Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Buy a donkey, Sir Jerry.
If you have a record of the length of your custom-moulded .440"/ 570-ish gr FN slick cast bullet, please remind me.
I will try to remember it this time.

On a more serious note:

The Brits and Americans traveled similar leapfrogging paths of firearms development.
These sights on a .461 Gibbs No. 2 are almost as amazing as the final winning leap to the .458 Winchester Magnum:



There are graduations labeled for both 570-gr and 360-gr bulleted loads at various yardages.
570-gr bullet with 90-gr BP
360-gr bullet with 100-gr BP

The Brits were actually quite slow on the breech-loader cartridge development compared to the Americans,
and they have taken credit for some developments that were American.
There were drawn brass cases in the U.S for rimfire rifle cases of .44- to .58-caliber starting in 1860.
The .50-70 Government centerfire arrived in 1866, while the Brits were still fussing with coiled cases for the likes of the .450 BPE.
The Brits finally got into drawn brass cases about 1872.
Belted cases were in use in the U.S. before H&H claimed the development about a half century later.
Historical notes from a cartridge collector's catalog:



From a 1952 GUN DIGEST article by Paul Foster:





Oliver F. Winchester was quite the pioneer, culminating posthumously in his namesake supreme:











In the 1870's the Sharps business was hot and heavy.



Sharps may have never sold any rifles in .45-cal. 3-1/4" case length,
but Winchester surely took advantage of the Sharps name after the Sharps Rifle Co. went belly up ...

Another fine twig on the family tree of the .458 Winchester Magnum:

May I mention again what I've referred to on the "other forum" as one reliable testimony of the effectiveness of factory ammo from a Winchester M70, .458 Win Mag on eles and buff in Kenya in the 1960s and up to the closure of hunting in 1977?

A very close friend, who was a high school principal in the area of New Brunswick, Canada, where I was a young pastor (both in our twenties) went to the Rift Valley Academy in Kenya in 1960 as administrator and teacher (along with wife and two toddlers). He spent his professional life there, returning to Canada every fourth year on furlough with family. He retired around 2000, returning to New Brunswick permanently in the Fredericton area, the Provincial Capital.

They were active in our church prior to going to Kenya, and often we got together as couples raising young families. We also played golf and chess together. If not the most brilliant man I've ever known to this day, he was one among a very few. On occasion, while on furlough he was a professor at The University of New Brunswick at Fredericton.

When they left for Africa the first time, he took two rifles with him: a .300 Win Mag and a .458 Win Mag, both M70s. He shot MANY elephant and Cape buffalo using factory ammo from his .458 and never once had a mishap or failure, nor did he ever complain of its effectiveness. He didn't own a chronograph, nor was he a handloader. He used, to my knowledge, Winchester ammo in both his .300 and .458. Our families would get together every fourth year in which he'd regale us with hunting stories.

Their son is now an MD somewhere in the USA and their daughter still lives in Africa with her husband doing mission work in a sensitive area that I can't mention due to security reasons.

If I were to believe any independant witness about the effectiveness of the GREAT .458 in the 1960s in Africa it would be his.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

No records on that one Sir Ron as it's an adjustable KAL mould, max weight of either 560-570gr because i cant remember which alloy i used, it's a nose pour with a 180 thou flat meplat, parallel sided, now flat based with Creedmoor type nose, if gifted old age, i could screw it in to make lightweight low recoil 45-70 govt. 350gr paper patch bullets for shooting deer.

The other mould is a David Mos mould Saint Bagwell gave me to shoot in my original 45-110 buffalo rifle, a 514gr round nose, parallel sided, base pour, that's a direct copy of the 45 cal paper patch bullets the Sharps rifle factory used to load and send out to the Buffalo Hunters, i cast that bullet soft at around 35/1 alloy, with 100gr Goex Express 1F it leaves the old rifle at 1270 fps, also shoots dead to the sights, so everything has to be close to correct for the old gun to be dead on like that, if we remember the 45-70 load [Selous/Seyfried 461 Gibbs] leaves at 1269 fps, plus, that bullet weighs 50-60 grains more than the 45-110 original load, that's what i meant by calling that 45-70 load a hellbender, a real hammer of a load for the stubby 45-70.

BTW, bore and groove on the 18 twist Shiloh 45-70 is .450/.458 in.

LOL on the punt gun hobbit, typical democommie!

Noted, and buy a donkey for this too:



That .458 WM+ has good company.

It was a fine day Sir Ron, Wife said i need to turn the horse loose in the yard to trim that clover, i REFUSE to start mowing in March! ; ]

Too late for me. Have already started.

DF

Dang, wild, wonderful, warm, wet Lousiana!

You got it.

Ha!

DF

It is so big-boringly easy to beat the .458 Lott with a .458 WM+ at less than 3.6" COL, that I feel a bit jaded by it all.
Sir Jerry aka gunner500 hit on the 500-grain TB Sledgehammer Solid at +2350 fps from his 24"-barreled .458 WM+ on his first time out with the new rifle.
He also has 450-gr TSX loads at +2400 fps and is contemplating trying for +2450 fps, not necessary, but very possible.
AA-2460 was the powder.

What we need for continued interest is to replicate the Bagwell and Selous loads with grease-grooved and paper-patched bullets and BP fired from the mighty .458 WM+.
I am working on it.

However, I won't get too big-bored along the way.
I still need to beat Sir Jerry to 2450 fps with the 450-gr TSX in a 24" barrel with AA-2230 or other powder and less than 3.6" COL.
I have had the 450-gr TSX past 2450 fps with 3.675" COL and a 25" barrel, using AA-2230,
but that was cheating, taking unfair advantage of the over-governed SAAMI .458 Lott's limitations.

Hardly a dull moment for sure, with so many other loads from 250-grainer to 600-grainer to be tried with smokeless and jacketed, monometal, cast lead, and snake shot capsules !
The SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum has got to be the most versatile and useful cartridge ever.

Don't know about all this velocity envy and other problems too. But Cash-is-King sold me some 700 plus gr 0.458" LFNs I'm going to load for my 458 American pseudo Scout. After playing with those and healing up I may rechamber to 458 Win mag. Play Well with Others and Be Well, RZ.

Great ideas Sir Ron! i need to find some AA-2230 for the 450gr TSX's, i also happen to have a wonderful Paul Jones mould, it throws a 570gr AA Smerker grease groove bullet of 570 grains with 20/1 alloy, it the most accurate bullet i've ever fired from my 18 twist Shiloh 45-70, i should cast you some up, lubra-size em to 458" with Bills Black Majik lube and send em on up.

Interesting project, a 2-inch-cased .458 American with a "730-gr" WFNGC "Ranger Rick's" from Matt's Bullets ?
Your type of throating will determine how long you can seat it.
You could certainly run a SAAMI .458 WM reamer into it to correct any throating deficiency, but then why not go all the way to .458 WM 2.5" as you say ?

The internet shows some data for similar bullets in the .458 WM+.
Ammoguide.com:

720-grain Ranger Rick WFNGC



IMR-4895 50.0 gr
COL 3.592"
24"-barreled Ruger No. 1
MV quoted = 1467 fps


Here is a .45-70 Govt. load in a BFR with 10" barrel:



730-gr NEI FNGC (458-645)
H-4198 35.0 gr
COL 3.020"
MV quoted = 1365 fps
Guesstimated pressure of up to 35,000 psi.

If a 730-gr cast lead bullet is 1.737" long,
the 1:14" twist should stabilize at 1080 fps or faster MV,
and a 1:18" twist would require 1800 fps for barely stable.

One good'ol boy on the internet used a 730-gr Ranger Rick in a .458 WM seated to the primary (foremost) crimp groove so COL would be </= 3.340"
in a 1964-vintage pushfeed M70 with 22" barrel:
H4895
52.0 gr >>> 1349 fps
54.0 gr >>> 1618 fps
56.0 gr >>> 1714 fps (case head expansion greater than with factory loads)
58.0 gr >>> Brass extrusion marks on case head, even greater case head expansion, and scary chrono data: 2064 fps, ERROR, and 1680 fps (for the three readings)
60.0 gr >>> BLOWN PRIMER and one reading of 1717 fps

Bubba concluded that he might be OK with 52.0 to 55.0 grains of H4895, but your mileage may vary.

Dang, the weeds are sprouting here in Kentucky too !



Buy a donkey for the offer, Sir Jerry, but I have the grooved bullets covered with 543-gr (Red Death) and 579-gr (Big Blue) FNGC hardcast, PC-painted, and sized to 0.461".

What would be interesting is to see you do some of your 570-gr paper-patched with BP in a .458 WM+.

I have a 530-gr slick to try with 20/1 alloy with paper patch, 5 grains of IMR-SR4759 and 85 grains of GOEX FFg, F215 or WLRM primer, one thin cardboard wad, and Rooster Lube on the patch.
About like .45-100-530 Sharps 2.6"
or a .461 Gibbs No. 1 or 2 Military Match load.
Selous did most of his Selousing with a 540-gr PP bullet and 75 to 90 gr of Curtis & Harvey.
Probably be able to shoot mine for 50 shots without wiping, eh ?

I did a test casting from my mould with gunshow-purchased "wheel weight" ingots.
The mould is the Accurate Molds 44-530P, supposed to be 530-gr in wheel weights.
I got a diameter 0.443" and a weight of 530.9 grains. BOL 1.373".
It will be interesting to see what they weigh in 20/1 alloy, probably really close to the WW in BHN, diameter, and weight.
Paper patching: 0.443" + 0.008" = 0.451" diameter in soft alloy.
Fingers crossed, that might work with a .458 WM with bore diameter of 0.450", but with the long throat, seated far out and plenty of room for the BP,
recalling that a BP load in the .45-70 Govt. is compressed close to a half-inch in a Saint Bagwell load with a 480-gr PH.
IIRC, the old .461 Gibbs No. 1 & No. 2 loads were not much if any compressed because the old thin brass necks buckled so easily.
The Gibbs shot very well without heavy compression.

"A good Bowie knife will get the job done when big cuts are in order -- and it will make the little cuts too.
I know, because I skinned a mouse with mine once just to see if I could.
The knife worked just fine."
The wisdom and skill of Bill Bagwell

Sir Jerry,

As you were.
I get it now.
Screw the smokeless and PC-paint with 20/1 alloy, grease-grooved bullets.
I need to try them with BP in the .458 WM+, sized to .458" and grease-lubed.
I ain't too proud to accept charity if you want to send some 570-gr AA Smerkers my way.
Buy a donkey if you do.
Should be the equivalent of a .45-100-570 Sharps 2.6".
Ought to be a lot like a .461 Gibbs No. 2 load with 570-grainer
with which to Bagwell.

Dang, feed store called, cabbage and cauliflower plants came in, plus i had to whip out a bit of brush-hogging before the next rain, what is it with this work crap getting in the way of powder burning?!

You're set Buddy, and hell yes on the 570 Smerkers, 458 Win Mag+ or Goldie in 45-100 sharps, a match made in heaven for dealing hell to the intendeds ; ]

A cold 10 pack of 555gr slicks are there too, i sent those along with the Smerkers and a handful of playing card wads, at only 10 thou and never get lube saturated they're king when loading stub cases when powder capacity can be an issue, every saved thou counts, in case you ever want to borrow either or both moulds just ask,, they're accurate, true flying, hard hitting bullets Sir, two of the best i have across the caliber spectrum.

It will be easier than eating birthday cake to duplicate or handily exceed the 461 Gibbs, but, as we know, and have seen/learned from Saint Bagwell, no more is needed, if a man were to want to brain an ele simple water quenched wheel weights will get that done.

I'll get to the PO tomorrow.

Sir Jerry's handiwork:



I will run them through .458 WM throats with BP.

I'll get these ready too:

The big Smerkers have a .446 nose, plenty of extra room to chamber after a bit of bore fouling, hope both fly as true for you as they do me, and i'm talking, 45 1/10th, 45 2-7/8''s and 45 3-1/4 Sharps, three different rifles, no ladder loading, no node look, just max Lord Black load and fire, really nice when that happens.

Rekindled interest in the .458 WM leads to retracing the evolution of the cartridge, by history and by shooting loads to replicate the full spectrum of that evolution.
The birth of the ultimately versatile .45-bore conical bullet started with Joseph Whitworth's muzzleloaders.
Starting about 1854, and governmentally employed and restricted to 70 grains of BP and 500-ish-grains of lead bullet weight as design parameters,
Sir Whitworth came up with .45-caliber bullets as most efficient. Shades of the .45-70 Government to come later !
Great engineering.
At the time the hexagonal bores and bullet cross-sections seemed a great technological advance, but soon were superceded.
Fast forward to the further improvements in muzzleloaders of circa 1865 for round bores and bullets, again, still .451" bore diameters.

To better tell the story of the beginnings of the .458 Winchester Magnum supremacy, herewith 3 books will be reviewed with excerpts;

Jonathan Kirton:



George A. Hoyem:



W. W. Greener:



1865 to 1866: Here is the 2000-yard muzzle-loader of William Metford, built by the elder George Gibbs,
with a 10X scope and gain-twist-rifled .451" bore (52-gauge if smooth bore of that diameter), excerpt from Kirton:



By 1869 Metford had changed his muzzleloading rifle to .461" bore, and just a year later he began working with breechloaders and drawn brass cases
in partnership with Gibbs. On that side of the pond most were still using coiled cases for the early breechloaders.



Both .461 Gibbs No.1 and .461 Gibbs No. 2 cartridges may have arrived in drawn brass cartridge cases by 1872,
while the .577/450 Martini-Henry of 1871 was still a coiled case mess.
On the other side of the pond, there was drawn brass splendor throughout the 1860's.
The .50-70 Govt. of 1866 morphed happily into the .45-70 Govt. of 1873.