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I think in archery it is even more apparent that mass and not velocity is more important for penetration when hunting.
But I think the 300 mag with a 200 grain bullet or perhaps a 180 grain monolith would outperform a .308 Winchester. Both long range and point blank.
I think 165 grains is where the 308 would be best suited. Perhaps 150 grain monolithic.
But I like 180 / 165 NP s in me .308 win. My .308 Norma hurted my hand. I ain't forgave it yet.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That simply isn't true about penetration in all cases. Nothing said about penetration in this entire thread is true in all cases. MM's quote comes as close as anything said here.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute.
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Campfire Ranger
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute. There are so many variables it's easy to argue any point. Mine is generally correct.
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That simply isn't true about penetration in all cases. Nothing said about penetration in this entire thread is true in all cases. MM's quote comes as close as anything said here. Exactly, and a fact lost on the elk wounder in chief.
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...
Penetration given the same bullet is caused by how much velocity it strikes the target with.
... ...
Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.
Actually it does. The fact you can't grasp this is telling.
If you restrict my statement to monos or spitzer solids and selected FMJs, I would agree that higher velocity will generally result in greater penetration but I would not contend that is always the case.. With jacketed bullets, lower velocities will often result in higher penetration, as has been demonstrated many times. Again, that depends. What is a fact, is you dont have a clue. The Handloader test was a good one... right click on the pic and choose "view image" for the closeup of results, then enlarge again with a left click.
It's true, velocity is generally the enemy of deep penetration...
[image deleted It surely is with lead and copper bullets that tend to expand to s wide frontal area. …. Welcome to the ranks of the people who do in fact “have a clue”. Gee, I wonder why you left out part of your post from quotations? Ever cross your senial mind that the below quoted text was what I was referring to? " So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.."
Last edited by BWalker; 02/17/20.
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute. There are so many variables it's easy to argue any point. Mine is generally correct. This is a common misconception.
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Go back and take a good look at the photo Brad posted. There are 38 different bullets represented in that chart. Designs include cup-and-core, dual core, bonded and monos. They include A-Square Dead Tough; Alaska Kodiak; Barnes X; Bitterroot Bonded; Federal Hi-Shok; Hawk .030” and .035” jacketed; Hornady SP, BTSP and RN InterLock; Nosler Ballistic Tip and Partition; Remington Bronze Point and SP an RN Core-Lokt; Sierra GameKing, MatchKing and Pro-Hunter SP and RN; Speer Grand Slam, Mag-Tip, RN, SP and SPBT; Swift A-Frame; Trophy Bear Claw; Winchester Failsafe, Power-Point and Silvertip; and six others. Don’t bother looking for one that always penetrates further as velocity increases – there aren’t any. Quite often the greatest penetration is at the lowest velocities by a wide margin – by 2x to about 5x. I don’t see a lot of bullet dependency there. As in none. And I’ll stand by my statements: So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.
Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Pretty cool there was only about 1” of penetration difference between the Partition from top speed to low speed. About the same for the TSX...
I guess either of them get plenty far enough in animals for me. I’ll take wide frontal areas myself on game vs a couple inches of penetration, but I’m just an elk and deer hunter.
Semper Fi
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute. There are so many variables it's easy to argue any point. Mine is generally correct. This is a common misconception. it's also a common misconception that anybody really gives a sh-it what anybody else is shooting.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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it's also a common misconception that anybody really gives a sh-it what anybody else is shooting.
LOL,as long as it's not one of those damn .30-06's, those things are just 'tweeners, halfway betwixt the hallowed .300 magnums and the demure .308!
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Higher velocity, same bullet, more penetration...….unless the bullet blows up.
Sometimes slower bullet holds together better at closer distances. Faster bullet delivers more horsepower at all distances.
You need to understand how your bullet will perform at whatever velocity you are driving it. Pick the right one for the job.
That's not true. A lot of times more speed means bigger wound channel and decreased penetration due to more expansion. I would agree that higher velocity tends to lead to more tissue damage, but even that isn't absolute. There are so many variables it's easy to argue any point. Mine is generally correct. This is a common misconception. it's also a common misconception that anybody really gives a sh-it what anybody else is shooting. I couldn't care less what anyone else shoots nor am I advocating any cartridge. In fact I am carrying a .300 of some sort more often than not.
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^^^That's always a solid choice.
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"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Oh, I thought it was 300 Blackout...….grin
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One of my neighbors and shooting partners (Broz) lives on an elk ranch, where they shoot a few dozen elk every year. His pet elk rifle is the 300 WinMag with a 215 Berger at around 2950 fps or so.
He generally gets only one hole up close, massive tissue disruption.
Longer distances, past 500 yards give or take, he starts to see two holes.
Pretty good example of a particular combo that digs deeper at lower impact speeds (ala 308 Win velocities).
Like I mentioned already, bullet design is so different, each type needs to be taken into consideration regarding how it will perform at likely impact velocities based on MV, target distance, etc.
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People who have shot Elk with both cartridges see any difference in killing power?
Thanks, You are not likely to see much difference at close ranges. With top loads for both, the .300WM adds 200-250 yards to what the .308 does in terms of retained velocity and energy. Using Barnes data, since I like TTSX and LRX bullets and based on 7000 ft altitude: .308 W, 168g TTSX, 2877fps MV, ..470 B.C .308 W, 175g LRX, 2728fps MV, ..508 B.C .300 WM, 175g LRX, 3120fps MV, ..508 B.C 2000 fps retained velocity ---------------------------------- 560 yds = .308 W / 168g TTSX 615 yds = .308 W / 175g LRX 825 yds = .300WM / 175g LRX 150fpe retained energy ---------------------------------- 590 yds = .308 W / 168g TTSX 610 yds = .308 W / 175g LRX 855 yds = .300WM / 175g LRX I don't care what bullets or cartridges others use, but it is common sense and simple physics that, in terms of retained energy and velocity, the 308 Win will become marginal long before the .300Win follows suit. Whether that will impact a particular situation depends on the situation.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Put me in the camp of appreciating others experiences and observations. I am reaching the point in life where im looking to add a little variety to my hunting, while recognizing the reality that the learning curve has to be a lot shorter ((!). The fire is a real help in this regard.
Carry what you’re willing to fight with - Mackay Sagebrush
Perfect is the enemy of good enough
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Campfire 'Bwana
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People who have shot Elk with both cartridges see any difference in killing power?
Thanks, I don't care what bullets or cartridges others use, but it is common sense and simple physics that, in terms of retained energy and velocity, the 308 Win will become marginal long before the .300Win follows suit. That's not common sense, it's just a cut & pasted ballistics table. You won't find much common sense or an answer to the OP's question in a ballistics table.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Go back and take a good look at the photo Brad posted. There are 38 different bullets represented in that chart. Designs include cup-and-core, dual core, bonded and monos. They include A-Square Dead Tough; Alaska Kodiak; Barnes X; Bitterroot Bonded; Federal Hi-Shok; Hawk .030” and .035” jacketed; Hornady SP, BTSP and RN InterLock; Nosler Ballistic Tip and Partition; Remington Bronze Point and SP an RN Core-Lokt; Sierra GameKing, MatchKing and Pro-Hunter SP and RN; Speer Grand Slam, Mag-Tip, RN, SP and SPBT; Swift A-Frame; Trophy Bear Claw; Winchester Failsafe, Power-Point and Silvertip; and six others. Don’t bother looking for one that always penetrates further as velocity increases – there aren’t any. Quite often the greatest penetration is at the lowest velocities by a wide margin – by 2x to about 5x. I don’t see a lot of bullet dependency there. As in none. And I’ll stand by my statements: So it doesn't depend on the bullet, unless you consider different calibers and weights, which makes it NOT the same bullet.
Same bullet, velocity rules. But higher velocity does not always mean greater penetration, as has been proven many times.
Max velocity was only 3100fps for starters..
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