Trump used his personal lawyer (Rudy) and his personal lawyer's cohorts to attempt to get a foreign government to commit an act for his personal benefit, not for the country's benefit. Rudy doesn't work for the government, doesn't have a security clearance and didn't have the formal backing of the Department of State or Department of Defense.
In fact, Rudy and his cohorts have either already been indicted in New York for their actions in this, or in the case of Rudy, will soon be.
Case closed. Trump used the power of the office for his benefit, not the country's. If his actions were for the benefit of the country he would have used official channels. Instead he used his personal attorney and his personal attorney's criminal cohorts.
I don't care.
I wouldn't care if the American government started pitching commies out of helicopters.
Can I be in the helicopter when they start throwing out the commies ?? This I got to see.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
Hey, Rollingturdball, newsflash: Trump IS OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CHANNELS. That's why he is called Mr. President (but YOU be sure and be on your knees with eyes looking down should you ever address him or speak of him...you are not worthy).
Yes, he is. But Rudy, Lev and Igor are not. That's why they we're indicted. And three or four others so far. There will be more.
Poor Rudy. He wen't from America's Mayor to road kill. Maybe Trump will pardon him.
POTUS can send anyone he pleases as an emissary. Trump is POTUS and will remain so. Get over it.
He can send anyone he pleases AND get impeached for it. There, fixed it for you.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
1) Trump asked foreign entities to interfere in our democratic process, numerous times, and publicly. This can not be denied. This is an impeachable offense.
2) Trump committed congressional obstruction against the Constitutional oversight the House has over the Executive, by blocking subpoenas. This has been very public and can not be denied.
These are facts.
Like others have said, the second point above denied access to more facts and evidence of additional offenses. If you're not satisfied with the amount of evidence, it is because of this. To any impartial person, how could they not see the defense strategies of the Trump and the GOP as those of a guilty party?
Another fact: I identify more as a conservative but I am having a really hard time supporting my party when it fights against accountability.
lololololololololololololololololol
Trump was duty bound under a treaty to ask for the investigation. That's but a small part of the reason the Democrats abandoned that angle and shifted it to abuse of power instead of bribery or violation of federal election laws.
Trump, as so many before him did, asserted executive privilege. When the legislative branch and the executive branch come to an impasse, the judicial branch provides remedy, not the impeachment process.
Upset at the sky rocketing Trump approval from Blacks, hispanics and Jews?
Originally Posted by RollingThunder
Originally Posted by Bristoe
Originally Posted by RollingThunder
Trump used his personal lawyer (Rudy) and his personal lawyer's cohorts to attempt to get a foreign government to commit an act for his personal benefit, not for the country's benefit. Rudy doesn't work for the government, doesn't have a security clearance and didn't have the formal backing of the Department of State or Department of Defense.
In fact, Rudy and his cohorts have either already been indicted in New York for their actions in this, or in the case of Rudy, will soon be.
Case closed. Trump used the power of the office for his benefit, not the country's. If his actions were for the benefit of the country he would have used official channels. Instead he used his personal attorney and his personal attorney's criminal cohorts.
I don't care.
I wouldn't care if the American government started pitching commies out of helicopters.
Oh, c'mon, you care. You're just angry that your children and grandchildren will be slaves to the blacks, browns, jews and muslims.
They're coming for you, Bristoe. Can you hear the footsteps? They're coming for you. lol.
1) Trump asked foreign entities to interfere in our democratic process, numerous times, and publicly. This can not be denied. This is an impeachable offense.
2) Trump committed congressional obstruction against the Constitutional oversight the House has over the Executive, by blocking subpoenas. This has been very public and can not be denied.
These are facts.
Like others have said, the second point above denied access to more facts and evidence of additional offenses. If you're not satisfied with the amount of evidence, it is because of this. To any impartial person, how could they not see the defense strategies of the Trump and the GOP as those of a guilty party?
Another fact: I identify more as a conservative but I am having a really hard time supporting my party when it fights against accountability.
Hey paddler, do you get paid extra if you say the bolded part?
The facts are there. How about a rational evaluation of them instead of denial and distraction.
How can you have a rational evaluation when the whole thing is nothing more than an irrational endeavor by irrational, treasonous, a$$holes (such as yourself) who want to overthrow this President? You and everyone like you need to go spend a year in a truly communist country to get a real dose of life.......................or death, but leave my Country alone. I gave an oath almost 50 years ago and am still bound by it and I for one am getting pretty sick of you communist Ba$tards.
I am not sure what to say first, so I'll start with that I am not a troll, nor did my account get hacked. I guess I was too presumptive, assuming people here pay attention to various sources, that I wouldn't need to start from scratch. And I apologize for not posting more, I had some work to get done today and I really didn't think this thread would blow up like it did.
I try to not be political on the internet as, well, this thread exemplifies, it's hardly ever productive. I started this thread out of frustration of what I see going on in D.C.. The tribal, "win at all cost", truth be damned, tone. No matter where we may sit on the impeachment topic, you've got to be disheartened as an American by the behavior there. I may see good reason to impeach, but that in no way means that I endorse the democratic party's strategies or rhetoric. Say it with me: Both sides are guilty. Casting lies back upon other liars just doesn't work. At some point, hopefully, electees, have to say enough, take a good look in the mirror and hold themselves accountable work for the success of the country instead of their re-election.
I'll try to address some of the other points raised in my direction. Regarding Biden, I am all for investigating him. Crucify him, disqualify him from running again, but whatever he did, it still doesn't excuse what Trump's done. What has Trump done? The two items I listed on page 3. Soliciting help from a foreign entity for personal gain (even disregarding Ukraine for the moment, he's asked Russia and China to investigate his political rivals). More concerning, however, he also obstructed the House's constitutional role of oversight. I do understand Executive Privilege, it is important but it does not supersede the fundamental design of a checked government. No other body has the responsibility to hold the President accountable via impeachment than the House of Representatives. If the Executive can deny the House from investigating him, then we do not have a checked Executive branch and our Constitution is violated.
Criminal charges are not required to impeach. A quid pro quo is not required to impeach. I don't know what constitution some people are following here.
Presidents asking foreign governments for personal favors most certainly did not happen since the beginning of time. Giving aid with strings attached for the benefit of the United States, definitely. But for personal gain, that's completely different and can not be confused with. If they did, please share and let's take care of them too.
The House is operating under the processes set when the GOP had the majority there.
Alluding to facts and asking for an honest discussion . . . is that so inflammatory? If that gets your panties in a twist, I feel sorry for you.
Lastly, I find it telling when the major defense for Trump by the GOP is that we 'just don't know'; in the same manner as the tobacco industry denied the connection to lung cancer. Far too often, our own intelligence community, FBI investigations, non-political government officials (including Trump appointees) reach similar conclusions, for Trump, GOP allies, and biased commentators to just say, oh, that person didn't vote for Trump so their professional work is questionable or unbelievable; "No one really knows", or just flat out lies to keep their party voters hearing what they want to hear. There comes a point when you have to realize that the WWE is fake. I get that it may be all fun to believe, to fantasize about throwing people out of helicopters, but come on people. What level of behavior are we willing to pass on to the next President, which eventually won't be Trump.
1) Trump asked foreign entities to interfere in our democratic process, numerous times, and publicly. This can not be denied. This is an impeachable offense.
2) Trump committed congressional obstruction against the Constitutional oversight the House has over the Executive, by blocking subpoenas. This has been very public and can not be denied.
These are facts.
Like others have said, the second point above denied access to more facts and evidence of additional offenses. If you're not satisfied with the amount of evidence, it is because of this. To any impartial person, how could they not see the defense strategies of the Trump and the GOP as those of a guilty party?
Another fact: I identify more as a conservative but I am having a really hard time supporting my party when it fights against accountability.
...........................Well your facts are in dispute and I will dispute them.
As to your #1......You say in #1 the usual demCRAP talking points that "THIS CANNOT BE DENIED"....Sorry! NO IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES. You like your allies in the press and demCRAPS, always use hyperbole, but never itemize exactly how Trump's offenses ARE high crimes and misdemeanors AS IT RELATES TO THE CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES...
Now please let me educate you sir. Write this down and sleep on it.........Under Article 2 of the US Constitution, ANY SITTING POTUS has the authority and is duty bound to investigate any foreign corruption BEFORE ANY AID IS RELEASED to any country suspected of corruption. It does NOT MATTER if the person or persons under investigation are the Bidens or anyone else either running for US political office or otherwise.....THIS IS NOT interfering in our democratic process.......And let me further remind you that the Biden/Ukraine connection has been under investigation by the DOJ and State Dept LONG BEFORE any impeachment hearings began......
As to your #2........It is quite obvious that you are completely ignorant on what the definitions of EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE are AS WRITTEN under the law and completely ignorant on what the definitions and laws are regarding SEPERATION OF POWERS AS WRITTEN under the law and how these two relate to the executive branch, the judicial branch and the legislative branches of the federal govt.....
YOUR FACTS as are the demCRAP facts, are based on emotion driven by hatred for the POTUS...
If you wish to present some facts that cannot be denied,,,,THEN LET US ALL SEE THEM in any future post,,,that supports impeachment based on WHAT THE CONSTITUTION says and NOT what you emotionally FEEL or THINK based on opinion......Site the CONSTITUTION to justify impeachment..........PERIOD!!.
1) Trump asked foreign entities to interfere in our democratic process, numerous times, and publicly. This can not be denied. This is an impeachable offense.
2) Trump committed congressional obstruction against the Constitutional oversight the House has over the Executive, by blocking subpoenas. This has been very public and can not be denied.
These are facts.
Like others have said, the second point above denied access to more facts and evidence of additional offenses. If you're not satisfied with the amount of evidence, it is because of this. To any impartial person, how could they not see the defense strategies of the Trump and the GOP as those of a guilty party?
Another fact: I identify more as a conservative but I am having a really hard time supporting my party when it fights against accountability.
No, those are not facts. Those are statements, assertions, and opinions.
A fact is something supported by evidence (evidence by legal definition).
I may see good reason to impeach, but that in no way means that I endorse the democratic party's strategies or rhetoric. Say it with me: Both sides are guilty.
I am not sure what to say first, so I'll start with that I am not a troll, nor did my account get hacked. I guess I was too presumptive, assuming people here pay attention to various sources, that I wouldn't need to start from scratch. And I apologize for not posting more, I had some work to get done today and I really didn't think this thread would blow up like it did.
I try to not be political on the internet as, well, this thread exemplifies, it's hardly ever productive. I started this thread out of frustration of what I see going on in D.C.. The tribal, "win at all cost", truth be damned, tone. No matter where we may sit on the impeachment topic, you've got to be disheartened as an American by the behavior there. I may see good reason to impeach, but that in no way means that I endorse the democratic party's strategies or rhetoric. Say it with me: Both sides are guilty. Casting lies back upon other liars just doesn't work. At some point, hopefully, electees, have to say enough, take a good look in the mirror and hold themselves accountable work for the success of the country instead of their re-election.
I'll try to address some of the other points raised in my direction. Regarding Biden, I am all for investigating him. Crucify him, disqualify him from running again, but whatever he did, it still doesn't excuse what Trump's done. What has Trump done? The two items I listed on page 3. Soliciting help from a foreign entity for personal gain (even disregarding Ukraine for the moment, he's asked Russia and China to investigate his political rivals). More concerning, however, he also obstructed the House's constitutional role of oversight. I do understand Executive Privilege, it is important but it does not supersede the fundamental design of a checked government. No other body has the responsibility to hold the President accountable via impeachment than the House of Representatives. If the Executive can deny the House from investigating him, then we do not have a checked Executive branch and our Constitution is violated.
Criminal charges are not required to impeach. A quid pro quo is not required to impeach. I don't know what constitution some people are following here.
Presidents asking foreign governments for personal favors most certainly did not happen since the beginning of time. Giving aid with strings attached for the benefit of the United States, definitely. But for personal gain, that's completely different and can not be confused with. If they did, please share and let's take care of them too.
The House is operating under the processes set when the GOP had the majority there.
Alluding to facts and asking for an honest discussion . . . is that so inflammatory? If that gets your panties in a twist, I feel sorry for you.
Lastly, I find it telling when the major defense for Trump by the GOP is that we 'just don't know'; in the same manner as the tobacco industry denied the connection to lung cancer. Far too often, our own intelligence community, FBI investigations, non-political government officials (including Trump appointees) reach similar conclusions, for Trump, GOP allies, and biased commentators to just say, oh, that person didn't vote for Trump so their professional work is questionable or unbelievable; "No one really knows", or just flat out lies to keep their party voters hearing what they want to hear. There comes a point when you have to realize that the WWE is fake. I get that it may be all fun to believe, to fantasize about throwing people out of helicopters, but come on people. What level of behavior are we willing to pass on to the next President, which eventually won't be Trump.
............................Read my last post....................The Constitution is the final authority for determining impeachment....NOT YOUR OPINIONS and NOT what YOU consider as facts....
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
.......................Squidge......Go back and read my second to last post to akmtnrunner 3rd paragraph beginning with,,, Under article 2 of the US Constitution,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You need to more clear than just "go read", you tend to ramble.
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
I am not sure what to say first, so I'll start with that I am not a troll, nor did my account get hacked. I guess I was too presumptive, assuming people here pay attention to various sources, that I wouldn't need to start from scratch. And I apologize for not posting more, I had some work to get done today and I really didn't think this thread would blow up like it did.
I try to not be political on the internet as, well, this thread exemplifies, it's hardly ever productive. I started this thread out of frustration of what I see going on in D.C.. The tribal, "win at all cost", truth be damned, tone. No matter where we may sit on the impeachment topic, you've got to be disheartened as an American by the behavior there. I may see good reason to impeach, but that in no way means that I endorse the democratic party's strategies or rhetoric. Say it with me: Both sides are guilty. Casting lies back upon other liars just doesn't work. At some point, hopefully, electees, have to say enough, take a good look in the mirror and hold themselves accountable work for the success of the country instead of their re-election.
I'll try to address some of the other points raised in my direction. Regarding Biden, I am all for investigating him. Crucify him, disqualify him from running again, but whatever he did, it still doesn't excuse what Trump's done. What has Trump done? The two items I listed on page 3. Soliciting help from a foreign entity for personal gain (even disregarding Ukraine for the moment, he's asked Russia and China to investigate his political rivals). More concerning, however, he also obstructed the House's constitutional role of oversight. I do understand Executive Privilege, it is important but it does not supersede the fundamental design of a checked government. No other body has the responsibility to hold the President accountable via impeachment than the House of Representatives. If the Executive can deny the House from investigating him, then we do not have a checked Executive branch and our Constitution is violated.
Criminal charges are not required to impeach. A quid pro quo is not required to impeach. I don't know what constitution some people are following here.
Presidents asking foreign governments for personal favors most certainly did not happen since the beginning of time. Giving aid with strings attached for the benefit of the United States, definitely. But for personal gain, that's completely different and can not be confused with. If they did, please share and let's take care of them too.
The House is operating under the processes set when the GOP had the majority there.
Alluding to facts and asking for an honest discussion . . . is that so inflammatory? If that gets your panties in a twist, I feel sorry for you.
Lastly, I find it telling when the major defense for Trump by the GOP is that we 'just don't know'; in the same manner as the tobacco industry denied the connection to lung cancer. Far too often, our own intelligence community, FBI investigations, non-political government officials (including Trump appointees) reach similar conclusions, for Trump, GOP allies, and biased commentators to just say, oh, that person didn't vote for Trump so their professional work is questionable or unbelievable; "No one really knows", or just flat out lies to keep their party voters hearing what they want to hear. There comes a point when you have to realize that the WWE is fake. I get that it may be all fun to believe, to fantasize about throwing people out of helicopters, but come on people. What level of behavior are we willing to pass on to the next President, which eventually won't be Trump.
............................Read my last post....................The Constitution is the final authority for determining impeachment....NOT YOUR OPINIONS and NOT what YOU consider as facts....
I totally agree. I can't impeach anyone. But I can read and listen to Trumps own words and decisions. Under impeachment investigation (protected process to the House by the Constitution) he stopped people from giving subpoenaed testimony, did he not???? That's not a matter of opinion.
Did you answer the question as to whether or not Trump's public statement can be viewed as "evidence"?
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/gBfQOdl.jpg)
