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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 Likes: 1 |
Out of context.....while we are all fond of the pre-64s, I'm glad that FN has finally built a MOA out of the box rifle.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983 919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
"As the fish ignores the ineptly presented artificial, Swampman prepares to cast again"....
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162 |
The FW is an inch to inch and a half for three shots with me shooting it. Unless things have changed that is what WBY gurantees. Ummm, small correction. Depends on the model. The sub-MOA model is guaranteed to group an inch or less. Now back to the beer and popcorn... this has been a fun and informative thread to watch with the exception of the recent appearance of the village idiot. I'm sure we can all ignore and continue with what has been a mostly civil and entertaining discussion. Thanks for the correction. I forgot about the SUB-MOA. But, arn't the SUB-MOA just those few that were found to shoot better then the rest? In other words not purpose built to shoot that well. Anyway that is what I have read in some magazines. From what I've been told, the sub-MOA models weren't purpose-built to shoot better than the rest. They're plucked out of the production line when testing reveals them to shoot sub-MOA and given an engraved floorplate. However, not all sub-MOA shooters are chosen for that treatment, so it's common to get a regular model that also shoots sub-MOA. I own two regular models and one sub-MOA. They all shoot sub-MOA groups.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something, make it a hole to remember.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
The barrels were broached(cut),stress free and very accurate. Usually when it is said rifling is broached that means the grooves were all cut in one pass with a gang broach like this: When it is said rifling is cut we're usually talking about the machining being done one groove at a time, and with many lighter passes of a hook cutter like this: Of course, they are both cutting mechanisms. Which did Winchester use? "Starting with the general shape from the drop forginging, the outside diameter wa staightened by hand with 15 pound hammers on anvils. From this step,they were mounted on a lathe,their high spots chalked and turned to round. Next the barrels were deep hole drilled from chamber end to muzzle..... Following drilling,they underwent anothet straightening procedure with control intended for the inside diameter.For this process, ther were several turning,grinding and straightening operations which usually guaranteed concentricity. With this established,the bore diameter was next reamed. Rifling was performed after reaming. Each groove was cut individually by the "hook" method whereby a rifling head with a single cutter blade was pulled from muzzle to butt.The head was so spring loaded that itwould make gradual cuttings,removing fine chips from each groove........ After rifling the bores were lapped. A steel rod with the appropriate twist at one end was inserted in the bore and cadmium lead was poured around it.....an operator then pulled the rod back and forth,lubricating the bore with carborundum oil. This technique removed burrs and left a glasslike finish in the bore. Once finished to this state the barrels were inspected...... Barrels which survived inspection were then belt polished in the barrel polishing shop..... After this they were chambered. This took three to seven tools depending on the caliber....when thechambers were complete,they were still sightly undersized to allow for final headspacing.... In 1955 the hook rifling system was supplemented with the "broach rifling" process.The former method was retained for the target styles, the Custom Shop and the Model Shop. The new operation was was applied to the remaining production styles. The advantage of broach rifling was time savings as all grooves were were cut with a "one pull" operation........ "The Rifleman's Rifle"...Rule;pgs 53 and 54. I left out a lot of steps in polishing and finish and stamping.This was the barrels....we won't even discuss the receivers and final assembly..... Those who know WTF they are talking about,who have actually shot rifles made before and after 1955( instead of speculating and guessing about it) will know that the barrels made by both methods are easily MOA or sub MOA barrels..I know this because I have shot many examples of both in a variety of calibers. The hand lapping that the later barrels did not get was accomplished by about 100-200 rounds of use. I took a 1963 270 recently that had been shot little, if at all...first trip to the range and it shot sub MOA to 300 yards.It will hang with any M70 made by anyone, including FN I suspect that any pre 64 M70 barrel made by either method saw more TLC tha any 1000 barrels built by anyone else. Swampy go get some and actually shoot them......quit posting BS. It's unbecoming.....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,884 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,884 Likes: 10 |
Thanks Bob.
I believe Bar-Sto broaches their barrels. I haven't followed handguns closely in a while, but they were considered a primo barrel for a build.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Pre-64 Model 70...all original 375 H&H 275 BBC at 100 yds 2800 FPS...so much for the lack of accuracy from a Pre-64...my other calibers 270,264,and 30-06 have done just as well..all original rifles with hunting hand loads.. Swampy.....Look at the target above,and read OU76's comments...What part of this is it that you don't understand? I have seen/done precisely the same thing with many other pre 64's...... And the SC M70's as well,just not so many. Classic? Sometimes.....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 96
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 96 |
Bob,
All this agonizing over how good pre-64's are is really moot. If a rifle feels like a "companion" instead of a "tool" it will usually get pulled from the gun cabinet to make the hunt and leave some more accurate "tools" behind.
I'm guessing more guys have and will keep on searching for pre-64's ahead of the more modern renditions of rifle makes when looking for a "companion", if resale and availability on the used rack are any indication.
Don't really care if my 1954 featherweight is superior or not, it and a old Sako Forester give me a feeling the others can't quite touch........
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,632 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,632 Likes: 2 |
Bob: You are wasting your time with that inbred swamp moron. His response to that target will be the same as when I posted some "oh those are faked from ten yards." He is a total deer ass-shooting buffoon who can't even figure out how to properly put a sling on a rifle. jorge
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
jorg: I know he's baiting us and I've called swampy on it before..I'm just having some fun..... I couldn't go to the range today so figured I'd do this instead Gary: I agree; you are correct....just like to post some of this stuff so the younger guys don't get the notion that great rifles came into being within the last year ...again, just enjoying myself.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,813 |
Not even sure Swampy could catch a Montana high-country Cutthroat that hasn't seen anything float by in awhile.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,561
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,561 |
Its reminiscent of Oldman's tirades about Barnes bullets and Lee24's SC 375
Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened. - Winston Churchill-
NRA Endowment Life Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
I have been watching this and gave my opinion more than once but what I see from a few, is the name calling and stud like actions towards Swampman who has not "once" called anyone a name unlike some...
So,who is more grown up?
Just because his opinion is different and I assume he believes it,why the nasty stuff and name calling?
Atleast Bob can address it without name calling and just facts..Others ignore but then comes macho ......with nuttin but trash talk.
Ain't right.
Jayco
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749 |
Logcutter, Nobody like liars. Swampman from time to time starts making up BS about different gun brands etc. to stir up crap and bring attention to himself.
I can see that if you hadn't been through some of his BS before you might look at 1 thread and not notice the trolling about for attention that have gone on, nor seen the lies etc..
Keep watching and reading and you'll probably end up seeing what me mean.
I will agree that he doesn't get as nasty or obscene as certain other posters have and that might be the one thing to his favor..................DJ
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
You are wasting your time with that inbred swamp moron. Pretty grown up chit right there! Jayco
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,162 |
Everyone posting about Swampy is allowing themselves (and the topic)to be diverted and rewarding the behavior.
C'mon guys. I know (most of) you are smarter than that.
We've talked about gas handling, triggers, stocks... what about barrels? Anyone care to contrast pre-64 barrels with the new ones?
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something, make it a hole to remember.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,632 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,632 Likes: 2 |
You are wasting your time with that inbred swamp moron. Pretty grown up chit right there! Jayco Great, getting called on the carpet by the maturity police. Then again my dad's always told me I never grew up...Oh and Swampsmell is still a moron...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,749 |
Why can't we all just get along? Sniff Sniff ...............dj
Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Bob,
All this agonizing over how good pre-64's are is really moot. If a rifle feels like a "companion" instead of a "tool" it will usually get pulled from the gun cabinet to make the hunt and leave some more accurate "tools" behind.
I'm guessing more guys have and will keep on searching for pre-64's ahead of the more modern renditions of rifle makes when looking for a "companion", if resale and availability on the used rack are any indication.
Don't really care if my 1954 featherweight is superior or not, it and a old Sako Forester give me a feeling the others can't quite touch........
GWood, you are making perfect sense or my brain isn't working right yet after spending all day out in 14 degree weather shooting my rimfires . I love the pre 64's, but when it comes to what to take to deer camp the BSA model D gets the nod. Something about the 1917 enfield action that I just can't shake. Probably because I grew up using one and it brings back good memories. That or because it shoots better than just about anything I have. I like accurate rifles because it gives you confidence, nice too because you can't blame it on the equipment if the shot is ever botched . My vote for the "poor mans pre-64" :
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 96
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 96 |
If being the most accurate or most rugged or lightest, wearing the best looking McMillan was the only criteria for chosing one's rifle, I wouldn't see so many of them for sale in the classifieds.
Just sayin.............
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,179 Likes: 19 |
Pre-64 Model 70...all original 375 H&H 275 BBC at 100 yds 2800 FPS...so much for the lack of accuracy from a Pre-64...my other calibers 270,264,and 30-06 have done just as well..all original rifles with hunting hand loads.. Swampy.....Look at the target above,and read OU76's comments...What part of this is it that you don't understand? I have seen/done precisely the same thing with many other pre 64's...... And the SC M70's as well,just not so many. Classic? Sometimes..... I like show and tell time around here, especially when it is targets of how capable our pre64's are: First time I ever shot a group with my standard pre-64 (1951) 30-06. First time I saw the rifle, took pictures with my phone at some guys messy shop. Its original stock/original sling, all correct with steel butt plate. It's hunting stock that I bedded. How it looks now in it's "hunting" stock.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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