.

the 75's are a good bit cheaper, a lot of good information here.

So for the 77 you need a what twist rate?. will the 75's work with 1/8? Mb

Yes.
I like a minimum of 8" twist for 75/77s. Some 9 twist barrels will shoot them fine, but there aren't any guarantees on that.

Thanks Tyrone I thought I'd heard that the 1/8 was good for HORN 75 HPBT but didn't know if they would work wit Sierra 77's. Have to get some 77 and try them.

Exactly on the 75. Don't expect to push it hard, it gets wonky when pushed hard. That said I probably have a couple thousand loaded at maybe 24 of RL15, not really smoking hot and it works well enough.
77 smk beats it accuracy wise all day long. We got the 75s at good prices in the day so I used quite a few, actually used other H bullets by the cases, but the 75 we used for game.

I've shot enough with either 75 bthp and 77 smk that either will work fine.

I"ve seen a Boone and Crockett buck killed with 69 smks.... bang flop. No bones hit, well maybe ribs but nothing major. Around 177 net IIRC. Almost 50 inches of mass.

I"ve never seen or shot TMK.

1 in 8 works great with the 77's:


I just need to run them faster. Hopefully find a good accuracy node with the gas pedal mashed a bit more...

Dang, you guys are shooting longer range bullets in your AR's than i, have only shot stubby bullets in my house and farm 5.56/223's, I can say hand loaded 55/62gr TSX, 64gr Nosler bonded, and the Federal load with a 62/64 gr bullet, think it's a Bear Claw will work well on pigs, deer and coyotes out to around 190 yards.

None are very fast in the 16 inch barrels, 27-2800 fps, the Nosler bondeds, and Federal load has produced quicker kills for me, and show more reaction to the hit over the monos.

LOL! I'm sure you feel deprived! Not.

Sounds like a personal problem that is easily remedied...............................

MM

are the mono hits dead? LOL
I snap shot at a pair of pigs the other night, 16 inch 223. Maybe a 60 yard shot as they were walking to the brush through tall grass.. I was waiting to line 2 up which I did. Hit with 50 grain old Speer big azz HP bullet. You'd think a 50 pound pig would flop... never even found sign of a hit. Though there were buzzards there the next day and been a pretty good stink up there now when we drive by for the last few days.. Dunno that the 52 barnes would have been better but I'd have bet the big HP would have ripped em wide open.... I'd have sure expected to walk up and see a dead one there just inside the brush line....

I never tried to 77 in an AR kind of figured they were a little long so do you guys at have have you tried the 75 eld's?

Yes, deprived, LOL, all my 5.56/223 but one wear red dot sights, only one has a scope, I just dont run 'em long, much better hammers for stretching it for what I do, great house guns though.

Yes, it's called a 7.62 REPR with 2.5-10 NF.

Yes, dead, but not dead as quick, and many times not much reaction to a hit, the 'bonded' soft points have a hell of a splat factor "plus" plenty of penetration.

So how fast are you guys running these 77 grain bullets?

2725-2750 with an 18" barrel with AR-Comp, XBR-8208, Alliant 2000-MR.

MM

This^^
2730 to 2750 seems to be the sweet spot in several of my rifles

Ok, thats way above book loads and when i approached or exceeded 2700, they seemed a little stiff. What was quite surprising was the velocity differences i got, using 3 different 20" tubes and my savage predator with a 1 in 9 twist. I was surprised that tube stabilized the TMK quite well.

Not above book, Hodgdon's 8208 XBR MAX load for a 77SMK is 23.2 gr. and 2,796 fps.
Western Powders, TAC, MAX 23.4 gr at 2,759 fps
Hodgdon, Benchmark MAX, 22.8gr at 2,763 fps

Its above book for ar comp. Go back and read my posts. Did you go to school in Nevada?

Remember that Alliant's info does not list a range of loads, only one, & that is labeled as 223, not 5.56.

Here's a link to a large series of tests (about 12 episodes) attempting to duplicate BH MK-262 that you might find interesting...............be sure to look of the one that shows the data for the factory BH MK-262 (77gr SMK).

In most cases, my data very closely resembles what he is getting.

MM



BH MK-262 testing

8208 & AR-Comp

4895 & MR-2000

Is everyone from Orygon an asshat?

Unfortunately that Alliant data is for standard 223. I never messed with AR comp with the 77gr TMK. But i have used it with 75gr ELD-M. I used hornady data for the 80gr Eld-m max was 23.2. I used 23.5gr with the 75gr eld-m. .

You might want to check barrel lengths. This one in particular is with a 24" barrel. So, subtract 100fps for a 20" barrel, 150fps for a 18".

Dang j, usually you and mm are the ar comp users here. I have the latest sierra manual with ar and bolt gun recipes for the tmk. Funny thing is they suggest 1 in 8 twist and faster, but my 1 in 9 savage shot them very well.

Many times, 1-9" can be a wild card as to what they will shoot................if you really want to shoot a 75-77 grain bullet, you really need to try it in a particular barrel to see of if works or not.

I have a M-700, 223, 1-9" that shoots most of them just fine..........depends on the particular bullet too.

MM

I think I'm getting 2650 fps with my 77 grain SMK load of 24.5 grains of TAC in my 16" barrels. I've pulled my 77 loads from my phone notes for some reason but I go by the 5.56 pressured loads, not the 223. Sierra always has been very light on their max loads for an AR.

I do remember the 17" Krieger SPR barrel I had got 2725 fps, same as my 18" Noveske SPR barrel.

But unless I'm shooting steel past 600 yards, I'm shooting 55 grain NBT's at 3100 fps in my 16" guns. I have a silhouette at 400 yards that has a heart flapper and a brain flapper, it's pretty easy to make hits on them. 600 is doable if the wind isn't terrible but past that I need lots of help.

bsa,

Go to the Ramshot reloading data page on their website & look at their data.

They are one of the only data sites I've seen that show separate data for the same powder/bullets for both 223 Rem & 5.56 NATO pressures.

Ramshot Data

You can compare the same bullet/powder combos there & get an idea of how much more typical loads change when one steps up to loading to the 5.56 NATO pressure loads.

IIRC, 223 Rem pressure data max's out at around 55K PSI; NATO, while not a SAAMI round, goes to around 62K PSI.

I have seen no other data listed anywhere for AR-Comp that is anything other than for 223 Rem; if data for that powder was developed & published to 5.56 NATO pressure, the loading's would be higher.

I routinely load AR-Comp with 77 gr SMK & Bergers at 22.8-23.0 gr of powder charge...............and that's about exactly where the guy doing the MK-262 clone testing ended up as well (video that I posted).

I think it was Bob Hagel that once said, somewhere, that you never know where the top is until you get there & then back off....................

MM

Anybody using RL15?

I like RL-15 for several cartridges, & used to use it in the AR loading's but I've phased it out in 223/5.56 in favor of AR-Comp.

AR-Comp is a re-formulated version of RL-15 that is more temp stable, finer grained (flows very well) & as re-formulated, came out just a tad faster than RL-15.

MM

I'm using RL15 on the 75bthp, haven't tried it with 77 grainers yet.

With the 75 bthp and an 18" 7 twist barrel, my best accuracy with RL15 has been at around 2,550 fps. Any hotter and my groups open up.

Some very preliminary loads with leverevolution looked promising with the 75bthp at about 100 fps faster, but more testing is needed. This stupid virus has closed my range down.

For awhile AR-comp was hard to find last year l. So probably why I never messed with it with 77 tmk..

Yes

John,

What’s that load?

Yeah, one of my barrels shot them at 2744 fps avg. Weird because my savage bolt gun wasnt shooting them that fast, even with slightly more powder. I wasnt getting any serious pressure signs in that rifle, but was more than a grain over max listing.

24.5gr of RL15 I used CCI BR primer but probably could use cci 400. Bullet seated to 2.250, in LC brass

thanks brother....

That’s where I got the idea to try LVR from. He has a pile of data on his pages.

I just need to pull the trigger and buy a WOA barrel in 223 Wylde. His accuracy improved tremendously when he made the switch.

I’m sure. I guess if I am replacing barrels I’d go with a Krieger or similar that I’d use in my bolt guns. Do the WOA barrels shoot better than those would?

For the money, they are a great buy.............you probably won't find much in their price range that has been lapped; I have 3 of them.

But the Criterion & the button rifled Rock Creek barrels that Craddock uses are about the same or better for around the same price range, maybe a little bit more. And he is just great to work with of you want something in particular.

MM

I’ve heard that he is excellent. Buddy has a 224 V and it just drills with everything.

WOA standard barrels are all Wilson and hand lapped, then they have Krieger, shilen, barrels as well.

Okay, thanks for the G2.

Interesting fact about AR Comp - last time I checked, there's only 1 lot (CE0519) of it out there. I heard there was an early lot, but I've never seen it.

The WOA barrels that I have are all the Wilson blanks, FWIW. They don't foul much either, but that's also true of my Craddock barrel & my Kreiger barrel

MM

Have you tried R7.5 primer with that load? It or WWSR MIGHT make a noticeable difference.

I"m not a huge button fan, generally due to shorter life span. That said if you get a shilen from WOP and it won't shoot there is something else wrong.. you can't outshoot a shilen from them. IMHO.

I probably did, and that’s what got me to where I used cci br primers. I have a notebook full of notes..

You are correct I just looked at my ar comp all the same lot bought different times and different stores

My WOA shilen is a picky sob. Probably the most picky mo fo ive messed with, even pickier than my Noveske 3 land, but when you find a load it likes, it shoots damn well.

That is very interesting. I just got back from testing more loads with AR Comp and 77TMK's. I learned a few interesting things about 4 of my rifles..

Ive never seen a non accurate Shilen in an AR barrel or on a bolt gun for that matter. I have seen an inaccurate, to me, Krieger once.

I suspect if you shoot em all long enough you find anything. Shilens sometimes have taken a bit of work, but generally shooters settle on one barrel that works for them and keep replacing with same. That way the load workup is generally minimal.

I hate it each time I get a new gun, you never know what it may throw at you. Just like all my 284 headaches that finally sure look like it was way oversize brass and a size die from Redding that would not size it any smaller. You really never know.

My buddy loves his shilen barrel when he was shooting competition yes ago that who he used and like you has stuck with them. Far as he’s concerned shilen never turned out a bad barrel..

Mine is accurate as hell with the bullets it likes. Accuracy fell off the map with 90 gr game changers though. Going back to the 77TMK, i found it was very interesting that all of my 20" barreled ar's shot faster than my 22" savage predator, while working up loads with ar comp. And another interesting tid bit, the Noveske looked like it had an edge over the others in the accuracy department. This was a first with that rifle. It will be interesting to see how the Noveske does with 10 shot groups and this heavier sierra. I still havent decided whether i want to run a sedate 2580 fps or around 2660 fps load. These are both accuracy nodes for 3 of my rifles. Ill load up more and let 10 shot groups tell me more...

I shot a 1 shot group last night with the 77TMK. Through a 150lb pig’s shoulders from about 75yds. It died. Quickly.

Shot a buddies AR on Sunday that he was having trouble getting it to shoot. Tried 40gr Varmeggedon tipped over TAC, 53gr Varmeggedon tipped Midway factory load, 55gr Speer SP over 25.5gr Lever, 75 Hornady BTSP over 25gr Lever, and 77TMKs over 25gr Lever. The 77s were the clear winner, 3 shot groups under 1” while the 53 and 55 loads hovered around 1.25”. The 75s were about 1.75” and the 40s over 2”. I know I know 3 shot groups don’t mean anything but shooting several three shot groups with no weirdness tells me nothing is seriously wrong with his rifle.

Shilen has a twist fast enough for a 90?

Funny thing we were so stuck on PacNor because they were the only 6.5 twist 3 groove that did what we needed with 90 jlks that we don't have many shilen. I've shot more than I own.

I'd not be afraid though...

And before pac nor we were Krieger fans.

But then again I know a few times civilian Perry champs, both male and female that shoot only shilen... LOL. That means they beat me because I never was a champ at Perry.

Its a 6mm. I was hoping so, but not the case. Do you know the twist rate of your 6WOA, and which bullets does it prefer. It seems almost pointless to just top out at 85 grains, when all of my 223/556 ar's run 77's so well.

Good intel. Thank you. 77 TMK's and LVR have been working for me and a pards rifle so far. The 75 HPBT's aren't nearly as accurate, but they load easy and I have a bunch so were burning them up for 100 and in stuff since the zero works fine there.

What kind of velocity are you getting with the 77TMK load? I'm in agreement about 3 shot groups and also agree with rost on the subject. If you see something really weird like 2 close together and the other one 2 inches apart, theres no reason to shoot 5 shots into a group. One thing that I see about your loads is its not developing a load per se, so unless your buddy wants to spend a little time actually developing a load for his rifle, he's likely never going to find something that really shoots well in his rifle....When I go to the range and develop a load, its with 1 bullet and maybe the few rifles I want to test that bullet and load with, then I work up. Start with a number from the book where you think you might be able to live with the velocity and go from there. With the little .223 rem case, I've gone as far as .2 gr. jump in charge wt. with each load. With all of my bigger cartridges, its the norm to increase charge wt by 1/2 a grain each time... That and the use of a good chrono, is the best way to find the accuracy nodes.. There's also ladder tests, but its best to shoot those at 300+ yards so you can get a better picture of what that bullet/load is doing... What I see with your post is you are out there shooting for fun. Nothing wrong with that. Just not the way I do it. I first get down and serious when developing a load, then after that, it's shoot for fun and post up some of those results in the challenges here or compete with that load.... However, life would be a simpler place, if we just called 3 shot groups good enough. Some do, some don't....



Usually when I have a good load dialed in and I'm shooting 10 shot groups, the first 4, at least, go into the same hole. Thats when you know you have done your due diligence in finding the best load with the powder you are using for that particular bullet and components...

Great thread guys. I was at the range yesterday messing with my 77TMK loads. Ran into an old marine guy i know and we got on the topic of these heavier bullets. He has been on the 77 SMK and 75gr hornady bthp kick and has tried to duplicate the MK262 mod1 load. He says hes tried TAC, but has had better luck with AA2520. He says his load is real easy to remember because he uses 25.2 grains of powder and uses that charge weight with both bullets the op is asking about. Ive seen him shoot this in his 18" barreled SPR and it does surprisingly well. He says hes averaging 2750 fps with these pills and load. Yesterday he gave me a magazine full of that load to try in my rifles. He laughed at me because i was having a hard time deciding which rifle id shoot his load in. I grabbed the Noveske and he asked, "why that one". I said because its the pickiest one there. I shot a 10 shot group and it was pretty damn centered on the orange dot. From looking through the scope, it appeared to be about a 1 1/8" group. I said, yeah that is a nice load. He said i have a lot of that powder at the house. I said rather than pay for the IMR 8208XBR powder that i just brought you, maybe we can just trade powders. He ran home, and brought me 2 pounds of AA2520 to try out. According to the books, i can get another 100 fps faster velocities vs the ar comp. Probably no where near as temp stable as ar comp, but we will see.

2520's a decent powder. If it had more lot-lot uniformity, it's probably rule the World!

Have you tried WW748?

2520 was a little less accurate for me than RL 15 with the 75bthp in my gun, but it was definitely the runner up, from the stuff I have tried so far.

The only thing 2520 is good for is lawn fertilizer..

I havent, but my friend has used a lot of it. Especially in his grendel.

What’s your rl-15 load?

Well I found a box of 69 gr TMK's that I lost interest in a while back. My initial loads were way slow and accuracy was pitiful. I picked em up and looked at the 77 SMK's, some 69 SMK's and then I noticed the TMK's were 60 grains not 69. If I knew they were 60's when I bought them I certainly forgot but I read up on them and the BC is .323 and thought they might do alright if I can get the speed up around 3000 fps in my 16" barrels. Made 2909 fps with TAC and have room to go higher. Accuracy was not there but getting better with more powder. We'll see.

I could probably run em up to 3700 in my 22-250AI, that wouldn't be bad.

And yes, I'm going back through my bullet stash with my new readers, who knows what I've got.

23.7 grains gives me around 2550 fps. Not the speediest, but decent accuracy. Left group is RL15, right group is factory Hornady 73 grain eld. 100 yds.

Thanks!

You are welcome. I need to get some 77s and try them out. So far that is about as good as I can do with the 75bthp. 5 shot groups are running between about 0.6 and 1 inch with the RL 15 for me, depending on how good I can do that day.

With 22.6 -23.0 grains of AR-Comp, you should be getting for 2725 - 2760.

MM

I was running 2744 fps average with 22gr of AR comp in one rifle. In my bolt gun, with 22" tube, I'm running 22.3gr to get 2680 fps average.
Generally I will not go over book max, but I wasn't getting any pressure signs in the bolt gun. Book max for the bolt gun is 21.3gr, according to sierra. The AR's were starting to show signs of being slightly over gassed and maybe the powder wasnt completely burning.. Loads seemed to be dirtier than I like... and 10 shot groups were slightly wonky with single or 2 flyers and some horizontal stringing.... All signs that the load is not what I want..5 shot groups, on the other hand were mostly sub moa or right at moa... One of the reasons we stress more shots per group. I did not see any adverse signs like these with my slower loads (2550 fps approx) in my AR's... I'll try some of the AA2520 powder when I can get my hands on some more 77TMK pills..My girlfriend snuck out and grabbed me some from Cabela's before she came out to visit.. Don't tell anyone ... I'm actually still surprised my bolt action shot them well and stabilized the 77TMK, considering it's a 1 in 9" twist barrel:


Bullet holes look pretty good (round) and no signs of tumbling... I know this is a thread on AR's and this weight of pill, but maybe some of your 1 in 9" twist ar's will stabilize this bullet as well as my predator does...Just throwing that out there.




Now, it might just be me, but i'd take a slower load that is more accurate any day of the week and twice on sunday, before going with a load that is wonky and unreliable and maybe 150 fps faster. 2550 fps load on 2 different range trips with new Windham Weaponry barrel:

I load the Hornady 75gr BTHP's because I got a good deal on 500 from MidwayUsa.

And they work quite well. But for winning the last in drift in competition the 77s beat the 75s. Just depends on what you are after.

IF you want max speed, avoid the 75s, they will get wonky when pushed hard. 75 amax never did. 75 BTHp always did. Sierras have always been the more accurate of the two over the years. But we too got good pricing on H so used them for practice and non important matches often.

Plus the 75 bthp kills well enough.

How about the Nosler Custom Competition 77 grainers? Anyone compared them to Sierra 77s or Hornady 75s?

I think they are Ok, in most of my guns..................not quite as tight of groups as the SMK, but right around a 1-1.25 MOA & usually cheaper than SMK's. I use the same loading as for SMK's.

MM

748 super temp sensitive in heat. Saw 2 ARs loads worked up in "winter" got to TX heat and blew the mags out of the mag wells... its never on my list.

That's true, but it's probably the velocity champion for those who only care about velocity.

Dunno, I suspect the speeds I got with N540 would top speeds I got with 748. I don't know that for sure though. But N540 was awful fast. Running 90s almost 2800 out of a 20 inch tube... generally ran a bit backed off but that was close to 2750...Not loosing primers or pockets. Relaoding cases up to 20 times....

I'm just going by book loads and the word of some friends who may/may not have ever used 540.
540 is not without it's drawbacks either. It is very hot, hard on barrels. But if you're used to using Varget, you may not notice the diff.

Shot barrels to over 10K rounds with N540. Granted I was pushing em, and they were barely MOA or over at that point. Still won the Louisiana state leg match one year with that old barrel...

That said barrels are cheap enough.

All depends on your goals.

Good thread guys. Good info

They are ok, they like a clean barrel.. once a barrel starts getting dirty the groups start opening up. I used them couple times last year and some others in our club were using them. We all noticed accuracy fell
off after awhile. Now Sierra and Berger’s just keep on shooting.

J, wasnt it you that said you are guaranteed a funky flyer in every box? Ive stayed away from the nosler custom comps, after some poor performance from their 168gr 30 cal bullets. I found i got more consistent accuracy from hornady 165gr interlocks.. it was pretty sad.

Yes you will get oddball flyers as well. I really wanted this bullet to shoot well for me. This was the original bullet used mk262 load it was the mod0. After black hills got Sierra to put a cannelure on the 77gr Sierra rest is history.

Yeah, it sure is nice when you can find good shooting Noslers becasue those damn things can be bought cheap if you get to them at the right time over at SPS. However, I don't trust the damn custom competitions. I'd trust the partitions before those based on what I've seen... Skeered to go back and try them again... Hey J, you said the AA2520 powder is good fertilizer, what was your experience with it? I'll give it a try, but I have to say that I've seen this old guy shoot his load into sub moa 9 shot groups many times. He's kind of weird on his 9 shot group theory though. I guess some guy really pounded that into his head. I was cutting a damn ragged hole with the 77gr TMK with my Northtech defense the other day and then sent the 10th shot way into no where land. I said, If I would have went by your 9 shot idea, I'd be a fu cking hero right now... Kind of pizzed me off that I was getting weird flyers that day, but I was shooting 4 different rifles, was a little rushed, the girlfriend helped me load them. She's cool, shows interest in this chidt. She wanted to drop the powder in the cases and then seat the bullet. I let her do half of them (50 rounds). I'm not blaming her, but my powder measure is finicky and everything has to be done exactly the same way every time for it to be consistent. I was proud of her for wanting to load my ammo though. She sat next to me as I shot these groups too. Well, she sat at the same bench, on the right hander seat... Anyway, back to the load that old guy uses. Those damn things are accurate. After I was done shooting his, I picked up his brass and they were all from a different manufacture, but mostly military brass. Nothing special for primers, he says he prefers CCI400's and has never tried benchrest primers, as I was running BR4's in mine... I'll give that powder a try with some of the 75gr Hornady BTHP bullets he prefers. He sent me the item number from midsouth shooters and said they are $38.00/250 plus shipping. I'd order a thousand of those things if they shoot as good as they appear to shoot. I'll even experiment a little with that powder he gave me.. I'll generally try something and see for myself, before I decide its best used for fertilizer...

I never tried 2520 with the 75gr bthp. I tried it with 77 Sierra otm’s, What didn’t like was the horrendous groups, but SD was in the single digits and very good velocity. I have had this 2520 for awhile maybe the newer lots are better. I need to go find my notebook of notes.

24.7 grains of 2520 was giving me around moa groups with the 75bthp. I never tried to tweak that load any further but I suspect a tenth or two one way or the other might have whittled it down a tad more.

Ok it looks like a I did a primer swap when I used 2520. Initially I used cci 400. Then switched to WSR and I was avg 1.6 inch 10 shot groups. With cci 400 it was no bueno, I also was using nosler. Not 77sierras. So maybe should revisit that powder with TMK’s. I was doing a lot of load development at the time I was after speed to get an advantage over the other shooters, but also needed 1 MOA groups. You can always find 2520 as well. Right now no time to shoot yard cleanup and trying to get a garden put in as well.

My data was 25.5grs of 2520 and was avg 2750 ish out my 18 inch barrel.

Thats good info. I just ordered 1000 75gr bthp hornady bullets.

Has anyone ever found an accuracy load for the 75bthp faster than around 2500-2550 fps? Edit to add, 18" barrel.

The reports on these threads seem to be that the 75bthp doesn't group all that great with the gas pedal floored. So far that seems to be my experience as well, but I am still looking.

It was looking to me like Leverevolution may possibly group them pretty good at a hotter loading, but my friggin' rifle range got shut down before I could really investigate.

How accurate are you looking for? The group i shot the other day was 1 1/8" for 10 shots with a load that runs 2750 fps in an 18" barrel. The guy i know from my club shoots these loads in his spr and they average 1 moa for 9 shots. Maybe you didnt read any of my posts?

I read that somehow as being just the 77SMK. Didn't see that you were using 75bthp as well. Good deal, 25.2 of 2520 with the 75bthp didn't do that well in my gun versus backing off, but glad it worked for you.

After i get those 1000 75gr bthp's, ill work on load development. Ill find out exactly what they will do. As ive said many times, ill take a fairly slow load over a screaming hot load, if the slow load is a lot more consistently accurate. Im hoping ill find something that consistently shoots in the .8's and runs from 2600-2780 fps in multiple rifles. Can it be done? We shall soon see..

I haven't had great luck with the Nosler .224" 77gr CC. Just don't seem to slay the 300 yard target like Lapua, Sierra or even Hornady 75/77s.

However the 52 and 69 have shot well for me and the 80gr has won a fair number of prone matches for me. I used to use Sierra 80s and Berger 80 VLDs, now I don't bother with them. I'm sure the Nosler 80s will hold the 600yd X ring.

Good luck, I hope you find a winner with them up over 2700, but I have not yet seen them scream. Maybe 2520 is the stuff, it was not LVR though.. I'll copy your data when/if it works out. They are cheap.

Right now, the 77 TMK's are working real well though.

2520. This from many moons back. When it shot, it shot well. Next batch, might or might not shoot. Might or might not be within 200 FPS of the last.

Supposedly thats fixed. I don't intend to find out with other powders out there.

I've not had a nosler yet. But I defer to a somewhat known shooting family that tried them and said nope, don't waste your time.

I'd still wager most on Sierra, JLK, Berger and Lapua. Don't think I missed anyone there. Expect maybe even more custom than JLK types...

I personally wouldn't bother with 2520 either. I hate ball powder.

The TMK's seem to be a pretty good bullet. Hopefully availability will get better.

Having bought a 200 pound container of ball WC852, I get small groups and not bad in the heat out of it. It was cheap enough at the time. Maybe 3 bucks or 4 bucks a pound IIRC. Its won a lot of smaller matches. I get good groups 223, 308 etc... out of it. Really good out of 22-250.

TAC is a really good ball powder too.

That said I go on performance rather than just its ball so it meters nice. Like 748. Fast. fairly accurate but so temp sensitive I have no use for it.

RE TMK I heard early on folks not impressed, but there may have been a learning curve. If matches would open up I'd like to just go watch on at our original range in TX just to see whats going on these days.

That is good intel. It seems like the consensus is the 75gr Hornady is less accurate than the 77 sierra in any flavor (SMK/TMK)... I just got some Hornady 75gr HPBT to play around with. I'm anxious to try the load that old guy from my club gave me. He swears by it and he actually shoots that 75gr load pretty well... This has been a good thread with lots of info on some of the heavier bullets.. I'll let you guys know how well my loads shoot. Probably not this weekend, but the one after next. Have a rimfire competition to go to this saturday..

I hit pay dirt with ARcomp and RL 15 the other day.. I do recall now my real bad accuracy with 2520 involved 69gr bullets. One good thing you can always find 2520 in a pinch.

Well that is great news. You know i like AR Comp. Ill cross my fingers with the 2520. We will see.

Great stuff. I need to try some AR COMP. Sounds like it’s A great one!

Of course, YMMV, but what I've seen a lot of HP shooters say about 77SMK vs 75BTHP is that the 75 usually has a wider ES, but a better Mean Radius.
In the end, it's what your barrel likes, but the target is big enough that ES vs MR is usually a wash. In my experience, at my skill levels at the time, I couldn't tell the difference between the two.

ETA: One trick of the trade is to seat 75BTHP short, like from 2.15" to 2.23".

Thanks buddy, ill give that a try. If i can get consistent 1 moa from my Noveske, ill be pretty happy. Have you noticed which bullet shoots better at 400+ yards?

I shoot 80s beyond 300

Which 80’s?

What twist rate? In your krieger with CLE chamber, im assuming

I guess I am old fashioned. I am going to start with game bullets on game animals until testing shows I can't get the accuracy I want. It shouldn't take much to find a game bullet that will hit a pig sized target at reasonable distances. That's not really a task that demands match grade accuracy. That said, I completely get the infatuation with precision accuracy. I am just getting started on reloading with the goal of a very accurate game load and chose the 223 Accubond as my starting point. I scanned through this thread, was their any mention of it?

Most here are after a bullet with a decent bc that can get them to the 600yd line.

I am really late to the thread but I stocked up on 75 BTHP's and Amax's and tried for many years to shoot at least 1.5 MOA consistently out of multiple 16"-20" rifles, builds, and barrels including a stock LE6920 and a PSA 10.5". Barrels included a heavy WOA, pencil Faxon, Medium AR Performance, BHW and BCA. About a year ago I left the range so pissed off I called a buddy and said I was probably going to lose my A$$ but part out 7 and call it quits.

After I cooled off I searched Molon's ammo accuracy posts on AR15 and one of the most accurate factory rounds was the 68 or 69 SMK GMM so I ordered ten boxes.

Went back to the range and every single fk'n AR shot less than 1.5" five shot groups, even the 10.5" PSA, the best range trip EVER with not just one, but every one I own.

I am not ready to give up the 75 BTHP's but certainly look at other bullets and based on at least one post earlier, make make sure I am not pushing them too hard.

At this point, I refuse to shoot anything looser than a 7" twist. It's not worth the risk of getting a barrel that won't shoot anything more exotic than a Sierra 80. I mostly shoot the very twist-friendly Nosler and Sierra 80, but I also shoot a lot of Berger 80 VLDs. Usually, all of those are fine in an 8, but you have to be careful with button barrels. Sometimes their twist isn't as advertised and you get a barrel that doesn't like 80s, especially the VLD. I have a 7.7" Krieger that I'm trying to sort out, it doesn't seem to like anything over 77gr.

I plan on trying the new, heavier bullets too, like the 85 RDF. It would be stupid to run those in an 8".

I just compared the .370 BC 70 grain Accubond and the .395 75 gr Hornady BTHP the OP asked about. I gave the 70 gr 2900 fps and the 75 2800 fps out of the gate. I also piddled with some other realistic starting velocities within 50 fps of each other. There's an inconsequential difference in drop and drift at 600 yards. Now the question is which bullet would you count on to work well on a pig at all distances out to 600 yards? The match bullet or the hunting bullet? Frankly I don't like the Accubond beyond 450 or so, but I like it as well as the Match. I like the Accubond much better out to 450.

I would have been pissed too. All of my ar15's shoot better than moa consistently, for 10 shots. Except for my Noveske. But that one hangs right in there a hair over moa. Im wondering if your handloading practices are skewed? Something doesnt sound right.

The 75BTHP and the 77TMK both behave like game bullets on game. I couldn’t care less about BC, I shoot critters year round and targets almost never. I’m not certain on the TMK but the BTHP is cheaper than “game” bullets of the same weight and behaves like it was made to be shot into pigs instead of tiny groups. Just because it doesn’t have a deer on the side of the box doesn’t mean it isn’t a good hunting bullet.

Ive had good luck shooting 75 btsp in an ar varmint rifle. I run varget. I have not tried the 77, but again with accuracy and price of 75's I reallly have no need to.

I am going to agree with user error somewhere in the AR loading process, just have not pinned down what yet. Can drag the Montana 223, Fieldcraft or Chunk along and shoot sub-MOA ten shot groups at the same sitting.

Man go catch some carp or something.. lol

https://i.postimg.cc/LswCBYW4/20190406-143633.jpg

In Iraq or Afghanistan no one gives a chit about moa lol.. shoot and shoot more get that mother ph ucking 240B rocking and M2 and get the ph uck out of dodge.. both completely different circumstances we here can control our environment. Over there you can’t..

What chambers are they 5.56? Or 223 Wylde?

Pretty sure all are Wylde, 8 twist or better but I will have to check on the PSA 10.5

Dont start having flashbacks man. Call your ptsd counselor

No flashbacks, we all strive for accuracy.

Just checking. Im glad to hear it. I was hoping you hadnt joined the merry ferry band of rock shooters here.. or the "oh, thats good enough" crew.. . I have a story to tell you about how my savage predator was shooting at 400 yards the other day....

Or. twist rate?

8 twist should stabilize the bullets in the op easily. Hopefully my earlier post didnt come off as rude, but in my experience there has been no factory load that i cant beat with my handloads. Thats the nice thing about loading your own. You can tailor the load for a particular rifle. Generally its not hard to do either.

77smks are harder to stablize than 80 smks. And for that some other 80s also. FWIW which is why I asked twist.

My buddy still shoots 20 inch 9 twist with his 80s because he can't get BR rules out of his head. LOL. But even he says has to be a true twist and have to run em hard and harder most of the time.

Get a 77 or a long bullet and have a bit slower speeds mixed with unstable air and a twist thats half a turn or so off and you could be pretty iffy IMHO.

That's fair enough rost. I was seeing some of that the other day with my bolt gun. Shooting at 400 yards and the 77TMK not stabilizing. I was hoping that mo fo would shoot like a lazer beam.. Not so much. I really wish that rifle had a 1 in 8 instead of a 1 in 9!!!!! It shoots the 77TMK pretty good at 100 yards though.. I guess the only sure fire way to see what they are going to do at distance is to shoot them at distance...

I saw that it’s good enough crew if full when I was in Colorado

Sometimes good enough is good enough, unless it isn't...

Hey 79s, I loaded up some 75gr Hornady BTHP match bullets tonight. They look great. Now I hope they shoot as good as they look. I may shoot some tomorrow after my rimfire match.. I'm curious to see how they are going to do...

Same here BSA, what was your load with them?

@79S,

John, where did you end up with the RL-15 load?

Lake City brass?, what primer and OAL?

Can I guess?
24gr @ 2.24"

I haven’t messed with them since, I’m off chasing a load for my 375 H&H for my fall Kodiak bear hunt. Looks like I have it figured out, with a 300gr tsx.

Well, I loaded up some with the recipe the old guy from my club gave me. Too hot... Ended up with cratered primers. I could tell the load was too hot from the little extra recoil. He said he was running 2750 fps. I'll throw a scope back on the Noveske and work up a load and back off his recipe by 1.5 grains or maybe even a hair more... He said he's running 25.2gr or AA2520. It is possible that either his scale is reading wrong, or maybe mine? I'll run them through the chrono and that will tell me what is going on. With irons on my Noveske, I shot about a 1.75" group. Not great, but a scope and chrono will give me a better idea... I like the bullets though. I think they will work out pretty good. Didn't have to touch the seater I use for my 69gr sierra MK either. The OAL was spot on (2.250"), or close enough for me anyway... Man, the wind was ferrocious today. Blew our target stands over. Mine had rocks on it and it was still waving around in the wind.. I have no idea how I managed 100-8x average with my scoped rifle... Got lucky....

I’m off to the range I loaded up some of these 75’s we have a match coming up a reduced yardage match. Need to get a cheap load developed to use at this shoot. So far it’s looking like it will be a go, for this shoot.

Keep us posted on how they do and load data.

What’s your guess you on velocity for that load?

As of now 24.2gr rl15 out of a 18 inch barrel 2630 FPS that’s seated at 2.250.

That sounds real reasonable. J, the MK-262 MOD 1 load runs 2750 out of an 18" barrel. Do you find you get better accuracy at 2630 vs. 2750? Also, I think I was warned about the cci400 being soft and not liking a high pressure load. I noticed that today with the loads I ran through my Noveske. Primers were cratered pretty good. I only ran 10, because I knew they were over pressure, especially after I went and picked the brass up and inspected it.... Didn't want to shoot any more after that.... Do you think the CCI 450's would be better for this application?

This load was 24.2 grs RL15, cci400 I tried 3 seating depths, 2.260, 2.250 and 2.240. The avg was 2630 overall. But accuracy not their unless one is happy with 1 1/4 groups. These cci 400 were fine not crater but were flat. With that I’m going to switch either to rem 71/2 or cci 450. I have a bunch.. also continue with seating 2.240 and drop the charge to 24.0. I know two drastic changes but I noticed extreme velocity spread as well. But with all this rambling 2.240 gave the best groups today. Funny thing I shot my 77gr tmk with my Varget load and as usual moa. One last note I need to put my 10x on this upper to really get the accuracy my 4x scope at 100yds I feel I’m giving up something. Lol

Good points buddy. Great info. I think tyrone was telling us to load them a little shorter as well. I may just try a cci450 as well. I've always used BR4 and CCI400 without any issues, but these were pretty cratered. Actually sharp when I ran my finger across them. I also lost one primer out of a loose pocket piece of brass. I had it marked, like I said I do in the other thread concerning loose primer pockets, but I guess it was just too loose and like I said, overpressured loads... I'm glad I was shooting righty for my irons. Not that it did anything weird, just that I know if I had been shooting left handed I would have been more aware of the overpressure problem. You probably know what I'm talking about, since you shoot lefty.

Give the CCI #41 a thought, I believe they are a magnum primer but more important, thay have a harder cup for use in the 5.56.

I also forgot to mention I was using LC brass as well, I also checked runout. I also ran a slight crimp.

450’s and 41 are the same primer.. also people are pretty sure black hills is running rem 7 1/2 in their mk262 load as well..

Thanks vic. I'll see if I can find some. Have any of you guys tried the federal ar match primers (GM205MAR)? I saw where they were only $38.00/1000 at midsouth, where I bought the 75gr hornady match bullets. Seemed like a great deal. Of course I would buy 4 thousand or so to make the hazmat even out...

rost also made the suggestion to try the 7 1/2 primers. Right now, it's getting harder to find good primers, so if I run across any of these suggestions, I'll probably end up buying and trying them..

I have some but haven't tried them. I have 3k rem 7 1/2 and 3k cci 450. My preferred primer wsr I can't find. But I have has good luck with 7 1/2. They say one of the best primers were the wolf SR primer. But you can't even find those anymore.

L-train I could never get the new lots of RL 15 load over 2700 FPS. I always been in 2600 plus range. I had an old jug of rl15 I was getting over 2700 plus with it. This stuff was 5 plus yrs old. I just found some pictures, looks like I messed with those federal 205MAR primers and shot a .806 5 shot group with them and the 75gr hpbt. The load was 24.5grs of rl 15, bullet seated at 2.255.

Thanks J. That primer is one you don't hear about here for some reason???? I didn't even know it existed, until the other day my boss was looking for some match primers for one of his friends and he wanted to know about the federal AR match primers. I thought $38.00 was a damn good deal if they were any good. Around here, the damn match primers are like $56.00, if you can find them...

They'll run anywhere from about 2650 to 2750fps out of a 20" barrel with 24gr, depending upon your barrel & chamber. 75s and 77s both seem to shoot better closer to 2650fps. Just about all the quoted RE15 loads you'll see are between 23.5 and 24.5gr. Pretty much the same with Varget.

I do need to get a 20 inch barrel one of these days..

That big primer sale sportsman's had, I paid $27 bucks for the ones I got. But I buy SR primers when I see them, because i remember the hard times of 2012-2014.

You wont find br4"s for that price. You guys are going to get a kick out of the speeds I was getting with that 2520 powder. I'm just now coming back home from the range. But I'll post those results

All primers were marked down I bought 1k 210 for $23, 1K WLR for $22 and 1K rem 9 1/2 mag for $23 and those fed 205 for $27. I was missed out on the cci 450’s cci br and Winchester SR primers. CCI BR were going for 27-28 bucks. I’m out doing yard work, I want to head to the range. Maybe Tuesday or weds..

I understand that the #41 has a slightly shorter anvil to make it less sensitive, along with the cup thickness. I may be wrong but that is my understanding.

Damn buddy, that was a hell of a sale. I wish I would have known about it!!!!!!

Here's a little info I can add on the 75gr Hornady BTHP match bullets and load. I was using AA2520 powder today and wanted to check speeds with my chrono. The last charge weight I stopped after 3 shots. I could tell pressure was peaking. That charge weight was 24.3 grains of AA2520. I'm going to show pics, as "pics are worth a 1000 words"...


I wrote down this info on the backside of a target I had from yesterdays rimfire shoot, so don't mind the bullet holes in it...

These loads were loaded to 2.240" OAL. Top speed was this reading on the chrono:


Don't mind the very old chrono. It still works great. That's a velocity of 2,872 fps. Smoking along. We don't even want to shoot anymore of those loads my buddy from the club told me about. Generally I work up a load, and that is the reason. His scale is reading differently than mine. I'm also running a 20" barrel on my Noveske, vs. the 18" SPR he has...

https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

I used my hornady manual for 556 loads. My loads are a little faster than what you are running (@ "2630 fps"). Ill go back out next weekend and try a slower load for better accuracy. It was easy shooting moa 5 shot groups today with my least accurate ar. 10 shots opened the groups up though.

I get 2630 with RL15 other powders like AR comp, varget I get faster speeds. I’m at the range as we speak will report back what I got.

Awesome buddy. You know ill go back to AR Comp to get the best accuracy, if AA2520 doesnt work out.. 2520 runs them fast though. For someone looking for 1 1/4 moa and a fast load, that might just be the ticket.. hopefully you dont have the wind like i did earlier. Im trying to best rosts iron sight score in the black rifle challenge, but thats not going to happen with these gorge winds. When it calms down, i may have a chance.

Just thinking of all the issues we had with 2520 so many years ago makes me kind of queasy that folks still use it. LOL. But I don't get over things very quickly...

Ill likely burn up what i have and then go back to AR Comp. Im just experimenting with it right now. Check out that black rifle challenge. Im not too far off your irons score buddy.. im thinking if i cant beat your score with my crappy shooting noveske, ill buy another set of those sights and put them on my better shooting 6WOA.

2520 load 24.0gr cci 450 75gr hornady seated at 2.245
Velocity 2585
Varget load 23.7gr cci 450 75gr hornady seated at 2.245
Velocity 2612

The AR comp load of 22.5gr produce a 1.56 group velocity avg 2690
The RL15 with 24.0 Gr produce a 1.68 group velocity avg 2557




I’m dropped couple shots to open those groups up. I forgot my regular glasses. I also mounted a nib 10x swfa to shoot these groups. I’m probably going to run with that 2520 load for these reduced yardage matches. Varget so hard to find, I need to save what I have.

Last yr I played with this load but never bothered with it. BSA asked about fed 205 MAR primers. I found my notes and loaded up ten see how they do. Initial testing last yr 5 shot group shot .806. Anyhow looks like i pulled one high and screwed up the group.
24.5gr RL15, 205MAR primer, 75gr hornady, L-C brass, seated 2.255 OAL avg velocity 2634

Looking good j. Cool you had some 2520 laying around. Im surprised its going so slow, as compared to my chrono findings today. Looks like its printing pretty good though. You liking that 10x scope better than the 4x? Looks like your groups are a little tighter and on the orange. Should score well at the reduced yardage competition.

I like it because I can see a lot better at 100yds lol. I use the 4x for my service rifle setup. You should see what 600yds looks like at 4x.. I have 3 of these 10x I have one on my other rifle that’s set up for AR tactical. 600yds through a 10x ain’t so bad.. you do have a 20 inch barrel compared to my 18. I can’t believe velocity loss is so extreme in these AR. Looks like what 150 FPS an inch?

Could very well be a different lot too. The old guy was telling me today that you have to watch out for different lots and its bad because it was manufactured in different facilities. Israel, chech republic, Belgium and the US. So different velocities are to be expected. The bottles he gave me look old. I didnt check to see where it was made.

I think muledeer talks about that, one of the problems with accurate powder.

Also my target why the first two groups are off I was still sighting it in. I didn’t want to screw up a potential 10 shot group record. So i waited until i was done and make adjustments 😁

Yeah, i just checked mine. It was made in Israel

J. No biggie man. I know you know how to hit the x-ring. You wouldnt be shooting any kind of competition if you didnt. Some guys dont get it. You arent one of them. You shoot long distance of any kind and even 1 or 2" high and left or right at 100 makes a big fuggin difference way out there. Im always shooting for score, thats why most of the targets i post, the bullet holes are in the "orange". As i call it. If you notice, a lot of the 1/2 moa 3 shot key board commandos will post their 3 [bleep] groups way out in left field. Those guys will get lucky and kill a deer or gut shot one and think of themselves as mighty hunters. Others will strategically place 1 shot in the heart and think nothing of it..

Mine made in Belgium

That is probably the difference right there... One of the small gunshops across the river had 40 pounds of what looks like the older kegs of it, but if guys like rost and tyrone say there were issues with it, I may just burn up this 2 pounds i have and move back over to AR Comp. That powder seems to be very forgiving. It doesn't put out the fastest speeds, but it burns clean, meters nice and accuracy has been very good in everything from 223 ar's and bolt guns to my 308 AR10.

You can't believe that, you should have seen how my AR's spanked my 22" 223 predator rifle when it came to velocities... They downright just spanked that bolt gun. It couldn't keep up, even though it has a barrel that is 2" longer..

I found ARcomp to give very good speeds along with Varget.. more i think about it I’m going to stick with rl15 for my reduced yardage load. 2520 is to hit or miss from lot to lot.

Now that you mentioned earlier about two different lots of 2520 I can see why the difference .. but I know guys with 20 inch barrels get almost 100 FPS better than me, so 50 FPS per inch isn’t to bad. Reason I push my stuff hard or on the edge I want to stretch this 223 Wylde out to 1k. In order for me to do that I have to get velocity over 2650 so that bullet stays transonic out to 1k yds. Right now we have a match scheduled at the only 1000yd range with pop up targets in Alaska this coming summer.

And now you guys know why nobody competes with 2520.
I've only seen one lot# of AR Comp. Been using it for ~5 years. Made about 4 separate purchases over those years.

Makes sense about 2520. No one wants to dink around with load development everytime they get a new can of powder. Especially if you rely on it for competition.

I think the other big reason is that it's really temp sensitive. Adjusting for a given lot is easy enough, especially if you've bought a large quantity of it, but accounting for the temp changes is a different thing.

I do suggest though, BSA, to be careful about putting much stock in primer appearance or recoil to judge pressures; neither are very reliable indicators. If you're also using milder RL15 loads, your rifle is probably overgassed with 2520 before it hits max pressure, and that's what you're experiencing. Restricting the gas down a little more and using CCI 450 or #41 primers can make the same load seem pretty normal again, and higher velocities are to be expected with the right ball powders.

I say bullscheit yondering. You are wrong buddy. Look at book max speeds. I'm over that with the loads that I said were too hot. I'm not new to the reloading game buddy. If you sit back a bit and watch, you may learn something..

Here is a little more to add to the op from loads I fired off today:







To everyone else interested, the AA2520 powder is working well enough as far as getting higher velocities than AR Comp with the 75gr Hornady BTHP match bullet. The Hornady load manual also verify's that. In my notes on one of the targets, I list Hornady's max velocity and max load from their service rifle load data. I could see and feel pressure signs with these loads when they were over book max velocity with AR Comp. 2600 fps is all I'd want to push my rifle with this powder, based on feedback from said rifle and load... I also know for a fact that I can push this bullet to well over 2800 fps with AA 2520, but I personally would not load past 24 grains with this powder. At that charge weight my average velocity was 2,777 fps. Again, the Hornady load manual states that with AA2520, the max velocity would be right at 2800 fps with a charge weight of 24.6 grains. Since my Noveske has a 556 chamber, I used the 556 load data in the tenth edition Hornady load manual. For my rifle, I loaded up to 24.3 grains and found the load to be too hot. I only fired off 3 rounds #1 at 2,841 fps, #2 @ 2,816, and #3 @ 2,822 fps. This is not an "overgassed" issue, this is a too hot of a load issue, which is also stated in the latest Hornady load manual... Their test barrel must be very similar to mine, a 20" 1 in 8 vs. theirs which is a 20" 1 in 7 twist.

You forgot to mention that 2520 was bought when bill clinton was still President 😁

Ha ha.. You are probably right.. Its pretty stiff... I mean the powder is... It flings them a little faster than your powder does, doesn't it buddy??? I forgot what you said you are running (FPS wise) your 75's for your accuracy load. How did you do at your shoot too? You want to borrow my Noveske?

That lot of 2520 you have, is a lot faster than what I have. Shoot isn’t until next week. It’s reduced yardage match so been messing around with a cheap but accurate load for 100yds. Using, yep 55gr fmj. I’m
Using 3031, best I got 1.5 moa I had a couple flyers but 7 of them in group you can cover with a quarter. I hate random flyers is it me? Who knows. So I have a backup using h4895 with the relatively cheap 73gr ELD-M. Anyhow, With my lot of 2520 my accuracy load as 24.0gr with a cci 450 primer. My load is only .3 tenths of grain higher than western powders minimum of 23.7. Also I bought some 69gr smk and tried them with AR comp and got same results as you. You are thinking a lot of bullets to be messing with lol, again was just trying to find a decent 100yd reduced match load. Don’t want to waste my 77tmk or 80.5 Berger’s at 100yds. But that 2520 load with 75 hornady pretty good and i have a pile of them as well.

Buddy, i think tyrone is right. Those 69gr sierras are hard to beat. They are very consistent, with minimal flyers. I shot a 1.167moa avg yesterday with the sierras and an avg score of 100-8x.

79s, for 100 yd reduced course you should try the sierra 52 hollow points.

I know where more of those 69 smk are. I need to go get them.. I tried the same 68gr hornady and that bullet sucks..

I was looking at that bullet as well. What powder you recommend?

Don't be too fast to give up on the 68 Hornady:

You may find they shoot more accurately, if you don't push them as hard. For a 100 yard match, you don't have to push them at mach2...

Mike is also right, those 52 grainers are good, if you can get them to shoot good in your rifle. A lot of guys swear by them, but I gave up on them because I got better accuracy from the 53gr Hornady v-max. The hornady bullets are less money too...




I have even tried the 52gr Hornady match bullet, but for some reason the v-max beats it in the accuracy dept as well... J, all you got to do is put them in the x ring (see pic above)...^^^ Quit trying to make it so damn difficult... Ha..

Pretty sure I used H335 or 748. It was like 25 years ago.
Didn't do anything but play around with it a little as we always shot full course. I'd check Sierras manual and see what they list as the most accurate load.

In their latest manual they list N133 powder for their accuracy load. I also used a lot of H335 and blc2 back in the day. But now days, id be tempted to try a newer powder like benchmark, TAC, or even CFE223, and of course, AR Comp.

Well I found some 55 Sierra’s, not 52 smk. I’m going to try ARcomp with them.. I never had much luck with cfe or tac.. I heard good and bad about benchmark. I need to find more Varget, Varget is hands down the most accurate powder I used. Followed by RL15, AR comp is phenomenal with 77tmk. I have also had good luck with H4895..

All good powders buddy. You just got to find the combo that gives you the most consistent results with your rifle. Your method is probably different than mine, because I use range pickup brass and don't weigh each individual charge. I hate messing with the tiny 223 and 308, so I'll drop powder from my uni-flo and go with it. Loading around 300 rounds per hour. I shoot a lot, so this works out well enough for me and I have no problems getting sub moa loads in all of my AR15's... They have all been entered in the black rifle challenge here to prove it too... Like I said before, the only one that won't consistently shoot sub moa is my Noveske, but I'm going to try to work on changing that. I would like to shoot a 1 moa avg with irons with that rifle, but that could get challenging and I may need to change my lazy process or step it up a bit...

I do use LC for the majority of my loading, at one time I weighed it. That was a rabbit hole I should of never went down. I stopped, I was told to look at Remington brass because it was the most consistent and I found it is. So I use R-P with my 80.5 Berger 600yd load. I never entered that load in the moa challenge reason that bullet bullet hard to come by i have a good stash of them and Varget is hard to find as well.. But i have found LC to be consistent, I don’t mess with F-C brass. I have 5- 5 gallon buckets filled with brass.. so if you ever need anymore let know lol

55 Sierra SP's? If so try about 25.5 gr of TAC (if you still have any). Might not work in your rifles but does in 2 of mine.

55gr hpbt.. I might just run with these 69’s they are priced to bad.. I better have it sorted out by next Saturday lol..

Of course <face palm>, how foolish of me.

Well good luck with it.

Sounds like 79s better get his schidt together by next weekend.

My wife has me playing farmer bob finally got seed planted in the garden.. i will probably be using 73gr eld-m with 23.5gr h4895, rem 7 1/2 primers. Seated at can’t remember lol.. Just playing around with other bullets see what I could come up with.

This is a 100 yd reduces high power match, when you get bored give it a go. Standing slow fire you cannot use a sling.. rapid fire you use sling, 99% time we shoot in the sitting position. prone you use sling.. all the targets to use are listed as well..

2 sighting shots and 10 shots for record, standing, slow fire, 100 yards, SR-1 target. 10 minutes
2 sighting shots and 10 shots for record, sitting or kneeling, rapid fire, 100 yards, SR-1 target. 60 seconds, magazine change first mag has 2rds, second mag has 8 rds.
2 sighting shots and 10 shots for record, prone, rapid fire, SR-21 target. 70 seconds, magazine change first mag has 2rds, second mag has 8 rds.
2 sighting shots and 20 shots for record, prone, slow fire, MR-31 target. 20 minutes

Sounds like fun buddy. I like shooting offhand, generally slinged up though. Are you running your 4.5x scope? That 73gr eld match is a great bullet. One of my favorites. I looked at my .224 bullet supply today and saw i have 200 73gr eldm pills. They fly straight for sure. I gave up on the 69gr SMK after first trying the 73gr hornady. Now ive made full circle, since ive been shooting my Noveske more. When i want to switch things up a bit, i do the carl ross positional shoot for practice. You shoot timed targets in offhand, sitting, off sticks and off a pack. More like hunting scenerios. When we have ar shoots at my club, we shoot more your style. Offhand, sitting and prone. What some guys dont realize is a lot of us that shoot off the bench and post results in the black rifle and moa all day long challenge here is that we dont just shoot off the bench. They make fun of us "x shooters", but for some reason dont get the importance of being able to strategically place the bullet where we want it to go each and every time. It should be that way, regardless of the quarry. Hit what you are aiming at. That is the important thing to think about.

I changed my reply, because I was going to the range today but spent all day out in the wife garden planting potatoes seed, and green beans. So I worked on a load last week with the 73gr eld-m. Weds will try to hit the range to verify the load. Yes will be using 1-4 swfa scope. So far I been pretty happy with it.

You know if that load doesn't work out, you can always use AR Comp. A load that shoots very accurately is 20.5gr, but is not a screamer. Almost guaranteed to shoot very well in your rifle...At 100 yards, it is very consistent. Sub moa in my rifles... and when I say sub moa, I'm talking 10 shot groups..

I shot that load last week and shot great. Just want verify it, will do it again. For these shoots I don’t need anything fast lol..

Yep, at 100 yards, accuracy trumps velocity..

WOW, BS Kchunter gasbaging another thread!!

That's not exactly a mild load......................at least IME, but with other similar bullets, not the 73 ELD.

MM

Anything less than 2700 is mild lol.. I’m going to chrono that load today or tomorrow.i hope it’s over 2650 I really want to try it out to 600yds.

I use H4895 in my bolt guns but not in an AR; IMO, the recoil impulse is too quick with sharp recoil; too many better choices for an AR.

I don't know what the bearing surface on the ELD bullet is, & I'm sure it's different than a 77 SMK, but with the SMK, 22.5 is about max, 23 is too much for sure & I'm not squeamish about pressure.

And my bolt gun loads with that combo is 21.8 gr.

YMMV, of course, & there's always powder lot variance...........& you're shooting an ELD bullet, so post up the pics of your brass after you shoot it.

MM

23.3gr h4895 is max fo 223 service rifle data in hornady 10th edition. So 23.5 in a 223 Wylde chamber is fine. Hornady doesn’t have load data for the 73gr bullet and up for standard 223... Today I was getting 2676 FPS with my load of 23.5gr H4895. According Hodgdon their max load with H4895 and a 77 Sierra OTM is 22.6..

Yeah, at that velocity, pressure should be OK; thanks for the info.

MM

Unfortunately I tossed my brass i used i had it marked because primer pockets were loose. After this shoot on Saturday will snap pictures of the brass.

Hey J, what kind of accuracy are you getting with the load you plan on using Saturday?

Well, that's not a good sign unless they had several warm loadings on them? How many did they have?

Like I said, unless I just had lots of 4895 that I needed to use, it not high of my list of AR powders. I would never go buy that particular powder with the sole intent of loading AR's.

MM

cool your jets, I used this brass 5-6 times with other loads AR-comp, RL15, Varget, leverevolution you get the idea.. hell I used some once fired Winchester brass the other day, that had loose primer pockets.. I like H4895, guys out there love tac, cfe 223 I think it’s absolutely horrible.. AR-comp with this 73gr bullet on the high side of charge doesn’t get near the accuracy as h4895.

I’m done with this thread..

You get your back up to easily whenever someone says something not to your thinking....................when it come to reloading (most anything) there's almost always more than one good solution, & various people have various perspectives.

There's no doubt that H4895 can be accurate; what I mean when I say I really don't like it in an AR is because of the sharp recoil impulse; I use it & like it in a bolt gun.

Rock On.

MM

This has actually been an informative thread. Thanks to guys like you and mm and others for sure. It made me go out and buy 1000 hornady bthp match bullets and do a little testing of my own. Hopefully others found it to be informative as well..

Bringing this one back to the top. A lot of good conversation here. Rost, im going to try your 24gr load, but ill work up to it. 24.1gr is max in the hornady book.

Was at the range yesterday working out some guns & ammo, shot 77g SMK's in factory IMI Razorcore, 77 gr SMK's, Nosler 77 gr CC, & Hornady 75 HTBP, all with 22.8 gr AR Comp.

Did not chrono, but from the past, the SMK & Nolser both go around 2727'ish with that load from an 18" barrel.

All 4 loads shot to essentially same POI at 100 yards with a composite 4 shot group of of the dirrent loads of about an inch.

That is with a WOA, 1-8 barrel...................that's the kind of barrel I like as I absolutely hate finicky barrels that will only like a particular bullet, with a particular powder, with a particular primer on any given day. Those kind of guns & barrels go down the road real quick like for me.

FWIW

MM

You're making me jealous with that AR Comp statement. I was bragging about finding 4 lbs of it at 1 store. That was 2 months ago, now its gone!!! I cant find it anywhere around here. RL 15 is plentiful Here. Going to the range right now im planning on shooting 10 shot groups for load development. I find all of my ars shoot sub moa 4 shot groups. Even my most finicky ar10 308. I just dropped the rl15 loads, as im not into weighing every charge on a 223. We'll see how it goes. Mm, have you shot many 77TMK's?

Some, not a lot, think I got a box of 250 a while back............not much different than SMK's, just more $$$ & to fit a magazine, you are right at the edge of the ogive when they are seated.

Might be a tad better just for hunting, pigs or whatever, but for anything else, the gain isn't worth the $$$ to me for ranges <600 yds or so..................I shoot more Hornadys & Noslers than Sierra's, mainly just because the differences are not huge in performance & they are cheaper. Prolly whatever is available right now though, though I have a good stock on hand right now.

SMK's seem to have a small edge in consistent accuracy, same for Bergers but also more $$$.

MM

Can you see any difference on paper between weighed & dumped charges of RE-15?

I shot some 73 ELD's the other day over the chrono with a charge of 24.5 grs of TAC and got decent accuracy and 2700 fps in my 16" barrel. It got my attention as there were no pressure signs at all so I might pursue it further...

77's of all flavors are disappointing on 600 yard steel at 2625 fps in my 16" barrels. Can't hear the whack.

I love the 73gr eld match bullet. I found they were quite a bit cheaper than the old reliable 69gr smk. I'll keep buying those sierra's though, as all of my ar's love them. Even my finicky bastid Noveske... I stopped using the 73 ELD for a while, doe to poor penetration tests, but hell if a 73gr bullet doesn't do a good enough job, I don't know what will... They are extremely accurate in my rifles. My new Colt sporter target model loves them, even more so than the 69gr SMK, so I better not give up on that bullet. Recently I bought about 600 of the 73's and another 1000 69gr SMK and still have about 400 of the 1,000 75gr Hornady btsp match bullets left. Sometimes I wonder IF I'll find a stellar load with the 75gr hornady. I'm about ready to pull my damn hair out with that bullet. Good thing I got a smoking hot deal on them!!!!

Yeah, in my 9.3x62mm I did: