Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

If G1 BC = 0.190, that CEB BBW#13 brass FN 450-grainer at 2400 fps MV
would be down to 2174 fps at 52 yards, 2183 fps at 50 yards.
Lessay that was actually 2400 fps instrumental at 5 yards.
Corrected MV = 2422 fps
Impact velocity would be 2195 fps at 52 yards, 2203 fps at 50 yards.

Will check the Africa forum here for Sir Khulu's reports.



Robert Ruark would surely feel that way.







I bet he would approve of this too:







Above boy is Sir Jerry at age 3 y.o.
He was big for his age.
The old man taught him well.
Among varmints he took with his .458 were a full bag of African plains game.

Both the 450 gr & 500 gr are corrected MV 2400 fps. Impact distance for the 450 was 52 yds and for the 500 gr it was 30 yds. The roaming of elephants, wind and terrain decide how far we need to shoot.

The 52 yd shot is my longest on ele but a clear shot and the circle dot reticle made the shot, off sticks, ethical and easy.

The 30 yd shot was in fairly thick brush with milling eles around the tuskless and the anticipation of a pass through- as happened - made the use of a Leupold 1-4x duplex reticle quite useful.

The only bullet recovered was a 500 gr Woodleigh Hydroshock fired by my PH from his Win M-70 Classic 458 WM into the 2nd tuskless’ pelvis after it was down from a frontal brain shot. Recovered under the hide on the off side.

Thanks for that Sir Khulu.
50 yards being a long shot on ele is why the call it dangerous game, eh ?

I guess your PH might have been using Federal Premium factory loads if he was shooting the 500-gr HYDRO from a .458 WinMag.
Here is a dissection of that load:







I think you had a much better load in your .458 WinMag, your handload.
Did you leave some for the PH ?
I am guessing Woodleigh made the 500-gr/.458 HYDRO on an exclusive contract with Federal factory ammo maker.

Here is that 500-gr/.458 CEB used in your 460 G&A:



The 500-gr HYDRO without feed cap is 1.525" long, with feed cap about 1.680", too long for my .458 preferences.

At the CEB site here is a 570-gr/.510 brass FN recovered from "elephant shoulder":



I am guessing it came from a .500 NE and probably had MV no more than 2200 fps and would lose about 100 fps for each 25 yards initially.
570-gr/.510 sectional density = 0.313 with greater meplat diameter
500-gr/.458 SD = 0.341 with smaller meplat, for greater "Penetration Index" at similar velocity.
No wonder the .510 was recovered and the .458 was not,
if we consider similar resistance from a .510 shoulder shot and your .458 head shot ...
But if your bullet was impacting at higher velocity it had to overcome a higher initial resistance from the impact media ...
Which it did.

If a 220-gr/.458 nubbin left over after the explosion of a 404-gr Shock Hammer
can make it to the offside skin of a 3300-lbs giraffe after breaking the onside shoulder,
I am betting this special run of 400-gr CEB brass FN might be adequate for elephant:





The BOL is relatively shorter on this one, compared to the 450-gr and 500-gr CEB brass FNs,
because the inter-band and nose "bore-riding" minor diameters are increased to .449" instead of the CEB usual of 0.440".
Shorter is good for inherent stability and greater net case capacity, of course.
Maybe the extra velocity won't go to waste on impact.

I'd not hesitate to use a CEB 400 grain solid in the 458 Win mag or 450 win mag+ on bull elephant

I would never swap my 416 Rem M70 for the same in 458 Win.

EdM
I’m with you
R

Never swap, acquire both

The reaction of this year’s 1st tuskless to impact of the 0.458” 450 gr bullet compared to that of the 0.422” 400 gr bullet on last year’s tuskless was markedly different. MV of the 0.422” bullet was 2500 fps vs the 0.458” at 2400.

Bullet placement and trajectory was the same for both bullets - through the near right shoulder, through the ventricle of the heart and exit immediately behind the far left foreleg. Elephant size was very similar as was speed of travel - slow left to right walk. The 0.458” bullet impact point was about 10 yds further from the muzzle.

The ele struck with the 0.422” immediately turned and reversed 180 degrees backtracking about 40-50 yds (est) where we found it. It didn’t stagger, merely turned.

With the 0.458” 450 grain bullet, the ele clearly staggered and almost fell before turning about 60 degrees left before the follow up shot struck. It went about the same distance as the prior ele before falling. Speed and direction of movement up to impact was the same.

The specific phase of the stride seem nearly identical based on trajectory so it appears that the major variables are related to bullet properties. I have seen this stagger and turn once before, on a large bull shot in 2010 at 17 yds with a 570 gr 0.509” CEB BBW #13 fired from a 500 NE 3” with a MV = 2175 fps from the right barrel.

Even though these 3 events represent an observational series rather than a controlled experiment, my conclusion is that the 2 larger diameter large-bore bullets seem to produce a greater effect on an elephant than the heavy-medium class of bullet/cartridge combination.

Open to countervaling opinions based on data and/or information, in the interest of advancing the knowledge base of the Knights of the Square Table.

Sir Bob,

Could you post that link to the CEB site? I looked through the gallery and couldn’t find it.

Ian curious because the 2nd shot on the bull ele I mentioned previously was a frontal brain shot with precisely this bullet which penetrated next to his right eye, as he turned to his right after the shoulder shot, dropping him. The bullet was recovered after about 3 feet of straight line penetration, from the base of the neck at the shoulder.

I sent CEB a photo of the recovered bullet, as well as an explicitly prepared experiment using the shoulder and humerus of that elephant, wrapped in its hide and fired from about 15 yds. It broke the bone, exited through front and rear layer of hide and buried itself in a mopane tree, many inches deep.

Just as the bullet you posted the frontal shot recovery could easily be reloaded.

Dear Sir, I take it that your reference is to Sir Ron, so I expect him to show up shortly with the answer to your request.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,

Apologies to all, especially to you and Sir Ron for the breach in knightly etiquette.

Of course I was referring to Sir Ron. Wrote that note from an airport at the tail end of a very long journey back home and the old processor was not functioning quite up to specs.

Sir Khulu,
I am honored to be addressed as Sir Bob in your Freudian slip, Ron will do.
You are quite experienced as an elephant hunter.
Good to have your input at the Square Table, where the .458 Winchester Magnum gets a square deal.

There is no link, known to me, other than the picture of recovered bullet found here:

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/510-570gr-safar-solid-nitro-express

Maybe it is a photo of a bullet recovered by you ?
Within the realm of possibility as you did recover the angling frontal brain/facial-shot 570-gr/.510 bullet
from the elephant's base of neck at off-side shoulder.
CEB simplified the legend/label on photo ?
They use the same photo as an illustration with the .458 brass FN bullets too.
Easier to recover a .510-caliber than a .458-caliber CEB brass FN on elephant, I reckon.

Just sour grapes or recoil shy ?

Amen, Sir John.
The only .416 Rem. Mag. I have on hand is one of the Winchester M70 Big Five rifles with a gold cape buffalo adorning the floor plate.
My other M70 Classic .416 RemMag got rebarreled to .458 WinMag, I call her Marcella, sub-8 pounds bare weight.
The .458 thump is so much more pleasing on both ends than a .416,
and the .458 WinMag is the most versatile sporting rifle of all time,
from sub-Trapdoor level loads
(paper-patched-BP, FN cast or VLD jacketed subsonic smokeless loads, etc.)
to supersonics at .45-70 levels
or leaving the .458 Lott in the dust.
The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer with BC of .419 and MV of +2500 fps leaves nothing to be desired
for any game not requiring a solid bullet.

The .458 WinMag does not require a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 psi like the .416 RemMag, bless its heart.

I have kept some other .416-caliber rifles on hand too, just for fun:
.416 Taylor
.416 Ruger
.416 Dakota
.416 Rigby
.416 Weatherby Magnum
.416 Barrett

Just sour grapes or recoil shy ?
Nah, just juveniles who don't play well with others.
They want to take their toys and go home.

I will never swap my .458 Win Mag for anything. Period. In fact, I've already written my last blog - but it will only appear at the right time, when I'm ready to "pack it in". The title is: "Why my .458 Winchester Magnum will be the last to go".

In the meantime I'll play with some other toys, but NEVER with the intention of "substitution"! As I've written too many times already: "The .458 Winchester Magnum is the most versatile rifle extant". Offensive? So be it! I've handloaded a majority of common cartridges from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag... Line 'em all up, and if I could only have one, knowing what I do now know, it would be a .458 Winchester Magnum... being a handloader. I've knowingly picked the .45-70 and .458 Win as my BIG BORES, not something less or more.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Here! Here!
Kudos to Sir Bob!!!

HS 58

I started reading this thread out of curiosity and it pushed me to search out a 458 WM. I now have a late 70’s vintage ruger 77RS tang safety enroute to my ffl. Hopefully I didn’t make a bad choice there.

My plan is to use a 400-450 for everything as I’m planning to use the 300 tsx in my 375 so will go a bit heavier here.

Looks like I better start researching this thread further for load ideas but if anyone has a good one I would appreciate the guidance.

The pictured tasco will come off immediately as I have a vari-x 1.75-6x32 sitting loose that will get the call atleast for now.