I don't know if anyone caught this post this morning since there's been so many. It might answer several questions that came up today. It goes into the beliefs about salvation as taught by different religions. Then it covers the topic from a Biblical perspective. After you watch it, feel free to contact me PM or here and I'll try to get back to answer questions tomorrow evening. It's called Eternal or Not, the movie.
Everyone has sinned and fallen short. Let me ask in another way. If a man really believes in Jesus and accepts him through faith but goes into a rage one day and completely out of character kills his neighbor in a dispute. And then admits to God he was wrong. Does he get to keep his salvation? I am sure there are a lot of people who believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and accept him by faith, but in moments of weakness go AWOL. Just wondering what you think. You know King David had a lot of trouble keeping it between the ditches.
Yes, of course he "keeps his salvation" (though my belief is once saved always saved, but the question is WERE we ever saved). Conversely, If he murders weekly, asking for forgiveness each time "by the blood of Jesus", but not putting up a good fight nor changing his pattern of sin, with no atonement, then according to John, he never had salvation.
Assume I struggle with an addiction. I know its wrong. I would willingly give in to the addiction if not for the fact that I'm a Christian. God's word is the only reason I fight it. I fight it every day tooth and nail. I win on more days than I lose, but its a continuous battle and I do lose some. Is this a "pattern" of sin? I don't think so. I believe a pattern is if I lose a lot more than I win and have the attitude that its okay, God forgives, and don't fight it with every fiber of my being.
King David, a man after God's own heart, despite his weakness. God also laid a heavy hand on David.
I believe we have lost sight of Gods utter hatred of sin and do not take it nearly as serious as we should. Ask King David. Ask Noah. Most churches romanticize the flood by showing a big beautiful ark full of cute animals. What is not taught is all of the dead rotten human bodies floating on the surface with smell so putrid that it can't be stomached. All humanity, except those on the ark, killed by God because of his hatred of sin. The entire old testament is the same theme. God hates sin, lays down a heavy hand, and the atonement for sin is a blood bath. With Jesus came the new covenant and Jesus blood now atones for our sin. But rest assured, God still hates sin just as much now as he did in the old testament. If a person thinks its as simple as "asking God into their heart" but keeps on sinning, prays for forgiveness, with no attempt for atonement, I'm afraid the narrow gate is going to surprise them.
As mentioned previously in this thread, a thorough reading of scripture proves God is not this big Teddy Bear as he is portrayed in the modern church. God is to be feared.
most folks put too much thought into faith, it's pretty simple either you have it or you don't. You don't need to go to church or prove it to anyone else, its what you know in your heart. People like to make things complicated.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Do you operate with this personal relationship/experience being the means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually?
It is a means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually. Obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t only accomplished through the Bible.
Can you give examples of the means outside of scripture?
most folks put too much thought into faith, it's pretty simple either you have it or you don't. You don't need to go to church or prove it to anyone else, its what you know in your heart. People like to make things complicated.
Church isn’t about proving your faith it’s about building it up by participation in the means that God has appointed for that purpose.
Christianity isn’t about mere faith for faith’s sake it is about the proper object of faith. That is In the person and work of Jesus the Christ who provided for us salvation by grace alone through faith alone on account of His work alone to the glory of God the Father alone.
There is somewhat of a safety in basing your decisions in what God told others to do. The problem with it however is that you are left with a book of directions and examples of what God did long ago rather than a living God in you. Read Hebrews for example.The entire theme is that there is no longer any boundary between you and God. What good is it for God to provide a way for you to stand in his presence guilt free but you would rather just read an account of what he told somebody else to do?
The usefulness of the scriptures is not as a book of God's words to you,but as a book that reveals to you a way that you can hear from God for yourself. Yes,nobody will hear the same but that's the point. Your problems and weaknesses are completely different from mine. There's no danger for the seeker of truth. There's no danger of being wrong for he who seeks what is right. Follow peace,love,joy,goodness,all of what the bible calls fruit of the Spirit and your path is always sure. The real danger is when we stand up and declare that we know God because we have read the book. Therein lies pride. I'm not telling you to throw away your bible. I'm telling you the bible is the path,rather than the destination.
Question - God revealed to the local Methodist Church to allow gay pastors. What say you?
The only thing I could tell you about anything is to follow TRUTH. Now,figuring out what TRUTH really is and separating TRUTH from opinion and personal experience is up to you. It's not as easy as it first appears and often requires deep personal examination of why you think a particular way.
Sorry I missed this. So if a homosexual, after much self examination, decides his truth is that homosexuality is not a sin, even though the Bible specifically condemns it, then its not a sin? Wow. This Christianity thing is easy. If God reveals to my heart that these liberal scumbags need to die, and after much personal examination of why I feel this way, I determine its right. I kill them. Its all good? I'm sure at least one of the child molesting Catholic Priest felt in his heart that it was justified. The others didn't. So it was not a sin for him but it was for the others? That verse about the narrow gate and those entering will be few, that isn't my truth, therefore it isn't so. In other words, edit scripture according to what your heart tells you after self examination.
I hope I misunderstood you.
Yea,you don't understand at all,but I doubt any further explanation would help.
Yea,you don't understand at all,but I doubt any further explanation would help.
Actually I think I do understand. But it does get confusing and convoluted when Truth isnt the Bible. Thats the point. The Bible is THE Truth. Why is it so hard for some (you) to say its wrong because the Bible says so? Instead your response is "The only thing I could tell you about anything is to follow TRUTH. Now,figuring out what TRUTH really is and separating TRUTH from opinion and personal experience is up to you."
Yea,you don't understand at all,but I doubt any further explanation would help.
Actually I think I do understand. But it does get confusing and convoluted when Truth isnt the Bible. Thats the point. The Bible is THE Truth. Why is it so hard for some (you) to say its wrong because the Bible says so? Instead your response is "The only thing I could tell you about anything is to follow TRUTH. Now,figuring out what TRUTH really is and separating TRUTH from opinion and personal experience is up to you."
Let's just reverse your conjecture so maybe you can see how shallow it is. What you are in effect saying is that you couldn't and wouldn't know TRUTH without your written bible to tell you. You must not even be saved. Isn't the Spirit of TRUTH supposed to live inside you after salvation and guide you into all TRUTH,or did you just think that meant He would tell you to read your bible more?
Let's just reverse your conjecture so maybe you can see how shallow it is. What you are in effect saying is that you couldn't and wouldn't know TRUTH without your written bible to tell you. You must not even be saved. Isn't the Spirit of TRUTH supposed to live inside you after salvation and guide you into all TRUTH,or did you just think that meant He would tell you to read your bible more?
You are absolutely correct. Without the Bible I would be one bad son of bitch. Bank it. My wicked heart would twist shet up bad. My church would look like it was managed by Kid Rock, with ladies in bikinis collecting the tithe, because after all, it would bring in a large crowd and increase the tithing, and I do appreciate a well worn bikini. Meanwhile, back at the church with a gay pastor..........
Do you operate with this personal relationship/experience being the means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually?
It is a means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually. Obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t only accomplished through the Bible.
Can you give examples of the means outside of scripture?
Yes. Examples of a means outside of the Bible include ALL of the early first century Christians who obtained knowledge of God and grew spiritually outside of the Bible, which didn’t even exist yet. Christianity spread like an airborne disease during its extreme persecution years before the Bible ever existed. These people were not motivated by, guided by, nor comforted by the Bible which didn’t even exist yet. They knew the way and the truth and the life WITHOUT having a Bible to tell them.
Everyone has sinned and fallen short. Let me ask in another way. If a man really believes in Jesus and accepts him through faith but goes into a rage one day and completely out of character kills his neighbor in a dispute. And then admits to God he was wrong. Does he get to keep his salvation? I am sure there are a lot of people who believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and accept him by faith, but in moments of weakness go AWOL. Just wondering what you think. You know King David had a lot of trouble keeping it between the ditches.
Yes, of course he "keeps his salvation" (though my belief is once saved always saved, but the question is WERE we ever saved). Conversely, If he murders weekly, asking for forgiveness each time "by the blood of Jesus", but not putting up a good fight nor changing his pattern of sin, with no atonement, then according to John, he never had salvation.
Assume I struggle with an addiction. I know its wrong. I would willingly give in to the addiction if not for the fact that I'm a Christian. God's word is the only reason I fight it. I fight it every day tooth and nail. I win on more days than I lose, but its a continuous battle and I do lose some. Is this a "pattern" of sin? I don't think so. I believe a pattern is if I lose a lot more than I win and have the attitude that its okay, God forgives, and don't fight it with every fiber of my being.
King David, a man after God's own heart, despite his weakness. God also laid a heavy hand on David.
I believe we have lost sight of Gods utter hatred of sin and do not take it nearly as serious as we should. Ask King David. Ask Noah. Most churches romanticize the flood by showing a big beautiful ark full of cute animals. What is not taught is all of the dead rotten human bodies floating on the surface with smell so putrid that it can't be stomached. All humanity, except those on the ark, killed by God because of his hatred of sin. The entire old testament is the same theme. God hates sin, lays down a heavy hand, and the atonement for sin is a blood bath. With Jesus came the new covenant and Jesus blood now atones for our sin. But rest assured, God still hates sin just as much now as he did in the old testament. If a person thinks its as simple as "asking God into their heart" but keeps on sinning, prays for forgiveness, with no attempt for atonement, I'm afraid the narrow gate is going to surprise them.
As mentioned previously in this thread, a thorough reading of scripture proves God is not this big Teddy Bear as he is portrayed in the modern church. God is to be feared.
In the book of James we are told faith without works is dead. That haunted me for years until I died to self & was born again. Living a lifestyle of sin, instead of being tripped up by sin is different. If one says they are saved, but there was no change in their life they should closely examine their faith. God is to be feared. God is to be loved, and so is our neighbor.
Yes. ALL of the early first century Christians obtained knowledge of God and grew spiritually outside of the Bible, which didn’t even exist yet. Christianity spread like an airborne disease during its extreme persecution years before the Bible ever existed. These people were not motivated by, guided by, nor comforted by the Bible which didn’t even exist yet.
The first century Christians did have the bible. The same one that Jesus used when he opened the scroll. Jesus testified to the veracity of the prophets and the law. The first century Christians surely knew Jesus' teachings. I believe a Christian could do just fine today with only the Old Testament and Matthew's account of Jesus.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
In the book of James we are told faith without works is dead. That haunted me for years until I died to self & was born again. Living a lifestyle of sin, instead of being tripped up by sin is different. If one says they are saved, but there was no change in their life they should closely examine their faith. God is to be feared. God is to be loved, and so is our neighbor.
Let's just reverse your conjecture so maybe you can see how shallow it is. What you are in effect saying is that you couldn't and wouldn't know TRUTH without your written bible to tell you. You must not even be saved. Isn't the Spirit of TRUTH supposed to live inside you after salvation and guide you into all TRUTH,or did you just think that meant He would tell you to read your bible more?
You are absolutely correct. Without the Bible I would be one bad son of bitch. Bank it. My wicked heart would twist shet up bad. My church would look like it was managed by Kid Rock, with ladies in bikinis collecting the tithe, because after all, it would bring in a large crowd and increase the tithing. Meanwhile, back at your church with a gay pastor..........
Then,I would say you have sadly placed all your faith-trust in a book of rules,rather than in the living God.
Then,I would say you have sadly placed all your faith-trust in a book of rules,rather than in the living God.
I am totally depraved my man. The Bible is my guide. Guilty as charged. Meanwhile back at the gay church with a bikini offering, there are rumblings that since homosexuality is okay, that adultery should be too. I hear those offering girls are starting to get around. I realize this church sounds a lot like Sodom and Gomorrah that God burned to the ground including the inhabitants, but their heart is their guide, so its all good.
Yes. ALL of the early first century Christians obtained knowledge of God and grew spiritually outside of the Bible, which didn’t even exist yet. Christianity spread like an airborne disease during its extreme persecution years before the Bible ever existed. These people were not motivated by, guided by, nor comforted by the Bible which didn’t even exist yet.
The first century Christians did have the bible. The same one that Jesus used when he opened the scroll. Jesus testified to the veracity of the prophets and the law. The first century Christians surely knew Jesus' teachings. I believe a Christian could do just fine today with only the Old Testament and Matthew's account of Jesus.
The Law and the Prophets that the Hebrews had is not the Bible as we know it today, and it is not the Bible that is being referred to in these discussions. The Law and the Prophets is not the Christian Bible that we have today (chaptered, versed, mapped, and wrapped). The Christian Bible that we have today is the one that is being referred to in these discussions. But, those first century Jewish Christians didn’t have their lives changed by the Law and the Prophets that they’d been reading and studying and living by for their entire lives. The Apostles didn’t become emboldened and stand up to the very power structure that had Jesus crucified because they were motivated by the Law and the Prophets that they’d been reading and studying and living by for their entire lives.
In the book of James we are told faith without works is dead. That haunted me for years until I died to self & was born again. Living a lifestyle of sin, instead of being tripped up by sin is different. If one says they are saved, but there was no change in their life they should closely examine their faith. God is to be feared. God is to be loved, and so is our neighbor.
I really believe James (brother of Jesus) had to be written to straighten out the misinformation spread by Paul. Likewise John in Revelation 2 quoted Jesus who congratulated the church in Ephesus for exposing him. Jesus and John the Baptist both emphasized salvation through repentance exemplified by a changed life and good works. This was nothing new then and has been the theme of the whole bible. The Lord stood ready to forgive at all times. He saved David, Nebuchadnezzar, and the whole city of Nineveh. The story of the prodigal son and the tax collector and many more were told to illustrate the need for repentance. Quoting Jesus "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish"
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I really believe James (brother of Jesus) had to be written to straighten out the misinformation spread by Paul. Likewise John in Revelation 2 quoted Jesus who congratulated the church in Ephesus for exposing him. Jesus and John the Baptist both emphasized salvation through repentance exemplified by a changed life and good works. This was nothing new then and has been the theme of the whole bible. The Lord stood ready to forgive at all times. He saved David, Nebuchadnezzar, and the whole city of Nineveh. The story of the prodigal son and the tax collector and many more were told to illustrate the need for repentance. Quoting Jesus "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish"
Hastings, you believe different than every theologian past and present. Things that make you go hummmmmm.
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