Didn't you contribute to Michael Hanback, as well?
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
My days of running around with a Remington SP-10 are over, the hills somehow have gotten steeper and longer.
The best patterning, softest shooting, turkey gun I ever had. I had a matte blued and walnut version with a 26" barrel and XX full choke. Always hunted with a Realtree Advantage stretchy gun sock over it. I alway had heard 10 g pounded you, but that 11lb gun put my Browning BPS 3.5" 12g to shame. It patterned better and was far soft shooting. I foolishly sold it and wish I never had. I've been contemplating a Browning Gold 10g, but it's just not the same.
Never shot a turkey with a 10 ga but have owned 3 or 4 of them. I duck hunted with them and always said I would rather shoot a 10 ga than a 12 ga 3.5" mag. any day. These days, I don't shoot a 10 or a 12 ga 3.5 mag.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program? Real quick: 1300 fps 1 1/4 oz shot charge
Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets) @ 60 yards: Final Vel: 582 Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45 Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8 Gel Penetration: 1.72
TSS #9 (447 pellets) @ 60 yards: Final Vel: 577 Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90 Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6 Gel Penetration: 1.67
Originally Posted by LFC
Rick I'd still like to know the mathematical equation for figuring energy density ?[s][/s] .
I'm guessing "energy density" is energy (given in foot/lbs) divided by cross sectional area (given in square inches). So Energy Density=Energ/cross sectional area which makes sense because the units given are ft/lbs/sq in. A way of quantifying that the diameter of the pellet has an effect on penetration, just as much as the weight and velocity.
difference in sizing standards? rounding? I don't know, but in same ballpark.
The redneck ballistics test mentioned above by others shooting at barn tin goes hand in hand with this.
As does the 100 lb lady in stiletto heels standing on your foot versus the 200 lb guy standing on your foot wearing wide heeled work boots.
Hanback is too young, taught Dick Kirby how to turkey hunt...
I had all 3 barrels that were available for the SP-10 and used the rifle sight Rem-Choke barrel for turkey hunting. It was the wood stocked matte finished metal model. I tried a 12 gauge 3-1/2" Browning BPS when they came out. Crap! That thing just about loosened the teeth in my head! Wasn't a fan of the Ithaca Mag-10 and when the SP-10 came out I picked one up. I'd shoot a SP-10 any day of the week over the BPS. Made the mistake of getting a Benelli Nova back when Galyan's was blowing them out for real cheap, forget how much, but it was cheap. Fired 1 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz turkey load from the Benelli and gave it to a guy I didn't like.
Anyway, getting off topic! TSS is a game changer, fact! I now use a Rem 870 youth 20ga I tricked out for turkey hunting. Small, lightweight and acts just like a big gun on the turkeys with the TSS shot.
It isn't what happens to you that defines you, it's what you DO about what happens to you that defines you!
Federal TSS 20 gauge is "only" 100 fps faster and a 1/4 oz heavier than Longbeard XR. 20g TSS is slower than XX than 85-100 fps while being 3/16 oz heavier.
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Dean, I had one barrel for my SP-10, but used it with a full choke for 00 buck and modified choke for rifled slugs. It was a little too heavy to still hunt with, but it was an incredible stand gun for deer.
And I agree with you regarding the Benelli. I have a Super Nova and 3.5" literally gives me a headache. One of the reasons I moved to smi-autos for 3.5". Oh, and the Super Nova shoots high for some reason.
I used steel soup cans when I was in my muzzleloading turkey hunting phase. Wanted to make sure what I was using would do the job. My 10 bore, with the nickle plated #5's, had no trouble punching through the cans at turkey yardages. I enjoyed trying all the different fiber wads, cardboard wads, wonder wads, bore buttons...
Then I got into loading my own blackpowder shells and using a couple different 12 bore sxs hammer guns, now I'm back to a modern shotgun with modern shells.
It isn't what happens to you that defines you, it's what you DO about what happens to you that defines you!
I too discredited TSS when I first started hearing about it. How could #9 shot out of a 20ga do what people claimed it did? I shoot skeet and was using that logic. Then I tried it and now it's what I use. And thankfully, I don't have to buy any at today's prices.
Last edited by DeanAnderson; 01/04/22.
It isn't what happens to you that defines you, it's what you DO about what happens to you that defines you!
I strolled down the modern 10 gauge road several times.
I had a BPS 10 that didn't shoot very good with a variety of chokes that were available at the time. A big modern matte finished 10 ga. SxS it shot like hell I can't recall the maker....I too had a Remington SP 10 it shot okay great gun for duck hunting it's weight was hard to stop in full swing. I toted it turkey hunting one time and later sold it. I made enough money to pay for it buying and selling SP 10 ga. bolt buffers.
When it first came out I hunted a year or so with a Mossberg 835....couldn't wait to unload that rattle trap of a beast.
I later bought a Tom Choke full custom 3.5" BPS 12. ga. one of the first ones on a 10 ga, BPS frame. I bought it from a guy that had a custom Bansner 10 ga, BPS....He thought his Bansner 10 was "the gun".....after I got the 12 from him and we patterned both of them the 12 smoked the Bansner 10 ga. both shooting with Federal Premium turkey loads...he didn't even want to look at the targets....back in the day Federal was the turkey ammo.
My list of turkeys guns is really long just like my spur chain.....I've never shot a 10 gauge that would out pattern my SBE of going on 22 years.
Okay, forgive me, I've never really studied TSS shot since my Winchester rounds have always worked well for me. But I'm intrigued now, and intrigue tends to make me spend money. So I'm interested in the following:
So, for a given shell, in my case, a 3" or 3.5" 12g shell loaded with #5 lead shot. The same shell loaded with #7 or #9 TSS will have significantly more pellets - a no-brainer. That's an advantage if penetration is at least the same, and if at least the same percentage of the shotload hits the target, which both appear to be the case. But since I've found my lead loads perfectly adequate for turkeys, I'm less interested in the amount of shot hitting the target, than the potential recoil reduction by moving down a gauge.
There must be a point where a 20 gauge 3" TSS shell is putting at least as many pellets on target as a 12 gauge 3" lead shell loaded with #5. In other words, there must be a smaller gauge TSS equivalet to a larger gauge lead round. If I can get as many pellets of #7 TSS out of a 20 gauge on target as I can with a 12 gauge 3 or 3.5" lead round, with a corresponding reduction in recoil (and a lower price 20 g TSS shell versus a 12 g TSS shgell), then both the economics, performance and comfort become more attractive.
That's what I find intriguing about TSS. Getting my current 12g lead performance out of a 20g. Where's the point of equivallency?
Great question, in part because there are so many ways to go with loading TSS that setting parameters makes it easier to focus. So, you want to maintain pellet count, lethality and reduce recoil, maybe drop a gauge or two? (Remember, a heavier gun will absorb more recoil, but ...)
The first thing is to find what sized shot is most similar to your #5 lead benchmark load. I see some Longbeard as follows:
12 ga, 3.5 inches, 2 oz lead, 1200 fps. The KPY numbers on that load based on 2-inches of penetration, are as follows:
Chilled lead #5 2 oz (340 pellets)
@ 2 inches gel penetration
Final Vel: 710 Distance: 35.5 yards Energy (ft/lbs): 2.86 Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 253.3
@ 8 pound gun weight
Recoil velocity: 21.45 Recoil Energy (ft/lbs): 57.13
Right off the bat, let's try
TSS #9 1 oz (357 pellets)
@ 2 inches gel penetration
Final Vel: 662 Distance: 43.9 yards Energy (ft/lbs): 1.19 Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 236.4
@ 8 pound gun weight
Recoil velocity: 12.06 Recoil Energy (ft/lbs): 18.08
So, you cut recoil to 1/3 of your 2 oz lead load, increased range by 25%, and you can do this out of a 28 ga now, although the lighter gun will increase felt recoil, of course.
Ballistic Products load data (Load 180716-10088) claims 1290 fps for 1 0z TSS out of a 2 3/4-inch 28 ga hull.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
So, if the above 28g round is roughly equivalent to the 12g round I'm using, a 20g would likely be better.
Why would a 20 be "better?"
I look at it in terms of shot charge. Shot string length aside, 1 oz of shot at XXXX fps is what it is. The turkey will not care if the 1 oz is shot from a 12, 16, 20, or 28.
Are you wanting a more lethal load than your 12 ga lead using TSS? Well, then probably. A 20 ga hull has more internal capacity than a 28 ga hull, and you can probably use that to stuff in more TSS goodies. It will cost you in recoil of course, which is why we developed a load to pretty much equal your 12 ga load and reduce recoil as much as possible in the first place. You gotta pick your poison.
"Better" can include a lot of things and may be different for different people. If your primary goal is to reduce recoil and maintain lethality, it might be best to keep the 12. In my case, I chase quail up and down the foothills and have to carry a shotgun, so a light and quick-handling gun is "better" for me - a huge benefit of TSS. Another is fit/shootability. If you have a gun that fits you like a glove, then that's the one. How different gun patterns the load you want might make one "better."
It's all about priorities at that point.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
I believe what really makes the TSS work so well, is the density to frontal area ratio, of the pellet. #5 is .120" diameter and #9 is .080" diameter.
In flight (smaller = less air resistance), and upon impact (smaller = less surface area to punch through). The density does the rest.
TSS #2s are being used to kill deer and hogs, out to 100 yards.....and coyotes well beyond. Nearly all the pellets exit, on broadside hits, according to the reviews I've read.
On a much smaller scale, it reminds me of those 30mm depleted uranium rounds, from an A-10 warthog, going through an armored tank body.
The higher the density, the better the penetration......the smaller the shot, the higher the pellet count. They work together....just as the opposite works against you.
TSS (18.1 g/cc) is to lead (11.29 g/cc), what lead (11.29 g/cc) is to steel (7.85 g/cc).......waterfowl hunters understand it!
I've been looking for a reason to buy another Winchester SX4. I love it in 12 g. I can see a cantilever turkey version in my future for TSS shot.
The Win Super X line of shotguns, especially at their price point are vastly underrated. I've been beyond impressed with my SX2. And let's be honest, outside of the M12 and 21 - Winchester isn't a name easily associated with shotgunning.
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