Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Would you ever load hardball for defense?

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

I'm not sure what the police carry loaded, but very few perps recover from a police shooting. Their situation is different than a homeowner, but I'm sure there have been situations where they wanted something between a +P hollow point and a stun gun.

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

So you didn't want to use lethal force, just hurt them a little bit..

If that is your thought process, unload your gun and put it away completely.

If you use a firearm, and make a statement such as that, you have just earned a one way ticket to prison(+/- the giant civil suit). You have just stated that you did not believe the situation warranted deadly force, but you used a deadly weapon anyway.


You have absolutely NO defense in that case. NONE. ZERO.

I carry non expanding ammo in numerous guns. For various reasons. Penetrating animals, vehicles, etc.

Some older 1911s simply are most reliable with traditional ball profiles, and I consider reliability of paramount performance. I would rather have a 1911 full of ball ammo that I know is going to run 100% of the time, versus a 1911 that is "pretty" reliable with JHPs. Frankly a good SWC or hard cast flat nose is no slouch in the terminal performance game from my experience.

Worrying about terminal performance is definitely secondary to reliability.

The thought of carrying FMJ as a less lethal alternative to JHP in case you need to wing a bad guy to mitigate damage rather than shoot for vital fight stopping organs with an expanding bullet is stunningly stupid!

What's crazy is that this nonsense will go 4 pages, minimum. Ask people to actually shoot guns and it's crickets.

Let these guys load whatever they want. They'll probably miss anyway.

. .In general - my answer is this. I do not want to kill anyone. If I have to use a weapon, I am not going to shoot to wound. I am going to shoot untill the threat is stopped. If in stopping the threat my actions are lethal, then so be it. .

^ ^ ^ pretty much it ^ ^ ^

An interesting point GeorgiaBoy. Then I guess I would ask when is the threat actually stopped? I'm one of the few people on here who has actually had a home invasion. I didn't want to kill anyone either, but three guys were in my house and one of them had already pummeled me pretty good out in the family room with a floor lamp and an oak bar stool. One ran out, but two of them had their backs to me in my son's room when I went for a handgun in another room. Thank God I didn't need to shoot because they ran when they heard me rack the slide. Were they a threat running away? The police dog tracked them and DNA got one guy with a prior burglary and he served time. The judge told him that he was lucky that I didn't shoot. Hard to say what you would do if you haven't been in that situation. I have.

An interesting point GeorgiaBoy. Then I guess I would ask when is the threat actually stopped? I'm one of the few people on here who has actually had a home invasion. I didn't want to kill anyone either, but three guys were in my house and one of them had already pummeled me pretty good out in the family room with a floor lamp and an oak bar stool. One ran out, but two of them had their backs to me in my son's room when I went for a handgun in another room. Thank God I didn't need to shoot because they ran when they heard me rack the slide. Were they a threat running away? The police dog tracked them and DNA got one guy with a prior burglary and he served time. The judge told him that he was lucky that I didn't shoot. Hard to say what you would do if you haven't been in that situation. I have.

Have you considered paying a man to stay at your house when you are home?

My general rules for ammo:

1-Keep your gun loaded with something...
2-Use ratshot for varmints and stuff...
3-Watch Paul Harrel to see how ammo performs in your specific platform. Pick what Paul recommends, or what you can get under Democratic Presidencies.

Thank God I didn't need to shoot because they ran when they heard me rack the slide..

Why the hell would you need to rack the slide on your go to gun in your home?

Thank God I didn't need to shoot because they ran when they heard me rack the slide. .

They damn well wouldn't have heard me rack the slide.

I never wrote that I carried hardball, only that it could be a viable alternative in some situations as a discussion topic. Up until a couple of weeks ago, while I have hundreds of hardball 9mm, I couldn't even find 9mm HST Federal ammo. Yeah, back in 2013 I was a heck of a lot more trusting and unprepared than I am now. Kids and loaded guns around the house wasn't an option. The detective told me the same thing that had I been prepared, the WI. Castle Doctrine would have justified lethal force. Lots of false bravado on here, but in the real world bad guys do depend on good people not being prepared for an attack because they think it couldn't happen to me. It can. My kid had a some cash in his room and these guys knew it.

That's because their would have been no need

My kid had a some cash in his room and these guys knew it.

I never wrote that I carried hardball, only that it could be a viable alternative in some situations as a discussion topic. Up until a couple of weeks ago, while I have hundreds of hardball 9mm, I couldn't even find 9mm HST Federal ammo. Yeah, back in 2013 I was a heck of a lot more trusting and unprepared than I am now. Kids and loaded guns around the house wasn't an option. The detective told me the same thing that had I been prepared, the WI. Castle Doctrine would have justified lethal force. Lots of false bravado on here, but in the real world bad guys do depend on good people not being prepared for an attack because they think it couldn't happen to me. It can. My kid had a some cash in his room and these guys knew it.

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

"I never wrote that I carried hardball, only that it could be a viable alternative in some situations as a discussion topic."


Based on what you are saying, between this statement, and your original post, your intent is to shoot them with hardball ammo, because you just want to hurt them a little bit, but you don't want to possibly kill them.



I am dead serious when I say that you need to unload your firearm and put it away, as it is in your best interest. The application of deadly force is all or nothing. You are either willing to apply deadly force or you are not.

I don't say that to be mean or rude or anything else. I say that as it honestly is in your best interest.


Shooting someone, regardless of if it is loaded with hardball or the latest JHPs is still applying deadly force. You are intentionally applying force that is likely to inflict death or serious physical injury. This nonsense about "Just shoot them in the leg" is exactly that. Poorly informed nonsense.

Unless you are presented with a deadly threat, IE in fear of death or grave bodily injury, you have no business shooting. You can "What if" it to death and carefully create scenarios but that is simply the fact. The laws in most jurisdictions require you to be in fear for your life before you are allowed to shoot someone, and shooting to wound is not part of the picture.


Back to the shooting people in the leg idea.

The legs are filled with veins and arteries and a person can die quite quickly from a leg wound. Everyone knows about the femoral artery, there are a bunch of others such as the tibial artery, saphenous vein, etc. More than I want to type out. Hardball tends to shatter bones. Bone fragments shred veins, arteries and muscle. When that happens, the odds of a guy bleeding out in short order are very high unless you get a tourniquet on the wound, and even then with shattered bones things are sketchy. The odds of losing a leg/limb unless they reach an operating table fairly quickly are also high.




The punchline here is : based on what you have typed and the series of critical thinking errors and being misinformed, you would seriously better off putting your firearm away as it presents more of a liability to you in terms of you getting yourself into massive legal trouble. Put the gun away and go buy a big can of pepper spray. You will be far safer.

Ray, I'm sure we would all be in awe at your own ability to fend off three 20 year olds wearing ski masks intent on robbing you. Heck, it only cost me 13 stitches, a permanent scar and a trip to the hospital. Cost the kid $1,400.00 in restitution, four years in jail and six years probation.

Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

Yep, I knew Cooper carried FMJ. I used to read quite a bit of his material.

Thugs tried to rob an elderly guy that just got home from hospital.

Think he shot one or both through the door.

First took it on the adams apple
Other at the knee.

240 gr JHP from his deer revolver ( .44.mag ).

First was DRT. Other lost the leg.

I dunno how beefy the old mans door was.

Chuck Taylor was an interesting guy with a full resume.

I still carry .45 ACP ball ammo. Nothing wrong with it at all.

I always enjoy Sagebrush's comments. I know that he has earned this knowledge the hard way and I truly respect that.

W. Bill

For clarification.

I don't necessarily advocate ball ammo as a top choice for defense. The reason why it is used in some guns is simply because they are older and not throated to properly feed other profiles such as JHPs or SWCs. Your typical 1911s that were in military armories were designed to feed ball ammo, and that was it.

Yes ball is destructive when it hits bone. It also has a tendency to perform poorly when it does not, such as when it only hits muscle. In cases where a good JHP was not available, I would take a SWC profile every time over ball.

I am friends with Ken Hackathorn, which some may or may not be familiar with. Ken worked for Jeff Cooper for quite some time. Much of what is put in print, versus real life, for selling ad copy and bolstering an image can be quite different. There is a public persona then there is the real person.

Ken has stated numerous times that Mr. Cooper carried SWCs in his Colts (when he loaded it himself). However, being that he was in the industry, his favorite ammo was what is known in certain circles as OPA ammo. OPA stands for "Other People's Ammo". That is ammo that is given to you by agencies, departments, companies, etc. The best ammo is free ammo, and quite often, that is what got carried, especially when it was simply going to be shot up on the range at a class. Yes, that often could be ball ammo, simply because that is what agencies bought and brought to training. That is just a little slice of reality.

I have some older 1911s that do not feed JHPs reliably and they get fed ball ammo. However when using a handgun that reliably feeds any profile projectile, I will choose something that is optimal for the situation, such as a good JHP, or heavy hard cast SWC.


This is (if I recall right) a first production year lightweight commander. It prefers ball ammo only.




I would not deliberately handicap myself by loading ball ammo in a gun that fed a better profile, especially for self/home defense purposes.

I have had shot big desert jackrabbits when hit with 230 grain ball ammo hump up at the hit, then go running off. If you did not hit anything structural or get a CNS hit, then the ball ammo just zipped right through them. Switching to a good SWC type profile saw an immediate change in results. The sharp profile cuts nice clean holes and causes significant damage in terms of terminal performance. This holds true for much larger animals as well.

Punchline is, if your gun feeds nothing but ball, use it. If it feeds JHPs or SWCs, use those instead.

Militaries all around the world have been shooting at each other with hard ball ammo for over a hundred years.

in refernce to the statements Cooper carried FMJS" how manyw ant to bet that decisionw as largely based on poorly perfroming hollow points of the era, and the propensity for most to not run well in a 1911? How many think Cooper would be carrying FMJs today?

The sharp shoulder of the SWC tends to do significantly more damage than round nose/FMJ profiles. With round nose profiles you tend to see narrower wound channels with minimal permanent tearing. The SWC and full wadcutters do substantially more damage while still giving excellent penetration.

I would not feel handicapped at all if I was not able to access jacketed hollow points and had to strictly rely on lead semi wadcutters in .45s. They will absolutely do a great job.

In my experience the H&G #68 (200 grain LSWC) or a close approximation, loaded to 1.250" OAL, will feed about as slick as hardball in properly speced 1911s.

Do you have a favorite mold?

in refernce to the statements Cooper carried FMJS" how manyw ant to bet that decisionw as largely based on poorly perfroming hollow points of the era, and the propensity for most to not run well in a 1911? How many think Cooper would be carrying FMJs today?

Do you have a favorite mold?