Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Old Pete during Pickets Charge

Pretty good 4 minute video discussing Longstreets actions and frame of mind during the climax of Gettysburg.
Pete has long been blamed for Gettysburg, mainly by other officers who were guilty of dropping the ball themselves, and history writers with axes to grind.
Many, including Virginia natives wrongly accused Pete of dragging his feet in a misguided defense of the memory of Robert E Lee.

Since I read a lot of history, I have come to admire Pete. Longstreet damn near defeated elements of 3 Union Army Corps with 2 divisions on July 2nd.
Getting warmer finally. Me and Jake are fixing to make a day trip the end of this month. He’s never visited without the leaves and vegetation, which often block the true lay of the ground.
I’m rereading “Stars In Their Courses” in preparation for some exploration myself.
These discussions ahead of time are of interest for others planning a visit. Good preparation always makes a trip more enjoyable and educational.
Reon

Some piss poor leadership that day AP Hill is to blame more than Pete

I will be in Gettysburg on Thursday of this week, the 21st. I will drive thru the park just to recollect past visits.

He was a great tactician and a credit to the prosecution of the war in my opinion. His men liked him and he took care of them. He was a masterful defensive tactician and warned Lee about Gettysburg. He was and remains greatly vilified for joining the Republican party after the war. He had the audacity to criticize Lee for his execution of Gettysburg. That has earned him the hate of the 'solid south'. I always have thought he was a great credit to the southern effort however unjust it was. He fought with great skill and dedication.

Lee ignored his defensive genius, his left hand, telling him the Union position could not be broken. Result was Lee lost about 60% of the effectiveness of his army. Plus Longstreet effectively quit Lee's command and went to the West Within 12 months Lee lost his offensive and defensive experts. Lee's genius was making decisions, without options that were effective......

The pipe creek line would’ve been a interesting battle

I have read a great deal about “Old Pete”. Glenn Tucker and several others have examined him pretty thoroughly, I have yet to read anything negative, unless the author was trying to prove Lee a master tactician. Certainly nothing in the last 40 years.
Several have offered substantial rewards for any criticism prior to Lee’s death and Pete’s support of the Republican part in 1870. No one has collected a dime.
Lee’s Tarnished Lieutenant
Pete was slandered y Jube Early and William Pendleton, both of whom had some skeletons to bury regarding Gettysburg. After 10 years of criticism, Pete replied with his Autobiography. “From what Manasses to Appomattox”. Some of which is not accurate due to the time of its writing. ( more than 15 years had passed) In it he was defensive of himself and did criticize Marse Robert some. This only vilified him further in the minds of southern veterans.
Many were promoting the myth of “The Lost Cause” which defended southern ideals in general and Lee in particular. They lost the war due to greatly unequal resources, in spite of Lees expert leadership.this only gathered steam, and influenced most historians up through the centennial of the war.
Finally the record began to straighten itself out. Shaara’s book “Killer Angels” has given Pete a more positive spin , and most people are starting to reevaluate his role in Gettysburg and the war.m
I do enjoy these discussions. Often I’m informed of things I hadn’t known from others. I figured with folks thinking about a visit, this would be a helpful and informative conversation.
Reon

Put a dime on the va monument for me when you go 😉

I believe you owe 20 cents. 2 ancestors in Picket’s Division if I remember correctly? 😀
A dime if you served in unit with the person.

Ya I’ll pay you back one day🤣👍

From what I gather Pettigrew and Trimble were aiming for a different “copps of trees” than Pickett that’s why Pickett kept veering left.The artillery was fuqkd for the same reasons not that it would’ve mattered with our schit fuses 😂

Your credit is good with me, at least for 20 cents!😀
Sorta puzzled by another copse of trees though. Maybe Ziegler’s Grove around the Brian House which is around 200 or 250’yards from the copse that marks the “High Water Mark” of the assault.
Wasn’t Pattons grandad one of Trimbles brigade commanders? I believe he was killed at Zieglers Grove.

I was a college student in Milledgeville Georgia in 1975. I lived in an off-campus apartment. My neighbor was a single, 70 year old granny. Now, in 1863 Milledgeville was the capitol of Georgia, so the history goes way back.

One afternoon she flagged me down, a heavy package had been delivered to her apartment and she wanted me to help her, to carry the package into her apartment. On the wall was a beautiful framed portrait, a painting of General Longstreet. I said to her "Isn't that General Longstreet?"

She said "Yes, he was my grandfather. I still think we would have won the war if he had come up earlier at Gettysburg." She was talking about the battle as though it had happened last week.

William Faulkner: "In the South, the past is never dead. It's not even past."

Yeah zieglers grove the mix up b/t AP Hill and Longstreet.AP was layed up with the clap or some kinda schit he caught off some gal in Richmond 😄🤣 things got construed.Pettigrew and Trimble were several hundred yards left of Pickett at the start we had to keep shifting exposing our flank 👍

If Pickett’s division woulda been there day 2 I strongly believe the tide would’ve turned 👍

Everything has the air of inevitability with hindsight, but the truth is the South had at least half a dozen good chances to win the war before Gettysburg and several after. A few different decisions, a few troop movements few minutes earlier or a few minutes later, a lost order, a misunderstood order, a few seconds longer to make sure of an identity, and so on, and things would have been entirely different.

We gave them yankys hell JimBob 🤣

Another fuqk up on AP Hill watch the boys comin out the woods lining up for Pickett’s charge on the movie and you here a yell “Archers brigade forward” read up on Archers brigade day 1 it ain’t pretty

It was Patton's uncle. I believe he was killed at the angle in Picketts charge. Patton's grandfather was a Confederate general. I'm not sure but I think he was in the 22nd Virginia

I've read, the generals had played poker with one another, and knew how they thought.

Even a Yankee like me is familiar with Faulkner’s quote. Believe me, I have stood at the Virginia Monument, looked across that field to Cemetery Ridge and thought “This is crazy. Marse Robert, I ain’t goin”.
Faulkner on Pickets Charge
To think about the incredible courage of these men is both inspiring and a mystery. For cause and comrade doesn’t quite cover it.
In answer to Pete’s granddaughter I can only answer Early Pendleton and the myth of the lost cause.
Sort of a nineteenth century witch-hunt.
Lee was a brilliant commander, it had to have been Longstreet’s betrayal!
Growing up, I remember distinctly going to Gettysburg with my Dad. It inspired in me a love of American History, and a particular interest in Gettysburg and the Civil War.
Maybe it was Shaara’s book. I don’t think so though. But something made me look at Longstreet closer, and I quickly became an admirer.
I had two postcard photos above my bed. Old Pete on one side and WS Hancock (Union 2nd Corps commander) on the other. Two men I have admired from a pup!😀
When I walk those fields, I can only describe what happens to me as surreal. As Foote said, “The ground talks to you”!
Both my spouses told me on separate visits , “maybe you died there”.
I won’t say. It does explain what that place does to me.
I’ve been there dozens of times. It’s 90 miles away. But each time I leave for home, I feel like I’m leaving some part of me behind.
Reon

I grew up in Greenville, Mississippi and at the time it had more published authors than other any town its size in the USA. Shelby Foote grew up on a small plantation south of Greenville and the area is still called Foote and has a green state highway marker. I worker in a grocery during HS and on occasion see him there. Faulkner’s literary agent lived in Greenville and they would be seen there. We had a wonderful local book store - McCormicks and they have memorabilia and book signing with various authors- not Shelby tho, he didn’t do book signings. I personally called him in Memphis and he answered the phone himself and told me this. We had a most pleasant conversation about growing up in Greenville ( the nearest town to Foote). He was a true southern gentleman with a beautiful southern drawl. My mother and I have been told that we all sound like that. I cherish my heritage, public education and the times that I grew up in. I too have been to places where people have died and “the ground talks to you” at least it does to me. I feel a part of it like I was a part of it. I am convinced that our soul is a “spirit” being and have seen this spark of life depart from the human body. I have had 2 out of body experiences and known what I have seen and felt. My mother and wife have intuition and know when something is wrong with family tho separated by time and distance. Some folks are just more attuned to their surroundings, a gift? or
a curse. Many vets tell me you develop this skill in combat. Read Gavin
DeBecker -The Gift of Fear and his credentials. Gives you pause to think.

Like Reon I think I died in Gettysburg in a former life dreamed of the drums and cannon fire made it past the emmitsburg rd but never reached the angle but part of me is there 👍👍

I’m far from saying I had a previous life as a confederate gone to battle. But I have had feelings unique to the surroundings. We were at a reenactment at the site of the Tannehill weapons works in McCalla, AL at Tannehill State Park. It was of course destroyed by Union war criminals toward the end of hostilities. Hearing the gunfire as the exercise started, seeing the troops running to position, watching when everything in my soul was telling me to fight. A quite gut wrenching experience where slipping into that other reality would have been much preferable to observing from distance. I don’t know, maybe it’s something about a belief system crossing time. Maybe the honor and patriotism of countrymen past somehow infects those who come after.

Whatever is there is palpable and I honestly can do without any more re-enactments. It just didn’t feel like a game at all.

After seeing Shelby on that Ken Burns video, I thought “there’s a man I’d love to share a pot of coffee and and afternoon with”! Especially after I read his books, which by now I have read 5 or 6 times!
And Gettysburg and Antietam can become very real to me, even when I am alone. Those places, if you know the history can almost come alive. Sometimes it’s surreal. I can stand there and hear the guns, close my eyes and see the battle. It just does something to a person.
I become very passionate about it, and I guess it shows through.
I really don’t need a guide, but I do enjoy Ranger presentations, and talking to them about it. I always plan ahead when I’m going, and check the NPS website so I can take part in battle walks and such.
Before Covid they developed a program called (IIRC) “Living History” they do a presentation on parts of the battle, they can personally “introduce” you to someone who actually fought there, even some of the enlisted men. I always is it the Visitors Center to check the schedules for them.
But since they have become partners with a for profit organization called (I think) The Gettysburg Foundation it’s as much a tourist trap as a museum.
I haven’t been to Antietam since they opened a new one. I hope they haven’t done like Gettysburg has.
A partnership with a for profit group jade destroyed a place that I always loved to visit. My time is always spent walking the fields.
Reon

There is no one else to blame for the defeat than Lee himself. He refused Longstreet to attack early and take the Round Tops, his artillery barrage to soften the Union lines fell way long behind the front, the terrain alone from the starting point to the infamous Copse of Trees, with it rolling hills and fences was suicidal.

Pete shoulda took hoods advice

Longstreet,

Never received the recognition , that was worthy of his efforts, for many years.

Like many here I saw ...a different side of him.

I aways saw that he was a better tactician, planner than Lee , who believed in "Gods Will" for many of his decisions, which became desperation.

I find that Longstreet did not have a statue until the 1990's.

I’m rereading Stars In Their Courses again. That’s Shelby Footes study of the Gettysburg campaign because I think sooner or later this freaking cold weather is gonna finally change, and I’m gonna head down there.
One thing that always strikes me is the fact that up until the end of June, Lee still believed that the Army the Potomac was still in Virginia.
He had no clue where Stuart was at, and he assumed that since he hadn’t heard anything different, that was the situation.
He finally found out the truth from Harrison, Pete’s privately hired (and paid) scout.
His forces were scattered from South Mountain to York PA, and with this new knowledge he was trying to regroup his scattered army. Gettysburg was a handy place to do that.
Baldy Ewells men thought they were fighting PA Militia, not the AOTP. Only after they saw the black hats of The Iron Brigade did they know Union troops were near.
On 30 June, Stuart was 70 miles away, cut off by the Union army!😳
Long time ago I read a biography of Stuart, written in the late 1800s. Its author (another Virginian) suggested Longstreet should have been shot for treason for what happened those first days in July!😩
Such was the mindset of the majority of southerners at that time!
The sainted Marse Robert would never fight a battle like he did, literally blindfolded! Someone must have betrayed him! Couldn’t have been anyone from VA, but Pete was a Georgian, a Republican and Lee was gone.😟 Too late to tell anyone different!
I cringe every time I hear a remark like “if only Stonewall had been there!”
Anyone who says that displays their ignorance to the true situation faced by Lee in this fight.
I hold Stuart more responsible for the loss at Gettysburg more than anyone except Lee himself, and there were many confederate commanders who dropped the ball in Pennsylvania! Pete wasn’t one of them,
Reon

I’ve been to Gettysburg a few times. Very emotional place. Thinking about the bravery and carnage that took place there.

Ron

Good point on Stuart 👍

Standing on the round top looking down.
It's hard to believe anyone would want to assault that position.
John Buford had an eye for ground.
dave

It is my understanding that Longstreet delayed the Confederate attack on Day 2 until his favorite Alabama (??) shock troops (under Oates ??) could arrive on the scene. Famously not wanting to go into action “with one boot off”. Prob’ly he didn’t realize at the time that these troops were force-marching down the Chambersburg Pike from twenty five miles out.

During the wait Hood begged Longstreet for permission to attack the large Union artillery/supply wagon park that lay in back of the Round Tops. In a fit of pique after having had his opinions stymied by Lee, Longstreet didn’t support Hood’s earnest suggestion.

Meanwhile that Alabama unit didn’t arrive on the field until late-afternoon, and in their exhausted state were thrown against Little Round Top at 4pm without even an opportunity refill their empty canteens. Even so, it was a nick of time thing for the Union, them having manned Little Round Top just minutes earlier.

Given that very late start, it was the evening darkness that closed the Confederate assault on Cemetery Ridge on Day 2.

Afterwards Longstreet is transferred to the Western Theater where just coincidentally he arrives at the exact time and place to give the Confederates their victory at Chickamagua. Later on though, perhaps in another fit of pique against Braxton Bragg, he was strangely inactive at his position on Lookout Mountain (??) and misses the opportunity to effectively attack Rosecran’s already troubled and exposed supply line into Chattanooga.

After that he launched that Quixotic and failed attempt to take Knoxville.

Don’t get me wrong, if I had to serve under any Confederate General, I’d pick Longstreet, but like ever’body else, he weren’t omniscient.

EXCELLENT POST! I'll add again, Stuart showed his ass when he turned tail after Custer's attacked him with a considerable smaller force.

Stuart was out for fame on another ride around the yankys he royally fuqkd up

I have always thought that the intentional delay actually turned out to be sorta lucky, because it actually gave time for Sickles to move himself out of position on 2 July.
Lee had intended for Pete to attack northward, towards Cemetery Hill along Emmitsburg Road. Neither he nor Longstreet realized that Hancock had posted troops along Cemetery Ridge the evening before. They would have exposed their flank as Iverson did the day before.
Iversons North. Carolinians were mowed down literally in ranks on Oak Hill on the first day. Rumor says that Iverson was drunk. I don’t buy that though, because those Yankees were hidden behind a stone wall on the edge of the Woods. Poor reconnaissance, not a cork, killed that brigade.
Longstreet, with two divisions almost destroyed big chunks of 3 Union corps. After the battle these corps were divided up, and became part of the First and Second Corps! Had Wilcox been a little stronger and Hancock not drove them back with the First Minnesota, (80% casualties) Meade would have lost Cemetery Ridge!
Pipe Creek would have been the fight on 3 July.
Sickles lost a leg, and was sent back to Washington. He painted himself as saving the position, that Meade had intended to withdraw!😀 he was a democrat, a political promotion had given him a corps, and he was in over his head. His advance nearly lost the battle!
Interesting fellow, but not the hero he pretended to be. But he was instrumental in creating Gettysburg National Military Park, so I have to cut him some slack!😀
Stuart looked down his nose at Yankee Cavalry. Rightly so, before they had been 😀
But in the winter and spring of 62/63, Hooker and Pleasanton had actually created an effective force, rivaling Stuart’s horses.
Stuart discovered this at Brandy Station, and by getting himself eliminated from the campaign in Pennsylvania. I look at this as a major factor in the fight. A lucky break for Meade.
Gettysburg is an interesting battle, and I have studied it, and walked that field dozens of times. I love the place, and I guarantee that it will literally take hold of you.
But most people consider it to be the turning point of the war. Surely it was in the balance between the Army Of The Potomac and The Army Of Northern Virginia.
But I recognize that Grants capture of Vicksburg was much more important to the loss of the war.
Reon

Just a thought, but with the major renovations on Little Round Top, I wonder if the fixed General Warrens sword!😀
That thing has been busted since I was a little kid!😀
Warren was much more of a hero at Gettysburg than Sickels. He was given a corps in recognition.
Sheridan falsely accused him of losing a fight by retreating or advancing too slowly in the chase after Petersburg was abandoned. He was relieved of command and sent home in shame! A later board of inquiry dismissed those charges, but the war was long since over.
Another interesting side story of a battle that seems to have hundreds of interesting side stories!😀
I think this is why it fascinates me and thousands of other people. What it lacks in importance it more than makes up if you look at the details and the interesting men on both sides of the fight.
Many of them are told in Gettysburg, The Story Of Men And Monuments. I believe it’s still available in the gift shop, but probably much cheaper through Amazon. They have sorta turned a once great museum into a tourist trap.

Far and away my own favorite Gettysburg book is “The Second Day at Gettysburg: The Attack and Defense of Cemetery Ridge. July 2nd 1862…


Link

The most detailed and readable account of the First AND the Second Day I have come across, and also details the events leading up to the battle.

Includes the outstanding job of Buford’s intelligence gathering in the days before the battle and his skirmishes with Confederate outliers.

After their poor reconnaissance the Confederates were exceedingly discomforted to find Sickles where he was. My own belief is that had he been back up on the ridge in a single organized Union line, that clearly visible objective would have been broken by an unstoppable Confederate attack. The Rebs KNEW they finally had a chance to decide the war and morale was sky high.

As it was Sickle’s deployment threw both sides into confusion, piecemeal attacks and counterattacks that came down to the 1st Minnesota decide the issue at last light.

Stuart? Yes he gets much of the blame, but Lee approved the mission over Longstreet’s misgivings. But nobody foresaw Hooker being replaced at the last minute by a General Meade who would hustle his army north in reccord time, trapping Stuart on the wrong side of that advance and obliging him to go north clear to Carlisle before he could get around them.

And yet another what if: What off Hood had been allowed to attack the wide open Union artillery park and supply line sitting just in back of the Round Tops as he had earnestly pleaded to do?

All of this JMHO

I think if George Pickett’s division would’ve been put into action day 2 things might have swayed

Mike, you recommended that book before, but I have yet to get it on my nook. Maybe a kindle would have been a better choice? I usually look in B&N for reading material.
I always appreciate your post on these threads. Very often you turn me onto something that I missed. I usually end up learning something new!
Next time you’re up this way, I’d be honored to buy you supper and jaw jack a while!
I have threatened to jump in the truck and Drive to Texas! I have read much about it, and I pray I’m able to come back down there and explore sometime. You and Kaywoodie acting as tour guides!😀
Heck maybe the 3 of us can head up to Montana and see the Little Bighorn battlefield with Shrapnel. That would be the trip of a lifetime for me!😀
Earlybird, Picket didn’t arrive until late afternoon/evening on 2 July. Way too late to take part in that day’s festivities. By then, he had the only division of Lees army that hadn’t been engaged, and thus, full strength. That’s why the assault on the third day fell in his lap!
Lee originally wanted Longstreet’s entire corps, but the heavy losses on 2 July and the fact he would be stripping his right flank made him decide to use Pettygrew and Trimbles divisions, both used up rather roughly handled already, instead.
I often wonder why Lee, a very capable general, would insist on fighting this battle hampered as he was by lack of accurate reccon.
I have heard that he had maybe suffered a slight heart attack in the spring, I also heard the rumor that he was suffering from dysentery when the battle was fought. “Marse Robbert has got the runs,” so to speak!😀
Whatever the fault maybe, one has to admit that Gettysburg was probably his most poorly fought battle.
Definitely an anomaly considering most of his fights, and I can’t see Stonewall making a difference.
Lee was always closer to Pete. His tent was always pitched closer to the second corps.
Some suggested this is because he had to supervise Longstreet more closely, but I think that the myths of his performance is pretty clouded by the attacks that came after Lee’s death and Pete became a Republican.
As I said, no one ever slighted his leadership prior to these two events!
Reon

Meade took a wild guess massed troops in the center July 3 outsmarted us jonnys 🤣

To quote Harry Truman, A school boy's hind sight, is always better than a general's foresight.

I can’t say wild guess. Deductive reasoning.
Meade held a counsel of war, at 8 pm in his headquarters. Each of his corps commanders, and most of the division commanders as well,
Everybody agreed that they held good positions. Stay here and “fight it out”.
There was nothing to be gained by attacking. Lee either had to attack tomorrow or withdraw from lack of supplies.
At the end of the meeting, Meade approached Gibbon, who commanded the Union Center of Cemetery Ridge.
“If Lee attacks tomorrow, it will be on your front.”
Meade didn’t need a crystal ball. Lee had tried both flanks on the 2nd. Constantly pulling troops from the Yankee center to reinforce the flanks. If Meade was weak, it must be in the center.
Besides. Wilcox Had nearly captured it yesterday!
Ewells troops had actually captured some of the Yankees works on Culp’s Hill. They were supposed to attack before daylight, hopefully drawing even more troops from the Union center.
But the Yankees came back in the night, and forced Ewells guys out of their entrenchments, so the attack was never launched.
Now in the Civil War, artillery had one of two jobs. Either counter battery fire or counter force fire.
On attack, the idea was to knock out the defending cannon. On defense, artillery was focused on the enemy infantry. Explosive shot, shrapnel at first, switching to canister as they closed the range.
Hence, we had the great barrage, hoping to knock the Yankee guns out, of drive them away.
Trouble here is that your own powder smoke is gonna obscure your vision. You don’t know how effective your fire is, except by returning fire!

Such a clusterfuck so many advantages could have been exploited.Peg leg Ewell blew the wad day 1 but in his defense he won’t TJ Jackson😃

This is what brought on the great argument between Hancock, the infantry Commander and Hunt who was in charge of artillery, Hunt wanted to conserve ammunition for the infantry assault. Hancock, commanding infantry, realized how hard it was to receive a barrage, especially when your own artillery don’t fire back!
Hancock ordered the guns to fire, Hunt came by, minutes later, ordering them to cease fire. Sometimes the opposite. Hunt got there first, a few minutes later Hancock comes and tells you to shoot back!😀
This argument was carried on in the newspapers after the war! Who was right?
As a former soldier, I would want to hear my buddies shooting back, but hunt definitely had a point too 😀
We all know now how this story ends.
Damn shame that so many died, in defense of the union, or of states rights to govern themselves.
I’m a Yankee. Lived here in Pennsyltucky all my life. I belong here. These hills and ridges are my home. I believe it an honor to lay down my life in defense of my home and family.
That said, there’s definitely another side to this story, the right of the people to govern themselves, outside of Washington influence. That’s worth dying for too.
Screw Washington. I can be responsible for myself.
Reon

I wanted to go to Gettysburg this Saturday but it's going to be rain until 3 pm. My only hope is more of the afternoon will clear up between now and then

I’ll give two thumbs up 👍👍 to Alonzo Cushing even though he was a yanky

Directing his guns while holding his guts in with his other hand!

He was ordered to the rear but held his ground 👍

In Ewells defense on day one, even had Stonewall been there, taking Cemetery Hill or Culps Hill would have made Cemetery Ridge untenable for the Yankees. At that time, if you got your arty on a high point, you had the bad guys by the short hairs.
The strength of Meades position was those hills. If Lee could get possession, and set up a few guns,
Meade couldn’t hold his line.
But then he would’ve withdrawn to Pipe Creek. He would still have the inside track between Lee and Baltimore, Philadelphia, or Washington.
Maybe Lee could grab Harrisburg, the PA capital. But that would have meant a slight victory, he couldn’t hang on long.
He was a long way from his supply lines. He had to keep moving or he’d starve.
Meade and his commanders were well aware of this,
That’s why their consensus on 2 July was “stay here and fight it out”!
Reon

Peg Leg Ewell was suffering from a clumsily amputed leg less than a year previous which jagged bone end caused much pain (even over and above what a sawn-off leg would ordinarily cause).. and took a fall from his horse onto it that very day, which must have been excruciating.

But here’s a take on the end of Day 1 one rarely hears. From the book The Second Day at Gettysburg….

General Lee had sent a note to Ewell suggesting that he take Cemetery Hill “if practical”. Ewell studied the terrain and enemy from his perspective and decided it was not practical for a host of reasons.

One reason was that he had earlier received information that a considerable enemy force was approaching from the east. This threat prove to be true. Brigadier General Adolphus S Williams, in temporary command of the Union 12th Corps, was leading his division north using a rural lane connecting with the Hanover Road…

Williams two brigades, some 3700 men accompanied by 10 Napoleon cannons in two batteries, successfully gained Ewell’s left flank….. They formed two lines of battle… fronting west on either side of the Hanover Road.

Division commander Jubal Early decided the threat needed addressing…. “ I thought it proper to send General Gordon with his brigade to keep a lookout and…. stop any further alarm.”… soon thereafter, Ewell sent his last division under Edward Johnson, to relieve Gordon…

If Cemetery Hill was to be carried, Jubal Early’s men would have to do it. His division, however, was divided and had also suffered sizable losses. The brigades of Gordon and Smith were off to the east protecting the flank - a job normally tasked to cavalry, and the understrength brigades of Harry Hayes and Isaac Avery were disorganized and too small to do much of lasting value without additional coordinated support.

By 7 PM, it would have been very difficult to successfully organize and attack south against the reinforced heights without help from Anderson’s fresh division. Anderson, however, never received an order [from Lee] to advance that evening….

Fortunately for Ewell, General Slocum, commanding the Union right wing, ordered Williams not to engage….

Between 5 and 6 PM, when more Federals were streaming out of and around the town of Gettysburg than Confederates were entering it, many in Anderson’s division believed that one last all-out assault on the heights past town would secure a decisive victory.

No order to advance, however arrived…. While Ewell was evaluating his options for striking at Cemetery Hill, Anderson’s frustrated infantry went into bivouac on Herr’s Ridge.

Two questions.

1) What indeed would Jackson have done? When did he ever ignore a major enemy force on his flank?

2) Where was Lee? He had been on the field since riding up the Chambersburg Pike in the early afternoon. Why did he not send Anderson’s brigade in? They were right there observing the battle. Why not merely ride over to Ewell and evaluate the situation himself?

Good questions

Wasn't Ewell supposed to try and take Culps hill?

In the words of General Lee…. “if practicable”. The quoted passage explains why he did not. Most specifically, Union skirmishers had driven Confederate flankers off Benner’s Hill to Ewell’s left and a force of 3,700 Federals with ten cannons had arrived and set up shop on Ewell’s left flank, which would become his rear should he advance.

Also, Ewell was to take the hill “if practicable” but to “avoid bringing on a general engagement”. Without cavalry Lee, like Ewell, had no idea of the Federal disposition at this point.

A good description here…



Link



In essence Richard Ewell was in a no win scenario on July 1st. With no support from Lee, Longstreet, or Hill; Dick Ewell was expected to take a highly defensible hill, with poor avenues of advance, and even worse positions for his artillery.

Ewell also had to deal with unclear orders from Lee. In his official report, Lee stated, “General Ewell was, therefore, instructed to carry the hill occupied by the enemy [Cemetery Hill], if he found it practicable….” It’s important to note that those words—“if practicable”—never appeared in print until Lee filed his revised report of the battle in January 1864, more than six months after the fight.

Lee went on to say; “Without information as to its proximity, the strong position which the enemy had assumed could not be attacked without danger of exposing the four divisions present, already weakened and exhausted by a long and bloody struggle, to overwhelming numbers of fresh troops.

General Ewell was, therefore, instructed to carry the hill occupied by the enemy, if he found it practicable, but to avoid a general engagement until the arrival of the other divisions of the army, which were to hasten forward.” Unfortunately, in the years since the battle, much emphasis has been placed on the phrase “if practicable”—words that Lee may have never uttered in the heat of battle—and the warning about avoiding a general engagement has been ignored

I can only imagine the confusion that happened there. Surreal actually

In my humble opinion it was an elaborate risky endeavor that Lee took marching to Gettysburg. It was a long march. He had little support and tired men to fight with when he got there. I have read that when Picket marched in he could’ve taken the Union position because they were undermanned. His orders were not to engage. This gave the Union time to reinforce.

That comment came from the British tourist Arthur Fremantle, who accompanied the Army of Northern Virginia for two weeks before crossing the Union lines and traveling on to New York.

I see no reason to doubt his account. Lee being sidelined by shigella or dysentery during this critical time doesn’t seem like something his subordinates would include afterwards in their memoirs.

If he had come down with a severe case of the runs, that would explain much.

I’ve read that as well

Perry’s brigade to the left of Wilcox took cemetery ridge July 2 but didn’t have support would have been a fine time for Pickett to be behind them

When it comes to comparing Ewell vs Jackson, the link I posted emphases how Jackson placed a high emphasis on scouting out the deployments of the enemy before striking. It states that it was this very quality that led to his death, riding out in front of his own troops at Chambersburg on a reconnaissance mission and being shot by them on his return.

Every good battle plan needs a good executor of that plan, Lee was a brilliant strategist and great battle planner but he was not a field commander, after Stonewall Jackson died Lee lost that perfect executor of his brilliant plans. You will notice that after Gen Jackson's death in April of 1863 Confederacy starter losing more battles and eventually the war. In my humble observation Gettysburg would have been a Confederate victory and maybe even end of the war had Gen Jackson been alive and commanded the field forces. Longstreet was great in defense but not in offense and rest of the Confederate General's were too independent rather than team players.

Good point👍

The popular assumption has been that the Union forces on Cemetery Hill on Day 1 were in helpless disarray. Not so, among others Union General Henry Hunt was up there, the guy who literally wrote the book on artillery both sides were using.

In constrast, the guy running the artillery on the Confederate side was the inept Brigadier General William N. Pendleton, who not coincidentally happened to be a close friend and Christian Pastor to General Lee,

From the book “The Second Day at Gettysburg: The Attack and Defense of Cemetery Ridge”:

Lee was about to learn the hard way that Henry Hunt had refined union, artillery, command, logistics, and organization into something approaching a fine art…. The Federal gunners’ superb handling of their pieces against superior numbers on July 1 helped alleviate what could have been an even bigger victory for Lee…..

Pemberton turned his attention to his artillery. He would spend the next several hours, riding up and down…..overseeing the batteries and their supporting elements, placing them as they arrived……However, his work was sloppy and haphazard. He never coordinated the guns or attempted to centralize or fire onto any given point…..

Several batteries were brought online and unlimbered within range of enemy guns, but never fired a round. Some were parked west of Herr’s Ridge still limbered….. When the Union line collapsed later that afternoon, Pendleton placed three batteries on Seminary Ridge… where he placed them under the cover of the Lutheran Seminary instead of unlimbering in “Action Front” to continue the battle… a fourth battery was likewise placed in sanctuary…

At the very height of the Union collapse, when Lee could have used these 15 guns (of which nine were rifled) to bombard Cemetery Hill, they instead remain silent. To make matters worse, the Confederste infantry then south of the Fairfield Road would have benefited from this support as a they continued east toward Cemetery Hill under a terrible artillery fire from the new Union line assembling atop it.

This Southern infantry was called back before being slaughtered…..

I’m not near the Gettysburg scholar that some here are, but like Ewell being flanked by a Union force, ya don’t hear much about any effective Union defense of Cemetery Hill on Day 1, certainly not to the extent of Confederates being driven back.

The boy major Lattimer found out yanky artillery was hell

A most excellent read.

Not a fan of Pendleton, I hold him and Early responsible for the attacks on Old Pete after the war.
But in his defense, as “Chief of Artillery”, his job in the AONV was decidedly different from Hunts in the AOPT.
Hunt had actual authority to place guns on the Union Line. Pendleton had no such authority. His job was mainly to requisition supplies and ammunition for Confederate Batteries.
Though they share the title “Chief Of Artillery”, only Hunt had real power.
But. There was a battery of 6 Napoleons, 12 pound smooth bores, deadly with canister that were supposed to go forward in support of Picket on 3 July.
For some reason, Pendleton moved them. I believe from reading Glenn Tucker’s books that Picket sent a staff officer back for this battery as he approached Emmitsburg Road, but they weren’t there.
Now I can’t say with any certainty that a battery of 12 pounder’s would’ve made a difference.
I doubt it in my own mind. I think the Union Artillery on Cemetery Ridge was too strong.
But my point is that Early as a division commander, talked Lee out of an assault on Cemetery Hill the evening of 1 July. And Pendelton moved the guns that were supposed to go up in supposed of Picket in the assault on 3 July.
Both these guys had something to hide, and the two of them together set out to smear Longstreet,
By the time of their attack, 1870, Lee was dead and Longstreet had become a Republican.
Reon

I thought Porter Alexander was in charge of the Jonny artillery

E Porter Alexander was a, I believe the Brigade Commander of the second corps artillery. Since it was “Longstreet’s Assault” , he was in charge of the artillery barrage.
Very good officer, IMO. But he knew he had a big job on his hands. He spent most of the night of 2 July moving his batteries into position.
Alexander knew the powder smoke would blind him shortly after the guns opened fire. He would have to judge the effectiveness by return fire.
Here’s where Hunt’s orders to cease fire had their effect. As the Yankee guns stopped, Alexander thought they were being driven off. He got a glimpse of the union line as the smoke cleared, and saw a battery limbering to the rear.
He sent a message to Picket. “For Gods sake come quick, or I won’t be able to support you”.
Picket went to Longstreet, “Sir, shall I lead my division forward?” and Pete, knowing nothing else to do, nodded.
You know the rest of the story.😟

If you consider Gettysburg from a Southern point of view, Shakespeare himself couldn’t have wrote a better tragedy!
They were almost unbeatable on the field of battle. In the north, the peace party and copperheads were gaining strength. A win in the back yard of the north might’ve swung the contest. It looks

Very tru

3 years ago Penny and I spent 3 days down there. on Cemetery Ridge there was a two hour ranger presentation on the artillery barrage preceding Pickets Charge.
Those ranger talks are always great, and this one was no exception.
I was hoping it would be posted on YouTube. No such luck.
But I did find an essay y E P Alexander himself.
The second part will follow.

Piss poor fuses

Shelby Foote said Gettysburg was the price the South paid for Robert E Lee.

Shoulda stayed our asses in Virginia

There had been a fire in one of the arsenal’s that produced artty fuses in the beginning of 1863. So the fuses were now having a longer burn time than what they had had up until now.
Working a cannon is much like anything else in that the more you do it, the more you developed a “feel” for it, and soon you can do it without too much of a thought.
But a change in the burn rate of fuses is something sure to throw off that “feel” that you developed.
The confederates weren’t alone, most Yankee gunners had trouble with fuses. I read that most of the ordinance they fired was unfused shot , fired as solid shot!

The majority of my knowledge comes from my reading of history and related things like artillery.
One that I have had for years is this book by Philip Cole. I go back and reread this interesting book every few years. As a gun nut and reloader myself, I find the artty and the nuts and bolts knowledge of these guns kinda fascinating.
Civil War Artillery At Gettysburg

Big ass explosion in Richmond prior to

Another book I have read and reread. This doesn’t have the technical stuff that Cole covers, but it is a very good read about the different batteries that served in the AOTP throughout the war.
Grape and Canister
Trying to recall off the top of my head. Hooker did some great things as commander of AOTP when he took over from Burnside. He got the soldiers better food, fresh veggies, even if they were canned. (People were actually suffering from scurvy) He granted leaves and gave amnesty to many who had walked off after the Mud March nightmare. But he also reworked some of the command structure as well. The Kearny Patches on their caps identified their units building esprit, he created the board of military intelligence after years of the Pinkertons doing intel work, with less than spectacular results.
And he appointed Henry J Hunt as Chief of Artillery. Hunt was a Godsend to the Army. Up until then the guns were commanded by infantry corps commanders. They were leaders of infantry, but very few had much training with artty, often placing batteries where they were ineffective or worse, wrecked by counter battery fire. As I said in a previous post, Hunt had authority to post guns effectively, often overruling corps commanders, as illustrated in the argument with Hancock on 3 July. Hunt also created what was called the Artillery Reserve. Basically an extra brigade of artty, unattached to any corps or units.
WhenSickles put his nuts in the ringers on 2 July, it was often batteries from the reserve that were used to plug a gap long enough for other infantry to arrive. Deadly fighting, gunners were supposed to be supporting infantry, not plugging a gap until the infantry could arrive.! But for a battery to lose a gun was a black mark, and these gunners sacrificed themselves to Confederate Infantry, holding the line until support arrived.
Hunt, among others, most definitely earned their pay at Gettysburg. Chancelersville as well.
There are three battles where the Long Arm stands out. Malvern Hill, Yankee guns parked almost hub to hub, mowed down attacking Rebel infantry. Hill said there were so many lying wounded that the field actually looked like it was crawling with something!😟
Chancelersville, where Yankee batteries saved skedaddled infantry units. Often at terrible cost to themselves.
And Gettysburg, where the Yankee guns pretty much wrecked the advancing infantry by the time they crossed Emmitsburg Road.
Alexander said, they could have probably driven his guns away before the assault ever advanced.
Guns were used to fire counter battery on offense, knocking opposing batteries out and forcing them to withdraw. But defensively is where their power stood out.
Canister, especially out of a battery of 12 pounders, could wreck a regiment of infantry in short order. Those one ounce iron slugs could kill or maim 4 or 5 guys apiece, when they were in ranks bunched up.

Thanks for those videos, Porter Alexander wrote very well.

I have read a major hazard, especially with Confederate shells, was a defective shell exploding while still in or just beyond the barrel.

I heard of premature detonations, but never heard it as a recurring problem.
I know the lead bands on the end of a parrot shell were often shed at the muzzle and killed friendlies posted in front of the guns.
Parrots were forbidden to fire over head of friendly troops for this reason.
The paper machete on a Shenkle wasn’t a problem. It was too light to have any force.
The Shenkle worked very well from the 3” Rifle, or Rodman but the rifling in a parrot worked much better with the lead band . Cole says that even though they shared bore size, union gunners were to use parrot shells in Partot guns, and Shenkle in the 3” Rifle.
I recall he said ther was a battery just south of the copse of trees that were pulled out for lack of ammunition just prior to Pickets advance.
Afterward, it was found that the battery had dumped its shell behind a stone wall to justify withdrawing!😀
I don’t recall what battery, but there are many more stories of heroic defense of positions by batteries! Stuart’s Battery A, 4th US made a heroic stand at the railroad cut in 1 July. They never got the word to retreat.
The defense of Sickel’s position on day two was full of such instances, and I believe everyone has heard of Cushing running his guns right up to the stone wall at The Angle.

There was a gun or 2 on lil round top givin us hell

I believe that late on 2 July they muscled a battery of 6 10 pound Parrots up there. Those guns played havoc on Pickets right flank.
The Parrots ain’t my favorite. They were pretty accurate, but prone to bursting the cast iron tube. Hunt was trying to phase them out, but they’re cheap and accurate. Maybe they killed some crew now and then, but the crew and gun are easily replaced.😀
I have always thought the 3” Rifles better, and the smoothbore Napoleons were much better with canister. The rifles had a smaller bore, and tended to throw a smaller pattern when firing canister.
Those 12 pounder were like a giant sawed off shotgun.
By the time of Gettysburg, IIRC, they accounted for 46% of Meades artty. Lees AONV was around 50%. But they still were fielding quite a few 6 pounders as well.

2 gg grandads 19th va inf under Garnett July 3 here’s a report

Interesting video. Thanks for posting it.
Garnett had no business going forward that day. Unable to walk, he rode at the head of his brigade on horseback. Almost suicidal.
But he was under an unjust cloud, brought on by Stonewall after the battle of Kernstown. Garnett had withdrawn his (The Stonewall Brigade) from an untenable position, but without orders.
Stonewall charged him for this, ordering a court martial.
Stonewall died before anything had come of this, and Lee, recognizing a very good officer, moved him to Pickets division.
He had a bum leg, having been kicked by a horse, but Richard thought he had to prove himself, and led his men toward that volcano on Cemetery Ridge.
His body was never identified.
In 1872, most of the dead of his brigade, presumably his own remains among them, were recovered from the field and reburied in the Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond.
I think it was 1870, when a confederate Brigadier General named George Steuart found Garnett’s sword in the window of a Baltimore pawn shop! Steuart recovered the sword, but died before he could return it to Richards family. The honor fell to his nephew, and the sword is in possession of Garnett’s family.
His uncle L, Richard S Garnett was the first confederate General killed in the war!

Back to Pete I think him and mclaws had some duals

Pete and McLaws, both from Georgia, looked alike, talked and acted alike. Maybe They were too much alike to get along!
But here, I don’t recall the particulars of the falling out. I’m gonna have to do a little research to refresh my memory before I can say anything else about it!
I’ll get back to you on this.

Good read quite a coincidence 19th va meet the 19th mass 😃

https://encyclopediavirginia.org/624hpr-74ac0394a09a2d5/

The falling out came over the Siege of Knoxville. After Chickamaugua. Longstreet had been “The Bull Of The Woods” there, but after Rosecrans withdrew to Chattanooga, Pete found it almost impossible to work with Bragg. (Nobody liked Bragg, but he was a friend of Jeff Davis)
They split up, Pete took his corps to lay siege to Knoxville, where Burnside was holed up.
McLaws and Longstreet
In spite of this, McLaws defended Pete from the attacks on him for Gettysburg by Early and Pendelton!
IIRC, there were some hard feelings between them after Pete wrote his autobiography, “From Manasses To Apomatox” , but to be honest, it’s been 15 years since read it. Pete was sometimes wrong in his recollections, but his book was written in reply to over ten years of slander from the Virginia crowd who held him as scapegoat for Gettysburg.
Long story short. I think Pete was among the best generals the South had. Now I’ll admit, he made mistakes, but I place his leadership above Jackson and Stuart. Had he had the good luck to be born in Virginia, or had he died of his wounds at The Wilderness, I’m sure he would have found the same Sainthood as Lee, Stonewall, and Stuart enjoy.

Pretty cool! I’m glad you found this!
Reflecting here, but the Medal of Honor during the Civil War was much different from the Congressional Medal Of Honor now! Most of the guys who have earned this award, lost their lives in the action.
OTOH, I know one awarded in the Civil War, got his for pouring a pot of coffee on a lit fuse of an artillery shell!
Quite different from using your body to shield your buddies from a grenade!

Pickett didn’t join his venture into Tennessee probly some bad vibes

Yeah they didn’t mention that flag followed Gen Armistead over the stonewall with his hat on his sword under a hellish fire and waved it over one of Cushings guns 😃😃😃 proud moment for Virginia 👍

Without situational awareness due to lack of effective reconnaissance, Lee didn't know where the AOP was from the time that he started his march north until Heth's troops ran into Buford's troops on July 1st at Seminary Ridge.

Maybe he thought that he could defeat the AOP one Corps at a time as they came north, but he never gathered the AONV into a defensive posture. If Lee had withdrawn to the west of South Mountain instead of east and south towards Gettysburg he might have forced Meade to attack through the gaps on a narrow front where his forces would have had a big advantage. A portion of the AONV under Longstreet had been able to hold off a stronger Union force at the battle of Thoroughfare Gap/Chapman's Mill in 1862, before Second Manassas, so this could have been Thoroughfare Gap Version 2.0.

Gettysburg is something of an anomaly for Lee, as he was blind throughout the first 2 days.
In every other fight of his he had fairly good intel and it always showed.
He was always very aggressive, but to force the issue like he did on 2 July, lacking a clear picture, is a big mistake.
Also on day two he never left his HQ after his morning visit with Pete, and he sent and received only one message according to his staff.
All his units were to attack as the unit on their right went in. But this broke down in Hill’s sector, with was very near to his HQ.
He always did let his subordinate commanders run their own affairs, but both Hill and Ewell were new as corps commanders, and to top that off the major rearrangements in creating new army corps many commanders of divisions and brigades were new to their post as well.
One would think that after a major shake up of the commands, Lee should have been more attentive.

More attentive and more cautious. Neither Ewell nor Hill were Jackson. Lee might have done better if he had replaced Jackson with Stuart and promoted someone else to lead the cavalry, but that didn't happen and since everyone who was there died long ago, almost everything else is pure speculation.

Good point👍

Stuart had temp command over Jackson’s corp after his death

I finished up “The Stars In Their Courses” last night, and I’m left with a couple thoughts worth pondering.
Meade gets credit for a great victory n a battle he really didn’t fight much. The guys on the line, corps commanders and division commanders, even regimental and battery leaders won the fight.
After Pickets withdrawal, at least 3 corps commanders urged him to attack with the two corps that had not been engaged. He thought driving Lee away was victory enough. He set there doing nothing while Lee was getting his wounded and supply trains away on 4 July. He conducted a half hearted pursuit of Lee, and failed to try and finish the fight, even with Lee trapped for a week by the flooded Potomac.
Lincoln was sorta disgusted by this. He compared Meade to an “old woman, shooing the geese out of her yard”!
Lee himself acted very differently from his conduct of the battle when it came to the retreat. Instead of discretionary orders, he was very specific about what he wanted Imboden to do with the wounded and supply trains, and he carefully mapped out Hills route to follow that evening.
Lee accepted the blame, as did others. Ewell said “It took a dozen blunders to lose Gettysburg, and I committed most of them”! Pete likewise tried to share the guilt and sadness of his chief. He didn’t want anyone doubting that Lee was still the man who would make victory possible.
But it seems to me that Stuart, letting himself get cut off by the AOTP, and leaving Lee blind on the invasion escaped any finger pointing. He also had the good fortune to be martyred along with Stonewall before people started analyzing what went wrong.
And lastly, I have a hard time believing this was an invasion. With no supply of ammunition other than what they carried, no food, living off the land and requisitioning what was needed from the towns they captured, even the fact that they were scattered from South Mountain to York PA tells me this was a raid. Get into Pennsylvania, win a battle in their territory, then get back home safely was the objective.
Sure, capturing one of the bigger cities like Philadelphia, Baltimore or Washington would surely be done if it happened to become possible, but it was not an objective. They were mainly to be used as a carrot and stick for maneuvering the AOTP into a situation where they would be forced to attack.
The idea that the Confederate leadership had in this campaign, was hopefully to draw troops away from Grant, who had already corked the bottle that contained Vicksburg. A long shot at best. And one that points out that even in early 1863, the South was beginning to feel a little desperate.

Am I wrong? Was Lee better at defending a position, than on the attack?