Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Am I overthinking bullet construction?

ratsmacker,

I know an outfitter in eastern Montana who guides a lot of hunters to big whitetail bucks--and there are some big-bodied deer in that country, where quite a bit of corn is grown in certain areas. He HATES any kind of "premium" bullet, because they don't kill as quickly as the 160-grain Sierras he shoots in his 7mm Remington Magnum--the rifle he sometimes has to use to follow up and finish bucks shot with various premiums.

When my father was still in his magnum phase he launched 165 grain Game Kings from a 300 Winchester magnum.

RE: Ballistic tip toughness. Any BT today is plenty tough for deer size game save the varmint ones which are only made in 25 caliber and lower and not in traditional hunting weight bullets. The BT's with heavy jackets are almost too tough for standard cartridges and work excellent on elk even out of magnum cartridges. The heavy jacket versions are the toughest non bonded cup and core made.

Yep, because they're about 3/4 "monolithic."

Only definitional "failure" was reported by two friends, one the shooter - the other the finisher, on a Newf moose in the 1980s. Two 180 gr Hornady SPs from a .300 Roy splashed on the ribs, such that the other friend had to use his .338 to finish the job.
Est distance was just under 200 yds. Autopsy showed shallow penetration of the 180s just beyond the ribs. No fragments made it to the midline. Would the moose have expired without the finisher? Yes, no,, maybe.

I would be inclined to call BS were it not for the involved individuals, and my own experience with that bullet on a small whitetail one year earlier. '06, est 2600 fps impact on rib. In recoil saw a 2" hole open up and deer went down, expiring quickly. Sufficient fragments in the lungs/heart. I found the jacket remnant. One piece and had split open on the long axis resulting in a single flat piece of jacket metal. Still have it.

This is not intended as a knock on Hornady bullets. As those with long experience recognize, manufacturers sometimes have to make adjustments. In general, we get great products. And most troubles result from our failure to match bullet construction and performance requirements.

John,
When did Nosler stop offering the BT’s in .338? (other than the current Silver Ballistic Tip) Is my memory fuzzy or did they also offer a 35 cal Ballistic Tip at one time?

I don't remember the exact year the 200s became totally Ballistic Silvertips, but guess it was around a decade ago. That said, I have never been able to find any difference in performance between them.

Yes, Nosler offered .35 Ballistic Tips, if I recall correctly a 225 and maybe a 200. Could look in my older to manuals to make sure.

They also offered a 260-grain .375 Ballistic Tip very briefly. I know this because of taking some to South Africa to field-test in 2002, using my Ruger No. 1 .375 H&H (which is now owned by Campfire member Cascade). Loaded them to around 2700 fps and they worked very well, among other instances shooting lengthwise through a springbok (about the size of pronghorn), and taking two BIG gemsbok bulls, weighing around 550 pounds on the ranch's cattle scale. On the second bull the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.

But that was a year before Nosler introduced AccuBonds. At the time I was told they test-bonded all the Hunting Ballistic Tips, then shot them into media to compare whether the bonding affected penetration and expansion compared to the B-Tip version. In some bullets the bonding did help, and among them were the 260-grain .375 and 225-grain .35. So they dropped the Ballistic Tip version of both bullets, and only produced AccuBonds. In other instances they continued to produce Ballistic Tips--if I recall correctly one that passed the penetration test was the 150 7mm.

Eventually, however, the good reputation of many bonded bullets (including Accubonds) created demand from customers for AccuBond versions of some Ballistic Tips, even though Nosler's tests indicated there was no advantage in performance. Which is why there's now a 150-grain 7mm AccuBond.

Mule Deer,

Out of all those bullets, how many animals have been lost due to bullet failure?

It appears they've gone from one extreme to the other.

I guess "too tough" would depend on caliber, bullet weight and speed. Seems there can be some variation from bullet to bullet.

DF

[quote[Mule Deer,
Out of all those bullets, how many animals have been lost due to bullet failure?[/quote]

Not many. One was a young cow elk I shot with a then-new "premium" bullet, a 150-grain from a .270 Winchester, that was getting good reviews from gun writers. The range was about 75 yards, and the cow was angling away to the left. I put the bullet in the rear of the ribs, angling toward the right shoulder, and the cow disappeared into to the nearby timber. Didn't find any blood, and it was early in the season with the ground too dry and hard to show many tracks. Found her a day later, more than half a mile of rough country from where she was shot. Opened her up, and the bullet had barely made it into the left lung. The meat was soured.

I went back and read the reviews, and none of the writers had actually tested the bullet on game or in media. Instead they basically repeated what the bullet company press releases said. A few months later Bob Hagel ripped the bullet in his review, because he'd actually shot some into his sawdust/sand test media, and they failed miserably. The company eventually redesigned the bullet, and that version turned out to be very good. The failed bullet was the original Speer Grand Slam.

Lost a whitetail doe shot with a cup-and-core 150-grain .30-30 factory-load Federal roundnose bullet at around 75 yards. It was quartering toward me, and turned and ran into nearby brush, limping. Found some fragments of leg bone and a few drops of blood, but never found the deer.

Other than that I've seen bullet failures on animals that had to be shot again, but weren't lost. One was an eating-size mule deer buck I shot at 200 yards as it quarters toward me, aiming for the near shoulder. After the shot it disappeared quickly over a small ridge, limping but it left a little blood trail, and a half mile later I spotted the buck standing on a hillside, 200 yards away, it's bad leg drawn up. I shot it again in the ribs, and it dropped. Turned out the first bullet had broken the shoulder joint, but lost its core and the empty jacket was lying against the ribs behind the shoulder. That was a 150-grain Winchester Silvertip from a .30-06 factory load.

Saw my cousin shoot a big mule deer doe in the shoulder as it quartered toward us at around 100 yards, the bullet a 117-grain Hornady Interlock boattail started at around 2900 fps. The doe limped off a little ways and stood there broadside, and a second bullet through the ribs put it down. The first hadn't penetrated the ribcage, and we only found fragments.

But have also seen a couple of bullets supposedly "fail," yet kill deer. On was a 130-grain Sierra GameKing from a .270 Winchester that I put into an angling-away mule deer buck, aiming for the far shoulder. The buck dropped and never moved. Turned out the bullet had lost its jacket after only penetrating the skin--found it next to the hole during skinning--but the core ended up in the right shoulder, and killed the deer.

A similar thing happened with a 105-grain Speer Hot-Cor from a .243 Winchester on a whitetail buck at 250 yards. It shed the jacket at the entrance hole, but the core went on into the lower spine, dropping the buck. It needed a finisher, but never moved after the first shot.

Duh, I guess I could check my manuals, seeing as how I have all of them.

And yes, Nolser made 225g BT's in 35 cal. Found them in a older manual. I had two 35 Whelens at one time and thought I had bought and loaded some. I had to search and search through my chrono notebooks and finally found where I had chrono'd some loads. The manual says the tips were "buckskin" color. Don't remember that.........

Back in the early 60's when I was in my early teens I started reading Elmer Keith and thought what ever he said was darn near gospel. Before my Dad move us to Alaska in 1965 I had never shot at a big game animal.

After I was discharged in 1973 I immediately picked up a .300 Win. and lung shot a nice bull caribou with one of the 220 grain Silvertips at about 400 yards. The bullet passed through and the caribou piled up after about a 20 yard sprint. To this day that is the longest shot at a caribou I have taken. Next was a 200 grain Speer Hot Cor in a cow moose's forehead at about 20 yards. No exit and a thumb size entrance hole.

A year later I kept thinking about Elmer's words and got a .338 Win. and some of the new 250 grain Grand Slams. I shot a young bull moose in the forehead at about 20 yards and the entrance hole was about the size of a orange and no exit hole. The rest of the Grand Slams went into paper targets and I wised up and started loading the Nosler Partition and stayed with it for the 30-06 and .338 until the late 80's when I switched to Barnes X bullets.

I am still using the Barnes X bullets, but now they are the TTSX version, 168 grain in the 30-06 and 225 grains in the .338. They penetrate as good or better on moose as the 200 grain Partition from the 30-06 and 250 grain from the .338, but recoil is not as bad. I doubt I will ever use any thing else in Alaska for what I do. Also, I have never shot a critter past 450 yards and that was one moose.

If I hunted state side I would use the Nosler Partition again, it might be the best all around bullet for most big game that we eat. I would trust the Partition to open up on deer sized game past 200 yards and I could always try the Accubond that is so popular in Alaska, along with the Barnes TTSX and Partition.

Man, I’d love to have a few hundred of them. Bet they worked excellent. The 225 AB is great as well, but I bet the 225 BT was a good one.

Similar statements is exactly what has me thinking about the difference in my loading for Elk sized game vs deer and antelope. Why pay premium bullet prices when a good cup and core bullet is likely more effective and half the price. Keeping the lead out of my food is a big benefit, especially when feeding grandkids on Sunday nights. It doesnt make sense to me to spend more, to shoot premiu bullets that may not be as effective as something cheaper on light skinned game. We all know, if you put the bullet where it is supposed to go, they will all work.

Well, it's been a while since we rolled out the South Carolina study. This is an account of well over 400 WT kills observed over a number of years, data accumulated.

Result: WT's shot with C&C bullets ran about half the distance compared to those shot with premium bullets.

Southern WT's aren't that big or hard to kill, Seems the softer C&C bullets put them down them faster than harder, premium bullets.

And I'm sure this was just a fluke, but WT's shot with .25 cal. rifles ran the fewest yards, edging out all others.. Although the numbers were too low for statistical confidence, it makes a great arguing point for quarter bore shooters.

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

DF

Mule Deer.

Thanks for the information, very Interesting

I have never been a big Sierra or Speer bullet user.

I did use the 140gr Hornady BTSP out of my 270 for a few seasons in the 90's, and they worked but went back to flat base. My impression was the BT's were softer.

My nephews shot three deer with reduced loads and the 140 BTSP. Running about 2300fps. Recovered two of them. Perfect expansion, and both shots were less than a 100 yards.
The 3rd deer was a pass through the ribs.

I didn't read all this thread but read enough to think we're not talking about shooting past 600 yards. Therefore I suggest there is an all around bullet.

Hammer bullets. I've been using them in different calibers for years.

www.hammerbullers.com

If you’re like me, of course you are.

When I started elk hunting I was certain I needed “premium” bullets pushed from big cases. Then, the more elk I shot, and the more I saw shot by others, my thinking began to change. I eventually came back to .473” case heads powered with sub 60 gr. powder charges. The next evolution was I started going back to the cup and core bullets I’d never had a problem with on deer sized game - bullets like the Nosler Ballistic Tip, Hornady Interlock, Speer Hotcore, and Sierra Gameking.

Sure, the Partition or Accubond are usually my first stop with a new rifle, but I know enough to know they’re really not needed with 308/30-06 sized cases.

Wow, 5 pages of replies and I never heard the correct response for bullet selection. I thought everyone knew the bullet construction that produced the highest BC was the best.

Brad,

I have a .30-caliber 165-grain Speer Hot-Cor in my collection of recovered bullets that's perfectly expanded, and retained 85% of its original weight.

It killed an average mature whitetail buck in 1977, in the hilly country of northeastern Montana. One my rifles back then was a Remington 760 .30-06 with a barrel that had been shortened to 20", and my handload got around 2800 fps. Jumped him in a brushy draw and missed with a first shot, because he jumped over a low bush and the bullet went under him. Pumped another round in the chamber and managed to put the bullet in the left rear of the ribcage as he neared the top of the draw. He started stumbling a little as he went over the top, and found him about 30 feet beyond. Found the Hot-Cor in his right shoulder during butchering.

Eventually came to prefer Hornady Spire Points (especially after the Interlock ring appeared), and Nosler Ballistic Tips, but killed a bunch of big game with Hot-Cors during those years, especially the 105 6mm from a .243 Winchester.

John