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Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: BillyGoatGruff] #10202636 07/27/15
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ingwe Offline
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Looks like the links came up anyway!

Ive seen very little of Chuck Hawkes....first impression was that he was an ass clown.


He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.
BP-B2

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: ingwe] #10202640 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by ingwe


The Taylor KO is kinda hilarious.....


Does the Taylor KO drop off more for the second deer hit on a two-fer?

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50gr Sierra SP / 222 rem.

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: RWE] #10202648 07/27/15
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The Taylor KO drops off completely after the first deer is struck by your diminutive .222 and cnc bullet!

I don't know what she told you, but that second deer isn't really dead!

Last edited by ingwe; 07/27/15.

He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: ingwe] #10202672 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by ingwe
The Taylor KO drops off completely after the first deer is struck by your diminutive .222 and cnc bullet!

I don't know what she told you, but that second deer isn't really dead!

We ate a live deer? sick

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: RWE] #10202684 07/27/15
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You must have. How could it be dead with a Taylor KO of 0?


Thats barbaric! eek


He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.
IC-A

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Formidilosus] #10202924 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by obie458
What is "way more power"? Can you describe what that means and how it relates?

Reduced 7mm-08 ammo shooting a 140gr bullet at 2365fps will have 1738 ft. lbs. and a Taylor KO factor of 13,

120gr bullet @ 2675fps will have 1906 ft. lbs and a Taylor KO of 13.

A .223 shooting a 60gr bullet @ 3160fps will have 1330 ft. lbs. and a Taylor KO of 6.

I know many people regard these numbers as nothing more than numbers but many others regard them as a measure of the ability to cleanly kill an animal.



How many big game animals have you killed with .22 caliber centerfires?

Contrary to popular belief, terminal ballistics isn't guesswork. In the last 14 years (let alone the since the late 80's) more research and money has been spent on how bullets actually kill than in all of human history.

Neither "ft-lbs" nor "Taylor knockout" has any relevance on killing in any shap or form. Both of those tell you about as much on tissue destruction as the phase of the moon. Those who believe in either one of those need to either educate themselves on the subject, or kill more. Usually both.

How well a bullet kills is based on two things- what a projectile hits, and how much tissue damage occurs. The last is loosely based upon impact velocity and bullet construction (contrary to popular belief- deep penetrating bullets such as Barnes, etc., do not always, and frequently do not damage more tissue, and therefor they generally kill slower than rapid expanding/fragmenting bullets as long as sufficient penetration is reached with both).

The wound channels produced by some .224 diameter bullets are horrific and WAY more than sufficient to kill 200-300 pound mammals.


As has been said before-

Placement, bullet, headstamp. In that order.



Form-,

What bullet would you recommend for deer and feral pigs for kids using a 223?

Also, what are your thoughts for bullet selection for the 308 for game?




Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: obie458] #10203072 07/27/15
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obie,

The Taylor KO Formula was not only devised for solid bullets only, but primarily for shooting elephants in the head. Many people don't know this because they've only read Taylor's second, and far more popular, book, AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, but it was plainly stated in his first book.

So the KO Formula has zip to do with shooting deer.

The same can be said about Chuck Hawkes.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Berettaman] #10203300 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I concede!

The problem with trying to reduce "killing power" to an engineering problem is that animals aren't steel targets, much less bridges.

And even when somebody comes up with a formula that might have some real exoerience behind it, such as John Taylor's "Knock-Out" formula, it gets used incorrectly. Taylor initially published it in his first book, specifically stating that it only applied to solid bullets on large game from buffalo to elephant. Trouble was, he didn't mention that in his second book, and now every other SCI member quotes "Taylor numbers" when explaining why some cartridge isn't truly adequate for anything from dik-dik to Siberian moose.

In my younger years I even formulated a killing-power formula, but had the good sense not to publish it. Since then I've come up with another, which I have published: B-2L=D

B is bullet, 2L is two lungs, and D is dead.


Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Berettaman] #10203318 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
My more recent killing power formula is the 90/9/1: 90% is bullet placement, 9% is bullet performance, and 1% is headstamp.

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Berettaman] #10203556 07/27/15
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It's all Bob Ruark's fault. He shot a pig in the butt with a .22 in 1951 with poor result, wrote a book titled "Use A .470", and the po' lil' .22 has had a bad name since.

IC-B

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: jeffbird] #10203612 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by jeffbird


Form-,

What bullet would you recommend for deer and feral pigs for kids using a 223?

Also, what are your thoughts for bullet selection for the 308 for game?






It all depends on what you are looking for. Some like more "explosive" bullets that tends to drop game, some like deep penetrators that always or almost always exit. You can have two people using the exact same bullets from the same guns at the same animals and one says it works great and the other thinks it's a failure.

The problem starts with most not understanding what projectiles actually do in tissue and what the wounding mechanisms are.


I have used most/almost all of the bullets designed for big game or duty use (as the requirements are generally the same) and most work fine.

I select bullets based upon how well they kill, which really means how much tissue they destroy. What I'm looking for in a bullet is the widest possible wound channel with penetration that will consistently make to the offside of a quartering deer, including potentially through bone. I do not care about stem to stern, or vice versa. As you go up in caliber/weight you can get softer and softer bullets that still meet the criteria above, and conversely as you go down you tend to lose penetration and need to start using tougher bullets. Same applies to game build and weight.


As Mule Deer stated most any will work on deer, but I prefer not using varmint bullets as they generally don't make it to the offside and exit though they tend to kill well. . In 223 any of the bonded or controlled expansion bullets work. The 64gr Nosler BSB being the flagship of the community. However, the readily available Federal 62gr Fusion load is very, very good and has an ideal blend of penetration and expansion and is usually quite accurate. That's usually the one I point most towards as it's so easy to come by. If you don't mind a bit less penetration, though still completely adequate, the Hornady 75gr AMAX and Sierra 77gr TMK's are very good.

If you like more penetration the Barnes TSX/TTSX's are great. Generally with monos I like dropping weight and upping velocity to help with expansion, however I tend towards the 70gr TSX due to it having a lower expansion threshold and the fact that I will take shots long enough where it starts to matter.



Same to 308's. I want the widest wound channel that will generally make it to the offside on a quartering shot. The 168gr Hornady AMAX does outstanding in this regard, and I consider it almost perfect performance on deer size animals. I also don't have an issue using that combo on bigger game as you tend to get good penetration from the base of the bullet. Yes, if you hit bone there will be a bit of meat loss but losing a little meat is a solid trade off for how well it kills for me.

I also like Nosler BallisticTips, Lapua 155gr Scenars (though they're a bit tougher than I prefer), Nosler Partitions, Bergers, Etc..... The Barnes 110gr TAC TTSX "Blacktip" meant for the 300Blackout is also a neat bullet if you lean that way, as the pedals shear off (increasing the wound channel) yet the base continues penetrating.




Long reply, yet I wanted you to know why I tend to choose certain bullets.

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Formidilosus] #10203622 07/27/15
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I'm going to put my friend with the recoil shy son on the trail of the 62 grain Fusion load.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: jeffbird] #10203640 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by jeffbird


Form-,

What bullet would you recommend for deer and feral pigs for kids using a 223?

Also, what are your thoughts for bullet selection for the 308 for game?





I'm not Form (thank God, grin) but when my son and nephew were little young guys from 8-12'ish, they killed lots of TX Hill Country whitetails and a few pigs with Winchester Supreme power point factory ammo. I believe it was 64 grains. They worked great.

Not sure if you're going the tacticoool route with the .308, but if not you can't go wrong with 165gr Accubond or partition bullets.

Last edited by JGRaider; 07/27/15.

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Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: JGRaider] #10203718 07/27/15
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so I am now closer to the 223. but I am still undecided on the flavor of rifle. opinions? good or bad?


What you do today is important, you are trading a day in the rest of your life for it.
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Berettaman] #10203744 07/27/15
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Ruger Predator in .223

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Berettaman] #10203748 07/27/15
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Howa's are 1-9". So are Hawkeyes.




Travis


Originally Posted by jaguartx
Keep sucking bleck ass with Travis
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: SamOlson] #10203806 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by SamOlson
If I had a kid I would buy them a Kimber MT and have it turned into a 22-250.




EXCELLENT advise! Spend a years worth of junior college tuition and STILL have a POS rifle.

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: Formidilosus] #10203808 07/27/15
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Originally Posted by Formidilosus

Long reply, yet I wanted you to know why I tend to choose certain bullets.


Understood and appreciated, as well as your reply JG.

I have no experience with the 223 on game and have some young nephews that are starting to hunt so the reply is appreciated.

I agree deer are comparatively easy to kill, so bullet selection is more driven by dealing with feral pigs here. Most of the ranches where I hunt require pigs to be shot on sight. Letting a pig walk can be grounds to be asked to leave and not return. I like to make sure they drop where they stand, and am not ok with wounding them or letting them die slow deaths.

On the 308, I was curious about your experience. I have shot more than 100 deer and pigs in the last several years helping with culling, management, and pig control efforts.

While many here likely will chime in with differing experiences, the 175 SMK has produced more consistent results for me than any other bullet and worked fine on animals out to 450 yards with one shot DRT's. In examining lots of wounds from them through the years, they seem prone to tumble through producing some dramatic wound channels. They always produce through and through wounds on deer, and I've yet to ever recover one from a deer. On pigs, shot in the skull, they penetrate into the brain and produce DRT results, but usually fragment and do not exit.

Thanks for the reply and you as well JG.

Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: jeffbird] #10204110 07/27/15
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jeffbird,

The 60gr. Hornady SP is hog killin' sumbitch. Cheap too.

The 53gr. Barnes TSX kills mule deer. Whatever that's worth to you.






Travis


Originally Posted by jaguartx
Keep sucking bleck ass with Travis
Re: Advice for kids rifle [Re: jeffbird] #10204126 07/27/15
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the 55 TTSX is a hog killer too, and capable of hitting even these small targets! grin


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He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.
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