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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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On multiple occasions people have complained about comparisons of cartridges using ballistic data, claiming they are boring and/or uninformative. For those complainers, naysayers and whiners, I have a simple question:
Without ballistic information, how do you determine the suitability of a cartridge for your needs?
....................Simple! Prior knowledge, experience and depends on what cartridges one owns....For example. See the four cartridges below that I own? Now do ya think that I would need to consult any ballistic information tables in order to determine what their capabilities are as to satisfying whatever my particular need is?.....NUPE! "Prior knowledge" of what - and how gained? You bought the 28 Nosler perhaps just because you like the name? Never saw ANY ballistic info on it prior to your purchase? Had no idea if it was a fast flat shooter or slower than a 7mm Waters? Nice selection, BTW. I have a Savage action awaiting a decision on a barrel and the 28 Nosler and .375 Ruger are both candidates.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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When I was a young person around 1970 plus or minus, . I'm with you brother
Last edited by Blu_Cs; 05/17/20.
Carry what you’re willing to fight with - Mackay Sagebrush
Perfect is the enemy of good enough
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
On multiple occasions people have complained about comparisons of cartridges using ballistic data, claiming they are boring and/or uninformative. For those complainers, naysayers and whiners, I have a simple question:
Without ballistic information, how do you determine the suitability of a cartridge for your needs?
Wrong question. Lots of people who are choosing between two different cartridges will look at ballistic data, myself included. It's really useful for some purposes.. But evaluating how effective a cartridge will be using only ballistic data is a fool's errand. It's also something that anyone with a computer can look up on their own if they want to. Ballistics data is also boring as hell, unless you're doing your own evaluations, for your own purposes. I'd much rather read (and heed) someone's first-hand experience with a particular cartridge or bullet than read about something I can look up on my own, if I'm interested. So maybe the question should be, are people really interested in my interpretation and comments on information they have at their fingertips? If the answer is "yes," then fire away. Right question as it is exactly what I wanted to ask. I didn’t suggest “using ONLY ballistic data”, I asked how do you evaluate cartridges “WITHOUT ballistic information”. Ballistic info doesn’t tell everything a person needs to know, particularly about what happens after impact, as I stated here: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...8-heading-towards-obscurity#Post14881098 I understand what ballistic calculations do and do not tell us, as do many others. They are quite useful for comparing destructive potential, less so for predicting actual results after impact because so many other factors then come into play. Like you said, though, ballistic info is “really useful for some purposes.” Such as evaluating a the potential of a cartridge for a particular purpose. Or comparing the potential of different cartridges. That is hardly a “fool’s errand”. When I first came to Colorado and decided to purchase my first centerfire with the specific purpose of elk hunting, Dad suggested a .356Win or .375 Win, both of which were being hyped at the time. After comparing the ballistics with a 7mm RM, .300WM and a couple others, the ballistics alone were enough to rule out the .356 Win and .375 Win. I went with the 7mm RM and a 162g bullets. That choice was 90% ballistics and 10% concern about the extra recoil of a .300WM. Turns out the 7mm RM was an excellent choice, my first choice for bullet not so much. So I rectified the bullet choice. We know that two different cartridges launching identical bullets at identical velocities have identical potential. We also know that different cartridges launching similar bullets at similar velocities will have similar potential and that the potentials diverge as the velocities diverge. If you know how a 7mm-08 performs with a 140g AB, you can look at a ballistic table and accurately predict a .280 Rem with the same bullet will a) perform the same with the same impact velocity and b) given a higher MV for the .280 Rem, it will perform the same at a longer range. BTW, I now have a .375 Win. I bought it 19 years after the 7mm RM, after taking another look at the ballistics. It still isn’t a great choice for my type of elk hunting but it IS a fun rifle and cartridge. And I bought it for fun.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Outfitter
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i own plenty different size cartridges killed animals with many of them,but either my 257 Weatherby Mag. or my 264 Win.Mag recoil is light ,accuracy is good close and far, but both these cartridges knock big deer down very well. you would have to shoot a few animals to see what happens when you pull the trigger its like dynamite hit`n that animal with shock wave. when a good 100 gr. bullet goes 3600-3800 fps out of your rifle its very impressive when it hits a animal or as many of us say speed kills.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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On multiple occasions people have complained about comparisons of cartridges using ballistic data, claiming they are boring and/or uninformative. For those complainers, naysayers and whiners, I have a simple question:
Without ballistic information, how do you determine the suitability of a cartridge for your needs?
No using ballistic table data of any kind, whether from calculators, reloading books or manufacturers.
You're trying to engineer killing a deer or an elk. You're way overthinking it.
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Exactly. If you list the things that make or break a successful hunt, choice of cartridge is waaaaay down on the list.
But it sure does lend itself to mental masturbation.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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You're trying to engineer killing a deer or an elk. You're way overthinking it.
No, I’m simply asking a question as to how people evaluate cartridges for a specific purpose or need without using ballistic information. I never mentioned elk or deer or even hunting and they may have nothing to do with a the specific purpose or need in question. I’ll grant there are non-ballistic issues to be considered when buying a rifle, such as availability at the needed price point, the left/right handedness needed, the desired configuration (bolt/lever/single-shot/whatever) and cartridge/component availability, etc. These issues, however, have no bearing on the capability of a cartridge per se. A person doesn’t need to shoot anything or have any prior knowledge of a cartridge or cartridges to determine from ballistic tables that a .375 H&H is a better choice for cape buffalo than a .22 Hornet. An extreme case, admittedly, but it makes the point. Maybe the use is home defense, in which case ballistic tables would clearly show the relative danger of over-penetration. Maybe the purpose is target shooting at long range and wind drift is the primary consideration, in which case ballistic tables can be used to quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. By the way, ballistic tables are not the only way people get ballistic information. That information may come by word of mouth from any number of sources (“Yes, the .30 Whatzit” will kill deer out past 600 yards”). The reliability of such information, of course, may be anything from very good to misleading, questionable or downright wrong.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Exactly. If you list the things that make or break a successful hunt, choice of cartridge is waaaaay down on the list.
But it sure does lend itself to mental masturbation. My question was not about choosing a hunting cartridge but rather about choosing a cartridge to fit a specific need. Not surprised that you missed that entirely.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,648
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
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You're trying to engineer killing a deer or an elk. You're way overthinking it.
No, I’m simply asking a question as to how people evaluate cartridges for a specific purpose or need without using ballistic information. I never mentioned elk or deer or even hunting and they may have nothing to do with a the specific purpose or need in question. I’ll grant there are non-ballistic issues to be considered when buying a rifle, such as availability at the needed price point, the left/right handedness needed, the desired configuration (bolt/lever/single-shot/whatever) and cartridge/component availability, etc. These issues, however, have no bearing on the capability of a cartridge per se. A person doesn’t need to shoot anything or have any prior knowledge of a cartridge or cartridges to determine from ballistic tables that a .375 H&H is a better choice for cape buffalo than a .22 Hornet. An extreme case, admittedly, but it makes the point. Maybe the use is home defense, in which case ballistic tables would clearly show the relative danger of over-penetration. Maybe the purpose is target shooting at long range and wind drift is the primary consideration, in which case ballistic tables can be used to quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. By the way, ballistic tables are not the only way people get ballistic information. That information may come by word of mouth from any number of sources (“Yes, the .30 Whatzit” will kill deer out past 600 yards”). The reliability of such information, of course, may be anything from very good to misleading, questionable or downright wrong. How do you analyze buying toilet paper at the store prior to purchase?
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817 |
On multiple occasions people have complained about comparisons of cartridges using ballistic data, claiming they are boring and/or uninformative. For those complainers, naysayers and whiners, I have a simple question:
Without ballistic information, how do you determine the suitability of a cartridge for your needs?
....................Simple! Prior knowledge, experience and depends on what cartridges one owns....For example. See the four cartridges below that I own? Now do ya think that I would need to consult any ballistic information tables in order to determine what their capabilities are as to satisfying whatever my particular need is?.....NUPE! "Prior knowledge" of what - and how gained? You bought the 28 Nosler perhaps just because you like the name? Never saw ANY ballistic info on it prior to your purchase? Had no idea if it was a fast flat shooter or slower than a 7mm Waters? Nice selection, BTW. I have a Savage action awaiting a decision on a barrel and the 28 Nosler and .375 Ruger are both candidates. ..........How about doing some reading (like only 5 seconds) without looking at or pondering over ballistic tables??.... After the 28 Nosler was intro'd, all I did was look on the Nosler site..... Well well!!....3125-50 fps using a 175 grainer. That was all I needed to see before making my purchase of a 28 Nosler. Already had common knowledge of 7mm BCs. Did not need to compare the 28 Nosler to any other 7mm round including the Remington, Waters or Weatherby because it was not necessary, nor necessary to consult any ballistic tables.....Same holds true for my 300 WSM, 375 Ruger and (da beast) 338-378 Bee........
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Many of us have been reloading, hunting, shooting, and craving rifles for 40+ years. We have read/learned ballistic coefficients/sectional densities/ft pounds,wind drift, drop, MOA. The only really big advancement in my 40yrs seems to me is twist rate. Most of us probably already have enough ballistic knowledge to not have to consult much of anything to determine whether a particular cartridge is viable. In the end I guess it is necessary to know some data (even from trial and error experience). In the end it is just for fun.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Experience, after over 50 years in the field and working with over 100 cartridges, my experience. 50 years ago, the experience of those I knew and trusted. It ain't rocket science.
NRA Benefactor 2008
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John 14-6
There is no right way to do a wrong thing
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,272 |
First-hand experience. Don't pay much attention to the written word.. I see for myself. If it feels good, shoots good, looks good, and does the right amount of damage to my target of choice, it gets used.
I do like to shoot so I'll shoot most anything for the hellofit...just get get my first impression. That and if the ammo box has a deer head on it for deer hunting rifles.
Thanks! g
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
GeoW, The "Unwoke" ...Let's go Brandon!
"A Well Regulated Militia" Life Member
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,078 Likes: 5 |
Exactly. If you list the things that make or break a successful hunt, choice of cartridge is waaaaay down on the list.
But it sure does lend itself to mental masturbation. My question was not about choosing a hunting cartridge but rather about choosing a cartridge to fit a specific need. Not surprised that you missed that entirely. This is the hunting rifles forum. "Not surprised you missed that entirely." Reading the fine print on the ballistics charts must be affecting your eyesight. It's either that or the mental masturbation. I heard it'll make you go blind.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,078 Likes: 5 |
You're trying to engineer killing a deer or an elk. You're way overthinking it.
No, I’m simply asking a question as to how people evaluate cartridges for a specific purpose or need without using ballistic information. I never mentioned elk or deer or even hunting and they may have nothing to do with a the specific purpose or need in question. I’ll grant there are non-ballistic issues to be considered when buying a rifle, such as availability at the needed price point, the left/right handedness needed, the desired configuration (bolt/lever/single-shot/whatever) and cartridge/component availability, etc. These issues, however, have no bearing on the capability of a cartridge per se. A person doesn’t need to shoot anything or have any prior knowledge of a cartridge or cartridges to determine from ballistic tables that a .375 H&H is a better choice for cape buffalo than a .22 Hornet. An extreme case, admittedly, but it makes the point. Maybe the use is home defense, in which case ballistic tables would clearly show the relative danger of over-penetration. Maybe the purpose is target shooting at long range and wind drift is the primary consideration, in which case ballistic tables can be used to quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. By the way, ballistic tables are not the only way people get ballistic information. That information may come by word of mouth from any number of sources (“Yes, the .30 Whatzit” will kill deer out past 600 yards”). The reliability of such information, of course, may be anything from very good to misleading, questionable or downright wrong. How do you analyze buying toilet paper at the store prior to purchase? Don't make light of it Greg. Lot's of different cartridges will do just fine for elk and deer, but if you bring the wrong toilet paper.......
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 218 |
On multiple occasions people have complained about comparisons of cartridges using ballistic data, claiming they are boring and/or uninformative. For those complainers, naysayers and whiners, I have a simple question:
Without ballistic information, how do you determine the suitability of a cartridge for your needs?
I just built a 30BR VFS rifle. Why? They win matches
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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
Joined: Apr 2011
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Place a 257 Weatherby cartridge next to a 264 magnum cartridge i have both these cartridges and both are true buck killers at long distances too ! Yep. Both are great, the 7 mag and 270 Weatherby are right there with them.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Why are so many "good" people leaving here? Threads like this.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
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This thread is epic Why are so many "good" people leaving here? Threads like this. That's right. Call out threads are ridiculous, aren't they?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,253 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It seems like a very simple process to me, as noted by GregW and smokepole. If I'm going Nilgai hunting for example (never have) I'll find someone who's experienced in Nilgai hunting, ask some questions, problem solved. I won't spend hours and hours wasting time with ballistic tables I assure you.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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