http://www.ksat.com/news/ksatcom-exclusive-unedited-video-of-fatal-deputy-involved-shooting

Then again, we can't see the other arm. He might have been doing his best Otto impression...

Hmmmm, that might be an expensive shoot.

White lives matter !

Clearly unintentional, but since pointing a gun at someone, absent very serious justification, constitutes reckless conduct, a murder charge doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Remember, recklessness satisfies for criminal intent in the eyes of the law. That is, unless he can provide a reasonable justification for pointing a loaded handgun at the man. No such justification appeared evident in the video, however.

Of course this is generating a lot of attention here.

First off, race ain't an issue since everyone involved appears to be Hispanic and this is San Antonio/South Texas anyhow.

All the following IIRC...

Wife who called the Cops holding child, wife bleeding from perp-inflicted scalp wound outdie of home when Deputies arrive.

Reports are that perp had expressed intention to commit "suicide by Cop" immediately prior to LEO arrival.

Perp active and acting erratically when Sheriff Deputies arrive (this was in a new, upscale development outside the city limits) consistent with actions of individual under the influence of substances. This individual can be seen on tape running around on the front lawn and neighbors' driveways. When the deputies arrived he was holding a knife, some reports had it he had a knife when his hands were raised.

Tazers reportedly deployed with no effect, whether due to miss or mental state of perp has not been reported. Reports of a "twenty minute struggle" prior to shooting. Both deputies fired one round.

Perp identified in news along with a mugshot-type photo, may have a prior arrest record.

Many questions yet to be answered, dunno if it was a legitimate use of deadly force or not.

Birdwatcher

both cops shot. if that dude didn't have a gun in his left hand, thats going to be tough to justify.

Twenty minute struggle and two deputies doesn't add up. It's San Antonio not a two officer stoplight town. Cops wrestling with suspect and tazers ineffective would draw a crowd of officers in twenty minutes. Domestic dispute here would gather five of six officers even without resisting arrest or erratic behavior like running around appearing under the influence.

It's crazy watching that video, that was the street we lived on for the last 4 years prior to moving this past Nov. it's on the outskirts of SA on the NW side heading away from SA, so it's not like there's a lot of law enforcement nearby like you'd have closer into the city.

Case closed.

I cannot tell from the video if the perp was surrendering. Looked like something like "You want my hands up? There's my hands up, now come get me."

Note that both Cops were keeping a distance like he had a knife, actually retreating at one point when he approached.

I am wondering if they had fingers on the trigger at that point, and if they were using stock Glocks.

Birdwatcher

Really hurts both my feelers to see an armed career criminal who just injured a woman and a kid in a domestic dispute get put down by the cops, NOT!

Coppers must have been using those fine Gold Dots or Barnes monos to penetrate that land whale and make him fold up like a k-mart lawn chair, all that stupid quickly went bye-bye, good shoot, POPO.

Ha, ha. Now that was funny right about there, Pat.

That was a mean spirited thing to say.

When we get the 'rest of the story'... we will find out Moby there needed to have his end of the gene pool chlorinated.

Cops don't normally tell somebody to put their hands up, contrary to what TV says. If this guy had a weapon, or was reasonably believed to have one, and moved in the slightest way, he needed shooting.

But , but he needed that knife in case the cops showed up with guns

Concur, that dipchittt worked very hard for 41 years to meet those two Officers, hell, he earned those slugs.

We are entering a very dangerous place, if cops can be judges and executioners, don't be surprised or up set when civilians start making those same calls.

I would guess a big mac with cheese would have disarmed him just the same, and then a jury would decide his fate, are cops really that afraid of fat white guys?

And possession of a knife is illegal where?

He was a fat frijolie.

You're right. Why didn't the civilians shoot him, instead of calling the cops?

If a civilian shot him they would call it murder, just like the witness said it was, and a court will find the same.

That guy was more a threat to a cheese burger than to any one there.

Being a dirt bag is not a capital offence, and if its going to become one, then the shootings are just beginning.

This only happens when Superheros have to piss.

Unless one just wanted to be killed why would one not drop whatever is in their hand immediately??

You guys can laugh and high five your shave headed brethren all night, but this shooting with a fat white guy with his hands clearly in the air, is just one more of a seemingly never ending example of [bleep] and lets killem attitude that has the country in an uproar.

Keep an I on your backs because you're making lots of enemies out there, and seemingly for no reason other than its easier than taking a step back and thinking for a moment, I saw no immediate threat.

Would a woman have been shot in that same situation? Of course not!

A knife in the hands of a possible aggressor is considered a "shoot" situation within 21 feet. It has been shown that reaction time delay will get you cut within that distance, hence the "21 foot rule"

I'm curious to see the other video closer up that is mentioned in the news report and see what the perp did with his left hand just prior to getting shot. It was behind the pole he may have reached for something who knows! The investigation will tell the tale.

Mike

You mean the civilian with the cell phone? The one that could have solved that problem before the police got there?

Well I can see that, that guys street name was "swift".

And if I watched the tape correctly the cops put them selves in to that situation, the fat guy was going away from them not proceeding towards them.

There were options, besides killing that man, if deadly force is going to be used, and I have nothing against it, it certainly needs to be with a whole lot more discretion, the shooting of Cecil the lion was more deserving for God sake!

Did you see the age of the cops involved? NO WAY they grew up watching T.J. Hooker, if they had I know they would have taken his legs out by skipping the baton off the pavement from 21 feet.

Not enough T.J. Hooker fans is the problem.

I want Jeb B. to weigh in on this,....let's find out if that was an act of violence, or an act of love, before Going off half cocked.

GTC

The law requires some aggressive action with the knife. Refusal to drop it on command by an officer would only provide justification if he were moving towards them while holding it.

Im beginning to think there are real cops and there are semicops.

No, the law requires one be in fear of serious bodily injury to themselves, or another, as justification. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Well those two cops need to grow a pair, if that guy had them pissen all over them selves then maybe the parking authority could use them. WTF!

"District Attorney Nico LaHood told KSAT that there is a second video that was recorded closer to the scene of the shooting. That video has not been released to the public."

I see no justification to shoot there. That guy was a scumbag I'm sure but, those cops were dirty. Nobody was in immediate danger.

Maybe so. They can always be salesmen. Happens all the time.

Especially you.

I'm pro cop but not blind. Wrong is wrong and right is right. Maybe something different will come out on this but, that was wrong from what I saw.

What did the guy have in his hand and what did he say just before he moved?

I have no idea. The video was taken from about 300 yards away.

If that fast-moving and agitated individual was carrying a knife, the Cops were in immediate danger the whole time. Weapon seems likely on account of tho it was two to one they were keeping their distance and even retreating at one point.

Hands thrown up didn't look like a gesture of surrender to me, more like sarcastic defiance.

Everyone is saying "fat White guy", naah, around here we'd call that guy "Mexican", referring to ethnicity rather than nationality. Looks to me like a guy who grew up on the South Side of this city as a member of the criminal element. And by local standards, the guy weren't especially fat.

I dunno what funds bought that house, but I doubt the guy worked hard in a legitimate career to buy it.

Birdwatcher

Good point ltp.

Sure is nice to see the rush to judgement, speaks wonders of our society as a whole in this day and age of "instant news" with video available from everywhere.

My question, and it kinda goes along with ltpowell's, is based on watching that very short snippet of video. Looking closly, I seemed to notice that just about exactly the same time the "alleged" offender is shot, the officer on the right side of the screen next to the dark SUV starts taking steps backward and seems to be starting to "duck" also? Did the "bad guy" have something in his left hand that he was getting ready to throw(or starting to motion with)? Did the officer I mention percieve a threat? Or was he ducking and backing because the other officer fired first? Hard to tell in that video, taken with a cell phone, from a distance away.

Maybe that other video will surface and we can find out. Until then I'll try to reserve judgement of all parties involved.

But I think the guy maybe should have gotten down on the ground if he wanted to live.

Geno

After reviewing all available evidence, the only thing I can testify to is that one, or both, of those officers made a good shot. Everything else is speculation.

Hard to tell but it looked like he had his hands up and then was lowering them (at least the right hand) quickly and then was shot.

Sounds like the guy was given a twenty-minute opportunity to lie down on the ground.

That's what I was trying to get across.

I was surrounded by the police in a case of mistaken identity years ago. Scary , scary situation. 7-8 squad cars and the helicopter hovering with it's lights on. I did exactly as told. I'm still alive.

He's not!

Geno

PS. I didn't blame the cops either. However, I was "profiled" and have been for years.

Please tell us about the last time you bum rushed someone with a knife in their hands

Yeah the woman with slashes and the beat up kid were thinking the same thing when Moby waddled up to the 21 foot line and said, "Here's Johnny!"

Video guy #1 is outraged that the Cops "just shot that guy down".... and then SELLS his recording to a local news outlet for $100, bet he wishes now he had held out for more. This is the one we see out there on the media.

Sounds like video guy #2, closer to the scene and perhaps a neighbor, GAVE his video or a copy thereof to the appropriate authorities.

I'd like to hear the second guy's take on events.

Birdwatcher

Looks to me like the deceased jerked his right hand down just prior to soaking up some lead. If both officers fired one shot apiece, it must have appeared to both of them that he had done so as well.

all I can say is that you cannot see enough in this video to understand what was happening.

Yeah, but lets not let that get in the way of conjecture.

An old wise man said, "what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be is always better than nothing."













Ok, it was the Doobie Brothers, and they were probably higher than hell, but it fits.

I have no problem shooting any of these thugs, yet when all of the high fiven and fist bumping are over, this looks pretty chicken [bleep].

One fat white guy thats pissed off, standing with his hands in the air, not real scary in my mind, yet his life is taken because that with the easiest way out.
Where is the "clearer" video? If it shows that this was such a good shoot.

As more and more of these shoots are recorded its going to be harder and harder to justify many of them.And its not a good time for the cop to make any more enemies.

according to a local attorney representing the family, the second video shows him with his hands up. at least that's what he said on the news this morning. Thomas j Henry is a prick but a very successful attorney.

I'm betting that second video is from the body cam that all LE IN Texas is required to wear


Again when was the last time you faced someone who was angry/mentally unstable, and who was armed with a knife?

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Fear alone is inadequate. The fear must be reasonable by an objective standard. Standing passively with hands raised is inadequate, regardless of how much actual fear the officers subjectively felt.

I'm betting that second video is from the body cam that all LE IN Texas is required to wear

I dunno that the Sheriff's Dept. has 'em yet, the local reports said neither officer was wearing one.

Birdwatcher

The video I've seen on TV appears to have been shot with a cell phone, over a fence, from a 2nd story window across the street.

I saw a guy raise his hands, but he didn't look at all passive to me. If I had to pick between a) he was surrendering or b) he wanted to draw 'em in closer, I'd pick "b".

JMHO....

I'm married, so its not exactly all that rare of an occurrence.

Stop thinking with your dipstick, Jimy.

I have dealt with individuals armed with knives enough times to one thing...when confronting them and attempting to put hands on. You're going to get cut. In 15 years I was cut twice

One time cost me a couple hours of surgery and 4 weeks off from work. The second cost me 11 stitches

If he had had a knife in his hands, raised or not and was within 21 feet and not responding cognitively/appropriately to LE commands and was acting aggressively, either physically or verbally then it was was a justifiable use of force

I'm copying your post and measuring my kitchen, I think I'm inside the twenty one foot rule, the little woman better watch her chitt, and make better coffee from here on out!

I'm betting Pat knows more about tx's use of force laws than you do

I shoulda shot the guy responsible for this:

If that is the case, you should divorce your husband.

Chicks dig scars, hell you owe him one!

Body Cams are not required, but mobile video recorders are. They will be, and funding was just approved by the State to buy some yesterday.

20 years ago, we joked about having to wear a video camera on our shoulder while we worked. Shouldn't have laughed so hard at the idea...

http://www.kristv.com/story/2993852...cial&utm_source=facebook_KRIS_6_News

check out video in link.

CORPUS CHRISTI -

Local attorney Thomas J Henry is now representing the family of a man killed by two deputies in Bexar County.

Video of that shooting was released on Tuesday, and raises serious questions about whether deadly force was justified.

The video was shot by a citizen with the cell phone down the street.

It shows Flores shot twice by two deputies while he appears to have his hands in the air.

"This still photograph shows Mr. Flores in his front yard, with his hands up," said Henry on Tuesday as he pointed at one of several large posters, "This is critical because this video appears to demonstrate that the immediate danger of death or serious injury to an officer or another officer had passed."

Henry says it was a domestic dispute involving Flores and the mother of his child, born 21 days earlier, that brought deputies to the home.

A spokesperson for the sheriff's office said those deputies tried to use non-lethal force to detain him, but it didn't work, so they resorted to gunfire.

Henry worries the shooting could impact future standoffs between suspects and police.

"If you put your arms up, and that's not enough to say 'I give up', and you get shot and killed, what does that say for people who are willing to give up?" he questioned.

Henry has also learned that another citizen shot a similar video, and it could shed even more light on what happened.

Henry wants that video released by the county.

"I think all people in the community, in the state, and in our country want to see that second video to confirm whether it clarifies was he holding both of his hands up when he was shot and killed," he said.

According to Henry, a civil rights lawsuit in federal court isn't a certainty yet, but based on what he knows right now, it's highly likely.

A grand jury is expected to review the shooting to decide if the deputies should face criminal charges for their actions.

UPDATE 9/2/2015

Various media sources are stating that Flores had prior convictions for aggravated robbery and assault with a deadly weapon.

Comments

So here is a video, taken at the Wal-Mart in Lubbock a week or two ago. This guy has his hands up and down several times, but I don't believe there is anyone here that would think he was no longer a threat. It took 4 police with multiple bean bag rounds, and I think maybe a tazer as well, to take him down.

You less than lethal force guys should watch this. Life isn't so simple in the real world as it is the theoretical one. He didn't go down until he took a bean bag to the head, which can very easily be lethal.

http://lubbockonline.com/filed-onli...ficer-use-less-lethal-force#.Veb6UPlVhHw

Right? I remember telling myself..."Thank God I'll be retired before I have to learn how to use a computer"

I actually thought I had heard it from you, my mistake

I saw the vid everyone else did, and of course I wasn't there so can't pass correct judgement, but my first thought was that could have easily been a " Fun with Tazers" moment....

You did, but it was the MVR.

I didn't see a lot of time pass from when he put his hands up and when he was shot. Don't you think, absent some aggressive action on his part, that he should have been allowed a minute or two to follow instructions to lie down on the ground before his life was taken?

Perhaps, but he's wrong in precisely how I stated that he was in this particular case. Fear isn't the standard for lethal force justification. It must be reasonable fear by an objective standard. Were that not the case, Barney Fife would be justified in shooting half the town of Mayberry.

It's amazing.. (well not really)...That you haven't figured out Mayberry Andy and Barone were fake and never existed in the real world


You seem to purposely leave out that the cops were called there for a reason and if the information posted above is true then the individual had andblready committed felony andblreadyssault at the very least, how do you find it unreasonable that that an individual facing the said suspect, who was likely in a further agitated state just by the cops being called, would not feel threatened?

That is sort of how I feel. IMO, the cops were not in significant danger at the point of the shooting. There is no way the nut-job could have rushed two cops aiming Glocks at him from that distance and get close enough to cut either one of them without getting shot a bunch of times. But, what about the woman and kid inside the house? I'm thinking that the cops thought he was about to head back inside and potentially do more damage to them....anyway that would be my defense if I were they. Then again, at some point they had to take the knife away from him and arrest him. Did either cop have a taser at the time. If not, I can't see one telling the other to "cover him while I go get the taser" and I can't see them risking getting cut up trying to take the knife from the idiot. I don't think cops owe idiots that kind of favor.

I am like you, if an idiot is facing two cops with a weapon and won't put it down after being asked a couple of times, the idiot gets shot....not too many questions asked. Same with running away from a cop with a weapon. The cop has no idea who or how many you will kill with it if you are crazy and resisting arrest is a pretty darn good sign that you are.

Gitem, I'll stick with my statements on this point. You are, of course, free to disagree.

Nice twist, but what is reasonable is determined by what the individual in fear believes. You are correct in a way, as fear is not the only justification of the use of deadly force. If a person has displayed the use of deadly force (which a knife represents) and it is reasonably believed (again...by the individual) that death or serious bodily injury to another will occur if the arrest is delayed, deadly force is justified.

Ummm...yes he could very well have covered that distance and quite possibly been on top of one of the cops before either cops reaction/response impulse connected and allowed him to respond accordingly....that's the whole point behind the oft quoted "21 foot rule"


They had apparently already used tasters with no effect

For A box of Ho Ho's and he would have cuffed him self!

I could have gathered the same amount of information by staring at a wall.

That video is a worthless POS.




Travis

^^^^^^^^^ this

The man only had shorts on !!!!

As we're speculating, how long do watch a young lady bleeding to death before you shoot the guy that cut her up and is preventing her aid?

The suspect, for the record, was being sought in connection with a call involving domestic abuse/assault on the mother of his 21-day-old child, who was in that house and whom the now deceased had threatened or assaulted with a knife (which may or may not have still been in the hand not visible on the video).

Therefore reasonable justification for the officers to have firearms aimed at the suspect/deceased existed.

As for the rest, if there is a second video I'd like to see it.

Yet another erudite discussion of LE use of force. This one includes the 21' rule and TRH's drooling explanation of "reasonable fear" out of context and absent ability,opportunity and imminent jeopardy.

It is unfortunate that the LEO of today is required to make the daily life and death decisions inherent w/ the job w/out the support of the community they protect. Used to be the greatest job on earth. I don't see how you do it now.


mike r

No twist was intended. With all due respect, however, there is a distinction between what an individual officer fears and what fears are reasonable under the circumstances. One is a subjective matter, and has no bearing on justification, while the other is an objective matter on which hinges legal justification.

Good point, but was that the situation here?

The Lt. is correct. You are not. The reasonableness standard applies to the individual involved. Was the individual's fear of death or SBI to himself or another reasonable in the situation the individual was facing, including any justifications or other extenuating circumstances? If so, then lethal force is justified. It hinges on the individual involved, because the extenuating circumstances can involve the individual and his/her physical characteristics, the physical/psychological characteristics of the other person, the surrounding or precedent circumstances of the encounter, and a host of other issues.

I understand that you might have studied this and are citing the close-end text book rationale. However, that's not the legal rationale when it actually comes to real cases and real situations.

There is far too little known or shown in that one video to guess at justification or other circumstances. If there is another video, I'd like to see it.

Maybe.

Arguably, yes. The officers responded to a domestic dispute/assault call about the suspect/deceased armed with a knife assaulting the mother of his child in the house behind him. The other reports on this shoot are indicating that the suspect/deceased had been tasered to no effect and was still wielding the knife in the hand that cannot be seen in this video.

If there is another video, especially one closer and from a better angle, I'd like to see it.

We are not far from being in agreement. It may, in fact, be a mere matter of semantical ambiguity as to the legal meaning of "reasonable" in this context. In the law, reasonable means by an objective (not a subjective) standard.

Goog'd TX jury instruction on self-defense:

A person is justified in using deadly force against another if he is justified in using force against the other in self-defense; and when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary

"Reasonable belief" means a belief that would be held by an ordinary and prudent man in the same circumstances as the actor.

Appears to be an objective standard.

Hard to say exactly what happened in the moment before the shots were fired, but clearly something alarmed the officers as they both moved backwards as the shots were fired almost simultaneously.

Did he say, "now I'm going to carve you up like a Christmas Goose" while lowering his arm? (if that arm was even raised?


In looking at the totality of the circumstances:
-a person with a knife who had used on a female
-a person who is non complaint
-a person who was able to withstand efforts to obtain his compliance by less than lethal force.

Does not seem like it would be unreasonable for an officer to fire one round.

That's ridiculous. If you can't determine whether or not he was armed at 20 ft, you need to be in the Helen Keller Institute.

Chinese throwing stars would have posed a bigger threat than a knife at that distance.

The scared or panic stricken don't need to wear a badge...or this happens.

They better pray he was holding a grenade or they're toast.

Yes indeed.

I don't think you can know the whole story from that video. But what he was or did in the past is one thing, but you had two cops a distance away with two guns leveled on the guy with his hands up. He could have been bad mouthing them a lot, but he was still a distance away with two cops that had him cold with there weapons, clear shots. I think they better have a dang good reason for them taking those shots at that point in time. I didn't see him trying to get back in the house, and the justification part is goona get sticky i think. And yes, i have a long time ago faced similar situations.

I'm hoping like heck there is more too it.

Fact is, If that was an average Joe pulling the trigger under those circumstances, he'd be spending the rest of his life in prison.

From what can be seen in the video, the cops made a very poor decision.

Had that guy been black, 5 cities would be on fire tonight.

It looks terrible on the surface. Damn.

Point: an everyday citizen would be under an affirmative duty to retreat if he could do so in complete safety to himself. Police are NOT under such obligation. They,once on scene, are obligated to follow the incident through. NO retreat.

Citizens of the state of Texas have no duty to retreat.

Latest updates....

1) Second video reportedly shows perp with knife in hand when hands were raised.

2) At least one, possibly both officers had already deployed their tasers to no effect.

3) Paramedic also on scene reported perp attacking officers, also reported perp announcing intention to have the officers kill him.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...-of-fatal-BCSO-6480596.php#photo-8493568

So, an eye witness was there that supports the shoot. Non-lethal means had already been used and proven ineffective. The suspect/deceased was also still armed.

That might change things.

Except to the "expurts" here

If there is indeed another video clearly showing what a "good shoot" this is then the cops are truly baiting for not releasing it, why all of the secrets?

Why wait till the city burns to say see " its all good", we didn't just shoot him.

If they don't have the skills, maybe the news crew could broadcast it for them.

Because that's how things work with evidence. It doesn't get released immediately


You do know the cops didn't release the first video right?

That's fine & dandy, only problem with that is he was not attempting to approach the officers.

So it's a mute point.

Unless you're refusing to read it out loud, it'd have to be a moot point.

Because thats how its done? Really!

That's why the big trust issue keeps coming up, there is no reason as to not end the speculation now, unless there is some thing not to be shown.

I have news for you. If you have just cut somebody up and are standing 20' away from a cop with a knife...you better not twitch, 'cause killing you will be justified.

20 feet is about a second and a half sprint.

Unfortunately this is real life, not an episode episode of Law and order or NCIS where evidence is found, processed and dispositions made all within an hours time-span

That video will be reviewed by an forensic scientist for verification and authenticity, it will be broken down and dissected by investigators numerous times to see if it corroborate with statements and myriad of other things. Those all take time AND precidence over public outcry or perceived trust issues

Are you a girl ?

if not,....

You strike me as the type of cat (puzzy) that would complain about your ice cream being too goddam cold.

WTF do you LIVE, anyway ?

GTC

Jimy sounds like a wannabe very important person who had a cop fart in his Wheaties at an influential time in his life.

For the record, the video you're seeing was sold for a profit by the dude with the cell phone, so it's now public. The second video was turned over to the police to release as they see fit.

My hats off to you Greg,

Likewise, hereabouts.

Justified does not make it right. Just makes it legal...

Y'all have no idea about the hole you're digging in the eyes of average joes who are supportive of law enforcement but don't like justification of abuse.

Where do I start with that gem? Average Joes, the hole I'm digging or "justification of abuse"?

Let me see if I get this right.

If I don't attack a woman with a knife, fight the cops, brush off getting tasered and still have a knife, then my odds of not being shot increase exponentially?

As is so often said here on the Campfire:

SPOT ON.

Seems reasonable to me, but apparently not to the average Joe. Nice to know I ain't average!

I can't help that the average Joe thinks that he'd do it differently. I'm not trying to be mean, hateful or overly aggressive. I'm just reflecting years of training and experience.

If Joe wants to come do this job, and get his ass cut or stabbed, I'll be happy to go back into retirement and make room for the guy who thinks he can re-invent the wheel.

One other thing that the average Joe doesn't know. Not counting any other officer I have worked with over the past 22 years, I can say with complete honesty that I cannot count the people that I was justified in shooting, but did not. I've used pepper spray, maglites, kitchen chairs and my fists. I've begged, pleaded and prayed to keep from shooting folks. I've only had to shoot one.

I will, however, repeat the statement made by Pat, which I echoed. If you assault your wife with a knife. Endanger a kid with same, refuse to drop said knife when I tell you to do so at gun point and then do any little thing I believe to be an act of aggression, I will shoot you.

Absolutely no offense to Okanagan because I think he's a pretty good dude, but if a person doesn't agree with the above statement, which directly reflects the now known facts of this situation, that person needs their head and/or balls examined for deficiencies.

I think those average Joe's he speaks of should go down and sign up for a ride along on a C line tour on a Friday night

You ain't, but the "average Joes" I know would just shoot the guy for what he did before they got there. That's why they ain't cops.

And I should add that I absolutely meant no offense to Okanagan. I have found him to be a gentleman here on the fire and I'd be happy to shake his hand at a campfire meet.

Without a doubt, there are a great many good people in this country who have ideas of fairness and goodness they learned from Sunday School, their parents, The Lone Ranger and John Wayne. I do not mock them in the least. I honestly wish our Country could return to those ideals.

Until it does so, however, we are left to put ourselves between those who would prey on our children, our elderly and those who cannot protect themselves.

I still believe, all these years later, that this is a fight worth fighting, and that if we do it right, we can go back to being the police from Mayberry.

If we do not gain control, however, it cannot be done. Andy Taylor didn't carry a gun because he did not have to. The citizens of Mayberry respected him. Even those who passed through, respected the law enough to leave when he indicated it was in their best interest.

All I know is that we cannot win by knuckling under to the wolves.

I can't even imagine what cops have to go through today.

Hell, the grief I received from some parents whilst driving a bus was comical. Somehow one is supposed to drive a 15 ton vehicle, SAFELY, with kids from ages 4-18 all the time watching the children's EVERY move.

It's pretty much the same thing.

Lots and lots of people wanting to second guess and pick apart every decision made by police.

The unfortunate by product will be police who avoid actually doing the job. The folks who suffer the most will be the good people in the crap neighborhoods who have no one to control the a-holes because the police are afraid to be the police.

There is a saying, "We get the government we deserve," some will get the police response they deserve.

Yes, reminds me how many times my mother and wife have been cuffed, tazed, dog bit and throw belly first in a muddy roadside ditch.

UHHHH, guess that would be 0, hmmmmm, wonder if it's because they follow the law?

Here's a quiz, which of the following would you consider the most dangerous:

1) Being pulled over 10 times by police in a year

2) Walking, alone, unarmed through downtown Detroit at midnight.


GO


Edit to add: Curdog's response doesn't count

I'll take door #2 FTW Alex.

Well good, because I keep having to refrain from saying how much these situations remind me of incidents in school.

Not that we've had kids running around stabbing people but stuff happens, and could happen any time. Not every week, but a few incidents every school year.

What you have is situations where you're trying to get agitated, violent people to desist and comply.

That guy to me was acting so far off his rocker that I believe the Cops showed admirable restraint in not shooting him sooner.

JMHO,

Birdwatcher

That's funny [bleep] there !!

so,....

Is there a "Shrine" set up where he fell, yet,...stuffed toys, plastic flowers, votive candles, etc ?

GTC

You guys ain't got a fuggin clue!!

By the looks of the deceased (while still alive), he appears to be an outlier...

IMHO, those describing the perp as sluggish seemingly ain't watched the video. Lotta fat guys like that down here, the fact that hog lard is the #1 ingredient in most all Tex-Mex being a likely contributing factor.

Its also come out in the news today also that the perp had just previous to the filmed sequence attacked one of the responding deputies with the knife but had been blocked by a shield device the deputy had. To the point that bystanders were wondering why they had not shot the perp sooner.

IIRC the perp had prior arrests for assault including on a campus police officer.

Seems like the two deputies will rightfully receive a pass on this one, sounds to me like they might even deserve a commendation.

Birdwatcher

whar ya goin wit that knife Leroy?


"headed to a gunfight"



sheeeitt (best Bristoe imitiation I can muster)

Greg, I'm a lil tight this month, could you send some toy candles in my name? thanks in advance

PM Jimy, he's handling the Shrine donations, and organizing a series of memorial car-washes.

GTC

I think I will wait for all the facts to come out before I jump on a wagon. Not some rat cell phone video.

Not seeing a lot of what you call "jumping on a wagon" in this thread. As for myself, I merely stated that, based on what appears to have transpired on that video clip, a charge of murder didn't seem inappropriate. That doesn't mean I'm ready to lynch the officers. All it means is that it seems to merit such a charge being presented to a grand jury, followed by a trial by jury, should the grand jury so decide. Even assuming a knife in the hand, and threatening words (as some have suggested occurred), given the apparent absence of any sort of aggressive move on the part of the deceased immediately preceding the shooting, that would seem, at minimum, appropriate.

All homicides are presented to a Grand Jury in the State of Texas.

Update:

Hawkeye's volunteered to handle the cookies,cupcakes, and
soft drinks for the nightly shrine memorial gatherings.

Thx Hawk !

GTC

Then there you have it. In the mean time, folks here have been discussing what appears to have transpired in the video clip. I'm not seeing anyone ready to lynch anyone, which one would assume has been the case based on the reactions of some in the police contingent here.

Bluedreaux is as confused as ever, so nothing has changed there...I can see where reading aloud is a benefit to him.

There are a lot of unanswered questions and if this was so cut & dried like many here are espousing, why are other police officers troubled by the video?

Did they have a legal right to shoot to kill him? Maybe. That doesn't make it any less irresponsible- I'm still waiting for the answer as to why they acted when they did...

The video clearly shows he wasn't attempting to approach them. He was standing there holding up his hands.

WE don't know what was being said and will now get only one side of that story. He must have been really good at telling scary tales, because his body language at the time of the shooting doesn't indicate he posed an immediate threat to those officers or anyone else.

I like cops. I really like responsible ones.

Did we ever get to see the 2nd video?

I guess some folks won't think justified till they been there/done that.



That's my gun hand.

20 feet goes by faster than the 1st time you had sex.

How the fugk do black cowboys end up in Milwaukee?




Travis

Then shoot an e-mail to the people that shot him.

Because nobody here can answer it.



Dave

So given the above mentioned statement from a witness that he had already attacked one of the deputies with a knife. How would you, in all of your vast law enforcement training handled the situation given what we know that

* Tasers had been used and were ineffective

* he had already attacked one officer with a knife

* already assaulted the mother of his child, which was the catalyst for the police responding

* it is the accepted standard that anyone within 21 feet of you armed with a knife is a legitimate lethal threat to you

By driving through Chicago

not enough in video for me also dude just cut up a women with an infant present .that kind of action can not come out good for him .

Same video...a little more info.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/0...lists/san-antonio-shooting-bexar-county/

Or to paraphrase: "I don't have a fugging clue about what really happened but I know it ain't right because I watched a cell phone video taken from 200 yards away."

You're a walking Einstein, dude.

They are saying that people are analyzing the 2nd video to determine if he had a knife and if he was getting froggy when he got shot.

Sadly, the 24 hour campfire could have done that a whole lot quicker.

While that is indeed tactical wisdom well worth knowing, it's not a legal principle. What the law demands is some sort of action by said armed man, immediately preceding the lethal force self-defense/defense-of-others, that would indicate to a reasonable man that violence of a sort that could cause serious harm or death, is imminent. No such action is visible on the clip. Previous actions don't cut it, even if they might lower the bar for what a reasonable man would classify as an imminently threatening action.

I know all these laws relating to lethal force justification make a policeman's job more difficult and dangerous, but that's the price we pay for living in a society where the police aren't a law unto themselves.

Well, if you were to slash the throat of a woman and cut up an infant then stand between me and those severely injured folks so I cannot bring them aid, after 1 try with the taser, you are a dead man. You no longer matter. I don't g.a.f what the world thinks then, the innocent injured will be given aid. You will be given a funeral.

Totality of circumstances.

That's what will be reviewed.

Same as every other use of force incident.



Travis

Quite appropriate, so long as it's not a strictly internal investigation, i.e., so long as the fix isn't in. I'm guessing there will be a grand jury murder charge on this one, though. Just too over the line for them to get away with a fix.

At least they went to the right house and a dog wasn't shot.

I think that it's time to cut down all these fargin' power poles, so we can see what's going on when delivery drivers with cheap cell phones become THE deterministic force in the evaluation of an incident of this sort.

Maybe we need a law requiring delivery drivers to take a course or two in cinematography, and on scene reporting.

GTC

apparently, the problem is Øbamaphone.

can't shoot enough frames or sufficient resolution.

I think we need to pay more taxes so the people with free phones can have better instruments to record the po po.

Nothing of substance to add. Unable to comprehend or refute what is clearly visible to everyone = stupid response.

Bet that tiny nerve bundle of yours was working in overdrive to crank out that penetrating reply. Laffin.

I think you take the Einstein title by 4 lengths.

Greyhound....

Looks pretty bad on the face of it from the video. If he did just cut up a woman and a kid, I could GAF if they shot him or not.

It'll go to a GJ and the cops will have to answer some questions. Life goes on (except for the dead guy......his kinda stopped on the sidewalk).

has been a very good life for me, not having had to resort to violence very often to protect my loved ones.


when the SHTF you don't always get to pick who's got your back.

but the words of this jabroni I've quoted above are what I'm looking for.


if it's my wife and child or daughter and grand daughter that have been injured and there's a knife wielding moron that won't get outa the way to provide potential life saving treatment to them, I want him outa the way PRONTO.


if those are my loved ones, the only confusion for me is why didn't you azzholes shoot him sooner?


sadly it's how we've been conditioned to think far too often, "oh the poor perp, F the folks he's harmed"


Well said friend Jim, well said indeed for my tastes

It isn't just tactical wisdom. There is legal precedent behind it

It has been and will be an accepted standard

If he wasn't acting threateningly why did they suddenly retreat right before shooting?

to avoid blood splatter.

Totality of circumstances.

Always and forever.




Travis

Holy fugk that made me laugh.

You racist fugk.




Dave

It's that simple.......

I guess I'll base my future actions on my own knowledge/experience (rooted in years of wisdom from those who have BTDT) rather than the rantings of those who could've/would've/should've........

How exactly am I confused?

FIXT!!!!!

And, based on their girth, a head start for the local Taco-Tuesday especial.

Please know that I value your opinionated opinion highly. I can't imagine how great you must see yourself to know exactly what happened. You're my hero.

Looks pretty bad. The guy is running around aggressively and finally stops and puts his hands in the air and is immediately shot? What ever was in his hands after they were raised was in his hands before they were raised when he would have been more of a threat. I predict the cops are in deep shizzle.

I don't buy a motionless guy with his hands raised is a threat to two cops with guns drawn and leveled. In practice we could draw and shoot a target 25 feet away in .5 of a second. With their guns leveled reaction time would be a tine fraction of that. Around here cops with the drop on a guy with three guns waited to shoot him until he leveled the gun to shoot them which is a much more reasonable standard.

It doesn't matter what you "buy."

You don't know anything.




Travis

A half second draw out of a cop holster would be uber. Bob Vogel would blush. It's more like 1.5 seconds for LE average then add about a .75 sec reaction time to figure out you're in the Shiite in the first place. Pretty sure my old ass can cross 20 feet in 2.25 seconds.

don't be confusing the issue with facts Mac


still think Jim/EvilTwin has the right take on it.


azzhole with a knife is standing in the way to provide aid to those he's already harmed.

taser didn't work, well the firearms did


as it should be.

Many people are aware that the US Army first adopted the 1911 .45 ACP because their .38 revolvers weren't dropping charging Moros with sufficient regularity even with good hits, the mortally wounded Moros living long enough to inflict mayhem with their edged weapons.

What isn't widely reported is that the .45 didn't work much better.



Ya, levels the playing field, fair play and all that....

Birdwatcher

No you couldn't.

For sure randy. Jim is spot on.

He's uber.

maybe 1.5 if he practiced.

Pretty much lost all credibility with that little gem Solly.

The local paper had a story on the background of the deceased going back twenty years. Father IIRC is a retired Cop. Long history of drug use, forcibly evicted from parent's home in early twenties due to drug use and violence, including towards his mother.

Had even charged a University Cop with a knife more than ten years ago with the stated intention of getting himself shot, and that was just for a noise violation on campus for the sound system in his vehicle.

Had some years previously perpetrated an armed robbery at a McDonald's by climbing through the drive-in window and holding pruning shears to the throat of an employee.

I have no idea what twist of fortune gave this guy a wife and then a child (three weeks old at the time of this incident) but if there was ever anyone determined to f&&k up, it appears to have been him.

That weren't his house, he went off when they told him he couldn't be there.

Birdwatcher

Finally, the only appropriate response to this drivel on whether a non-compliant armed felon within lethal distance of 2 officers carrying out their duty constitutes a justified shooting. And all this from a supposedly conservative group that should know better?

Sherifff David Clarke needs to be considered as the next US Attorney General or at least FBI Director. It's time to get sanity back into the discussion about policing the criminal element.

SPOT ON!!

I'm still laffin at .5

Actually I believe him


Sundials are making a huge comeback

After watching both videos carefully, I offer the following:

1. Unlike a lot of the shootings by cop which we discuss here, I can see why the Campfire Cop Contingent defends these two cops.

2. I'm still looking for a SKINNY cop who shoots somebody.

3. That lady Sheriff could eat corn on the cob thru a knothole in the fence.

So you dont like coppers and fat folk Cur?

Just injecting some levity in the thread, Gunner.

But... now that you've asked..... while I have close friends and Kin in L.E., I know that they don't think like the rest of us.

To become a cop, a MAN has to overcome his natural aversion to messing in other folk's business. It goes downhill from there.

LOL, thanks, just trying to see why coppers are viewed in a bad light, all I've ever seen out of them is a bunch of men racing in to help someone.

To become a cop some MEN follow their aversion to seeing good people become victims and actually participate instead of spectate.

and whine.


mike r

But I'm sure you realize that there are OTHER vantage points not so favorable to the Bureaucrats With Badges.

I like the ones who just figure they have a job, like everybody else.

I've made it damn near 74 years without ever sending for one of you.

Who is "whining"?

Totality of the circumstance includes the exigency of the circumstances.


Travis is right on.As Was ET.

Yes, Ive heard, gotta think those just got promoted outta "mall cop school" and got a real first job.

Well no schit, Matlock!




Travis

Just trying to help...


And what do I get.....?


Ridicule and name calling.


I plan on immediately turning your name over to William Tibbe. He has connections in Law Enforcement- FBI Infrastructure Protection...and he knows how to handle your kind.

Please don't.

Speaking to FBI agents is more boredom than I can handle.




Travis

Yeah but they're a case study in Narcissism .....next best thing to Naval Aviators....

Yes, we're all aware that criminals view the police differently than regular folks. You've told us all about it.

Perp raises his hands and they shoot,

I didn't want to see any more of that belly either,

Dude wears a t-shirt and he lives.

What crime have I ever been convicted of that half of this forum hasn't been guilty of?

Conspiracy to commit vagrancy, Felonious mopery with intent to gawk.

I'm sure the agents sent to speak with you are not representative of their agency. Rather, being sent to speak with you indicates the agent is being disciplined by his supervisor.