I mean look at the serious weight of the LE response:

https://images.app.goo.gl/MHBZzPfbFuzx3aTF7

How many cooks does it take to spoil a broth?

Me personally, Probably not. I suck with hand guns. Give me a long gun, not likely I understand in that environment - and in less than a heart beat yes.

Maybe... maybe not. I would have made him seek cover and keep his head down instead of mowing through unarmed and innocent people. If I was close enough, I'd have taken him out.

Yes but they would have to be dang careful they didn't get shot by LEO responding mistaking them for the bad guy.

It's impossible to answer because of the variables. Possibly yes if a CHL was close enough and not initially targeted.

This right here. I've had local cops say that question comes up in training and the instructors never have a good answer.

Fight (engage, shoot) if you have no choice, if there's a choice run?

The brutal truth is that you have no duty to protect or save anyone but yourself and your own family. Escape if you can, engage if you cannot.

That may be true, but if I was there, and armed, I just don't believe that I could bring myself to just run away without at least attempting to stop the carnage. At the very least I could school the crazy person that shooting fish in a barrel isn't nearly as much fun when they shoot back.

Too many variables in too short of a time frame. Handgun vs Long Gun is not normally a winning scenario. Surprise, cover, concealment and movement are always factors that can tip the balance.

People will do one of three things: Fight, Flight, or Freeze.

In a street fight, use everything and anything available. Avoid if possible, flee if you can, fight if you must. Don't fight fair.

I don't carry, but given the right circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a crazed attacker.

What would Scot Peterson do??

I was nursing a sore face after a teenage scuffle when my Father told me something I have never forgot and has served me well since. He said the first thing I needed to remember was the best way to avoid a fight and getting hurt was just don't be there in the first place. Also sometimes a good run is way better than a bad stand. How many times have you seen someone stand for the right reason and wind up in jail for it?

I don't know the answer to your original question, but I hope that I would have had the courage to try.

Not if I could find an exit.

The picture of the LE response shows a picture of heavily geared-up guys striding onto the scene after the fact. Good PR photo but that's about it. No matter how good their reponse time might be, it's not quick enough to prevent the emptying of a couple of magazines. If anyone engaged the shooter, his actions would be, at least, influenced and he might even be stopped. The truth is, any response is better than none. Of course, response is just that and is, by it's nature, too late. GD

You post a picture of a SWAT team, then ask a stupid question?

That fits your M.O.

You are a total dumbass.

If I am ever walking out of Walmart and see some jackass walking in with a rifle and wearing ear pro, he will have less than 2 seconds to figure out what’s coming and shoot me. I can hit an index card in less than that drawing from a hands up position. Masking the initial move with my shopping bag in the left hand will give him even less time.

Around here, inside the store, if I hear or see gunfire, I am on the floor. Be too many guns blazing away, most of them in the hands of people who carry but don’t train. Shooter comes near me, they get blasted from concealment, problem solved.

No way I could stand by while folks are being killed. But my gun will be out of sight the instant I am done with it, and I would probably initially leave the scene with the rest of the folks. Let the lawyer make contact with the cops later. Too hairy a situation to start telling cops you shot anybody, if you can help it.

Once you've accepted that you are about to die, nothing in the world ever scares you again. I've run towards gunfire before, so after making sure my family was headed in the right direction, I'd do whatever I could to stop the bad guy.

Texas lawmen don't screw around, especially the ones near the border.

If a good man with a handgun had been there AND been close to the shooter AND not been targeted AND been able to engage him within the first few seconds of the event, then he MIGHT have been able to influence the outcome.

But the odds of a good guy getting shot by first responders if he has to hunt the bad guy are off the charts, and they get worse the longer it takes to find and engage the bad guy. Just look at the Dayton shooting--the police killed the shooter in less than 30 seconds. I'm betting that anyone else who pulled a pistol in that time would have been killed, too. Plenty of thoughts and prayers for the good guy afterwards, but that's little consolation.


Okie John

+1

The guy is a coward and didnt want to die. Most likely any shot fired his way would have had him running away.

You would prefer less of a response?

That might be the price to be paid. Seems like that is what police and military do every day. Sometimes give their own life to save others.

If one is going to CCW, they must accept the fact that they may have to give their life defending themselves or others and their death may be by LEO.
Accept that or don't carry.

It isn't "fair". It isn't "nice". It's fact.

Yup. I could hit him in the head offhand first shot from about as far.as you can see in a Wal-Mart if he stood still a couple beats. That's cause I have a range on my property and shoot much more than average. My situation is not the usual.

However, cops shoot everything that .moves when they're scared. So my gun would be for getting me and mine out of there. Those other people have to learn to do the same . then these shootings will cease.

Only if a guy was using a 9mm loaded with better powder and bullets. The 40 can’t be shot accurately enough, the 45 is antiquated and to slow to travel enough distance, and might be stopped by Chinese linens. (Sarcasm)

This.

Due to a lot of unseen circumstances and no matter the degree of training that one has been through it’s an unknown factor as to how one could and would respond!

99% of folks ain’t Chuck Norris!!

Not everyone has the stones to do it. Peterson is a coward because he was trained to do it.

However, IIRC, in virtually every case where one of these nutcases is confronted by any sort of armed resistance, they either give up or off themselves immediately. None of them have the stones for a gun fight either.

It also depends on whether or not you had your kids or grand babies with you at the time. Your first instinct would be to get them out of there to safety-not engaging the shooter unless they were upon you and you had no other choice....far too many unknown variables.

Well it would depend on the specifics of the situation. More precisely if the situation came to the point where i was forced to and still able to engage the shooter, then yes Im confident that my equipment and skill level could disable a shooter. Wouldnt be my first priority though, that would be getting me and my loved ones the hell outta there! Not going to play super trooper and go out of my way to seek the gunman out first!

he would kill his pregnant wife

That was Scott, not Scot. LOL

Friend of mines daughter was working in a gun free mall when a mass shooting took place. She retreated to a back room WITH her pistol. She said there were two shots from a different pistol and the murders ended. No one came forward of course.

Had I been there with my family...and armed....and could pull a mother hen and escape with my chicks...


I probably would have.

Maybe once they were safe I could have gone back. I dont know.

I certainly would have tried. Without question if I saw him first he would be dead. I shoot a lot and my carry pistol is a tackdriver. That said I know so many people that absolutely lack the ability to do anything but get in the way when armed. I think any opposition would at least have slowed him down. Yes I would worry about LEO shooting me.

If you engaged him early in the incident you could have put some holes in him, got in your car and driven to Shoneys before the cops got there. I guarantee you the SWAT team got there way after everyone else. Didn't the guy give up, without incident up a couple blocks away?

I paraphrase Clint Smith - a pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle.

Yes, or died trying, even if half the dead were stinking illegals with tax dollar funded ebt cards in their pockets, you need a good reason for killing.

He also said your sidearm is a way to acquire a long arm, i.e., from the first bad guy you shot with your handgun.

My first thought as well. Quickly followed by "what the hell does he have to do with this discussion?"

Then I recalled the coward from Broward.

No idea what I could or couldn’t do in any given situation. As a father of young children I am with Rocky Raab.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no doubt that more good guys with guns anywhere anytime is good not bad.

Yeah, his rifle.

In most cases, just engaging a mass shooter will stop the killing because most of them are not mentally prepared for a gunfight. That said, carrying a gun for self defense is very different than being a LEO. The average armed citizen is under no obligation to confront a mass shooter and most probably wouldn't unless there is no other choice. You would want to have good handgun skills to go up against a rifle. Ultimately, it depends on the individual and the exact situation.

In Texas I am surprised that there was not a side-armed citizen response.

Apparently there was one guy armed who chose to take the time to move some children out of the line of fire.

our problem as a society we don’t want to say anything. Most just want to avoid confrontation with people. So with that, how many people saw this guy walking towards the store with the rifle ear muffs on? I guess as a society we see so many ph ucking screwballs we/they just chalk it up as nothing. Hell look at the picture rehegade50 posted of ziggi stardust at cicci pizza. Anyhow no one said anything, would that would of helped? Who knows but saying something to a guy could of threw him off his plan.. but when one is getting shot it tends to make you rethink shooting up a store or public gathering.

Are you asking could I have stopped it, or would I have tried?

I think so. I am in that store several times a week. Know the layout. It is right across the freeway from my business. Shoot competitively several times per month. My S&W 40 is very accurate. Last two coyotes were shot at 40 and 85 yards.
John

Tough question. Easy to be a side line quarterback and offer advice. Frankly I don’t know what I would do. If I were slightly hidden and had a good shot opportunity would take it. My biggest concern would be if a LEO or other person carrying thought I was connected to the shooter.
It’s a tough call and so many things could alter my decision.

My family is grown and out of the nest. I'm getting older and got good life insurance.

If I was with my granddaughter I would probably be all about getting her out of danger.

Otherwise I would like to think I would run towards the sound of gunfire, to do what I could. Dying trying at this point would be a good way to go out if it came to that..

Never has happened tho so I have no way of knowing how I would react..

It is impossible to predict a future situation and the appropriate response. If using the El Paso example the variables will affect your choices. If you are w/ loved ones you must 1st protect them, escape if possible, kill the threat if escape is not an option. If you don't train seriously to respond effectively you will probably fail.

Unless you are a fool that believes that it can't happen to me you can prepare yourself to have choices. Choice#1`Commit to training until you have proven yourself effective. Choice#2 Admit that you are willing to let yourself and your loved ones be victims and pray for mercy.

Ancient platitudes such as fighting to your rifle ignores the fact that the threat situation creates the choices available to you. I always have a Glock 19 and an extra mag on my person. I don't like leaving my AR unattended in my car, ergo I devote the vast majority of my training effort to problem solving with the Glock.

Planning to succeed is essential. Then work the plan to failure and improve as necessary, you are never "good enough"


mike r

Secure the parking lot?

Do you guys ever get tired of being trolled?

The OP doesn't post on here except on the freakshow and even then is just with posts such as this to provoke responses.

Exhibit A: How many times since the original post has he posted on this thread?

I would honestly like to think I would at least engage, but realistically most of us are not mentally prepared for that type of situation. You have to sort out in your mind that there is a bad guy killing people, locate the bad guy, and confront them while being sure they need to be dead and understanding you are way under gunned. That's a completely different response than most self defensive situations we train for. I'm going to guess my response would not be fast or any where near perfect, and I would be chitting myself the whole time. I really think you have to train for that scenario to be anywhere close to effective. And don't forget to add to fact you might be a target by a leo or other good guy because you have a gun and there is a active shooter that might be you.

You wait hidden from the shooter watching until you can ambush him from close up. Then blast him, making sure to hit him in the head and pelvis area.

Hard to say. You never get the fight you want, you get the fight you get, and you have to be prepared for anything.

Not arguing the Troll status, but I believe every time something like this happens prob'ly most everyone who carries wonders what they would have done if they had been there.

Oh, I'm not saying it's not a valid question at all. Simply the source. If you pay attention to his/her posts they are written to elicit a response. As if he/she were intentionally stirring the pot and recording the answers.

Wasn't a post by a normal person nor worded as such.

Truth, he is a creep and I am guilty as charged.


mike r

That is why they are walking in there like it is a parade after everything is all over. They stop on the way to put on every "tactical" gadget MY money can buy them.

When SHTF, you are on your own with what you brought with you. Think about that when are looking through the feather light derringer combination key fob and EDC department.

Chuck Norris ain't Chuck Norris. He's more or less fiction. A man can only do what his conscience and training allows him to do. How much actual training does anyone think this 21 year old punk with a new AK had. I think I would have took my chances. Damn sure wasn't going to be shot in the back unless I was his first victim. But really, never been in such a armed conflict and just don't know. Been in several antique "fist fights" in my younger and dumber days, but that seems to be a thing of the past for settling arguments between men. Didn't always win, but never had anymore problems with the guy who did if I didn't. I guess that may count as a win to come and think about it. My thoughts and a $1.06 will get you a cup of coffee as McDonald's.

No they don't. That is ridiculous.

The TRUTH is if you CCW, you have a CHOICE what you may, may not, and are capable of doing.

+1
I was going to say perfect dumbass, but nobody is perfect.

Starman: The El Paso murderer would NOT want me shooting at him with my Glock Model 22 filled with high capacity magazine and top quality Federal Hydro Shock (large hollow-point!) ammunition!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

He/she's caught a lot of fish with his/her net. You ain't the only one Mike. I'm just drawing attention to him/her hoping to cut down on his/her giggles.

None of us really know how we'd respond. And Rocky is correct, there's no duty to defend, just like the Broward Coward isn't in jail or liable. He's fired, but he's alive and apparently can live with that and his pension.

In El Paso, if I were there, carrying, and ran away, I couldn't stand myself. Anyone with me, not armed, run like hell!, of course, but the only way to stop something like this is to move to the sound of the gunfire.

It all boils down to, if there's a chance, then some of us will take it. I hope I've got the guts.

Yep. A lot of difference in a novice shooter who bought a gun a week ago shooting innocent fleeing victims in the back, then trying to shoot back at a well trained disciplined shooter who is proficient and determined.
I for one ain’t gonna die from getting shot in the back while running away. If I die It’s gonna be because I ran out of ammo.

That picture is after the fact. No swat team is so ready to respond it will be there in time to stop a shooter. Beat cop is what you got, if you're lucky, and he's not a pussy.

They also earn a living doing it, as well as have the court system on their team. Neither of these applies to a regular Joe with a pistol in his pocket.

If people want to kill you, you can do your best, but they will still complete the act. This wack job could have done the same thing on a crowded street in a full size truck.

I know this has been posted before, but it bares repeating !

The Classics Reloaded: “Rules For A Gunfight by Drill Instructor Joe B. Fricks, USMC”

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap – life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

And...
Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.

When we did our active shooter training for church, the KSP trainer was VERY CLEAR. When they roll on the scene, if you have a firearm in your hand, you have less than 2 seconds to put it down. Otherwise they assume YOU are part of the problem...

Supposedly there was a black License Holder who was armed on scene that was detained by El Paso LEO, who thought he might be the shooter.
If so, the Fake News Media’s Not reporting it.
Doesn’t fit their Agenda.

What kind of gutless wonder CCW uses his sidearm and them runs away and hides to avoid taking responsibility for his actions?

I read that too, Black Lives (especially his) Matter. Has a gun to respond, responds by running away. Hope he can live with that.

You came to the CF all worried asking advice on how to handle your neighbors dog.

How many years were you a Leo...9 or something? ..now you are busy busting hydraulic hoses on the farm,
chasing conspiracy theories, and ankle biting people here.

Lots of members find themselves capable of giving a candid civil answer about how they MIGHT have POTENTIALLY reacted
[depending on actual circumstance etc,] ..which is understandable ....

and they can answer without getting all uptight and upset like you and a couple other CF snowflakes have.




FALSE...but evidently you feel the need to lie.....are you a cop/X- cop by any chance?




mY ego isn't as big as yours, hence I like to see the variety of OTHER peoples responses.

Better to try and die than live as a coward

Yes, Thats part of the point I was making.

iTs typically either up to a [reasonably willing -capable] side-armed citizen with a fortuitous good opportunity to thwart the shooter
or the cops first on the scene.

Multiple Teams that look like they are geared-up to raid Bin Ladens defended compound don't mean much if they arrive after
the dust has settled and the blood congealed.

but the media will swarm on them for a good photo-shoot. typically with the caption 'heavily armed police respond'




Ive brought that exact same point up on previous threads.

Anyone doing or wishing to do what historically and culturally was "the right thing to do" is going to have the hardest time with the government and its employees, not a nutjob with a gun......

Yep.

Let's say I'm in that situation. Hell, lets say I'm an off duty or plain clothes LEO. Understand that the responding uniform is looking for a target. Weapon on the ground hands behind the head with interlocking fingers the second I lay eyes on an LEO. No hesitation, right now.

It would just be plain stupid to pull a weapon when all the commotion is going on. You pull a weapon and you will be the next target..

Stupid to run around with it, true. But if the opportunity comes to attack the target, not stupid at all.

Unless of course you value your life above all else, I can see that, even though it doesn't apply to me.

You need to use it to defend yourself; being an "attacker" is pretty much grounds for the .gov cleanup crew to shoot your ass....after more cleanup, they may or may not know your motives. The odds of them giving a [bleep] are pretty low.

Sorry, but that's where we're at.

No obligation of course , but If one is in the right place at the right time early on when the perp is shooting and before LE arrive,

then why carry a weapon if you won't use it when you know in your mind and heart you should?

And people are going to forget about El Paso just as easily .

Most conservative people mind their own [bleep] business; of course thousands of babies get knocked off by "doctors" every year, even though its state sponsored murder.

Perhaps you should be thankful they aren't as emotional as you wish they were...

Every time someone posts a thread about a good citizen taking out a bad guy the CF cheers/praises the effort and outcome.

That means they would be somewhat disappointed had that good citizen decided to mind their own business instead.

regarding emotions, I prefer to see cool headed good citizens [and cops] draw their weapon when needed, their judgement and shooting
will typically be better than frantic emotional types.

Anyone who needs to be highly emotionally charged before they can bring themselves to shoot someone in self-defence is a worry.

Every time?

Seems they are isolated incidences of immediate self defense.

I'm disappointed in the many that think the government has any role fixing the very things it has created, not some Joe content to mind his business amidst the public funded societal collapse...

Every time I can remember, ...I certainly don't recall CF folks frowning on a good citizen stepping forward and taking out a genuine bad guy.

maybe some praise such efforts cause they don't know if they are capable themselves in such situations , I don't really know.

I wonder how many train their shooting skills on 'paper perpetrators' , ..but don't bother to train their minds?

Yes. As the Cheyenne Indians used to say, "It is a good day to die."

I would try to get behind the shooter and sneak up and shoot him in the back a few times. If you do well you save some lives.
If you screw up, well, at least you get your name in the paper. We all have to die some day.

If I’d been there with the wife and kids I’d haul ass and get them to safety alone I’d hunt that sum bitch down if I was cornered and either kill him or go out in a blaze of gun fire

Yup. I've been getting trained and paid to run toward the guns all my adult life. I'm pretty comfortable with that idea. I'm in my mid 50s now and I don't see that changing.

Death Before Dishonor
This We'll Defend
It's A Good Day To Die

These words mean something to some of us.

This is absolutely correct. Most people imagine what their physiology and mental make-up would be in a situation in which they might be seriously injured (or killed) by another person. But most people have not truly been tested.

Every time LEO in full blown tac units are called to show up, there aren't any lone warriors going around saving anyone's bacon, ever. At your home, isolated incidents, sure. No comparisons.

Train your mind to the fact a TAC unit is going to shoot your John Wayne ass as it arrives before that mental steel trap does....

I would have tried in every way possible, and maybe some that weren't. Most here would.

All I know is, if I had the shot, I'd take it.

Hopefully I would try. An anecdote from long ago...

I was in a 7-11 back in Ft. Lauderdale when I heard someone come in and announce "this is a robbery!". I was the only customer in the store at the time and back by the cooler getting a soft drink so he didn't see me. The primitive survival part of your mind does weird things as you picture a dozen scenarios in short order, one of which was the clerk and I being herded into a back cooler and shot. As it was, I grabbed the biggest, heaviest can of food within reach, my plan was to circle my way behind the aisle to try to come up directly behind the guy. Figured I could throw it and rush him or just cold cock him from behind if close enough. Maybe rash and even stupid on afterthought but your first thought is to do something, anything. Particularly when I was trapped and couldn't get out except by going right by the guy.

This all took about three seconds when the "perp", some young male in his late teens I guess, said "no! it's a joke, I'm just kidding". Apparently he thought it would be real funny to do that. I didn't see the clerk's reaction to the initial anouncement, it was a middle aged black guy I knew on a head nodding recognition basis, but he cussed this guy up and down and told him to get the hell out of his store. This was back in the late 70's before most people carried. I put the can of food back on the shelf and got my drink.

So to the original question, it all depends on the scenario. You don't know what you'll really do when confronted with an actual (or realistically perceived) life and death situation until it happens.



As a somewhat sad epilogue, that same clerk was shot in the face and killed a year or so later by a robber.

I think it would depend on the CC carriers location. View with a good shot without by-standers, from the side or rear of the person shooting.

Upon hearing gunfire, my first reaction would be to duck and assess where the fire was coming from and how far away it was and go from there. Could I have thwarted the shooter? I do not know for a certainty. Would I have? Yes, if I had the opportunity to actually do so. Who knows . . .

I carry 99% of the time I am out and about, except where I am not, by law, allowed to carry. In the years I have had my CCW, I have only come close to drawing it one time, but didn't need to or have to. It was a rush (not a good rush BTW) and did not involve gunfire from anywhere, which was a huge relief. A guy and his GF were being chased by 3 or 4 LEO vehicles and came up the main runway in front of the store, slammed on his brakes, jumped out and ran into the store. He ended up stopping his ride about 20 feet from my bride and me. This was, not surprisingly, in a Wal*Mart parking lot.

I don't think anyone is disputing that they will treat an unknown quantity armed good citizen like a perp.

but does that mean you leave your gun in your holster and your fate to the wind in the time before any cops turn up?





We have a X-cop on the CF that is on record saying when a perp starts shooting at him
"all bets are off" regarding due care for avoiding collateral damage.

My fate isn't to the wind; whether or not anyone else's is up to them.

How about you, since you're such a hard case?

WTF?....I have not claimed to be a 'hard case', or inflexible type...nor have I suggested anyone else must be such.

I understand that different people in such a situation can have different mindsets, priorities, discipline, skill level , etc.

I've been shot at in a drive by shooting, stared down the barrel of a loaded gun that had the hammer back and fully intended to shoot me, and ran in and pulled a driver from a burning semi truck while everyone else there yelled at me to get back.

I also drove into Soweto South Africa every morning just weeks prior to Mandela's election after SADF troops stopped me everytime and pleaded with me not to go in. Been mugged twice and fought back both times and came out ahead. I was also supervisor at the Utah State Forensic hospital and frequently had to take down and restrain murderers and other violent sociopaths.

All of that and I still couldn't say for sure how I would react in an active shooter situation. I hope I could get my family safe first and then help others as I could but who knows for sure. There's always a million variables so it's really hard to arm chair hypothetically. I know that I need to train more. Training helped me handle the criminals on the psych unit. I also know that physically I'm am no where near what I used to be.

I really need to get in better shape and learn more about tactical shooting. I'm more of a hunting rifle guy but I have several handguns I could practice with a lot more. I'm currently in such bad shape physically I honestly don't think I could be much help in a situation. I could probably just give them something to shoot at while my wife and kids run.

I really need to get my stuff back together.

Bb

Wherever your bullshit semantics lead you.

When this Tac unit shows up everything in the immediate incident is over. The clock has run past the point we are talking about. With all the CIM training I've been through one thing that is passed over, or given far too little weight, is the fact that the clock is running. These things take time to mobilize. And typically the time of the initial incident is very short.

Easy question...If I’m near the shooter then I will engage. If I can’t locate the shooter visually within a few seconds, I’m leading people out to safety with my firearm at the ready should we make contact with the shooter exiting....

I’m not interested in being gunned down by the police accidentally. 😎

I am sure there are a few guys on here that are among the lucky few who can still react and think during an adrenaline flood of the brain. 97% of people can NOT function under that condition. Training, marksmanship, and tactical analysis means nothing when your motor control and the brain shuts down. We've all seen the cop videos, emptying magazines at 15 feet with no center mass hits. Dial it back, Rambo's. Buck fever to the tenth power.

I agree.

But apparently those reasoned actions doesn't register with the average CCW holder...

Actually they should. Run Hide Fight is a very valid thing. Unless the shooter is close at hand, then you are following the RHF recommendation. Seriously, running into a situation by yourself with someone most likely armed with a rifle using a handgun, that math doesn't work for me. I don't mind risking my life or even loosing it. Throwing it away would be a different matter.

That's the answer. More ifs, ands, and buts than you can plan on in a Walmart full of customers and not knowing how many shooters or what they have. Right opportunity, plenty here that could end it if only one shooter. Wrong opportunity, no need in being the next one dead, keep headed for the Exit. And pray you can tell the difference.

re; 97%

bUt I've heard its many times on the CF how a good citizen on the spot, could potentially thwart the actions of a shooting spree killer.
(maybe not outright kill him, but at least put him off his game or wound him, etc )...most such perps are pussies that don't want to die,
...right???......thats why they often surrender to police before any shots are fired at them?

I mean the CF has members who strongly believe and have repeatedly stressed how important it is for every capable law abiding person
to carry in the event they could one day have [the option] to deal with a bad guy wherever they find themselves by stroke of fate.
The more the better = the more chance of putting a spanner in the works of a mass killer.

nOw I'm being given the opposite impression that the real world effective power [or likelyhood] of side-armed good citizens to effectively
thwart massacres is way over -rated. ....So, If in any doubt wait for LE /Gov and see what sort of crapshoot quality of first responder cops
turns up, but we all know how that can turn out.

> I cant rely on 97% of armed good citizens to reasonably keep their schitt together when faced with such a perp,
> I cannot trust that good capable/competent first responder cops will turn up..
> If we wait for SWAT we could well all be dead before they arrive...
>. ANY cop may well shoot a good citizen trying to exercise their reasonable right to protect themselves
and others against a perp If need be.
> Yet the Cops have NO obligation to protect good citizens from a perp.
> Cops mostly don't trust anyone outside of cops with legally possessing/carrying a firearm,
If some had their way , you would not be allowed to have one.

A couple of guys have said, they would take on one shooter. But if two shooters, no way to prevail, so head for the exit.

However this is not necessarily true. A lot of these psycho boys are on a suicide trip, like the two Columbine shooters. They killed themselves.
So, if you had more nerve than the on-duty Columbine school resource officer, who spent the shooting cowering behind his police car, and you entered the school with your Smith and Wesson, and you snuck up behind these punks, and managed to shoot one of them in the back a couple of times, the other one then and there probably would have killed himself.

You have to bear in mind, you are not confronting a Russian Special Forces guy. You are confronting a mentally ill young guy who, though he may have a badass gun, has little if any training. He is by definition a bully and a coward and he does not have a strong warrior spirit.

So yes, a civilian with a pistol and a strong warrior spirit could prevail. He could, and then again, he might get himself killed.

There was a similar situation in Tyler about 15 or more years ago. The good samaritan was killed but did stop the shooting and saved some lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

I've started daily carrying a H&K USP 40 full size because it is my most accurate and capable sidearm. Crap like this is why I carry it with at least 28 rounds of ammo. i can do head shots at 60 yards with this weapon.

Yea,I would have lit him up! Regardless.

I would say most of the time yes if one shooter and you are reasonably competent with your pistol.

Most shooters are cowards and kill themselves when confronted. Plus they are rarely skilled in firearms handling.

When they meet serious threat to them, they are retreating or killing themselves.

A CCW does not make you LEO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The response to this question shows just how few men are left.



Any male that would save himself while innocent people are being harmed, whether armed or not, is an embarrassment to his ancestors. He will never be able to die well regardless of what he does after the event, and everyone- his wife, daughter, sons, family and friends will know he is a coward.

Amen.

If my wife was there alone, I would hope someone would try to help her, although she carries a G19 and apparently will do more than many in this forum. I will give it my best effort or die trying, but I sure will not standby while people, especially women and kids are being slaughtered by some pasty faced coward.

FBI's analysis of the mass shootings in 2016 - 2017 analyzed 50 incidents. 8 of the 50 incidents were stopped by citizens. 4 incidents were stopped by citizens with concealed handgun licenses.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

This is after the fact. We always know what we should have done. Nobody goes to the store expecting to see a gunman. So you are surprised. Then I have to think. Twice I have met open carry at WM one I knew, the others were 3 PSAC guys buying ammo. I have seen uncased long guns being transferred to a different car. Is it a short range shot he doesnt expect as he concentrates on his target?l. The one thing sure is the other gun is out and already engaging while you assess the situation

If I have no other option I will fight. If the option to shelter in place is valid I would take it. I am not a trained LEO and am not an expert shot with my CC which I carry as a last resort. The possibility of wounding an innocent bystander as well as being mistakenly shot by a cop as the perp would be a deterrent. I have saved lives on 2 different occasion so I am willing to risk it when all other options aren't there.

No one really knows what they're capable of until actually put in a situation. I know what I think I would do. I hope I never have to find out.

This.

If I ran away from women and children getting killed, everything, EVERYTHING I swore an oath to means nothing. I don't see that happening.

I live across the street from a elementary school, where my youngest daughter went to school. I work mostly from home as an engineer. And, I am certain that if I hear shooting over there, I will grab an AR and get on the phone to the local PD, running to save those kids, while refusing their orders to wait for the police to "handle it."

I might get shot and killed by the popo because they don't know I'm the good guy. But no innocents will be harmed on my watch if I am in a position to do anything about it.

The saying below is copied everywhere these days. I wonder how many people really understand the significance of the the commitment necessary to "run toward the sound of gunfire."

I do. And I will.

Starman, what would you actually do. It seems you have put a great deal of thought into this. You're in the mall when the shooting starts, you're legally armed with a handgun. What will you do?

With my luck, I would be the first one the shooter puts his sights on.

Those that think abortion is just peachy....proly wont act with force to save others. Hell proly wont use force to save themselves.

I read the link.

The BG was wearing a bulletproof vest. Wilson died.





P

I saw some guys shooting their carry guns.....midsize semi auto polymer frame stuff.....a few Glocks and Sigs.....at my club a while back. Big steel disc at 25. Group size? About 4.........feet. High low left and right.

Have seen folks use their carry rigs on local indoor range. One cop chic had a few missed shots on a full size silhouette target.....at 21 ft.

A buddy handed me his Glock 23 and i shot the pop cans at 25 yards. Damn thing shoots great. He couldnt even scare a pop can at that distance.

Lots of handgun owners. Not as many handgun shooters.

Personally i aint worried about being dead.
Half dead would probably suck

Btw....will order adj rear sight for my new carry rig. Want pinpoint placement at 25. Then learn the hold for 50.

Who's trying to be? I don't recall anyone making any such claims.

But, a concealed handgun and the training to go with it DOES give you the capability to allow you to be an effective defender of your immediate sphere of influence.

Reba,

You don’t have to be an LEO to wade into the fight to save the lives of innocents.

You have to be courageous.

Those are different things.

Maybe you’re not lacking in credentials, but in the basics of manhood?

Fire guys all believe they are John McClane running around screaming yippee kiy yi yi ahh and slinging 9’s.

Most are not. Most would have missed and killed 6 civilians.

I would have been hisfucking huckleberry!

Right!

It’s “yippee ki yay [bleep]”
If you can’t get a classic quote correct, why should we take your judgment of individuals seriously?

Any reason you can’t holster and put your hands up when the cops show up?

If a gun fight happens either you’re going to win or you’re going to lose pretty damn quick. Pretty short window for a cop to get there and shoot the wrong guy.

Maybe you don’t see the cop who shoots you without warning before you can holster.

Or the other CC holder who doesn’t know you’re not the BG.



P

All a possibility but I’d like to think I’d take my chances if kids are getting shot

Has a good guy ever been killed by a cop while attempting to stop a shooting?

Good one NH K9 ! Made me bust out LMAO 🤠

First it really doesn’t happen. Good guys know a good guy when they see one. Second- who cares? If a good guy gets shot by another good guy, and the good shooter still hears gunfire he can run to it and end it. Oh but what about the poor father of three that was mistakingly killed? His three kids will know thier father was a man and died doing something. Not look upon him with shame and contempt for running away.


Seriously, if your life is more important than attempting to end it.... you’re not a man.

Here’s what the BIBLE says :

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A LeMat would have worked well. Shotgun if close, ball if far.

I spent a lot of years running in when everyone else was running out so I know what I’d do. I carry and I practice and train with it constantly. I have a range in my backyard so it makes doing so much easier.

I think God and I are good so I’d not hesitate so long as I didn’t bring fire down onto my family. THEY are my FIRST priority.....way above me and my self.

Does that include (assuming you’re a civilian, not an off-duty LEO) avoiding getting shot so you can survive to take care of them? Survival by declining to engage?




P

What if, what if. Phcuk, just stay home and order on line.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Don't be a coward but don't die needlessly with no hope for success.

I believe this fits here. Remember it:


Or as reported by some as more accurate:

Yep.

[bleep] this, I am not going to whimper and cry while covering my head trying to keep myself alive while others die. I would have to feed myself a bullet if I did that.

[bleep] all this, " A cop might shoot you" or "Another CCW holder might shot you" You are correct, that might happen. [bleep] it, let it happen.

But I will not spend the rest of my days knowing that I could have done something but was a [bleep] worthless self interested coward.

So if I have to take a bullet to save your wife or your daughter or your child I will do it. I will not take one for you because you are a man and you should be fighting with me.

So if I'm close enough to engage then I engage. Otherwise I help others to safety. Potential consequences be damned.

My guess you miss and kill a kid.

No!

Nowhere is anybody saying they’d shoot in a crowd of kids.

But you are saying you’d stand by and watch kids get shot. Good job.

If a baby was crawling into a busy intersection would you risk causing an accident by going into traffic and grabbing them?

Apples to carrots

Personally, I think engaging a vested up, rifle armed shooter who already has the rifle up and is pulling off shots,...with a handgun,..is a creative way to commit suicide.

Can you hit him in the melon when he's putting 3 rounds a second through your chest?

Let's be real here.

Unlikely.

I cannot say how I'd react, but if I could pre-program myself right now I'd have me move towards the shooter and engage, as men it is our duty to protect others and oppose evil.

Especially at my time in life..... already had a family, already raised a kid, already lived to see a grandchild. My ridiculers-in-chief are absent at present so I can compare it to gang activity in the school hallways; what you want to do is insert yourself into the flow of events the perpetrators had planned and send it off in some other direction by your interference..

Right now in my 60's I still have the mobility to present a threat. Surprising the shooter from behind or to the side would be best, as someone here said if he's wearing a vest aim for the pelvis.

If I died in the attempt my term life is still in effect, I leave a good story for others to tell about me and get to take another good story with me to the other side, and all we get to keep when we check out of this world are our stories. As a bonus I'd get to increase my odds of making it into the Good Place.

We do know that these shooters do seem to get rattled when faced with determined opposition, even in the event of my death it is entirely possible lives could be saved by at least delaying the shooter.

That's how I'd like to think I'd react.

Well said.

Shots directed at him would at least change his thought process from murder to self preservation.

What a let-down! No nekid women pictures! I did not look here for a long time after it came up knowing it would soon be a wonderful browsing opportunity...

JMc walked over broken glass to take out a group of seasoned terrorists ready for a seek and destroy gunFight ..

...a cowardly wackjob who targets innocents mainly cause they are unarmed soft targets
might not take the same effort to thwart....

but yes, after the Broward event many here said how brave they would have been in the face of such fire,

but who really knows how many would prove that good at their cyberspace word.



Roger that , will get back with a thought-out response.

99% of the time, I'm shopping alone. As long as I know my family is safe, I'm under no obligation to help others. With the realities of a justifiable shooting potentially costing me and my family everything, I'm going to pick and choose my battles carefully.

To the O.P. question, If I'm in a position to ambush a bad guy- and I have to know it's not just a brand new, clueless gun owner bringing his recently purchased AR into Walmart to return it- but a legitimate bad guy, then yes, I'd take him out.

On the other hand, if I'm armed with my usual carry, a .38 snubby or a an LCP, and he's got an AR on the other side of the store and there are dozens if not hundreds of panicked people running right thru my line of my fire, I'm getting out of Dodge. I'm not going to chance: going to jail and being sued for accidentally shooting an innocent fleeing bystander, or getting shot by the responding cops who saw me with a gun stalking someone in Walmart, or getting mowed down by the bad guy for trying to help a bunch of ungrateful Democrats who are going use the occasion to ban guns while my family tries to put their life back together.

If I, or my family is in immediate danger, all bets are off. I will fight to the death of one or both of us.

You dont when your # is up....
No one knows that.
Better to be armed than not.
If ya got a clear shot and possibly some good cover dump rounds on em.

Some millennial whack job vested up
Start taking out his lower body areas
Fugg, from the belly button down is all exposed.

Go out fighting.
You either survive or you dont.
Better than dying like live stock.

Fahqin' sanctimonious moron.

+1

Pretty much on point as usual from renegade or slumlord and I agree. That kid submitted as soon as he encountered force. Said he was going down fighting, didn't have the stomach for anything other that taking out unarmed people. I think most people are giving these wackos way to much credit. Most of these guys aren't the North Hollywood Bank Robbers, just some left wing socially offended white boy.

You started this thread three days ago and have posted nine times on it. You don't have a "thought-out response" response to your own question you asked?

Watch the New Zealand shooting and tell me he didn’t have complete tunnel vision. An unarmed person was able to get up to him. If that person would have had a hammer it might have went different

I have no idea how I would have responded. I have an incredibly strong protective instinct. I am willing to risk my life in service to others. I am also a practical thinker. I would not present myself for senseless slaughter. I think the tactical situation would guide my response, but I'll allow that under that much stress I don't really know what I'd do.

Would be extremely beneficial to have even a couple of minutes, let alone three days prior notice before a spontaneous mass public shooting event to come up with a real world, "thought-out response", that covered all possible variables, potential scenarios and unknowns.

Zactly.

Let's understand that I know my physiological stress response. I have been the target of someone trying to kill me four times. I carry scars from three slash wounds and two stab woulds a shoulder that ties me up ( that's what happens when the two locks on the end of the belt hit your shoulder after the glance off the side of your head). I've done that terrible two minutes those times and more.

Not exactly uncharted waters for me.

Depends on the angle of attack, side or rear, and no civilians in the way for a clear shot. If he was wearing a vest, probably leg or but shot for wound, head shot to kill. Hitting the bullet proof fest will knock the air out of him for additional shots.

Here's the gist of that legal end. If the cop, even one that barely passes qualification, goes in and fires his 15 round mag and misses. He injures or kills innocents. This cop will not be potentially charged with something in the homicide range, nor will he face personal civil liability. He is covered by sovereign immunity because he is acting as an agent of the state.

Would be extremely beneficial to have even a couple of minutes, let alone three days prior notice before a spontaneous mass public shooting event to come up with a real world, "thought-out response", that covered all possible variables, potential scenarios and unknowns.


[/quote]

Exactly. Tell us who where and time. I will be there with my trusty old 3030 and surprise him from cover, shoot him right through the liver. Never gonna happen

It depends. Family and kids first. Get them the hell outta there. That being said, I rarely make Walmart a family excursion. If I think I can get the drop on an active shooter with an AR platform to save lives, I like to think I will without hesitation, but I have never been in a hostile situation with gunfire. The times I’ve had rifle bullets zing past deer hunting put all senses on alert and I had a taste in my mouth that was not unlike a 9v battery. Adrenaline dump or so I’m told.

Trying to hit the apricot when firing from sporting goods to frozen foods in a Walmart with a G43 is a foolish proposition. Perhaps to provide cover fire for those trying to escape. Again, it all depends. It’s a dynamic situation. Best not to be part of the problem unless you can be reasonably sure you’re part of the solution.

A person never knows what he or she would do until you are in that situation.

It is all about mindset and commitment, some prepare to win while others surrender in advance because it is easier. I have heard a lot of excuses so far as to why you shouldn't put yourself at risk and find it appalling.

It becomes extra amusing when these same warriors bemoan gun control and extoll their role as victims of an unjust world that controls their choices.

Lots of losers and poosies exposing themselves on this thread. The OPs trolling post has had unexpected consequences.


mike r

Exactly

Does the casual interaction cyber waffle CF operate under EXAM conditions?, or must one answer within a certain life or death rigid time frame?

You wont get hard and fast instantly gratifying answers from me If I don't think thats the way I should answer your specific question under
cyberworld conditions.

you sound like a petty nit picking old man with an agenda.

You sound like a liberal troll, all mouth and no substance. You ask questions that you aren't able or willing to answer yourself do to no real core values that you are willing to stand behind. An expert on everything and nothing really at all.

No, You are pissed cause Im not playing your game the way you would like.

You didnt get what you wanted , now you chukKy a tantrum.

Nah, you have already forgot this was your game. You're not smart enough to realize it, but you just "outed" yourself in front of everyone. Not capable or have enough substance to answer a question you ask of everyone else

You started the question, now answer it. You consistently post as if you were a hard guy w/ insider info. Man up and show everyone who responded to your inquiry what you've got and where you got it. We are all waiting to hear from ' the source'.


mike r

Im finishing up my response in draught, and BTW nobody was obligated to answer my OP question.

There are several thousand hits on the thread , but nowhere near that many answers-responses,
Im fine with peoples free-will and all that.

its bitter old fools like you and IVmiker that have your nickers in a wad.

others have answered without 'demanding' anything from anyone else.



Hmmmm...I posted a subject anyone is free to contribute to or not contribute to, there are no strict demands
or conditions put in place for anyone, but you are desperately trying.

civil minded responses are appreciate by most people here, but you don't seem able to cope.




lol..... the CF is the place you like to Man Up and demand things..?..old man with obstinant child like behavior, very sad.

Have owned several sidearms in my day that were easy minute of dead punk out to 50 yards or a bit more and still have one I keep handy. Have been shot at many, many times at close range and though it is never a gentle experience I will say one tends to adapt to such affairs. So yes, to answer the question, if the perp doesn't shoot me at the beginning he or she is toast.

You are a puzzie and a fraud. Man up or disappear, again.


mike r

IVMiker, ...how many innocents will die on the CF If I don't respond in the time frame you 'demand'..?


why do you bitter irrelevant old men take the cyberspace CF so seriously?....where did you fail or fall short in life
that you need to desperately make up for it here?

You never made the grade you aimed for and since bitterly resent the rejection from your superior ability peers?

that's it..?

get over it fool.

"Im finishing up my response in draught"

Aren't you special.

Draughting works better that just shooting ones mouth off low attention span cHuKKY style...

You ask for it , now you got it ... ITs only a CF quality response but its sufficient , you don't deserve much else
bitch and nitpick away >>

#######

There are variables that would effect my minset and approach;

did I go in the place alone? , did I go in with family/children?, Am I in the place with an armed buddy I can trust?

I casually mix with a variety of types, at different times , just ordinary no conflict family guys who dont want to risk dying
[if their kids are not involved] ,some are tradesmen , or ordinary security job types of varying willingness or ability,
another is a federal LEO of quality I don't know, another is a seasoned Tier 1 vet that has piled up Alqaeda type bad guys,
has been on the teams designated for Anti- terror/hostage retrieval of political leaders during G20 world summit gatherings,
.. he has also been shot, stabbed, copped blasts from landmines and IEDs etc. ..he has lived and breathed it for decades
whether working for Gov or as a mercenary, he bares the scares but is still fit and active in the game, you don't want to screw
with him...and going by his appearance, chances are you would not pick him out of a crowd in Walmart etc.


so If I'm alone [more typically] , or fortunately with someone like that , or some cowering jelly-heart [when stuff goes down],
I doubt I would be the exactly the same person, cause others can and do have effect on you.
Depends who I am with would determine how much I may have to bite the bullet and step up ...or step back/down,
and let another with far superior nerve/skill /experience take precedence.


If there with your own family, they are priority #1,.. if I am there with my buddy and his children they become #1 in the absence of mine,
you may engage or go back in by choice , but you try and secure their well being first by what means available /necessary.
iF you can help others along the way all the better.

Groups of of besieged young little school children , yes I believe I would put myself at more risk for them than general adults.
I could not bring myself to think those kids are in there on their own between a rock and hard place, and me safe.

caring about the well being of cops would come below all of them.

Collateral damage, - yes it is a big concern for me... IF I could bring myself to play sensible hero that's great,
I would not want to play hero at any price.

>>>>>>>
FIGHT or FLIGHT
>>>>>>>

A natural thing in people, to much fight or flight can be inappropriate, not enough also can be in appropriate.
Striking the balance and the correct timing ?...can be tough, ...even more so in changing-highly dynamic circumstances.

then sometimes is NOT all Fight or Flight...,it can be SIT TIGHT and be ready for either of the other two.

Rushing toward / to engage Gunfire;

I don't like that word, rushing implies rashness and foolhardiness....QUICK thinking and QUICK acting with your head screwed on
- thats different....being proactive does not have to mean utterly rash reckless heroics.

You are taught the same thing when dealing with emergency situation power-engine failures in aircraft , ocean dunkings/sinking aircraft etc,
and when first responding to medically assist injured/trapped people in highly precarious situations,

You may not have much time [relatively speaking] ideally you think and pro-act quickly as trained and as is appropriate,
not Rash panic reactions.

Dangers can unfold and lurk seen and unseen{less obvious}...scatterbrain rashness can get you in seriously debilitating deep schitt
you could have reasonably minimised or avoided while still on the way to hopefully getting the demanding job done to some good degree,
...try not to become a victim of yourself out of your own sheer bonehead arrogant blind minded stupidity, thus undermining what limited
chances you may have had to make best opportunity of.

I always remember my flight instructor telling me that how you train and how well you do something in the final exam,
is stricter and not what I would expect of you in real world situation , there is some leeway.
In practice, you don't want to bend the machine in engine failure emergency landings cause you still need to train in it
and the owner won't be very happy.
In unexpected REAL emergencies, its ok If you end up bending the machine if everyone walks away alive and unhurt.
that's still a great effective emergency landing..

The thing about air related emergencies , is that unlike a shooting encounter , I DONT have the option to run away or hide,
I am obligated to adapt and deal with it right there and then or die... if I don't, it only gets worse and ONLY to my disadvantage if I don't.
some of that 'cant run away - take responsibility' , flows over and partly effects other areas of my attitude to life.

I suppose that principle can kinda apply to a reasonably competent ability foot forward CCW person willing to risk their life for a worthy cause,
..dont expect to proficiently textbook 'double tap' a perp like you do on paper or like a seasoned pro... but don't automatically think you cannot
potentially contribute to stopping or minimizing the damage an easily peturbed active perp has in mind.

if you by chance happen to come upon an onfire kickass perp who really knows his schitt and is not phased , well you may have option
to retreat ...or you take a bullet cause it wasnt your day, . such is life, just remember you roll the dice every time you head out the front door.
(whether you have your Witts about you or not)...what may greatly determine your day come what may,...will be your own awareness, attitude
willingness and mindset.

Outcomes in life are not guaranteed and you can be down on yourself If you don't Get the outcome you expected,
but one may have to ask whether ones expectations were realistic relative to the situation, your oportunities and abilities.

*****. *******
Folks should read about what a team of quickly scratched together last reminent mixed bag of 'very ordinary' US servicemen achieved
in the Ardennes Offensive,
While many other servicemen were abandoning their positions, vehicles, and weapons running in fear of the advancing German armor,
[some say in justified good sense] ..these guys decided they were going to hold a vital crossroad the Germans desperately needed to advance....

considering what they were up against youd think they were truly crazy and sucidial ,

As it turned out, their determination,courage and resilience put a much UNexpected spanner in the Germans armoured spearhead
advance to the west....their efforts at holding that cross road proved vital to the thwarting of an aggressive German offensive, they seriously
bogged the Germans momentum down.
Those guys showed extraordinary nerve, courage and discipline well beyond expectation and they weren't trained nothing like the 101st.
They may have just pulled it out of their asses without knowing they could really do it , but It is fact that they did achieve what I stated,
and they made a serious difference to how the Ardennes offensive went.

That was Draughting spectacular. I didn't read it, but it had to be special considering the source.

We need to consider the consequences of when faced with imminent chance of death, ones whole life can flash before ones eyes,

some don't want to chance experiencing that , cause they will disappointingly discover they didn't ever do anything worth watching. ...

I've noticed something about people who employ violence in a planned fashion like this. I'm talking about people who do not have a history, experience, in it. not applying to people who are experienced in it, who have grown up in it, to which violence is a first or early response.

It seems that if they don't have a history of carrying out violence the plan in their head, their preconceived course of events, is a fragile thing. Much like the inexperienced commanding officer with a battle plan in his head, who cannot adapt when those plans must change. So they fall apart in confusion, not knowing what to do.

How that applies to this thread, I don't know. It is just an observation that comes to mind.

"I've noticed something about people who employ violence in a planned fashion like this. I'm talking about people who do not have a history, experience, in it. not applying to people who are experienced in it, who have grown up in it, to which violence is a first or early response.

It seems that if they don't have a history of carrying out violence the plan in their head, their preconceived course of events, is a fragile thing. Much like the inexperienced commanding officer with a battle plan in his head, who cannot adapt when those plans must change. So they fall apart in confusion, not knowing what to do.

How that applies to this thread, I don't know. It is just an observation that comes to mind."

This applies in just the manner that I have been saying. These mass shooters are not badass Russian Special Forces types who have been in combat many times, and who have killed and been shot at before. These are Keyboard Commandos whose experience is video games.
So they are going to be much more vulnerable than an experienced combat veteran, and when met with armed opposition they are likely to just give up, or else, to go ahead and kill themselves.

It seems to me that when violence is responded to with violence, even unarmed, they realize there is no reset button. The game does not restart.

I've seen these weak minded men automatically cowering like they did before the bully's of their youth. Even men who have become strong and large, it's like an automatic physiological reaction.

starfish, your thoughtful reply that you so carefully "draughted" proves that you are both a puss and a fraud. A rambling diatribe invoking imaginary friends w/ "Tier 1" capabilities, implications of vast aviation experience and soldiers at Ardennes. You like to deride the experience of others yet constantly refuse to discuss the training and personal history that gives you any credibility to comment on any topic.

Many here have speculated that you are a sockpuppet of a previously disgraced member, if so it is understandable that you would hide your background. If not why would you not reveal some substance of your background to add some credibility to your implied expertise on so many topics?

If the old and ignorant members of the CF are not worthy of your efforts why do you return?



mike r

And even more careful that there isn't somebody else, like him, around.

I recall reading in the book, "Band of Brothers". The surviving members of Easy Company said they they took much more risk their first few days in combat than they would later. In a short period of time those who survived learned that minimizing risk was the key to survival.

It seems like a no brainer, but as young men new to the situation, they didn't truly realize that they could be killed. It didn't take long before they understood that they were in a situation that they would be lucky to survive.

After that they stopped taking unnecessary risks.

Same with domestic shooting situations. If you choose to engage the shooter, you better have a good plan that minimizes your risk or you're just going to die.

I could understand that with WWII soldiers. Most of those Germans had been fighting one war or another for generations. Like I have said before, none of these Mall or School shooters I can think of where North Hollywood Bank Robbers. All of them thought they where engaging unarmed kids and civilians and none of them I can remember put up any kind of fight when faced with Police Engagement. They either surrendered without engaging Police or shot themselves. They where not WWII soldiers in battle. The Good Plan is Man-up, seek cover for ambush because most seem to have tunnel vision and do the best you can. If you are a Concealed Carry Holder, you probably already have an advantage over a Socially Detached 21 year old who just bought his first AK. But to each his own.

You just covered rule #1. Life isn't a fairytale.

How the average CCW holder views himself.




Reality

had some millennial kid who is son of family friends....

He thinks no one should have firearms... so like most liberals he thinks we should all stand there like the other victims.

with our dicks in our hands and our mouths open in shock, and wait our turn to get wasted....

its liberals who cause these types to go into places and start shooting people so he can get his 15 seconds of Andy Warhol fame
in his otherwise worthless useless existence....

ban fire arms of all types.. they are bad...

promote violent video games with all sorts of killing in them... those are good for society...

then blame Trump for all that goes wrong....

you need to substitute some fat ass, millennial who resides in mom's basement for the lower pic....

Nothing wrong with the 2nd picture.

Yeah, I'm sure anyone thinking that old man was a pushover may be surprised busting in that old man's door some night. Glad callnum posted that, a man doing what he can for his own good when the police are only six minutes away and the threat is right in front of you. But I don't think he meant it like that.

Exactly.

Not as simple as it may seem.

DF

Everyone on the innanet is a badass UNTIL it is time to do BADASS shti. Then a whole different set of roles. Mental preparedness , training, situational awareness. Pull the trigger.

Were all gonna die at some point. Can you live with yourself if you had the chance to stop something like and chose to run and save yourself instead? I’ll do my best to give the shooter hell and if I die in the process, I guess it beats croaking in a nursing home after years of regret and saying what if....

That old man exudes more grit and fight than callnum or any of our other resident liberals.

Each man has to realize what he can do to defend himself despite their age. I know that a veteran in a wheelchair is not a soft target since I’ve helped many many disabled vets throughout the years choose and conceal their CCW. 😉

Be afraid of the man that must choose between fight or flight with the option of flight removed.

Currently building 3 pistol ranges in the yard at 20-40 yards and more simulated obstacles. The more one shoots and trains with their CCW the better for muscle memory and muscle memory is the key to putting training into action without “thinking” but with a situational awareness that allows one to be focused and determined without tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is inflexible when flexibility means survival.

Most people go about their everyday lives with their heads up their ass, oblivious of what's happening around them. Most gun owners are completely clueless as to how much they would benefit from training classes. One should give them a clue that they don't know schitt and that they should take as many as they can afford if they're serious. I've had these conversations with people that I know and they're convinced that they know everything they need to since they've "been shooters all their lives". I finally convince one to watch an I.C.E. training video by Rob Pincus. His reaction a few days later was "I never thought of all that". Yeah.........no schitt.

The world we live in is getting more evil by the day. People are going to have to change their thought processes to confront it. It's not like a couple generations ago where things like this occurred so little, that they were anomalies.

Slumlord on rent collection day.

Dieing ain’t much of a livin son.

That’s me in the second pic, you dumb ass.

LMFAO....

Funny!

Funnier if true!

Living like a coward ain’t much of a living

Food for thought: the Dayton incident was over in 32 seconds.

CHL stops a psycho with a rifle in a Walmart today.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5042...UoNNt4U3nzo52wFXjY_Kr6xvrLHX4UvKZiUFBGnE

Note Fox does not mention the CHL aspect, but changes focus.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/armed-man-arrested-at-missouri-walmart-police-say

First of all, you're WAAAAAY off with the first pic....... and sound like a diehard sheeple Liberal as well.


But in the second photo?

Looks to me like a home invader's worst nightmare; an elderly combat veteran, retired Cop or other hardcase who has seen an dealt with violence since way before the criminal was even born Furthermore a guy who knows he ain't got long to live anyhow ergo has little to lose.. A pity THAT guy wasn't in the right place in that Walmart.

JMHO

This is how heros think. Amen. After my families safe i am probably going to die but i am going to kill or stop the shooter in the process.its just how i think too.......

You haven’t been paying attention, right?

Do I think I could have thwarted the El Paso shooter?

Only if I could see him.

I am convinced there are those on the CF that get boozed up and euphoric when watching Dirty Harry over and over,

but deep down realise they will never know their limitations, cause they have no intention of exploring them.

WE live in a world where there will always be more men first in the lifeboats than insisting on being last on a sinking ship.

Using a large, typically crowded commercial building with wall to wall aisles of shelving, displays and merchandise like a Super Walmart as an example where a crazed shooter decides to start killing. The shooter could be anywhere inside the building when they start firing, --- standing right next to you, completely on the other side of the building, or anywhere in between.

Panicked crowds crying, screaming and running in all directions at the same time, all trying to get as far away as possible but uncertain where the sound of gunshots are coming from due to the chaos and loudness, echos and deflection by shelving, merchandise, etc.

Maybe there also could be other terrified ordinary gun carrying citizens with the same intentions of trying to put a stop to the shooter if they get a chance that one may encounter between you and were ever the crazed shooter is. Neither you nor they know for certain who or what the shooter looks like, how they are dressed, is at at any given moment, or, if there could be more than one crazed shooter.

Now plan from there...

El Paso footage shows shoppers 'running for their lives' but still lumbering their large filled shopping bags
and holding their coffees.




How many times have LE stopped short of taking down shooting spree perps by giving them more tham ample opportunity
to surrender? ...doesnt that put you in a similar boat?

Even where the perp has been slow to comply they have still taken them in without shots fired.

bUt if someone if fearful of what type of cops they might first encounter and don't want to roll the dice,
so be it.

AS far as the chances of being mistakenly shot by another brave Good citizen?, well after following this thread,
I'm beginning to figure chances would be rather slim. ..

If one don't like chances then don't out on the road tonight cause of the drink drivers.

It's been said, don't mess with an old dude, he'll take you out with his experience and treachery.

He WON'T be fighting fair...!

DF

The shooter will probably be the young skinny white boy wearing the black jacket with the AK doing the shooting. They usually stand out.

Except when they aren't? Weapon types used in mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and August 2019

So it's not a good idea to ever wear black when carrying in public? ...

Not while carrying a long gun and firing in a crowd.

Sticky business, facing off with an AK armed idiot with full body armor when all you have is a carry pistol.

Running away, getting as far away as you can is recommended. Think I would do just that. If cornered, I’d try to shoot him in the back of the head while he was swapping mags. Tricky, depends on a lot of things, position, etc. No simple answer.

Hope I’m never in that situation.

DF

I don't think the Elpaso perp had body armor
and the Ohio perp in armor went down to LE handgun fire in short time seemingly without challenging LE
He appeared entirely intent/focused on pursuing the unarmed innocents running away from him....
at least that's how it looks on CCTV.

Bruce Willis is just an actor.

I’d be a lot more afraid of that old dude with the scattergun.

It looks kinda like a Mossberg.

Sour looking guy with an ugly gun. Beware. He’s already mad.

DF

I agree DF but apparently callnum claims he’s the old man so I guess the joke is on me. 😂

Old men with shotguns....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...il-18-months-BLASTED-escort-shotgun.html

I can't believe you didn't just COPY and PASTE that entire article like you do all your post.

Where do I cut and paste all my written posts from ?

do you have such sources to prove your claim?

You and IVMiker should not struggle , bitter spent and irrelevant old men
should just follow the river of death where it takes them.

If you don't mind me asking Snowflakeman, just how old are you. You seem to have an unhealthy fascination for old men. Seems to be all you talk about. I bet I'm not as old as you think and you're not as young as you think either. Let's see if you are capable of a simple answer to a simple question.

if old man IVmiker was not hunching over the wheel and tailgating me so often on the CF ,

I would not be talking about lonely desperate insecure old men.

nOw I have you tailgating me..., enough said.

A guy tried to engage an active shooter that had an AK with a handgun in Tyler TX many years ago, but sadly he wasn’t successful.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

A LEO with an AR riding on the hood of a car eventually took out the shooter.

News says the Dayton shooter had body armor but he went down pretty easy. Is this yet another case of lying by the media?



P

Maybe they popped him in the grape.

Sure it is.....

It’s obvious that that’s the way he perceives himself at least. He must’ve been speaking metaphorically. 😉

Usually, what they call body armor is a "tactical" vest.

REALITY is, ... that man would not be casually shopping at Walmart wielding his trusty 12 guage,

..., lest he had lost his mind.

such home invasion deterrent has what to do with an El Paso type scenario?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?noredirect=on

starfish, you continue to make stupid statements in lieu of revealing the vast body of experience that supports the Walter Mitty persona that you try to project in your posts. The manner in which you disparage others of whom you know nothing reveals the shallowness of your thought process and your lack of character allowed by the anonymity of the internet. You apparently don't care for being asked to produce some sort of evidence of credibility but until you do expect to have this old man, figuratively, putting his insecure foot in your effeminate ass. That is much more fun than tailgating.


mike r

Does anyone remember the incident in which a street cop fired his pistol at an attacker from about 90 yards and hit the sucker in the head. Maybe 5 or so years ago and he was hailed as a hero. It may have been a mounted officer and a knife or sword armed sucker in a big NE city or across the pond.

Nah...

Joke is on a perp who confronts him.

DF

That 90 yard cop was good. Should have had wild bill there, 70 yards with a .36 navy

And he shot one handed. He was holding his horses reins with the other hand.

Oh sure, it starts like that, but it ends like this.....

^^^This^^^

The Fake News Media wouldn’t know body armor from a photographer’s vest.

RC, That was in Austin 3 or 4 years ago. One of our mutual friends, an Austin LEO, told me it was a damn lucky ass shot.

Plus.....most body armour wont stop rifles

True. A 30-30 will penetrate most body armor. Unless it has the “plates” in them.

don't know if i could have stopped him but i would have tried

You Sir are correctamundo !

A great video for everyone to think about:

No one knows how they will react to a situation like the Walmart shooting.No matter how much you practice shooting your weapon when the chit hits the fan everything changes.Everyone wants to think that they can be a hero and stop something like this while it is going down.The truth is when the bullets are flying you do not think rationally and a stupid mistake will cost your life and save nobody.If you are armed the best you can do is to protect yourself and those close by if possible.Rocky is right .The best thing is to vacate the area .Getting your self killed will not make you a hero.It will just make you dead.

If nothing else, this thread revealed that most people would be better served not to Conceal Carry, the added weight of the firearm and ammunition if loaded would only slow them down while running in the other direction.

Might add too that the bad guys almost always have the option to draw first blood. They can have gun (knife, club, bomb, etc.,?) already in hand, finger on trigger, whereas innocent legit concealed carry citizens can't and especially not in public facilities. Bystanders not initially put down literally only have maybe a few seconds tops to try to assess the situation, focus on their options, and decide if, how, and when to react.

I think the only thing worse than being in the situation where you had to use your sidearm in a crowded chaotic venue would be being there without your sidearm....

My first responsibility is to my family. I carry to protect them not the sheeple around me. I’m not Rambo.

If you see yourself differently that’s fine just make sure your levels of life insurance are appropriate. Keep an attorney on retainer as well.

2 basic responses to ultimate stress, fight or flight.

As others have noted it depends highly upon my situation at the time, me and granddaughter in the store alone, I’ve got to get her to safety somehow, in care of another adult I.e. but if grandma is with us, you two go that way fast as hell.

I’ve lived a very good full life, anything I get after this is just a bonus.

Past performance is no indicator of future results, but typically it’s the best we have to determine such.

I got involved in some hairy situations in my misspent youth, some gunplay etc. as an adult I’ve done the same to a degree through guiding mainly. We were so far away from anything you quickly realize you are 911 🤷🏻‍♂️ Going into the alder tangles looking for a wounded Bruin as the light is fading is not for the faint of heart.

Right off the bat, I’m no hero, have no illusions about such.

But I can’t rightly recall a situation where most smart folks would be headed the other way while I was headed towards the soup. 🤦🏼‍♂️

Every situation is different, every time is different. Who knows you might find me balled up in my own pizz pool in the above situation.

But I pray to my maker, if my family or other innocents are found in harms way that he give me the courage to act accordingly.

Doesn’t matter to me whether killed by the perp or LEO, no time to think about that stuff and dead Is dead anyway. If I never made a hit, I’d like to think I could buy some extra time for those seeking safety by engaging a mad man. Either causing him to look for cover or by engaging me, to give folks time to flee or LEO to arrive on scene.

I don’t know what I’d do, but I’d pray the good lord give me the courage, whether successful to neutralize the perp or just buy time, that my wife knew she spent the better part of her adult life sleeping by a man, a man with too many faults to list here, but a man nonetheless.

Cliche indeed, but dear lord give me the courage when I might make a difference.

Yep, this^^^

That shot was Heavenly sent.

I don't go to the Mall or everywhere my family does in public, maybe you do. My wife and family doesn't Conceal Carry, maybe yours does. If I'm not there, I would hope someone steps up and try to help and not everyone is running the other direction. I'll take care of the small stuff after everything else is over if everything comes out in my favor if the situation ever arises. Hope your family isn't the "sheeple"around everyone else if you're not there taking care of your "first responsibility". If you see yourself differently that’s fine just make sure your levels of life insurance are appropriate, and you have accepted the fate that no one else should intervene for someone's else family should you not be there with them.

He COULD have wiped out skid row in most any major city and drove home for lunch before the police got there.

But he didn't.

Didn't two Texas cops armed with handguns, stop a pair of wannabe Jihadists w/rifles, at some art festival a few years ago?