Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire The Horse Whipserer....Hmmmm...

....Monty Roberts,...he'll be in Cheyenne in a few days putting on a show....says he can take an un-trained horse that's never been ridden, and have a kid riding it it 30 minutes,...just by whispering a few things in his ear! .....I wish he'd come whisper to my paint about that lead-rope breaking crap! <P>So what do you horse people think about all this.....any truth to it, or are we gonna see some of ya call BS?!!?!? <BR>DS

Slayer, -- lots of knowledge, different types training, when all else fails don't forget the whip, 1" diameter, 3" long. Just like racking a shotgun, once they hear it they never forget. Fear is the best, fastest, training aid for anything or any body ever! I don't mean brutality, just like spanking a unruley child, a slap on the hand means nothing a strong belt on the butt get's attention. -- no

Slayer I don't know. Who gets to pick the horse he trains, him or me? I will tell you right off there are signs, not all of which I know, that a horse gives off just by looking at him that tell you what he is. How much green is in his eyes, how much white does he show, how does he hold his ears and head, how does he move when he is just walking around, is he pidgeon toed, cat hammed, got a roman nose, ewe neck, lower jaw over shot any, mule footed, got any fighting scars, things like that and a hundred more. He probably knows them all and can pick a horse that will be calm from the get go most likely. Even as little as I know I can pick you a bomb as that is easier for me it seems .<BR>I won't call BS but I would be a lot more impressed with his horse communication skills if he could get the caballo to whisper back to him. <BR>BCR<BR>

If Monty Roberts or anybody else, as you wrote above, "says he can take an un-trained horse that's never been ridden, and have a kid riding it it 30 minutes,... just by whispering a few things in his ear," that person is drastically oversimplifying the entire procedure that Roberts described in his book (The Man Who Listens to Horses).<P>I read the book a year and a half ago. Roberts described a somewhat longer and much more involved method of coming to terms with wild and unbroken horses, on their own terms as well as his. You'd have to (a) read the book or (b) watch him work to know what I mean. I can't say here what took him the good part of a book to say.<P>If you're skeptical, take him a horse you know to be unbroken, watch what he does with it (in a suitable location � not in a horse trailer or stall) for an hour or less, and decide for yourself whether he's BSing about what he can do.<P>If he's giving us "the straight of the goods" about what he claims he can do, neither you nor I nor anyone else can tell from his words alone (or anyone else's) whether he can do what he says he can do. The method he describes in his book is so off-the-wall compared with traditional horse-breaking methods, there's no way anyone can judge its merits by simply comparing it to established biases and theories.<P>I wish I could be there to see for myself. I believe he can do what he says he can do, and I'd love to see him do it. But I'm pretty certain he doesn't say "he can take an un-trained horse that's never been ridden, and have a kid riding it it 30 minutes,... just by whispering a few things in his ear!"<P>THINK about it � how does he get to the point where he can whisper anything in the horse's ear?<P>The credibility of ANYone's claim is already in serious doubt in the mind of anyone who intentionally or carelessly doesn't get the claim straight. Fair consideration of its credibility requires, first, accurate representation of the claim. The "claim" is already doomed, for example, if it's reduced to something like "Them Wright brothers claim they can FLY jes' by runnin' into a high wind 'n' flappin' their EARS! Can you b'lieve this, or WHAT?"<P>At least read the book before you (a) characterize his claim or (b) judge his ability or veracity. If he can do what he says he can do, I envy you the opportunity to see him do it. I wish my late father could've seen it, too. Dad was noted for his skill with horses that no one else could approach. OTOH, I know how to spell horss � uh, whorse � uh, harse � oh, you know what I mean! �o)<P>FWIW, if true, Roberts learned his technique as a preteen kid watching wild horses by the hour and day and week.

Ken Howell,....your right, I didn't hear Monty Roberts say he could have a kid riding an untrained horse in less than 30 minutes, 'cause I never got the priveledge of talking to him....guess he was off wispering to ponies somewhere.....so the radio announcer that has been playing his paid advertisement all week here is the one who said it, so if your offended by the way the statement was posed, you can take it up with the DJ whose been repeating it on the radio 50 times a day.<P>I like Boggy's answer more, seems he realizes as many do, a horse is not a horse, is not a horse. I'm sure he already knows what horse he's dealing with before he stands before thousands who paid to see his wonder and he puts his reputation on the line. He....or rather the DJ announcer, claims he thinks a non phisical approach is the only way to train a horse.<BR>Now I know much of it is mental, because 1400 pounds against 200 pounds, well the horse would have the advantage. If the horse was smart enough to know if he just threw your but off, then he would no longer have to contend with that bit in his mouth....but all he knows at the time, is the bit is the boss.<BR>...that being said, for hundreds of years, horses have been broken the traditional way, and something has to be said for that. And if one man can indeed break a horse only by whispering to it, or mental telepathy or whatever the hech else he uses, whether it takes him less than 30 minutes or all week, then kudos to him, he has a special gift.<BR>But you can quote me on this....it's HIS gift,...and horsebreaking will go on as always, the old fashioned way. I doubt we'll ever see farmers and ranchers and cowhands taking a green horse and start whispering to it......then again, I could be wrong...<BR>DS

Slayer, I wasn't offended by anything in your post, nor am I offended by your response to mine. I am, however, deeply disappointed in your response, because I consider you capable of better thinking. Your "so if your offended by the way the statement was posed" is, as is usually true of this tired old put-down technique, embarrassingly puerile. Whether or not you're one of those here who've so often advised me to develop a thicker skin, you'd be well advised to heed it. I wasn't trying to put you down, and you shouldn't feel obliged to discredit me in such a sophomoric manner. I didn't take your post as personal and certainly didn't intend mine as a personal slap at you. I assumed that I was addressing mature adults here � you and everyone else. I'm looking at a keyboard and screen, neither of which gives me any concept of what your monitor "sees" before it. So I always assume that I'm writing my words to mature men who're capable of understanding them as I intend them.<P>The point was, and is, and solid, and I stand by it, that what you quoted is a drastic and very misleading oversimplification of what Monty Roberts does, according to his book, no matter what the source of what you posted. I meant that not as a put-down of anybody, just as a note to alert everyone to the fact that there's more to the question you asked � is it BS? No one can accurately answer that question based only on that oversimplification of Roberts's claim and method. Whatever the source, what you cited as basis for your question is simply too little for saying or even guessing whether Roberts's claim or method is BS.<P>Please note that I didn't accuse you of oversimplifying, let alone of intentionally oversimplifying in the equally puerile "straw man" put-down (intentionally misrepresenting a claim, making it sound ridiculous and thus easy to discredit). I didn't and don't assume that was your intent.<P>I also stand by the point that I of course consider the main thrust of my post � that no one can intelligently or accurately evaluate what you don't see accurately and clearly. The life of the world is full of centuries-old "truths" being shown wrong, and it's quite possible that Mr Roberts has something of this nature to show the most experienced practitioner of the old, honored ways of training horses.<P>The fact that veteran horse-trainers don't know anything of Mr Roberts's method doesn't in and of itself mean that he's blowing smoke. To paraphrase [I think] Pete Rose, if he can do it, he ain't blowin' smoke. The smoke being blown is . . .

Slayer, why don't you go watch the demonstration, then report back here, to us who can't make it, whether<BR>(a) Roberts does more than whisper something into an untrained horse's ear,<BR>(b) his technique does indeed change the horse's behavior,<BR>(c) a kid can then ride that horse, and<BR>(d) his technique is something that he can train any horse person to do (not, IOW, a mystical "gift").<P>Won't that answer a LOT of questions that can't be answered in this thread as it's now going?<BR>

Ken Howell....I was only saying that if you thought the information being broadcasted all over the front range was inaccurate and over-simplified, I'm not the source of the over-simplification. As far as researching and verifying all the information we post on here as second hand, well you nad I both know that ain't gonna happen either. There is a daily barage of info and quotes from magazines and individuals that are great topics for discussion. Not only is it impossible to verify all the info as accurate, but impractical as well. Kinda like the history lessons about Abe Lincoln or George Washington or JFK........most of have come to understand that was the "pretty side" they was showing us as children. There are AT LEAST two sides to every story, or method in this case. I was only creating a basis for discussion on the one being presented over the radio stations here, of which I think you agree deserved my candor,...even you agree tghe broadcast was at best...oversimplified. <P>My stance in my original post , if you read between the lines was, "oh, come on now....an un-broke horse ridden in less tha 30 minutes!you gotta be kidding me." But I also left it open to the many who know of this man and his claim. You say you readthe book......many have. And even more saw the movie on the same subject, including myself.<BR>You are probably correct in that Mr. Roberts does most of what he says he can........I call that his "gift", and stick to my claim that I doubt few will take up "whispering" in the training of there horses, but rather stick to the age old, proven methods handed down to them.<P>Hats off to Mr. Roberts....and while I would love to take you up on your offer and go see first hand the "Whisperer", I'll have to politely decline. CSU has a top rate equestrian event here monthly....only minutes from my house, and I haven't found the time to go to one yet. I doubt I will be traveling to Cheyenne to see this one.<P>...and thanks for the lesson on tough skin, but I already learned that one first hand as most of these guys know! I think you read into my poist what you wanted to, as I was not trying to attack you in anyway.<P>you have a good day, Ken Howell....<BR>DS

Thanks heaps, piles, and bunches, Slayer! I knew you had the best in you. Never doubted it for a nanosecond.<P>As for your last ("I think you read into my poist what you wanted to, as I was not trying to attack you in anyway."), I read NOT what I wanted to see in it, but what some of your phrasing too often means. Without impugning your motives � which I couldn't possibly imagine or guess � I sought to point out that attributing pique or offense to someone's reason for his statements is usually a lead-off technique intended to discredit what that person says. Unfortunately, it has become a clich� lead-off on these forums so densely populated with oversensitive giant egos. Sometimes it's justified, but not always. I wasn't accusing you but rather trying to alert you and others to the way that technique comes across. IOW, used as an "argument" technique, it implies that since the person you're answering has spoken out of offense, the logic and soundness of his post are automatically discredited to some extent.<P>... just another reason for extreme caution with the use of clich�s (and many similes too, for that matter). They often convey meanings that you don't intend.<P>It is never my intent to appeal to or criticize the worst that's unfortunately part of all our natures. My basic intent and purpose are to appeal to the best that we're all capable of. In all these forums, there's an unfortunate tendency to (a) "see" the worst in each other, whether intended or not, and (b) to respond from the worst in our nature, not the best, that we're ALL capable of.<P>This is why I especially (and deeply) appreciate your last post. Thanks again!

There's a guy down in central Texas that puts on demonstrations where he takes an unbroken horse and is riding him and plow reining him in 30 minutes.I've seen him twice,but can't remember his name.<P>Both times he had a decent horse to work with and - both times - the horse he had drawn at his previous demo was real waspy.Most well bred horses can be saddled and ridden without much fuss in a small round pen if they have had some exposure to humans before.<P>They hurt you when you get them out in the pasture,not in the round pen.That's a general rule in my experience.Let me or BOGGY pick him a horse and we will see if he dont quit whispering and start cussing!<P>------------------<BR>Boone and Crockett was rednecks

.....easy there, Ken....your making me keep my Webster's next to my computer with that vocabulary of your! <P>Gene, I'd say with the horse you are Boggy would pick for him, he'd still be whispering, ....cause he wouldn't won't folks to hear the cussing and hurt his good reputation.<P>....I saw the Horse Whisperer, and was deeply moved. The man has a gift.....just as the man Gene spoke of in Texas...and another man who delivers the gospel in La. but leads his service with some horse whispering of his own. These men have a special way no doubt, but I wonder how practical it is to assume this manner of horse training can be used with any reasonable degree of effectivness by the average person. To think that the average Joe could attend Mr. Roberts performance and come away with any real horse whispering ability would be, to use Ken's phrase, "over simplifying" the probable results.....<BR>DS

Gene, I've seen that guy work a horse too and for the life of me I can't remember his name.<P>I don't know what Monty Roberts can or can't do. I have neither seen the movie nor read his book. Some people have a gift with animals and you me or any body else can't fully learn it from a book. We might can get close but we won't have the gift. Maybe even they don't really know what it is. I could tell you stories about what I saw an old guy do with four stock dogs more than once that I saw and still don't believe.<P>I do think I know enough about horses to tell you that no matter how they are trained or by who one of these days if you ride them enough you will find your self hollering Woah you Son of a B**ch Woah!! <BR>BCR

Some "little" distinctions can make BIG differences.<P>FWIW, Monty Roberts entitled his book "The Man Who LISTENS to Horses" [emphasis mine], not "talks" or "whispers" to horses. In his book, he describes a technique of specific body-language communication with horses, based on their behavior patterns, that is the basis and nearly the totality of his technique. Basing judgment of his technique on whispering alone, therefore, is logically illegitimate. Fair and legitimate assessment requires first establishing, accurately, what it is that he actually does. Judging what he doesn't do, whatever the judgment reached, says nothing whatever about what he actually does.<P>What he describes and explains in the book makes a world more and better sense than the terse allegation that he "whispers to horses" (which reduces his case to the ridiculous at the start). If I hum "Dixie" while I take good aim and hold a good sight picture while I touch my set trigger, the humming has nothing to do with how many prairie dogs I can pop with that rifle. Yet the pattern of this post exactly parallels the allegation that "Ken Howell claims he can kill prairie dogs by humming 'Dixie.'"<P>Also, "the movie" (I assume the reference is to Robert Redford's "The Horse Whisperer") is not about Monty Roberts at all, as far as I can determine (I haven't seen it). It's based on a novel � a fictional story about fictional characters � by Nicholas Evans. I checked the production credits for reference to Monty Roberts as the technical adviser � nope. The movie's "equine technical advisor" was Curt Pate. Nothing in the movie's listings and reviews referred to Monty Roberts, directly or obliquely. Judging Monty Roberts's work and claims on the basis of the movie seems, to me, much like scolding or praising Ken Howell for something that Ken Warner or William Dean Howells wrote. (Don't laugh � I've been mistaken, more than once, for the author of something that Ken Warner, Ken Walters, or Ken Waters wrote. Apparently, some readers don't read or remember much past the "Ken" part of the name.)<P>If the reference to a technique not to be learned from a book is aimed at my mention of Roberts's book, either meant that way or taken that way, please note well that at no point did Ken Howell ever say or imply anything that could be used as a legitimate target for that remark. The remark strikes me as meaningless at best, possibly a cheap shot at worst. The value of the book here is that it fairly and accurately presents Monty Roberts's claims and techniques � which hasn't yet been the case in this thread.<P>I did mean (and still do) that what the book says about what Monty Roberts does, how he does it, and what the results are, are far more legitimate bases for judging his claims than a twisted reference to merely whispering something � implying that whispering into a horse's ear is all there is to it.<P>Characterizing something in ridiculously inaccurate terms automatically guarantees that any evaluation based on that ridiculous presentation of it will conclude that it is indeed ridiculous. It is an ancient and successful technique but long regarded by those who recognize it for what it is as cheap and sleazy.<P>My point here is not for acceptance or approval of Monty Roberts's technique. My point is for fair characterization and logical discussion of Monty Roberts's actual technique. So far, neither has been the case here.<P>Therefore, nothing said here adds anything to anyone's fund of potentially useful, sound knowledge. Josh Billings said it right � "It's better not to know so much than it is to know so many things that ain't so."<p>[This message has been edited by Ken Howell (edited June 04, 2001).]

Darn it Ken....I was sipping a cold one, watching the Avs against the Devils,....it's intermission, so I peek at the 'puter, just chilling ya know.....and dang it, you make me think too much! I'm gonna be looking for a light hearted post from you soon, just to show us all your a regular ol' Joe! <P>Boggy......your dead on again!.....just two days ago I was there....saying Whoa you son of a b-tch!!!! <BR>DS

This ain't gone he'p ya much, Slayer! You're just gone hafta handle them cold ones all by yo'se'f. FWIW, however, I'm about to take a cold one out of the fridge (have a special one just for cold ones, right close to my desk) and will pop the top with you in mind.<P>This morning, I dug out the Monty Roberts book and skimmed it real fast but didn't find any mention of whispering. LOTS about watching and doing, WITHOUT a spoken word.<P>At the end is a chapter or appendix with a set of specific step-by-step DO-IT-YOURSELF instructions � which suggests to me that he thinks anybody can do it. (I think you'd have to know some about harsses already. Or is it "Horaces?")<P>Read that part of the book word by word. Ne'er a word about whispering.<P>I think the real treat would be a trip to Cheyenne and watching that disc-jockey trying to whisper something into a wild cayuse's ear AND THEN TRYING TO RIDE IT.<P>A friend of mine has had a hard time trying to get blurb-writers to stop calling his scope mount "a modern claw mount," which it is NOT. But they persist, because they want to capitalize on the reputation of the classic claw mount. (Al's mount is better.) Maybe those advertising Roberts's demonstration are similarly trying to capitalize on listeners' familiarity with at least the title of the Robert Redford movie.<P>Have fun and stay sober (whichever works better 4 U). Never can tell when (a) you're gonna hafta THINK or (b) you'd rather not. �o)<BR>

I also read Montys book,it really was good.<BR>I have seen both methods of breaking horses.<BR>I worked with an old coyboy that told me how they did it when he worked a ranch(the right way)the hard way as he learned.But he also said sometimes they just didnt have the time to do it another way.<BR>As he got older he heard about some of the new methiods being used and he relized that if he wanted to keep working with horses he was going to have to find a smater way.<BR>He said he opened up his old mind and started looking at some of these new ideas and then slowly started using them.He came away with a better understanding of the animals he had always worked with. But he said it was not easy to admit that there was a better way.<BR>I also saw first hand some younger cowboys bring in some horses that they were to break.These were 2 year olds that hadnt been handled .After they were run into a trailer and brought to the ranch they took out the ruffest acting one--so they could show everyone how it was done--they turned him out in a arena and roped him, then they beat him till he was close enough to tie to a post ,the post had some plywood so he wouldnt get his legs tangled.So they keep on beating this horse teling everyone how he will calm down and be good her real soon--we will take the fight outa him --the horse kept running his head into the wood and then pull back then into the wood again all the while these idots were using the whips on the horse.They left him with no way to go.<BR>They got so many people riled up they finally left him alone but he was dead and hanging on the rope the next morning when I came in.<BR>His head was so swollen and beat up it was to hard to look at.<BR>I often wondered what kind of a horse he would of been.To be broke in a manner like that--<BR>Theses are two extrems but it does show(I think )that there are better ways to do things,and some times the old way are not better.Just something to think about.<BR>

Hi MD4 good to see you. That is an ugly picture and I hate to say it but I've seen it too. Personally I think the idiots ought to be tied up an horse whipped too. I believe in a firm hand and making a horse do what you want him to do and sometimes it involves getting his attention with a little pain but not brutality. Even unconscious brutality as in your story when it appears they didn't really know what they were doing. Every horse has his own personality and sometimes you have to back off and come from a different direction to get them to do what you want.<BR>Most of the old rough methods were developed when horses were dirt cheap. Like going price for a green horse was ten bucks. You could afford to waste one now and then. Not so today. I am not a professional horse trainer and won't claim to be. Just think I know a few things that work for me from using cow ponies for the last fifty years or so.<BR>BCR

Boggy,you are right about that.<BR> All horses are different and it does take a step back sometimes. <BR>We all have ways that work for us,I just wanted to point out two extreams,and hope people understand that there is a middle ground.<BR>Dont get the impression that I have never wacked my horses before ,somethmes they do need some prodding.I have been in some spots that the only way out was to make them do it and I was sure happy I had my spurs on.<BR>I have seen some pretty mean things being done to horses.When it gets to that point its time to step back like you said and find another way. Dont get me wrong I am not a softy,I expect my horses to work hard for me. I bought a hores one time that I grew to hate LOL I really did think about shooting him and leaving him to rot.I ended up about giving him away just so I wouldnt loose my temper and shoot the damg thing.<BR>While I would never have to temperment to do what these other guys do ,I think it can be done.Thats all the point I was trying to make.<BR>I sure didnt take it that you were saying to beat a hores like that.<P>

....personally...I'd just as soon have a horse I couldn't ride if I had to beat him like that to try and break him.<P>I was thinking more of the method I used to break my first horse....it was ten years ago...and the old rancher down the street sold me an old nag for the kids to ride for $450......but only if I would take his little burro and to young untrained horse as well.....he insisted on clearing the barn!<BR>Well, I thought they'd make me the $450 back in soap if the worst case scenario turned out, so I took the four for $450! ....and believe me, that's about all they were worth! <P>Anyway, the nicest of the buch was gentle, but never had been ridden. So me, be a little younger and dunber, and wanting real bad to be a cowboy, I made up my mind to break her myself. So I mounted up.......for about 2 seconds! <BR>....they second day I probably made it close to my 8 second official ride ...with my hand high in the air for stlye points, OF COURSE! <P>Well, by the end of the week, I was so black and blue, I wasn't sure it was worth it, but being hard-headed, I decided another round was in order, and to my amazement, that horse rode me as though she had been broke for years......it was as if she decided it was futile to resist the dummy that kept coming back for more punishment. She turned out to be a good family horse, and we enjoyed her and the nag for a couple of years before we moved back in town.<P>Now, those little ponies pail in comparison to the steeds I have now....but my point being, I think affection and consistency go along way with a horse. know you have to be stern as well, but I find them similiar to a dog, in that they respond to rewards and routines. But I know little of horses for sure......but these two I have don't know that....because when I whispered in their ear the other night, I told them I was an old hat at it, and I would prevail!!! [img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubb/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubb/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]<BR>DS

"I made up my mind to break her myself. So I mounted up.......for about 2 seconds! <BR>....they second day I probably made it close to my 8 second official ride ...with my hand high in the air for stlye points, OF COURSE! <P>Well, by the end of the week, I was so black and blue, I wasn't sure it was worth it, but being hard-headed, I decided another round was in order, and to my amazement, that horse rode me as though she had been broke for years..."<P>I thought you guys were talking horses now you go and discribe my first wife!<P>Sorry, I had to do it! Bend<P>