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Joined: Aug 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
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I’ve been reloading for close to 40 yrs. and loading for numerous 223’s over the years. But none were semi-autos or AR’s. Weelll, I just got an AR. I understand that the basics are the same, but my question concerns crimping. I’ve talked to a couple of folks who reload for AR’s......one says he never crimps but maintains a tight bullet to neck fit. The other uses bullets that allow him to roll crimp into the cannelure. I thought maybe some of you guys might have some insite as to how I should approach crimping. Roll crimp, taper crimp, or no crimp? I also bought a few PMags which all seem to measure 2.25 inside max so how short is my max OAL to feed well in plastic magazines? Thanks in advance for your help.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Aug 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
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No crimp. 2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3"
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,169 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,169 Likes: 14 |
I’ve been reloading for close to 40 yrs. and loading for numerous 223’s over the years. But none were semi-autos or AR’s. Weelll, I just got an AR. I understand that the basics are the same, but my question concerns crimping. I’ve talked to a couple of folks who reload for AR’s......one says he never crimps but maintains a tight bullet to neck fit. The other uses bullets that allow him to roll crimp into the cannelure. I thought maybe some of you guys might have some insite as to how I should approach crimping. Roll crimp, taper crimp, or no crimp? I also bought a few PMags which all seem to measure 2.25 inside max so how short is my max OAL to feed well in plastic magazines? Thanks in advance for you help. I set my seater to put a slight crimp on the bullet. That also helps with reducing TIR. Something a lot of guys don't understand. A Pmag is generally 2.260" on the inside. So most of us run our OAL to somewhere around 2.250-2.255" to allow for reliable feeding and loading of the mags.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
No crimp. 2.25, or 2.255 oal. If you use metal ASC mags you can go to 2.3" Same here. This is pretty much the standard.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Apr 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
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just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073 Likes: 4 |
just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv I suspect you had either a runout or neck tension problem prior to crimping.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Apr 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
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most likely tension. i have that problem alot
the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,248 Likes: 4 |
I use the crimp option on an RCBS AR15 seater die. It is a taper crimp that has the roll crimp at the end of a longer taper just incase your case length is not consistant. (Supposedly) It seems to work better with fewer crushed shoulders than a standard die with a roll crimp. But, to be consistent, you need to get your cases as close to the same lenght as you can. I have also used a Lee crimp die and that works well as long as you are not power crimping them. They are nice when your cases are not consistently the same lenght.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Aug 2015
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2015
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just for s&g's i bought one of the Lee factory crimp dies to try out. done correctly it took 3/4 inch off my groups. ymmv My mileage varied. My results were directly opposite.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,227 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,227 Likes: 3 |
No crimp. Also bump the shoulders a bit more than you would with a bolt rifle, 0.003 is good.
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,387
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,387 |
No crimp.
Folks that shoot a tighter group with a crimp VS. no crimp, most likely have neck tension variance. By crimping, it helps to equalize the round to round release tension. Annealing regularly can help equalize release tension. Keeping cases sorted by brand and number of times reloaded can also help.
In training to be an obedient master to my two labs
Shooting, fishing and hunting
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 646 |
"I set my seater to put a slight crimp on the bullet. That also helps with reducing TIR. Something a lot of guys don't understand. A Pmag is generally 2.260" on the inside. So most of us run our OAL to somewhere around 2.250-2.255" to allow for reliable feeding and loading of the mags." [/quote]
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Thanks
Last edited by Kota; 06/10/20.
Do not pray for an easier life, Pray to be stronger men
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,747 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,747 Likes: 2 |
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout. No. Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,673
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,673 |
Small base dies are rarely needed and usually counterproductive. AR chambers are usually rather loose.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,169 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,169 Likes: 14 |
What is TIR? Also, is it required that you use "small base" dies for AR reloads?
Total Indicator Runout. No. Anything to the right of the 100ths place in overall length is irrelevant. Yes sir. Total indicatior reading, but for run-out. I like straight ammo. It tends to shoot better than crooked chidt. Im running small base dies for my CLE chambers. Get good accuracy and good enough longevity out of my brass. Not that im too concerned about it. Brass is free around here.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
I think a Lee factory crimp die is a good tool to use on ammo that's going to be fired in an auto loading rifle.
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Joined: Jan 2017
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 8,929 Likes: 5 |
One of the first things I did to insure reliability of the ammo I handload was to buy a Dillon case gauge. My brass has been shot thru many different chambers but after it is resized now and it gauges I know it will chamber and lock up . If a case fails to gauge the first time I will try to resize it again if it then gauges fine , if it don't it goes in the recycle bucket I won't even save it for the bolt guns. Consistancy when loading for AR's counts alot to insure reliability. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
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I have never crimped ammo for my AR's and never had a problem, also have never needed small-base dies.
I have to express some curiosity as to how roll crimping can reduce total indicated runout??
Mathew 22: 37-39
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Thanks guys for the feedback. I think I’ll go with “no crimp”. If I have a problem, I’ll try the factory crimp die then. Looks like an OAL of 2.25” or less should be good to go. Will probably go 2.24” and see how that works. Not trying for benchrest accuracy, just something that works well if they start coming over the wall, so to speak! Thanks again.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 52
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 52 |
I'm with Bristoe on this one.
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