Sunday AM
Ralph Arnold, pastor of Calvary Community Church of Tampa

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have commited unto him against that day!


ya!

GWB

Forever.

My salvation is sealed.

When Jesus told the woman to go and "sin no more" and the Apostle Paul told the church " You are responsible for your own salvation", these two instances might put a little crimp into the idea of permanency. And to answer the 3:16 folks, better look real close at 3:5.

My name is written in the Lambs book of life. My salvation is as secure as Gods promises and the bible is full of them. God does not break his promises

John 3:5 is often misinterpreted to mean that baptism is required for salvation. It isn't. Faith alone is all that's required.

GWB,

That was a great song to start my day.
Thank you.

I'm glad to hear it!

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..."

Ephesians 1

"When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we first begun!"

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it.

Works accomplish nothing in gaining or “maintaining” salvation.

Amen!

Jesus said,
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

John 10

Here's the verse and context.

John 3:3-7
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

First birth = flesh = from the water of the mothers womb
Born of the mother is her baby.

Born again = Spirit is spirit = spiritual birth

How this occurs is 15-18
Note that verse 18 does not mention faith in baptism.
Who must one believe in order to be saved from the condemnation?

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Believe it or not my friend, this term is used exactly 100 times in this gospel alone.

Who must one believe in order to be saved from the condemnation?

English translations are incorrect. The phrase in the ancient Greek text of John should be properly translated “every one that is loyal/faithful TO Him”; NOT “whoever believes in Him”. Millions (billions?) of people have been misled for hundreds of years into thinking they are “saved” because of terrible English translations. Faithfulness/loyalty is what God wants from us, not the “easy believeism” the churches promote.

And John 3:36.

When did Jesus change His mind?

I'm counting on permanent.

Excellent observation. How many times did the Savior Jesus say, "the one who endures to the end will be saved,"?

Mine was permanent from the day I was created..................PERIOD!!!!


But of course it depends on your definition of salvation. That word is the feminine derivative of the word Saviour or deliverer. Nothing more, nothing less. All other definitions applied are man's/religions interpretation. It is used to create fear so one will follow whatever course religion says to follow. All negative shadowy entities use fear to control and manipulate the masses. Works quite well.

When you read John 3:16 keep reading through 21. You will find out where your condemnation comes from. Deeds (works) that come from seeing the light.
21. '' but he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his deeds (works) may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

While I may agree with many of your posts, this is one I believe you have missed the mark, i.e. sinned. This teaching is what religion wants you to believe, I see this totally different than that.

Born of water (BE) = Biological Entity
Born of Spirit (IS) = Immortal Spirit

IS-BE is what most of us are. The other entities are BE-BE.

Remove the IS (Immortal Spirit) from a human being (Biological Entity) and you have a controllable Clone or the modern term Transhuman.
This is what the enemy knows and we don't. They are here to steal your Spirit in any way they can, hence the reason for mRNA shots that destroy one branch of the DNA strand which is known as the IS (immortal spirit).

For those that think that one can lose their salvation, a question. How many sins does it take?

My salvation is not temporary. I cannot lose my salvation. I can, however, reject Jesus Christ with my heart and my actions at any point of my journey. To live an apostate life contrary to His truth is not saved nor safe.

Isaiah 1:18-19 and John 15:13-14 go hand in hand. You must believe and obey.

Faith is not intellectual assent or verbal acquiescence alone. Faith is belief so strong it demands obedience. Faith without works is dead.

Ephesians 5:3-7 sheds light on who has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. It names all manner of sins and sinners.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 also gives a detailed list of sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8 gives yet another detailed list of people going to hell for their sins.

The people listed are lost even if professing Christ, even if they are baptized. Too many people are teaching that no one claiming Christ will die lost. That’s untrue. If you claim Christ with your mouth and hell with your life, He will judge accordingly.

Matthew 7:15-23 is spoken for the church. Notice Jesus said many will come professing Him and He will deny having ever known them. Jesus said this. He knows more than all of us.

To tell people that no sin they ever commit will lead to damnation is treacherous, especially considering Scripture clearly spells out the exact opposite.

I love Jesus Christ! He is the Lord of my life! I don’t believe He will ever discard me for a mistake. But He will judge me according to His Word if I reject Him and live in rebellion and apostasy.

Rebellion and apostasy will be judged, even if that person professes Christ.

I hope no one reading this will ever stand before God having lived a life He said is damned just because you found someone that told you otherwise.

I’m afraid for all of the false doctrine used to soothe people the Holy Spirit is trying to convict.

May we all be found worthy at His appearing.

What about this: “Whoever believes and is baptized has life, and whoever does not believe is condemned.” ... Anyone who believes me and is baptized will be saved

Im not saying one has to be baptized in water. Some being tempered by fire.

John 3:36

John the Baptist's primary message:
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Jesus message of salvation to the Pharisee:
"18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

I’ve read here that acts don’t matter.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

The law was added to demonstrate man’s inability to do.

Faith is not a strong belief. If it is a strong belief it is a trusting in ones ability or power to believe making faith a work. Paul clearly teaches that faith is a gift. It is not an internal power but rather a gift which focuses on the One who promises rather than one's self.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 gives great insight into the law and who lives under it.

Many people today claim freedom from the law as the justification of their error, when actually their error keeps them under the law.

those Jews tell a good story don't they?

Ruger4life,

Are you a native Greek or grow up in a Greek speaking country with modern Greek your native toungue?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” (John 6:53–55)

Do you eat his flesh and drink his blood?

Yes they do and have merrily led good folks off the path.
It would appear to me that we have forgotten true History and now believe a lie.
The one they refer to as the Savior has told them countless times who the true Jews are and who the imposters are but religion leads good folks down a primrose path giving them the feeling that they are doing right.


The End will not be for every one.

I'm washed in the blood of Jesus .
That is God's covenant, and, last I heard, He keeps His word.

Amen!

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Hebrews 9

I like to hear peoples' testimonies of when and how they were saved. Feel free to share that if you want to.

Saved from what?

Hamper Crapper = Charlatan

I’m GTG.

Totally saved, dieing some day just like y’all, and either rotting in a box, (no offense if that’s your choice), or dust in the wind. Yanno, like in the Big Lebowski! 😂🤣

Excellent question.


Saved from sin and it's wages... eternal consequence.

Everlasting spiritual death
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Roman s 6:23

The spiritually dead suffer torments.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now you can see from the first verse I mentioned,

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Roman s 6:23

We deserve to go to hell.
God loves us, so He gave Jesus His only begotten Son to take our place. He suffered enough so that anyone who DECIDES to go to heaven through HIM will be saved from suffering forever.
It takes you changing your mind and realizing that you can't add anything to the salvation by good works. What we could add amounts to a few filthy rags compared to Jesus' torments. The decision involves making Him the object of our trust/ faith/believe .

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

To make it very simple, there's a prayer to receive this gift located at the end of the links below. PM anytime or if you (or others) decide to make that decision.

Some of you true believers should attend a baby raper's sentencing hearing or parole plea. There is plenty of repentance at those events and plenty of truly stupid people that buy into pleas for mercy and understanding.

How forgiving and merciful would you be if your 3 year old child was molested multiple times and their life ruined.

There are some truly sanctimonious folks on here with very limited exposure to the real world.

PTL, amen


mike r

Same here. According to a lot of folks here I’m destined to spend eternity burning in a lake of fire while some last minute born again child rapists enjoy the streets of gold in heaven.

Told the family if they feel like it spread my ashes on the mountain, if not, throw em in the dumpster behind the shop. DGAF either way to be honest.

Tag

I do not think that God wants people to be unsure about their salvation. John 3:16 is the Gospel in a nutshell. It’s a pledge...a ‘title deed’...concerning people’s salvation. Period. No ‘if’s’ or ‘and’s’ or ‘but’s.’

John did say that he had “written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe in the name of the Son of God.”

All of us must stand in judgment before God...our sins will either be covered by the Blood of the Atonement...or they won’t.

Who the fug could believe that kind of shît story? How could anyone with a brain believe that?

Dead is dead.

Ask Roy when ya get there. 😉

Medieval.

Stophel,

Since you didn't get any takers yet, I'll give you the Bible answer instead.

For an unbeliever, they are already condemned by
One single sin following an age which God holds them accountable.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

I don't believe that anyone here is perfect.

He said,
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned by the fact that their faith in Jesus is not the sole Object of their faith. Their trust is also in their ability to keep the law.
Unfortunately, they think that "whosoever believeth on Him" is on probation until they die.

I made the case, as did Pastor Arnold, that everlasting life is a GIFT that can Not be earned by good behavior. Nor can that life be forfeited by the fantasy that they will not longer sin.
It might be worth it for those who are holding onto God somehow, to let go and trust Him to hold onto them.

What do you think Stophel?

As good as the last check the Catholic Diocese cashes, I guess.

I'm buying my way in.

Baptism is not mentioned every time along with salvation in the New Testament. However, it in paired with believing often enough that God must have thought it was pretty important. Plenty like to discard it as unimportant. Not sure I want to take that chance. It is only a dunking in water at worst.

HC is a flaky pervert, who is full of sheit.

Condemnation for the mere condition of a lack of conviction is petty and childish.

My relatives and many friends/aquaintences are Roman Catholic and I love them dearly. I just lost another cousin unexpectedly, so I can't think of any topic more important.

Let me know what you think when you get a chance to watch my posts. I have one that was deleted by YT that I need to find. It was recorded in a parochial school.

My salvation can be undone when the work of Jesus is undone. It wasn't me that accomplished my salvation. Is there anyone that can take it from Christ?

It ain't, "Rock of Ages", for nothing.

H/C: Do you think Roman Catholics receive salvation?

I have yet to hear anyone really give any kind of explanation of how they can lose their salvation. One sin? Ten sins? A hundred sins? Does it matter which kind of sins?

The appearance of one "losing his salvation" is quite readily explained by the Lord Himself in the parable of the sower, Matthew 13:20-21. Only seed that takes root in good ground grows and endures.

I think many people, Christian and otherwise, don't have any concept of what Biblical salvation actually is. Many people, Christian and otherwise, actively HATE what the Bible says about salvation. It doesn't fit with what they want. It hurts their feelings. It's not inclusive enough. It's not what they would do if they were god. It doesn't seem "fair" to them.

Well, I am glad that God's salvation does not rest upon what is "fair". I am glad that salvation does not rest on my perfection.


"Then came the jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:24-30


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

It's really not hard to find Biblical passages that say the same sorts of things. It's pretty plain. When people begin with the "well, what that REALLY means..." type of stuff, you know that they are not disagreeing with it from a Biblical standpoint. They are disagreeing with it because they simply don't like it. And there's a lot of people that don't like it.

I was baptized at 13. The pastor that performed the baptism later was found to be fugking a woman in the congregation while supposedly giving her marital counseling. Within a year, our youth minister was caught banging a church member while his wife died of cancer, snd the head deacon was exposed to be having an affair.

I don’t believe you can make a biblical case for your statement.

I think you’ve not got the right idea…..trying to keep it real simple…you have a relationship with your Creator or you don’t.

If you don’t want a relationship with God, tragic, but that is your choice …..No relationship with God before your death…no relationship after your death. No relationship with the Creator for “eternity.”

That sucks, but not sure what it has to do with baptism.

I have heard enough Catholic sermons and Roman Catholic friends bring this up that I have given it enough thought to read what Jesus said in those gospels He teaches on the subject.

Please look with me at the wonderful teaching you mentioned here from Jesus. To see what He is talking about, let's go back a few more verses.

"47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

First note the topic he initiates.
" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Q: What is the requirement for everlasting life?
A:. The same one He told Nicodemus?
St. John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here as elsewhere, He gives the literal...."believeth in him." AND
"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

That's very clear. Faith/ believe in Jesus for the gift of everlasting life.

Now Jesus gives the figurative (sometimes called type).

51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Q;. Was Jesus a loaf of bread? Was He a plate of wafers.... literally?
A:. Of course not. These were reminders given as common symbols. The "51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven..." is Jesus. He mentioned the manna that came down from heaven as the old testament symbol to Moses's people. The Pharisees were reminded of this from Exodus.
Then He says that He is this bread. What kind of good works does sitting down for bread and wine take? None. It is eating. We are to be reminded that it's not our own works, it is His death that paid for all sins.
Does this sound like it takes work to believe?
No. It's as easy as eating, because He is the bread of life, just as the woman at the well was told that He is the water of life.
He was not a literal cup of water. It takes no effort to drink either.
Likewise, Jesus is the Door to the sheepfold.
Salvation is as simple as walking through a door. Jesus is the only way to heaven. You must believe what?

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Do you believe this?

Of course.
I did as those I've led to Christ's way of salvation.
The whole classroom admitted this too.

It's late, but I'll see if I can find it tonight if you want to watch it.

Ya have to love how you turn simple words into some form of a religion. Sin, a Greek Archery term, to miss the mark. it can also mean to be mistaken, to err, exactly what religious teachings are doing.
Hell, a word that originally was Hebrew and meant: a gorge. But as the Greek were using it.......... This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. ............ loosely translated from the Greek it can mean "Grave", but nothing more.

Death: another word that's meaning is exactly that. Death, something that happens when you die, the end of life.

Your use of the words spiritually dead are being manipulated, something religion loves to do to lead its followers down a primrose path.
So the end of life (death) and Hell (a valley or the grave) are cast into the lake of fire and you think that is bad?? It simply means there will be no more end of lives nor graves since end of life will no longer exist.
So who was not written in the book of life? It's an easy answer and probably not the one you were programmed to believe.

Begotten son, someone God gave birth to. Begotten: alone (without a companion), but from its original word it simply means; to remain, abide in reference to place to sojourn, tarry not to depart to continue to be present to be held, kept, continually, to remain as one, not to become another or different.

Jesus is someone I'm very well acquainted with. I've known and followed His teachings for a lot of years now. So here is something to ponder on. One of the things Jesus taught me was that He and I are sons of God equally. He and I are sons of men equally.

There's no limit to God's forgiveness so there's no limit to how often you can sin and still be forgiven. I can see only 2 ways to lose it. One is to reject Christ, to turn your back on him and tell him to be gone. The other is committing the unforgivable sin - calling the Holy Spirit evil. I can't see any true Christian doing either, though.

And are you sure that verse 47 is saying what you've been told it is saying.

You sound like a pastor.
What denomination do you belong to?

So, you can live your life on earth committing the same sins over and over again and expect salvation as long as you believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, born ofvtge Virgin Mary and died to atone for our sins and declare with our mouths that we believe in Him?

K22: Be careful, very careful. You are suggesting that you are critically studying the word. Not to be done.

As the Lord’s servant, you must not quarrel. You must be kind toward all,

“Turn away from your sins, because the Kingdom of heaven is near!”

Some scriptures say to believe, some say to believe and repent and be baptized (is that just a public declaration, because you dont have to go under the water).

Bible thumpers.

Now, RC and Happy, what about this scripture


“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I repeat,

the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Think for yourself. Jesus didn't cancel the Old Testament, he endorsed it. God does not change. Read Jesus' teachings, be careful when someone starts clarifying them. Jesus had over 3 years to say what he needed to say. If something doesn't agree with Jesus forget it.

It does say that. But, it also says this:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Jesus also told the woman caught in adultery to 'sin no more'.
Yes, we'll be forgiven but Jesus expects us to strive to avoid sinning. He knows we'll fail but he wants us to do our best to avoid it.

+1

DF

It sounds like you are quoting Matthew 7:21?

I'll look that up to get the rest.

Yep, that's a sad scripture. So many know the Book, just don't know the Author....

And they're deceived, thinking they're doing good for the Lord, expept He didn't (doesn't) know them.

It's hard to read that without feeling their anguish.

DF

^^^^^
This

Since so many of the sins mentioned in this thread are of a sexual nature, I'll throw this out.
Are sexual sins more serious than non-sexual ones?

Check out this passage:
1Cor 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, BUT the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

It seems to say that sexual sin is more serious because it's against the Holy Spirit. Remember that the only unforgivable in is one against the Spirit. You don't mess with the Holy Spirit. That word 'but' is big. It changes the message of this passage from a sin against the Lord to one against the Spirit.

Here it is Jaguar.

Matthew 7

I always look to see who it's addressing because it makes a difference if Jesus is talking to born again believers or rebuking the devil, for instance.

"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

It sounds like someone I just asked if he was a pastor.
Jesus addresses the people about false prophets here that are not his sheep.
Jaguar, we know that they are unbelievers from the get go.

Then we get to your verse.

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Jesus will hear their appeals of WHY THEY think they are deserving of salvation. Here's the list.

A. "saith unto me, Lord, Lord"
Many say they made Jesus"Lord of their lives", but that is not God's way of salvation.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
God the Father made His Son Lord. Every preacher on TV would tell people something like "make Jesus Lord of your life and submit to His Lordship...." Or something like that.
Rejected by Christ

B. " have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name "
That is what I have read and heard many times. How many preachers have you heard give some new prophecy about some politicians or world events, all in the name of the Lord.
There's the warning and curse to them found at the end of Revelation. I'll let you look that up since I'm very tired right now....last couple verses.

C. "and in thy name have cast out devils?"
They could've been anyone who was from the sons of Sceva to Rosemary's baby. I've seen a video of all kinds of Demon possession in Africa and the pastor's had a false gospel.
There are those who cast them out, but not saved. I listen to the gospel message and that's the only way Jesus accepts
. He doesn't care if the person is an apostle of the apastolics or RCs. That never was the will of the Father for entry into heaven.

D. "and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Do good works save anyone Jaguar? I think you know that they don't.
CORRECT ANSWER IS:
Titus 3:5. " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."

Ephesians 2:8,9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see what they were trusting in?
Their good works.
The same can be said for "repenting of your sins" or baptism....good works.....Not acceptable to Jesus or the Father.

I hope you are still with me.
I'm about done.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

What is the will of the Father for our salvation?

Jesus said,
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."


So what is the Father's will to be saved?
The way we see Jesus today is by reading the Bible about Him.
He is the rising Savior, the Christ, the Son of God.
(Details in links below)

It's midnight in my time zone and I'm zoned out. 😴
PM for discussion, questions etc and I will be there tomorrow.
Have a good night my friend.

HC

Instead of eating a dick, can you try to suck start a 12 gauge? Maybe use your big toe if your arms aren’t long enough.

It's basic morality. We as human beings can see that condemning someone to death or torment on the basis of lack of conviction as excessive and morally and ethically unsound. We don't kill people over what they don't believe. Do we show a greater tolerance toward those of other beliefs or lack of conviction than God? Are we more reasonable than God?

So, you simply regurgitate your previous thesis …. Ok…why do you ….apparently…. believe that “we don’t kill people over what they don’t believe? Look around… what do you see in the world? I suspect you are blinded. Surely you are that unaware….. well, maybe you are….

Further, why do you believe that ….apparently….that Jesus….would condemn someone for a “lack of conviction?” I don’t see anything in the Bible that says that people are condemned for having a “lack of conviction.” You are just making this stuff up.

Btw…. When you stand before your Creator, you will have “no excuse.”

Like I said….

If one does not want a relationship with his Creator, that is tragic.

No relationship with God…before your death….. then no relationship with God after your death….. and no relationship for “eternity.”

I believe in Free Will. I believe God does everything he can to lead us to Redemption. However, we do have it in our power to screw up. There is one sin that cannot be forgiven and that is the willful denial of God. It results in . . . well, what the non-believers think of as Death. The lights go out and then nothing. Damnation is the eternal separation from God.

Well said. Those who think they can "do good" themselves into heaven diminish the finished work of the cross and God's grace toward a sinful and depraved mankind.

Sorry! my bad.



I'm more interested in the Truth, this is what I want to know, not some tradition of men, i.e. religion.

And by what authority do you accuse me of being a false prophet?
I certainly did not come to you in sheep's clothing, just the opposite actually.

But, by all means, do good works.

That isn't what's called the unforgivable sin. That one is calling the Holy Spirit evil. It comes from Mark 3, 22-30. Verse 30 plainly calls it. Note though, in v.29, that Jesus calls it AN eternal sin, not THE eternal sin. That leaves room for more than one. Denying Christ can be another one but it's not the one normally called the unforgivable sin. It's also found in Mathew 12:31-32 but the one in Mark has that defining verse 30.

That word blaspheme is hard to pin down for a meaning. It's used in many different ways. In general, though, it usually means 'in place of' or 'against'. In this case, it would mean 'Satan being named in place of the Holy Spirit'.

Mark 3:
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "by the prince of demons he casts out the demons."
23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.
27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
28 "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" — 
30 for they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

I will add that if you have no desire for good works you need to go back and get the full dose of what God intended you to have in the first place. A heart that desires to please him and do his will are signs of a true conversion.

The book of James is aimed at telling believers to do good works to make their beliefs come alive. It's for believers, not for telling non-believers that they can be saved by works. It's often misinterpreted that way.

The good news of my Lord Jesus Christ really offends you.
Perhaps my Father will care to effect your life in such a way that you will not consider it coincidence, so you will consider Christ..... perhaps not.
I will ask.

If you keep inviting that demon to crawl back into you, he might eventually tell YOU to do just that.

Pray in one hand, ScHit in the other one...see which one fills up faster.

Unlike you, I don't go in my hand and fling it like a monkey.
I already asked my Father for something and He heard me.

No one is implying that works are not a fruit of the Christian life. Works do nothing to save, keep saved or make a person more holy righteous.

Scripture teaches that the Law does not bring righteousness. That doesn’t change because we are Christians.

If good works that a Christian does are no different than what a good moral non believer can do what makes them good?

If our salvation is dependent upon our good works Christ’s death was needless.

Abraham, as the father of all in the faith, was declared righteous because he believed God’s promise. Declared righteous not righteous. Paul demonstrates that it is the same for us as believers. Romans and Galatians.

Now that is an excellent question.

Now to hear the answer..................

This seems very appropriate in this thread...............

Great post and thank you and may God bless you for it, HC.

Well said. While God gave us free will, HE did tell us to choose the narrow path and walk it, not just know of it.

He said for us to work out our own salvation. That means believing there is power in the word and the word is Jesus.

We are in control of our salvation. We are in control of whether our name is written in the Lambs Book of Life (with no sin listed on our page) or if we have chosen not to partake of Christ's cleansing blood or if our sins are listed and we face the White Throne of Judgement.

Damn Jack, that is one wild church

#Poundathon

There are a lot of bubbas in prison. There will be many in hell.

Did ISLO say anything?

Only if they don't ask the Lord for forgiveness and become believers in their hearts


Only two can see into a heart

In a word, forever.

Salvation??It is so easy that you do not need to quote a multitude of passages from the Bible.You either believe Christ is your Savior or you don`t.Its like a bunch of old hens here, clucking over trivial matters.Blah,blah,blah,yada,yada,yada.

You don't think James the brother of Jesus might have written that to straighten out the hogwash that Paul was spewing? And then Jesus praised the church at Ephesus for expelling Paul. Then Paul bemoans his expulsion in his letter to Timothy thus verifying Jesus' message in Revelation 2.

Wide is the gate and broad is the road. If something seems too easy it might be a lie. Especially when a dissatisfied deck hand starts countermanding the ship captains orders.

Huh? Jesus was long gone before there was a church in Ephesis. Paul founded it. He started in the local synagog which had been there for centuries and he started preaching Jesus. He got a great response. Paul was hand picked by Jesus to spread the word to the Gentiles. Are you naive enough to think that Jesus wouldn't know what Paul would turn out to be? He picked Paul for a reason and Paul did Jesus's bidding. He taught the truth as taught to him by the Lord and many don't like to hear the truth.

The so called expulsion was years later when the church was back sliding. The false teachers, the gnostics, were getting the upper hand and turning the church away from Jesus. So no, James wasn't preaching against Paul. He was preaching to those who were trying to slide along in their salvation without working to better the church.

It is sort of strange that Paul's instructions and calling from Jesus was not public and Jesus forgot to tell us he was sending someone to amend his teachings. Paul seems a nut case. Don't swallow a camel while trying to reconcile Paul and Jesus.

Paul didn't amend anything Jesus taught. Jesus preached to the Jews who were under the law. He sent Paul to the Gentiles who were not under the law. The basic message of salvation by faith is the same but the approach is very different.

''There is no coming to consciousness without pain'' said Carl Jung. A false belief such as taught by Paul can be awfully hard to turn loose of. I know, I had to after examining him vs. Jesus. It is sort of like but way worse than having to admit you have made a bad investment. I've had to admit that occasionally also.

It seems that some of you hold to works and laws as a way of being more holy, acceptable, righteous.

Do you imagine that you will stand before God and give a glowing account of those good things that you have done? What if you do 49 of 50 things but miss that last one?

If the salvation of Mankind required Christ’s death that would be considered the greatest price to accomplish that salvation. If that greatest price is what accomplished the gift of Life through Christ how in the world will your miserable world keep you saved, in fellowship, from backsliding?

Salvation is from outside us to us. Not within us. It is a free gift. If we rely on our actions to keep us where we need to be we might as well live like there is no tomorrow because we are already in hell. No man can make the cut.

K22.

Have you read much C S Lewis? I find him to be pretty much on target. None of the superstitious hyper spiritual junk with him.

Surely only God knows, but I'm a simple man.

I think it fits very well in to what our society has come to due to this virus and the fear of it too.

Yes I have. The whole family has read all of his writings.
Many times we read about someone saying something or writing something that is quite profound and futuristic, so I often ask myself, who was this person..........really.
The answer for me...............more than likely one of the Majestic 12.


“These will not fight, I think.”
“and I don't think we can do anything for him. It only makes him worse if you try to be nice to him.”

“Too much magic about here.

Except now, its not peoples fear keeping them home from work, its satans minion in the WH and satans Faukki and satans CDC firing them for not taking the vipers venom.

Should they then just take the vax and maybe die and go to heaven, depending on His saying the vipers bite will not harm them, referring to their salvation?

Fear is what is keeping people at home. Fear of being arrested, fear of the mandates, ect.


Do you go to Heaven if you take the "Mark" ?

https://twitter.com/paulrnelson74/status/1442492698481635329

Unfortunately, Lewis didn't write that. It's a badly twisted excerpt from the Screwtape Letters. He never wrote anything titled 'An Old Devils Letters to the Young'.

There is nothing "trivial" about ANY part of the Word of God.

Salvation is a process, not a one-time event. Salvation is in degrees, not necessarily all-or-nothing. We will each receive our reward according to our merits. Some will get more than others.
https://apologeticessay.wordpress.c...tion-its-a-process-not-a-one-time-event/

People who knew much more than you included the letters of Paul in the Bible because they knew them to be true.

Peter recognized the validity of Paul's teachings and their harmony with those of Christ.

Is salvation everlasting life, or the position you get in heaven after salvation?

Salvation was instantaneous for me.

But , a number of times didn’t Jesus say “…. Your faith has saved you…” Like Luke 7:50….? He didn’t say “go start your process of salvation.”

So you believe the CIA (snopes) or Fact Check which is owned by Reuters.

Jesus to Ananias in a vision: Ac 9:16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

One of Paul's sufferings was seeing the words given to him by the HS rejected by false teachers. It's still going on today.

I'm glad you're happy with picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to believe. I don't have that luxury because I believe every last word of the Bible is God breathed and totally true. There are parts I don't understand and translation problems are always present, but the words are true nonetheless. If you're reading Carl Jung, I can see why you have problems believing in the Lord. Jung's teachings in many way parallel the gnostics who Paul fought long and hard during his lifetime.

Tyrone: More like people with an agenda included Paul's writings. And I'll not believe Peter endorsed the letters of Paul that are included in the bible. There is no indication that Peter ever read those screeds attributed to Paul. And 2nd Peter 3:15-16 are obvious additions to Peter's writing by a 3rd party.

I believe that from the moment someone truly believes that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that God has raised Him from the dead, that they receive salvation. And that the only condition to receiving it is truly believing and truly accepting it. And that good works are not required to merit, maintain, or prove it. But they are part of following Jesus. I believe salvation to be eternal, regardless of future actions...including sins, unbelief, and even apostasy...though believers who do these things will face God’s admonishment. To me, the extension of God’s grace is wholly done by Him alone and we have no part in it beyond truly believing and truly receiving it.

Of course not. You are either going to Heaven or Hell. But there are levels of the Heavenly beatific vision. For instance, it highly unlikely that you or I are going to have the same level of closeness to God as say, John the Baptist. I illustrate it as being at a concert. Yes, everyone in the building is "at the concert" but some people have the cheap seats, some front row and the fortunate few get backstage passes.

That's why Paul tells us to keep running the race. If you aim for just the minimum, you will invariably fall short.

I'm not regurgitating anything. Making the accusation is your means of defense.

You really do know that killing someone over their lack of conviction is an intolerant, immoral act. The act of an intolerant despot, a dictator.

I wouldnt do it. Would you?

Peter and Paul knew each other quite well. They spent a lot of time in the same city, Rome. They conversed often. What verse did you find where Peter condemns Paul?


That stuff about having an agenda is a real headscratcher. Exactly what agenda are you referring to?

Yep, I pretty much agree with your clarification….. Good.

Like I said…. You regurgitate and again avoid the real issue……so, I will ask it again …. Your implication is ….apparently….that God kills “someone over their lack of conviction.” This is just pure heresy….. and you don’t even see that.

So, what’s your answer? A cogent response or just more mind vomit?

What sect excludes Paul from the Bible?

And once again I point out that your accusation of 'regurgitation' is your means of defense.

Lack of conviction means not having faith in Jesus. And what is the penalty of not having faith in Jesus or believing in the reality of the bible god?

Is the atheist forgiven and granted salvation?

You understand that atheists are justified by absence of evidence, and if evidence for the existence of a God or gods comes to light, they would be convinced.

What then? Not to late for salvation once presented with the reality of God?

HE doesnt want you to get evidence. HE wants you to have faith. Your evidence will come too late, like a smoker who coughs up blood one day.

If God gave evidence, all would do as He says from a point of fear of Hell. He wants us to follow Him and put our desires behind our love for Him, as he did us by giving us Jesus who He loved.

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🎤

Salvation comes as a flash. You are or you aren't and the difference is the moment you accept Jesus as Lord. Once you're saved, however, what you become in God's heaven is a process. You will be rewarded for your efforts and those can take a long time to develop.

What? Are you capable of communicating like a human? I think it's far more accurate to say that people like you offend him.

Hank Williams, 'Lord, build me a cabin in the corner Glory Land."

The only agenda that I know of concerning Paul is that of the Pharisees and Sadducees undermining his gospel back then as many the Messianic Jews /Hebrew Roots Movement does these days. Paul was the outspoken zealot among the apostles IMHO. I think that the devil focussed on him more because Paul was so effective spreading the great commission.

Paul's gospel:
Galatians 1 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-7

Up until YOUR buddy bubbaJ once again as usual started telling me to do what he is fixated on most all of us were talking quite humanely and decently.
Then he adds that he wants me to commit suicide.

That was not called for unless he either,
A. Is demon possessed and has a demon that hates the good news of my Savior.

OR

B. He is a discusting excuse for a man.

BuckHaggard,
Why do you defend that wicked gremlin?

You are correct, Sir. Only God knows.

Only God knows if our intentions were genuine if and when we accepted the Lord, Jesus Christ, as our Lord and Savior and also that God raised Him from the dead..

He alone can see what is in our hearts, and if it is pure and true He will give us salvation. Neither will He remove it ever, as God does not lie.

Lemmings

Well, where to start? First, a lack of conviction does not equate to not having faith in Jesus. A lack of conviction is simply not being of acceptance of the truth about something. Where is the problem if one is not “convicted” of the truth about Jesus? The man “chooses” to reject the truth…he does not accept Jesus. The man rejects the truth. We see this all the time, not only in religion but also in our culture. The man prefers prideful, sweet sounding lies to the reality of truth.

You are also wrong about atheists being justified by absence of evidence. This is simply wishful thinking and a childish hope for a “Get out of jail free card.” Won’t work…..Totally wrong. Men choose which way they go and they choose what to believe. God does the calling…. God presents Himself. The man has no excuse. The man can willfully reject the Son and willfully reject the gift of salvation. Judas knew exactly who Jesus was and yet never accepted the Savior. Yes, he “regretted” but he did not repent and seek the gift. There are many examples in the Bible of those who knew who God was and yet rejected Him.

It is interesting that you state that an an atheist is “justified by absence of evidence.” This is simply your own personal opinion and with this statement you also presume to know how God will judge.

Also, I don’t believe for a moment that you don’t believe in “God.” You are just in rebellion of God…. The One who loves you. This may change for you, I hope it does.

Like I said…. Reject God and have no relationship with Him before death and there will be no relationship with Him after death…. No relationship for “eternity.”

Why are you obsessed with rejecting the writings of Paul? Are you a gnostic?

Direct one to one translation and picking random definitions isn't a good way to translate according to the brilliant translators of the KJ Bible. Even the linguists and translators I know have agreed as it applies to any translation.

The 400 year Bible in our language often defines key words.
I never turned simple words into religion.
I'm the first to tell you and anyone who will listen that religion has NOTHING to do with salvation. I shared something with Jaguar and apparently you don't agree. OK. I won't lose any sleep over that. You gave a list of problems you have with certain words, starting with sin.
I don't even have to go to a koine Greek dictionary.
James defines sin very well.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

He was referencing Carl Jung. That's as close to gnosticism as we get today.

So James says! And that Book was renamed or placed in the Bible by request of King James. What James says or doesn't say will not cause me to loose much sleep either.
My salvation belief has nothing to do with the Vatican/Protestant teachings. I am quite aware of where those teachings originated from and I'll have nothing to do with them. You all can continue on with those teachings for as long as you like in my opinion, but I would be most cautious where those teachings originated from. Fear is not what Jesus taught. Just sayin'.

My problem with certain words that you use is that a whole religion was built around those words when in fact, those words spoke truth, but not how you and religion use them.



Like you, I lose zero sleep over peoples beliefs, in fact, I'm not certain why I even bothered to make multiple posts in this thread. A bit abnormal for me. I'm sure Jag would agree. I've read here in this thread to know that I would not follow what most have said. While there is a line of truth in those "teachings" there is also enough falsehood to make them null and void.

Those ol' Nazi, I mean Ashkenazi and Khazar Jews are masters of deceit.

Are you a follower of Charles Russell aka Jehovah's Witnesses?

Carl Jung, the father of modern psychology?
He was gnostic and spoke about an entity named Philemon.

The other "gnostics" I think are those self professed that spent some years in a college with a department of philosophy and religious studies.

Yeah, him. I can understand why a follower of Jung is anti-Paul. Paul wrote long and pointed about the gnostics.

It's not difficult to grasp. Faith is a conviction of truth. Those who have Christian faith believe in the reality of God and Jesus. Believing in Jesus is a conviction of truth, which is a belief.

A belief and a conviction of truth is one and the same principle. Faith is a conviction of truth, which is a belief.....in this instance a conviction/belief held without verifiable evidence.



You got it.




Wrong. Justification requires evidence. Without evidence you have faith.

This was understood a long time ago.


"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693


"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as a useful tool." - Seneca

A person of reason considers the evidence and forms convictions based on the weight of evidence. And once again, if evidence for the existence of a God or gods comes to light, reason demands a conviction in their existence.

To condemn someone for exercising reason is an grave injustice.

Not hardly.
Jehovah Witnesses's is a religion.
Putting me in a box with a label is not wise. I prefer thinking outside the box.

You're right. It is a "religion" and just that. Some would say it's a cult.

Well, you are still wrong. To close, the opinions you espouse….. and your opinion is that the evidence does not exist. You are wrong on that. The evidence exists, but you discount it. You have blinders on.

Nobody is condemned for exercising reason. Condemnation comes from rejecting God.

In fact, clear thinking and unpolluted reasoning brings one straight to God.

You also have muddled thoughts on ”faith.” Faith is indeed based on evidence….and experience….but you are not “convinced” and are simply rejecting the evidence to suit your own twisted views.

You interpret any verse not as a stand-alone but by context and the whole of all scripture.

I would agree with Chisos. Two things required before before one can jump on board with this saving stuff. Think very carefully what verse 5 is saying. Verse 16 uses the word (according to the HUMAN writers) begotten. It is also indicates that if you are not born of water (human womb) and if you are not born with a Spirit you don't make the grade.
Some are not born from a womb, while others are not born with a spirit
God may have loved the World, just not everybody in it.

Many verses are stand alone and should be taken that way. Some can be read as context.

All religious beliefs are cults by the very definition not just Jehovah Witnesses's.
Find the root of Christianity and there you will find your answers.

Church history, paganism and humanism has tainted much of so called Christianity, but God still has truth out there for those He gives it to.

Satan has been at war with Christianity since the beginning. He's infiltrated many churches to turn them from the true word. Look at the centuries of war in Europe as an example. Catholics vs Protestants. Neither side has been Christian or they wouldn't have done the evil things they've done. You don't turn a man to the Lord by tearing his arms off on the rack or burning him at the stake. You don't save a town for the Lord by killing the people and burning it down. You don't bring a man to salvation by drawing and quartering him. All Satan's work.

I would not trust any history coming from the church. The idea of church/religion is to keep you inside the building. The last part of your statement is true.

Thank you RC,


I shake my head at those that proclaim this country was started by people with solid Judeo/Christian virtues, when if the truth was known I question whether most would even associate with them.

In July 1692 my 9th Great Grandmother was '...hung by the neck until dead and thrown in a ditch to rot...' by these 'bastions' of Christian principles...............

Sir, what is “the root of Christianity” in your estimation...?

Isaiah 53:2

CORRECT! ☕ 🙂 👍
So this special passage you reference goes out to ALL THE READERS:
"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Question: How can a man "obey the gospel?"
"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Answer:. BELIEVE that gospel.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep."
I Corinthians 15

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."
Acts 16:30...

Saved from the same hell that Jesus warned about.
Saved from the same hell that some mock.
Saved from everlasting torment to be given the free gift from God that Jesus paid in full. It can ONLY be received by faith/believing in the True ROOT of Christianity.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8...

No good works of baptism, giving up of sins, turning over a new leaf, treating people with kindness, etc are acceptable with God. His ONLY acceptable payment was the torments and bloody death of His only begotten Son. The gift of everlasting life has already been paid for. Anyone who tries to add their paltry payment of good deeds is insulting the God of the universe. That's why it takes a non work faith in that which was already done by Him. That is true undeserved kindness.

Do you believe this?
See links below for a special prayer to receive that free gift.

God bless everyone who considers this.
V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V

I like Thomas Jefferson's conclusion concerning the NT. Enough so that I have a copy of his Bible.
The posts saying: well Paul said this and John said that, ect. is one of the reasons Jefferson wrote his own Bible. Technically, he didn't rewrite the NT, but got rid of all the BS of much of NT writers. Seems he was skeptical of them also.


So Antlers, what would be the root, who were the originators, and what is their lineage?

Hint, go back to the era of Moses and the Red Sea and take a look at all the characters on both sides of the story. Look at the history of their lineage and where they went after the Red Sea story. Probably won't find it any of the take offs of the KJV.

Again, I’m interested in what you think “the root of Christianity” is...?

For me, “the root of Christianity” is the resurrection of Jesus. That single event...and all that it entails...is the compelling basis for my personal belief. The original version of Christianity is rooted in Jesus’ resurrection; it was at the very center of the first-century apologetic. Christianity began with people who saw something...Christianity began when Jesus rose from the dead, and those who were closest to Him recognized that He was who He claimed to be.

One word that has a lot of ancient paths within its origin. Rome.

How bout a Permethrin saved my hunt thread?

I'm an evangelist for that church.

Agreed!

There are no "roots" as such. Only God, and that's much more than enough.

Christianity started right after the Garden. It was God's plan.

The Old Testament laid the groundwork for Christianity in so many ways and is full of stories that are repeated in the NT and will be fulfilled in Revelation.

No sects, some cults. Illinformed ones.

I didn't offer my opinion. I pointed to accepted definitions of words and references, and to the injustice of condemnation based on a lack of conviction. In this instance, not being convinced/believing in supernatural bible stories, God, salvation, etc, simply because that's what the gospels say.

Requiring convicing evidence that supports extraordinary claims is not a punishable crime. It's basic practice in everyday life, except it seems when it comes to religion and faith.

Faith is easy, determining the truth is the difficult part.

A preacher who believed in a lifetime of probation works asked me, "Do you believe in once saved always saved?"

I looked him in the eye and said, I believe what Jesus promised.
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I asked how long he thought that lasts?

Crickets

Hey guys I have an idea. Lets make it so the Bible is portrayed as a big lie then take it out of every day life everywhere in our nation and all will be rainbows and roses. Oh but then someone beat me to that, the liberals and not just the ones in our government. Working out very well, isn't it.

U be gay.

Only God can heal our land and protect the rights that He alone provided. When american christians turned over their children to be raised for 8 hours a day, they found out that the liberals influenced that beloved generation. A few cycles of that and the liberal communist goals are met. They are equivalent to what religion?

A joyful noise.

No thanks but go for it if that's the way you lean.

https://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/marx.htm

A concept lost on most of western Christianity.

I don't see the bible as a lie. More an expression of what people believed in their time and place. As the authors believed what they wrote, they were not lying.

Nope….. one is not condemned for “not being convinced/believing in supernatural Bible stories.” I don’t believe you can back up your statement….. justify that Jesus taught that…. that this is Christian doctrine.

You can’t back up what you say…. You fabricate…. Make up…. What you call Christian teaching is false..in reality it is just a straw man of your own making that you ridicule. You lay on your own wrongful interpretation of Jesus teaching, then complain about it.


Well, you can’t back up what you say…..so let me show you why you can’t: this is Jesus speaking to a group of Jewish leaders. Pharisees if you will. These are folks who know…. Without a doubt, that Jesus has been performing miracles… yet, they still refuse….. they still reject. This is not a matter of “insufficient evidence.” This is a hard heart and pride issue. A hard heart and a prideful attitude will not ever see the evidence…. Will not ever be convinced.

John 5:39-40

“You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in the, you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Jesus is the source of “life.” There is no other. …”…yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Rejection of the Son….. that is the issue. Simply saying “….well God, this is your fault because you failed to convince me” is not a viable defense. See Romans 1:20

Come to Jesus…. Have life.

Don’t come to Jesus…. Reject Him….. the result is then no “life.”

Are you saying that non believers, those who do not believe in Jesus are saved?

''Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.'' - Romans 10:9

What happens if you don't? It makes no difference?

''Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'' - John 14:6

''No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'' - John 6:44

What if you have no belief in this? Are you exempt?

Are you claiming that it makes no difference whether you believe or not?

What about this? ---- ''Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'' Mark 16:16

Does it not mean what it says? Does it mean the opposite, that you are saved regardless of not believing?







Nothing of the sort. Consider the implications of the verse above.

I'm not sure I agree. I don't mean this to be antagonistic. I'm saying this in questioning my own faith regarding this issue.

Look, I found Grace at 18. I found it in a roundabout way. I did a good deal of sinning in the years after, and finally settled down and got myself right with the Lord. As I said previously, I believe there is one sin that God does not forgive and that is Apostacy-- the willful denial of God. Given that, I believe that this then opens up the door for accepting Free Will into the mix.

If I had to give an analogy, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior puts you on the tracks for running a proper life. However, there are all sorts of things one can do to run your engine off the tracks down the line. One does not get issued a free pass on accepting Grace. In fact, there is a lifetime of temptation ahead, and the hard work is just beginning.

Where I think your view and mine intersect is that I believe God is always out there doing the best He can to help us along. This is all about us turning away from Him and not about Him turning his back on us.

I could be dead wrong on all this, but I figure it is better to run my life assuming that I have the Free WIll to muck things up, than to believe that I have no control and find that to be a delusion later on.

I believe that God’s saving grace is unconditional and everlasting, and that Jesus’ work of redemption is total and complete and everlasting. Once we truly believe and truly receive it, our sins, all of em’...past, present, and future...are covered by the Blood of the Atonement. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken from it. John 3:16 is the gospel in a nutshell, and it says that we have received everlasting life. That means forever. Period.

To me, it seems that the ‘unforgivable’ status is tied to an ongoing and willful hard-heartedness. It doesn’t so much prevent them from being forgiven, more so it prevents them from doing what’s necessary to seek forgiveness. It seems that “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” was committed by Jesus’ adversaries and ‘not’ by those who had professed allegiance to Him. The danger...the ultimate basis for ‘unforgivable’...to me, appears to be a hard-hearted, unbelieving, and unrepentant attitude towards God, by those whose sins had never been covered by the Blood of the Atonement.

You and I are sinners.....even though our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.....we still sin, and we will still die sinners. You and I must still account for our lives though, we will both still stand in judgement before our Creator, and be admonished for our sin.....including our continued sin ‘after’ we accepted God’s saving grace. But, to me, the eternal consequences of our sin...all of em’...will be ‘passed over’ because our sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement.

It’s OK if our opinions differ on this matter; we may also disagree on some aspects of politics or child rearing or elk hunting. Our difference of opinion on any of these things in no way diminishes any of these things.

Curtis Huson was a fundamentalist Baptist preacher. His statement near the end that Baptists are the only large group of Christians that have eternal security in their doctrine is wrong., But he's absolutely right when he says what the Christian misses out on when they don't believe it.

God's Word is Truth Forever. The woman at the well had not yet come to a saving relationship with Jesus and had a long line of mistakes that God did not condone. The Lord most certainly knows our hearts, and she had not done that which solidifies her salvation yet. However, once the woman went back into her village and told her fellow Samaritans what she had heard the Lord say and they went for themselves to see Him, begged him to stay with them and the Lord did stay two days and many Samaritans' were saved. Because she believed after she heard the Lord and went back and told others. This is what the scriptures tell us to do.

You had better look real close at the whole Bible, because Satan has a hold on you. You will need to cast him out to let the Lord in. But you are not alone. So many on here are in the same boat.

Amen, Brother!

So fitting

https://twitter.com/patton6966/status/1443040947554734081

Except that Jesus said that apostasy is NOT the unforgivable sin. It's calling the Holy Spirit evil. Read Mark 3, 22-30. The Jews had accused him of using the power of Satan to cast out demons. In his response to them, Jesus said that all other sins are forgivable but not this one. V. 30 then specifies what their sin was.

We are indeeds sinners as Christians. It is unfortunate that piety movements have tried to erase this truth and have changed the message making another gospel.

Martin Luther, as a Augustinian monk, was a pietist like no other. Any three men on this forum could not have matched him in his works. Even with his severe and self harming piety he was haunted by the very real truth that he did not keep the 10 commandments no matter how hard he tried. He was condemned by the Law not made righteous.

He was studying Romans. I’m sure that he had read it many times. On one occasion the light came on when he read the quote from Genesis. “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness”.

Imputation is a twenty dollar word, a scriptural word, that has been extracted from most church doctrine to the detriment of the church. Luther began to understand what scripture was teaching.

Abraham, father of the faithful, was not righteous. He was “viewed” as righteous. He possessed an alien righteousness based on the promise. The same righteousness that is imputed to ALL who are in Christ.

That being the case, as you said, we are indeed all still sinners. No participant on this thread keeps the law. People go to elaborate means to tell themselves that they do but every man is imperfect in every aspect of the law and breaks the commandments daily. People like to say that they make mistakes. No. It’s sin. Yet, there is no condemnation because of Christ righteousness being imputed to those who believe.

Since when is NOT sinning in the best interests of Satan?

But what about non believers? Are they included?

It's called "Amazing Grace', for Good reason.

Are you saying that non believers are saved?

Once they become Believers.

The simplest example of the what's necessary for salvation comes with the story of the thieves on the cross. Both thieves crucified, a fatal punishment that must be inflicted by another, dying, helpless. One scorns Christ to the end, dies, and ends up in hell. The other, nailed, helpless, dying, with no way whatsoever to help himself, never baptized, recognizes his sins (repents), and accepts Christs as his only salvation (faith) and is rewarded with the promise that "Today you will be with me in paradise."

No hail Marys, no good works. Just resentence and faith.

Some will argue that the thief didn't need baptizing because Jesus hadn't died and risen yet, whatever that has to do with it. It's a pretty lame argument.

Agreed.

A question for the Christians on this thread. Do you believe that spiritual benefit can come through physical means?

Yes, if Prayer is physical .

Benefit. Yes, meaning a good life. Salvation, no. Without faith its all for nothing

1st John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We ALL have sinned and are still sinning. Jesus told us our thoughts qualify as sinning. This is why He has to die on the cross so His blood could cover those sins. For those who believe that is what He did and are not afraid to tell that to others, we are saved. Those who cannot do that simple thing are not saved until they find that truth and incorporate it into their life. Nor does it have to be a perfect life as you seem to believe yours is. There is no perfection on this earth. But we will be made to be perfect when we leave it. That is the Grace of God.

Through faith in his blood, Romans 3:25, I exchanged my unrighteousness (sin) for the righteousness of Jesus Christ. (Romans 10:1-4) My debt has been marked Paid in Full! It's not about me, it's about Him. I am secured by his innocent blood shed on the cross of Calvary.

Thank you Jesus!!

Maybe apply my question to salvation in particular.

Do you believe that spiritual benefit can come through physical means?

I guess the opposite question would be do you believe that spiritual benefits come from the spirit of man, cognition or will (those three words collectively a representation of the inner man)?

If you take time to listen to this, it may shed some light on the Topic.

John 19:28,29

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

-Jesus


That's what I call permanent.

Amen, Brother Keith!

When does that happen?

Take a few minutes to find out what Biblical Christianity teaches on that good question in the links of my signature.
A man in the N.T. asked a very similar question.

A non believer may know what Christianity teaches, may have read the bible, but is not convinced....what then?

Just like a lot of things in life, it sometimes takes an open mind and investigation. I like the gospel of John aka St. John as a place to spend the time to anyone searching. It claims to be the one unique book written to convince open-minded unbelievers.

John 20:26-
https://thekingjamesversionbible.com/john-20

There are examples of unbelievers who actually ask God for insight and He answers those seeking truth of Him.

The quote came to mind when you asked your other question was from Acts 16.

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Meaning that his household will be saved if they also choose to believe on Jesus Christ.

My salvation is as permanent as the spilt blood of Jesus.

It's easy to accuse those who disagree with one's beliefs of a closed mind. It may be the believer who is unwilling to consider other possibilities.

Nobody argues over matters that have been established through evidence.

No reasonable person would doubt the existence of a God given sufficient evidence.

Speaking of open minded. Back in the 19th century they used to refer to non- believers as " free thinkers"

Pretty apt .....

Perhaps I should have put it a different way. A person can be open minded about a lot of things, including the religious/ metaphysical. I meant that concerning those open to the possibility of the existence of a God described by the Bible.
PS:...and the reconciliation of God and men through His Son.

So what did they call the believers - "captive non-thinkers?"

Ask Roy.

The Bible is a pasted together combination of problematic history and wishful thinking based on oral tradition (ever played "whisper"?), many times translated, edited, and "interpreted".

Good luck with that .

Still isn't a bad way to structure one's life - the lessons are good.

I suspect believers and non-believers are going to wind up all the same - just dead.

I have to wonder how inspired Romans 13: 1 through 7 is. That would tell us that human government is doing God's good work and we are bound to obey because after all '' he beareth not the sword in vain''. Would our government be doing the good work of God? Hitler? Pol Pot? Kim Jong?

This thread is about "How Permanent is Your Salvation?"

So I'm curious Hastings, with the parts you believe, How permanent is Your salvation?

METAPHYSICAL?/!!!!!! I know metaphysical, so now you have my attention. What do you know about metaphysical?

I agree 100%

We did the whisper thing in the Military and my experience participating in that class is that you are 100% right on the money. Humans will be humans and each one has their own opinion and those opinions get worked into to the message.

I don't necessarily agree with the last part of your sentence. If I was writing what you posted it would read this way..........................I suspect believers and non-believers are going to wind up all the same.
And to take it further, if either the believers or the non-believers haven't ascended while still alive( think Elijah, Enoch) then both factions will be recycled.

Do you believe the books of John (gospel/epistle) were inspired by God the Holy Spirit?

Here's a clear promise to one specific group of believers.
They didn't believe in keeping the law to receive eternal life.
They didn't believe in keeping the sacraments ........
They did not even have to try with all their willpower to quit sinning to.........
What was the requirement?

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. "

I John5:11-13

That sounds familiar doesn't it?
Who else said that same thing?

Any comments on this bit of truth?

https://twitter.com/1FreeInhabitant/status/1443371279139016706/photo/1

I’ve resaved myself 11 times since this thread started.

I’m gold !

🦫

God is omniscient, meaning that he knows everything, past, present, and future. He knows what your final decision will be even if you waver back and forth for 50 years. Jesus said that God calls those who will be saved and those are drawn to him. So how does God know who to call? In Romans 8, it says that those who God foreknows will be called. That means that he knows whether you will chose for him or not. It's not predestination. You still have free choice, but God knows what that choice will be. With that knowledge in advance, he either calls you or he doesn't. The Bible doesn't say when that call will come. It could have already come and you're a work in motion, or maybe it won't come until you're on your deathbed. If you don't get called, don't say that God rejected you. You rejected him and he just knows it before you do.

I am going to treat any witness concerning Jesus the same way a court would treat any unreliable witness. His testimony is useless if some of his testimony is false. As I've said before, perjurers attempting to sell a falsehood bring it in under cover of known truth and hope the falsehood can get in without detection. Your selection of 1st John does not absolve Paul even if the two agree there.
I'm going to ask you if you think a person with access to and studying the whole bible with the exception of Paul and Hebrews could come to salvation? Can a person study the OT and the teachings of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the rest with the exclusion of Paul come to salvation? Let's say he was alone in a deserted place and someone dropped him the Bible with that part missing?

Yes, Of course.
The gospel is found throughout the Bible.
However, I don't think anyone would get saved without someone who is able to explain it to them.

The question I asked you is one example.
Did I John 5 sound familiar?
I thought it would. It was the same thing that Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:15-18.
I know you are familiar with and know that.
That's a good clear passage I think we agree on

Good night

wife says... Jesus..... is god .... well ?

My question had nothing to do with 'rejecting God' - not being convinced of something doesn't mean rejection.

More to the point, my question was specifically about what is supposed to happen to a non believer once they are presented with proof of the existence of God, in the presence of God, while awaiting judgment.

The question being: does a non believers lack of conviction prior to being in the presence of God condemn them? Yes or no?

One of the best sermons ever recorded, and a great description of how one is led into the Christian faith.

And one more. Even if you aren't a Christian both recordings are worth listening to.

It's black or white. You're saved or you're not. There is no 'sort of saved'. If you haven't accepted Christ, then you're in a state of rejection. For when you turn around, it's different for each person and only you and the Lord know when it happens.

Proof of existence of God? Walk out your front door and look around. Pick up any book on anatomy and look at the incredible complexity of life, right down to the molecular level. Then go smaller than molecular, to the elemental level and the periodic table, the makeup of atoms themselves. To think that this all occurred by accident from some ball of matter exploding is totally absurd. Besides, where did that ball come from if not created by God?

"Rock of Ages."