A preacher who believed in a lifetime of probation works asked me, "Do you believe in once saved always saved?"
I looked him in the eye and said, I believe what Jesus promised. " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Hey guys I have an idea. Lets make it so the Bible is portrayed as a big lie then take it out of every day life everywhere in our nation and all will be rainbows and roses. Oh but then someone beat me to that, the liberals and not just the ones in our government. Working out very well, isn't it.
Hey guys I have an idea. Lets make it so the Bible is portrayed as a big lie then take it out of every day life everywhere in our nation and all will be rainbows and roses. Oh but then someone beat me to that, the liberals and not just the ones in our government. Working out very well, isn't it.
Only God can heal our land and protect the rights that He alone provided. When american christians turned over their children to be raised for 8 hours a day, they found out that the liberals influenced that beloved generation. A few cycles of that and the liberal communist goals are met. They are equivalent to what religion?
Hey guys I have an idea. Lets make it so the Bible is portrayed as a big lie then take it out of every day life everywhere in our nation and all will be rainbows and roses. Oh but then someone beat me to that, the liberals and not just the ones in our government. Working out very well, isn't it.
Only God can heal our land and protect the rights that He alone provided. When american christians turned over their children to be raised for 8 hours a day, they found out that the liberals influenced that beloved generation. A few cycles of that and the liberal communist goals are met. They are equivalent to what religion?
When Jesus told the woman to go and "sin no more" and the Apostle Paul told the church " You are responsible for your own salvation", these two instances might put a little crimp into the idea of permanency. And to answer the 3:16 folks, better look real close at 3:5.
You interpret any verse not as a stand-alone but by context and the whole of all scripture.
Hey guys I have an idea. Lets make it so the Bible is portrayed as a big lie then take it out of every day life everywhere in our nation and all will be rainbows and roses. Oh but then someone beat me to that, the liberals and not just the ones in our government. Working out very well, isn't it.
I don't see the bible as a lie. More an expression of what people believed in their time and place. As the authors believed what they wrote, they were not lying.
Well, where to start? First, a lack of conviction does not equate to not having faith in Jesus.
It's not difficult to grasp. Faith is a conviction of truth. Those who have Christian faith believe in the reality of God and Jesus. Believing in Jesus is a conviction of truth, which is a belief.
A belief and a conviction of truth is one and the same principle. Faith is a conviction of truth, which is a belief.....in this instance a conviction/belief held without verifiable evidence.
Originally Posted by TF49
A lack of conviction is simply not being of acceptance of the truth about something.
You got it.
Originally Posted by TF49
Where is the problem if one is not “convicted” of the truth about Jesus? The man “chooses” to reject the truth…he does not accept Jesus. The man rejects the truth. We see this all the time, not only in religion but also in our culture. The man prefers prideful, sweet sounding lies to the reality of truth.[/quotte]
The problem, as pointed out many time, is a lack of verifiable evidence to support a justified conviction of truth. What it says in the bible is no more an example of evidence to support its claims than what is said in the Quran or Gita, etc, etc, in regard to their claims.
[quote=TF49] You are also wrong about atheists being justified by absence of evidence. This is simply wishful thinking and a childish hope for a “Get out of jail free card.”
Wrong. Justification requires evidence. Without evidence you have faith.
This was understood a long time ago.
"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as a useful tool." - Seneca
A person of reason considers the evidence and forms convictions based on the weight of evidence. And once again, if evidence for the existence of a God or gods comes to light, reason demands a conviction in their existence.
To condemn someone for exercising reason is an grave injustice.
Well, you are still wrong. To close, the opinions you espouse….. and your opinion is that the evidence does not exist. You are wrong on that. The evidence exists, but you discount it. You have blinders on.
Nobody is condemned for exercising reason. Condemnation comes from rejecting God.
In fact, clear thinking and unpolluted reasoning brings one straight to God.
You also have muddled thoughts on ”faith.” Faith is indeed based on evidence….and experience….but you are not “convinced” and are simply rejecting the evidence to suit your own twisted views.
I didn't offer my opinion. I pointed to accepted definitions of words and references, and to the injustice of condemnation based on a lack of conviction. In this instance, not being convinced/believing in supernatural bible stories, God, salvation, etc, simply because that's what the gospels say.
Requiring convicing evidence that supports extraordinary claims is not a punishable crime. It's basic practice in everyday life, except it seems when it comes to religion and faith.
Nope….. one is not condemned for “not being convinced/believing in supernatural Bible stories.” I don’t believe you can back up your statement….. justify that Jesus taught that…. that this is Christian doctrine.
You can’t back up what you say…. You fabricate…. Make up…. What you call Christian teaching is false..in reality it is just a straw man of your own making that you ridicule. You lay on your own wrongful interpretation of Jesus teaching, then complain about it.
Well, you can’t back up what you say…..so let me show you why you can’t: this is Jesus speaking to a group of Jewish leaders. Pharisees if you will. These are folks who know…. Without a doubt, that Jesus has been performing miracles… yet, they still refuse….. they still reject. This is not a matter of “insufficient evidence.” This is a hard heart and pride issue. A hard heart and a prideful attitude will not ever see the evidence…. Will not ever be convinced.
John 5:39-40
“You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in the, you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
Jesus is the source of “life.” There is no other. …”…yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
Rejection of the Son….. that is the issue. Simply saying “….well God, this is your fault because you failed to convince me” is not a viable defense. See Romans 1:20
Come to Jesus…. Have life.
Don’t come to Jesus…. Reject Him….. the result is then no “life.”
Last edited by TF49; 09/28/21.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Nope….. one is not condemned for “not being convinced/believing in supernatural Bible stories.” I don’t believe you can back up your statement….. justify that Jesus taught that…. that this is Christian doctrine.
Are you saying that non believers, those who do not believe in Jesus are saved? ''Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.'' - Romans 10:9
What happens if you don't? It makes no difference?
''Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'' - John 14:6
''No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'' - John 6:44
What if you have no belief in this? Are you exempt?
Are you claiming that it makes no difference whether you believe or not?
What about this? ---- ''Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'' Mark 16:16
Does it not mean what it says? Does it mean the opposite, that you are saved regardless of not believing?
Originally Posted by TF49
You can’t back up what you say…. You fabricate…. Make up…. What you call Christian teaching is false..in reality it is just a straw man of your own making that you ridicule. You lay on your own wrongful interpretation of Jesus teaching, then complain about it.
Nothing of the sort. Consider the implications of the verse above.
I believe that from the moment someone truly believes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that God has raised Him from the dead, that they receive salvation. And that the only condition to receiving it is truly believing and truly accepting it. And that good works are not required to merit, maintain, or prove it. But they are part of following Jesus. I believe salvation to be eternal, regardless of future actions...including sins, unbelief, and even apostasy...though believers who do these things will face God’s admonishment. To me, the extension of God’s grace is wholly done by Him alone and we have no part in it beyond truly believing and truly receiving it.
Agreed!
I'm not sure I agree. I don't mean this to be antagonistic. I'm saying this in questioning my own faith regarding this issue.
Look, I found Grace at 18. I found it in a roundabout way. I did a good deal of sinning in the years after, and finally settled down and got myself right with the Lord. As I said previously, I believe there is one sin that God does not forgive and that is Apostacy-- the willful denial of God. Given that, I believe that this then opens up the door for accepting Free Will into the mix.
If I had to give an analogy, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior puts you on the tracks for running a proper life. However, there are all sorts of things one can do to run your engine off the tracks down the line. One does not get issued a free pass on accepting Grace. In fact, there is a lifetime of temptation ahead, and the hard work is just beginning.
Where I think your view and mine intersect is that I believe God is always out there doing the best He can to help us along. This is all about us turning away from Him and not about Him turning his back on us.
I could be dead wrong on all this, but I figure it is better to run my life assuming that I have the Free WIll to muck things up, than to believe that I have no control and find that to be a delusion later on.
I believe that God’s saving grace is unconditional and everlasting, and that Jesus’ work of redemption is total and complete and everlasting. Once we truly believe and truly receive it, our sins, all of em’...past, present, and future...are covered by the Blood of the Atonement. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it. John 3:16 is the gospel in a nutshell, and it says that we have received everlasting life. That means forever. Period.
To me, it seems that the ‘unforgivable’ status is tied to an ongoing and willful hard-heartedness. It doesn’t so much prevent them from being forgiven, more so it prevents them from doing what’s necessary to seek forgiveness. It seems that “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” was committed by Jesus’ adversaries and ‘not’ by those who had professed allegiance to Him. The danger...the ultimate basis for ‘unforgivable’...to me, appears to be a hard-hearted, unbelieving, and unrepentant attitude towards God, by those whose sins had never been covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
You and I are sinners.....even though our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.....we still sin, and we will still die sinners. You and I must still account for our lives though, we will both still stand in judgement before our Creator, and be admonished for our sin.....including our continued sin ‘after’ we accepted God’s saving grace. But, to me, the eternal consequences of our sin...all of em’...will be ‘passed over’ because our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
It’s OK if our opinions differ on this matter; we may also disagree on some aspects of politics or child rearing or elk hunting. Our difference of opinion on any of these things in no way diminishes any of these things.
Curtis Huson was a fundamentalist Baptist preacher. His statement near the end that Baptists are the only large group of Christians that have eternal security in their doctrine is wrong., But he's absolutely right when he says what the Christian misses out on when they don't believe it.
When Jesus told the woman to go and "sin no more" and the Apostle Paul told the church " You are responsible for your own salvation", these two instances might put a little crimp into the idea of permanency. And to answer the 3:16 folks, better look real close at 3:5.
God's Word is Truth Forever. The woman at the well had not yet come to a saving relationship with Jesus and had a long line of mistakes that God did not condone. The Lord most certainly knows our hearts, and she had not done that which solidifies her salvation yet. However, once the woman went back into her village and told her fellow Samaritans what she had heard the Lord say and they went for themselves to see Him, begged him to stay with them and the Lord did stay two days and many Samaritans' were saved. Because she believed after she heard the Lord and went back and told others. This is what the scriptures tell us to do.
You had better look real close at the whole Bible, because Satan has a hold on you. You will need to cast him out to let the Lord in. But you are not alone. So many on here are in the same boat.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
I believe that God’s saving grace is unconditional and everlasting, and that Jesus’ work of redemption is total and complete and everlasting. Once we truly believe and truly receive it, our sins, all of em’...past, present, and future...are covered by the Blood of the Atonement. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it. John 3:16 is the gospel in a nutshell, and it says that we have received everlasting life. That means forever. Period.
To me, it seems that the ‘unforgivable’ status is tied to an ongoing and willful hard-heartedness. It doesn’t so much prevent them from being forgiven, more so it prevents them from doing what’s necessary to seek forgiveness. It seems that “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” was committed by Jesus’ adversaries and ‘not’ by those who had professed allegiance to Him. The danger...the ultimate basis for ‘unforgivable’...to me, appears to be a hard-hearted, unbelieving, and unrepentant attitude towards God, by those whose sins had never been covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
You and I are sinners.....even though our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.....we still sin, and we will still die sinners. You and I must still account for our lives though, we will both still stand in judgement before our Creator, and be admonished for our sin.....including our continued sin ‘after’ we accepted God’s saving grace. But, to me, the eternal consequences of our sin...all of em’...will be ‘passed over’ because our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
It’s OK if our opinions differ on this matter; we may also disagree on some aspects of politics or child rearing or elk hunting. Our difference of opinion on any of these things in no way diminishes any of these things.
Amen, Brother!
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
I believe that from the moment someone truly believes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that God has raised Him from the dead, that they receive salvation. And that the only condition to receiving it is truly believing and truly accepting it. And that good works are not required to merit, maintain, or prove it. But they are part of following Jesus. I believe salvation to be eternal, regardless of future actions...including sins, unbelief, and even apostasy...though believers who do these things will face God’s admonishment. To me, the extension of God’s grace is wholly done by Him alone and we have no part in it beyond truly believing and truly receiving it.
Agreed!
I'm not sure I agree. I don't mean this to be antagonistic. I'm saying this in questioning my own faith regarding this issue.
Look, I found Grace at 18. I found it in a roundabout way. I did a good deal of sinning in the years after, and finally settled down and got myself right with the Lord. As I said previously, I believe there is one sin that God does not forgive and that is Apostacy-- the willful denial of God. Given that, I believe that this then opens up the door for accepting Free Will into the mix.
If I had to give an analogy, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior puts you on the tracks for running a proper life. However, there are all sorts of things one can do to run your engine off the tracks down the line. One does not get issued a free pass on accepting Grace. In fact, there is a lifetime of temptation ahead, and the hard work is just beginning.
Where I think your view and mine intersect is that I believe God is always out there doing the best He can to help us along. This is all about us turning away from Him and not about Him turning his back on us.
I could be dead wrong on all this, but I figure it is better to run my life assuming that I have the Free WIll to muck things up, than to believe that I have no control and find that to be a delusion later on.
Except that Jesus said that apostasy is NOT the unforgivable sin. It's calling the Holy Spirit evil. Read Mark 3, 22-30. The Jews had accused him of using the power of Satan to cast out demons. In his response to them, Jesus said that all other sins are forgivable but not this one. V. 30 then specifies what their sin was.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
I believe that God’s saving grace is unconditional and everlasting, and that Jesus’ work of redemption is total and complete and everlasting. Once we truly believe and truly receive it, our sins, all of em’...past, present, and future...are covered by the Blood of the Atonement. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it. John 3:16 is the gospel in a nutshell, and it says that we have received everlasting life. That means forever. Period.
To me, it seems that the ‘unforgivable’ status is tied to an ongoing and willful hard-heartedness. It doesn’t so much prevent them from being forgiven, more so it prevents them from doing what’s necessary to seek forgiveness. It seems that “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” was committed by Jesus’ adversaries and ‘not’ by those who had professed allegiance to Him. The danger...the ultimate basis for ‘unforgivable’...to me, appears to be a hard-hearted, unbelieving, and unrepentant attitude towards God, by those whose sins had never been covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
You and I are sinners.....even though our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.....we still sin, and we will still die sinners. You and I must still account for our lives though, we will both still stand in judgement before our Creator, and be admonished for our sin.....including our continued sin ‘after’ we accepted God’s saving grace. But, to me, the eternal consequences of our sin...all of em’...will be ‘passed over’ because our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.
It’s OK if our opinions differ on this matter; we may also disagree on some aspects of politics or child rearing or elk hunting. Our difference of opinion on any of these things in no way diminishes any of these things.
We are indeeds sinners as Christians. It is unfortunate that piety movements have tried to erase this truth and have changed the message making another gospel.
Martin Luther, as a Augustinian monk, was a pietist like no other. Any three men on this forum could not have matched him in his works. Even with his severe and self harming piety he was haunted by the very real truth that he did not keep the 10 commandments no matter how hard he tried. He was condemned by the Law not made righteous.
He was studying Romans. I’m sure that he had read it many times. On one occasion the light came on when he read the quote from Genesis. “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness”.
Imputation is a twenty dollar word, a scriptural word, that has been extracted from most church doctrine to the detriment of the church. Luther began to understand what scripture was teaching.
Abraham, father of the faithful, was not righteous. He was “viewed” as righteous. He possessed an alien righteousness based on the promise. The same righteousness that is imputed to ALL who are in Christ.
That being the case, as you said, we are indeed all still sinners. No participant on this thread keeps the law. People go to elaborate means to tell themselves that they do but every man is imperfect in every aspect of the law and breaks the commandments daily. People like to say that they make mistakes. No. It’s sin. Yet, there is no condemnation because of Christ righteousness being imputed to those who believe.
When Jesus told the woman to go and "sin no more" and the Apostle Paul told the church " You are responsible for your own salvation", these two instances might put a little crimp into the idea of permanency. And to answer the 3:16 folks, better look real close at 3:5.
God's Word is Truth Forever. The woman at the well had not yet come to a saving relationship with Jesus and had a long line of mistakes that God did not condone. The Lord most certainly knows our hearts, and she had not done that which solidifies her salvation yet. However, once the woman went back into her village and told her fellow Samaritans what she had heard the Lord say and they went for themselves to see Him, begged him to stay with them and the Lord did stay two days and many Samaritans' were saved. Because she believed after she heard the Lord and went back and told others. This is what the scriptures tell us to do.
You had better look real close at the whole Bible, because Satan has a hold on you. You will need to cast him out to let the Lord in. But you are not alone. So many on here are in the same boat.
Since when is NOT sinning in the best interests of Satan?
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