Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Do you think as a side-armed citizen, you could have thwarted the El Paso shooter?

I don't think anyone is disputing that they will treat an unknown quantity armed good citizen like a perp.

but does that mean you leave your gun in your holster and your fate to the wind in the time before any cops turn up?





We have a X-cop on the CF that is on record saying when a perp starts shooting at him
"all bets are off" regarding due care for avoiding collateral damage.

My fate isn't to the wind; whether or not anyone else's is up to them.

How about you, since you're such a hard case?

WTF?....I have not claimed to be a 'hard case', or inflexible type...nor have I suggested anyone else must be such.

I understand that different people in such a situation can have different mindsets, priorities, discipline, skill level , etc.

I've been shot at in a drive by shooting, stared down the barrel of a loaded gun that had the hammer back and fully intended to shoot me, and ran in and pulled a driver from a burning semi truck while everyone else there yelled at me to get back.

I also drove into Soweto South Africa every morning just weeks prior to Mandela's election after SADF troops stopped me everytime and pleaded with me not to go in. Been mugged twice and fought back both times and came out ahead. I was also supervisor at the Utah State Forensic hospital and frequently had to take down and restrain murderers and other violent sociopaths.

All of that and I still couldn't say for sure how I would react in an active shooter situation. I hope I could get my family safe first and then help others as I could but who knows for sure. There's always a million variables so it's really hard to arm chair hypothetically. I know that I need to train more. Training helped me handle the criminals on the psych unit. I also know that physically I'm am no where near what I used to be.

I really need to get in better shape and learn more about tactical shooting. I'm more of a hunting rifle guy but I have several handguns I could practice with a lot more. I'm currently in such bad shape physically I honestly don't think I could be much help in a situation. I could probably just give them something to shoot at while my wife and kids run.

I really need to get my stuff back together.

Bb

Wherever your bullshit semantics lead you.

When this Tac unit shows up everything in the immediate incident is over. The clock has run past the point we are talking about. With all the CIM training I've been through one thing that is passed over, or given far too little weight, is the fact that the clock is running. These things take time to mobilize. And typically the time of the initial incident is very short.

Easy question...If I’m near the shooter then I will engage. If I can’t locate the shooter visually within a few seconds, I’m leading people out to safety with my firearm at the ready should we make contact with the shooter exiting....

I’m not interested in being gunned down by the police accidentally. 😎

I am sure there are a few guys on here that are among the lucky few who can still react and think during an adrenaline flood of the brain. 97% of people can NOT function under that condition. Training, marksmanship, and tactical analysis means nothing when your motor control and the brain shuts down. We've all seen the cop videos, emptying magazines at 15 feet with no center mass hits. Dial it back, Rambo's. Buck fever to the tenth power.

I agree.

But apparently those reasoned actions doesn't register with the average CCW holder...

Actually they should. Run Hide Fight is a very valid thing. Unless the shooter is close at hand, then you are following the RHF recommendation. Seriously, running into a situation by yourself with someone most likely armed with a rifle using a handgun, that math doesn't work for me. I don't mind risking my life or even loosing it. Throwing it away would be a different matter.

That's the answer. More ifs, ands, and buts than you can plan on in a Walmart full of customers and not knowing how many shooters or what they have. Right opportunity, plenty here that could end it if only one shooter. Wrong opportunity, no need in being the next one dead, keep headed for the Exit. And pray you can tell the difference.

re; 97%

bUt I've heard its many times on the CF how a good citizen on the spot, could potentially thwart the actions of a shooting spree killer.
(maybe not outright kill him, but at least put him off his game or wound him, etc )...most such perps are pussies that don't want to die,
...right???......thats why they often surrender to police before any shots are fired at them?

I mean the CF has members who strongly believe and have repeatedly stressed how important it is for every capable law abiding person
to carry in the event they could one day have [the option] to deal with a bad guy wherever they find themselves by stroke of fate.
The more the better = the more chance of putting a spanner in the works of a mass killer.

nOw I'm being given the opposite impression that the real world effective power [or likelyhood] of side-armed good citizens to effectively
thwart massacres is way over -rated. ....So, If in any doubt wait for LE /Gov and see what sort of crapshoot quality of first responder cops
turns up, but we all know how that can turn out.

> I cant rely on 97% of armed good citizens to reasonably keep their schitt together when faced with such a perp,
> I cannot trust that good capable/competent first responder cops will turn up..
> If we wait for SWAT we could well all be dead before they arrive...
>. ANY cop may well shoot a good citizen trying to exercise their reasonable right to protect themselves
and others against a perp If need be.
> Yet the Cops have NO obligation to protect good citizens from a perp.
> Cops mostly don't trust anyone outside of cops with legally possessing/carrying a firearm,
If some had their way , you would not be allowed to have one.

A couple of guys have said, they would take on one shooter. But if two shooters, no way to prevail, so head for the exit.

However this is not necessarily true. A lot of these psycho boys are on a suicide trip, like the two Columbine shooters. They killed themselves.
So, if you had more nerve than the on-duty Columbine school resource officer, who spent the shooting cowering behind his police car, and you entered the school with your Smith and Wesson, and you snuck up behind these punks, and managed to shoot one of them in the back a couple of times, the other one then and there probably would have killed himself.

You have to bear in mind, you are not confronting a Russian Special Forces guy. You are confronting a mentally ill young guy who, though he may have a badass gun, has little if any training. He is by definition a bully and a coward and he does not have a strong warrior spirit.

So yes, a civilian with a pistol and a strong warrior spirit could prevail. He could, and then again, he might get himself killed.

There was a similar situation in Tyler about 15 or more years ago. The good samaritan was killed but did stop the shooting and saved some lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

I've started daily carrying a H&K USP 40 full size because it is my most accurate and capable sidearm. Crap like this is why I carry it with at least 28 rounds of ammo. i can do head shots at 60 yards with this weapon.

Yea,I would have lit him up! Regardless.

I would say most of the time yes if one shooter and you are reasonably competent with your pistol.

Most shooters are cowards and kill themselves when confronted. Plus they are rarely skilled in firearms handling.

When they meet serious threat to them, they are retreating or killing themselves.

A CCW does not make you LEO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The response to this question shows just how few men are left.



Any male that would save himself while innocent people are being harmed, whether armed or not, is an embarrassment to his ancestors. He will never be able to die well regardless of what he does after the event, and everyone- his wife, daughter, sons, family and friends will know he is a coward.

Amen.

If my wife was there alone, I would hope someone would try to help her, although she carries a G19 and apparently will do more than many in this forum. I will give it my best effort or die trying, but I sure will not standby while people, especially women and kids are being slaughtered by some pasty faced coward.

FBI's analysis of the mass shootings in 2016 - 2017 analyzed 50 incidents. 8 of the 50 incidents were stopped by citizens. 4 incidents were stopped by citizens with concealed handgun licenses.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

This is after the fact. We always know what we should have done. Nobody goes to the store expecting to see a gunman. So you are surprised. Then I have to think. Twice I have met open carry at WM one I knew, the others were 3 PSAC guys buying ammo. I have seen uncased long guns being transferred to a different car. Is it a short range shot he doesnt expect as he concentrates on his target?l. The one thing sure is the other gun is out and already engaging while you assess the situation