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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16345476 08/15/21
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Outstanding story, Dirt! It’s reflections like this that keep me coming back. Thank you!

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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: Mule Deer] #16345480 08/15/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Captain Charles Askins (Askins the Elder) wrote some good stuff on shotguns and bird hunting as well. If you can find a copy of his 1931 book GAME BIRD SHOOTING it not only has a lot to say about shotguns, dogs, etc. but is great look at what upland bird hunting and waterfowling was like in America during the early 20th century.


You going way back with the elder Askins. I have that book and the 1929 printing of his Modern Shotgun Loads. In the fly leaf are ads for books by Ed Crossman, Julian Hatcher, J.R. Mattern and Townsend Whelen. Quite an era. The Major was a great writer, very technical.. His son, the Col, wrote that his Dad hardly ever missed flying targets. He was not only one of the top gunwriters of his day, but was known to be a shotgun guru.

After I ended up (luckily and by chance) with the old man's personal Superposed, I did research, contacted his grandson, Bill Askins in San Antonio, got some interesting Askins info not otherwise published. Bill had been mentioned in the Col's book, Unrepentant Sinner. Reportedly he worked with the "company" in Viet Nam. When Siagon fell, Bill took his band of Montagnards into Thailand, commandeered a C-130 and few out with as many as he could. Others were put on a ship, but it was later captured by the enemy. Bill is into real estate and sells airplanes. Here's the link, sorta long but some good stuff. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=124719

Bill offered me the Major's Ithaca 16 ga Grade 4 Ejector double gun. I had worked some with Walt Snyder, who has written books on Ithacas, thought he should have such a historical gun. I put them together, Walt bought the gun and wrote a great Double Gun Journal piece on it and the Major. It's the Winter, 2013 issue, starts on page 91. Those interested in such would enjoy it. Do I regret not getting that gun? Not really, it's in the right hands. And I still have the Super. And without Walt, that Double Gun article would have never happened.

DF

Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: PintsofCraft] #16345484 08/15/21
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Originally Posted by PintsofCraft
Outstanding story, Dirt! It’s reflections like this that keep me coming back. Thank you!

I re-did it to correct spelling on Montagnard. I had left out the "n".

DF

Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16345608 08/15/21
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I hope all the favorite guns of that generation of writers are in the hands of those who appreciate them. But it's probably not so. Glad those two shotguns of Askin's ended up in good hands! I read an article, or maybe it was here on the fire, about someone who ended up with O'Connor's 2-R Lovell. An interesting read.

Last edited by 300_savage; 08/15/21.
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: pete53] #16345675 08/15/21
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Originally Posted by pete53
anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.


Some clay birds are pretty easy actually. Going away shots from a hand thrower, for example. Even down the line the shots are pretty easy. The hard part is doing it over and over again, never letting your concentration lapse.

I don't disagree that shooting clays is good practice, but some varieties of clay shooting strike me as better practice for field shooting than others.

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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: Dirtfarmer] #16345682 08/15/21
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[quote=Dirtfarmer]

You going way back with the elder Askins. I have that book and the 1929 printing of his Modern Shotgun Loads. In the fly leaf are ads for books by Ed Crossman, Julian Hatcher, J.R. Mattern and Townsend Whelen. Quite an era. The Major was a great writer, very technical.. His son, the Col, wrote that his Dad hardly ever missed flying targets. He was not only one of the top gunwriters of his day, but was known to be a shotgun guru.

After I ended up (luckily and by chance) with the old man's personal Superposed, I did research, contacted his grandson, Bill Askins in San Antonio, got some interesting Askins info not otherwise published. Bill had been mentioned in the Col's book, Unrepentant Sinner. Reportedly he worked with the "company" in Viet Nam. When Siagon fell, Bill took his band of Montagnards into Thailand, commandeered a C-130 and few out with as many as he could. Others were put on a ship, but it was later captured by the enemy. Bill is into real estate and sells airplanes. Here's the link, sorta long but some good stuff. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=124719

Bill offered me the Major's Ithaca 16 ga Grade 4 Ejector double gun. I had worked some with Walt Snyder, who has written books on Ithacas, thought he should have such a historical gun. I put them together, Walt bought the gun and wrote a great Double Gun Journal piece on it and the Major. It's the Winter, 2013 issue, starts on page 91. Those interested in such would enjoy it. Do I regret not getting that gun? Not really, it's in the right hands. And I still have the Super. And without Walt, that Double Gun article would have never happened.

DF

———————————


Tip o the Hat there D F
KUDOS !!!


Jerry


jwall- *** 3100 guy***

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Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: 338Rules] #16345884 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by 338Rules
Originally Posted by battue


This looks like a lot of fun, are the targets re-shootable ?


Yes more than once, but being plastic they get beat up. The white center has to fall inside the ring to score.

Used to be the machines had to be loaded manually and it took a lot of time. Now there are auto loading tube systems that speed it up.

Have shot it a couple times and it isn’t for the weak. It was a humbling experience.

Last edited by battue; 08/16/21.

laissez les bons temps rouler
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: battue] #16346169 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by battue
Pheasants to him were much the same as shooting them in a box.


After even a modest amount of clays in the off-season, shooting pheasants over dogs that let you know they're getting close, is the equivalent of shooting trash-can lids that someone is hand-tossing. Pheasants are big and slow though a stiff wind can up the challenge somewhat.


I can walk on water.......................but I do stagger a bit on alcohol.
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: wahoo] #16346479 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by wahoo
maybe it's that there is less material. after all, how can you wildcat a shotshell? look at how many articles you could write about cartridges, not to mention the old faithful, what's the best cartridge for whatever.


Not less material, but different material. There's plenty written about cartridges and loading, but I don't believe the rifle world comes close to the volumes written about the actual firearm - the shotgun. Over a century of SxS designs and production, coming from innumerable manufacturers, damascus barrels vs fluid steel, from gild guns to bespoke, boxlock vs sidelock design variations, multi-gage sets and presentation sets, etc.

There are only so many "guaranteed MOA accuracy" articles I can tolerate. Classic doubles reading never gets boring.

Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16346627 08/16/21
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Since most today are mainly interested in Semi autos, how many Beretta/Benelli articles would one find interesting

Shotguns in America today are frequently regarded as a disposable tool.

SxS? Most look at them as a throwback from the past, that few can shoot well.

Belong to the Parker forum…few members and limited participation.

Last edited by battue; 08/16/21.

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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dan_oz] #16347413 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by dan_oz
Originally Posted by pete53
anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.


Some clay birds are pretty easy actually. Going away shots from a hand thrower, for example. Even down the line the shots are pretty easy. The hard part is doing it over and over again, never letting your concentration lapse.

I don't disagree that shooting clays is good practice, but some varieties of clay shooting strike me as better practice for field shooting than others.



My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF

Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 08/16/21.
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: Dirtfarmer] #16348222 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by dan_oz
[quote=pete53] anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.[/quote



My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF


Pete,

Would like to know how much you hunt birds. My experience has been the opposite--that the hunters who shoot LOTS of birds are often better wingshots than those who shoot lots of clays. Of course, if most of the people you know don't hunt birds much, then that's an obvious reason they can't hit them as well.

Dirtfarmer's answer is one of the reasons SOME bird hunters miss far fewer edible birds than clays.


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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16348240 08/16/21
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My Bro-N-Law and a few buddies own 2 Pheasant hunting ranches in SD.

They live in UT. They raise 800 chuckars a year to use and "practice" birds before they head up to SD for pheaants.

If you can hit a FAST flying chuckar, you have a pretty good chance of hitting pheasants.

Practice, practice, practice....


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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16348321 08/16/21
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As far as pheasants go, yes, a lot of them are easy to hit--especially if you hunt private land where they don't get pressured much, and especially where a lot of the birds are pen-raised.

That's very different than hunting public-land pheasants, especially late in the season. They're still not as hard as some other wild birds--especially wild chukars on steep hillsides when you're breathing hard, or ruffed grouse, or (as I mentioned earlier) African rock pigeons. But I hunt probably 80% of my pheasants on public land, where they're chased hard for several months each year. Last year the closest shot I got was early in the season--in a shelterbelt that resembled ruffed grouse cover more than typical open private land. The range was about 30 yards, and it took quick shooting.

The others were all taken at 35 to 50 yards, with the longer shots occurring when there was some crunchy snow on the ground, as it often is later in the season. And they were hunted with experienced dogs, both careful flushers and good pointers.

I find hunting wild birds on public land more interesting than on private land. In fact about 20 years ago, when I was doing some "finishing" research on bird-hunting in various parts of the U.S. for SHOTGUNS FOR WINGSHOOTING, and Eileen needed a bunch of wild birds for her book, UPLAND BIRD COOKERY, we put 18,000 miles on our vehicles one fall. We not only hunted wild birds in places from the U.P. of Michigan to eastern Oregon, and Arizona to Alberta, but our young dog (a Lab/Llewellyn setter cross) got to hunt 11 species--and he adapted nicely! In fact, toward the end of the fall more than one of our fellow hunters asked to hunt over Gideon. It was a great autumn, partly because we got lucky and hit various areas just at the right time, including the U.P. just as the woodcock came in....



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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: Dirtfarmer] #16348420 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


[/quote

My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF


Mostly agree….with SC there are more than a few “tricks” the top guns know and use.

However, a good upland Bird shooter also has figured out the ones that work in the field.

And one may or may not be good at both.



Last edited by battue; 08/16/21.

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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16348469 08/16/21
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Nash Buckingham knew shotguns.
He graduated from a 34 in Parker in the 1920s to a Becker-bored HE Super Fox. Askins also had a 3inch Fox.
Mr. Buck's timeless books speak of another age. "De Shootinest Gen'tman" is a classic.
Buckingham probably contributed a great deal to AH Fox shotgun sales in the 20s and 30s.
LC Smith also followed suit with a Long Range Waterfowl 3 in chambering,
and Winchester brought out the 3 in Heavy Duck Model 12.

Changes in duck limits and other factors limited the amount
of waterfowl taken beginning in the 1930s.

Teal and doves in the Southeast will sharpen your
wing shooting abilities or add to your woes.

Last edited by 450Fuller; 08/16/21.
Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: 450Fuller] #16348536 08/16/21
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+1 on teal & doves. Also wild pheasants with a flushing dog or ruffed grouse in cover. Nobody's saying "pull".

Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: 43Shooter] #16348593 08/16/21
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Originally Posted by 43Shooter
+1 on teal & doves. Also wild pheasants with a flushing dog or ruffed grouse in cover. Nobody's saying "pull".


Have found a lot of wild pheasants holed up in what's very similar to ruffed grouse cover later in the season. In particular one of the areas where we used to hunt had several the alder/willow thickets behind beaver dams, and roosters naturally headed there after opening day, because few people hunted there. Have also found the same thing on islands in Montana rivers, especially where hip-boots are required to get there.


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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: dimecovers5] #16348795 08/16/21
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Fairly typical behavior in my neck of the woods in south central PA and western MD, back in the day when there were actually pheasants to be had. More than once I flushed cockbirds out of coverts consisting of edge cover in woods clearings whilst grousing. On a few occasions my pard and I debated whether to load with high-vel 6's or #8 target loads for grouse, knowing that anything could get up in front of us. (Often we compromised and I would stuff my barrels with light 8's and he would go with heavy 6's. Usually we were only kidding ourselves as it never worked out as planned. But, hint: 7/8 oz. of 8's will knock down a pheasant quite handily, as long as you don't try to rake the shot charge straight up its back at a shallow angle on a directly going away shot.)


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Re: Gun writers on Shotguns [Re: gnoahhh] #16349084 08/17/21
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Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.


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