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The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.''
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and [b]under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them. Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible. Oh, so they are not really Scotsmen because you say they are not. Ok, got it. glad I could be of assistance.
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Savage_Hunter, thanks for posting your response to my question. I’m often curious about the opinions that some others have regarding this matter. Heal up.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Voodoo is a religion, and includes may Catholic elements, more than you probably imagine.
As for claiming to be religion, but not really being so, .....you should look in the mirror. You got that right. Jesus' (Yeshua's) teachings which weren't new ideas at all have had so much of other belief systems stitched onto them it resembles a religious Frankenstein monster. Interesting comment. Why would you say that Jesus’ teachings were not new ideas? I have an opinion on this, but I would like to hear your viewpoint. Also.... you went on to say that Jesus’ teachings had “other belief systems” stitched on to them. I am wondering about that. Can you elaborate? Thanks, I am really busy today but I'll give you a quick answer and more later. Jesus also called Yeshua and John the Baptist taught salvation through repentance which is the theme attached to salvation from front to back Genesis to Revelation. Read it and you cannot escape that Paul contradicted Jesus. Yes he did. The Roman version of Christianity attached all kinds of Paganism to their church and most protestants retained it. Start with Easter, Christmas, infant baptism, and I could go on and on. Just read Jesus' message that survived the editing and you will understand that most Christianity does not follow him and in fact would probably kill him again if he were to come back and tell them the truth as he did to the Jewish leaders of his day. The only place for an honest man is a grave in most places in this world. I'm sorry, but you missed a verse that totally disproves your point. Paul did indeed also preach repentance. Passionately. He (Paul) preached that God "but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30). You can't place your faith in Christ until you have repented....... Repentance is a change of the mind, heart, and will. 1. you change your mind when you believe the gospel and that Jesus is the Christ, God in the flesh and that He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died on the cross for our sins, and rose from the grave. 2. you change your heart when you choose to trust Him as your Savior. 3. you change your will when you choose to obey Him as Lord. If you haven't had that change, you cannot believe in Him.
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Campfire Outfitter
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4. I have a Master of Divinity Degree, so I don't have to depend on the KJV Bible...
.. they mostly translated from Latin, which would make it a translation from a translation instead of mostly relying on the original Aramaic, Koine Greek, and Hebrew. They also translated often from classical Greek instead of Koine quite a few times. ...
Mostly from Latin? My understanding of AKJV is NT was translated from Greek, OT was translated from Hebrew and Aramaic, the Apocrypha translated from the Greek and Latin. ...
And, they inserted names of fairytale animals that never existed because they did not understand the Greek word for the animal
in the Hebrew.
Ive had Christians argue blue in the face that unicorns are real because their version of Bible uses that term.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Depends on how you interpret the evidence, I would think. Lots of evidence on Evolution to interpret...study with open eyes and a critical mind. Not so much on Creation. Closed minds reading an open book. Hmmm. So, even if you start from the premise that God was able to create the world, he couldn't have created it in a way that appeared to have evolved? I choose not to underestimate Him. More likely Evolution is how humans understand how God created this world we live in. “The governor of Texas, who, when asked if the Bible should also be taught in Spanish, replied that ‘if English was good enough for Jesus, then it’s good enough for me’.” ― Christopher Hitchens good point. Progressive theistic creation of species. with each creation day lasting millions and millions of years, God would have a chance to create many life forms that came and went or remained. This is actually what I feel is the answer. I'm certainly not a macroevolutionist or a young-earther.
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4. I have a Master of Divinity Degree, so I don't have to depend on the KJV Bible...
.. they mostly translated from Latin, which would make it a translation from a translation instead of mostly relying on the original Aramaic, Koine Greek, and Hebrew. They also translated often from classical Greek instead of Koine quite a few times. ...
Mostly from Latin? My understanding of AKJV is NT was translated from Greek, OT was translated from Hebrew and Aramaic, the Apocrypha translated from the Greek and Latin. ...
And, they inserted names of fairytale animals that never existed because they did not understand the Greek word for the animal
in the Hebrew.
Ive had Christians argue blue in the face that unicorns are real because their version of Bible uses that term. 1. "Mostly" may be a little strong, but They relied heavily on Latin, moreso than New American Standard. NAS is the most accurate word for word translation. 2. The understanding of Koine greek is light-years better 300 years after the KJV was put into translation. There are tons more documents to get a better understanding of word meanings in the 19th and 20th Century than in the 1600s. 3. Unicorn meant unicorn to the KJV writers. and there is no such thing. There are other errors, but I'd just make a lot of folks angry with me and call me a heretic.
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Pastor Jimmy Evans figures from scripture saying that within the generation that Israel regained their homeland the Lord would return again. Now, as far as I can determine, from scripture, a generation is 70 to 80 years. Jimmy Evans has figured the date of Wormwood, the huge asteroid revealed in Revelation those left behind in the tribulation will have to deal with, to be Friday April 13, 2029 iirc.That will occur, evidently, after or near the end of tribulation, then the millenium of Christs rule will begin, with Satan and his minions in the dungeon in chains, and when the earth will be renewed.
Now, so Jimmy subtracts 7 years of tribulation from the May 13, 2029 and that puts Christs return about May 2022.
1 Thes 5:9-11 God has not appointed us to wrath, meaning the believers will not face the tribulation. The tribulation is Gods Wrath. The age of grace will have the door closed and then begins Gods wrath, the tribulation.
Joel 3 That would be cool. I wish we knew for sure, because I need to have thumb joint replacement surgery on my right thumb, I had my left one done in May and it's doing nicely. (It is the surgery I had in June that is wonky). I would not want to have that surgery done if Jesus is coming back next year because it'd be needless suffering with no payoff. I could plainly see how this could easily happen if the democrats win this year. Well, as you know, smart asses love to say that even Jesus said He doesnt know when, before dropping it at that, forgetting to say He was referring to the day and hour and forgetting that He said you could look around and see the signs, as you can look at the buds on the fig and tell when spring approaches. If we take Bible time as our measure, there was 2000 years from Adam to Abraham. Then 2000 years from Abraham to Jesus Christ. Now we are just about 2000 years since Christ was here. We know this because of the time King Herod reigned. If the Lord is getting HIS work done in 6000 years in Heaven, as He refers to possibly having done on Earth, as it is in Heaven, HE could be set to return between now and 2018. Hope your hand heals well.
Last edited by jaguartx; 07/18/20.
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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* I don't think you believe that the wording of Genesis 1 is literal. Only the couple of words that you want to be your version of literal. As this statement applies to Ringman, you would be wrong. I'd say that it was meant to be a literal account of creation. It was believed to be literal. The ancient thinkers/writers had no idea of the scope and scale of the world, yet alone the Universe.
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The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.''
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and [b]under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them. Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible. It's more complicated than what can be said in this forum. It is clear that the tribe of Israel borrowed ideas and beliefs from surrounding cultures and modified them in order to build their own religion and identity as a people. There is an evolution of belief on the nature of Yahweh from the early period, tribal god of war to universal creator.
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“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
God destroys the wicked with Death as final punishment.. [ as in dead for eternity]...OK, so where does eternal torment in flames fit in..? You kill someone then torture /torment them forever after that.. 🤔
“Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:43
“Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44
Hellfire is mentioned in Mark 9:47
The O.T. does not describe hell/hades as being flame filled eternal torment, so I take it to be a N.T. christian cult ploy /construct to frighten people into believing. or did God give hell a total make over? It seems that Christian doctrine is not compatible with Judaism. That's what Marcion thought. He didn't see how it was possible the God of the OT and NT were the same God. of course, Marcion was a heretic, not a believer, so I wouldn't put much stake in what he believed.
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[quote=Ringman]If you were to use Hebrew to communicate an indefinite period of time or a long period of time that had a beginning and an ending, what words would you use? I'm not surprised you don't post your answer. It's always the same for those who reject God infallible Word and accept man's fallible word. I asked you a question. I expected you to answer. I wouldn't answer the question for you. How could I know what you would say?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
God destroys the wicked with Death as final punishment.. [ as in dead for eternity]...OK, so where does eternal torment in flames fit in..? You kill someone then torture /torment them forever after that.. 🤔
“Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:43
“Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44
Hellfire is mentioned in Mark 9:47
The O.T. does not describe hell/hades as being flame filled eternal torment, so I take it to be a N.T. christian cult ploy /construct to frighten people into believing. or did God give hell a total make over? It seems that Christian doctrine is not compatible with Judaism. That's what Marcion thought. He didn't see how it was possible the God of the OT and NT were the same God. of course, Marcion was a heretic, not a believer, so I wouldn't put much stake in what he believed. I find it interesting how you claim the right to judge who is, or is not a Christian. Who do you think you are, God?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.''
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and [b]under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them. Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible. It's more complicated than what can be said in this forum. It is clear that the tribe of Israel borrowed ideas and beliefs from surrounding cultures and modified them in order to build their own religion and identity as a people. There is an evolution of belief on the nature of Yahweh from the early period, tribal god of war to universal creator. The Hebrew God wasn't invented by Moses or Abraham. He existed and was worshiped by numerous people groups prior to Abraham. Noah passed down to his sons and they passed down. Concerning these Canaanite people groups, most of them were all related and many of those people groups worshiped "the god of Abraham" which is the same God that was God before Abraham. There were "God believers" from many people groups. The early descendants of Ishmael worshiped the same God as the Hebrews, so it would be surprising if they didn't use the same "common" name of God, "El" or "Elohim". So, I don't know if anyone can say that the Hebrews "borrowed" these or if they simply shared them in common from a point in time and then various religions changed over time.
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“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
God destroys the wicked with Death as final punishment.. [ as in dead for eternity]...OK, so where does eternal torment in flames fit in..? You kill someone then torture /torment them forever after that.. 🤔
“Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:43
“Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44
Hellfire is mentioned in Mark 9:47
The O.T. does not describe hell/hades as being flame filled eternal torment, so I take it to be a N.T. christian cult ploy /construct to frighten people into believing. or did God give hell a total make over? It seems that Christian doctrine is not compatible with Judaism. That's what Marcion thought. He didn't see how it was possible the God of the OT and NT were the same God. of course, Marcion was a heretic, not a believer, so I wouldn't put much stake in what he believed. Why would it be about who happens to believe this or that rather than what is true regardless of who believes this or that? There is an undeniable change in the nature and character of God between the OT and NT.
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“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
God destroys the wicked with Death as final punishment.. [ as in dead for eternity]...OK, so where does eternal torment in flames fit in..? You kill someone then torture /torment them forever after that.. 🤔
“Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:43
“Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44
Hellfire is mentioned in Mark 9:47
The O.T. does not describe hell/hades as being flame filled eternal torment, so I take it to be a N.T. christian cult ploy /construct to frighten people into believing. or did God give hell a total make over? It seems that Christian doctrine is not compatible with Judaism. That's what Marcion thought. He didn't see how it was possible the God of the OT and NT were the same God. of course, Marcion was a heretic, not a believer, so I wouldn't put much stake in what he believed. I find it interesting how you claim the right to judge who is, or is not a Christian. Who do you think you are, God? No, but I am related, albeit by adoption. I didn't determine that Marcion was a heretic, his peers in the church did. But, as I study his teachings and compare them to the Bible, he greatly contradicts the Word of God that he professed to believe and teach......... so that makes him a heretic.
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“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
God destroys the wicked with Death as final punishment.. [ as in dead for eternity]...OK, so where does eternal torment in flames fit in..? You kill someone then torture /torment them forever after that.. 🤔
“Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark 9:43
“Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44
Hellfire is mentioned in Mark 9:47
The O.T. does not describe hell/hades as being flame filled eternal torment, so I take it to be a N.T. christian cult ploy /construct to frighten people into believing. or did God give hell a total make over? It seems that Christian doctrine is not compatible with Judaism. That's what Marcion thought. He didn't see how it was possible the God of the OT and NT were the same God. of course, Marcion was a heretic, not a believer, so I wouldn't put much stake in what he believed. Why would it be about who happens to believe this or that rather than what is true regardless of who believes this or that? There is an undeniable change in the nature and character of God between the OT and NT. actually, no.
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The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.''
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them.
Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible.
It's more complicated than what can be said in this forum. It is clear that the tribe of Israel borrowed ideas and beliefs from surrounding cultures and modified them in order to build their own religion and identity as a people. There is an evolution of belief on the nature of Yahweh from the early period, tribal god of war to universal creator. The Hebrew God wasn't invented by Moses or Abraham. He existed and was worshiped by numerous people groups prior to Abraham. Noah passed down to his sons and they passed down. Concerning these Canaanite people groups, most of them were all related and many of those people groups worshiped "the god of Abraham" which is the same God that was God before Abraham. There were "God believers" from many people groups. The early descendants of Ishmael worshiped the same God as the Hebrews, so it would be surprising if they didn't use the same "common" name of God, "El" or "Elohim". So, I don't know if anyone can say that the Hebrews "borrowed" these or if they simply shared them in common from a point in time and then various religions changed over time. The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.'' [b] Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon ''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and [b]under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them. Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible. It's more complicated than what can be said in this forum. It is clear that the tribe of Israel borrowed ideas and beliefs from surrounding cultures and modified them in order to build their own religion and identity as a people. There is an evolution of belief on the nature of Yahweh from the early period, tribal god of war to universal creator. The Hebrew God wasn't invented by Moses or Abraham. He existed and was worshiped by numerous people groups prior to Abraham. Noah passed down to his sons and they passed down. Concerning these Canaanite people groups, most of them were all related and many of those people groups worshiped "the god of Abraham" which is the same God that was God before Abraham. There were "God believers" from many people groups. The early descendants of Ishmael worshiped the same God as the Hebrews, so it would be surprising if they didn't use the same "common" name of God, "El" or "Elohim". So, I don't know if anyone can say that the Hebrews "borrowed" these or if they simply shared them in common from a point in time and then various religions changed over time. We only have the words of Hebrew writers to tell us that their god exists. Other people believed in other gods. Before the tribe of Israel formed their theology, there was no belief in the God of Abraham.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,843
Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,843 |
You've formulated it like this before, and have already been corrected. Once again, evolution is, scientifically speaking, the prevailing theory of biodiversity. In ordinary parlance, however, it's also a fact, since it's as well established a theory as is scientifically possible. If evolutionism is so strong, why is it every year Ph.D. evolutionist convert to creationism? It's because both sides use the same evidence and eventually some of the scientists get over their brain washing. to be fair, many or most of those convert to "Theistic evolutionists".
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,968
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,968 |
The evolution of Yahweh as the god of the tribe of Israel. Quote:''Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh. Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Canaanite inscriptions mention a lesser god Yahweh and even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel’s development in Canaan.''
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon''The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel’ (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites: When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text). The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god. Yahweh, as the actual name of the supreme being, seems to have remained in use until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century BCE. '' Most people have a misunderstanding about the names of God. God utilizes progressive revelation. IOW, As you travel thru the centuries, God is revealing Himself more and more fully and in various situations until the fullest revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. The reason "Yahweh" is not found in Genesis, is because God had not yet revealed Himself as Yahweh until God spoke to Moses at the Burning Bush episode. He revealed that He would deliver Israel, but they must become "His people" under the covenant. Exodus 6 1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and [b]under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them. Yahweh is the covenant Name of God. Prior to that, He was know as El or Elohim and the many compound names found throughout the Bible. It's more complicated than what can be said in this forum. It is clear that the tribe of Israel borrowed ideas and beliefs from surrounding cultures and modified them in order to build their own religion and identity as a people. There is an evolution of belief on the nature of Yahweh from the early period, tribal god of war to universal creator. The Hebrew God wasn't invented by Moses or Abraham. He existed and was worshiped by numerous people groups prior to Abraham. Noah passed down to his sons and they passed down. Concerning these Canaanite people groups, most of them were all related and many of those people groups worshiped "the god of Abraham" which is the same God that was God before Abraham. There were "God believers" from many people groups. The early descendants of Ishmael worshiped the same God as the Hebrews, so it would be surprising if they didn't use the same "common" name of God, "El" or "Elohim". So, I don't know if anyone can say that the Hebrews "borrowed" these or if they simply shared them in common from a point in time and then various religions changed over time. The way you talk about Noah, it appears you hold a literal interpretation of the flood story. Is that the case?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,843
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Posts: 1,843 |
We DO know that the earth is billions of years old. Radioactive decay and half-lives are FACTS. They can be proven over and over again. Nuclear fission and nuclear fusion are FACTS. Uranium-lead and potassium-argon dating methods are FACTS. The logic of the quack pseudoscientific creation ‘scientists’...or rather the lack of it...on this matter is like them saying ‘there is no proof’ that linear accelerators work in treating cancer. Or that ‘there is no proof’ that controlled nuclear fission can produce usable energy, etc. Science makes their lives better and easier, every single day. From the clean water that they routinely have piped into their home, to the safe and plentiful food that they routinely consume, to the reliable transportation that they routinely depend on, etc.. ALL of it is due to science. In my opinion, these people discredit Christianity when they give Sunday school answers and explanations and rebuttals to real world questions and discussions. In my opinion, these people discredit Christianity when they demand things are a certain way, even though we have FACTUAL evidence otherwise. I see no problem with believing in God...and in particular trying to follow Jesus’ teachings...while at the same time understanding FACTS and TRUTHS regarding the world in which we live. In my opinion, these people clearly have a problem doing that. "Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.” - St. Augustine 354 – 430 AD thank you for posting that. It was on my to-do list.
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