There are many things in the Universe beyond our control. Here's a simple example: A single gamma ray burst too close to the earth and we are DONE, and there's nothing all of humanity could do about it.
They could pray to their god(s) to prevent such a catastrophe in the first place . . .
Originally Posted by johnn
Why would a loving god condemn a man of low intelligence because he didnt have faith?
Because modern Christianity is about control and power.
Note to johnn:
Faith is not a matter intellect, but a matter of “the heart.” One does not have to be “intelligent” to develop a relationship with Jesus. I personally know some very fine Christian men that would not be thought of as “intelligent.” They are however, thought to be “wise.”
Further, I have heard some say that a man who thinks himself to be “smart” is at a disadvantage when it come to salvation as his pride and ego get in the way. Maybe one would rather be dumb and humble than smart and prideful.
Quite a few teachings on this in the Bible.
Btw.... one does not have to understand how the earth was formed, created or what it is destined for to be saved. It’s a heart matter.... honest seeking, repentant, placing oneself before Jesus.... and asking.
See justified tax collector or thief on the cross.
What about the Faith of the Muslims, or Hindus, or Shinto's, Buddhist, or Ásatruar. If Faith is a pathway to truth, who can you claim yours is true and theirs is not. Since these faiths are mutually exclusive, how do you tell which one is true?
Legit question. Examine the evidence available to you and then honestly seek an answer from God. But, check that answer with Scipture.... if it squares, continue on..... if it does not square, it is false and you may be hearing a satanic being or even an echo of your own mind.
For me, it Takes two witnesses..... One, internal from the Spirit and a confirming one from the Bible.
Oh and btw..... I know all about hearing an echo of my own desire. Paid the price for it as well.
Why the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedas, or Tripitaka?
Well, we have been over this before. Complex subject I suppose, but this is the ‘Fire and twitter commo rules seem to apply. You may want to do an internet search of how to find Jesus..... or encountering God. It would be worthwhile as there are key verses that add depth to my words.
To start with, it seems to me that God deals with us as individuals. Honest seekers get their own “individual pathway” to God......My experience will not be your experience and vice versa. And while our relative experiences and timetables may be different, there does seem to a commonality of experience. Makes sense as we are all different from one another but God,is still God as he presents Himself to us.
So, here are some thoughts....God will be found by the honest seeker. There will be a call to the inner man and a way of knowing. I have ... at times...been “unsettled” in my soul and later realized God was nudging, warning, encouraging a specific action etc God speaking to me in my spirit if you will. It has been referred to it as the “inner man.” As, I said previously, some care must be taken to be sure it is God doing the talking. Seeking God and recognizing His reply seems simple, but often we let our own issues, sin and desire get in the way and our “spiritual ears” don’t hear. But, God is patient and He loves us and so will deal with us according to His love and keeping our weaknesses in mind. Thank God for that!
Keys are honest seeking....,ask God to reveal Himself.... and ardent listening. Then an honest response to God.
But what about the other religions? They are false and may lead men astray. The honest seeker will recognize their emptiness.
One great difference is it seems to be that all other religions teach one how to be more pleasing to God, or to this or do that so that one will found worthy. Short version.... salvation is dependent upon the individual working to become “good enough” for God.....you work to make yourself worthy of entering into some deity’s presence or achieve some higher level.
Christianity is completely different. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation, it is a gift.... from God to you. Seek, listen with the ears of the inner man....see yourself honestly as you stand before God... humble yourself, ask and thank Him. Christianity is unique in this. God, by His blood and sacrifice.... makes you holy.
Now there will be some that say “well, you had to ask for salvation and forgiveness, so isn’t that the same as working for one’s acceptance from god?” The answer is no it is not. God offers a gift, you just reach out and accept it. Recognize God for who He is and see yourself as you really are.
Remember, this is not a mental exercise.... it is not an “intellectual” endeavor. The Pharisees were “....wise in their own eyes....”. They were haughty, proud and self righteous. Not honest seekers. Likely did not turn out well for those that cherished those ideas about themselves.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
So you asked the question, and you were not really interested in the answer.
Good to know.
You probably won't listen but for those who care to, there's a more nuanced difference between proof and evidence.
"Proof", is sufficient evidence or a sufficient argument to establish the truth of a proposition
Where evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Evidence can be of different qualities, and depending on the nature you of the question you may have different burdens of proof. Poor evidence may not meet a high burden of proof, so as is often the case with English, words with similar usages are often not really the same.
Of course the overall question in this thread revolves around the existence of a god(s), which is an extraordinary claim, so, in order to meet it's burden of proof the claimant would need to provide extraordinary evidence. I have yet to see anyone present good evidence, let a lone extraordinary evidence for any theistic claims.
Antolopy,
I've got to be honest, after about the third paragraph I lost interest. One could hash each others definitions out to death if you chose to. Everyone chooses to copy and paste the one that more closely entaintains their own argument, myself included. In your own words, "I have yet to see anyone present good evidence, let a lone extraordinary evidence" of your greater presence than man you mentioned earlier either.
There are many things in the Universe beyond our control. Here's a simple example: A single gamma ray burst too close to the earth and we are DONE, and there's nothing all of humanity could do about it.
They could pray to their god(s) to prevent such a catastrophe in the first place . . .
Originally Posted by johnn
Why would a loving god condemn a man of low intelligence because he didnt have faith?
Because modern Christianity is about control and power.
Note to johnn:
Faith is not a matter intellect, but a matter of “the heart.” One does not have to be “intelligent” to develop a relationship with Jesus. I personally know some very fine Christian men that would not be thought of as “intelligent.” They are however, thought to be “wise.”
Further, I have heard some say that a man who thinks himself to be “smart” is at a disadvantage when it come to salvation as his pride and ego get in the way. Maybe one would rather be dumb and humble than smart and prideful.
Quite a few teachings on this in the Bible.
Btw.... one does not have to understand how the earth was formed, created or what it is destined for to be saved. It’s a heart matter.... honest seeking, repentant, placing oneself before Jesus.... and asking.
See justified tax collector or thief on the cross.
Very well said, I do know of which you speak..... However I have had a hard time associating that I have rudimentary explored.... My personal experience with the bible is fraught with frustration trying to interpret, so therefore I distrust it what was written.... And I do not trust most organized religion. Some much wrong has been committed under the guise of religion that it is suspect. Self exam is my path.... And I need correction frequently..... there is something more than just the nerve endings in our asses that we seek to satisfy. As humans are a greedy selfish lot. And anyone that buys into a guaranteed afterlife is kidding themselves and a fakir. Is the promise of a afterlife the only thing that establishes one morals....?
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
There are many things in the Universe beyond our control. Here's a simple example: A single gamma ray burst too close to the earth and we are DONE, and there's nothing all of humanity could do about it.
They could pray to their god(s) to prevent such a catastrophe in the first place . . .
Originally Posted by johnn
Why would a loving god condemn a man of low intelligence because he didnt have faith?
Because modern Christianity is about control and power.
Note to johnn:
Faith is not a matter intellect, but a matter of “the heart.” One does not have to be “intelligent” to develop a relationship with Jesus. I personally know some very fine Christian men that would not be thought of as “intelligent.” They are however, thought to be “wise.”
Further, I have heard some say that a man who thinks himself to be “smart” is at a disadvantage when it come to salvation as his pride and ego get in the way. Maybe one would rather be dumb and humble than smart and prideful.
Quite a few teachings on this in the Bible.
Btw.... one does not have to understand how the earth was formed, created or what it is destined for to be saved. It’s a heart matter.... honest seeking, repentant, placing oneself before Jesus.... and asking.
See justified tax collector or thief on the cross.
What about the Faith of the Muslims, or Hindus, or Shinto's, Buddhist, or Ásatruar. If Faith is a pathway to truth, who can you claim yours is true and theirs is not. Since these faiths are mutually exclusive, how do you tell which one is true?
Legit question. Examine the evidence available to you and then honestly seek an answer from God. But, check that answer with Scipture.... if it squares, continue on..... if it does not square, it is false and you may be hearing a satanic being or even an echo of your own mind.
For me, it Takes two witnesses..... One, internal from the Spirit and a confirming one from the Bible.
Oh and btw..... I know all about hearing an echo of my own desire. Paid the price for it as well.
Why the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedas, or Tripitaka?
Well, we have been over this before. Complex subject I suppose, but this is the ‘Fire and twitter commo rules seem to apply. You may want to do an internet search of how to find Jesus..... or encountering God. It would be worthwhile as there are key verses that add depth to my words.
To start with, it seems to me that God deals with us as individuals. Honest seekers get their own “individual pathway” to God......My experience will not be your experience and vice versa. And while our relative experiences and timetables may be different, there does seem to a commonality of experience. Makes sense as we are all different from one another but God,is still God as he presents Himself to us.
So, here are some thoughts....God will be found by the honest seeker. There will be a call to the inner man and a way of knowing. I have ... at times...been “unsettled” in my soul and later realized God was nudging, warning, encouraging a specific action etc God speaking to me in my spirit if you will. It has been referred to it as the “inner man.” As, I said previously, some care must be taken to be sure it is God doing the talking. Seeking God and recognizing His reply seems simple, but often we let our own issues, sin and desire get in the way and our “spiritual ears” don’t hear. But, God is patient and He loves us and so will deal with us according to His love and keeping our weaknesses in mind. Thank God for that!
Keys are honest seeking....,ask God to reveal Himself.... and ardent listening. Then an honest response to God.
But what about the other religions? They are false and may lead men astray. The honest seeker will recognize their emptiness.
One great difference is it seems to be that all other religions teach one how to be more pleasing to God, or to this or do that so that one will found worthy. Short version.... salvation is dependent upon the individual working to become “good enough” for God.....you work to make yourself worthy of entering into some deity’s presence or achieve some higher level.
Christianity is completely different. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation, it is a gift.... from God to you. Seek, listen with the ears of the inner man....see yourself honestly as you stand before God... humble yourself, ask and thank Him. Christianity is unique in this. God, by His blood and sacrifice.... makes you holy.
Now there will be some that say “well, you had to ask for salvation and forgiveness, so isn’t that the same as working for one’s acceptance from god?” The answer is no it is not. God offers a gift, you just reach out and accept it. Recognize God for who He is and see yourself as you really are.
Remember, this is not a mental exercise.... it is not an “intellectual” endeavor. The Pharisees were “....wise in their own eyes....”. They were haughty, proud and self righteous. Not honest seekers. Likely did not turn out well for those that cherished those ideas about themselves.
Got the exact same answer from a Muslim once. You 100% sure you got the right religion? We all make mistakes don't we?
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
A thought about the religions. I read a book by an Egyptian who was second in a class of 6,000 in the Cairo University. He was an Imam by the time he was twenty-five. He continued his studies an earned a doctorate in World Religions. I doubt if many, maybe none, on this sight have more education than him in this field. When the dust settled he became an ardent follower of Jesus Christ!
As to working for the gift of God's Son.... Some of us were given cars when we turned sixteen. If we wished to appropriate the car we had to receive the keys, insert them into the ignition, twist the ignition switch, put it into gear and give it some throttle to go. How much were we doing to earn the gift?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
And why would I answer my questions put to others ? 🤔..
You honestly don't know do you?
It's a concept called "Integrity"
I dont believe that me answering questions I put to other people is a show of integrity.
Question for You,
Do you have any christian beliefs that you believe to be true rather than Myth?
You don't want to answer that... So you would prefer I answer it on your behalf?
I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic Family. I went to a Catholic school and church every Sunday. As a kid, I believed what I was told to believe. As I got older, I didn't remember there being a Pope when Jesus walked the Earth. I began to doubt the policy (politics) of the church as "gospel" and started to gravitate to a sense of treating others as I would want to be treated and listening to that little voice in the back of my mind as my path of guidance to true parity with myself and others. I harbor no ill content to those who feel they need to adhere to a more traditional faith and strict church doctrine, in fact I admire them for their ability to adhere to such a structured way of faith in their lives. I tend to more closely associate my religious beliefs the same way Renegade50 so eloquently stated earlier in this post. Sometimes I wonder how a Loving God would allow a child to be strictin in some life changing illness and at other times I marvel at the sight of a mother's loving embrace of her child and know this had to be more than mere pond scum that got us here. I question these things nearly on a daily pattern. I would not expect a fool such as yourself to answer these questions for me. I would only ask you to answer the same question now that I am asking of you that you just asked of me and I answered.
How is that part about treating others as you want to be treated working out for you...?
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
As for the existence of life beyond our planet, I consider it likely. We know it happened at least once, it's able to adapt to a surprising range of environments, and, excluding helium which is inert, we are made up of the most common elements in the universe one for one, in order of abundance.
Considering there's around 200 billion starts in the Milky way, and 200 galaxies just in the visible universe, and some number of planets and moons around each of those stars, that's a lot of dice to roll continuously over the billions of years since what we call the Big Bang (which was neither big, nor a bang). So do I think life outside our solar system is likely, yes. But do I know, no, I don't, and I'm ok with that. If there is life outside our solar system, we can build models of what, under certain circumstances, it might be likely to be like, but again, that's not the same thing as knowing.
Could there be life outside the solar system that's at the level of moss or bacteria. Yep, sure could be, or it could be highly advanced, living on the surface of a Dysan Sphere, or the moss could be the Dysan sphere, and more then we could possibly imagine in between these possibilities. I don't know. We don't know, and considering what we currently understand regarding the universal limit of causality, we may never know.
There's much we don't know, and I'm ok with accepting there are limits to our current knowledge. IME that's a common thematic difference between non-believers, and the hard core fundamentalist. Many fundamentalist have such a need to know they would rather blindly accept a fairly tale them accept the level of uncertainly and now knowing that comes with living in a world with scientific discovery.
Very well stated. And very close to my own conclusions. In the billions of years since the big bang, billions of life filled planets could have come and gone, and billions more will very likely come and go after humans have gone extinct. And any number of those planets might have or maybe will generate "intelligent life". Some of that intelligent life might gain scientific knowledge enough that we could well be convinced they are gods, just as the ancient cave peoples of ten thousand years ago would believe we are gods due to our technological tricks.
I know not what greater forces than man might exist in the Universe. But due the insurmountable reaches of space and TIME in our Universe, I firmly believe we shall never meet them.
Beyond what I believe, I know for a fact! There is no scribe in the sky recording MY every act and thought. There is nothing nor anyone who cares for what happens when my EEG goes flat. I know there is absolutely no existence after brain activity stops. Our "soul" is the sum of electrical impulses, chemistry, genetics, and learning. From dust we arise, and surely to dust shall we return.
And I am comfortable with this knowledge. I am experiencing heaven right here and now. 40 hour weeks, all the food I can eat, a warm dry bed, a wonderful wife to share my bed, a safe full of guns, a yard full of kids and grandkids, a nice boat in the yard, full of fishing poles and tackle, mountains nearby with deer and elk, lakes nearby full of fish. The assurance of a well funded retirement just around the corner.
What more could a man dream of?
I need no promise of Paradise, nor threat of Hell to force morality upon me. I know right from wrong. I know what actions would bring harm and unhappiness to my loved ones or the community.
If promises and threats is what it takes to keep you on the "Straight and Narrow". So be it. You have my blessing. Just don't expect that every man has the same needs as you, and I will not expect that you should live without your mythology.
That is a mouthful of how it is and how man should think..... !
For those without thumbs, it's s Garden fookin Island, not Hawaii
There are many things in the Universe beyond our control. Here's a simple example: A single gamma ray burst too close to the earth and we are DONE, and there's nothing all of humanity could do about it.
They could pray to their god(s) to prevent such a catastrophe in the first place . . .
Originally Posted by johnn
Why would a loving god condemn a man of low intelligence because he didnt have faith?
Because modern Christianity is about control and power.
Note to johnn:
Faith is not a matter intellect, but a matter of “the heart.” One does not have to be “intelligent” to develop a relationship with Jesus. I personally know some very fine Christian men that would not be thought of as “intelligent.” They are however, thought to be “wise.”
Further, I have heard some say that a man who thinks himself to be “smart” is at a disadvantage when it come to salvation as his pride and ego get in the way. Maybe one would rather be dumb and humble than smart and prideful.
Quite a few teachings on this in the Bible.
Btw.... one does not have to understand how the earth was formed, created or what it is destined for to be saved. It’s a heart matter.... honest seeking, repentant, placing oneself before Jesus.... and asking.
See justified tax collector or thief on the cross.
What about the Faith of the Muslims, or Hindus, or Shinto's, Buddhist, or Ásatruar. If Faith is a pathway to truth, who can you claim yours is true and theirs is not. Since these faiths are mutually exclusive, how do you tell which one is true?
Legit question. Examine the evidence available to you and then honestly seek an answer from God. But, check that answer with Scipture.... if it squares, continue on..... if it does not square, it is false and you may be hearing a satanic being or even an echo of your own mind.
For me, it Takes two witnesses..... One, internal from the Spirit and a confirming one from the Bible.
Oh and btw..... I know all about hearing an echo of my own desire. Paid the price for it as well.
Why the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedas, or Tripitaka?
Well, we have been over this before. Complex subject I suppose, but this is the ‘Fire and twitter commo rules seem to apply. You may want to do an internet search of how to find Jesus..... or encountering God. It would be worthwhile as there are key verses that add depth to my words.
To start with, it seems to me that God deals with us as individuals. Honest seekers get their own “individual pathway” to God......My experience will not be your experience and vice versa. And while our relative experiences and timetables may be different, there does seem to a commonality of experience. Makes sense as we are all different from one another but God,is still God as he presents Himself to us.
So, here are some thoughts....God will be found by the honest seeker. There will be a call to the inner man and a way of knowing. I have ... at times...been “unsettled” in my soul and later realized God was nudging, warning, encouraging a specific action etc God speaking to me in my spirit if you will. It has been referred to it as the “inner man.” As, I said previously, some care must be taken to be sure it is God doing the talking. Seeking God and recognizing His reply seems simple, but often we let our own issues, sin and desire get in the way and our “spiritual ears” don’t hear. But, God is patient and He loves us and so will deal with us according to His love and keeping our weaknesses in mind. Thank God for that!
Keys are honest seeking....,ask God to reveal Himself.... and ardent listening. Then an honest response to God.
But what about the other religions? They are false and may lead men astray. The honest seeker will recognize their emptiness.
One great difference is it seems to be that all other religions teach one how to be more pleasing to God, or to this or do that so that one will found worthy. Short version.... salvation is dependent upon the individual working to become “good enough” for God.....you work to make yourself worthy of entering into some deity’s presence or achieve some higher level.
Christianity is completely different. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation, it is a gift.... from God to you. Seek, listen with the ears of the inner man....see yourself honestly as you stand before God... humble yourself, ask and thank Him. Christianity is unique in this. God, by His blood and sacrifice.... makes you holy.
Now there will be some that say “well, you had to ask for salvation and forgiveness, so isn’t that the same as working for one’s acceptance from god?” The answer is no it is not. God offers a gift, you just reach out and accept it. Recognize God for who He is and see yourself as you really are.
Remember, this is not a mental exercise.... it is not an “intellectual” endeavor. The Pharisees were “....wise in their own eyes....”. They were haughty, proud and self righteous. Not honest seekers. Likely did not turn out well for those that cherished those ideas about themselves.
Got the exact same answer from a Muslim once. You 100% sure you got the right religion? We all make mistakes don't we?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
And why would I answer my questions put to others ? 🤔..
You honestly don't know do you?
It's a concept called "Integrity"
I dont believe that me answering questions I put to other people is a show of integrity.
Question for You,
Do you have any christian beliefs that you believe to be true rather than Myth?
You don't want to answer that... So you would prefer I answer it on your behalf?
I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic Family. I went to a Catholic school and church every Sunday. As a kid, I believed what I was told to believe. As I got older, I didn't remember there being a Pope when Jesus walked the Earth. I began to doubt the policy (politics) of the church as "gospel" and started to gravitate to a sense of treating others as I would want to be treated and listening to that little voice in the back of my mind as my path of guidance to true parity with myself and others. I harbor no ill content to those who feel they need to adhere to a more traditional faith and strict church doctrine, in fact I admire them for their ability to adhere to such a structured way of faith in their lives. I tend to more closely associate my religious beliefs the same way Renegade50 so eloquently stated earlier in this post. Sometimes I wonder how a Loving God would allow a child to be strictin in some life changing illness and at other times I marvel at the sight of a mother's loving embrace of her child and know this had to be more than mere pond scum that got us here. I question these things nearly on a daily pattern. I would not expect a fool such as yourself to answer these questions for me. I would only ask you to answer the same question now that I am asking of you that you just asked of me and I answered.
How is that part about treating others as you want to be treated working out for you...?
