Doc: "Bullet mass and momentum can make a difference when you're shooting heavy plates or bowling pins, but I would strongly disagree that they make a difference when shooting lighter reactive targets like plate racks or poppers."
I don't know what poppers you shoot at, but the pepper-poppers I used to shoot wouldn't go down with marginal hits close to the pivot point using the 9mm, but would almost universally go down with the .45 and 230 grain ball. Still, the term "heavy" is telling. If it makes a difference on a "heavy" target, it should provide evidence that there is an element of superiority over a broad spectrum of potential uses.
"As for "lethality", let's be clear: human beings are NOT "reactive targets". They are living, moving, fighting beings whose physiological and psychological and spiritual makeup combines to make something much more complex than the most complex mechanical or reactive range target system."
Can't disagree with that. Wouldn't try to, but as you well know and as I tried to explain to Bluedreaux, albeit clumsily, humans are 3 dimensional targets. You see one dimension, but the target should be considered 3 dimensional. One has to imagine the intended target inside the external surface. We train to shoot center mass on flat targets always facing us perpendicularly, and this is a disservice to our trainees. Depending on what degree of attitude the target is facing us, will present different challenges, not all of which are center mass. Penetration becomes key, over expansion and the theoretical discussion of hydro-dynamics on internal organs.
"I take your "diverse set of scenarios and parameters" statement to mean that you think that the variables in street shootings are so many and so uncontrollable that it is impossible to draw any valid predictions from any sort of study. This is nonsense. The quantity of research on handgun ammunition performance done since the 1986 Miami FBI gunfight is staggering in its volume and scope, and it has resulted in phenomenal performance improvements in not just service caliber ammunition, but all ammunition."
Doc, please use the tern "nonsense" carefully. IF you have been keeping up with the times, you will discover the FBI has almost reversed itself in recent months. It does make one wonder. One of the main things the FBI did discover - and this pertains to all shootouts, regardless the caliber of the weapon being used, is that marginal performance "tactically", cannot be made up for with superior performance "ballistically." But that given all scenarios, we carry one gun. Better it be the one that can deliver mass, deeply into a 3 dimensional being.
"The street shootings data accumulated over the past 25+ years by LE agencies and consortiums in America is pretty clear: there is no appreciable performance difference between 9mm and 45 ACP when using modern JHP ammunition that meets the FBI criteria established in 1987."
Absolutely! And this is largely because there is little difference in the targets, vs the differences in the weaponry. The constant, in all these studies are the intended targets, and the unpredictability of their physical position and attitude at the moment of combat. The 9mm and .40 offer only one advantage over their larger sister, and that is capacity. For some, that is comforting and I'd never try to dissuade them. But the performance of the .45 was the "benchmark" all the other entries were trying to live up to in their quest.
Best to you.
Dan
