Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters How much is “Enough”?

I'd wager that had a lot more to do with deficiencies in shooting and/or bullet selection than it did the cartridge.

The North American version of "Small Bore vs. Big Bore."

WDM Bell "made it clear in a magazine article published in American Rifleman in 1954 what he would use if he returned to Africa. With his vast experience ivory hunting, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose, which he felt was the .318 Westley Richards, or the 8x57mm Mauser. However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight."

Maybe it's the shooter and not the rifle? Plenty of people in Idaho killing elk with the 22-250, and plenty in WA, where I live, killing them with the 243 or 308.

Bullets matter more than head stamps, and all that...

Such a question must be stated in context or it's a frivolous question and any answers thereof will be frivolous too. Cross canyon shots at mule deer "out west", shots taken at buffalo across a grassy veldt, or deer in a thickly wooded patch of the Appalachians? Each will demand a different tool. What one man's "enough" in a given environment is another man's snickerdoodle in his.

seems you need to get acquainted with a .30-06

Yes, he does need to get acquainted with " Enough ".

.30-06 has been "enough" gun for me all of my adult life. Six of the buggers on my rack (and a 7th on the way) attests to that. Truth be told a .45 patched round ball has been enough for a goodly percentage of the deer I killed running the ridges of Maryland and Pennsylvania. .30-30 a close second to the '06, and is reached for more often than not anymore.

I guess this thread has lasted “long enough”! memtb

I was speech- less. I do know that if you want to see a circus, go to a local range the day before the opener. Doesn`t matter the gun...most don`t have enough respect for the game to sight it correctly.

You're still not saying where the elk was hit, with "Lord only knows what ammo." And you apparently have no idea how the deer were crippled. Can you provide such details on the "other such situations"?

Am asking because I have quite a bit of experience with various big game animals and the same or similar cartridges that contradicts your experience--and unlike you, actually KNOW what bullets were used and where the animals were hit.

Hi David, In my OP I stated : “that either the rifles were inadequate or the hunter was an inadequate marksman, or maybe both since animals were lost.” Obviously I did not have the opportunity to do an autopsy on said animals. Everyone who states that marksmanship is more important than headstamps is absolutely correct. But in my opinion there is not nearly enough marksmanship anywhere to make up for inadequate bullets and cartridges too light for the job. Our little campfire is apparently filled with experts of all flavors but they are likely to be 0.0001% of the nimrods afield. I’m sure you have seen plenty of goobers in the Yakima/Ellensburg area. Happy Trails

I have only came across one wounded deer that was shot with not enough.. I don't know what it was shot with, but I suspect a .223 with a varmint type bullet. 6 point buck hit square on the shoulder. Blew a hole about the size of a tennis ball and broke the bone. Buck was three legging it when I came over a ridge. I put it down. It had to have been the same day as the wound was fresh. I did actually tag it. For myself a 30-06 is about the recoil level I am comfortable with nowadays, the magnums have found new homes. I still have a 9.3X62 and that is fine for a bench session but I do start flinching after about 15 rounds. As always shot placement with the right bullet is always "enough" even a .223.

Probably not coincidence, Mule Deer provided me with some brass and recommended the same powder....

I will share this, though, it was “not” my finest moment. Many years ago, in a general hunt elk area, when I was younger and maybe a bit impulsive....I made a shot on a spike elk, that I had just jumped from his bed, at less than 20 yards. This was to be my second elk, and meat for the following year. I was still hunting, in timber, on wet ground cover....very quiet. I walked right up on a sleeping elk before I saw him...I was looking for standing elk, not sleeping elk.I was taking aim to place the bullet where the neck joined the head. He awoke, and went from sleeping ....to the speed of blur in an instant. I had a low power scope (2x), and while I had him in the scope, it was obvious that he was moving right to left, faster than I was. Knowing I was behind the ribs, and losing ground....I touched the trigger. Yes, he was definitely “gut shot”! Again ....not my finest moment! He only went about 30 or 40 yards, slowed greatly, obviously “very” sick! Another round, and the was elk for the freezer. The shot placement was behind the diaphragm, and behind the liver....definitely nothing but gut. Yet.....this little bull quickly slowed, for an easy follow-up shot. While many contend that a gut shot from any caliber is still a gut shot.... I question, would a lesser caliber have slowed this adrenaline pumped elk, that was fleeing a human predator spoked at 20 yards or less. I’ll “not” try to convince any one differently, but I was there, I know the circumstances, I know the location of the shot ( broadside guts) and I know the results! Do I advocate making “gut-shots”, absolutely not! However, not all of us are perfect....sometimes $#|t happens. Maybe, in certain situations..... “ too much” is “just enough”! Let the insults begin! “He that is without sin....let him cast the first stone”! memtb

memtb - you make me want to use my 375 more often...

"Enough" is dependent on circumstances.

Deer at modest range require little. They die pretty easy.

Bigger, tougher game may require more. More penetration. Good bullets help a lot. Shot placement rules supreme.

My son has a pretty doggone good track record on mule deer with a mere 6mm Rem, and on black bear with his 30-06 rifle. He's had lightning like instant kills with his little 6mm Rem & 95 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. I've had similar results with my 25-06 & 115's.

About 50 years ago Dad told me that the 30-06 was "enough gun" for anything in North America. All these years later, yup, he was right. Elk, bear, pronghorn, deer, etc... The ol' 30-06 just gets the job done, right along with a lot of other cartridges of similar power level.

That said, I have had a moment when I was glad I had a 375 in hand, and another moment when I wished I had my 375 in hand.

Guy,

I have killed quite a few big game animals with the .375 H&H from 100 up to around 1500 pounds in weight, and have been next to other hunters who shot almost as many animals. Most went down pretty quickly, but have seen a few that would be considered by most hunters to be hit "perfectly" through both lungs go 100-200 yards before falling, and they were not all larger than deer. One was a springbok that might have weighed 100 pounds on the hoof. The bullets were lead-core controlled-expansion brands with excellent reputations, and did considerable damage.

Have also seen some big game lost when hit around the edges with the .375. Both were blue wildebeest, one shot right behind the ribcage (we could see the leaking hole) and one shot a right of center on a frontal shot, which from the evidence hit the shoulder bone. Could not tell whether the bullet went into the chest cavity.

Another animal that went a LONG way was a gemsbok shot right behind the ribcage. It went two miles (by Land Cruiser odometer) before the hunter caught up with it again and finished the job. The bullet in that instance was a 270-grain Barnes TSX.

In another instance that I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't been there, a 300-grain bonded bullet rated as among the best in the world hit a Cape buffalo bull in the shoulder joint as it stood broadside at just about 100 yards, one of a herd of maybe 40 buffalo with at least 3 bulls. The bull then bucked into nearby brush before the hunter could shoot again and, after almost an hour of waiting without hearing a death bellow, four of us followed up, the guy who shot, two PH's and me, who went along as photographer and extra back-up. We spread out in thornbrush where visibility was around 50 years, and by chance I jumped the bull but could not see any blood so didn't shoot, unsure if it was the right bull. The others gathered around me and we followed the tracks, finding a little blood. Soon the cover got too thick for four people to be safe, so the hunter and I were told to stay behind while the two PH's followed up. They jumped the bull several more times, eventually putting 11 solids from a .416 Rigby and .458 Express (a slightly longer version of the .458 Lott) into it before the buffalo died.

The autopsy found the initial. .375 bullet on the SAME side it went in. Apparently when it hit the heavy shoulder bone and expanded, it started spinning, whirling through the near lung behind the shoulder before ending up under the hide at the rear of the ribs.

The .375 is a fine cartridge, but it isn't magic enough to always stop mishit animals from going a long way.

Mule deer ....

Please do not take this as being a troll.

Autopsy only pertains to humans.

Necropsy, or upon post mortum examination are the correct terms for examination of dead animals.

Just trying to help with perceived items by the public.

John

Angus,

That's very interesting. I am obviously interested in language, but had never heard that autopsy applies only to humans before, so decided to look it up in various dictionaries, including the two big paper editions we have on hand, Webster's Unabridged and the Oxfor dictionary of the English Language. Neither mentions that autopsy only means humans.

However, most dictionaries have gone to the Internet to keep with with stuff, since English is a living language. I also consulted several on-line dictionaries, but none of them mentioned your definition either, and in fact one said autopsy means a post-mortem examination of "someone or something." More than one listed "necropsy" as a synonym.

What’s wrong with buying a new gun?