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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I read an article where many people on both sides of the spectrum, poor and relatively wealthy identify as being middle class. There's a reason for it as I guess most people don't want to be identified as outliers of the prosperity bell curve.
growing up around people with lower incomes, I always assumed we were middle class - because we all lived the same. The poor people were the people that didn't work and lived in a shack. That wasn't us - at least most of the time.
I remember asking my mom when I was old enough to ponder such things if we were middle class, her response was matter of fact - no, we aren't even close. She was perfectly comfortable in admitting we were poor
Knowing that - that admission by her, motivated me to find a way to rise out of it ,probably drives me in some small part to this day.
Last edited by KFWA; 11/07/19.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Campfire Outfitter
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Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? From about '61, it was a quarter acre lot in town. Four kids. Three bedrooms, including Mom & Dad. Yep. One car, much of the time. Some might have called it lower middle class, but we never thought of it that way. Thing is, we were always improving. Sometimes from Dad's self - improvement bringing promotions. Sometimes from sweat equity. Sweat equity.....Now there's a concept that seams to be largely unknown these days.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Always an arbitrary call what is middle class. For a lot of people, poor is a state of mind.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? From about '61, it was a quarter acre lot in town. Four kids. Three bedrooms, including Mom & Dad. Yep. One car, much of the time. Some might have called it lower middle class, but we never thought of it that way. Thing is, we were always improving. Sometimes from Dad's self - improvement bringing promotions. Sometimes from sweat equity. Sweat equity.....Now there's a concept that seams to be largely unknown these days. Yeah, because nobody under the age of 65 knows what sweat equity is? come on dude, if you want to be taken seriously then you need to lose the ad hominems. I know we are a product of our own experiences, but I was trying to get away from "well i had ...... and the folks up on the hill had....." . Yeah, I had no idea how poor we were when I was a kid till I was in HS. Dad worked, Mom was at home with us kids, and we went to church every week and my folks threw money away at starving pigmies or phillipinos or whatever. I had NO idea what the societal breakdowns were because it never entered my life. That doesn't mean I can't look back and form a more informed opinion on things.
MAGA
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Reading through this has been quite enlightening.....
FJB & FJT
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sorry if I was more caustic than I should've been EE.
Lots of variations from locale to locale.
If you want to introduce specific jobs into it, i.e. teachers, well that might be a different convo.
No problem at all Gruff. I just thought maybe I wasn't communicating right, which is not uncommon for me. I doubt we disagree on much.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
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Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? I did not know any "families of five". All I knew were families of six or eight or twelve. And they were struggling to make payments on 40 to 200 acres while keeping the cows milked twice a day, or doing the same on sharecropped ground. Two thirds of the boys in our grade school came to school with cow schitt on their boots every day. The other third were townie kids. But yes, the Moms all made every dress the girls wore, and they made the boys' shirts. They brought flour, and salt, and sugar home from the market and actually cooked three meals a day. Fast food? Nobody even knew the meaning. Frozen meals, that was something we saw advertised on TV. Probably marketed to the ultra-rich. My Grandparents raised six kids born over twelve years in 800 sq feet with two bedrooms. The girls got the bedroom. The boys slept on the two "davenports" in the living room. They always had a nice Buick purchased about ten years old and usually kept for five to ten years. And an older farm pickup. I remember they were still using a 52 Chevy pickup in 1975. And I remember a 59 Chevy Fleetside pu in 1979. Grandma always had a nice sewing machine, because that was more important than a new car. And she had a huge range with six big burners and two ovens, because the working men had to be fed. And nobody ever thought of them as poor. They always had cash available to buy a coat or shoes for a needy grandkid. They paid their tythe every month, and kept cash for the offering plate. And they always were quick with a helping hand for those less fortunate. And that is how "middle class"was defined by people I knew in the '60s/70s.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I know we are a product of our own experiences, but I was trying to get away from "well i had ...... and the folks up on the hill had....." . Yeah, I had no idea how poor we were when I was a kid till I was in HS. Dad worked, Mom was at home with us kids, and we went to church every week and my folks threw money away at starving pigmies or phillipinos or whatever. I had NO idea what the societal breakdowns were because it never entered my life. That doesn't mean I can't look back and form a more informed opinion on things.
Now that is funny. But you know, seriously, I had it rougher than the rest of y'all growin' up. hehehheh
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I know we are a product of our own experiences, but I was trying to get away from "well i had ...... and the folks up on the hill had....." . Yeah, I had no idea how poor we were when I was a kid till I was in HS. Dad worked, Mom was at home with us kids, and we went to church every week and my folks threw money away at starving pigmies or phillipinos or whatever. I had NO idea what the societal breakdowns were because it never entered my life. That doesn't mean I can't look back and form a more informed opinion on things.
Now that is funny. But you know, seriously, I had it rougher than the rest of y'all growin' up. hehehheh Prezactly. It turns into a "I had it worse than you did", or my parents ate grubs outta the dirt. Or my grandparents shidt on the dirt floor of the cabin that fed the grubs my parents ate. I'm not crapping on anybody or their families. And I'm not going to compare stories. You make it or you don't. It's America. It's on you. Period. BTW, if a guy wants to get into the disparity of opportunity between generations, how many of the farmers on the 'fire took out loans and bought their own land and equipment and how many are working land handed down with equipment that they didn't finance? Not many if any I'd bet. And no, by NO WAY is that a knock. I'm from farming stock, I know how it works. My cousin is trying like HELL to make a small dairy work that my grandpa started when he got home from WWII. My point is you can't do it and make it today. And it's a crying damned shame. Rant off. Peace on Urth good will to men.
MAGA
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I don't recall hearing the term "vent Window" they always referred to as wind wings,
I miss them. We called em Fly windows.
I am MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Borrowing money to buy land and start a farm is silly
A person shouldn't do such a thing.
I am MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2011
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I don't recall hearing the term "vent Window" they always referred to as wind wings,
I miss them. We called em Fly windows. We called them vent windows down here.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Borrowing money to buy land and start a farm is silly
A person shouldn't do such a thing. That's the problem with you youngins you just don't think things through. Any boomer worth a grain of salt would have inherited the property, owed nothing and hired someone to run it. Sheesh. 
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
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Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? From about '61, it was a quarter acre lot in town. Four kids. Three bedrooms, including Mom & Dad. Yep. One car, much of the time. Some might have called it lower middle class, but we never thought of it that way. Thing is, we were always improving. Sometimes from Dad's self - improvement bringing promotions. Sometimes from sweat equity. Sweat equity.....Now there's a concept that seams to be largely unknown these days. Yeah, because nobody under the age of 65 knows what sweat equity is? come on dude, if you want to be taken seriously then you need to lose the ad hominems. If you're going to criticize my argument with a stretch to claim ad hominem, you shouldn't preface it with the "nobody under age 65" straw man. I deliberately did not put an age group to that, precisely because it would be hard to define. The ratio of handy individuals to the general population always tends to get thinner with increased prosperity. I expect that the ratio will change, if it becomes necessary.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Posts: 10,260
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,260 |
Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? I did not know any "families of five". All I knew were families of six or eight or twelve. And they were struggling to make payments on 40 to 200 acres while keeping the cows milked twice a day, or doing the same on sharecropped ground. Two thirds of the boys in our grade school came to school with cow schitt on their boots every day. The other third were townie kids. But yes, the Moms all made every dress the girls wore, and they made the boys' shirts. They brought flour, and salt, and sugar home from the market and actually cooked three meals a day. Fast food? Nobody even knew the meaning. Frozen meals, that was something we saw advertised on TV. Probably marketed to the ultra-rich. My Grandparents raised six kids born over twelve years in 800 sq feet with two bedrooms. The girls got the bedroom. The boys slept on the two "davenports" in the living room. They always had a nice Buick purchased about ten years old and usually kept for five to ten years. And an older farm pickup. I remember they were still using a 52 Chevy pickup in 1975. And I remember a 59 Chevy Fleetside pu in 1979. Grandma always had a nice sewing machine, because that was more important than a new car. And she had a huge range with six big burners and two ovens, because the working men had to be fed. And nobody ever thought of them as poor. They always had cash available to buy a coat or shoes for a needy grandkid. They paid their tythe every month, and kept cash for the offering plate. And they always were quick with a helping hand for those less fortunate. And that is how "middle class"was defined by people I knew in the '60s/70s. Dood - you were poor!
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,260
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't recall hearing the term "vent Window" they always referred to as wind wings,
I miss them. We called em Fly windows. Open that vent and suck the fly out. Yeah - I miss 'em for that reason.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,481 Likes: 27 |
I don't recall hearing the term "vent Window" they always referred to as wind wings,
I miss them. We called em Fly windows. Open that vent and suck the fly out. Yeah - I miss 'em for that reason. They were also real handy for breaking into your own vehicle if you locked your keys in it. 😬
Last edited by chlinstructor; 11/07/19.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,100 Likes: 20 |
I did not know any "families of five". All I knew were families of six or eight or twelve. And they were struggling to make payments on 40 to 200 acres while keeping the cows milked twice a day, or doing the same on sharecropped ground.
Two thirds of the boys in our grade school came to school with cow schitt on their boots every day. The other third were townie kids.
But yes, the Moms all made every dress the girls wore, and they made the boys' shirts. They brought flour, and salt, and sugar home from the market and actually cooked three meals a day.
Fast food? Nobody even knew the meaning. Frozen meals, that was something we saw advertised on TV. Probably marketed to the ultra-rich.
My Grandparents raised six kids born over twelve years in 800 sq feet with two bedrooms. The girls got the bedroom. The boys slept on the two "davenports" in the living room.
They always had a nice Buick purchased about ten years old and usually kept for five to ten years. And an older farm pickup. I remember they were still using a 52 Chevy pickup in 1975. And I remember a 59 Chevy Fleetside pu in 1979.
Grandma always had a nice sewing machine, because that was more important than a new car. And she had a huge range with six big burners and two ovens, because the working men had to be fed. And nobody ever thought of them as poor. They always had cash available to buy a coat or shoes for a needy grandkid. They paid their tythe every month, and kept cash for the offering plate. And they always were quick with a helping hand for those less fortunate.
And that is how "middle class"was defined by people I knew in the '60s/70s. Dood - you were poor! Okay, growing up, my family was poor. We were the grandkids most often gifted coats and shoes from Grandpa and Grandma. But never a dime in assistance. Gifts from grandma is not assistance.  But no. Grandpa and Grandma were not poor. There is a big difference between frugal and poor) Also money goes much further when none is spent on alcohol or tobacco. They always had a substantial savings account. When they finally quit milking their little herd of thirty Guernsey cows (retired) they were in their mid eighties. They both passed away at home in their own bed in their mid nineties. And their savings were enough to provide for 24 hr in home care for their last five years. But they both worked 14 hr days six days a week and about four hours on Sabbath (still have to move the irrigation water and feed/milk the cows) from their early teen years. The biggest problem with the younger generation is that they expect 40 hrs/week today to produce the same standard of living which their parents or grandparents earned by working sixty to eighty hr/week. And now we hear the little snowflakes crying for a thirty hour week. I see it every day in my workplace. The older guys (forty to sixty) will put in 72 to 84 hrs when the need arises. We are darned lucky to get the twenty to thirty year olds to work four twelves.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Ranger
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Mostly our definitions of lower class, middle class, and upper class have changed. Middle class used to mean two to three kids in a bedroom and a purchase of one used car per family, which was parked in the driveway.
Exactly how I remember my childhood. And my parents always identified as middle class. So for clarity, a family of 5, in a 2 bedroom house with one used car was middle class? Not your perception, step back. Is this on a lot in town? How big is the lot? I did not know any "families of five". All I knew were families of six or eight or twelve. And they were struggling to make payments on 40 to 200 acres while keeping the cows milked twice a day, or doing the same on sharecropped ground. Two thirds of the boys in our grade school came to school with cow schitt on their boots every day. The other third were townie kids. But yes, the Moms all made every dress the girls wore, and they made the boys' shirts. They brought flour, and salt, and sugar home from the market and actually cooked three meals a day. Fast food? Nobody even knew the meaning. Frozen meals, that was something we saw advertised on TV. Probably marketed to the ultra-rich. My Grandparents raised six kids born over twelve years in 800 sq feet with two bedrooms. The girls got the bedroom. The boys slept on the two "davenports" in the living room. They always had a nice Buick purchased about ten years old and usually kept for five to ten years. And an older farm pickup. I remember they were still using a 52 Chevy pickup in 1975. And I remember a 59 Chevy Fleetside pu in 1979. Grandma always had a nice sewing machine, because that was more important than a new car. And she had a huge range with six big burners and two ovens, because the working men had to be fed. And nobody ever thought of them as poor. They always had cash available to buy a coat or shoes for a needy grandkid. They paid their tythe every month, and kept cash for the offering plate. And they always were quick with a helping hand for those less fortunate. And that is how "middle class"was defined by people I knew in the '60s/70s. my 81 year old wife at some points could not start school in arizona, didn't have any shoes. think about that, in the summer, in arizona. She is still embarrassed by the fact as a little girl her underpants were made out of floor sacks. and yes, her father was a cotton sharecropper, and she often worked in the field. my mother was a .75cent an hour waitress, my dad died at my age of 17. I started working for pay at about age 9, and at 72 still working, sort of, although the actual need to do so passed years ago. I was always afraid of being hungry or not having any money. Mortgage on a house, perish the thought. No way. what aggravates me about the great grandkids is lack of direction, inability to have a game plan, and wanting everything NOW rather than setting goals and working towards it. as to the cars, i surely have the ability to pay cash for a 50K vehicle. The problem is i refuse to do it paying more for that than my first house. so i have multiple 20year old cars that when i get through with them will go to the junk yard.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 11/07/19.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Outfitter
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Sorry if I was more caustic than I should've been EE.
Lots of variations from locale to locale.
If you want to introduce specific jobs into it, i.e. teachers, well that might be a different convo.
There is plenty of variation in priorities as to how earnings are spent and long term planning. We raised 4 kids and never bought a boat or a pool but those kids travelled and experienced the cultures of 4 continents before they graduated from high school. 3 of 4 graduated from college and the other one owns a software company. I was raised w/ the example that kids are job 1 and that quality of life was measured by experiences and not possessions. My grandkids appear to believe that hard work and integrity are worthwhile virtues. Intergenerational conflict should be seen as a challenge, not a threat. There are some in here that are malcontents, and age does not seem to be the determining factor. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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