Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Here's a good one for the 45/70 crowd

Got this in an Email today





This guy and a buddy were sighting their rifles in. One of the guns was leaned up against the 4 wheeler he was standing on. The gun started to fall and I'm not sure if his buddy grabbed it, or something on the bike caught the trigger. Either way, he caught a .45-70 round right under the collar bone. I think it goes with out being said, how lucky he is to still be here.

The big hole around his shoulder blade is where the bullet entered and it traveled under his skin and exited right there on his neck, above his spinal cord! Just goes to show that he truly is LUCKY! The bullet just burned the edges of the skin of the wound that you see in the picture. He's getting better & better every day, last night he was even doing push ups!! He's finally able to use his arm again! Somehow it didn't hit anything major and basically ended up being a really bad flesh wound! It is truly a miracle that he is alive and not paralyzed!
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Imagine a HV round well over 2000fps, like say a 375HH 458 win mag, or a 416rem. Think the results would be the same for this guy? Heck even a 300 mag would have split him wide open and certainly destroyed the spine!

This was point blank from a 45/70, and it's suppose to work on a buffalo? Wow, this guy must be made of super human flesh!

Low velocity bullets simply don't have the explosive effect, or the penetration for the biggest game. But then I guess a human survivor shot in the back from point blank will still have disbelievers!

Or maybe this was just a freak event? Does anyone really think that the same hit with a 375HH or a 458 win mag would have shown the same results?

Slow heavy bullets are like a long range punch press. IIRC, I believe it was Elmer Keith who said you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Larger meplats and striking bone can cause more damage but you are not going to get the blood shot "hydrostatic" shock damage like a high velocity expanding bullet. He was very lucky it was not 1/2 inch deeper or a slightly different angle.

An interesting story was told to me by my brother, an ER physician, several years ago. A man was brought into the ER who had been shot in the shoulder at close range by a 270. Similar circumstance to this accident. He was still alive, as the cup and core bullet at close range had failed and blown up on his shoulder. More distance or a better premium bullet and he would have been dead. This story was told to me several years ago. I will have to hear it again this Christmas.

I would think that the bullet was very soft but perhaps not, one very lucky shooter to say the least. Some very ugly holes to heal up on his body. He won't be shooting for awhile I guess.

Hack--The guy wasn't shot in the back--just creased. You wouldn't be willing to stand in front of my 45-70, now would you? I didn't think so.

I shot a 1600 pound bison bull for meat two weeks ago, and used a 45-70 Sharps. Behind the shoulder, through and through with a 480 grain flat nosed bullet I cast myself. Animal was on the ground dead in no more than 5 seconds.

A friend that was with me has considerable African experience, including 5 Cape Buffalo. When he saw the amount of blood and the internal damage he was amazed, and commented that he didn't think that his 416 Rigby would do as well. The ranch manager said that it was one of the two quickest kills he had ever seen, other than a head shot. Just sayin'--

Either way, that is one lucky dude, that's all i can say. Not sure how he could come out of that without being paralyzed.....

Son of a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That looks like it burned!

JJ, I don't know if you can conclude what you did from this incident. I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion though. I'd certainly pick something with more oomph for cape buff than the 45-70.

I once shot a bull elk from about 150 yds off-hand. His butt was toward me with a sever quarter away from me but with his head and neck craned around back to look at me. I was shooting 250-gr Nos Part at about 2950 fps out of a 340 Wby. I caught him in the short ribs but the bullet stayed between the hide and the ribs, traveling all the way to the shoulder where it exited only to enter, again, about mid-neck, broke it and killed him where he stood.

While this is different of course it brought that scenario to mind immediately. This man was a centimeter or two from being a corpse, maybe millimeters. Had a 375 bullet taken the same path, it may have flayed open more of it's path but I can see the outcome being the same.

My take is it's less a matter of energy and more a matter of where the bullet went.

I do not have the experience with game that a lot of you have, but GSW responses have been a part of my life for over 3 years. Bullets travel around a lot in a person and the slower the bullet per given weight, typically the straighter the path. A pistol round usually travels fairly straight, yet a 223 bounces all over inside sometimes even exiting the same side of the body it enters. The twelve guage does the most distruction, and the 22 travels the oddest paths.

I once had a patient shot in the shin and we could not find an exit wound until he urinated and started screaming. It hit the urethra and esited the urethral os. ouch

Randy

I got to witness a file with slides at a State Medical Examiner's Convention. The title of the forum for LE was "Not All Homocides are Homocides".

Let's just say a 150gr. SP 30/06 into the hard palate is not always fatal when trying to kill yourself.

A second one after driving down the road a ways is.....

Oh yeah, the first one was stopped by the hard palate and exploded (even uglier than the photo above when shards exit the neck).

Pretty silly logic when just being lucky is all that saved him.

What do they say about if and buts?

Oh, I guess you figure this is easily repeatable with a .45-70 (or a 45 acp for that matter)?

I'd be willing to wager otherwise.

Just another 45-70 failure as I see it!! I wish I could post the film I have on the 45-70 being used on elk..It is pretty disgusting display of caliber failure..In fact it caused a big bruhaha between me and the ranch owner as I demanded they put an end to the killing. They were allowing the animals to suffer for perhaps 20 to 30 minutes as they stood staddle legged with a double lung shot while those bastards smoked cigerettes, joked and laughed, then I said shoot him now or I am going to and "screw your one shot kill". They were going to film only one shot kills at any expense..I shot the bull and left the ranch and never booked another hunt for him..He went broke about 6 months later and deservedly so..He was using hot Nosler handloads in a No.1 Ruger...

I read an article by a well known Gun scribe wherein a cape buffalo was killed with his 45-70 and of course the hot loaded ammo from that other guy, and it was applauded by the writter..Yet if you read the article properly you would have realized the bull went about two miles after taking more than a few solid hits in the fabled triangle..This article has been use as proof the 45-70 is a cape buffalo rifle...

It's all BS folks, if you are going to be a hunter, use enough gun or stay home, the cost of fame using lighter calibers is all about personal ego and the price is just too high IMO. I can't stop it but I sure am not required to sanction it.

Hmmm. I think I know of the writer using the old war horse on cape buff and though it can be done, I agree, never having taken a buff, it wouldn't be on even my long list of choices for that job. That writer seems to be a very common sense guy though.

But I disagree concerning elk, assuming of course, you use it at a range appropriate for it's velocity and the right bullet (was it?). I totally agree though with your attitude toward the shooter letting the animal die a slow death but the fault in this situation seems to lie with him (I'll not call him a hunter) not the cartridge. I can't stand around watching an animal, any animal, let alone one that regal and grand die that way.

There's an unlimited amount of prejudice and ignorance being expressed.

But I guess the "experts" are those who've never used a 45-70, with supreme loads at least. And "the 45/70 crowd" surely don't know much about hunting or ballistics

If the writer referred to was Brian Pearce, then it's an outright lie to say the buff went 2 miles! Actually, an unseen cow on the offside of the big old bull was killed by the first shot which completely penetrated the bulls shoulders. The bull turned to run and he gave it two more in short order wherein the bull was finished within a few yards. And that was from a 400gr that was barely going 1800 fps! A mild load (28,000 psi)from a Marlin which can easily handle over 40,000 psi.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yeah, those .45s sure didn't work here either. But then JJ is bored and trollin'

If the naysayers would try a Ruger #1 with 350 gr Hornady Interlock bullets @ 2200 fps they would see the light.
This is not your pappy's Trapdoor Springfield!
whelennut

Marginal hits don't kill. Put one squarely through the vitals and see what happens.

The burned edges of the entry/exit is most likely cauterization done at the hospital to stop bleeding.

I have about decided that Ray is either full of chit or has never seen an animal hit properly with a 45-70 loaded with a good cast bullet at the right velocity. One thing for sure and certain, he hasn't seen my Sharps work on bison.

I vote for the full of chit part for sure. I suspect the latter is true too.

I remember that article!
I was pretty impressed with what the 45-70 did to those two buffs.
Makes me want to take my brothers 1886 to Africa.

Also, IIRC, one of the PH's present when Pearce killed the Buff said something about his 416 Rigby not penetrating as far as Brian's 45-70?
Or do I have that wrong?

I will admit here again that I ate crow regarding the 45/70 or the 45/110's abilities to kill all matter of game. With hard cast bullets they do penetrate and kill and those flat noses penetrate and kill. I would have no qualms in taking a 110 to Africa for buffalo, in fact I plan to do so. I know that they've been used to kill elephant as well, but having said all that, I have no doubt in my mind that speed kills and with a properly constructed bullet a 460 Weatherby (as an example)with softs will kill much better and with a solid outpenetrate any of the old charcoal burners any day. jorge

The Marlin Lever action will handle some heavy loads, but the Ruger # 1 is even stronger. Mine would shoot a Lyman 555 gr flatnose cast from pure linotype as fast as any sane person would want. I never did hunt anything dangerous with it but I was also testing the Barnes 400 gr. semi-spitzer with the .049" jacket. The Ken Waters PET LOADS lists a charge of 55 grs IMR 3031 and a 400 gr bullet at 2,053 fps.!
I'm sure Buffalo have been killed with a lot less! Or not?
whelennut

Yup..A 525 grain .460 diameter cast bullet at 1820 fps out of only a 22" barrel and under 40,000 PSI(Pressure tested at White Labs) is a marginal Deer caliber.

Dang..I guess Ray has seen tougher Deer here in Idaho than I have in the last 61 years.

Jayco

Jorge,
If I ever do get a chance to hunt buffalo(I never have yet) I do think I would be more comfortable with my 416 Rigby and 400gr Aframes or solids, depending upon what the PH recommended-I just thought this was an interesting thread and I do remember being a bit surprised by Pearce's results with that 45-70 load.
Just some thoughts from the 'cheap seats!'

If memeory serves me Brian Pierce used a 405 grain "Cor-Bon" aka SAAMI compliant(28,000 for the 45-70) load.It does say something about velocity and penetration,though.His load was something like 1600 fps with a 405 grain.

I have it somewhere as it was impressive,the penetration.

Jayco

Jayco,
Thank you.
I have that article buried someplace, I think I will go look for it over the holidays.

While I have no experience with it I'm not sure the 460 B uses all that velocity to good effect, does it? Probably partly due to the fact humans have to handle and shoot it, the "African" cartridges have historically gone in the 2100-2400 fps range because that has been found to work.

John Taffin mentions the Linebaugh test in which a hard cast 45-70 525-gr or so at 1550 fps out penetrated a 500 NE incl a 458 Win solid. What the 460 B would do with a solid I don't know but vel can be the enemy of penetration. In medicine we have a saying that, "better can be the enemy of good."

I have no dog in this little argument so carry on and have a very good Christmas all.

Not bad for a marginal Deer cartridge.



Jayco

logcutter:

Actually, it was a 400gr FN, FMJ at 1800 fps (approximate). Yeah, on the box it said 1600+, but from his 1972 vintage Marlin (22"), it gave about 1800 fps, according to the article. Still within 28,000 cup/psi.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yep, you're right, it was a 405gr. I too have kept that article for reference.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

That picture is from Brians article on the 45-70 and some pressures he wrote on what he thinks is possible..



Jayco

CZ:

My cast load in the 45-70 is a 425 grain at 1834 fps in my Guide Gun under 35,000 PSI(Pressure Checked)with my components.

I am not here to say the 45-70 is equal to the 458 Win Mag or it should be the choice for Africa,just saying people like Ray Atkinson, who I normally pay attention to,have such a hard on for the 45-70 there completely irresponsible and "un professional" in there replies to it.

Just saying...

Jayco

LogCutter.....I do love my lever guns and that 1895 Marlin 45/70 but when you been around this planet for as long as Father Time Atkinson, you do gain knowledge that others can not see, "the forest for the trees" simply put.

Now these kids dreams (cowboy enhanced perhaps) of what the 45/70 is and what it was meant to do and what you might get away with once or twice, is by no means the absolute in the day to day use of a "dangerous game rifle" understand.
It is the same Bull Crap that has gone on with the .270 Winchester can be used to take anything on the planet attitude by those who are infatuated with the caliber etc.

I am far from being an expert on the hunting of dangerous game animals but I can tell you that even with those proper caliber rifles, there are hunters killed every friggin year with the right equiptment. So now factor in a caliber that is NOT a dangerous game rifle and see how long you would carry on in the wild of the Dark Continent hunting Buff, Elephant, Lion & Hippo my dear sir.

Mr. Atkinson has conveyed his thoughts on the 45/70 caliber and sometimes it is like hitting your head against the wall because some people will "never" understand, why you don't walk off the end of the pier until you take that last step and your arse hits the water below.

Logcutter, and CZ,
Read Brians article carefully, do you know how far that bull went before he died? That milage and time element is the most dangerous time in a DG hunters life. that bull made a lot of tracks with a lot of hits....You may think you can rewrite the rules on what it takes to kill a Cape Buffalo but thats just folley, that rule was established years ago, and the 45-70 was not there, it does not have the velocity or energy figure to do so properly..A 22 Hornet can kill a buff, and has, but its not a buff gun.

I don't have a "hard on" for the 45-70, I have an opinnion based on the number of failures I have seen with it and based on using it on elk, that is where we get our opinnions.

Sir, Your not required to accept my opinnion, but you should not deny me the right to express it, nor call me unprofessional, I am professional, and would bet my dollars to coffee and donuts that I have shot a hell of a lot more dangerous game than you...

Inasmuch as you live in Idaho, if you ever get down this way I would be glad to enlighten you on some 45-70 elk kills I have on film and with a Ruger No.1 and some fairly warm loads. Be glad to show them to you.

Ray, your argument doesn't hold water. Haven't you seen the video of the Cape that was shot numerous times with a 500 and it kept going. What is your excuse for that instance?

"Now these kids dreams (cowboy enhanced perhaps) of what the 45/70 is and what it was meant to do and what you might get away with once or twice, is by no means the absolute in the day to day use of a "dangerous game rifle" understand.
It is the same Bull Crap that has gone on with the .270 Winchester can be used to take anything on the planet attitude by those who are infatuated with the caliber etc."

Last fall I watched a couple of guys shoot a pronghorn fawn four times with .270's. The fawn was still going and dragging its entrails, when my buddy shot it in the head with a .257Bob - killed it! Not saying that a .270 isn't adequate for fawn antelope - but from emperical evidence it is definitely inferior to the 'Bob....

Have a Merry Christmas!

Johnny $

Yup, .270s can't kill anything bigger than jackrabbits. Certainly not an antelope. Anyone knows that.

.45-70 are really just the same as a .270 without the range - a 50 yd rabbit rifle where the .270 is a 100 yds rabbit gun.

Meanwhile, Ray's fabled .25-35 will kill elk to 3000 yds - off hand from horseback of course (without the helmet ).

This place is so much fun

I like the old phrase sometimes applied to various things which goes something like: "What you can't do with said combo (rifle, cartridge, bullet) says more about the user than the tools." That most certainly applies to the 45-70 and elk. It doesn't mean the old 45 is equal to being ideal for the big African bruisers. Then again, a questionably credible post using an accidental flesh wound to infer anything about a rifle, cartridge, or bullet and its use on African game is what?

Like the 30-06 in North America, the 45-70 in capable hands is plenty of gun -within its range- for most stuff that lives and breathes on this planet. A 416 anything in the wrong hands will no doubt be a dismal failure too often even on whitetails however.

I would use the stiff 45-70 on any game that naturally runs away from you and then be very careful of placement, like we are always supposed to do anyway. I would not though choose to use it on big game that might to choose to run at and through you though it obviously can be done.



The two bullest on the left are 405-gr Laser Cast, the second hit a 450 lb cow elk a little high tight behind the should as she was quartering strongly toward me. It took out the aorta, smashed many veterbral bodies, broke her opposite hip and was found in the ham opposite of the side of entry. It traversed some 45" of tissue and no doubt would have exited had it not toured through so much bone which no doubt also deformed it.

The cow was "slammed" to the ground, feebly got up, went 25 yds., laid down and I finished an already finished animal. I have no compunctions on using this load on a big bull provided the range is reasonable and I can put that thumb-sized slug through the pumps or bellows.

Having said that, I would be loathe to generally go against either JJH or Ray's advice because of their experience which exceeds mine.

edited to add that in regard to my first remark, there is an AK bear guide whose name escapes me now and I'm sure more than one, who carried a 45-70 successfully for clean-up work on browns.

It's only Merry Christmas from me today to all of you guys!!!

Ray

Part of my family grew up in Twin Falls.My uncle ran the International Harvester dealership for years and sold it a few back.The rest of that clan moved up to the Sun Valley area and none of them were hunters.My first hunt was in the Selway in the very early 50's back when Elk hunting was at it's best in my opinion.

Merry Christmas.

Jayco

That's what happens with a correct bullet and load.

jwp475--That is exactly the problem. People are using the wrong bullet at the wrong velocity. We use a 480 to 520 grain flat nosed bullet at 1250 fps, or a 511 to 520 grain round nosed bullet at 1200 to 1300 fps and shoot all the way through them. On the shoulder and out the other shoulder, or behind the shoulder, it makes no difference.

The bull shot with the 505 Gibbs was hit behind, not on the shoulder, nearly broadside. There was no exit wound. The guy at the meat processing plant found the bullet, and is sending it to me.

I shot a Bull Bison with a 416 Rigby in the rib cage with no exit. Yet my 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain flat point hard cast at 1100 FPS will exit everytime and so will the 475 with a 420 grain at 1380 FPS.
People use the incorrect bullet for the task and then dog the caliber. Seems it never stops..........

We shot a bull with my 45-70 at the same ranch a couple of weeks before the gentleman was there with the Gibbs. I had a friend with me that has hunted Africa a half dozen times and has five Cape Buffalo to his credit. When he saw the pass through and the damage the cast flat nosed bullet did, he commented that he didn't think his 416 Rigby would any better.

He was so taken with the rifle and the load that he wanted to buy it from me, and I sold it to him. I don't think that will be the last animal taken with that rifle.

When the perfect shot is made, most anything will kill. A perfect shot is easy to make at 60 yards with million power scope and a perfectly placed rest if the shooter is not afraid of his firearm.

While my first Cape Buffalo was shot head on from that perfect rest using a 416 rem mag with a 6 power scope and pushing 350 grain A Frames resulting in a DRT, the rest were a little more interesting. With that hit, I think most any reasonable cartridge would have had the same results.

The next two buffalo were a whole different story. I say two because they were at the same time from about 5o feet, coming strait at me in the long grass. I that instance I had what I consider the minimum caliber for those circumstances, a 470 double. Both were hit in the chest and went down in a heap. One was center punched, the other was not. For those advocating using anything less under those circumstances, I wish you luck.

On another the shot was crossing, at 100+ yards. I was using the 416 Rem Mag. The shot was slightly back of shoulder, at which the buff move off. After about 25 yds he stopped and turned, intentions unknown. A second shot in the same spot put him down. A third finisher was required. Again I was using the 416 Rem Mag, 350 grain A Frames at 2600 fps. While they did not exit, they were under the skin on the off side. Not perfect shots. Would something less have done the same under those circumstances? I think not.

When hunting dangerous game you never know what will happen. The perfect setup may never present itself, and you may find yourself in the absolute worst situation, how your are armed may determine if you walk back to camp or are scraped up and carried back in a can.

45/70 debate aside, I wonder what the collective brainpower of the gomers that would leave a loaded and cocked rifle leaning on a 4 wheeler might be. This is more about mishandling of a firearm than an argument about cartridge effectiveness. In the hands of these gomers the 45/70 is probably a bad round for shooting at watermelons.
pak

goodnews,

I think quite a few alaskan guides use the .45/70 for brown bear. I am sure, though, you are thinking of Ed Stevenson of Sheep River Hunting Camps. http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Ed is going on his 50th season in the bush after brown bear. In those years he used everything from 6,5s to .375s, from bolts over autos to levers.

His standby were 1886s and 1895s in .45/70. In recent years he has gone to a Marlin .45/70, because it carries so nicely.

The load he uses? 400 gr. GS Custom FN. Plain works for brown bear in the thick stuff.

Cmg, Yes, that's the one.

As logcutter put it, a blessed Christmas to you all and I wish the best to all in the New Year.

goodnews,

blessed christmas to you and yours, too.

Ed is one, who influenced me in the choice of my rifles.

After reading about him, I got to know him and now guide for him in AK.

He turned 80 this year and after a little low time, is going strong.

sharpsguy, sir he shot 5 buffalo. so then you must agree he is a novice. by default you agree that he is a beginner an well on his way to to become experienced. but not just yet.is someone that have taken 5 white tail an experienced hunter? can i quote what he has to say about white tail as the truth?

i know africa is foreign to most people. good hunters have been taking dgame there for more than a century, can we at least let our selves be guided by their guidelines.

i havnt seen one of them referring the 45-70 as THE calibre to take the cape.why are so many people showing disrespect to a generation of so called white hunters of africa in saying they dont know what they are talking about when they dont recommend the 45-70.

when i am hunting the americas i ask around from the guys that know the lay of the land and i bring along accordingly.

so why do you guys not show the same respect for the experienced african hunters when they tell you rather bring something stronger than the 45-70?.

this is not an armchair discussion you will meet something over here that wants to kill you with its last breath.

this is not for espn or the out doors channel or to win an argumant, this is plain good advice.

will the 45-70 do the job? most probably. is there something out there that can do the job better? hell yes!!!! so why when you are staking your live are you going to take the second best thing?.



sir i beg of you to reconsider. please!!

LT_DAN--I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but I would say that someone who has taken 5 Cape Buffalo is at least qualified to comment on the performance of his bullets on the animals he has taken as compared to what he saw of the 45-70 on an American bison bull. If someone has taken 5 whitetail deer, he is at least qualified to comment on his bullet performance on those animals.

FWIW, I have never taken a Cape Buffalo, but I certainly intend to, if not in 2010, at least by 2011. And I intend to use my 45-70. Here's why. It is damned accurate. I can hit eggs all day long at 50 yards with it with open iron sights. And shooting cast bullets in the 500 grain weight range it will penetrate with most of the vaunted African cartridges, and out penetrate most of them.

In Africa,I have killed two kudu, a blue wildebeast, a black wildebeast, a gemsbok and a zebra as well as a number of smaller animals with the Sharps. I have shot ALL THE WAY THROUGH all of them, and have not recovered a single bullet. I shot the black wildebeast in the rear end for a finishing shot after I broke both of his front shoulders on the first shot. The second shot passed completely through him lengthwise, and exited his chest. That is roughly 70 inches of penetration. Before I shot the zebra, my PH commented that he thought my string of pass throughs would be broken. I asked him why, and he said that "a 375 H&H wouldn't do it." I told him I would shoot the zebra on an angle from shoulder to ham to see if I could shoot through him on a diagonal. I did, and got a complete pass through with a 511 grain paper patched bullet. After he saw that, the PH said that I would have no problem whatever with a Cape Buffalo with the Sharps.

I understand about tradition. I also understand that this grand old American rifle has plenty of horsepower and range if it is loaded properly and shot by a man who truly knows how to use it. Bison can be damned hard to kill. Just ask the Namibian PH that shot one six times over here last year with a 458 Win. He is a friend of mine, and was astounded that the animal took six good hits before it went down.

You boys that have your knickers in a wad need to back up and take a deep breath. The Good Old Boy Club in Africa doesn't have the only rifles and cartridges in the world that will take dangerous game. There are a couple of 130 year old rifles and cartridges on this side of the pond that work pretty well, too.

sharpsguy, someone that has taken only 5 buffalo has NO business in stating anything. i am sorry that this sounds wierd, i truly am. never the less it is fact.

sir i do not mean to offend you i assure you, please take what i say as sincere as one can convey them over the net. i am sure that if you and i where next to a campfire in the bush and we could speak person to person , we would understand each other or at the worst agree to disagree.

please come and visit us with your trusted 45-70 and make up your own mind. there are a few ph's that cater for the 45-70, and they are good and professional, you can trust them.

let us know of your results and good hunting.

best wishes from the dark continent

LT Dan,
From the outside looking in, I think the umbrage that is taken is not with the cartridges you recommend, but what we perceive as your possible lack of familiarity with what cartridges like the .45-70, .45-90 and .50-90 are capable of doing.

Expat

Exactly.... How many Buff have the African guide seen shot with a proper load in a 45-70? There are numerous example of 458's ad larger that failed with bullets that weren't up to the task

I have a pretty extensive Africana book collection, have been to Africa three times and only shot two buffalo, but I've been around this hobby a long time and either know or know of LOTS of PHs and clients with literally hundreds of buffalo & elephant to their credit. Among my many books there are stories of buffalo & elephant taken with Spears, bows (compound & recurve) all sorts of BP rifles & cartridges, even with a 22 short! So the differentiation is one of "adequate" or good enough to mitigate any possible ramifications of poor shot placement or an unprovoked charge. The 45/70 is certainly ADEQUATE to take buffalo and even elephant,( hell, I'm working up a hunt to take my 45-110 Sharps for buffalo, but never elephant, I'm not stupid) but it is FAR cry from an optimum caliber. Sure, a cast hardened 45 @ 12-1300 fps will shoot clean through a buffalo, but a Solid out of a modern 458 will do that and more, so those of you that compare a hard cast 45/70 to a soft point 458 and claim more penetration is just not a valid measure of effectiveness. Oh and by the way, with today's premium bullets there are very few, very few PHs that recommend solids for buffalo anymore.

If you want to shoot a buffalo with a 45/70 go right ahead! it's your hunt! but if that caliber was the cat's meow, you'd find it all over the place in Africa as you find other American calibers like the 06 and the 458 Win Mag. The number of hunters using 45/70s in Africa is statistically insignificant and as far as PH use it is NON-EXISTENT. Finally, to even consider it's use on elephant, again do it, hell. people use bows & arrows, but not me, not ever. And one more thing, a Bison ain't no Cape Buffalo. jorge

So you're saying that all of Elmer Keith's writings on proper buffalo rifles is BS?I don't believe he shot more than 4 or 5 cape buffalo and 2 bison in his life.

Brian.

I'm sorry but this is funny..Because the Top Dogs could not agree on the 458 Win Mag in Africa,one Top Dog went to not just one,but two 45-70 threads on the African Forum and the 458 Win Mag thread went bye bye.

Yooz guys are funny but it is the net!

Jayco

I would be enlightened if anyone could name me those "quite a few" Alaskan Brown Bear guides that pack a 45-70 for backup?

I have made my statement to the extent that I find the fantasy surrounding the 45-70 to be false and without merit, at least based on my experience with the cartridge, and its too late for me to transgress, I do however wish that I had never bothered to comment on it..I so tire of having to keep a get away horse tied out behind the house!

I just finished watching Boddington's new video on Rifles for Africa where he covers the whole gambit from dik-dik to elephant and from the 22lr to the 700 NE. Great video. Part of the video deals with PH personal preferences and a couple of interviews with them. The one germane to the topic at hand was the interview with Barry Duckworth and the gent who wrote the lates grat book on elephant hunting, Harlan I believe is his last name. Together their kils number in the thousands of elephants. Both used the 458 Win mag almost exlusively and they went into great detail about the early problems with poor penetration of same as a result of Ball powders and poor velocities or "squib loads" (sic) of 1850-1900 fps.

They were emphatic that with today's powders and modern 450-500gr solids, the 458WM at 2150 is a real killer on jumbos. So one has to ask if the 458 suffered from poor penetration under 2000 fps, how can the 45/70 be considered as even "adequate" at 1300 or even at 1800 fps? I also found it noteworthy that a lot of American calibers were mentioned, especially the 06 & 270 as great for PG. There was ZERO menttionof the 45/70. Zip, Nada. Lastly, I'm proud to say that I count Craig as a friend and we've spoken at length about the 45/70. If you read my post above, his views are almost identical. Take that for what it's worth, he only been on ninety-seven safaris at last count...jorge

BrentD,
Like so many you reach out to make a point by suggesting that I killed elk at 3000 yds. with a 25-35, a feeble attempt at humor but funny all the same and I got a good laugh out of it..but the fact is I have killed a number of elk with the 25-35 carbine, but alas they were never shot at over 100 yards and only a few past 75 yards and all were broadside. True, a 45-70 would work under the same conditions...but neither IMO are elk rifles for the once a year hunter in todays hard elk hunting conditions that will certainly get worse with the advent of the wolf infestation...

All I am saying is if you want to be successful with any degree of regularity in today elk country where you will see perhaps one or two good bulls in a season of hunting the use a caliber that will handle any conditions, thus my choice of a 300 H&H or a 338 Win. I consider the 30-06 with 200 or 220 gr. Nosler my choice of minimum today...

jeorge1

I don't have a clue where that post directed at me came from.I have repeatedly said here and at AR that if I went to Africa,I would choose another caliber above the 45-70..My POINT is some of you guys get your rocks off knocking it and with the wrong data and bullets..Every knot head knows the 45-70 is not a 458 Win Mag but what is the purpose of continual knocking of a fine caliber set off by JJ Hack the 7MM Hit 'em again guy to rid the 458 Win Mag thread few of you agreed on.

With respect..Ray is just full of sheet on the 45-70 and it's ability to kill Elk.Maybe in his time with SAAMI loads and 28,000 as a limit and all the bullet that fell into that category,not the North Fork/Swift A-Frame/Nosler and others..

You guys are nuts..What is the purpose of knocking the 45-70????????????JJ started this not a 45-70 guy..Hint/Hint...

Jayco

Actually, Ray, I think I "presumed" that since Stevenson used the 45-70 and it's in a handy package for those AK'ans who must make a rifle a fifth appendage, there would be more. It's always dangerous to presume, so no, I don't know of others specifically by name.

I really think there isn't as much disagreement as some here think or it appears here. All admit the 45-70 would do the job; few would say it's ideal or the best choice including me.

Ray, you really don't need that horse tied up behind the house

Ed Stevenson and his son come immediatley to mind.Phil Shoemaker also carries an 1886 Browning carbine quite a bit-enough to wear every last bit of blue off the gun.

Ray,you say the person you saw shooting the elk with the 45/70 was shooting Nosler bullets.This means he was more than likely shooting 300 grain JHPs (I seriously doubt he was shoot 500 grain Partitions out of it),and if they were loaded hot,they were more than likely doing over 2200 FPS.That's about the last load in the world to pick for elk out of a 45/70,and I'm not suprised he had problems.That bullet is designed to expand rapidly on whitetail deer when pushed at around 1800 FPS.

This would be like me saying a 300 Weatherby is no good for elk,because I saw someone shoot one once with a 110 grain HP and it turned into a disaster.

Brian.

Howdy Ray

Phil Shoemaker wrote:



Jayco

Seems none of you African guys can agree on anything but the 45-70 is a POS.











I'll stop for now.

Jayco

BrentD,
Like so many you reach out to make a point by suggesting that I killed elk at 3000 yds. with a 25-35, a feeble attempt at humor but funny all the same and I got a good laugh out of it..but the fact is I have killed a number of elk with the 25-35 carbine, but alas they were never shot at over 100 yards and only a few past 75 yards and all were broadside. True, a 45-70 would work under the same conditions...but neither IMO are elk rifles for the once a year hunter in todays hard elk hunting conditions that will certainly get worse with the advent of the wolf infestation...

All I am saying is if you want to be successful with any degree of regularity in today elk country where you will see perhaps one or two good bulls in a season of hunting then use a caliber that will handle any conditions, thus my choice of a 300 H&H or a 338 Win. I consider the 30-06 with 200 or 220 gr. Nosler my choice of minimum today...

Ray, you are repeating yourself. Definitely not a good sign

I've always had good success in elk country with a .45 if you know how to shoot. You stick with your modern whatevers, I'll stick with my old .45s. They do just fine for me out to 300 easily.

Brent

Brent,
At my age one often repeats himself, not a good sign is right, but it is what it is!

Logcutter,
Those are gun writers, not bear guides, what do they know? they have killed more game with a typewriter than a rifle! just joking for the most part, Craig and Holt have seen the elephant..they also are pimps for ammo manufacturers.

Ray



I live in the same State as you do since birth.I live just minutes from Elk City and am aware of the Wolf and what it has done.My rifle selection has not changed at all.I used my 45-70 in thick timber in the Selway until my son showed up that wanted the Guide Gun.I then went from the new '06 to the 300 Win Mag and never felt under gunned with any of them.

The 45-70 drops 'em on the spot(300 grain Barnes XFN) as does the .300 with 200 Noslers or the 180's are close..You keep bringing up Idaho and Elk hunting..Been doing it here for over 50 years and your 45-70 experiences are far different than mine.

If I were you,I could say the worst one is the 7mm Rem Mag I saw in person take 5 shots on one Elk and 4 on another or the 30-40 Krag took 5 hits on one Bull or in the same braeth,I could say the 22-250 dropped a nice bull as did the 243.

Come on...We know different just like the 45-70..My forum is full of Elk kills from the 45-70.

www.levergunlovers.com

Jayco

Clueless being the operative word. Just for your edification, if yours is the last post on the thread and somebody answers on the empty block below, the post above appears as the recipient. I wasn't directing the post at you or anybody else for that matter. If I adress an inidvidual (as I am you presently) I either post a quote or preface my post with the individual to whom I'm addressing. There, now you're clued in...j-o-r-g-e

Number of Professional Hunters who use the 45/70 as their personal rifle or for back up: ZERO
Number of times Craig Bodddington has hunted Africa ~97
Number of times Craig Boddington has used the 45/70 in Africa for DG; ZERO
Number of times Dick Metcalf has used a 45/70 on Cape Buffalo: unknown
Number of times I've said the 45/70 will not kill a buffalo: Zero


I'll stop for now...jorge

Well jeorge,If you look back you will see there is another post after mine before yours to me.So jeorge,please understand I had know idea, nor did you it appears, the other post would be in between making me think it was directed at me..Owe well heck,who cares...

Now that you have so kindly pointed out your posting habits,I should not make that mistake again,should I?

Now your clued in..J-a-y-c-o

Now that everyone's solidly entrenched in his foxhole and nobody has changed his mind, the slightly wounded appear to have only flesh wounds and will do well. I believe a truce is not only possible but imminent.

Have a good rest of the weekend, a good week, and again, a Happy New Year.

jorge

I just now realized I have been spelling your name wrong..My apologies as it was not intentional.I have been corrected here before for my spelling and thought I was getting better..Owe well..Sorry jorge..Nothing personal..

I will leave you with these 45-70 kills,though.





I'll stop now.

Jayco

Here's one taken with a bow...


And your point is? But feel free to respond to my prior posts about PH's Boddington, etc.

45/70's a lovely cartridge. In fct, Sharpsguy's helping me put an order in to Shiloh-Sharps for one here soon. Totally concur you shold stop now....jorge

jorge...It was JJ Hack that started this crap,not me or the 45-70 guys..He started 2 threads with now like 15 pages to those not signed in in hiding the 458 Win Mag thread where you fellers were not agreeing..His way of starting crap,not mine.I am only here to stick up for the 45-70 to the ones that only put it down..There is common sense then ignorance.

One shot through both shoulders and an exit from the 45-70.



You guys might recognize this guy but it was at 275 yards with a cast bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1650 fps.



2000 pounds and again,one shot through both shoulders put him down and out.



Jayco

So, just to redirect this discussion slightly, whatever happened to that gal on AR that ran the scam raffle to draw a ticket to go to Zim and hunt a buffalo with a .45-70. She ran the drawing, drew her own number and went to Zim on the raffle proceeds and then got sick and never hunted buffalo.

I believe she said she was going to go back, but did she? Whatever came of that?

I think her name as Ann something and, like Ray, she was a travel agent.

Brent

Wow.......I thought SOP was that the person running the raffle never gets to participate,for that very reason.

Even if it wasn't a scam,that looks all sorts of bad.

Brian.

Yeah, it looks bad, but may have been on the up and up given the way the winning number was drawn. However, the deal was you had to actually hunt and shoot a cape buffalo with a .45-70 (someone even gave her the bloody rifle), and she never did so far as I know. At that point, she unequivocally breached the rules of the game. It was an interesting raffle and one where I even lost my own Ben Franklin. That it appears that she never followed through is the part that really bugs me.

Brent

Working in a trauma hospital ER I saw a guy DOA from a GSW inflicted by a .22lr Beretta semi-auto with a short barrel. I also so a guy who was shot in the head with a full-sized 45APC 1911 that lived with no major damage other than to his looks (assuming chicks don't really dig scars).

That little anecdote, like the original post, says absolutely nothing about the merits of either caliber or platform. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero.

Just say'n.....

jorge:

Question: would a .458", 500gr Hornady at 2000 to 2100 fps be regarded as ample for Cape buff in your view? Or, perhaps Boddington's?

Such a load is possible from a Ruger No.1 in .45-70, without any modification, at safe pressure, if 60,000 to 63,500 psi is regarded safe in that rifle. I know, I've done it hundreds of times, and it's been tested for me at a U.S. powder facility.

Does Boddington know everything about everything, because he's been to Africa 97 times and is your friend? Has he tested a .45-70 at that level? So he's never used one in Africa... and that tells you something that the rest of us .45-70 lovers need to know? Maybe it simply tells us that he's NOT the expert on the .45-70 that you may THINK he is! Is that a possibility?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I've read his stuff also... sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. He has admitted in print that he has his biases and prejudices, and they may change with time and experience. He wrote something of that nature recently in regard to a favorite Big Bore that didn't penetrate as well on ele as some smaller stuff.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I think I'm done here as obviously I'm not getting trough and it was never my intention to disparage the cartridge. Quite the opposite.

Logcutter, I don't know but I think I was pretty clear I thought the 45/70 was a good cartridge and I'm even ordering one myself. All I said there are better suited cartridges out there for DG, nothing more.

CZ;I can't much disagree with your post as I disagree on quite a few things with Craig. I also can't dispute the figures you quote out of that Ruger #1 but one thing I Do agree with Craig on is he tried a single shot with DG and he'd never do it again. As far as he being an expert, he might not be but my good friend Sharpsguy is and believe me he is and I learn a lot from him. Lastly, Having said that, I'll ask the same question again; if the 45/70 was such a great DG cartridge(and pictures don't mean a whole lot regarding this discussion, I can post just as many of Fred Bear with his long bow) why didn't it become popular in Africa during the 50s & 60s when all the Brit doubles were dead due to a lack of ammo? Surely that would have been a great time for the 45/70 to fill that void. NOBODY, not a single PH uses it in Africa and I've yet to hear from the 45/70 cultists as to why that is. Regarding penetration that seems to be at the crux of the matter and you answered your own question, the 45/70 only becomes adequate when it breaks 2000 fps and again nobody's addressed the 458WM's issues with poor penetration at below 1900 fps. The 45/70 #1 attains it only when pushed in excess of 2100 and you can't get that out of a lever or a Sharps.



I think I've walked a pretty fair middle ground in this discussion, even admitting I was WRONG about the 45/70, but to say the 45/70 is a DG cartridge on an equal footing with the 458s or other NE calibers is nonsense. jorge

You have sir..I agree also with the last part of your quote and always have.The Ruger #1 is rated at 50,000 CUP while the 458 SAAMI is 53,000 CUP.There is alot you can do with 50,000 CUP compared to 40,000 CUP of the leverguns but I would not want a single shot either and then there is the case capacity difference making the 45-70 less likely to achieve the equal of the 458 with about 14 grains more room in the case than the 45-70 largest capacity brass,Winchester at 80.3.

No problem here jorge..Have a great day.

Jayco

Logcutter,
It is apparant that you are a good hunter, a good shot, and have access to some good hunting in which case I would bet dollars to donuts you could duplicate those same feats with a 30-30..I have with the 25-35 Win.

My only point being that for the average hunter, there are better choices for an expensive hunt where opertunity may come only once in a two week hunt..I also know that in the films I have that if the 45-70 afficiendo had put a couple of more shots into that elk the results would have been different, but he was attempting to prove to the world the 45-70 was the last word in one shot killing power..It isn't.

I will stand positive that a 45-70 isn't a good choice for elephant, Lion, Cape Buffalo or Hippo under any conditions. It is a stunt that could get one killed..Killing any one of these animals can and has been done, no doubt about that, I also know it has been done with a 308, 8x57, 7x57 and 30-06, I have done that myself with those calibers. I know of a young kid that was hunting Impala and stuck a 45 gr. Hornet bullet in a sleeping Cape buffalo bulls ear and killed it. I know of a rogue elephant that was killed with a 44 magnum pistol by Hannes Swanapol from a Helicopter. He also killed a full grown African Lion with that same pistol some years later but had no other option... I agree that about any caliber will kill about anything.

My only point is continued use of some of these questionalbe calibers could very easily come back and bite you in the butt. I have stood several charges by Cape Buffalo and I always had "more than enough gun", and I always wished, at the time, that I had a bigger stick in my hands!

You use your 45-70 properly and it works for you..Not everyone will do that.

ray i cant agree more.

from a professional point of view i can foresee some "technical" problems(liability) as well. when someone comes over here with a 45-70 to hunt dgame and this person gets killed, with no fault to the 45-70. it wont be long before someone is going to try and pin this on the ph for allowing a hunter to hunt dgame with a borderline dgame calibre, even if the calibre has nothing to do with the incident.

i remember this happening in the late 90's with an incident in the Limpopo province where the hunter was killed and his choice was the 375H&H. i remember the case officer asking the ph " why did you allow the hunter to hunt with the minimum allowed calibre why not be responsible and get something bigger?"

ridiculous i know, but such is the the day to day stuff that makes africa fun.

i mention this just to illustrate that in africa, so many things can go wrong. let alone when you hunt dgame. why then not take a calibre that has more power. when your life is at stake rather take the calibre that will do the job rather than the calibre that most probably can do the job.

i say again if someone wants to hunt dgame in africa with the 45-70, then come. you will find ph's that will allow this. and no someone that has shot 5 buffalo is no expert, but he is a good hunter, no disrespect intended.

having said all this i have a small suspicion that we all have been had. i suspect that this thread was started knowing the reactions that will follow. if so, congratulations. after all this is what a forum is all about.

Ray..I don't disagree with that at all in fact,I have repeatedly said that if I was ever to go to Africa,I would choose a more powerful cartridge than the 45-70,and I would.I think if everyone would talk to each other rather down at someone who chooses a certain caliber,we wouldn't have these debated talks that always end up like this one and the author new it would and got what he wanted,I suppose.

I have owned two 30-30's most of my life and shot a fair amount of game with them but the 30-30 is not a modern 45-70 with modern bullets..You say and I agree on deep timber and taking any shot available if you want your Elk these days,especially here in Idaho.

I suffered this year from carrying my 45-70 loaded with 425 grain cast at 1850 fps.Saw alot of Elk and the one shot I had was with a cow a few yards behind the big Bull.I new wherever I hit the big Bull with the 425 grain bullet,the bullet would exit so I passed on a prize..I would however pulled the trigger with my 30-30/8MM Mauser/270 or even my '06 I had loaded with the soft Hornady Interbond but I also would have passed with the .300 Win Mag and 180 or 200 Noslers.

I am confident the 45-70 will penetrate any Bull I run into at any angle if I do my part at a reasonable range.A 300 Barnes XFN did 90% of a spike with an exit expanding..

I wouldn't trade my 45-70 Guide Gun for anything as it is the best timber gun I have ever owned but I wouldn't use it in Africa.Some do and are successful doing so but I would be looking for a .416 on up from what little I know.I never count on anyone backing me up so I try to be prepared the first time.

Good luck to you Ray.I think we agree on way more than we disagree on.

Jayco

According to the Hornady manual A Ruger #1 is capable of 1800 fps with a 500 gr RN or FMJ. While that is no .458 it is certainly a different horse than the old 400 gr factory load of 1200 fps.
Nobody that shoots factory ammo can benefit from that fact though.
As far as hunting with a single shot, my customers have told me that when you fire your PH will follow up your shot so that you are hunting with a single shot no matter what rifle you use.
I had a customer go to Africa and use a .375 on elephant and his buddy had a .458. When they got back they told me that the .458 required about 8 shots to bring down the elephant where the .375 required 2 shots.
I'll go out on a limb and say bullet placement trumps all!
whelennut

That's the bottom line isn't it! Completely agree.

That is not a hard and fast rule and something you & your PH should discuss before the hunt. Now if there is a charge that is an entirely different matter. as to the single shot issue, I'll relate another anectdote. I once saw Thompson Center Shill and Whitetail expert Larry Weishun take a buffalo with a Single Shot TC (PUKE) in 416 Rigby. The bufflo was close, less than 15 yards or so. At the shot the buffalo turned 90 deg and bolted while ol' Larry was trying to effect a reload as fast as he could. I timed it. It took him a full 8.5 seconds to get the second shot off. Had the buffalo turned their way and charged, either Larry would have gotten tossed or the PH would have had to step in and administer the killing shot. More or less a similar scenario to folks thst like to go and hunt DG with bows or whatever. Single shot rifles are neat, I do LOVE my Sharps 45-110 and would like to hunt Cape buffalo with one someday, but with the full knowledge that it is my CHOICE and a "just because" thing. My Rigby with 400gr A Frames is a much better tool. jorge

Actually, the first words out of the mouth of the head ballistician at the powder company (I'll not disclose his name for privacy purposes)which tested my loads in the Ruger was :"You have just reinvented the 458 Winchester Magnum. What was the recoil like?" ...referring to shooting those loads from a very lightweight Ruger No.1.

Hornady's loads for the Ruger No.1 are NOT necesarily 50,000 CUP! In fact compare their loads with Lymans, and you'll see what I mean. Example: 53.1 grs of IMR 3031 behind the 500gr Hor is listed as max by Hornady, implying it attained 50,000 CUP or thereabouts. Lyman lists the identical load at 1742 fps at 32,700 CUP, which corresponds with my internal ballistics computer program. And that 50,000 CUP is not SAAMI, but Hornady's decision based on their own criteria. Speer uses 35,000 CUP and Lyman 40,000, and those are all arbitrary. A rep at Ruger told me personally that they will NOT give a number for the strength of the Ruger No.1 in 45-70. But he assured me that IF I wanted a means by which to judge it, it could be compared to the strength of the Ruger No.1 in 458 Winchester.

I mention this because it's been strongly stated, or inferred, several times in these threads that NO 45-70 compares with a 458WM. That's repeating hearsay.

My point is a simple one: a 45-70 in an action as strong as the Ruger, where a 500gr can be seated to the cannelure, equals the performance of published standard .458WM factory 500 grainers, and exceeds them in real life, when loaded from 60,000 to 63,500 PSI. It does it because the 458WM has a too long throat and has been traditionally UNDERLOADED! With good handloads the 458WM comes into its own today with an easy 2150 to 2200 fps from 500s. Can the Ruger in 45-70 match that? NO. But my long-throated Ruger can, and does. Do I think the Ruger is therefore a best or even "good" rifle for PH's? No. But then, neither do I think a single-shot of any caliber-cartridge is a good bet for a pro!

Would I take mine to hunt DG? YOU BET, in the blink of an eye!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

1. Buy the new Rifle
2. Read the story by the PH who had no doubt killed more big nasties than most of us will SEE Whitetails.

I admit the 9.3x62 surprised me (I own two) but the biggest thing I've shot was an Elk and they generally don't attack, gore and stomp hunters (alas, in some cases)

FWIW,Larry Kelly (of Magna-Port fame) has killed several elephants (including one gigantic old bull)with a 44 Magnum revolver under fair chase hunting conditions.He has also taken cape buffalo,leopard,lion,and grizzly bear with the 44,among others,just FYI.

The 375 JDJ,used by many of the handgun hunting types to kill every species of the Big 5 with relative ease,is the ballistic equivelent of a 375 Winchester rifle.Makes a 45/70 look like a damn cannon in comparison.

99% of it is the nut behind the trigger,rather than the gun/load.A good game shot with a cool head is going to have luck with just about whatever he shoots.

Brian.

A good friend of mine has taken 5 Elepahants 4 with Contenders, 1 with a 45-70 Contender and 3 with the 375 JDJ. He had zero problems

Bob,
I would guess that pressures are held down because they can't be sure what brass cases we are using.
When I was working up loads in 1987 for my Ruger #1 45-70 I used the Lyman #462560 with #2 alloy and sometimes linotype.
A 552 gr Flatnose with a gas check is a lot different than the old soft lead bullets hunters used in the blackpowder days.
There just is no way to lump all 45-70 rifles/cartridges into one category. I also had a Ruger #3 in 45-70 which is just as strong an action but much lighter with a hard buttplate.
This rifle was very accurate and fun to shoot with factory loads however with stiff handloads it moved into another category altogether.
My 35 Whelen is much more pleasant to shoot and I do have some
275 gr Barnes Originals for when a circus tiger escapes.
whelennut

whelennut;

Hey, my son had a #3 and the loads I loaded to 2000+ with the Hornady 500 were shot in his also, with the same results... but I made sure he fired them!!!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca