No Knock-No Announce warrant gets Deputy Sheriff killed. The defense attorney for a man charged with the capital murder of a Burleson County Sheriff's Deputy claims the shooting was in self dense.
28-year-old Henry Magee was arrested last week, accused of opening fire on deputies who were executing a search warrant at his mobile home in Burleson County.
News 3 spoke with Defense Attorney Dick DeGuerin about what his client claims happened.
Now we know what they were looking for.
Henry Magee's attorney says the eight Burleson County Sheriff's Deputies were serving a search warrant for drugs without warning and says his client thought he was shooting a robber breaking in.
Questions still linger on how 31-year-old Deputy Sergeant Investigator Adam Sowders was shot.
drug warrant the man was probably a sum bag anyway , but what if the deputies had the wrong house an an innocent person shot a deputy thinking it was a robbery ? Now that would be um interesting to say the least
Some are prepared to flush drugs at a moments notice.
So what. That should be a clue that it's inappropriate subject matter for making criminal, not that cops need the power to violate folks' constitutional rights.
Some are prepared to flush drugs at a moments notice.
So what. That should be a clue that it's inappropriate subject matter for making criminal, not that cops need the power to violate folks' constitutional rights.
The police had a signed warrant for the residence. No violation of the residents constitutional rights. The courts allow no knocks under certain circumstances. I agree that that procedure makes the entry risky for all parties involved, but your position that the mans 4a rights were violated has no standing.
I think that anywhere that there is some type of castle domain law that announcement of some sort is more appropriate , Is a drug charge more important than a LIFE,
I think that anywhere that there is some type of castle domain law that announcement of some sort is more appropriate , Is a drug charge more important than a LIFE,
NOT
This.
Since when did catching a "suspect" (remember, we're all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty) red-handed trump human life.
If the suspected quantity is small enough to be gotten rid of that easily, is it worth risking a life in a no-knock raid?
I don't see how they could win, but never am surprised by how crazy some folks are. What stops burglars/robbers from yelling "police, search warrant," when they enter. If you came into my house and I didn't see lights flashing outside, there would be guns pointed at you and shots fired if I didn't see a badge in that split second. Never a good time when an officer is killed, but I don't think I could convict on what I've read. There is always more to the story.
Some are prepared to flush drugs at a moments notice.
So what. That should be a clue that it's inappropriate subject matter for making criminal, not that cops need the power to violate folks' constitutional rights.
The police had a signed warrant for the residence. No violation of the residents constitutional rights. The courts allow no knocks under certain circumstances. I agree that that procedure makes the entry risky for all parties involved, but your position that the mans 4a rights were violated has no standing.
All that tells us is that the Supreme Court is complicit in the violation of Constitutional rights, and that they too stand under judgement by the very same Constitution.
drug warrant the man was probably a sum bag anyway , but what if the deputies had the wrong house an an innocent person shot a deputy thinking it was a robbery ? Now that would be um interesting to say the least
If they were at a house not listed on the warrant, then they didn't have a search warrant. Self defense would be entirely appropriate.
Maybe this Sheriff Dept will announce their presents the next time they serve a search warrant for drugs at a trailer. This war on drugs as gotten more people dead than the drugs themself .
I don't see how they could win, but never am surprised by how crazy some folks are. What stops burglars/robbers from yelling "police, search warrant," when they enter. If you came into my house and I didn't see lights flashing outside, there would be guns pointed at you and shots fired if I didn't see a badge in that split second. Never a good time when an officer is killed, but I don't think I could convict on what I've read. There is always more to the story.
Which is precisely the idea behind the framers requiring a warrant, which is a right belonging to the suspect. That means forced entry constitutes a rights violation unless there's a legitimate opportunity to inspect said warrant prior to the cops' power to enter being activated, i.e., because otherwise absent that the homeowner possesses the right to repel with whatever force is necessary, which predictably results in death on one side or the other.
drug warrant the man was probably a sum bag anyway , but what if the deputies had the wrong house an an innocent person shot a deputy thinking it was a robbery ? Now that would be um interesting to say the least
If they were at a house not listed on the warrant, then they didn't have a search warrant. Self defense would be entirely appropriate.
ok agreed lets me ask this a different way what if a warrant was issued to wrong house or nothing wasa found in house that warrant was issued to ??
just wait until they are knocking at the door to confiscate your suddenly illegal 30 round magazines. Hate to read about anyone, cops or the alleged criminal getting killed, but this sort of stuff was bound to happen, and will happen more and more in the future. Cops feel like they just gotta knock down doors, and half the Country is armed now.
Someone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night, Cop or not deserves to be shot.
I could not agree more strongly. TRH makes an excellent point about the homeowner's rights being violated unless he is allowed to see the warrant first.
Bastard that came up with the warrant should have lead the raid. There are very few times a no knock warrant should be allowed. As for pot being a drug, just go watch old movies again. Two families lives ruined. And we cannot take any of it back.
Bastard that came up with the warrant should have lead the raid. There are very few times a no knock warrant should be allowed. As for pot being a drug, just go watch old movies again. Two families lives ruined. And we cannot take any of it back.
Pot did not cause this death, and unannounced raid caused this death. Pot was a minor actor in this incident.
Bastard that came up with the warrant should have lead the raid. There are very few times a no knock warrant should be allowed. - - Two families lives ruined. And we cannot take any of it back.
Consider that !!
It is terrible to have a LEO hurt or killed while doing duty, but there are right and wrong ways to do duty. If life is a "number is up" game, doing stupid things will get you a low number.
I don't see how they could win, but never am surprised by how crazy some folks are. What stops burglars/robbers from yelling "police, search warrant," when they enter. If you came into my house and I didn't see lights flashing outside, there would be guns pointed at you and shots fired if I didn't see a badge in that split second. Never a good time when an officer is killed, but I don't think I could convict on what I've read. There is always more to the story.
Which is precisely the idea behind the framers requiring a warrant, which is a right belonging to the suspect. That means forced entry constitutes a rights violation unless there's a legitimate opportunity to inspect said warrant prior to the cops' power to enter being activated, i.e., because otherwise absent that the homeowner possesses the right to repel with whatever force is necessary, which predictably results in death on one side or the other.
Gotta agree with TRH on this one. The fact that the courts have allowed this activity to become common does not make it any less a violation of what is right and what is just - not to mention unwise.
The requirement to get a no-knock warrant should be extreme. Think hostage situation.
They should also, because of the above, be very, very rare.
IMO, the "war on drugs" has had the unintended consequence of the militarization of the police.
No. It is absolutely intended. These incidents provide plenty of propaganda for those who profit from this war on drugs/terror citizens. They will never give up the untold billions that are pumped into this [bleep] abomination.
No knock, no announce, breaking in...copper killed himself.
Exactly...
LEO here is quick to say that "stupid gets you killed" regarding speeders and reckless drivers being shot.
The same applies to cops doing stupid no knock break-ins.
I'm not the least bit happy an officer died doing what he was told was his duty. It's tragic! The dipshidt that made the whole thing happen should be jailed for negligent homicide. Higher ups need to be held accountable, and not just by slaps on the wrist or reprimands. Stupidity ending in death is criminal.
About 3 years ago the state police were executing a warrant. The home owner woke up and heard someone at the door so he armed himself with a shotgun. One of the troopers shined a light in and saw the home owner and started yelling he's got a gun! For some reason the young man didn't shoot. Good thing. The troopers were at the wrong address and the home owner is an honest citizen. I don't bash LE but IMO kick in the door at the wrong address it's not the home owner's fault if they shoot.
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
Iowa has an absolute ban on No Knock Warrants. About 30 years ago a young Officer went into a home on a No Knock and it got him killed and the offender went to jail for Involuntary Manslaughter and did less than 5 years.
If you send a guy to the door looking like a Jehovah Witness someone will be at the door in seconds to run him off, then you make your move. kwg
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
Exactly. "First they came for the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic......."
Someone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night, Cop or not deserves to be shot.
I could not agree more strongly. TRH makes an excellent point about the homeowner's rights being violated unless he is allowed to see the warrant first.
I think that anywhere that there is some type of castle domain law that announcement of some sort is more appropriate , Is a drug charge more important than a LIFE,
NOT
This.
Since when did catching a "suspect" (remember, we're all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty) red-handed trump human life.
If the suspected quantity is small enough to be gotten rid of that easily, is it worth risking a life in a no-knock raid?
^
And pay no less than 8 municipal employees to execute.
I had no sympathy for ASAC Schrader when he met his end.
We got shot at a lot doing hard entries back in the '90's. I am confident that most of the shooters thought they were getting robbed. I don't like serving no-knock warrants at all, but they have their place.
No knocks should be limited to kid napping, hostage situations and terrorists where there is hard evidence that they might take the LEO's with them to meet Allah.
No knocks should never be used for drugs of any type, in any type of situation. If they flush it, it wasn't that much and wasn't worth the potential loss of life.
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
If that really were true, there would be one less dead deputy.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
If that really were true, there would be one less dead deputy.
Nothing is a certainty in life. I don't like NK warrants. And have served a total of one of them. Contrary to belief they are pretty difficult to obtain, atleast in our area
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
G12 he legally owned 4 firearms, so he couldn't have been a felon.
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
I didn't read anything about him being a felon. I did read this:
Police recovered the semiautomatic assault rifle allegedly used to kill Sowders and several other guns the defense attorney says were legally owned.
His atty is a really sharp guy. I'm sure he knows a felon is not allowed to own firearms.
Hell, it's a trailer. Drop a screen in the plumbing clean out, if you're worried about losing some buds, announce the warrant on a loudspeaker, if Bubba don't come out, then pop a couple CS cartridges through the window.
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
G12 he legally owned 4 firearms, so he couldn't have been a felon.
From the article.
Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door, DeGuerin said, adding that Magee -- who has a felony and misdemeanor drug conviction -- believed the man rushing in was an intruder and he needed to defend himself.
Police recovered the semiautomatic assault rifle allegedly used to kill Sowders and several other guns the defense attorney says were legally owned.
His atty is a really sharp guy. I'm sure he knows a felon is not allowed to own firearms.
He is a convicted felon and the warrant was for weed and stolen guns. That attorney may be smart, but it doesn't make him honest. Just more reason the guys should have just caught the crook outside and then searched the house. I'm sure it wasn't his call though. Hopefully somebody will learn from this.
Ya know Pat speakingnof Lawyers, i've always found it funny that people Like TRH bitch and whine about the police taking away their rights, ywt they are too stupid to understand that The majority of law makers are lawyers. Yet they trust those same lawyers to have their best interests and rights at heart when they hire them.
With the technology available these days, I see little point in a "no-knock" warrant. A simple GPS placement on the car could have alerted the authorities when the suspect had left the home. Enter the home and seize the evidence at that time, if you're worried about it being flushed. Have other officers down the road to apprehend the suspect.
Short of this guy being a murderer or a kidnapper, exactly what else justifies a military-style raid??? I'd hardly consider drugs/pot an "immediate" threat to public safety.
With the technology available these days, I see little point in a "no-knock" warrant. A simple GPS placement on the car could have alerted the authorities when the suspect had left the home. Enter the home and seize the evidence at that time, if you're worried about it being flushed. Have other officers down the road to apprehend the suspect.
Short of this guy being a murderer or a kidnapper, exactly what else justifies a military-style raid??? I'd hardly consider drugs/pot an "immediate" threat to public safety.
No but the stolen guns damn well should be considered an immediate threat to public safety
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
If you are gonna quote my post get it all in there not just your choosen area
With the technology available these days, I see little point in a "no-knock" warrant. A simple GPS placement on the car could have alerted the authorities when the suspect had left the home. Enter the home and seize the evidence at that time, if you're worried about it being flushed. Have other officers down the road to apprehend the suspect.
Short of this guy being a murderer or a kidnapper, exactly what else justifies a military-style raid??? I'd hardly consider drugs/pot an "immediate" threat to public safety.
No but the stolen guns damn well should be considered an immediate threat to public safety
No but the stolen guns damn well should be considered an immediate threat to public safety
Then just catch the crook outside and search the house afterward.
I agree, i'm not a fan of no knocks. But like Pat says they have their place.
Lets take this same situation in what is probably a closely confined trailer court. Now place the cops outside wIting for him to exit, suppose he is armed and a gunfight erupts. Do you think house trailer walls are going to stop many bullets?
IF [big if] DeGuerin stays on the case, the guy will walk.
The Waco deal really soured him on Law Enforcement.
Which makes him part of a VERY large group.
If the guy didn't know they were cops, he should walk on the murder charge. That doesn't mean this particular officer did anything wrong, that this attorney is a good guy or that the shooter still doesn't deserve to be in prison.
Lets take this same situation in what is probably a closely confined trailer court. Now place the cops outside wIting for him to exit, suppose he is armed and a gunfight erupts. Do you think house trailer walls are going to stop many bullets?
Here's where we differ, no doubt because I'm old and washed up. There is no amount of dope worth getting a good guy killed over and he ain't gonna flush a bunch of guns.
With the technology available these days, I see little point in a "no-knock" warrant. A simple GPS placement on the car could have alerted the authorities when the suspect had left the home. Enter the home and seize the evidence at that time, if you're worried about it being flushed. Have other officers down the road to apprehend the suspect.
Short of this guy being a murderer or a kidnapper, exactly what else justifies a military-style raid??? I'd hardly consider drugs/pot an "immediate" threat to public safety.
No but the stolen guns damn well should be considered an immediate threat to public safety
Sorry, but I didn't see the bit about stolen weapons. Seems like even MORE of a reason not to enter the home. Get the guy when he's down the road or at least outside of the house.
We had two local officer killed a few years back, who would likely. Be alive today had a no knock been issued. The suspect was known to threaten people and on more than one occasion and threatened police with firearms. He watched them drive up his drive way and gunned them down when they got out of the car. I can still hear Chris's voice over his radio pleading for his life before he was shot in the head. Its quite likely that had a no knock been served at 4 in the morning when the suspect and his homies were passed out drunk and High that two wives would have their husbands and children would still have their fathers.
Sorta in the camp that thinks 'no knocks' are a screwed up way to do legal bidness.
A LEO can knock on my door and announce a warrant and I'll stand back and let them rummage around. Crash my door w/o identification and he'll be takin' fire pronto. The debate about who was right will occur later.
We had two local officer killed a few years back, who would likely. Be alive today had a no knock been issued. The suspect was known to threaten people and on more than one occasion and threatened police with firearms. He watched them drive up his drive way and gunned them down when they got out of the car. I can still hear Chris's voice over his radio pleading for his life before he was shot in the head. Its quite likely that had a no knock been served at 4 in the morning when the suspect and his homies were passed out drunk and High that two wives would have their husbands and children would still have their fathers.
The judge that issued this "no knock" for a [bleep] pot plant, deserves to be shot in the face.
I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants
G12 he legally owned 4 firearms, so he couldn't have been a felon.
From the article.
Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door, DeGuerin said, adding that Magee -- who has a felony and misdemeanor drug conviction -- believed the man rushing in was an intruder and he needed to defend himself.
I'm betting he did not own the firearms
Article specifically says he owned a pistol. I suspect he had a felon arrest, but no conviction, and the reporter just did get all his fact correct.
We had two local officer killed a few years back, who would likely. Be alive today had a no knock been issued. The suspect was known to threaten people and on more than one occasion and threatened police with firearms. He watched them drive up his drive way and gunned them down when they got out of the car. I can still hear Chris's voice over his radio pleading for his life before he was shot in the head. Its quite likely that had a no knock been served at 4 in the morning when the suspect and his homies were passed out drunk and High that two wives would have their husbands and children would still have their fathers.
Sorry to hear that. What was the warrant for?
If i remember right. They had a search warrant for manufacturing of Meth. And a few others including some domestic relations stuff
For what it's worth, one of our officers was killed by a woman shooting through a door. The officers announced themselves, thinking it was a low risk warrant. She just didn't believe they were cops.
I've found four different articles and NONE of them states that the guns were stolen. He's definately guilty till proven innocent.
You'll have to clear that up with Pat. Regardless. felons can't legally own firearms.
Exactly, the guy had a .308 semi-auto rifle by his bed when he knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was not legally allowed to possess any firearms. When are people going to understand that laws are only for honest people who choose to obey them. A criminal doesn't care about laws.
I don't see how this hi-profile lawyer thinks he's got a case with this criminal!!?? Here is a statement from one of the articles;
Quote
Police recovered the semiautomatic assault rifle allegedly used to kill Sowders and several other guns the defense attorney says were legally owned.
Yes, those weapons were probably legally owned by someone and not stolen as some informant claimed to the police. However a felon had NO right to have any firearms in his possession/presence. The high powered defense attorney seems to be quite confused.
I've found four different articles and NONE of them states that the guns were stolen. He's definately guilty till proven innocent.
You'll have to clear that up with Pat. Regardless. felons can't legally own firearms.
Exactly, the guy had a .308 semi-auto rifle by his bed when he knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was not legally allowed to possess any firearms. When are people going to understand that laws are only for honest people who choose to obey them. A criminal doesn't care about laws.
I don't see how this hi-profile lawyer thinks he's got a case with this criminal!!?? Here is a statement from one of the articles;
Quote
Police recovered the semiautomatic assault rifle allegedly used to kill Sowders and several other guns the defense attorney says were legally owned.
Yes, those weapons were probably legally owned by someone and not stolen as some informant claimed to the police. However a felon had NO right to have any firearms in his possession/presence. The high powered defense attorney seems to be quite confused.
I'll put money on the guns being legally owned by the defendants girlfriend.
I don't have anything to prove to you. Take my word or look it up yourself.
Oh yea, I'm all over taking your word for something.
I won't forget about this, I'll stay on top of it and when it comes out that none of the guns were stolen I'll [bleep] with you some more.
Why?
Because to you the police are always right and us lowly citizens are just pieces of schit. I try my best to be as lawful and honest as possible, but folks are getting fed the [bleep] up with what is becoming a police state.
From the second article linked: "According to the affidavit for the warrant, Sowders received information from an investigator that Magee was growing marijuana and possibly had stolen guns, as well as other drugs inside his home.
Officials have not released information about what was discovered inside Magee's trailer, but DeGuerin said a few marijuana plants were the only illegal items in the home. While Magee did have four guns inside his home -- a .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle, the weapon Magee shot Sowders with; a .223-caliber rifle discovered locked up in a safe, along with a shotgun given to him by his grandfather; and a handgun that belonged to his mother found in the kitchen -- they were all legal, DeGuerin said.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
However, DeGuerin said his client "had no idea it was a deputy sheriff" when he shot him.
Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."
Just highlighted a few of the more relevant (IMO) portions. There is one mistake here - "an affadavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting...". Unless the deceased also lived in a trailer and the Texas Rangers wanted to search his domicile for some reason.
What I'm wondering about, and I'm not trying to be snide, is with 8 officers on the raid why was Magee not shot multiple times after firing on and hitting Sowder? I guess I can understand that when a .308 semi-auto is going off at close range they might have retreated rapidly but I thought the idea of dynamic entries was to overwhelm anybody inside by overpowering numbers.
The article also states that Magee heard explosions outside the window and loud pounding on the door, then "Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door".
If it was a "no knock" why were they pounding on the door? And then why did it take "moments" for the deputy to enter - realizing that "moments" could be anything from a few to several seconds. Obviously though, it was long enough for Magee, who was sleeping in the living room, to grab his rifle that was leaning against a bedroom door.
Lots of things here aren't making sense. Based on the info in the article the no knock wasn't a no knock or if it was someone really screwed it up.
I don't have anything to prove to you. Take my word or look it up yourself.
Oh yea, I'm all over taking your word for something.
I won't forget about this, I'll stay on top of it and when it comes out that none of the guns were stolen I'll [bleep] with you some more.
Is that what you tell the judge about the people you arrest, . . . . ."Your Honor, just take my word for it"
These discussions generally get heated and this one has remained pretty congenial, despite the inflammatory nature of the topic. Pat has been around a long time and is well-respected here. I don't agree with him all the time, but he knows what he is talking about and is not wont to say stuff that has a good possibility of being wrong. You've been here what, a year? It's easy enough to disagree and if you can prove Pat wrong, go for it. Seems like a counter-productive move to announce you're going to eff with him over essentially nothing though.
From the second article linked: "According to the affidavit for the warrant, Sowders received information from an investigator that Magee was growing marijuana and possibly had stolen guns, as well as other drugs inside his home.
Officials have not released information about what was discovered inside Magee's trailer, but DeGuerin said a few marijuana plants were the only illegal items in the home. While Magee did have four guns inside his home -- a .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle, the weapon Magee shot Sowders with; a .223-caliber rifle discovered locked up in a safe, along with a shotgun given to him by his grandfather; and a handgun that belonged to his mother found in the kitchen -- they were all legal, DeGuerin said.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
However, DeGuerin said his client "had no idea it was a deputy sheriff" when he shot him.
Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."
Just highlighted a few of the more relevant (IMO) portions. There is one mistake here - "an affadavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting...". Unless the deceased also lived in a trailer and the Texas Rangers wanted to search his domicile for some reason.
What I'm wondering about, and I'm not trying to be snide, is with 8 officers on the raid why was Magee not shot multiple times after firing on and hitting Sowder? I guess I can understand that when a .308 semi-auto is going off at close range they might have retreated rapidly but I thought the idea of dynamic entries was to overwhelm anybody inside by overpowering numbers.
The article also states that Magee heard explosions outside the window and loud pounding on the door, then "Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door".
If it was a "no knock" why were they pounding on the door? And then why did it take "moments" for the deputy to enter - realizing that "moments" could be anything from a few to several seconds. Obviously though, it was long enough for Magee, who was sleeping in the living room, to grab his rifle that was leaning against a bedroom door.
Lots of things here aren't making sense. Based on the info in the article the no knock wasn't a no knock or if it was someone really screwed it up.
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thimks there is more that needs reported.
However Inam interested in the rest of this statement
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
It states, just as Pat originally stated that the warrant was issued for nRcotics and possible stolen guns.
Pull your head from
your azz and you would be able to read better
The Lt stated that the guns WERE STOLEN. . . . .the affadavit stated the informant said "possibly stolen guns". . . . .that's a hell of a difference. The police should certainly know the difference. Pull your head out of your ass.
From the second article linked: "According to the affidavit for the warrant, Sowders received information from an investigator that Magee was growing marijuana and possibly had stolen guns, as well as other drugs inside his home.
Officials have not released information about what was discovered inside Magee's trailer, but DeGuerin said a few marijuana plants were the only illegal items in the home. While Magee did have four guns inside his home -- a .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle, the weapon Magee shot Sowders with; a .223-caliber rifle discovered locked up in a safe, along with a shotgun given to him by his grandfather; and a handgun that belonged to his mother found in the kitchen -- they were all legal, DeGuerin said.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
However, DeGuerin said his client "had no idea it was a deputy sheriff" when he shot him.
Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."
Just highlighted a few of the more relevant (IMO) portions. There is one mistake here - "an affadavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting...". Unless the deceased also lived in a trailer and the Texas Rangers wanted to search his domicile for some reason.
What I'm wondering about, and I'm not trying to be snide, is with 8 officers on the raid why was Magee not shot multiple times after firing on and hitting Sowder? I guess I can understand that when a .308 semi-auto is going off at close range they might have retreated rapidly but I thought the idea of dynamic entries was to overwhelm anybody inside by overpowering numbers.
The article also states that Magee heard explosions outside the window and loud pounding on the door, then "Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door".
If it was a "no knock" why were they pounding on the door? And then why did it take "moments" for the deputy to enter - realizing that "moments" could be anything from a few to several seconds. Obviously though, it was long enough for Magee, who was sleeping in the living room, to grab his rifle that was leaning against a bedroom door.
Lots of things here aren't making sense. Based on the info in the article the no knock wasn't a no knock or if it was someone really screwed it up.
Well, you've got what really happens, but what you rely on are multiple opinions some of which may be intentionally slanted, others just effed up. Then you have the media's interpretation of these opinions which experience says WILL be effed up. There it is.
Police recovered the semiautomatic assault rifle allegedly used to kill Sowders and several other guns the defense attorney says were legally owned.
His atty is a really sharp guy. I'm sure he knows a felon is not allowed to own firearms.
He is a convicted felon and the warrant was for weed and stolen guns. That attorney may be smart, but it doesn't make him honest. Just more reason the guys should have just caught the crook outside and then searched the house. I'm sure it wasn't his call though. Hopefully somebody will learn from this.
This was Pats post. Again. With the head in azz removal
It states, just as Pat originally stated that the warrant was issued for nRcotics and possible stolen guns.
Pull your head from
your azz and you would be able to read better
The Lt stated that the guns WERE STOLEN. . . . .the affadavit stated the informant said "possibly stolen guns". . . . .that's a hell of a difference. The police should certainly know the difference. Pull your head out of your ass.
I may be wrong due to ham and turkey overdose but I did read the whole article and it seems like Pat said the guns were probably NOT stolen but that a CI had claimed they were and that was what was on the warrant. Maybe somebody else stated that.
From the second article linked: "According to the affidavit for the warrant, Sowders received information from an investigator that Magee was growing marijuana and possibly had stolen guns, as well as other drugs inside his home.
Officials have not released information about what was discovered inside Magee's trailer, but DeGuerin said a few marijuana plants were the only illegal items in the home. While Magee did have four guns inside his home -- a .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle, the weapon Magee shot Sowders with; a .223-caliber rifle discovered locked up in a safe, along with a shotgun given to him by his grandfather; and a handgun that belonged to his mother found in the kitchen -- they were all legal, DeGuerin said.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
However, DeGuerin said his client "had no idea it was a deputy sheriff" when he shot him.
Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."
Just highlighted a few of the more relevant (IMO) portions. There is one mistake here - "an affadavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting...". Unless the deceased also lived in a trailer and the Texas Rangers wanted to search his domicile for some reason.
What I'm wondering about, and I'm not trying to be snide, is with 8 officers on the raid why was Magee not shot multiple times after firing on and hitting Sowder? I guess I can understand that when a .308 semi-auto is going off at close range they might have retreated rapidly but I thought the idea of dynamic entries was to overwhelm anybody inside by overpowering numbers.
The article also states that Magee heard explosions outside the window and loud pounding on the door, then "Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door".
If it was a "no knock" why were they pounding on the door? And then why did it take "moments" for the deputy to enter - realizing that "moments" could be anything from a few to several seconds. Obviously though, it was long enough for Magee, who was sleeping in the living room, to grab his rifle that was leaning against a bedroom door.
Lots of things here aren't making sense. Based on the info in the article the no knock wasn't a no knock or if it was someone really screwed it up.
All good points. I don't reckon I've ever heard a defense attorney say "Well, yeah he hired me and I'm gonna defend him, but I really think he did it.".
From the second article linked: "According to the affidavit for the warrant, Sowders received information from an investigator that Magee was growing marijuana and possibly had stolen guns, as well as other drugs inside his home.
Officials have not released information about what was discovered inside Magee's trailer, but DeGuerin said a few marijuana plants were the only illegal items in the home. While Magee did have four guns inside his home -- a .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle, the weapon Magee shot Sowders with; a .223-caliber rifle discovered locked up in a safe, along with a shotgun given to him by his grandfather; and a handgun that belonged to his mother found in the kitchen -- they were all legal, DeGuerin said.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
However, DeGuerin said his client "had no idea it was a deputy sheriff" when he shot him.
Sowders applied for the search warrant after consulting with the district attorney's office, according to the original affidavit, which included a request from Sowders to enter the home "without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers."
The request was made based on information that Magee had weapons inside that, according to an investigator's source, he was not afraid to use, according to the affidavit, which stated he had an aggressive dog, as well."
Just highlighted a few of the more relevant (IMO) portions. There is one mistake here - "an affadavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting...". Unless the deceased also lived in a trailer and the Texas Rangers wanted to search his domicile for some reason.
What I'm wondering about, and I'm not trying to be snide, is with 8 officers on the raid why was Magee not shot multiple times after firing on and hitting Sowder? I guess I can understand that when a .308 semi-auto is going off at close range they might have retreated rapidly but I thought the idea of dynamic entries was to overwhelm anybody inside by overpowering numbers.
The article also states that Magee heard explosions outside the window and loud pounding on the door, then "Moments later, Magee saw a person whom he said he couldn't identify in the dark burst through his door".
If it was a "no knock" why were they pounding on the door? And then why did it take "moments" for the deputy to enter - realizing that "moments" could be anything from a few to several seconds. Obviously though, it was long enough for Magee, who was sleeping in the living room, to grab his rifle that was leaning against a bedroom door.
Lots of things here aren't making sense. Based on the info in the article the no knock wasn't a no knock or if it was someone really screwed it up.
I'm glad i'm not the only one who thimks there is more that needs reported.
However Inam interested in the rest of this statement
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
Actually it would probably be better if LESS was reported. "More" being reported in my mind generally equates with the media making [bleep] up to fill out their "stories". The key word being "stories". News "stories". Get it?
Ok I quit. . . . .I've only been here a year and my points are not valid.
If your points are valid it doesn't matter whether you've been here only a day. It's the validation that gets difficult. Sounds like this is a screwed up affair and a guy is dead and wife widowed, kids half-orphaned. Bad thing all the way around and one reason I'm not an LEO.
Ok I quit. . . . .I've only been here a year and my points are not valid.
I read what few points you made (Police are always right and citizens are all pieces of "[bleep]".), and they are not valid. Arguing for the sake of argument and spouting weak talking points will never get you anywhere around here. Don't quit so easy.
drug warrant the man was probably a sum bag anyway , but what if the deputies had the wrong house an an innocent person shot a deputy thinking it was a robbery ? Now that would be um interesting to say the least
The Drug warriors are the scum, anti Liberty idiots like you and them have destroyed America.
drug warrant the man was probably a sum bag anyway , but what if the deputies had the wrong house an an innocent person shot a deputy thinking it was a robbery ? Now that would be um interesting to say the least
The Drug warriors are the scum, anti Liberty idiots like you and them have destroyed America.
I'll put money on the guns being legally owned by the defendants girlfriend.
A bet I'd not take.
I was reflecting back on a thought you had shared about over-penetration in a trailer dwelling shooting situation.
Considering he was using a .308 rifle at close range........ah the hell with the ballistics question I had.....it's certainly an unfortunate situation that another human life was lost in the "war on drugs".
At the very end of this video is a statement by the speaker(LEO) that aptly covers the "no-knock"/going to someone's door activity.
It would appear that the only 'facts' that we know are that one young officer is dead, and we know who shot him.
We all know that what gets printed in the "news" is rarely fact at all. Sad deal all around for the deputy and his family. Sad that it probably wasn't necessary.
Mirage243, getting in a pissing match over semantics won't help with your credibility. Pat and gitem, as well as others here are probably the same men you would want if you were to be callin the popo yourself. There are a few LEO here you probably wouldn't want, but you will have to give it some time, you'll figure out who they are too.
No knocks sure seem to be a good way to get some one killed. Innocent, guilty, law enforcement, bystanders. Bullets leave barrels with no conscience of their own.
It states, just as Pat originally stated that the warrant was issued for nRcotics and possible stolen guns.
Pull your head from
your azz and you would be able to read better
The Lt stated that the guns WERE STOLEN. . . . .the affadavit stated the informant said "possibly stolen guns". . . . .that's a hell of a difference. The police should certainly know the difference. Pull your head out of your ass.
I don't have anything to prove to you. Take my word or look it up yourself.
Oh yea, I'm all over taking your word for something.
I won't forget about this, I'll stay on top of it and when it comes out that none of the guns were stolen I'll [bleep] with you some more.
Why?
Because to you the police are always right and us lowly citizens are just pieces of schit. I try my best to be as lawful and honest as possible, but folks are getting fed the [bleep] up with what is becoming a police state.
No, you are the piece of [bleep]. That doesn't equate to all people. Savvy that one [bleep]?
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
One thing that concerns me is when someone posts as above "He was probably a scumbag anyway..." Constitutional rights are not parcelled out according to someone's subjective judgement of that person's merit- We either all have rights, of none of us have them, eventually. The so called war on drugs has been used to erode all of our rights with this mentality, because at first, no one cared if the cops ran rough shod over the druggies and the "hippies" and whatever other buzz words were currently popular. Hitler used the same mentality. Sorry for the rant but I was brainwashed at an early age to rever the constituion- And I still do.
but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
It's a night/day comparison between hunting deer and someone bustin' yer door down in the middle of the night..
Personally, I have ZERO expectation of any visitors at this place after dark; but when that very rare event occurs I answer that door very cautiously AND with one hand on the door and the other's graspin' a Kimber..
I know for a FACT that no deer's gonna be knockin' on my door...
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
... The cops had options, they failed to use them, and a young man died, his superiors should be questioned.
That was my point. Young cops drive too fast, get emotional too easy and like excitement. It is a supervisors job to see that they keep their jobs, their lives and the public intact along the way. There are way too many unavoidable, legitimate ways to get hurt without taking unnecessary risks.
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
You continue to build straw men.
Please tell that to the father who just killed his 14 year old daughter thinking she was an intruder. I'm sure he still agrees with the shoot first before identifying a threat motto
Tactical teams do not initiate the operations they conduct. The INVESTIGATORS take the affadavits and write up the warrant applications. A JUDGE is supposed to carefully read the application and issue warrant or not with or without conditions based on the PC affadavits and investigation summaries. The warrant, when issued is given back to the defectives and they notify the tac team and THEY conduct the briefing. The teas are acting on a long line of procedures,nothing more,nothing less. If there is to be a responsibilty for the validity of the warrant,correct addresses,etc it lays on the investigator(s) who lead the investigation. If the guy WAS a convicted felon without certificate of relief, even picking up the gun,regardless of who actually owned it, was a crime by itself. As Gitem noted, making target identification is paramount. Quite a few trigger happy idiots have managed to kill family members because they shot first and asked questions later.
So maybe you will answer the question I asked G12:
If a homeowner waits until an intruder is inside the house to pick up a weapon, the BG kills him.
If he picks up a weapon and waits to see who is breaking in, and it's the cops, they kill him.
So............... what should THIS particular guy have done?
Like the homeowners who killed family members by their triggerhappy stupidity, identify your target. If ANYONE is picking up a weapon and is standing in the clear not concealed or covered, they'd likely get killed regardless, Stupid move to be in the open.
So maybe you will answer the question I asked G12:
If a homeowner waits until an intruder is inside the house to pick up a weapon, the BG kills him.
If he picks up a weapon and waits to see who is breaking in, and it's the cops, they kill him.
So............... what should THIS particular guy have done?
Not hang out with snitches? There are only three reasons people give information to the cops...money, revenge or leniency. Any criminal associating with these types should expect the police to be coming through their door.
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
Yep case closed. Right,
Regular Photo Size SHARETHIS
Posted: 12/23/2013 Last Updated: 3 days ago
Phil Tenser | Email Me COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - A Colorado Springs man shot and killed someone he believed to be a burglar Monday morning, but police discovered it was really his teenage stepdaughter.
Colorado Springs Police say that the case began around 5:57 a.m. when they were called to a report of a burglary in progress in the 4300 block of Ascendant Dr., in the northeast part of the city. There, they found the 14-year-old girl had been shot.
"It has been determined that the victim's stepfather is the individual who shot the firearm, striking the victim who was a resident of the involved home," police wrote in a press release.
The girl was taken to a hospital, but died as a result of her injuries.
The case is being investigated by CSPD's Violent Crimes Unit, but police say there is no apparent danger to the public.
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
That's a fact, unless the intruder is identfied as a LEO prior to the shooting.
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
It's not "case closed" if the shooter was a convicted felon or if they found what they were looking for. The convicted felon part seems up in the air. If he turns out to have been a convicted felon and he shot a cop he'll never see daylight again. If he was engaged in criminal activity he will do serious time. If he just shot the Deputy in self-defense with no complicating issues he's in jeopardy of Manslaughter. I don't agree with the last unless he could reasonably have been expected to ID his target as a Deputy legally coming into his house. The former two are cut-and-dried despite the guy's lawyer's assertions.
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
Yep case closed. Right,
Regular Photo Size SHARETHIS
Posted: 12/23/2013 Last Updated: 3 days ago
Phil Tenser | Email Me COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - A Colorado Springs man shot and killed someone he believed to be a burglar Monday morning, but police discovered it was really his teenage stepdaughter.
Colorado Springs Police say that the case began around 5:57 a.m. when they were called to a report of a burglary in progress in the 4300 block of Ascendant Dr., in the northeast part of the city. There, they found the 14-year-old girl had been shot.
"It has been determined that the victim's stepfather is the individual who shot the firearm, striking the victim who was a resident of the involved home," police wrote in a press release.
The girl was taken to a hospital, but died as a result of her injuries.
The case is being investigated by CSPD's Violent Crimes Unit, but police say there is no apparent danger to the public.
It's not a straw man? Then you're saying that the guy's daughter was the deputy?
If you're going in unannounced your "title" is meaningless.. If you get shot, so be it. One Man broke into another Man's home and was killed in self defense. Case closed.
You're exacty right Mark, and it would be unimaginable that any LE entry would be "unannounced". Announcing and ramming the door immediately is the norm for an entry of this type.
You're exacty right Mark, and it would be unimaginable that any LE entry would be "unannounced". Announcing and ramming the door immediately is the norm for an entry of this type.
Precisely what home invading robbers would do to give themselves the advantage of creating uncertainty in the mind of their intended victims. Thus the purpose for guaranteeing the right of warrant service prior to the activation of the power of forced entry by armed agents of state. Warrants aren't legitimately served absent a reasonable opportunity to inspect and verify the legitimacy of the document. Absent that, the warrant cannot serve it's intended purpose of informing the homeowner that those seeking entry aren't mere brigands requiring forceful repulsion.
I think that anywhere that there is some type of castle domain law that announcement of some sort is more appropriate , Is a drug charge more important than a LIFE,
NOT
This.
Since when did catching a "suspect" (remember, we're all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty) red-handed trump human life.
If the suspected quantity is small enough to be gotten rid of that easily, is it worth risking a life in a no-knock raid?
You're exacty right Mark, and it would be unimaginable that any LE entry would be "unannounced". Announcing and ramming the door immediately is the norm for an entry of this type.
Precisely what home invading robbers would do to give themselves the advantage of creating uncertainty in the mind of their intended victims. Thus the purpose for guaranteeing the right of warrant service prior to the activation of the power of forced entry by armed agents of state.
Well, that's kinda what I'm sayin'. Run the [bleep] off the road into a tree, then go back and search the crib.
The cops had time to think this plan through, they thought is was a good idea, it was not.
There was no threat at the time of this assault, very poor planning by all involved, the intended perp had time to grab a rifle and use it, why?
That's a good question.
According to the News articles this was a NO-KNOCK warrant. If these officers were to perform a NK, why did this happen?
Quote
when they were awakened by "explosives" going off near the front windows and loud pounding on the front door.
Why the pounding? Were they "knocking" or were they trying to break it down and failed on several attempts. If they failed to knock it down on the first attempt, they pretty much BLEW the NK scenario donchas think?
Also, why the "Explosives" going off? What were this explosives? Were they some sort of device to disorient and blind this guy? If so, how could he know they were LEO?
Sounds like these officers gave him plenty of time to "react" and to fear for his life as they did not identify themselves after he knew they were attempting entry.
You're exacty right Mark, and it would be unimaginable that any LE entry would be "unannounced". Announcing and ramming the door immediately is the norm for an entry of this type.
Precisely what home invading robbers would do to give themselves the advantage of creating uncertainty in the mind of their intended victims. Thus the purpose for guaranteeing the right of warrant service prior to the activation of the power of forced entry by armed agents of state.
Well, that's kinda what I'm sayin'. Run the [bleep] off the road into a tree, then go back and search the crib.
Perhaps, if they're legitimately afraid to just knock on the door at a decent hour and wait for the man to come to the door to inspect your legal warrant, then I have no problem with pulling him over with some marked squad cars, which I assume (hope) is what you're referring to.
+1. Break down my door in the middle of the night, unannounced, and you just sacrificed your life for an idiot judge and an even MORE idiotic justice system.
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
That's some advice that many cops don't follow. Anyway, going to the local costume store and buying yourself a cop suit is easy to do. Anybody can be a cop at your door in the middle of the night.
I have not read all the posts but I have read enough to offer a general comment.
Many years ago I was house and pet sitting for friends out in the country. I of course, was armed. The owner and family decided to come home early, about 1 to 2 in the AM. I heard the door open and voices jumped out of bed and grab my 1911. Fortunately, the bedrooms are up stairs which gave me enough time to recognize voices and realize the dog, which usually bits first and ask questions later, was happy to see people. I realized it was the owner and family. The wife said she told the husband he should have called and let us know they were coming home earlier than expected. The husband thought it was funny and had full faith and trust in Jesus and me. This could have turned south real fast.
I always call and let my wife know that I'm coming home and she does like wise. Just good common sense in this day and age of the cell phone.
As to the police, if the 4th Amendment was followed there would not be police being accidental killed serving a warrant. Based on the information I've read so far, I would find the defendant not guilty in this case if I were on the jury. I do feel sorry for the death of the officer and his family but he did enter the house illegally.
Last but not least, I can find no where in the US Constitution that a convicted felon loses is his God-given right of self-defense of life, liberty, and property or that of his family.
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
You continue to build straw men.
Please tell that to the father who just killed his 14 year old daughter thinking she was an intruder. I'm sure he still agrees with the shoot first before identifying a threat motto
Assault forces smashing in doors of American citizens in the middle of the night, a real live shooting war in the middle of our country with cops, "criminals" and innocent civilians getting shot.
Billions and billions of dollars being funneled into the hands of the most unscrupulous segments of society, those dollars fueling massive corruption at every level of government and causing an escalating arms race that is now up to the level of armored vehicles.
Things that were legal for a hundred years and used by "high society" (pun maybe intended) - check out who frequented hashish parlors in NY and Boston in the 19th century - are suddenly by a stroke of the pen rendered illegal and instantly anybody using it is a scumbag.
We don't learn. In the opening minutes of the movie "The Roaring Twenties" made in 1939, the narrator describes how the only real effect of prohibition was to make fortunes for gangsters. They figured that out over 70 years ago.
Now someone is dead over a few plants. A few f*cking plants that have been growing wild forever. While other extremely toxic and deleterious drugs are openly sold at every neighborhood convenience store. While a few states over what had been "dirtbag drug dealers" are suddenly, magically going to be transformed at midnight on Dec. 31st into legitimate entrepreneurs and investors openly selling that same plant.
I am not saying hey, let's all run out and do drugs. But there has to be a better way to deal with this. Because what we have now is totally f*cked up.
Assault forces smashing in doors of American citizens in the middle of the night, a real live shooting war in the middle of our country with cops, "criminals" and innocent civilians getting shot.
Billions and billions of dollars being funneled into the hands of the most unscrupulous segments of society, those dollars fueling massive corruption at every level of government and causing an escalating arms race that is now up to the level of armored vehicles.
Things that were legal for a hundred years and used by "high society" (pun maybe intended) - check out who frequented hashish parlors in NY and Boston in the 19th century - are suddenly by a stroke of the pen rendered illegal and instantly anybody using it is a scumbag.
We don't learn. In the opening minutes of the movie "The Roaring Twenties" made in 1939, the narrator describes how the only real effect of prohibition was to make fortunes for gangsters. They figured that out over 70 years ago.
Now someone is dead over a few plants. A few f*cking plants that have been growing wild forever. While other extremely toxic and deleterious drugs are openly sold at every neighborhood convenience store. While a few states over what had been "dirtbag drug dealers" are suddenly, magically going to be transformed at midnight on Dec. 31st into legitimate entrepreneurs and investors openly selling that same plant.
I am not saying hey, let's all run out and do drugs. But there has to be a better way to deal with this. Because what we have now is totally f*cked up.
I think it has been demonstrated that the general public can handle the authority that comes with CC laws.
I also believe that the LE community nationwide can't handle the authority that comes with no knock warrants and military tactics and equipment.
Both you and Evil Twin's cavalier remarks give one pretty good insight why the latter is true. According to you, any snitch could put me in danger of a forced entry into my home by gung ho cops.
White trash, if that's what the shooter is, don't give up their rights. Looks like the fat ass deputy came looking for trouble and found it.
It needs to happen often enough to put a stop to the nonsense.
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
That's some advice that many cops don't follow. Anyway, going to the local costume store and buying yourself a cop suit is easy to do. Anybody can be a cop at your door in the middle of the night.
Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms.
Something else that has stuck out to ke in this thread is the amount of people qho have said ' if someone comes in to my house in the middle of the night, bullets will be flying'. That's paraphrased of course, but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
You continue to build straw men.
Please tell that to the father who just killed his 14 year old daughter thinking she was an intruder. I'm sure he still agrees with the shoot first before identifying a threat motto
Like I said, you continue to use straw men.
No I don't Sam, the premise is the same. The shoot first without identifying the threat attitude. That got this deputy killed as it did this little girl.
I have not read all the posts but I have read enough to offer a general comment.
Many years ago I was house and pet sitting for friends out in the country. I of course, was armed. The owner and family decided to come home early, about 1 to 2 in the AM. I heard the door open and voices jumped out of bed and grab my 1911. Fortunately, the bedrooms are up stairs which gave me enough time to recognize voices and realize the dog, which usually bits first and ask questions later, was happy to see people. I realized it was the owner and family. The wife said she told the husband he should have called and let us know they were coming home earlier than expected. The husband thought it was funny and had full faith and trust in Jesus and me. This could have turned south real fast.
I always call and let my wife know that I'm coming home and she does like wise. Just good common sense in this day and age of the cell phone.
As to the police, if the 4th Amendment was followed there would not be police being accidental killed serving a warrant. Based on the information I've read so far, I would find the defendant not guilty in this case if I were on the jury. I do feel sorry for the death of the officer and his family but he did enter the house illegally.
Last but not least, I can find no where in the US Constitution that a convicted felon loses is his God-given right of self-defense of life, liberty, and property or that of his family.
Assault forces smashing in doors of American citizens in the middle of the night, a real live shooting war in the middle of our country with cops, "criminals" and innocent civilians getting shot.
Billions and billions of dollars being funneled into the hands of the most unscrupulous segments of society, those dollars fueling massive corruption at every level of government and causing an escalating arms race that is now up to the level of armored vehicles.
Things that were legal for a hundred years and used by "high society" (pun maybe intended) - check out who frequented hashish parlors in NY and Boston in the 19th century - are suddenly by a stroke of the pen rendered illegal and instantly anybody using it is a scumbag.
We don't learn. In the opening minutes of the movie "The Roaring Twenties" made in 1939, the narrator describes how the only real effect of prohibition was to make fortunes for gangsters. They figured that out over 70 years ago.
Now someone is dead over a few plants. A few f*cking plants that have been growing wild forever. While other extremely toxic and deleterious drugs are openly sold at every neighborhood convenience store. While a few states over what had been "dirtbag drug dealers" are suddenly, magically going to be transformed at midnight on Dec. 31st into legitimate entrepreneurs and investors openly selling that same plant.
I am not saying hey, let's all run out and do drugs. But there has to be a better way to deal with this. Because what we have now is totally f*cked up.
Around here, they go in the daytime and knock on the door. Otherwise, they take more people if it is serious enough. Seems like some drugs should be legalized to avoid this stuff, like marijuana. Some drugs such as meth should stay illegal. Marijuana, cocaine, and heroin, can be weaned off of. Meth is so bad a person can be addicted for life.
In an affidavit for a warrant to search Sowders' trailer after the shooting, Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
Yep. And if he had the time to both hear and observe it he had time to verify it. That could have been done on a phone while he went to get his "legally owned" rifle
Notice that he didn't claim the guy KNEW they were cops, just that he heard the noise they made.
The very next line in the news report is a quote from DeGuerin that the guy didn't know it was a cop that came thru his door.
Actually, the shooter saved the County a bunch of money by killing instead of being killed. The cowardly cops in Tucson who killed the ex Marine cost the 3 Gov't entities 3.5 million bucks in an out of court settlement.
"Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms."
Following your advice would cost me time that I can't afford to loose in a situation such as this. Trailer house doors are not all that hard to bust open and there just are not many good hiding places in the ones I have been in. I would have to choose to defend myself. My life is on the line.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms
Yep. And if he had the time to both hear and observe it he had time to verify it. That could have been done on a phone while he went to get his "legally owned" rifle
Not to mention time to flush the stash...
Defeats the purpose of the NK search warrant, doesn't it?
Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
That statement is ambiguous and doesn't say that Magee knew they were a SWAT team. It is a quote from the Ranger who is identifying the people as a SWAT team.
Mostly I wouldn't try to judge this case based solely on the information in that article as it does not give enough details to provide a clear picture. The details of what happened and when will come out in the trial. (maybe).
If you're talking about an adult, that's none of anyone's business but his own unless he violates someone else's rights, at which point the law should get involved like with anything else. Same with selling drugs or alcohol to kids.
Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
That statement is ambiguous and doesn't say that Magee knew they were a SWAT team. It is a quote from the Ranger who is identifying the people as a SWAT team.
Correct!
First, the officers set off explosives outside his windows. Then they pounded on the door( attempting to smash it down). Pretty tough not to hear any of that. No mention of them Identifying themselves as LEO. After all it was supposed to be a NK raid.
Yes, of course he "Observed" the officer enter his home, he shot em. NO mention that he knew he was a cop, just that he "Observed" him in the dark.
Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
That statement is ambiguous and doesn't say that Magee knew they were a SWAT team. It is a quote from the Ranger who is identifying the people as a SWAT team.
Mostly I wouldn't try to judge this case based solely on the information in that article as it does not give enough details to provide a clear picture. The details of what happened and when will come out in the trial. (maybe).
The most important bit of info in the news article is that Dick DeGuerin is representing him. He is one of the top trial lawyers in Texas..... which means one of the tops in the country.
The family evidently convinced him the cops are in the wrong in this deal. It ain't likely they can afford his fee, and he don't take pro bono cases that are un-winnable.
this is all a mystery to me, if someone breaks my door down at 2AM and yells POLICE am I supposed to believe them? I have heard of home invaders using this same tactic here in GA.
this is all a mystery to me, if someone breaks my door down at 2AM and yells POLICE am I supposed to believe them? I have heard of home invaders using this same tactic here in GA.
no, you are supposed to find the time to call a time out, and call down town, (knowing in advance which agency is involved, that someone will answer the phone, and you have the number of the extension for the person who will quickly, and honestly answer your inquiry), and ask if the folks now waiting patiently on the other side of your door, are actually cops serving a no knock warrant, or are they another breed or miscreant.
this is all a mystery to me, if someone breaks my door down at 2AM and yells POLICE am I supposed to believe them? I have heard of home invaders using this same tactic here in GA.
no, you are supposed to find the time to call a time out, and call down town, (knowing in advance which agency is involved, that someone will answer the phone, and you have the number of the extension for the person who will quickly, and honestly answer your inquiry), and ask if the folks now waiting patiently on the other side of your door, are actually cops serving a no knock warrant, or are they another breed or miscreant.
Cavalier attitude??? I have NEVER seen or heard (here) of any warrant being issued based on the statement of an informant alone. Once a Search or arrest warrant has been issued, they are BOTH for the SEIZURE of items and/or person(s) named in the warrant. That complies with 4th Amendment specs. Resisting that search and seizure is not within anyone's rights. Not mine, not yours. This guy is toast.
Assault forces smashing in doors of American citizens in the middle of the night, a real live shooting war in the middle of our country with cops, "criminals" and innocent civilians getting shot.
Billions and billions of dollars being funneled into the hands of the most unscrupulous segments of society, those dollars fueling massive corruption at every level of government and causing an escalating arms race that is now up to the level of armored vehicles.
Things that were legal for a hundred years and used by "high society" (pun maybe intended) - check out who frequented hashish parlors in NY and Boston in the 19th century - are suddenly by a stroke of the pen rendered illegal and instantly anybody using it is a scumbag.
We don't learn. In the opening minutes of the movie "The Roaring Twenties" made in 1939, the narrator describes how the only real effect of prohibition was to make fortunes for gangsters. They figured that out over 70 years ago.
Now someone is dead over a few plants. A few f*cking plants that have been growing wild forever. While other extremely toxic and deleterious drugs are openly sold at every neighborhood convenience store. While a few states over what had been "dirtbag drug dealers" are suddenly, magically going to be transformed at midnight on Dec. 31st into legitimate entrepreneurs and investors openly selling that same plant.
I am not saying hey, let's all run out and do drugs. But there has to be a better way to deal with this. Because what we have now is totally f*cked up.
this is all a mystery to me, if someone breaks my door down at 2AM and yells POLICE am I supposed to believe them? I have heard of home invaders using this same tactic here in GA.
no, you are supposed to find the time to call a time out, and call down town, (knowing in advance which agency is involved, that someone will answer the phone, and you have the number of the extension for the person who will quickly, and honestly answer your inquiry), and ask if the folks now waiting patiently on the other side of your door, are actually cops serving a no knock warrant, or are they another breed or miscreant.
Cavalier attitude??? I have NEVER seen or heard (here) of any warrant being issued based on the statement of an informant alone. Once a Search or arrest warrant has been issued, they are BOTH for the SEIZURE of items and/or person(s) named in the warrant. That complies with 4th Amendment specs. Resisting that search and seizure is not within anyone's rights. Not mine, not yours. This guy is toast.
Cavalier attitude??? I have NEVER seen or heard (here) of any warrant being issued based on the statement of an informant alone. Once a Search or arrest warrant has been issued, they are BOTH for the SEIZURE of items and/or person(s) named in the warrant. That complies with 4th Amendment specs. Resisting that search and seizure is not within anyone's rights. Not mine, not yours. This guy is toast.
Wrong dude. The red dog squad killed an 80 year old woman in a wheel chair in Atlanta a few years back with a no knock warrent issued on an informants word. Several went to jail but the lady is dead.
By PM I've had a chance to talk with some of the cops on the Fire and I think most are good guys. However, there is a Bill of Rights for a reason and a 4th Amendment. Now I don't wish to see any police officer hurt or killed but if the police are going to take illegal actions that are clearly unconstitutional then they are going to be killed especially as the citizens arm up to protect themselves against Gestapo like tactics. In a free nation, citizens are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. In a free nation, force is retaliatory and not initiated nor does force make per-emptied strikes.
Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
A modified version of this worked well for me. Years ago, I was up studying late and got a knock on the door. The front door to the apartment was about 3 inches thick and solid oak. I went to the door and opened it a crack to see who was there. (not the smartest thing to do, looking back, but I wasn't doing anything wrong, and had no reason to expect what happened next.) A plain clothes officer (according to him, I never saw a badge, marked car, lights or anything that identified them as LEO's) asked to see a Mr. Nessmith. I told him there was nobody there by that name. He hit the door with his shoulder before I could blink, trying to break in. I had my tennis shoe blocking the door from opening any further and the guy bounced off the door and back into his partner.
At the time I remember thinking Mean Joe Green couldn't have forced that door open with a 10 yard running start. I shut the door, dead bolted it, went to the phone and called the police. The two guys drove around to the back and started trying to break in my bedroom window. I had the lights out and was standing in the hall watching them. I told the police who I was, my address and asked the police if they had an officer named whatever. If they did, they might want to call him off. I told them that whoever he was, he was trying to break into my apartment window and if he succeeded in getting inside, they were going to lose him. It didn't take but a second for his radio to start blaring and somebody called him off. I figured I would be getting a visit later that night or the next day about the incident, but I never heard a word about it.
Having a solid front door, a secure place to retreat to and a phone in that location allowed me the option to deal with a situation, that was going wrong in a hurry, in a manner that kept everybody safe. Quick action on the part of the police department in calling off their officers was a big plus too. I didn't need any more coffee to stay awake while I finished studying that night.
Pot plants, effing pot plants?? Explosions, and no knock warrant? Seems a little extreme to me. And how were the officers briefed before they tried to serve the warrant? If they were looking for illegal weapons, and the inhabitant was a convicted felon, don't you think they would have been a little more careful about their entry? They found out the hard way that they can't continue to trample people's rights, and deservedly so. Sorry about the dead officer, but I saw this coming a long time ago, and mentioned to my wife that it would take a few dead cops before they review their arrest techniques. Is it just me, or do a majority of the posters agree that this time, the cops were on the wrong side of the law? Seems like it's leaning that way.
but my point is, that these same guys that blurt this out are the same giys who will call out a huy for "shooting at the brown" when deer hunting. While I have absoluteky no issues with a man defending his life and property, shouldn't the same basic, fundamental rules of firearms handling, such as positively identify your target apply to a defensive scenario as well
It's a night/day comparison between hunting deer and someone bustin' yer door down in the middle of the night..
True, it won't be a deer.
It could be a bad guy, but it could also be the police, or a disoriented motorist who just crashed looking for help, your kid returning from college or a night out.
Once I had that 2 AM knock. It was the police. After putting my gun away I answered, and they caught some breaking into vehicles, including one of ours. We filed a report, they took the bad girl to jail, and said good night.
Point is, even at 2 AM I still see a need to be as certain as possible about my target, and backstop (when possible)
Personally, I have ZERO expectation of any visitors at this place after dark; but when that very rare event occurs I answer that door very cautiously AND with one hand on the door and the other's graspin' a Kimber..
I know for a FACT that no deer's gonna be knockin' on my door...
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Texas Ranger Andres de la Garza wrote, "By Magee's own admission he heard and observed the entry made by the SWAT team."
That statement is ambiguous and doesn't say that Magee knew they were a SWAT team. It is a quote from the Ranger who is identifying the people as a SWAT team.
Mostly I wouldn't try to judge this case based solely on the information in that article as it does not give enough details to provide a clear picture. The details of what happened and when will come out in the trial. (maybe).
The most important bit of info in the news article is that Dick DeGuerin is representing him. He is one of the top trial lawyers in Texas..... which means one of the tops in the country.
The family evidently convinced him the cops are in the wrong in this deal. It ain't likely they can afford his fee, and he don't take pro bono cases that are un-winnable.
After he wins this in court, he will also represent him in the Civil Case against the PD. Don't worry, the Lawyer will get his payday.
"Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms."
Following your advice would cost me time that I can't afford to loose in a situation such as this. Trailer house doors are not all that hard to bust open and there just are not many good hiding places in the ones I have been in. I would have to choose to defend myself. My life is on the line.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms
Then what should I do?
Your bedroom is next to your front door?
Or you just admitted that john q public knows the layout of your house better than you
Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
A modified version of this worked well for me. Years ago, I was up studying late and got a knock on the door. The front door to the apartment was about 3 inches thick and solid oak. I went to the door and opened it a crack to see who was there. (not the smartest thing to do, looking back, but I wasn't doing anything wrong, and had no reason to expect what happened next.) A plain clothes officer (according to him, I never saw a badge, marked car, lights or anything that identified them as LEO's) asked to see a Mr. Nessmith. I told him there was nobody there by that name. He hit the door with his shoulder before I could blink, trying to break in. I had my tennis shoe blocking the door from opening any further and the guy bounced off the door and back into his partner.
At the time I remember thinking Mean Joe Green couldn't have forced that door open with a 10 yard running start. I shut the door, dead bolted it, went to the phone and called the police. The two guys drove around to the back and started trying to break in my bedroom window. I had the lights out and was standing in the hall watching them. I told the police who I was, my address and asked the police if they had an officer named whatever. If they did, they might want to call him off. I told them that whoever he was, he was trying to break into my apartment window and if he succeeded in getting inside, they were going to lose him. It didn't take but a second for his radio to start blaring and somebody called him off. I figured I would be getting a visit later that night or the next day about the incident, but I never heard a word about it.
Having a solid front door, a secure place to retreat to and a phone in that location allowed me the option to deal with a situation, that was going wrong in a hurry, in a manner that kept everybody safe. Quick action on the part of the police department in calling off their officers was a big plus too. I didn't need any more coffee to stay awake while I finished studying that night.
If they didn't come back, I doubt it was the police. Sounds like a bad guy with a police radio.
Pot plants, effing pot plants?? Explosions, and no knock warrant? Seems a little extreme to me. And how were the officers briefed before they tried to serve the warrant? If they were looking for illegal weapons, and the inhabitant was a convicted felon, don't you think they would have been a little more careful about their entry? They found out the hard way that they can't continue to trample people's rights, and deservedly so. Sorry about the dead officer, but I saw this coming a long time ago, and mentioned to my wife that it would take a few dead cops before they review their arrest techniques. Is it just me, or do a majority of the posters agree that this time, the cops were on the wrong side of the law? Seems like it's leaning that way.
With the limited information we have, yes, it appears they were wrong all the way around. An inflated warrant based on weak evidence from a locked up informant looking for a deal.
A no knock warrant that was blown. They blew the element of surprise, mis-deployed their flashbangs, and didn't announce they were police while entering a small confined space with multiple kill zones (trailers and long hallways) knowing it may contain a commodity of value to rip off teams, who at 2 am could looks just like they do.
To me, it looks like an over zealous, under trained group of wanna-be's got one of their own killed over 2 pot plants.
For those of you who missed it, LT had the correct answer. Containing the guy at a traffic stop and then searching his place might not be as much "fun", but in all probability it would of saved this young fathers life.
I figured if it was bad guys looking for somebody that maybe used to live there, the real cops I was talking to on the phone would have showed up to see what was going on. They never did. So to me, they knew it was their guys, probably knocking on the wrong door. Either way, it turned out good for me and whoever was breaking into my bedroom window. A few more minutes and it could have been really bad for everybody.
Tragic when these things go wrong and it only takes one mistake and a few seconds for it to happen.
this is all a mystery to me, if someone breaks my door down at 2AM and yells POLICE am I supposed to believe them? I have heard of home invaders using this same tactic here in GA.
no, you are supposed to find the time to call a time out, and call down town, (knowing in advance which agency is involved, that someone will answer the phone, and you have the number of the extension for the person who will quickly, and honestly answer your inquiry), and ask if the folks now waiting patiently on the other side of your door, are actually cops serving a no knock warrant, or are they another breed or miscreant.
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Supposedly this warrant involved stolen guns. A stock is a big component of a gun.
"Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms."
Following your advice would cost me time that I can't afford to loose in a situation such as this. Trailer house doors are not all that hard to bust open and there just are not many good hiding places in the ones I have been in. I would have to choose to defend myself. My life is on the line.
Unless you are a dope dealing felon in possession of firearms
Then what should I do?
Your bedroom is next to your front door?
Or you just admitted that john q public knows the layout of your house better than you
What?? Bedroom door??? I have no idea of what you are referring to. Do you?
Don't answer the door, tell them you are calling 911 to verify they their is a unit at your address serving a warrant. Instead of undertaking an active search for an intruder, take a defensive position inside your home, ypu have the tactical advantage of knowing your home's layout, why give that advantage up to find an individual who may lye in wait in the shadows for you to find him. Make him come to uou, use cover and again make contact with 911 and give them your name, address, and tell them that you are armed. Confirm that they infact are LE at your residence.
A modified version of this worked well for me. Years ago, I was up studying late and got a knock on the door. The front door to the apartment was about 3 inches thick and solid oak. I went to the door and opened it a crack to see who was there. (not the smartest thing to do, looking back, but I wasn't doing anything wrong, and had no reason to expect what happened next.) A plain clothes officer (according to him, I never saw a badge, marked car, lights or anything that identified them as LEO's) asked to see a Mr. Nessmith. I told him there was nobody there by that name. He hit the door with his shoulder before I could blink, trying to break in. I had my tennis shoe blocking the door from opening any further and the guy bounced off the door and back into his partner.
At the time I remember thinking Mean Joe Green couldn't have forced that door open with a 10 yard running start. I shut the door, dead bolted it, went to the phone and called the police. The two guys drove around to the back and started trying to break in my bedroom window. I had the lights out and was standing in the hall watching them. I told the police who I was, my address and asked the police if they had an officer named whatever. If they did, they might want to call him off. I told them that whoever he was, he was trying to break into my apartment window and if he succeeded in getting inside, they were going to lose him. It didn't take but a second for his radio to start blaring and somebody called him off. I figured I would be getting a visit later that night or the next day about the incident, but I never heard a word about it.
Having a solid front door, a secure place to retreat to and a phone in that location allowed me the option to deal with a situation, that was going wrong in a hurry, in a manner that kept everybody safe. Quick action on the part of the police department in calling off their officers was a big plus too. I didn't need any more coffee to stay awake while I finished studying that night.
Holy crap!! That's a heck of a deal there. Glad you didn't have to shoot anyone. I'm not a lawbreaker and pray that no one - NO ONE - ever attempts to enter my private property unannounced and uninvited.
Some are prepared to flush drugs at a moments notice.
So what. That should be a clue that it's inappropriate subject matter for making criminal, not that cops need the power to violate folks' constitutional rights.
The police had a signed warrant for the residence. No violation of the residents constitutional rights. The courts allow no knocks under certain circumstances. I agree that that procedure makes the entry risky for all parties involved, but your position that the mans 4a rights were violated has no standing.
Yeah, they had the backing of a bureaucratic decision, no violation of constitutional rights...
Cavalier attitude??? I have NEVER seen or heard (here) of any warrant being issued based on the statement of an informant alone. Once a Search or arrest warrant has been issued, they are BOTH for the SEIZURE of items and/or person(s) named in the warrant. That complies with 4th Amendment specs. Resisting that search and seizure is not within anyone's rights. Not mine, not yours. This guy is toast.
Wrong dude. The red dog squad killed an 80 year old woman in a wheel chair in Atlanta a few years back with a no knock warrent issued on an informants word. Several went to jail but the lady is dead.
Then you best look to see the difference in State statutes and Criminal Procedure Law. CPL here is a pretty tight leash. Oh, I DID say "here" unless you overlooked it.
Hang a mirror on your front door. As they take turns checking their hair and getting their Oakleys straight you can collect your stuff and slip out the back.
Hang a mirror on your front door. As they take turns checking their hair and getting their Oakleys straight you can collect your stuff and slip out the back.
Hang a mirror on your front door. As they take turns checking their hair and getting their Oakleys straight you can collect your stuff and slip out the back.
Yeah good luck with that, they would have to wait until my Daughter was finished with it first.
Hang a mirror on your front door. As they take turns checking their hair and getting their Oakleys straight you can collect your stuff and slip out the back.
Seems there's usually one or more "Hollywood" cops in most departments. In our city's PD there was a guy like that. The other officers said you could tell when he had been driving a car because the mirror would be turned so he could see himself in it.
We had two local officer killed a few years back, who would likely. Be alive today had a no knock been issued. The suspect was known to threaten people and on more than one occasion and threatened police with firearms. He watched them drive up his drive way and gunned them down when they got out of the car. I can still hear Chris's voice over his radio pleading for his life before he was shot in the head. Its quite likely that had a no knock been served at 4 in the morning when the suspect and his homies were passed out drunk and High that two wives would have their husbands and children would still have their fathers.
Condolenses.. I have to compliment you on some sort of restraint... If I would have had to listen to an LEO beg for his life to some meth head who shot him in the head... I'd admit to having a real hate for meth heads period.. and would want to shoot everyone of them I came across...
I have no use for them as it is.... and every one I hear that gets killed around here in any way, I feel it is one less problem society and decent people have to worry about...
No story... His attorney claims? That's what defense attorneys get paid to do... Create reasonable doubt. I don't care if the guy was the biggest drug pushing scumbag on the planet. Until he is convicted in a court of law, by a jury of his peers, he has the right to defend himself. The idea that he could escape, barricade or destroy evidence is horse chit. Read this... Cops like kicking in doors. SWAT teams budgets must be legitimized by call outs. You guys are real quick to usurp someone else's right of defense.
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Supposedly this warrant involved stolen guns. A stock is a big component of a gun.
A stock is not legally a firearm and I see no way your response fits???
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Supposedly this warrant involved stolen guns. A stock is a big component of a gun.
A stock is not legally a firearm and I see no way your response fits???
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Supposedly this warrant involved stolen guns. A stock is a big component of a gun.
A stock is not legally a firearm and I see no way your response fits???
PM Splattermatic and he will explain Ethan's post.
My brother was involved in a "wrong address" raid where the search warrant clearly stated an address across the street. The focus of the search had sent them across the street to the "right house"...
They broke the door in knowing the address on the warrant did not match the broken door...
I can see where someone doing absolutely nothing wrong could find himself in a position where he had to shoot. Were cops infallible it would not be so...
Supposedly this warrant involved stolen guns. A stock is a big component of a gun.
A stock is not legally a firearm and I see no way your response fits???
I didn't expect you to.
Sorry, thought for once you actually had a clue...
24 pages on the 24hr Campfire and only a handfull think that Magee should get the needle. Many feel he was justified and they would do the same if in his shoes.
If I was a bettin man, with odds like this, I would have to bet that Mr Magee will be acquitted on the Murder charge. Especially with Defense Attorney Dick DeGuerin at the helm.
I would also bet that this LE agency and others around the Country will use this case to re-think the way No-Knock warrants are executed. Executed, meaning bigger, badder and harder attacks on the average citizen.
Those that have carry permits, those that have purchased Hunting licences, those that are known Gun Owners will get the Nod from the Courts and the LE agencies for Fast and Furious Shoot First and Ask Questions later New and Improved No-Knock Warrants of the future.
Back in 1979 a MN man was convicted for shooting a cop who entered his home announced.
In 1982 the conviction was overturned.
we are drawn to the conclusion that the prosecution failed to prove beyond every reasonable doubt that defendant Housley was not acting in his own self-defense when he shot at Sergeant Mack. Accordingly, we reverse.
Back in 1979 a MN man was convicted for shooting a cop who entered his home announced.
In 1982 the conviction was overturned.
we are drawn to the conclusion that the prosecution failed to prove beyond every reasonable doubt that defendant Housley was not acting in his own self-defense when he shot at Sergeant Mack. Accordingly, we reverse.
So, according to this "Self Defense" may indeed justify the shooting of an LEO in a No-Knock Raid.
Good to Know!
Apples and Oranges............the case listed above is different.
I clicked on the link above and did some reading about that case. There was this quote which makes it a completely different comparison to the OP(Original Post) case.
Quote
All the police cars were unmarked. Prior to departure, the police ran a check on Housley and found that he had no criminal record.
There has been quite a bit of interest and discussion(25 pages/242 responses/65K+ views) about this case. From the second link of the two links provided in the OP it appears that the shooter was a convicted felon who "legally" had no right(s) to be in any proximity of firearms.
Quote
DeGuerin said, adding that Magee -- who has a felony and misdemeanor drug conviction -- believed the man rushing in was an intruder and he needed to defend himself.
How a "high profile criminal defense attorney" can say something like that and still think there is a defendable case is very baffling.
DeGuerin said, adding that Magee -- who has a felony and misdemeanor drug conviction -- believed the man rushing in was an intruder and he needed to defend himself.
How a "high profile criminal defense attorney" can say something like that and still think there is a defendable case is very baffling.
I don't believe that the defense attorney was being quoted there. The comments about the felony and misdemeanor drug conviction were separated by dashes which would indicate to me the information was added by the author of the article. It may or may not be true, who knows.
It doesn't matter whether or not there is a defendable case. The defense attorney is going to be paid to do it anyway and everything he says or does is going to be geared toward getting his guy acquitted.
A criminal Record does not take away a citizens right to self defense.
So, far there have been no comments by his attorney or the Sheriff's Dept, that he had a felony conviction. Only the words of a reporter.
And from Gitem 12
"I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants"
Why would they not announce? Not like you can hide in a mobile home.
personally ,I feel that they should announce just to avoid such a tragic situation ,that being said the suspect is FAR from a choir boy and should be dealt with ,like someone said surround the place ,announce as the front door comes down maybe 1 second before but announce just so the scum bag can't say he didn't know who was there ,neutralize as necessary
A criminal Record does not take away a citizens right to self defense.
So, far there have been no comments by his attorney or the Sheriff's Dept, that he had a felony conviction. Only the words of a reporter.
And from Gitem 12
"I would surmise the KN requirements were met because they had grounds to believe the suspect ( who was a convicted felon) was armed and had more to do with element of surpise in regards to safety. And had damn little to do with the number of Pot plants"
...And he got that from the News article, from the reporter, NOT from the LEO or Magee's attorney.
Why would they not announce? Not like you can hide in a mobile home.
personally ,I feel that they should announce just to avoid such a tragic situation ,that being said the suspect is FAR from a choir boy and should be dealt with ,like someone said surround the place ,announce as the front door comes down maybe 1 second before but announce just so the scum bag can't say he didn't know who was there ,neutralize as necessary
We don't know that he was a scum bag. With all the felony criminal laws on the books today anyone of us on here is a potential scum bag.
Why would they not announce? Not like you can hide in a mobile home.
personally ,I feel that they should announce just to avoid such a tragic situation ,that being said the suspect is FAR from a choir boy and should be dealt with ,like someone said surround the place ,announce as the front door comes down maybe 1 second before but announce just so the scum bag can't say he didn't know who was there ,neutralize as necessary
We don't know that he was a scum bag. With all the felony criminal laws on the books today anyone of us on here is a potential scum bag.
...and if you are from CT and you did not get your "assault" rifle and your mags Registered by Jan 2014, you are now a Scum Bag and subject to the same treatment by LEO.
If you guys define "scum Bag" as some one you has broken the law and endangered the public in any way, who is the bigger scum bag here?
The trailer trash that grew a few pot plant for personal use, or the LEO that acquired a No-Knock Warrant under false pretense and violated the United States Constitution?
Which is the Bigger Crime here? A few plants or the Constitution? If you want to call those involved "Scum Bags", go for it, just be sure to include all the scum.
He lived n a trailer house........ that makes him scum to a lot of the guys here.
He came to the attention of a cop. THAT makes him a scumbag.
From the deputy's picture, the donut shop is gonna take a big financial hit. That's what scumbags like this piece of trailer trash do to hurt their community.
Why would they not announce? Not like you can hide in a mobile home.
personally ,I feel that they should announce just to avoid such a tragic situation ,that being said the suspect is FAR from a choir boy and should be dealt with ,like someone said surround the place ,announce as the front door comes down maybe 1 second before but announce just so the scum bag can't say he didn't know who was there ,neutralize as necessary
What you don't understand is that, absent due process, cops breaking down a door with guns drawn are undistinguished in our legal tradition from a gang of any other sort of brigands. Due process isn't achieved till the suspect has been granted a reasonable opportunity to inspect and understand the warrant document. Until then, all people attempting to force entry, badges or no, are no better than brigands in the eyes of the law, and may (ought to be) treated as such in a free society in which the rule of law still applies.
Why would they not announce? Not like you can hide in a mobile home.
personally ,I feel that they should announce just to avoid such a tragic situation ,that being said the suspect is FAR from a choir boy and should be dealt with ,like someone said surround the place ,announce as the front door comes down maybe 1 second before but announce just so the scum bag can't say he didn't know who was there ,neutralize as necessary
What you don't understand is that, absent due process, cops breaking down a door with guns drawn are undistinguished in our legal tradition from a gang of any other sort of brigands. Due process isn't achieved till the suspect has been granted a reasonable opportunity to inspect and understand the warrant document. Until then, all people attempting to force entry, badges or no, are no better than brigands in the eyes of the law, and may (ought to be) treated as such in a free society in which the rule of law still applies.
So the LEO lawbreakers are no better that the trailer trash scum like Magee.
So the LEO lawbreakers are no better that the trailer trash scum like Magee.
Worse, since Magee is a mere suspect, presumed innocent before the law, while the cops are behaving like Viking raiders, having failed to render due process according to original intent.
So the LEO lawbreakers are no better that the trailer trash scum like Magee.
Worse, since Magee is a mere suspect, presumed innocent before the law, while the cops are behaving like Viking raiders, having failed to render due process according to original intent.
So the LEO lawbreakers are no better that the trailer trash scum like Magee.
Worse, since Magee is a mere suspect, presumed innocent before the law, while the cops are behaving like Viking raiders, having failed to render due process according to original intent.
I couldn't agree more and said much better than I would have said it.
Don't worry boys. You're a lot scarier than we are.
THAT explains a lot.
Nah...I mean as individuals. Used to be, the only things I was scared of were lightning and women. Now it's just lightning. But hey...if it makes you happy...
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