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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I believe that armed law enforcement officers should be held to the highest standards. Their safety should come second to preserving the rights of citizens. Being confused, angry, ignorant, stupid, mentally ill, acting out, resisting, etc. does not forfeit your rights. The only entity empowered to restrict a person's right is a court of law.
Freedom is not free. It requires sacrifice and tolerance. Preserving the freedom of speech means that we've got to allow everyone to voice their opinions, without regard for the content. Preserving the right to bear arms, means that we're going to live in a society where citizens have access to dangerous weapons and that there's no practical way to prevent accidents and tragedy from resulting from this access. It's a give and take. Preserving religious freedoms means allowing others to practice religions differing from your own.
We celebrate those who serve in law enforcement. We do so because working in law enforcement is dangerous. In a free society law enforcement officers accept these risks, not out of benefit to themselves, but for societies' benefit. Their commitment is not transitory, they can't choose when to put themselves at risk and when not to. Bless them for serving.
The last few decades has seen Law enforcement become increasingly militarized. Law enforcement is well trained, well equipped, and well compensated. I applaud their service and sacrifice, but I do so realizing that they've choose to put the job before themselves and now have a duty to do so.
I must have missed where officers are supposed to take one for the team before they can do their job. Really, this is your response? Just because a person straps on a gun and pins a badge on doesn't mean they don't deserve to come home to their families at the end of a shift. You said: Their safety should come second to preserving the rights of citizens. Being confused, angry, ignorant, stupid, mentally ill, acting out, resisting, etc. does not forfeit your rights. The only entity empowered to restrict a person's right is a court of law.
What rights of the person in question were violated? Specifically to this event, FBI and OSP were tasked with the arrest on an arrest warrant of a list of people, known to likely armed, including the deceased. Upon being pulled over, one person exited the vehicle and was peacefully taken into custody. The deceased then resisted arrest by fleeing the scene, running a roadblock while nearly ramming an officer on foot. He exits his vehicle, then refuses to comply with the commands of officers tasked with his arrest. He repeatedly drops his hands to his coat or waist area and was summarily shot by the officers. Upon further investigation, the suspect had a loaded 9mm handgun in his coat pocket. Where were his rights violated? And how does this supposed violation of his rights supplant officer safety? Do you know what a strawman argument is?
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't think it matters whether he was armed or not. As was pointed out somewhere early on in this thread, he could have put his hand in his pocket, an detonated a device. Sound crazy?
The farmers were planning this for weeks, if not months. They proved that by having supplies to hold up in the building. Is it unreasonable to think that they could have created an explosive device? It's easy to know now what he did or didn't have. Let's look at what the officers did know, even aside from his public comments, actions, etc. Just look at the traffic stop.
Suspect vehicle stops initially. Sits for a period of time. What are they doing? Preparing a device? Drawing up a plan? Eating popcorn? Watching the debate? Who knows.
Suspect then drives away from police. To go where? Maybe just to draw more LEOs in, so he can kill as many as possible with the device and make a more profound statement?
Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. I'm guessing the LEOs weren't saying: "Raise your hands. Lower your hands. Turn this way. Now that way. Put your hands near you waste. Now near your pockets. Do the hokie-pokie." I assume this, based on the actions of the second suspect. He exits the vehicles, raises his hands, and tosses a weapon.
LEOs have a duty to us. They also have a duty to each other and their families. That is to get home safely. I'm sure there are bad LEOs out there, but I bet most don't take satisfaction in taking a life.
We weren't there. But if I wanted to comply with LEOs, I don't think that video shows how I'd go about it. Josey, BINGO! here's a winner. Now, stop being logical or someone will come along and ask you "how's that working for you". Geno PS, the campfire, at least the "Hunter's Campfire" portion of it, thrives on inanities. Please strive to keep it that way, some folks really enjoy it.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
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Joseywales, Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. Did you see the video from a chopper like I did or did you see a different one? I saw a guy get out of the car with his hands up. I saw his hands go down when he was killed.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Tracker
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Finicum exits with both hands held high and then appears to put both hands down near his waste area when he is shot. No effort at all to give him aid. Just leave him lay there and bleed to death... If you kept watching the video you'd see there were two other passengers that exited the white vehicle. So, do you think the officers should have rushed in and rendered aid knowing there's two more in the truck? Looks like after the other two occupants were taken into custody, the officers then approach the person that was shot. I wouldn't have done it any different . . .
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Campfire Ranger
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Joseywales, He was jumping like he had a squirrel in his shorts. Looked like a guy walking in deep snow to me.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Looked like he was trying to show that he was unarmed. Obviously, doing anything other than having your hands up and following orders to a tee is completely stupid, but then so is shooting someone who is not pointing a gun at you. The only part I don't get is why people are in favor of cops shooting people when they don't absolutely have to. The FBI knew this was going down. They should have had a better plan to get those people to court healthy. What they did should land them all in jail and their bosses fired. We are paying them to do a job, after all. Jeez, another contender in the stupid race. They're neck and neck comin' into the home stretch, folks. GTC Senor que vive cerca de la frontera, (I'm not in the mood to play keyboard games, so you get no accent marks today ) how many pages before we pick a winner? Is a bull owner more important than a "squatter" on Federal grassland? Do we start a pool re: eventual pages in this thread? Where is the anti-sluicer when we need his input? Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think the rest of the folks in his truck are lucky he didn't get them all shot driving at the the road block the way he did. The officer he almost hit looks to be trying to get out of the way because he thought the truck was going to ram the vehicles. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes. I saw something completely different. I saw an officer leap to the berm, so as to block or discourage the driver from from proceeding. kingston, assuming a reasonable level of sanity/intelligence.... YOU would do that? jump in front of a moving vehicle (a full sized truck no less) " to block or discourage the driver from from proceeding"? I seriously doubt it. I saw what the other person did, the officer in question thought the vehicles would be rammed and dove to the side. Geno PS, forgive please, I see I am late to this party, questioning the reasonableness of your statement re: jumping in front of a moving truck. Others have already taken this idea up with you. I have seen some of you response to said others. I now have another theory. A humorous one. The officer in question, let's call him Officer Jumpy, suffers from restless leg syndrome and the twitches needed relief. So, he did the "Time Warp" . Lavoy had already steered toward and onto the berm before jumpy lept from safety into the snowy abyss...
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire Ranger
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Without a doubt the guy got out with his hands in the air. If I was on a jury the two shooters who go down for murder. I can't pretend to know what happened there but if the ONLY thing you saw was the guy's hands in the air, I now know why you need a 80x scope to shoot 200 yards.
WWP53D
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They certainly could be. Jumps out with hands spread (surrendering) and gets out into the opening (not hiding or taking cover), turning around some (to be visible). Maybe even indicating that he's got a gun in his pocket so that they're not wondering or thinking he's hiding anything. One (or more) of the cops is yelling something like "Show me the gun!" or "Take it out carefully and put it on the ground!" and another (or more) is yelling something like "Freeze!" or "Hands Up!" or something. Conflicting instructions, which cause him to reach towards a coat and away a coupla of times.
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Possibly. But why did the second suspect have no trouble complying? He exited the vehicle, hands raise. reached down, tossed his gun and live to tell about it. Audio would be nice. The fact is , this guy could have surrender up the road a piece, but drove away. He's already shown his intent NOT to comply. I think the bottom line is, he put himself in this situation and the LEOs err on the side of caution, to keep themselves safe, I don't have an issue with that. In fact, I'm concerned that the officer in the tree line would walk out in the open, while other armed suspects are in the vehicle. He put himself at risk there, or so it appeared.
"Honey, when I die, sell my guns for what they're worth and not what I told you I paid for them."
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Without a doubt the guy got out with his hands in the air. If I was on a jury the two shooters who go down for murder. I can't pretend to know what happened there but if the ONLY thing you saw was the guy's hands in the air, I now know why you need a 80x scope to shoot 200 yards. that was my thought too. hard to miss the reaching for the left jacket pocket twice...
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I pronounced this a good shoot several pages ago based only on the video. Everybody stop posting. Quit posting. Thread closed. jmcgrath01 sbcglobal.net To Undisclosed-Recipient@ Jan 28 at 12:55 PM Please pass this on to your Dentist: It is with great pleasure that I would like to introduce you to Cerma Dental Tool Nano Technology Ceramic Treatments. It is available in both drops and a spray. image image I sell either one for $40. The bottle contains 1.25 oz. which equates to about 1,000 drops, the spray comes in a 4 oz. pump bottle. Please note that our Dental Lube and Air Tool Lube are the same product. The same thing applies to our spray version. It is marketed as a gun spray but metal is metal and it is the same formulation as the drops version... It is just marketing :>} One question I always get, pertains to FDA approval. The truth is that any and all dental lubricants are not FDA approved... the components that make them may be food grade FDA approved. Kind of like using just the best ingredients to make a cake. All of that theory goes out the window when you are talking metallurgy. We are impregnating silica carbide (ceramics) into the metal. It is inert and pickles up to 6 microns deep into the metal based on its Nano particle size. It is attracted to the carbon and carbon acids deep inside the metal. Once those molecules bind, they then cure and this is accelerated by heat. As clean as you think your tools are, you will be shocked by how much dirt is pulled out of the metal during the initial Cerma treatment(s). Under no circumstances does the Cerma air tool metal treatment come into contact with the patient. As with your current lubricant, you lube the tool, blow it out, and then autoclave cure it. You never add additional lubricant after the autoclave sterilization. Loose or fluid lubricant could contaminate the bond between fillings and teeth. I understand these concerns, but with all due respect, they are unfounded when we talk metallurgy instead of lubrication. We “lubricate” through the perfection of metal surfaces. No residual fluid remains. For those that are creatures of habit, if you would feel more comfortable you could do both techniques together until you build your trust in Cerma. You could first apply the Cerma metal treatment, blow it out and autoclave. Finally, you could then re-apply your old lubricant, blow it out and again autoclave. You will feel you have covered all bases, but the real improvements will be due to the Cerma and the secondary traditional “lubricant” is just a psychological crutch. I asked for a double autoclaving so that your lubricant does not mix with my ceramic chemistry when it is in a liquid state. Once cured it become “bullet proof” and impervious to all chemicals and oils. I believe within a very short period of time, you will never go back to traditional lubricants again. You will be also treating the tips of drills, dental picks, and what ever you do not want to wear or just to reduce the porosity so that bacteria has no place to hide. Cerma will not affect the brittleness of your metals. It is all good... trust me on this. Cerma inventor Mr. John Murray spent 15 – 20 years building air tools for the dental industry. He is uniquely qualified. Please call him at 310 617-5757. James McGrath 203 376-1152
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Joseywales, Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. Did you see the video from a chopper like I did or did you see a different one? I saw a guy get out of the car with his hands up. I saw his hands go down when he was killed. Most people by now have seen the zoomed and enhanxed FBI footage where he undoubtably reaches into his jacket twice prior to absorbing 3 rds. If one looks at the Oregonian footage on Youtube its all very clear unless one has already made up their mind via subpar footage
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it was pretty plain even in the un-edited version.
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Joseywales, Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. Did you see the video from a chopper like I did or did you see a different one? I saw a guy get out of the car with his hands up. I saw his hands go down when he was killed. Most people by now have seen the zoomed and enhanxed FBI footage where he undoubtably reaches into his jacket twice prior to absorbing 3 rds. If one looks at the Oregonian footage on Youtube its all very clear unless one has already made up their mind via subpar footage Maybe it's clear to you. I still see no reason to shoot him. I saw no gun. One can only speculate what he was doing with his hands. Eitherway, I'm not convinced that he was a threat.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I pronounced this a good shoot several pages ago based only on the video. Everybody stop posting. Quit posting. Thread closed. jmcgrath01 sbcglobal.net To Undisclosed-Recipient@ Jan 28 at 12:55 PM Please pass this on to your Dentist: It is with great pleasure that I would like to introduce you to Cerma Dental Tool Nano Technology Ceramic Treatments. It is available in both drops and a spray. image image I sell either one for $40. The bottle contains 1.25 oz. which equates to about 1,000 drops, the spray comes in a 4 oz. pump bottle. Please note that our Dental Lube and Air Tool Lube are the same product. The same thing applies to our spray version. It is marketed as a gun spray but metal is metal and it is the same formulation as the drops version... It is just marketing :>} One question I always get, pertains to FDA approval. The truth is that any and all dental lubricants are not FDA approved... the components that make them may be food grade FDA approved. Kind of like using just the best ingredients to make a cake. All of that theory goes out the window when you are talking metallurgy. We are impregnating silica carbide (ceramics) into the metal. It is inert and pickles up to 6 microns deep into the metal based on its Nano particle size. It is attracted to the carbon and carbon acids deep inside the metal. Once those molecules bind, they then cure and this is accelerated by heat. As clean as you think your tools are, you will be shocked by how much dirt is pulled out of the metal during the initial Cerma treatment(s). Under no circumstances does the Cerma air tool metal treatment come into contact with the patient. As with your current lubricant, you lube the tool, blow it out, and then autoclave cure it. You never add additional lubricant after the autoclave sterilization. Loose or fluid lubricant could contaminate the bond between fillings and teeth. I understand these concerns, but with all due respect, they are unfounded when we talk metallurgy instead of lubrication. We “lubricate” through the perfection of metal surfaces. No residual fluid remains. For those that are creatures of habit, if you would feel more comfortable you could do both techniques together until you build your trust in Cerma. You could first apply the Cerma metal treatment, blow it out and autoclave. Finally, you could then re-apply your old lubricant, blow it out and again autoclave. You will feel you have covered all bases, but the real improvements will be due to the Cerma and the secondary traditional “lubricant” is just a psychological crutch. I asked for a double autoclaving so that your lubricant does not mix with my ceramic chemistry when it is in a liquid state. Once cured it become “bullet proof” and impervious to all chemicals and oils. I believe within a very short period of time, you will never go back to traditional lubricants again. You will be also treating the tips of drills, dental picks, and what ever you do not want to wear or just to reduce the porosity so that bacteria has no place to hide. Cerma will not affect the brittleness of your metals. It is all good... trust me on this. Cerma inventor Mr. John Murray spent 15 – 20 years building air tools for the dental industry. He is uniquely qualified. Please call him at 310 617-5757. James McGrath 203 376-1152 Will do thanks.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Also, a question to those who are leaning toward "suicide by cop", or something similar: If he's doing the "suicide by cop" thing, or if he's actually going to be hostile, why the (possible - we can't exactly tell) multiple reaches into or toward a pocket or jacket? If yer gonna do it, then do it. The yes-no-yes-no thing wouldn't make sense.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well, I wish i could "blow up" the third screen shot of yours as it looks to me like he was already moving away from the center of the his truck as the truck coming towards him is still on a collision course. And perhaps he still thought he could make it over the berm before Mr. F's truck got there. He's getting pretty high on that berm there, maybe to let the truck get between the berm and the blockade?
Neither one of us knows for sure, and I wonder if the officer does either.
What we do know is, Mr. F was a wanted suspected felon. Who had previously fled from a stop. Who was known to be armed. Who was known to have expressed no desire to "be locked in a concrete box". Who was now approaching a roadblock with no indication of coming to a stop. These things are a given.
The fact of an officer jumping away from a vehicle, "apparently" into the path of the oncoming one, really matters not one bit. So what if he did it intending to "make" Mr F come to a stop. Now what, we are to believe that Mr F stopped out of the goodness of his heart instead of the fact that tons of snow (laws of physics) brought his vehicle to a stop?
OK, free country, you see and believe what you wish to. It's your "right". I will not attempt to take that away from you.
Good afternoon to you.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Play stupid games....win stupid prizes.
Enough said.
*Master of random precision*
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Joseywales, Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. Did you see the video from a chopper like I did or did you see a different one? I saw a guy get out of the car with his hands up. I saw his hands go down when he was killed. Most people by now have seen the zoomed and enhanxed FBI footage where he undoubtably reaches into his jacket twice prior to absorbing 3 rds. If one looks at the Oregonian footage on Youtube its all very clear unless one has already made up their mind via subpar footage Maybe it's clear to you. I still see no reason to shoot him. I saw no gun. One can only speculate what he was doing with his hands. Eitherway, I'm not convinced that he was a threat. Fair enough. Is it possible the officers speculated that he was reaching into his pocket to trigger a device and they shot him before he could do it? Why do people have to see a gun to believe there's a threat? Based on his actions of driving away, then the dance he put on, it doesn't appear he was complying at any time. We've all seen videos of suspects first raising their hands, then pulling a knife, gun, etc. Many of us are fortunate enough to be able to speculate without dying as a result of being wrong. LEOs don't share that luxury.
"Honey, when I die, sell my guns for what they're worth and not what I told you I paid for them."
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Campfire Ranger
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The FBI knew this was going down. They should have had a better plan to get those people to court healthy. What they did should land them all in jail and their bosses fired. We are paying them to do a job, after all. You seem to forget that they have absolutely zero accountability, especially in a situation like this one............and that's really what's wrong with this whole scenario & show & use o "overwhelming" force. They are essentially untouchable, whether they were right or wrong. MM But they obviously do have accountability, to you and I. And the good ones well know it. And some of their brass have apparently figured it out. That is why this one did NOT turn into Ruby Ridge or Waco. And that is why the FBI almost immediately released video of the shooting. It is obvious to any reasonable person that the police had no choice but to shoot. The choice was taken from them by the perp. One man made a decision to die. He is dead! Several others made a decision to live, they are alive and well. As are, thank God, all of the police involved. Reasonable persons understand that authorities have to end this occupation by armed people threatening violence and instigating armed rebellion. They have to end it before every ultra right wing loonie in the nation shows up ready to initiate another civil war. The public could not ask for a more perfect place for the arrests to be made. There are probably zero pieces of hiway in the us more perfectly suited for the roadblock. Deep frozen snow, no chance of the perp driving around the road block. He tried! Remote location, no chance of reenforcements arriving to assist perps. And no risk to innocent bystanders. People ask, Why did they not make the arrests in a public meeting, or the city street? Yeah, that would have fueled the Monday morning quarterbacks' discussions when it went south. Personally, I am very surprised that the feds did not move to arrest every one of the squatters during the first week of occupation. I applaud all of the police involved for their restraint.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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