Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Originally Posted by kaywoodie
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.

A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.

Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.

And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.


Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so!

There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds!


Ya, accounts say Plains Indians fired from a bow held horizontal and fired by "feel" or "instinct" rather than sighting down the arrow. Texas Ranger Captain RIP Ford in his memoirs places the bow and revolver on a rough parity, An Indian on a running horse could put multiple arrows into the air in quick succession and hit your horse or you at 100 yards. Ford specifies that at 60 yards or more, if you witnessed the Indian in the act of loosing the arrow, an active man could dodge. Less than 60 yards or if you weren't looking, no so much.

IMHO the impact of the revolver on Plains combat is way overblown. 50% odds aren't very good for a career Ranger, and the big problem was getting within range of a fleeing Indian with anything, let alone a handgun. The rifle ruled the Plains, what you did is get within range, dismount, and shoot the other guy off his horse.
The Colt Patterson's were no doubt, less effective than subsequent models. The Walker and the ensuing Dragoons were much better guns and when the Navy came along, combining effectiveness with a much more manageable size, then you have guns which could certainly change the outcome of a given close-quarters engagement, especially in a running fight on horseback where rifles couldn't be brought into serious play. Ask the damnyankees that faced the Missouri "bushwhackers" about the effectiveness of cap and ball revolvers. This plus the fact that you aren't necessarily talking about weapons making the opposing force "better" than the Indians, but rather putting them on a parity with them in a running fight. Before that, a heavy Plains rifle was outclassed by the Comanches' bow and arrow in a horseback battle, as far as firepower. This particular battle demonstrates how the rifle ruled the field of battle anytime you were talking about fortified positions vs. the Indians attacking with no cover. Much is made of the extreme shot, but the battle was already over by then and the Indians would have soon quit the field anyway. Even without the Sharps rifles, the hunters probably would have won, even with old antique Plains rifles.