Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Which lever action rifle and caliber would be the deadliest?

The idea of a big bore lever action appeals to me.

I live in grizzly country, and I ride horses. A scope-less lever action that I could throw up in a flash for a close shot is something I've toyed with getting for a while now.

I'll confess my bias, right off. I don't like bullets that are short for their caliber. I think their penetration (to coin a word my students often use) - sucks. So far, I think the deadliest lever action combo for big bears would be the Browning with a .300 magnum ( Winchester or WSM) with a .200 grain TSX Barnes or a 220 grain Nosler. As you can tell - I'm a believer in sectional density. My own backyard penetration tests have confirmed my prejudice.

Yet...I read about rifles firing 45-70's or 45-90's or 50-110's or 50 Alaskan's...and I wonder. How would they fare in a backyard penetration test. Would they be better for big bears up close? I lean towards the modern high pressure cartridges that the Browning design can handle...but I don't like being limited to one rifle.

Tell me your stories, tell me your choices...convince me if you can - that I need to buy a big bore lever action. I need to be convinced to buy something new, something "lever" - the question is what will it be?

Thanks!

I'm writing to my own post here - duoh!

Could a Browning be rebarred to handle a .375 or 414 wildcat based on necked-up 300 mag?

Despite what Freud might say about me - the idea of a big hole in the end of the barrel just appeals to me! LOL!

Take a look at the ballistics of the 405 winchester. The 348 has a very good reputation on bears as well. And in the situations you're talking about there wouldnt be much wrong with the 358 either.

Winchester '86 Extra Lightweight 45-70 from CDNN and handloads OR custom .411 Hawk '95 from z-hat.com.

A Marlin 1895G with either WWG or XS ghost rings sights pushing a 405 grain Kodiak or 400 grain Barnes Original 1800 fps. Loves a scabbard, quicker handling, more of a stopper than the 300 Win Mag ever could be and I just don't trust all that "pot metal" in the Browning BLRs.

As for sectional density being the end all for penetration, in tests the .458" 300 grain Nosler Partition protected point (SD .204) driven 2100 fps has out penetrated the .375 H&H shooting 300 grain bullets (SD .305) 2550 fps.

So, even the Marlin 1895G pushing the Noslers 2100 fps would be a good choice with somewhat less recoil than the 400 grain loads.

Hey Jackfish,

I find those penetration tests you mentioned really interesting and suprising. Can you direct me to them - so I can read more?

To follow up where JackFish left off, Brian Pearce wrote a nice article a while back about taking the Marlin 1895 in 45-70 to Africa for a Cape Buffalo hunt. His ammo of choice was a CorBon 45-70 load, which features their 405 grain solid copper jacketed bullet (a.k.a. the penetrator) moving out at 1650 fps.

Brian proceeded to shoot the Buff at around 80 yards if memory serves. The first shot went completely through the Buff and entered into a matriarch buff standing broadside behind the bull. The 405 CorBon went through her as well killing her on the spot. Brian finished the bull buff by cranking in two more rounds, one of which was an ass ender that penetrated completely length wise through the bull.

Point is, its not about sectional density, which by the way is somewhat archaic as bullets are constructed so much better today, especially these big bore flat nosers with weight behind em.

The 300 Win or WSM is not even remotely in the same class as a stopper. The 444 Marlin loaded with the CorBon 305 penetrator has as much, if not more, crushing/stopping power inside 100 yards than a 375 H&H. This one jets out of a 20" barrel at close to 2200 fps.

Either 45-70 or 444 Marlin in a Win or Marlin lever heaving quality projectiles like the ones above will stop any bear in its tracks. The nice by product is they make great saddle guns and can be put into action very quickly with rapid follow ups.

Just doesn't get any better. Most underestimate the power of these Big Bores, but whatever is on the receiving end of them is certain for termination.

Just personal bias, but I'd go for the Marlin 1895 (your choice, straight 95, the G or the GS) in 45-70. You can get 45-70 loads just about anywhere, which is something you can't really do with .444s, .348s, .358s, and certainly not with any of the customs like the Alaskans.

You can also get the .45-70s loaded from the relative lightweight 300 gr. and 405 gr. factory loaded cupcakes up to the "oh, Momma" class Buffalo Bore and CorBon hot loads. If the .45-70 made it's reputation as a buffalo and bear cartridge "back in the day" with ballistics similar to the standard cupcake factory loads, it ought to do just fine with the modern hot loads.

Besides, there's just something comforting about knowing that your "back-up" has well over 100 years of proven track record behind it in just such situations.

My 2 cents: how many big bears, elk, moose, were killed in the last century plus by big, wide, slow, very heavy lead bullets? Big bullets make big holes, penetrate well, do a good job of dumping energy deep inside. have incredible knockdown power. My choice: stainless Marlin 45-70 ( and I have a .338 and a couple 30-06's when I need long range.

I have to say that the 1895 marlin in 45-70 cal would be my choice for close range work. As for bullets, I agree with the Barnes and Nosler choices if you want to have your bullets go nose to tail inside a Grizzly{in an up close situation, nose to tail is the exact shot your going to get.} . I know I'm going to catch SH.... for saying this, but in a hunting situation where a broadside shot is more the norm, I would be alot happier with a bonded type lead bullet such as a Horady interloc, espesially if you don't hit bone on the way in { ie. behind the shoulder shot.} I have also done the back yard test in sand banks with the barnes bullets and they almost look like you could reload and shoot them again, {Not my first choice for a bullet that may go through heart and lung type stuff.} I'm more into short wide blood trails as apposed to long and skinny. Just my two bits.

I plan on getting a 45-70 marlin for hunting elk in the thick stuff were short shots and possible close encounters of the grizz kind are the norm. I figured I would use a heavy hard cast bullet with the largest meplat that will function through the action. If you take a look at leverguns.com and beartooth bullets.com they have lots of info geared toward the lever enthusiast. Some of the same posters here frequent those sites as well.

Why not go all the way and get the 1895 in 450 marlin. It ups the 45-70 by a good bit.

How's that?

Thanks everyone, I'm really enjoying reading about the information you're providing. Big bore lever actions are something I know nothing about.

Am I right, when I assume that the 45-70 can be reloaded to a higher velocity with the same bullet than the 450 Marlin can in the Marlin lever action?

You know not what you speak of. Loaded to the same pressures, these two are ballistic twins. Not much imagination went into creating the 450 Marlin as it's predecessor was the 458x2 American created in the early 1960s by Frank Barnes. The only difference is the Marlin case is ever so sligtly longer and its belt thickness is .109" wide as opposed to the 375 H&H class magnum belt, which is .082".

The 458x2 American, 450 Marlin and the 45-70 all do the same thing out of a tube feed lever gun when loaded to equal pressures. They would all do the same thing when loaded to max pressures for bolt gun use or if they were fired in the Ruger No. 1.

In a nutshell, there is no difference except the 45-70 is 130 years old and widely recognized as the best of the bunch in terms of reloading data and commercial ammunition availability. All will push 405 grain bullets out of a Marlin lever rifle at approximately 1900 fps, which will deliver some stout recoil. In a bolt or Ruger No.1 they can develop around 200 fps more velocity with the 405 class bullet and make close to 4,000 ft-lbs of ME.

Now how is the 450 Marlin better?

rossi, actually all do pretty much the same thing in tube fed lever guns when each is loaded to their potential. To reach that potential in lever guns the 450 Marlin is actually loaded to a higher pressure than the 45-70, due to less case capacity and a smaller cross-sectional area interfacing the bolt face.

Jackfish,

What was that pressure difference? 40Kpsi for the 45-70 due to its larger cartridge base dia. vs 42Kpsi or 44Kpsi for the Marlin with the smaller .513" cartridge base.

Not to answer for Jackfish...The Modern 45-70 is rated at 40,000 CUP and the SAAMI for the 450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI.When the same bullet and powder are used the 45-70 will hold a "Slight" velocity advantage over the 450 Marlin.

The difference in case capacity of the 450 Marlin and the 45-70 with Winchester brass when filled to the top with water is 6.8 grains and it diminishes with Starline and Remington brass.

There is nothing the 450 Marlin can do the 45-70 in a modern firearm cannot either.There basically equal in a sense but different.Both great guns and cartridges.Jackfish is on the money again.

Jayco

It is interesting how over a few short years things have been overlooked. The 450 was brought on so that people that didn't reload could get the performance from the 1895 Marlin , that folks that do reload can get. Hornady put the oversize belt on the case to insure that someone didn't slip one of those rounds into a trapdoor.

Read the articles entitled "444: America's most versatile big bore" @ www.beartoothbullets.com and then draw your own conclusions. --2MG

Is a bear going to notice the slight difference in case pressure when the hammer drops. Go with the one that has the most readily available ammo, or if your reloading, the most load data to play with. 45-70 130 years of hunters can't be wrong. Can they????

The conclusions might be a little different if Marshall had spent as much time on doing the same kind of testing with the 45-70. But then it was obvious he was intent on supporting a certain hypothesis.

45-70+P 405 Grain WLNGC
SKU: 45-70+P405WLNGC

Caliber: 45-70 +P
Bullet Wt: 405 Grain WLNGC
Velocity: 2050 fps
No. of Rounds: 20



Grizzly Cartridge Company




I have shot these round's made by Mike ( owner of Grizzly Cartridge Company) in my Marlin GS ..

I think rossi is referring to jacketed bullets. Hard cast bullets can be driven faster than jacketed bullets of the same weight due to less bearing surface (lube grooves, and no jacket and a wide metplat makes them shorter) and softer material (quenched lead alloy vs. copper, pure and alloys). So, around 1900 fps with a 405 grain jacketed bullet is about right, although one can probably push to 2000 fps with some rifles in a 24"+ barrel.

You right i am sure Jackfish .And since i am shooting them out of an 18 1/2 inch barrel there no dought slower then the 2050.
More like 1800+ or around there. thay are a fair cast bullet he use's .

All his loaded ammo is very well made .


Pottsy

bcbrian, I've been talking to the folks at z-hat.com about this very thing. The Browning BLR can be rebored/rifled/chambered for the .375 and .411 Hawk rounds, which are '06 based. I would bet that the .300 win mag BLR could be similarly treated, and that sounds like one hell of a lever gun!

cobrad

About one week after i got my new GS Marlin .I picked up a Browning stainless then sold it becouse it was a shorty mag type and picked up a full length 300 Win Mag in a BLR

I was thinking at that time about rechambering it to 458 win mag ..

I already have one in a M 77 Ruger and i was just thinking
it would be one hell of a lever in 458 Win Mag..

after taking it to the gunsmith and leaving it there for about 3 month's he called and told me all the part's i wanted were there..New front sight new rear sight Etc Etc.
He told me the barrel was there . it was a plain old Dougless
I asked him if there was a chance i could go 50-110 with the rifle ..Dead Silance......I am sure you could Mr #### but we have your .458 barrel here and it's not returnable..
So he has ordered a .510 diameter barrel and we shall see
what happen's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> i ordered a three leaf rear sight and a banded front sight... i will be getting a new recoil pad one of those decelerator pad type's mine is a pistol grip vertion BLR

For the money it's about the cheapest route you can go to get a 50-110 .. the rifle and barrel and the reamer job run around 1100.00 beat's the winchester or browning's out
for cost..
And there's no tub work just a little feeding work and that's just the box is all

martinpotts that sounds like one fine lever rifle. I am leaning toward the Browning myself. I like the box mag, and it feels smoother and quicker to me to cycle a lever action with a pistol grip stock vs a straight one. Let us know how that project works out when it is finished.

If you want to rely on a lever gun in the field the Browning BLR might not be it. Parts is parts. And many of them on the Brownings ain't that good. Snap, crackle, pop.

You guys really have me thinking about a new way to spend money I don't have - darn you anyways!

A .375 H&H or .416 Remington Magnum or .458 Winchester Magnum in a long-action Browning Lever...hmmm...
Can't think of any reason a .300 Winchester based gun couldn't be rebarreled in any of those. I'm not sure I'd really want to shoot it much though...but a guy can dream.

mpotts, you are to blame! The idea of a big bore based on the BLR magnum action was more than I could take. I just found a NIB 7 mag BLR with the rounded pistol grip and forend. Best looking lever I've come across, and at $650 shipped, well, its' on the way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Now, what shall we rebarrel/chamber this baby for??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For the same money you could of got one already chambered in the 450, with the box magazine it would open the option of pointier bullets like those available from Northfork.
those lightning models don't have the same fell and balance as the original or 81 models.

In this case it was simple asthetics that made my decision. Pro's and con's to each make and model, but I find the rounded pistol grip and forend to be particularly elegant. Have already fired off a message to a 'smith about a rebore/chamber to 416 taylor. Could make for a rather exotic lever gun.

I guess I was spoiled by the handling characteristics of the first 2 models of the BLR. I looked at one of the lightnings in 708 but with that fatter forend it just didn't feel right to me.
Turning that one of yours into a 416 taylor sounds like a really interesting deal, hope to read all about it when its done.

As mentioned, the 45-70, 300gr partiton load outpenetrated the 375H&H 300gr. Saw the data myself. And the 300gr partition was not a "full potential" load for the Marlin 45-70. That same cartridge has been used for 1 shot broadside full penetration kills on buffs. I would have full confidence in it for Grizzley if confronted. Have used heavy hard cast in 45-70, and could not get good accuracy. Partitions are very accurate in mine.

cobrad

It can be rechambered to almost any case you can think of ...
..save the super big dog's 378 weatherby ..460 etc

i went 50-110 becouse i make a really good .510 diameter
jacketed 10 deg tapered bullet in it..

But a 458 Win Mag would be cheaper for brass and buying .458 diameter bullet.


Then again you could alway's rebarrel it and rechamber it to somthing more exotic like a 461 Gibb's



Or a 12.7x44MM Rimmed Danish



Or even one of the Lazzeroni type shell's like the 10.57 Meteor



Your's is your dream buddy make the best of the dream <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




PA Bullet's

Well ,that is if you go strictly by the reloading books that specify 28,000 CUP for a 45-70 in a marlin or the 35,000 that a 450 marlin will get you.I'm sure some people can/will push the 45-70 close to 450 marlin specs,but I would rather be reloading to specs rather than pushing the limit and end up with the same result.max that 3diff books show for 45-70 is about 1750-1800fps with 400 grain. 450marlin shows 1900-2000 with the 400 grain.

The data in my '04 Hodgdon "Annual Manual" lists a load for the 45-70 pushing a 400 gr bullet 2002 fps @ 39,400 cup. This load is specifically for the Marlin rifle. It also shows the 450 marlin doing 2023 fps @ 42,600 cup. Both potent, but redundant it would appear. I would like to see the data showing the 300 gr 45-70 out penetrating the 300 gr 375 H&H. Were they both shooting partitions? It would seem to me the 375, with its' greater SD and velocity should have greater penetration provided the bullet held together. If the 375 H&H will indeed work through the BLR, that may be my choice. Adequate power for a bear rifle, with the potential to make a 300 yd rifle on other game.

375 H&H seems like it would be too long. The 375 Taylor would work though, I think.

Sorry, you really need to get out more.

The BLR action are mag action not long mag action
mag action's will handle ... 7 MM ren Mag 300 Win Mag
338 Win Mag 458 Win Mag ..Long Mag action will handle
404 Jeffery -375 H&H- 378 Weatherby -416 Rigby
460 Weatherby Etc ........The BLR Mag action will handle the normal mag length round's NOT the Large mag action round's

I love these ideas!
What would a .375 based on a .300 Winchester be called? Is it already named? What about a 416 on the same? I wonder what velocities they would generate?

Well you could always neck the 458 to .423 and call it a
404 jeffery's short...

reloadersnest.com shows a 35-300 win mag pushing a 250 gr bullet at 2800 fps. I wonder how it would do with a 300 gr. I've also looked at a .416 Taylor-a necked down 458 win-which shows a 350 gr bullet @2424 fps. Pac-Nor barrels chambers both, and Redding makes dies. Both run a head dia. of .532 and the 458 case is slightly shorter that the .300 win mag. I believe they will work. Martinpotts, are you a 'smith, does this all sound correct?

Two more ideas (like those of martinpotts and cobar). Use older '81 long action (be sure no plastic gear teeth) for either .458 Win or .425 Express (.300 Win necked up for .423 (Jeffery) bullets). Check barrel diameter to possibly just rebore a .300. An extra couple of magazines in your pocket couldn't be totally bad idea. A couple of holes under the recoil pad filled counter weight also might be something to think about. Stay as close to the orginal case that the magazine was designed for. Magazine alterations are always a bad idea.

Oh No!!! What have you done??!! Have you waved the red flag of 450 Marlin verses 45-70 in front of the faces of the convinced? Please, oh please, oh please don't start this up again. It's like a baptist (me) trying to talk an Assembly of God person out of tongues. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, its more like getting people to face the facts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jackfish if it was about getting folks to face facts, the 405 would be the main topic. It'll out do any factory cartridge you can sanely load thru a JM Browning or Marlin designed gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ranch 13- not totally true since you can get a 300gr .444 up to 2200 in a full rifle (not carbine) barrel, ie; .405 ballistics. But for the purpose originally asked, we need to step past the rising bar locking (Win & Marlin m86,92,93,94,95) actions to accomplish any more. That leaves us with the 'turn bolt' or cam-block levers (Sako Finnwolf, Win 88, BLR or Sav 99). The Sako, m88 and m99 lose since they were never made in any length other than short.

Well if you want to talk pushing things, my 405 gets its best accuracy with the 300 gr jacketed bullets when they jump out at 2300-2350. Hogdon's has pressure tested data to 2400, and although I haven't seen the need to try them the woodleigh 400 gr bullet will go to 1900 fps. And not to mention the best BC's of the pointier design of the .411 bullets over the flatnosed varieties required by the tube magazines.

of these calibers, the deadliest one is the one I have with me that day! If you can tell the difference between something shot with a 300gr 405, 444, 0r 45-70, or even 350gr .450 you have a pretty good eye

What did I do with my ABACAS? 2000 years of Chinese can't be wrong. I'm getting rid of my Pentium 4.

Hello All,
Big bore lever action the best. About six months ago I acquired a Browning M71 that had been rebarreled to 50-110. Been wanting a 50-110 for over twenty years! Read the book from Veral Smith, of LBT. He is a man that distains theories and likes field proven data, hard facts. Bottom line big diameter, flat point bullet, proper hardness,@$%@@$& awsome killing power, great penetration at proper distances. Finally have stopped working on a 500gr. maximum load at approximately 1900fps with 2" groups at 100 yds off a bench. Now will begin on a 350gr. load. Not much reloading data for the 50-110 in a modern rifle. What ever big bore caliber you decide on you will find that the terminal end will amaze you when pushed to their upper limits and give you a new vision of a bigger slower bullet compared to a lighter much faster bullet. Like others have said there is 100 years or more of experience here with these old cartridges and anything 100 or 150yds out is hit real hard, second or more shots may be needed as with even the 460 Wheatherby. Recoil is punishing but you save these max loads for hunting and burn a few now and then to keep familiarized with the whole thing. Reduced loads are a lot of fun with out as much recoil and help practice in positions away from a bench.
Good luck

USER name KEV ..Own's a 50-110 Winchester

He get's much diffrent result's with his ..

i supplyed him with the bullet's 525 grain
the 1900 FPS with a 500 grain bullet is off the mark by a long shot.

If i were you i would PM both AL and KEV both own 50-110 winchester's
who ever this person is . is off the mark for the max load.

Or maybe he own's a 1886 Mod made in that year

Got 1900fps for the 525 gr also. but none the less 1900 for the 500gr. Both showed signs of being a max load. But I pour my own 500grs. The load is what it is and is not off the mark

I did state that I was using a Browning M71. Not made in 1886, didn't have'm then

Howdy,

Browning may/will be chambering the latest WSM the 325 in thier BLR. That may suit you or not????

8mmwapiti

Hello Again,

Went to Browning's web site. They are chambering the 325 WSM also the 450 Marlin. You choose! I like the 325 as it will double as a great elk rifle with plenty of long range potential.

8mmwapiti

Have heard there are steel parts available to replace non-steel parts in the Browning BLR. I have also read that a plastic bushing in this rifle can be replaced with a bronze one. Can anyone shed some light on this? I am still considering converting my 7 mag to either a 300 win based wildcat, or preferably to the 416 Taylor. I have recieved mixed opinions from the dozen or so 'smiths I have contacted about the use of the BLR as a dangerous game rifle. Most say no.

If you haven't talked to them already your best bet for the work you want on the BLR would be Zhat in Casper.

Screw the BLR! Get a '71, '86, 444ss, or 1895. You know, a REAL big bore lever, not some poser.

"Just recently I built two big bores on the BLR action a 358 and a 416. There were no plastic parts in the action proper. I looked on the parts list that only place such a bushing might be is inside the bolt on the firing pin. This has never been an issue in our shop, but it would be not problem at all to check the parts and make replacement bushings out of metal to insure long life and durability. The rifles we have built on the BLR have not had any problems with recoil and are totaly relaible.
From your comments I would recommend the 416 Taylor, it will fit the action will and feed correctly, and magzine length will not be an issue."
WHEEE! Just got this email from Z-Hat Custom this morning. I had recieved recommendations from a couple of other gunsmiths that if anyone would know, this was the guy. Ranch13 I had spoken with them a while ago about a different rifle, but had not addressed the BLR project in detail. Thanks for the reminder. It looks like my project has been resurected. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Figrued ZHat could give you straight skinny on it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Most folks just don't understand the BLR gives the best of 2 worlds. Handling characteristics of a traditional levergun, and the rotary locking bolt of the vaunted bolt guns.
Looking forward to reading how it all turns out.

BCBrian �

If its stopping power you want, get a Marlin 1895 in .45-70. For maximum penetration load it up with a heavy hardcast like the Garret 540g Hammerheads. I�ve found a 460g Cast Performance WFNGC at 1812fps outpenetrates anything else I�ve tried with one exception � the 500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid at 1554fps. The hardcast was captured in the 9th water jug while the AGS Tungsten Solid exited the side of the 9th and buried itself in the earth berm beyond.

I hunt with a North Fork 350g bonded bullet at 2183fps. It�s trajectory is sufficient to take elk at 250 yards with ease (-10.4� and over 1600fpe retained). The bullet is like a Speer Trophy Bonded with a bonded lead core up front and a solid shank in back, but with grooves that reduce friction and pressure which in turn allow higher velocities than would otherwise be possible with this design. The performance of this bullet on the one elk I�ve taken showed it was one tough bullet. I would be just as confident using this bullet against big bears as I would any other.

To demonstrate the power these loads provide, let me explain about the setup we used for water jug penetration testing. We used plastic sawhorses set about 5 feet apart. On top of these we placed two pieces of 5/16� plywood, each about a foot wide and 8 feet long. The top piece was slightly longer and we let the front of it stick out about 8� over the bottom piece. (In other words, the front 8� of the top piece was unsupported.) We used Minute Maid �Family Size� orange juice jugs as targets, setting them one against the next with the lead jug aligned with the front edge of top piece of plywood (the unsupported part). The North Fork load was the first we tested. The bullet blew up 6 water jugs, expanded into a perfect mushroom 0.800� in diameter, and retained 341g or 97.4%. When we went up to inspect the damage we discovered the top piece of plywood was missing a chunk out of the unsupported part. The missing chunk was roughly the same size and outline as the bottom of the first water jug, about 4-3/4� by 6-3/4�. That�s right, the force of the water jug exploding outward simply blew a chunk out of the 5/16� thick plywood!

In terms of jug performance, here�s the data for several bullets:
Jugs, Retained Weight %, Final Diameter, Bullet @ Velocity
9+, 100% assumed, 0.458� assumed, 500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid @ 1554fps
9, 76.5%, 0.582�, 460g Cast Performance WFNGC @ 1812fps
8, 87.6%, 0.665�, 350g Speer JFN @ 2147fps
6, 97.4%, 0.800�, 350g North Fork @ 2189fps
6, 70.5%, 0.589�, 300g Speer UCHP

Thanks for all of your considered opinions, I enjoyed reading them greatly.

I still don't know what I'll do.

A part of me, would like to re-barrel a Browning Lever action from .300 Winchester Magnum to a .458 Winchester Magnum. My re-loading books show that it would be a considerably better "stopper" than either a 45-70 or a 450 Marlin, and it would have the advantage of allowing you to carry 300 grainers in another clip, and allow the use of pointed bullets, thus giving a guy a much greater selection of available bullets. A Barnes 600 grainer at around 2000 fps seems pretty intimidating - at both ends!

But then, when my testosterone leaves my brain, and more rationality creeps in - I wonder why I'd ever need more than a 220 grain bullet fired out of a .300 Winchester Magnum anyways? Plus those fast .30 or .325 caliber bullets have a real meaningful trajectory advantage that would probably be more usefull where I hunt - at least 99% of the time anyways.

Thanks again for the ideas.

I am having the same testosterone vs rational thinking conversation with my self. Hawk bullets has a 250 gr round tip bullet they told me would stabilize in my 12 twist .300 Jarrett. There are 275 gr, and Hawk's 300 gr, 338 bullets available too. Stompers, but the 416 and 458 stomp even harder. What to do, what to do? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Once you shoot something out of an actual big-bore with a flat-nosed bullet of 300+gr. you will then know why. Do you want stopping power or not?

2muchgun,

I hear ya' - but I'd doubt it would look any different than watching what 220 grain Noslers or 200 grain Barne's "X's" would do out of my 30-06. Everything I've ever shot with either was dead in it's tracks - with total penetration. I just don't know how you can improve on that - plus shots up to close to 400 yards haven't been too much to ask of that particular combo.
The don't get "deader than dead", and they can't die quicker than "in their tracks". Just my experience so far.

BCBrian

An old /06 is hard to beat ..

I wish i had hung on to my .308 swage die set ..10 deg to a flat point .. But your right dead is dead..

This should be ideal for what you want.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/448288/an/0/page/0#448288

Brian:

I have had a lot of good experience with the Model 95 (.30-06). I've taken pretty much eveything from duiker to eland with it. I consider it to be tough and reliable and, with a good receiver sight, is deadly accurate. It is also fast and well balanced. IMHO a great rifle.

For a really hard hitting gun, I would personally think the Model 95 in 405 Winchester would be an excellent choice. It's a cartridge with a good track record on both sides of the pond. Also, with the high quality bullets available today, it should be even better than is was many years ago when people used it to take the Big Six (I include hippo).

BTW, Z-Hat in Casper, WY has rebarreled a few Model 95s in 375 and 411 Hawk for Ed Stevenson (Sheep River Hunting in Alaska). Ed says in an article (Rifle or Handloader, I can't remember which) that he and his son use the Model 95 exclusively, and as a stopping rifle for bear, he says it cannot be beat.

That said, I think the BLR is an excellent quality rifle too, and with a slightly stronger action than the 95. If you ever cook up your 416 on the Browning action, I will be paying attention!

Garrett ammo has an interesting article comparing the 45-70 to the 458. Surprise...

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp

Since I own a BLR .300 WSM I will give my humble opinion. With the right ammo (Garret or Buffalo Bore) the Marlin 45/70 will drill a bear through his skull and come out his a$$. The .300 WSM bullet will break up long before that.

Horses and the 45/70 go together. MV out!

I agree. Most of my centerfire hunting is done with .270 WSM and .308 Win. I love these cartridges and rifles and wouldn't hesitate to use one or the other on anything in North America short of bison and the great bears. But if I needed to stop something with teeth and claws DRT, I'd use one of my big bores. I have a couple 1886's chambered in .45-70, and it's only a matter of time before I pick up a Marlin 1895G. For rapid neutralization of dangerous game, you want big, deep-penetrating bullets, and the ability to make multiple hits very quickly. A big-bore lever gun seems to be the ideal solution to this question. The 1895G is the fastest big bore I've tried, with heavy loads. I would take it over either of my 1886's, actually.

I had the opportunity last summer to fire an 1895G at a firearms class where I wanted to demonstrate the value of a strong stance in recoiling a hard-kicking gun. One of my friends asked if I wanted to use his 1895G, which he had loaded with Garrett Hammerheads, I think the 420 gr loads. I was amazed to find that I could put 4 rounds into the black of a bullseye target at 25 yards in under 3 seconds. The porting, stock design, and recoil pad of this little gun make it very, very controllable. Muzzle rise is almost nil, which is something you need if you're shooting at a charging animal. My friend's rifle was set up with a 1-4X Leuopold, which I think is sensible, but I shoot with both eyes open. If you shoot with your nondominant eye closed, a scope is probably not a good idea for a dangerous game rifle.

IIRC, Phil Shoemaker wrote about the 1895G a few years back as being one of his favorite backup guns when he's guiding sports on coastal brown bears. That's a pretty big endorsement, in my book.

While these guys beat on the tub and dance around the fire, get a Winchester 95 in 405. Any critter within a six week walk of your horse will drop dead if you do your part.
Jim

Careful there Pete, theres a bunch of them here , that think the 405 is just kid stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Always like to see another 95/405 junkie. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Whichever you can shoot the best with.......

Oh, No! You mean I have to go out and buy a horse? And does the little lever under the action on my #1 qualify as a lever action? I mean, the lever activates the thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kid's stuff, huh? Try one of my 300 gr Barnes X handloads chronied at 2350 -- better yet, give it to one of your kids to try. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I love my guidegun and have owned BLR's in the past. Why put all that money into a rifle that looks like an ugly pregnant guppy when one could have all the power needed in a Marlin Guide Gun??

Shootist
Nahh you don't have to buy a horse but having one is nice to carry the ammo.
The only other qualification required for a rifle to be a lever action is...it should be able to have three or more rounds in the magazine.
Jim

The Marlin Guide Gun (nor any other Marlin) is no beauty queen either, but they are reliable. I wish the .45-70 Cowboy came in a 16 1/2 barreled model.

Swampman1 i can understand beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the lines of a guidegun are much nicer than that bloated reciever of the BLR of which i used to own. On that note though, the BLR is a very accurate handy firearm. I just couldn't get used to the asthetics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now Pete . . . . or Jim . . . . .

Does the "magazine" that you refer to have to be an INTERNAL magazine, or can I carry them external but still attached to the firearm? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And did you use the number three to beat the BLR out of the running? I think their 450 Marlin only holds 2 in the mag.

Now Pete . . . . or Jim . . . . .

Does the "magazine" that you refer to have to be an INTERNAL magazine, or can I carry them external but still attached to the firearm? And did you use the number three to beat the BLR out of the running? I think their 450 Marlin only holds 2 in the mag.

Shootist.
I'm a purest, the BLR doesn't even show as a blip on my lever action radar. Marlin and Winchester,

If you actuating the lever cocks the hammer, ejects a spent case and moves a fresh cartridge into the chamber without removing one hand from the forearm and the other from the lever, then it's a lever.

Jim

BC If you do a search on John Linebaugh (sp?) and his seminars a lot of good information has come out of his seminars. He holds a couple a year one will be in Oklahoma and one in Wyoming this year. But there is a lot of shooting and experimenting and seperating fact from fiction as it were. If a guy hasn't experimented with good Hard Casts at moderate velocities he will be shocked at the penetration. A 325 gr HC 44Mag will penetrate both shoulders of a full grown moose, or on a frontal shoot penetrate the majority of the body. There is a lot of good 45-70 hard cast out there. For the $ I can't imagine much doing more than the 45-70 with a good hard cast. I personally use the 430 grain Buffalo Bore's but as you are aware you can certainly go heavier if you want. I am going to stay out of the fray regarding the rest of this.

I recently tested my 458 LOTT loaded fairly mild to about 1700fps,with those 405 remington bullets many of you guys use against a 470 grain lyman hard cast gas check design,at the same velocity on a back stop of loosely stacked wet drywall stacked two feet thick, the hard cast zip thru, the jacketed bullets came apart, while not proving much, as I seldom need to kill attacking dry wall, Ive use the same hard cast bullets on hogs and never found one that failed to exit

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000152640671

Get the Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF, I have one reworked by Fred Zeglin who owns Z-HAT and it is the BEST FIREARM I have ever owned.

Another vote for the Marlin in 45-70. Not the 450...that's just around to appease the non-reloaders and the lawyers that think people haven't got wit enough to keep Garrett ammunition out of their Trapdoors! I just convinced a buddy that he needed to trade up from his 30-30 to a 22" 1895 in 45-70 for moose hunting (trust me, he did). If I was back in horse and grizz country you can bet your boots I'd be adding a Guide Gun to my 45-70 arsenal...the 26" barrel on my cowboy is too long for that purpose. Mind you, I've been tempted to pick up a stainless Guide Gun and have the 45 barrel swapped out for a 50-110, just for something different.

Show me one the 45-70 can't match or beat!

45-70 and less than $500!!!

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Interesting discussion. I'm siding with the .45-70 as a very practical solution and there is no difference between the .450 Marlin and the "heavy" .45-70 loads other than the belt.

First, for the oldster there is factory fodder from "plinkers" to the niche +p stuff pushing very serious bullets at the 1800-2000 fps range. Heck, look at the Hornaday ballistics for the 450/400 an old African number; this cartridge pushes a 400-gr at about 2100 fps and the .404 Jeffry is only a trifle faster in its original loading. Not a great deal different from the heavy .45-70 loads. The old .45 has been proven in penetration tests "in vitro" and "in vivo" (buff, the big bears,etc.) and it has the diameter and mass in its bullets like those African numbers to be classified as a stopper within reason.

458 Win who posts here uses the .45-70 among others and if anyone is familiar with what it takes to be a stopper he should be.

For a "A scope-less lever action that I could throw up in a flash for a close shot", nothing - absolutely nothing - handles better that a Model 71. The stock was designed by Townsend Whelen for shooting with open sights and it comes up instantly, with the barrel pointing where you are looking, just like a fine shotgun. Original Winchesters are collector's items but Browning reproductions are still available.

Since you specify a CLOSE shot there is no point in going for the flat shooting that is the main advantage of a 300 mag. Trade some velocity and BC for the cross sectional area and heavy bullet offered by a 45 caliber or larger gun.

Since the original post mentioned 50 Alaskan I assume the OP handloads. If that's the case crank up some 250 grain 348s. Or take your pick from the 45 or 50 Alaskan.

Some quotes about the 50 Alaskan:

"I never recovered a bullet from a bear or moose no matter what angle the animal was shot at."

"a fearsome penetrator of bone and tissue"

Both from the article on the 50 Alaskan in BIG BORE RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES from Wolfe Publishing.

The only drawback to the 50 would be the the recoil might be awkward firing from horesback. In that case you might consider the 348 or 45 Alaskan.

I'm a 45/70 fan but the most powerful Levergun is the 338 Win. in a BLR...which can be converted to a 416 Tayor....

45-70 in marlin guide gun

Why do so many people insist that only a CRF bolt action is suitable for dangerous game, but agree that a guide gun would be OK for defense against bears. Mine will not chamber a cartridge unless it's in a reasonably vertical position. Otherwise the feed ramp will fall into the ejection port and block a cartridge from being fed. I'm not saying that's a big deal to me, but isn't that the objection to PF bolt actions?

I would Recommend a Savage 99 in 375
Steve

+1

+1 on the 375 Win in the Model 99. Want to sell me yours?

Well, I think the 45-70 is a grand old warrior. Got three 1886s in 45-70. However, in the field, on real tuff game, the Model 71 and the 348 caliber is the most effective killing combination I have used. Paper ballistics just don't tell the story. It's bad to the bone. Moose drop like they are struck by lightning! Top of the food chain in lever guns.

Rem 405 - 1800 fps - 125 yards



300 Speer HP - 2100 fps - 40 yards



350 Speer - 2000 fps - 20 yards



350 North Fork - 246 yards

All 45-70, all with Ruger #1, but all except for the 350 Speer load could have been safely fired in a Marlin.

The 45-70 works.

Of course, where you hit 'em, not with what, matters most:



170 Core-Lokt - 2000 fps- 80 yards (30 WCF)

hey guys new to the sight. imhop i have to go with winchester 95 in 405 loaded with 300gr barnesX

I certainly don't have vast amounts of experiance hunting really big game, but my 1895 405 win sure puts big holes in critters. I have had full length penetration of a whitetail (300gr hornady stopped under neck skin below ear). After examining a 300lb blk bear, my guide just asked "what the *ell did you shoot him with?"

My Browning 71 when loaded with 250gr Hawks is a heck of a rifle.

I would feel very confident with either rifle in almost any modest range situation.